That Hispanic IQ again

Posted by Cathal Copeland on December 29, 2004, 01:43 PM | #

Oh dear,

I first misread the title as:

“That Hispanic IQ gain”

and hoped for some good news in this dreary domain. But no, the misery continues.

You write:

“So my belief is that if the children of the Hispanics could be got into good schools and put into a in a good environment generally, they would eventually merge into the American mainstream.”

Well, transracial adoption studies might be a useful kind of ‘natural experiment’ to test the truth or falsehood of this belief. As far as I know, such studies haven’t come up with very optimistic outcomes for blacks (virtually no impact on adult IQ, don’t know about impact on the crime rate).

Must do a bit of Google-researching and see if I can come up with anything ..

Posted by jonjayray on December 29, 2004, 02:54 PM | #

My basic thesis is of course that Hispanics are different from blacks

Posted by Marc on December 29, 2004, 05:29 PM | #

Just a few quick points:

I don’t know too much about the Aztecs and the Mayans but, were they really that advanced, or were they just advanced relative to other Native Americans?  Did their acheivements rank with the Romans, the Egyptians, the Persians, the Greeks, etc...? 

Also, if I recall correctly there was a huge population drop in the New World following the arrival of the Europeans due to disease.  I think that the educated city-dwellers among the Aztecs certainly would have borne the brunt of this.  Additionally, there was a significant infusion of Spanish genes, and who knows if the conquistadors were Spain’s best and brightest - or genetic flotsam that found its way ashore in MesoAmerica? 

Enough has changed in the Mexican gene pool to suggest that modern Mexicans *may* not have necessarily inherited the genes that compelled their ancestors to build an empire.

Posted by JRM on December 29, 2004, 06:27 PM | #

“But to get to the meat of the matter: My doubts about the mean Hispanic IQ are based on genetics and history. As we know, Amerindians are Asians racially. And Asians are the brightest large human population. The Amerindians HAVE been separated from other Asians for a long time but the idea that selective pressures were less in the Americas than in Asia seems unlikely to me. There was clearly plenty of competition between rival Amerindian nations. So the remarkable achievements of the Meso-American civilizations (Aztecs, Toltecs, Incas etc.) were just what I would expect of their genetics. And those are still the genetics in them today. So I think that the depressed actual achievements are cultural. Don’t forget that only two thirds of the variance in IQ is genetic. The remaining third can make a lot of difference. “

Cochran and Harpending postulate that the Askenazi IQ difference, one SD above the European norm, was produced in the last thousand years.  That time frame is a tenth of the separation time of Amerindians and their Central Asian ancestors. 
http://www.webmonkey.ws/flillip.php?url=http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002588.html

Rushton’s theory is cold weather climates are predictable but difficult to survive in.  This selects for people who can plan ahead.  That is, selects for intelligence.  Presumably, when high IQ northeners go south to live, they don’t lose their intelligence.  But the selection pressure has stopped.
http://www.webmonkey.ws/flillip.php?url=http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002519.html

Also, be careful with the word “Hispanic”.  There are differences between Cuban and Mexican immigrants.
JRM

Posted by razib on December 29, 2004, 10:13 PM | #

one thing to note, mexican migration to the united states does not include the substantial middle class, rather, it is skewed toward the peasantry.

Posted by ben tillman on December 29, 2004, 11:23 PM | #

Additionally, there was a significant infusion of Spanish genes...

Judging from the Mexican faces I see in Texas, the Spanish genetic influence is outweighed by the Sephardic Jewish influence.

Posted by John Ray on December 30, 2004, 01:47 AM | #

“Judging from the Mexican faces I see in Texas, the Spanish genetic influence is outweighed by the Sephardic Jewish influence.”

I presume that’s a joke but the Sephardim DID leave a mark on Spanish genes of course—Maranos and all that

Posted by wintermute on December 30, 2004, 02:30 AM | #

I presume that’s a joke but the Sephardim DID leave a mark on Spanish genes of course—Maranos and all that

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002111216_heritage07.html

Greenspan, whose Family Tree DNA does the testing for Sanchez’s project, said there had been a surge of interest in genealogy among people looking for Jewish connections.

“We believe a fairly high percentage of first families [arriving] in New Mexico were nominally Catholic, but their secret religion was Judaism,” he said. ”We are finding between 10 percent and 15 percent of men living in New Mexico or south Texas or northern Mexico have a Y chromosome that tracks back to the Middle East.”

Posted by ben tillman on December 30, 2004, 02:55 AM | #

I’m not making any claims regarding Mexicans in California; I’m simply reporting my observations from the field, in Texas.  These observations comport with the historical record.

http://www.cryptojews.com/TexasMexicanSecret.html

Here’s how we know that many Tex-Mex Hispanics today are of Jewish ancestry.  It’s a well accepted fact that the founding families of Monterrey and the nearby Mexican border area, “Nuevo Reyno de Leon” are of Sephardic Jewish origin.  If we go back to the Diccionario Porrua de Historia Geografia y Biografia, it states that Luis de Carvajal y de a Cucva brought a shipload of Jews to settle his Mexican colony - with some Jews being converts to Catholicism from Judaism and others “openly addicted to their (Jewish) doctrine”.
Seymour Liebman, a scholar on Mexican colonial secret Jews, in his book “Jews in New Spain”, explained why Jews settled in areas far away from Mexico City in order to escape the long arm of the Inquisition in the sixteenth century.

Historical exposure to and intermarriage with Sephardic secret Jews has occurred in the parts of Mexico that were “safer havens” for secret Jewish settlement.  The safest haven was Southern Texas and the surrounding Mexican border area.

Posted by wintermute on December 30, 2004, 04:00 AM | #

So my belief is that if the children of the Hispanics could be got into good schools and put into a good environment generally, they would eventually merge into the American mainstream.

As they say - LOL.

It strikes me as odd that a contemporary conservative blog, majorityrights, should be peddling failed solutions and false promises first advanced by the Left over 30 years ago.

It’s even worse that this is done under the false premises of acting in the favor of the majority - which we may assume refers to Whites - which Jon Jay Ray doesn’t mind seeing biologically and culturally obliterated by Mexicans, or Britons superseded by a “dark skinned element”, while he’s busy replacing his poorer relations in Australia with “polite Indians”.

Diversity is our greatest strength, JJR tells us, then adds quickly - the Queen believes this, too.

As a White man who will not see his Race or Civilization destroyed by far-Left monstrosities like yourself, let me be the first to nominate both you and Liz and for the guillotine. I don’t see why anyone should agitate against Jews when agile social seekers like yourself are obviously the source of most of the damage, as you present their culture-destroying rot under the more palatable name of “conservatism”.

To review, what is being offered as “conservatism” and ”majority rights” by the estimable Jon Jay Ray?

1)Diversity is Strength.

2)Replace Austalians with Indians.

3)Replace Americans with Mexicans and resultant Mestizos

4)Recognize the hopelessness of the American situation: the “unlikelyhood” of “Hispanic decline”.

5)Recognize the hopelessness of UK decline: “The English egg” has “thoroughly scrambled” and “the dark-skinned population is not going to go away”.

6)Sell rivers of blood, race-replacement, and intermarriage under the name “assimilation”, as the “solution” to our problems.

Finally,

7)Eject minorities which are harmful to the interests of Jews: “bad” Arab Muslims

It’s a fine plan, JJR, but you must tell me this: why call it “conservatism” or “majorityrights”, when its true name, race war against Whites, is so much more descriptive?

Are you trying to deceive someone?

Posted by wintermute on December 30, 2004, 04:00 AM | #

I may well be wrong but given the unlikelihood that the Hispanic population of the USA will ever decline, all Americans should hope that I am right.

You will forgive me, but I will not be hoping that you are right, not least because your statement is false on its face.

It’s very clever of you to explain to Whites that there is no hope whatsoever for their own nations, or the preservation of their race, but you have not established your bona fides for me: I do not regard you as a trustworthy source. In fact, I don’t regard you as a conservative at all, a conclusion supported by your peddling of far left nostrums of some antiquity, along with your smelly ideologies of race and culture denial. You’re no better than a Bolshevik, J, though the Bolshevik in most cases would be more forthcoming about what he actually is.

Assuming that the tide will not be turned, why not face facts rather than hope in lies which have already been discredited? Other alternatives, besides your far-Left multiracial utopianism, do present themselves.

First of all, there is the adoption of non-Western social organization, where a single polity is inhabited by more or less non porous ethnic and religious groups. Without massive Federal intervention, this would certainly have already been seen in the US years ago. Also, peaceful partition which is always present as an alternative when the inevitable problems of one or more races per polity show up, as they always will.

Why not simply give the Mexicans the Aztlan states, which are at the root of our land dispute, and decouple from them as a people? Likewise, the South could be given outright to Blacks, and then Whites would be free - for the most part - to go their own seperate ways. So the Monroe doctrine was a failure and Florida goes back to Spain via South America. Who really cares?

Remember, the mechanism that has kept the discussion of race silent in the United States - massive, sustained, continual White Flight - is now coming to an end. It is hardly the case, as you suggest, that we have no options.

Good discussion here: http://home.ddc.net/ygg/wn/index.htm

Finally, may I suggest, as you find the company of Indians so delightful, that you spare us the difficulty of replacing the existing population of Australia, and simply remove yourself? I cannot speak for the Subcontinent, but the Anglosphere would be immeasurably improved.

Posted by John Ray on December 30, 2004, 05:02 AM | #

Wintermute seems to think that abuse and accusations win arguments.  He will remain marginal as long as he does that.  I abuse no-one.  I just work from the facts.  The info about the Jewish element in Mexico was interesting, though.

I see no sign of political will in the USA or the UK to do much about immigration of difficult populations so abuse your politicians, not me.  I just report what I see.

And as a contented citizen of a country that DOES control its immigration, I do think Americans and Brits could learn a lot from Oz.

Nonetheless, I think the USA and UK will most likely end up with a Brazilian solution—with the genetically and culturally superior groups having their own enclaves and preserving their identity and capacities that way.  Nobody ever seems to have the heart to “ship dem niggers back”

Posted by John Ray on December 30, 2004, 05:04 AM | #

Even the Liberian exercise was voluntary

Posted by John Ray on December 30, 2004, 05:29 AM | #

Reply to JRM

“Cochran and Harpending postulate that the Askenazi IQ difference, one SD above the European norm, was produced in the last thousand years.  That time frame is a tenth of the separation time of Amerindians and their Central Asian ancestors. 
http://www.webmonkey.ws/flillip.php?url=http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002588.html

Rushton’s theory is cold weather climates are predictable but difficult to survive in.  This selects for people who can plan ahead.  That is, selects for intelligence.  Presumably, when high IQ northeners go south to live, they don’t lose their intelligence.  But the selection pressure has stopped.
http://www.webmonkey.ws/flillip.php?url=http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002519.html

Also, be careful with the word “Hispanic”.  There are differences between Cuban and Mexican immigrants.”

The cold weather theory is of course conventional but I think it is only a subset of the truth.  I think a heavily challenged population IN ANY WAY is improved

The mesoamericans are of course the chief challenge to the climate theory.  In the Americas, civilization arose in the tropics, not the cold extremes.

I think the Melanesians are an exception too.  I seem to recollect from my time in the Australian Army that their IQ scores were good.  And THEIR challenge is topographical (New Guinea is very mountainous)

And selection pressure has never been “stopped” —changed or reduced only

Yes.  I would like to see “Hispanic” statistics broken down by race.  Cubans and Mexicans are obviously very different.  My frame of reference is principally L.A.—where I have done research

Posted by Svigor on December 30, 2004, 07:14 AM | #

I see no sign of political will in the USA or the UK to do much about immigration of difficult populations so abuse your politicians, not me.  I just report what I see.
That’s the interesting bit about wills - they’re free to change.

How can a conservative contributer to a blog like this pretend that the lack of white ethnic consciousness exists in a vacuum?  White Americans didn’t spontaneously decide to become spineless, atomized wusses vis-a-vis their ethnic interests, they were browbeaten and lied into doing so by 60 years of relentless propaganda.

The mesoamericans are of course the chief challenge to the climate theory.  In the Americas, civilization arose in the tropics, not the cold extremes.
Said challenge isn’t unique - have you forgotten the Middle East?

Posted by wintermute on December 30, 2004, 07:41 AM | #

White Americans didn’t spontaneously decide to become spineless, atomized wusses vis-a-vis their ethnic interests, they were browbeaten and lied into doing so by 60 years of relentless propaganda.

I would add that such propaganda was a thousand times more convincing, as it came from, or was seconded by, White “conservatives”, a process that is quite advanced by the current day, as is proven by the the Republican Party, the National Review, Free Republic, Fox News, etc. 

You can’t even post articles from vdare.com at Free Republic. National Review has had a moratorium on immigration stories for ten years now. Fox News still hasn’t come clean on the Israeli spying reports they buried.

Without an agent on the inside the house, our opponents could not have prevailed.

Posted by ben tillman on December 30, 2004, 06:06 PM | #

It seems to me that the Asian origins of the “Hispanics”—really Amerindians—and their historically recent achievements in building notable civilizations without outside input (the Aztec, Toltec, Olmec and other empires) do NOT suggest an unusually disadvantaging gene pool.  So if it’s not their gene pool that is causing their low IQ scores, what is it?

Well, it’s a bit of a leap to conclude that the current gene pool is the same as the earlier one, but this is an interesting question.  I have not arrived at a satisfactory answer.

I think that what has happened is that a poorly-educated rural population has arrived in the USA only to be thrown into a behavioral sink, the behavioural sink of America’s predominantly black underclass.  Because of their lack of skills, education and urban (particularly scholarly) culture the immigrants have from the beginning found only low-paid manual work and thus been forced to live very cheaply.  And living cheaply has meant by and large living in predominantly black slums.

There is more segregation than you seem to think.  Remember—most Mexicans arrive in this country unable to speak English.  That severely limits their ability to pick up cultural memes from blacks in their vicinity.  Have you had a chance to observe Mexicans in the United States?  (I gather that you are an Australian.)

Posted by Marc on January 01, 2005, 09:11 AM | #

I have to agree with wintermute.  When I come onto a blog called majority rights I’m not expecting to hear someone stumping for Mexican immigrants.  I expect to see a blog dedicated to my right to live in a country that I recognize as home.  I no longer recognize my neighborhood or my country.  The people who live here are foreign to me.  They do not share my language or my culture.  Frankly, I don’t think I should have to put up with it.

Incidentally, I also have the right to go to sleep at night reasonably sure that my people will continue into the next generation, and the next.  Instead, when I extrapolate from present trends, I see Europeans going extinct everywhere, and pro-immigrationists will only further that process if they get their way.  I don’t want to come onto a blog called majority rights and listen to someone propose the gradual destruction of my people.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on January 01, 2005, 04:51 PM | #

Marc, God bless you for that post just above!  God bless you for it.  That’s all I can say.

Posted by John S Bolton on January 03, 2005, 01:33 AM | #

The Lynn and Vanhanen collection of testing data indicates an average central american IQ of around 85. Environmental improvements might give them a two point reduction of the 15 point gap with the majority that they would start with. If one believes in assimilation, how can one not prefer each degree of pre-assimilation, and in terms of language in particular. Immigration of lower income populations involves aggression on the citizenry in the welfare societies of today; therefore, the majority has every right to turn it away.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on January 03, 2005, 03:32 AM | #

“Immigration of lower income populations involves aggression on the citizenry in the welfare societies of today; therefore, the majority has every right to turn it away.” (—John Bolton)

Immigration in the massive numbers we’re seeing in the U.S. isn’t properly called “immigration” but population transfer or outright race-replacment.  That’s the problem:  we’re being forced to submit to massive racially-incompatible incoming population transfers, then slandered with name-calling if we don’t treat what’s going on as some sort of reasonable, limited, compatible, completely benign and harmless “immigration” policy such as we had prior to the 1965 race-replacement bill.

Posted by Hidalgo on February 12, 2006, 11:50 PM | #

In reference to the cretins Lynn and the Finn, I would not place one iota of confidence in their data. For example, the Cuba IQ of 85 originates from a sinlge Florida study soon after Cuban refugees arrived fleeing castro, so that language difficulties, as in the case of immigrants arriving on American shores early in the last century, probably tainted the results significantly.  What if their study had been conducted in 800 BC, how would the Northern Europeans have fared in their wealth? Would then a negative correlation between IQ and wealth have been found?

Posted by Eva on July 03, 2006, 11:00 PM | #

Hello, I just feel like saying that I’m an 18 year old hispanic girl. I was born and raised in the Dom. Rep. and came here to the US to study. It’s funny what the first article said about the environment having to do much with the IQ but here I am to say that was raised in a household where studies were always first. I’m here, actually, because to my parents,my education is still first but for some odd reason I still feel like I’m behind everyone in my classes. It’s not because of the time I put into it or how hard I try, which left me with the conclusion that it must be my genes. Just felt like sharing my fustration. Thanks

Posted by Svyatoslav Igorevich on July 04, 2006, 12:50 AM | #

Hidalgo, most modern IQ studies account for language and culture differences.

You say “probably,” but I’ll bet you can hunt down the truth about the test of Cubans.  It was some time ago, so maybe you’re right.  All the more reason to test Cubans now...oh, wait, they’re run by a Communist dictatorship and we can’t test them!  Not that the western establishment would do anything but discourage such tests, even if they were a possibility, mind you…

That’s the leftist modus operadi on this issue: assert equality, move to block testing the assertion.  Rinse and repeat.

Posted by Svyatoslav Igorevich on July 04, 2006, 12:53 AM | #

Eva, thrusting different groups into the same space is a recipe for envy, contempt, frustration, mistrust and, inevitably, increased government powers to suppress conflict.

Posted by ben tillman on July 04, 2006, 03:22 AM | #

Eva, I don’t think the term Hispanic is very useful, as it encompasses Africans, Europeans, Amerindians, Sephardic Jews, and even East Indians, as well as various combinations of those ancestries—as long as they speak Spanish.  You are right that intelligence is largely genetic, but that is no reason to stop trying to maximize your potential, whatever it may be.

Posted by Al Ross on July 04, 2006, 04:21 AM | #

I like the nickname Hidalgo, denoting as it does, a Spanish gentleman whose blood has not been polluted by the Moorish interlopers.