Book review of “Breeding between the Lines” by Alon Ziv

This is a book review of “Breeding between the lines: Why interracial people are healthier and more attractive,” by Alon Ziv, 184 pp., Barricade Books, 2006, ISBN: 1569803064. My preliminary impression that the book most likely doesn’t have decent data in it is confirmed.

The book is written for a lay readership, and with the main text occupying about 160 pages, it can be read within a few hours.

Sloppy work: errors and omissions

Alon Ziv appears to have been working on the main idea of the book for a couple of years, but his book is full of sloppiness and naïve arguments, which is curious given the apparent time he has spent perusing the literature and also that he appears to have an adequate background in the biological sciences. I will provide some illustrative examples.

Ziv provides a primer on evolution that includes statements such as:

  • Asexual people are like slow Cheetahs – they die out.
  • We have evolved to avoid incest; incestuous individuals had inferior offspring and died out.

Well, asexual people die out every generation, but nothing seems to prevent some from being born every generation. For instance, in a national probability British sample of over 18,000 people, roughly 1% of people assessed reported that they were asexual, i.e., had no sexual interest in either men or women[1].

Similarly, whereas most people abhor incest, let alone indulge in it, some people continue to harbor incestuous fantasies and engage in incestuous sex[2-4].

There are numerous examples of evolutionary maladaptive characteristics that persist in small numbers in the population, but Ziv ignores this.

Ziv argues that our bodies are designed to have bilateral symmetry, i.e., we are designed to be perfectly symmetrical. This is incorrect. There is both a random and a non-random component to bilateral asymmetry, and it is the random component that is not part of biological design. The magnitude and direction (left or right side greater) of the random component fluctuates between individuals and hence this component is designated as fluctuating asymmetry. Throughout the book, whenever Ziv cites the literature on symmetry and especially when he extols the virtue of greater bilateral symmetry as in corresponding to better health and greater attractiveness, he is actually referring to the literature on fluctuating asymmetry, and the correct statement is that a lower level of fluctuating asymmetry, rather than greater symmetry, is correlated with somewhat better health and greater attractiveness. For instance, fluctuating asymmetry rather than directional asymmetry is a correlate of attractiveness of faces[5].

Ziv claims that heterozygosity for sickle cell anemia makes the carrier resistant to malaria, but this is not true; what happens is that the severity of malarial infection is reduced in these individuals, which increases the probability of survival should an infection occur.

Ziv acknowledges that races exist, but then cites pathetic sources to support this assertion: the approval of the drug BiDil for blacks by the FDA and a comment on Cavalli-Sforza’s book by Steve Sailer! No serious scientist, aware of the nature of race denial, would cite such poor sources. One needs to cite molecular[6-8] and skeletal evidence[9, 10] in conjunction with standard phylogeographic criteria for race assignment in order to make the case for races among humans. Ziv even says that “since race is really a continuum, there is no ideal way to define or document it.” Well, there is clinal variation with respect to individual characteristics, even a group of neutral DNA markers, and a race denial argument specifically denies racial reality because of human clinal variation[11], but race is characterized by a cluster of variables, and the existence of racial clusters has been shown in spite of clinal variation of DNA markers[6].

Ziv reports that in spite of changing fashions, the optimal waist-to-hip ratio of 0.7 in women, according to the research of D. Singh, has not changed; it has remained in the 0.68-0.72 range for Miss Americas and Playboy centerfolds. Well, waist-to-hip ratio in Miss Americas and Playboy centerfolds has increased from the mid- to late-20th century[12]; these women have become more masculine. During the early years of Playboy, waist-to-hip ratios were less than 0.7, on average. Additionally, there is nothing universal about the 0.7 figure: men in some black[13] and Native American[14, 15] populations prefer women with higher front-on waist-to-hip ratios than white men.

Ziv claims that more lopsided individuals (less symmetrical) are more likely to respond aggressively when provoked, but it is not difficult to come up with some papers where more symmetrical people turned out to be more physically aggressive[16, 17]. The latter is merely one example of Ziv omitting the literature that does not support his case.

Ziv is so sold onto the notion of hybrid vigor that he tries to see some in even ill-fated interspecies crosses. For instance, Ziv writes that a mule (horse mother, donkey father) may display some hybrid vigor because it has more stamina and more load-carrying capacity than horses! Hybrid vigor is inferred when the offspring are overall better than their parents, but mules are sterile. Ziv also cites the example of attempts to breed sheep and goats, which are typically unsuccessful, but he describes an example of a success that may have displayed some hybrid vigor as it grew faster than regular sheep or goat offspring, and was so oversexed that it frequently attempted to mount both sheep and goats. The poor animal had to be castrated to reign in his amorous pursuits, but faster growth and the oversexed nature could easily be a manifestation of abnormal development rather than hybrid vigor.

Ziv mentions inbreeding depression and hybrid vigor but fails to mention outbreeding depression. For the uninitiated, depression here refers to the offspring being overall worse than the parents and vigor refers to the offspring being overall better than the parents. There are plenty of examples of race mixing leading to outbreeding depression in various species[18-31].

Several claims in the book are not cited. For instance, Ziv reports a study where underweight newborn babies were more likely to be homozygous (less genetically diverse), but does not cite the reference. Given the small size of the book, it would not have hurt Ziv to add twenty additional pages of references.

Ziv reports that studies show that whites are the least likely to accept intermarriage, which is far from true. Jews, Muslims, Hindus and many other groups are easily much less accepting of intermarriage than whites are. Ben Tillman has previously brought to my attention that the oft-quoted 50% outmarriage rate for American Jews is an exaggeration, and it has been pointed out that even if this figure were taken at face value, it indicates a notable resistance to outmarriage among Jews given their small numbers in the U.S.; see this comment for details. Additionally, when Jews outmarry, most of the time it is with whites rather than with blacks or East Asians. Israel does not allow marriage between Jews and non-Jews, just as Muslims are forbidden to marry non-Muslims. On a related note, Ziv cites anti-miscegenation laws in some U.S. states decades ago, but fails to mention, let alone condemn Israel’s existing laws prohibiting marriage between Jews and non-Jews. In multiracial societies with a significant white presence, whites tend to disproportionately occupy the upper classes, and whereas the appreciation of the physical appearance of a number of populations is mostly limited to within the respective populations, white looks are appreciated by a substantial number of people in most populations. In other words, being white is disproportionately associated with higher status. Therefore, one observes that among non-white groups that generally oppose intermarriage, when they accept intermarriage, it is usually if the spouse is white or a higher status race, but they display marked animosity if the spouse is an other-race non-white of lower racial status. On the other hand, when whites intermarry, they almost always marry someone coming from a lower-status race. Non-blacks generally perceive blacks to be the lowest status race in terms of both looks and socioeconomic status, i.e., the willingness of a large number of blacks to outmarry should not be surprising, and it is obvious that one cannot argue for a naturally high willingness to outmarry among blacks given that there are not a whole lot of non-black races of lower socioeconomic and looks status than blacks. When black women object to black men marrying non-blacks, it is has less to do with objection to outmarriage per se than with the fact that so many black men are in prison or jobless/criminal that their already-low partner prospects are reduced by outmarrying black men. In short, Ziv is grossly mistaken about whites being the least likely to accept intermarriage.

Other problems with Ziv’s book should be seen in light of his main thesis.

Main thesis

Ziv’s main thesis is simple. He argues that more symmetrical people are more attractive, healthier and more heterozygous (more genetically diverse). He then points out that since race mixing increases heterozygosity, it leads to more attractive and healthier people. Let us examine this argument.

Hybrid vigor

Ziv addresses an example of hybrid vigor involving mixing some races of corn, and notes that “the disadvantage of hybridization is that you have to re-create the hybrid seed every generation.” Why doesn’t Ziv elaborate on this? Here is why. Let there be a gene that exists in two versions, A and a; each individual has two copies of this gene. Therefore, an individual could be AA, aa or Aa. Let the beneficial genotype be Aa. If one crosses AA with aa, all first generation hybrids will be Aa. If the first generation hybrids breed among themselves at random, the ratio AA:Aa:aa = 1:2:1, i.e., the desired genotype is present among only half the second generation hybrids. It is for this reason that corn farmers would maintain the original parental stocks and cross them to obtain hybrid vigor, but not allow the hybrids to reproduce among themselves. Obviously, among humans this is not applicable. The example considered here is a single-gene case, but if hybrid vigor is applicable to interracial breeding among humans with respect to multiple genes, then it should be clear that it will be drastically reduced among second and subsequent generation hybrids.

Ziv offers the following examples of hybrid vigor among humans.

  • He cites the tale of mutineers on the HMS Bounty (1789) settling on Pitcairn Island and mating with the local women. The half British-half Tahitian children, according to Ziv, grew up to be 2.5 inches taller than the British and the Tahitians. It is difficult to determine the reliability of this report.
  • Ziv reports a study, where Khasi girls in northeast India (basically East Asian types) were shorter than girls born to Khasi women that had mated with immigrant Muslim men (less Asiatic)[32], as an example of hybrid vigor, but this study did not assess the height of the parents and reported that the neighboring Muslims were a taller people. Therefore, how can one be sure that this is an example of hybrid vigor? If Khasi women breed with taller men, they are bound to produce taller children.
  • Ziv cites an UCLA study by Jay Phelan that showed mixed-race individuals to be more symmetrical (less fluctuating asymmetry) than individuals that were classified into only one of the following groups: white, East Asian, black, Native American or Hispanic (total sample size was 99). This find is reportedly highly significant; the probability that it is a chance find being less than 0.007%. The 25 least symmetrical individuals were uniracial whereas 7 of the 8 most symmetrical individuals were multiracial/mixed race. The participants also apparently had their pictures taken and evaluated for physical attractiveness, and the mixed-race individuals were rated as better looking. Curiously, this study does not appear to have been published, though it was featured in a UCLA report dating to November 04, 2002. Ziv’s citation mentions personal communication. Four years is more than enough time for research to be published. Has this study not been published because of its poor quality? Jay Phelan is co-author of the book “Mean Genes,” and he also wrote the forward to Ziv’s book. Phelan harbors the same idea as Ziv as far as the supposed benefits of race mixing go.

Ziv provides supportive evidence by citing examples of hybrid vigor resulting from crossing inbred strains of animals such as mice, and also cites studies from Swiss[33] and Polish[34] villages where children born of parents from different villages were taller, heavier and larger-chested compared to children born of parents from the same village, though the Swiss study actually compared the Swiss sample with their relatives that had outmarried in California.

The Swiss and polish studies are not about hybrid vigor, but Ziv extrapolates from these studies that the outcome of race mixing will be even better, assuming that the higher the heterozygosity, the better it is, apparently because more diverse genes mean more diverse gene products, which should cover an individual over a broader range of the environment. The latter reasoning appears sound, but then why is outbreeding depression observed in a number of cases? Has Ziv never heard of co-adapted gene complexes, which are disrupted by hybridization? Has Ziv never heard of the concept of genetic architecture in cardiovascular disease, whereby it is not always an allele (one of several versions of a gene) per se that is associated with disease, but the allele in a given environmental and genetic background[35-37]? For instance, a haplotype that slightly increases the odds of a heart attack among American whites is found in smaller numbers among American blacks, who have gotten it from whites, but it confers a 3-fold larger risk in black Americans[38]. Similarly, an allele that confers protection against diabetes among whites does no such thing among south Asians[39].

The paper on the Khasi, which Ziv has presumably read given that he cited it, mentions an Israeli study that attempted to infer the effect of intermarriage, between Jewish groups that had immigrated to Israel from different parts of the world, on the longitudinal growth of children. Five mixed groups were analyzed: two of these were similar to a parental group, one showed some evidence for enhanced growth, and two groups showed some detrimental effects of mixing[40]. I suspect that the null and detrimental finds in this study prompted Ziv to not cite it.

It should be noted that rats and mice are commonly used lab animals, and it is necessary that the differences among the experimental and control groups be attributed to the experimental protocol rather than genetic variation between the groups. Therefore, rats/mice used in a typical experiment come from a highly inbred line, and it should not be surprising that crossing two highly inbred and closely related races results in reduced overall fluctuating asymmetry, but human races, especially those existing in large numbers, are nowhere as inbred as lab rats/mice are. In a study were wild mice were made to inbreed, the overall fluctuating asymmetry of the inbred mice was not greater than that of the outbred group, even though these two groups had different fitness under seminatural conditions[41], but Ziv has not mentioned this study at all. This study is merely one of several that have shown fluctuating asymmetry to be a poor indicator of developmental stability.

Some studies have shown little to no relationship between fluctuating asymmetry and heterozygoisty[42-44], whereas some have even shown fluctuating asymmetry to increase beyond a certain level of heterozygosity[45, 46], i.e., outbreeding depression. In a meta-analysis of 118 datasets published in 41 studies[47], the effect size correlation between fluctuating asymmetry and heterozygoisty was r = -0.09 (SE=0.03), a low effect size correlation, but the interesting data is in the following figure, namely a non-significant trend toward a weak positive effect size correlation in endotherms (animals that maintain a constant internal body temperature), i.e., a non-significant trend for greater heterozygosity in endotherms to correspond to somewhat less symmetrical individuals. To interpret effect size correlation (ES): small ES (less than 0.15), medium/moderate ES (0.15 < ES < 0.33), large ES (greater than 0.33).

Fluctuating asymmetry and heterozygosity in ectotherms and endotherms.

In this meta-analysis, heterozygoisty accounted for one percent of the variation in developmental stability assessed via how symmetrical the individuals were, and even for ectotherms the variance accounted for was only 2% (r=−0.23 ± 0.09)[47]. If Ziv did proper research, he could not possibly have missed this meta-analysis, but he apparently does not cite this because he wants to convey that more heterozygosity equals better symmetry, which translates to more attractiveness and better health, all of which mean that miscegenation for the purposes of increasing heterozygoisty can only be positive with respect to physical and mental development.

Mating preferences

Ziv notes that evolution should shape people to breed in ways that are the most beneficial, yet laments that people generally tend to breed within their races, which is apparently not the best strategy as far as the benefits of heterozygoisty go: more attractive and healthier people. One of the reasons for people mostly seeking partners within their race is that people seek partners in accordance with an internal blueprint, but the good news for Ziv is that this internal blue print can be altered with sufficient exposure to people of other races. He cites the example of snow geese: the white ones breed with whites and the blue ones breed with other blue geese. However, when white geese are raised by blue geese, they prefer blue geese and blue geese raised by white geese prefer white geese. Snow geese of any variety show no preference for white or blue geese if they are exposed to both since birth. Therefore, Ziv extrapolates that humans exposed to multiple races since birth, which will be a reality with mass immigration of multiple races into the West, will not show a specific preference for their own race. This is another non sequitur. More complex human brains are not as susceptible to imprinting as bid brains are. In multiracial societies, non-whites tend to have a preference for facial features closer to that of the white average, but it is uncommon for whites to prefer non-white facial features.

Health

Ziv offers no direct evidence for improved health among mixed-race individuals, and ignores evidence for an across-the-board increase in health problems among mixed-race individuals in a large, representative sample of U.S. adolescents[48]. I have previously addressed this study by J. Richard Udry; the most likely reason for the worsened health of the mixed-race individuals is increased odds of the disruption of the autonomic nervous system, resulting from race mixing.

A study involving undergraduate students at San Francisco State University and the University of Hawaii at Hilo revealed that mixed-race individuals (basically white-Asian mixes) had worse health than whites or Asians[49]; read the paper.

A newer study that assessed substance use and violent behaviors among 2,082 students in Seattle public middle schools has reported mixed-race individuals being worse on these counts, after controlling for differences in socioeconomic status[50]; read the paper. This study also assessed ethnic identity and perceived discrimination to evaluate the extent to which they were related to the problem behaviors. However, a positive ethnic identity was protective on some counts only, and was associated with an increased likelihood of the participants having ever threatened to beat someone up. Perceived discrimination was associated with increased likelihood of problem behaviors on some counts only, but it cannot be assumed that discriminatory experiences were responsible for the problem behaviors since problematic behaviors on the part of individuals would invite discrimination.

Clinical samples have shown higher rates of mental and behavioral problems among mixed-race individuals[51, 52]. There have been few studies showing mixed-race individuals to be comparable to single-race individuals: a study from Hawaii reported no differences with respect to personality variables[53] and another study reported no differences with respect to quality of parent and adolescent relationship[54]. A few years before Udry[48] published the health data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Add Health), Cooney and Radina[55] published some of this data, and reported multiracial individuals to be worse than uniracial individuals on less than half the school performance, behavioral and psychological dimensions assessed, but a more thorough analysis by Udry shows multiracial individuals to be worse on most measures, including health. Except for the Seattle middle schools study[50], which was likely published after Ziv submitted his final manuscript for publication, Ziv couldn’t possibly have failed to come across the others showing worse health among mixed-race individuals, but he pretends as if these studies don’t exist.

India is a cesspool of race mixing, but East Indians have some of the highest if not the highest prevalence of cardiovascular disease, the metabolic syndrome, diabetes, insulin resistance, hyperinsulinemia, central obesity, dyslipidemias such as lower high-density lipoprotein or increased low density lipoprotein or higher triglyceride levels, increased thrombotic tendency as in increased plasminogen activator inhibitor-1 and decreased tissue plasminogen activator levels, and low birth weights[56-63], in addition to a weak musculo-skeletal build[64-67]. It is remarkable how often I have seen slenderly built south Asian males with a tendency to pack on excess body fat, especially in the abdominal region. The prevalence of cardiovascular disease among mixed-race groups such as south Asians, blacks and Hispanics in the U.S. is 2- to 3-fold higher compared to that among whites[68]. Whereas a number of the papers cited within this paragraph have been published in 2006, they are documenting data that have been well-known for years. Why has Ziv not cited such data?

Athleticism/Sporting ability

Ziv cites a study about more heterozygous oysters being better able to utilize oxygen under stress, and then notes that the implications for human athletics are staggering! Talk about non sequiturs! In a human study, overall body symmetry was unrelated to lung capacity and maximal oxygen utilization[69], i.e., the more symmetrical individuals, which Ziv would describe as more heterozygous, were not better off with respect to the physiological capacities addressed. Another study reported that elite athletes were not more symmetrical than sub-elite athletes[70]. Now, there are studies showing skilled athletes being more symmetrical than non-athletes (see review in Tomkinson et al.[70]), but the relationship is weak, and by not citing negative finds, Ziv is trying to convey that the relationship is so strong that interracial mating to increase heterozygosity is highly recommended.

The only example of a mixed race great athlete that Ziv cites is Tiger Woods, but if I recall correctly, then Tiger Woods had severe myopia, which had to be surgically corrected. If my recollection is correct, then without modern technology, if Tiger Woods had to live as a hunter-gatherer, he would quickly become prey, and he would also be a pretty useless fighter.

In the 1970s, there were several American blacks playing the PGA tour, but in spite of an increase in the popularity of golf and the greater participation of American blacks, currently, Tiger Woods is the only part-black person playing the PGA tour; see more.

There have been some great mixed-race athletes, e.g., Jim Thorpe and Daley Thompson, but the Decathlon is mostly dominated by whites, just as most Olympic sports are. In addressing race, Ziv addresses whether some races are better at some things than others, and says that this is an issue that he doesn’t want to focus on, but he points the interested reader to Jon Entine’s book, “Taboo: Why black athletes dominate sports and why we are afraid to talk about it.” This book alleges the racial athletic superiority of blacks, but Entine is as clueless as Steve Sailer on this topic. Blacks only dominate a few sports. West African blacks do not dominate sports such as weightlifting, powerlifting, martial arts, strong man competitions or freestyle fighting, where their alleged superior speed and strength should give them an advantage. Presently, all four heavyweight boxing titles are held by whites. Castefootball.us also features plenty of evidence about anti-white discrimination in American team sports such as football and basketball, showing that the heavy black overrepresentation in these sports is not entirely merit-based. All-white teams from Europe have been learning the game of basketball, and in recent years have defeated all-black teams from the U.S. on several occasions. Things are bound to get more interesting.

When it comes to thousands of years of race mixing between multiple races, it would be hard to beat India, yet East Indians are undoubtedly among the worst if not the worst athletes in the world.

Attractiveness

In a meta-analysis of correlates of facial beauty by Gillian Rhodes[71], the effect size correlations (ES) were: average facial features (0.52 ± 0.41; 95% CI = 0.42-0.61; weighted ES = 0.54), symmetry (0.25 ± 0.34; 95% CI = 0.16-0.33; weighted ES = 0.23) and femininity (0.64 ± 0.39; 95% CI = 0.51-0.74; weighted ES = 0.61). The data are reported as effect size correlation (ES) ± standard deviation; the interval that one would be 95% confident the actual ES lies in the general population; ES weighted by the number of faces examined.

Ziv’s argument that mixed-race individuals are more attractive is based on the assumption that greater heterozygosity equals more symmetry, which equals greater attractiveness, but there are at least two much more powerful correlates of facial beauty that Ziv ignores.

The only study that Ziv cites in favor of mixed-race individuals being more symmetrical is Jay Phelan’s study, which remains unpublished four years after its completion. We have already seen that the relationship between heterozygoisty and symmetry (thereby developmental stability) is very weak.

What about average facial features? As I mentioned previously, Ziv should read about craniofacial morphology in mixed-race individuals, white-Native American mixes to be more precise, and note that canonical variates analysis revealed a canonical root, explaining 36% of the variance, that made the mestizos deviate from shape variables in between whites and Native Americans[72].  52% of the 52 shape variables deviated from the mathematical average shape of the parent races, and here is the money shot[72]:

Finally, it is interesting that the distances that could not be assigned to a particular developmental pattern appeared to introduce ‘‘noise’’ and blur the effects of cranial integration.

The developmental patterns talked about above are mathematical averaging based upon the expectation from quantitative genetics, i.e., additive genetic variation, and morphological integration of different parts of the skull, whereby different parts of the skull effectively behave like a single unit, i.e., a change in one part corresponds to changes in other associated parts.  Note the term “interesting;” this term is an euphemism for some loss of morphological integration in the skull resulting from race mixing, i.e., some solid evidence that yes indeed, races exist among humans, and also that humans races—at least the two considered and by extrapolating from genetic distances and skull shape comparisons, any combination of races—are sufficiently distant so as to result in disruptions of co-adapted gene complexes and subsequent increased odds of anomalous outcomes in mixed offspring, which is confirmed by the health data addressed above.

Morphological integration is an important concept. Whereas one may not appreciate the facial features of another race, one will be able to pick out the better looking among another race, and these better looking people will have some kind of harmony between various parts of their face, but this harmony is more likely to be lost as a result of race mixing compared to same-race breeding. For instance, I previously commented on the malformed appearance of the deranged model Heidi Klum’s mulatto baby.

Deranged white model Heidi Klum with Negro Seal.

Deranged Heidi Klum with malformed mulatto baby; Henry Guenther Ademola Dashtu Samuel.

Deranged Heidi Klum with malformed mulatto baby; Henry Guenther Ademola Dashtu Samuel.

Some would point out that neonates are not exactly cute, but Henry Guenther Ademola Dashtu Samuel, the son of Heidi Klum and Seal, clearly looks like something is wrong with him. The malformed mulatto neonate has grown into a retarded-looking malformed toddler; contrast his features with the beauty of the white child Heidi Klum had previously. I have seen black babies that are a lot better looking.

Deranged Heidi Klum's children with Negro Seal.

Deranged Heidi Klum's children with Negro Seal.

Actual shape variables are important, too. From the perspective of whites, non-white admixture can only diminish the attractiveness of the descendents of whites: make noses broader, make the middle portion of the face flatter (absorption of East Asians, Native Americans, Eskimo-Siberians, khoi-San people, some central African populations), make faces broader (absorption of East Asians, most black African populations, Native Americans, Eskimo-Siberians), make jaws more protruding (especially if blacks, Melanesians and Australian aborigines are involved), make faces larger (absorption of most non-white populations), decrease height (absorption of many non-white populations, especially for northern Europeans), make limbs smaller relative to height (absorption of East Asians, Eskimo-Siberians, Native Americans), increase the frequency of hooked noses (absorption of Middle Eastern populations such as Jews), weaken musculo-skeletal build (absorption of non-whites in general except West Africans and Polynesians), etc.

In addition, non-whites possess more primitive facial features, and some of them disproportionately persist when they mate with whites. For instance, a study from Hawaii reported the persistence of the broad face/massive cheekbones of East Asians among Asian-white hybrids[73]. In addition, flared nostrils, broader noses and more protruding jaws also tend to persist.

What about femininity? No citations are needed for the less feminine physiques of East Asian and physically similar women. Black women, in spite of their larger breasts and more protrusive buttocks, are unable to look as feminine as white women as a result of their greater muscularity, higher front-on waist-to-hip ratios and facial features. White women look more feminine, and I would refer the reader to a previous, currently active, thread on Nordic beauty, where I have put up numerous comparisons; I still have to respond to several comments there, and my replies will feature more comparisons, but posting this review first is more important. Rhodes’ meta-analysis makes it clear that femininity is a much more powerful correlate of beauty in women compared to symmetry, yet Ziv ignores femininity.

I expected to see Ziv cite Gillian Rhodes’ study about the greater rated attractiveness and perceived health of Asian-white hybrids[74], but Ziv hasn’t cited it, and it may have come out too late for Ziv to cite it. I have previously critiqued this study. In short, the whites in this study were unattractive, and the assumption of the authors that race mixing will average the facial features of the parents is not true[72].

Intelligence

Ziv cites a study from Hawaii where white-Japanese hybrid children outperformed white or Japanese children on 13 of 15 cognitive tests (e.g., 0.30 S.D. on a version of the Raven’s progressive matrices and 0.22 S.D. on the PMA Vocabulary Test), in spite of no significant socioeconomic differences between the groups[75]. The confound here is assortative mating for IQ, i.e., it cannot be assumed that the whites and Japanese that bred together came from a random sample of their respective racial groups. Udry studied a large, random population of U.S. adolescents, but as the following table from his paper shows[48], the GPA (grade point average) and verbal IQ of the mixed-race individuals were in between those of the individuals belonging to their parental racial groups, i.e., no hybrid vigor was observed.

National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Add Health) data on GPA and verbal IQ of mixed race and single race individuals.

One possible example of hybrid vigor with respect to IQ, from the perspective of black Africans, suggested by Arthur Jensen, is that American blacks have an IQ of 85, 15 points or 1 S.D. higher than that of their black African counterparts, even though white admixture among them averages 10-20%. However, if we assume that the black African average IQ would be a few points higher if malnutrition/undernutrition were eliminated, then given that there is a positive correlation between health and IQ, it is reasonable to suppose that Africans bound for slavery in the U.S. were among the healthier ones, and given the harsh conditions of transport, healthier still individuals made it to the U.S. Therefore, the IQ potential of the arrivals could be around 80, and white admixture may only have raised IQ by 5 points or so instead of 15 points, which would not necessitate positing hybrid vigor from the perspective of black Africans, but the validity of this proposal is unclear, and in any case, at present, the 85 IQ of American blacks is not proof of hybrid vigor from the perspective of black Africans.

Ziv cites a paper by Mingroni[76], which proposes heterosis as possibly partially accounting for the Lynn-Flynn effect, i.e., the secular worldwide rise in IQ scores documented in the 20th century. Mingroni’s argument is reasonable. Throughout the period of this secular trend, the heritability of IQ has remained very high, which is not easy to account for if one assumes that environmental factors are involved, and Mingroni cites papers that have critiqued the implausibility of a model proposed by Dickens and Flynn that has argued for a large effect of the environment on IQ. However, the heterosis proposed by Mingroni postulates increased mixing of people from neighboring villages, which is not hybridization (mixing of different breeds), and it does not follow, as Ziv assumes, that the greater the outbreeding, the better it will be. In addition, data from Spain show that the bulk of the Lynn-Flynn effect over a 30-year period was accounted for by gains mostly in the lower half of the bell curve, with very little change in the 99th percentile and spectacular gains in the first percentile[77]; see the gain in raw scores. Therefore, improved nutrition is certainly accounting for a good deal of the Lynn-Flynn effect. Mingroni also cites secular increases in high-heritability factors such as height, head circumference, myopia, autism, asthma and possibly ADHD. If greater outbreeding, though still mostly within racial groups, is partly responsible for the Lynn-Flynn effect and also increases in abnormalities such as myopia and asthma, then general heterosis is not implicated.

The three highest IQ groups are: U.S./U.K. Ashkenazim diaspora (IQ = 110[78, 79]), northeast Asians (IQ = 105) and northern Europeans (IQ = 100). Northeast Asians and northern Europeans have very little other-race admixture. Jews are more heterogeneous, but the most plausible explanation for the Ashkenazim IQ advantage is that under selection pressures for higher IQ, a high level of inbreeding among them accumulated several deleterious alleles that have the side effect of increasing IQ[80]. Therefore, the brightest groups certainly didn’t get that way by large-scale outbreeding. In addition, notwithstanding the northeast Asian IQ advantage over northern Europeans, especially with respect to math ability, whites are heavily overrepresented, in spite of their smaller numbers, among Nobel Prize winners, Field Medalists, annual international ACM software coding college competitions and the most brilliant inventors/innovators. Therefore average IQ is only part of the story, and there is no reason to believe that a white-northeast Asian hybrid population will produce as many intellectually outstanding people per capita as present-day northern Europeans do.

Ziv hilariously writes, “Once true interracial marriage becomes commonplace, I think we will see an even bigger boost in the physical and mental development of future generations.” Really? If the U.S./U.K. Ashkenazim diaspora, northeast Asians and northern Europeans were to mass-absorb the likes of Bushmen (IQ = 54), Australian aborigines (IQ = 62), black Africans in general (IQ = 67) or south Asians (IQ = 82) (see Lynn[81]), would one expect a boost in mental development from the perspective of the high IQ groups?

Another useful consideration is as follows. Assume that there are no deleterious effects of race mixing. From a strictly IQ perspective, if a white man with an IQ of 100 had to choose between a white woman and a Bangladeshi woman, both with an IQ of 130, which would be the better choice? If additive genetics accounted for all the variation in IQ between individuals, one would expect the offspring of the union in consideration to have an IQ around 115, but about 40% of the IQ variation between individuals is accounted for by additive genetics, i.e., the white man can expect an IQ boost that is 40% of 15 points, i.e., 6 points. Therefore, the offspring will have a range of IQ centering around 106. Now, given white and Bangladeshi average IQs of 100 and low 80s, respectively, a 130-IQ Bangladeshi is much more of an outlier for her race than a 130-IQ white is. In other words, the contribution of additive genetics from the Bangladeshi woman would result in a probable IQ of the hybrid offspring leaning toward the lower range of the distribution centering around 106 compared to the white woman. As noted above, deleterious alleles are implicated in the Ashkenazim IQ advantage[80], and it has been documented that people with very high IQs tend to have an above average incidence of myopia and atopic disorders (related to autonomic nervous system disruption) such as asthma and allergies[82]. Therefore, the odds that abnormal genetics/developmental events are implicated in the 130-IQ of the Bangladeshi woman are greater. In other words, the better choice is clearly the white woman. Hence, even if one assumes no harm resulting from race mixing, from a strictly IQ perspective, a white person is better off breeding with a white than a member of the dark races with the same IQ as a prospective white partner. If deleterious alleles are mostly responsible for the Ashkenazim IQ advantage, then it is not worth it for whites to breed with the Ashkenazim. Additionally, northeast Asians are know to have lower verbal IQs than whites, and from an IQ perspective, no racial benefits from absorbing them are apparent given that notwithstanding their math advantage, when it comes to manifesting math prowess at the highest levels (e.g., work deserving of the Field Medal), northeast Asians, in spite of their much greater numbers, are far behind whites.

Conclusions

Ziv makes a very weak case, and has undoubtedly omitted inconvenient data. Giving the process of manuscript submission to final publication about an year’s time, Ziv should easily have come across the citations in this review that were published/put online prior to mid-2005. The evidence that he has ignored makes the opposite case. None of the heavily mixed populations --mestizos/mulattos in south America, Middle Eastern/North African people, south Asians, southeast Asians or central Asians -- are known for great health, vigor, attractiveness or high intelligence. I will speculate on Ziv’s motives below, but the implications of his work should be briefly addressed. From the perspectives of kinship and ethnic genetic interests (EGI), both of which Ziv ignores, Ziv’s ideas are horrible; see comments by “On Holliday” here and a fuller discussion of EGI here. In the biological sciences, there is consensus that living organisms be preserved at the level of kinds, i.e. races and higher order levels of taxonomy, unless one is looking at a virus/microorganism that is deadly for humans. Only if conservation efforts are threatened by inbreeding depression will there be a recommendation to mix races or species (in plants) to preserve broad taxonomical groups, and Ziv’s message will normally be treated with contempt in a non-human context. The concept of ethnic genetic interests basically argues that one’s race is worth preserving because it is one’s own, not because there is any special value to it. However, it is also worthwhile to consider the value of things to determine what is and what isn’t worthy of preservation, and white physical appearance and the ability of northern Europeans to produce the highest number of intellectually outstanding people per capita in the absence of having accumulated deleterious alleles, like the Ashkenazim have, is of sufficient value to be at least preserved if not enhanced, and speaking of enhancement, this will come about by evolution within whites; absorbing non-whites will result in devolution. Ziv’s recommendations will be especially disastrous for whites from an aesthetics and intelligence standpoint if many white people are persuaded by his arguments.

What has motivated Alon Ziv?

Attempting to critique an argument by questioning the motives of the author is bad practice, and is specifically known as deconstruction, but I have provided plenty of criticism, and do not intend this section to be a form of criticism. Rather, given the destructive nature of Ziv’s thesis, it is of some interest to question what could have prompted a man with an apparently adequate background in the biological sciences, and one who appears to have spent years reading relevant studies, to present very selective evidence in favor of his arguments and ignore a large body of evidence making the opposite case.

Ziv tells us that his book is not an instruction manual, i.e., he is not telling us to pick a spouse based on racial criteria. He also notes that he doesn’t need to instruct people to seek interracial unions because they are inevitable. He tells the reader to “get ready for a mixed race explosion.” He writes that “interracial marriage is the future, not because it should be, but simply because it is.” And, as to why it is going to be this way, it is because of continued immigration of people of various races into the U.S. as well as other Western nations, and people’s altered mating preferences in accordance with the snow geese example.

Well then, why write a book extolling the virtues of race mixing if it is going to happen on a large scale no matter what Ziv or other people say? The answer is surely not that Ziv merely decided to document what is going to happen in the future, as should be obvious from the tone of the book and Ziv’s very selective citations. The answer is easy to figure out. Ziv laments that although Gary, Indiana (U.S.A.) has 430,000 whites and 120,000 blacks, blacks and whites are highly segregated in this city; he even calls this depressing! It appears that race mixing in the U.S. is not occurring on a scale that would please Ziv, and he has decided to help accelerate it. Ziv writes, “For the modern world, it would be far better to seek out the most genetically distinct mate possible.” He tells us that “the higher one’s heterozygosity is, the better it is,” and then tells us that the combination that would yield the highest heterozygosity would be the combination of a black African with a non-African, a Bantu-Eskimo mating yielding the highest heterozygosity of all interracial matings, according to the research of Cavalli-Sforza. Ziv is quick to add that he is not advocating a race of Bantu-Eskimo supermen, but greater heterozygoisty has its benefits.

One factor that could have motivated Ziv to write this book is that he genuinely subscribes to his thesis and is so enthusiastic about the virtues of race mixing that he has skipped evidence to the contrary, believing that the weight of the evidence in the long run will eventually vindicate him. Another possibility is that Ziv is motivated by malice, a feeling that I cannot shake off.

It would be interesting to learn about the racial background(s) of the women that Ziv has dated and who he ultimately has children with; if she turns out to be non-Jewish and non-white, I can see myself giving Ziv the benefit of the doubt and believe that his book reflects his genuine conviction about the benefits of race mixing, but if this woman is Jewish or white, then my suspicion that Ziv is motivated by malice would be strengthened. Ziv lives in Los Angeles and should have no problems finding a willing black, Asian or Hispanic woman. However, if I had to bet, I would wager that Ziv would prefer a Nordic white for a breeding partner. Ziv doesn’t tell us about the kind of women he likes, but he describes his first love, a classmate, Leslie, in seventh grade. The only thing he tells us about her physical appearance is that she had honey blonde hair, and his description makes it obvious that he was enamored by her blondeness. Of course, if Ziv mated with Leslie, his offspring would not have honey blond hair anymore than if she mated with any non-white, but Ziv does not address this kind of loss resulting from race mixing.

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the “inevitable happens” ; what exactly are you referring to rustymason?

Media companies shouldn’t be marketed as ‘white’ - they should just start off with fairly objective neutral programming. The racial aspects of crime etc should be reported fully, and the unenlightened will soon start to see the real picture.

nationalvanguard.org is a good website to tell people about bc it doesn’t allow postings (which often degenerate to racist name-calling) and has some very good articles.

Posted by Wunderbar on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 at 10:22 AM | #


Just had a look at the Occidental Quarterly online - looks pretty shit. But the NPI website looks good.

Instead of talking with no action, a yearly donation from all concerned American patriots could help the NPI to become a strong force. Imagine 100 000 patriots each donating a $1000 a year. That could get the ball rolling in creating some good online video media.

(Nope I won’t be investing, I’m not American. Anyway the country I’m most concerned about is Sweden. I hope to travel there next year. )

Posted by Wunderbar on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 at 10:58 AM | #


I came across the following comment by Steven P. at another blog (a comment in which he explains his preference for avoiding the term “genocide” to designate what’s going on, in favor of “racial engineering experiments").  At the end of his comment he includes definitions of what constitutes “genocide,” taken from the United Nations Genocide Convention (adopted 1948) and gives a list of “acts punishable” as genocide under the provisions of that Convention.  One glance at the definition and list of acts punishable will make crystal-clear to anyone Prof. Alon Ziv is potentially liable to prosecution: 

The term genocide, though accurate, is too strong.  Displacing a people against their will by flooding their lands with competing groups qualifies as a constructive section C genocide under Article 2 of the Genocide Convention of 1948.  A possible additional violation is forcible denial of group representation since whites — and only whites — aren’t allowed to organize as whites under penalty of soft-persecution for “racism.”

The problem is that most people assume all genocides are section A (killing) or B (terror) genocides because they associate the term with extreme violence.  So you talk about genocide and people look around for evidence of massive carnage, find none and conclude you’re being alarmist.  The only way around this is to bore them to tears by first discussing international treaties and the three non-vioent genocide categories [C (resource denial), D (mass sterilization) and E (child takings)].  Folks… this is too complicated.

Personally, I no longer use the term “genocide.” Back when I used to, my wife picked up on it and started using it herself.  One day I watched as a leftie got her all defensive by telling her she was exaggerating.  I didn’t like that — watching her trying to justify her claim was painful.  She doesn’t know the details of the Genocide Convention of 1948 and besides, why should she?  I felt responsible for her embarassment because she trusts my choice of language.  I haven’t used the term “genocide” since.  I now use “racial engineering experiments on whites” — it isn’t only hard to argue with, but sounds so eerie and makes its proponents sound so evil that it’s practically a self-contained argument in and of itself.

Getting the terminology right is critical because all identity politics is grievance politics.  No grievance, no identity politics.  Ever heard blacks discussing group interests without invoking slavery?  Ever heard Jews discussing group interests without invoking the Holocaust?  Neither have I.

Genocide is our grievance. But we need the right terminology (label) to communicate it outside of our tiny circles.

Possible alternatives:

“racial engineering experiment”
“race replacement”
“reverse colonization”
“white dispossession” (source: Pat Buchanan)
“ethnic submersion” (source: Dalai Lama)
“cultural genocide” (source: Dalai Lama)
“soft genocide”
“slow motion genocide”
constructive section C genocide”
constructive violations of Article 2(c) of the Genocide Convention of 1948″

Examples:

“But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing racial engineering experiment against my people, white people, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.”

“But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of race replacement against my people, white people, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.”

“But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing constructive violations of Article 2(c) of the Genocide Convention of 1948 against my people, white people, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.”

(Note: “constructive” is a legal term that means “equivalent to.”)

GENOCIDE CONVENTION OF 1948

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1

The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

* (a) Killing members of the group;

* (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

* (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

* (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

* (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3

The following acts shall be punishable:

* (a) Genocide;

* (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

* (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

* (d) Attempt to commit genocide;

* (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4

Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Clearly a solid case can be made for prosecuting Prof. Ziv under Article 2, §§ c and d and possibly § b as well, and under all five sections of Article 3.  Furthermore, it’s inescapable that anyone promoting forced race-replacement of a community’s or nation’s traditional population through the imposition of excessive racially/ethnoculturally-incompatible immigration is potentially prosecutable under the same definitions and provisions as Prof. Ziv.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 04:03 AM | #


Yeah, well, I still use “genocide”.  See isthatlegal.org

I will take your point under advisement.

Posted by ben tillman on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 05:33 AM | #


I would certainly like to see Ziv charged, tried, convicted, and sentenced by a legally convened tribunal on charges of promoting genocide.

While that is, unfortunately, unlikely to occur, at least not in the foreseeable future, it would still be a productive exercise to draw up charges against Ziv (and others like him).  The utility would be in the educational and propaganda benefits, and to underscore the seriousness of the situation to those who may in the future wish to promote genocide themselves.

To be done effectively, this would require a person(s) with a legal background and/or someone very familiar with the processes and terminology of “crimes against humanity"-type prosecutions.

Posted by prosecutorial brute on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 01:41 PM | #


I agree one thousand percent with Brute:  this specific tactic ought to be at the top of our side’s agenda.  Of course nothing will come of it ... in the immediate term.  But neither did any good come of organized Jewish efforts to race-replace Eurochristians ... in 1924.  They didn’t stop trying, but quietly toiled away day and night for decades ... 

Then came 1965. 

These things going on around us are in large part the results of years, nay decades of relentless hard work by dedicated activists.  The litigation-in-the-courts route has been astoundingly successful for the other side starting a hundred years ago.  Our side has been way too lax in pursuing this strategy.  We should start right now, and we should start with pressing genocide charges against Ziv specifically and anyone promoting race-replacement immigration:  charges exactly along the lines of the definition of genocide and list of offenses in the U.N. documents excerpted in the discussion above.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 02:02 PM | #


“The utility would be in the educational and propaganda benefits, and to underscore the seriousness of the situation to those who may in the future wish to promote genocide themselves.” (—Brute)

Of course, and included among the “educational and propaganda benefits” of such a prosecution is the fact well-known to modern experts in propaganda from the Bolsheviks to the Nazis to present-day Hollywood and organized Jewry to you-name-it:  the more you “name” something in public, the more you “pronounce” something publicly, the more matter-of-fact it seems.  We’re being crushed right now under all sorts of outrages, merely because they’ve been repeated, “named,” “pronounced” so much by the other side that everyone has come to accept them — a century-old propaganda technique.  Well, it’s time our side started naming, pronouncing, repeating a few ripostes for a change, and let everyone come to accept those.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 02:24 PM | #


“We should start right now, and we should start with pressing genocide charges against Ziv specifically...”

Agreed.  What’s needed are three things initially: someone with the specific skills and/or training to produce a legally sound document, a place to which to house the document (MR?), and, lastly, people (including MR participants) willing to consistently advertise the existence of the document.

In that order.

Posted by crusading prosecutor brute on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 03:25 PM | #


See here:
http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/mil-2ai011029e.htm

This seems to be a format for such indictments.

Posted by prosecute ziv brute on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 03:42 PM | #


The above-quoted comment by Steven P., about his wife getting into trouble trying to justify her use of the term ‘genocide’, reminds me that we really need a list of arguments that less-educated people (like myself) can learn or go back to in times of need to ensure that we can get our points across well. At the moment anyone who is concerned by MR issues must spend hours going through posts and comments to find the information he or she needs.  All of the most compelling pieces of information are terribly hard to find being mostly comments.
All this talent needs organizing so that others can make use of it.

Posted by Englander on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 03:45 PM | #


Englander,

Maybe the way to address your request is to grow a list of personal experiences in the form of reader comments on a dedicated thread that could be linked on the side bar under Important Issues heading, just as the Ziv post now is.

If you or anyone else thinks that would be worthwhile I will put up a post to kick it off.

On the Ziv question, I think a very careful examination of the issue by a legal mind is the first step.  There likely is a racial defensive benefit to be got out of propagandising the soft genocidalism involved, but no point in making this very strong claim without a pretty solid legal foundation.

I don’t know if ben would consider himself competent to address issues normally addressed in the (very liberal and self-evidently globalist) International Court of Justice.  But that’s the scale of things, and it’s a long way from our callow speculations.  Ben, in any case, has more legal knowledge than I, and at the very least I would want his view before we committed to commissioning and/or housing the relevant documentation.

Posted by Guessedworker on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 04:09 PM | #


Englander,

All you need is Darwin, the Descent of Man, Chapter VII - On the Races of Man, On the Extinction of the Races of Man.-

Extinction follows chiefly from the competition of tribe with tribe, and race with race. Various checks are always in action, serving to keep down the numbers of each savage tribe,- such as periodical famines, nomadic habits and the consequent deaths of infants, prolonged suckling, wars, accidents, sickness, licentiousness, the stealing of women, infanticide, and especially lessened fertility. If any one of these checks increases in power, even slightly, the tribe thus affected tends to decrease; and when of two adjoining tribes one becomes less numerous and less powerful than the other, the
contest is soon settled by war, slaughter, cannibalism, slavery, and absorption. Even when a weaker tribe is not thus abruptly swept away, if it once begins to decrease, it generally goes on decreasing until it becomes extinct.*

Mass migration, low fertility, stir and voila, extinction.

Posted by Desmond Jones on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 04:26 PM | #


“On the Ziv question, I think a very careful examination of the issue by a legal mind is the first step.”

Agreed.  There are a number of issues involved here, and a full analysis is needed.  I think the overall point is that the idea needs to be at least studied.

From a logical standpoint, miscgenationist propaganda would seem at least at first glance to be:

* (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

* (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

For example, one of the methods used by “Arabs” (or varying degrees of “purity") to attack Negroes in the zone of North African-subSaharan African convergence is via rape of Negro women - particularly in cultures where group identity is determined by patrilineage.

Thus, not only are pureblooded Negroes being prevented from being produced in these nations (eg, Sudan, I believe is an example), but the hybrids produced are identified with the Arab strain.

Propaganda, particularly one-sided propaganda (and especially if said propaganda persists after the logical and factual flaws within it are made clear) can be viewed as a form of mental/emotional coercion.  Coupled with enforced integration you get:

“ conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part...”

The basic problem here is one of political power and not of logic.  Take Saddam: he is certainly not the only leader on the world stage guilty of “war crimes”; but leaders of powerful nations who are beyond the hand of justice cannot be indicted.

Similarly, because the globalist elite support white dissolution, and encourage miscegenation involving whites, they can hardly be expected to agree that a person advocating their own philosophy is guilty of crimes against humanity.

Whatever input Ben can give will be helpful.  What we really need (and if Ben has any “behind the scenes” connections that can be helpful) is to find a “rightist” legal expert, with knowledge in this area, to examine the validity of this case.  It may be that they may say “yes, you have a point, but the practical reality is that it’s useless”, or he may say “the wording/interpretation of the wording is such that it only favors minority rights”, or he may say that the “interpretation is for punishment of actions, not words” - leaving open why Streicher was executed after WWII - , or he may declare the whole thing is too vague.  Or, he may agree that, while nothing practical can be done, the logic of the complaint stands, and it is valid and worthy of further analysis.

Who knows?  But there is no doubt that encouraging people to produce mixed-race children will decrease the production of pure-breds, and since “partial” destruction of a group, including “prevention of births” is CLEARLY written as part of the definition of genocide, it is difficult to understand how someone twisting facts to promote this is “innocent” of the attempt to decrease numbers of the targeted group.

At the very least, the issue needs to be examined and explained by an individual or individuals conversant with international law and international crimes tribunals.

So, yes let us get a professional examination of the issues.  Another option is to “hand off” the project to a “pro-white” group with a stronger connection to the sorts of professionals needed to examine this case. 

Does anyone know of any group, legal team, etc. that would be willing to adopt this project and invest the energies needed to ascertain whether or not the definitions of genocide as listed by international organizations can be construed as to include attempts to at least partially dissolve racial groups through admixture?

Posted by pondering thoughtful brute on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 04:51 PM | #


“ Ben, in any case, has more legal knowledge than I, and at the very least I would want his view before we committed to commissioning and/or housing the relevant documentation. “

Well, yes, we already stated that the first step would need to be having a lawyer look at the issue.  If the current structure of law is insufficient to cover “soft genocide” as you put it, then, obviously nothing more remains that to simply continue what has already been taking place on cyberspace (including this post and thread): a systematic deconstuction and refutuation of Ziv’s thesis, and an analysis of potential motives (for example, “malice” was cited in the original post as one possible motive).

With respect though to the question: does the author of this book himself realize that the “thesis” is subversive of group preservation, we need only look once again at what Ziv wrote:

“Since you are a member of a website that advocates the preservation of a single race I’m not surprised that you don’t agree with my thesis. “

In other words, Mr. Ziv states that he expects that a person interested in preserving a race would, normally, object to the content of his work.  Why would that be so?  Because, as mixing would alter the race, the thesis proposed works against the preservation of any single race.  That is clear, and it is equally clear, from the quote, that Mr. Ziv has an understanding that his thesis is not compatible with a desire to promote, and I quote: “the preservation of a single race.”

What is the antonym for “preservation?”

Posted by mcbrutey on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 05:09 PM | #


I really wonder about the chances of finding a rightist human rights lawyer!  Also, has there ever been a prosecution accepted for anything other than the hard definitions of genocide?  Trying to create precedent of any sort - never mind one of this nature - is a game for the very brave, the very certain or the very misguided, and potentially all three!

The reality is that 2 to 4-year legal battles fought all the way through Appeal without the benefit of public funding cost several hundred thousand if not millions of dollars - and that’s if one wins!  Lose and it’s a meltdown.

The only ways to raise the substantial funding are to find wealthy backers - something WN has consistently failed to do for forty years - or to successfully establish a donations-based fighting fund.  The latter might be possible if every single branch of WN was fully supportive and willing to appeal to its membership.  But no such support would be forthcoming without there being a damned good case in law.

If we agree at the outset to limit the objective to propaganda, and forego creating precedent, then the legal grounding can remain more speculative.  The problem of finding a fair-minded expert remains, however.

Paul Fromm might be a useful person to consult on the latter.

Posted by Guessedworker on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 05:39 PM | #


Englander,

Maybe the way to address your request is to grow a list of personal experiences in the form of reader comments on a dedicated thread that could be linked on the side bar under Important Issues heading, just as the Ziv post now is.

If you or anyone else thinks that would be worthwhile I will put up a post to kick it off.

I think it would be worthwhile. For a start.
In my opinion, the very best writing on this subject (that I have found online) is happening in the comments section of this site. Many of the contributors are brilliant, and if I had half the knowledge they do I would be creating a polished website where such superbly articulated viewpoints would be sorted and easy to find. We need a pro-white super-site. Free of vulgarity and with very high standards. Something that ordinary people won’t be frightened of.
Just above this post are comments about funding for human rights trials. This and all other goals that we wish to see fulfilled rely on better public understanding of our position. It never ceases to amaze me how much talent there is in the pro-white movement, but at the same time I see little in the way of effort to really harness the power of the internet. Amren is probably the best that we have right now, but it could be better. It is still little more than a discussion blog (with some really great articles below the surface) and I feel that this format is only attractive to those already on our side, and those who are just as passionate about attacking us.

Posted by Englander on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 06:43 PM | #


“If we agree at the outset to limit the objective to propaganda, and forego creating precedent...”

Of course, no one here is actually expecting the case to be heard in any tribunal under the current multiculturalist global establishment.  Very limited objective.

“...then the legal grounding can remain more speculative.”

No, you would need a firm grounding even for a project restricted to education/propaganda.  All the “i’s” need to be dotted and all the “t’s” need to be crossed; this is not something to be done half-assed.  What you’d want is a case that COULD be presented to a fair tribunal, if one existed.  That there is no such tribunal to hear a properly constructed case would be yet another indictment of the system.

“The problem of finding a fair-minded expert remains, however.”

Agreed, and that’s why we are asking for assistance here.  Anyone know Fromm well enough so as to get a response from the fellow?

Here’s a point.  IF the case is worth pursuing, then an interested foundation (NPI??) could consider investing in it, with the idea that, not only would it be “doing the right thing”, but would allow the group in question to have publicity, etc.

If the case is in fact worthless, then, no one, even if they had the ability to pursue it, would do so.

The major question then is identifying any groups that would have the capacity for this project in its limited objective, and, if such exist, follow up with the proposal to see if it has any chance of success and if they are interested.

A preliminary examination by someone like Ben would be useful to see if there is anything here at all.

Posted by properly grounded brute on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 07:02 PM | #


brute: Of course, no one here is actually expecting the case to be heard in any tribunal under the current multiculturalist global establishment.

But let’s evaluate the utility of a purely rhetorical “victory”.  Whereas the establishment of legal precedent would stop Zivism at source, the rhetorical approach leaves us in the same game as now - trying to get the word out.  It would be a new word, I admit, but the same old, narrow methodology.  We already know it’s not enough.

Precedent, should it be established, is an open road.  The human rights artistes use it continually to expand their reach.  It doesn’t take a genius to see that the acknowledgement that whites must be protected from deliberate attempts to advance genetic mixing opens the way to broader defences based on the ultimate guarantor of genetic preservation: land.

Law is better than rhetorics.  I would not wish to dictate from the outset that we have no real interest in it.  If the child can be sat on the back of the tiger, the next thing to see is how far it can ride.

Posted by Guessedworker on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 08:58 PM | #


This gentleman might consider taking the case :

http://ianandersonadvocate.com/index.html

Posted by Al Ross on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 10:54 PM | #


I think it’s worth doing regardless of prospects for success in the immediate term.  Those prospects are nil but every step by us in a forward direction chips, chips, chips away at the walls of our oppenents’ meticulously-constructed fortress.  When victory finally comes we or those to whom we’ll have passed the sacred baton will look back and say, “this is where our victory started; here is the seed from which it grew.” The other side didn’t overthrow normalness and entire races in a day; neither shall we succeed overnight in undoing all the evil they’ve wrought.  But with patience and perseverence we shall prevail because truth, the only standard to which we repair, always prevails.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 11:01 PM | #


“I don’t know if ben would consider himself competent to address issues normally addressed in the (very liberal and self-evidently globalist) International Court of Justice.”

I spent a week at the ICJ this fall but was not *before* the ICJ.  We were there for an arbitration, and our “judge” was a solicitor from the City of London who had selected the ICJ’s small courtroom as the venue.  And it was a splendid venue.  I would love to go back. 

Regarding my competence, I see it less as a matter of competence than as a matter of resources and reputation.  If you want someone to brief the issues, then I am your man, but I can’t set aside my other work to take on such a large project gratis.  And there is a lot to be said for the value of the prestige attending someone like the Ian Anderson mentioned by Al Ross. 

Having said all that, I doubt that a private party can institute criminal charges under the treaty.  Under Canada’s genocide law, not even a prosecutor can level charges; the proceeding has to be initiated by a bureaucrat in the central government.

This sounds like a fun project, but it’s just one of many unfunded legal activism projects that I would love to pursue.  At this point, I am inclined to focus on things closer to home—and things that have the potential to pay for themselves. 

James Bowery—take note!—I think a fruitful project may be litigating the rights of American tech workers whose jobs have been outsourced or who have been replaced by imported foreigners.  The beauty of this project is that it will play well to black jurors as well as whites. 

There are sound legal arguments to be directed against any number of the offenses committed against our people, but the problem continues to be funding.  I intend to contact the NPI in the next couple of weeks to see whether its benefactor has any interest in expanding the Instutute’s efforst into legalactivism.  Perhaps it would help if some of you also made the suggestion.

Posted by ben tillman on Thursday, January 4, 2007 at 04:13 PM | #


Fred’s post at 11:01 is well said.  This is a marathon.  Our people have failed collectively for several generations so the fix will not come easily or quickly.  Much painful labor is needed to birth a renewed European Man.

This whole thread is very positive.  We need to act - boldly and rationally - in the best tradition of our race.  As the enemy keeps handing us rope we need to start fashioning it into a noose for them and no longer for us.

Posted by wjg on Thursday, January 4, 2007 at 05:01 PM | #


I did contact NPI and suggested that they take a look at the potential activism raised by the last dozen or so comments on this thread.  I also suggested they pay close attention to whatever suggestions made to them in the future by Ben, who is one of the finest commentators on this or any other blog.

Anyone (and it should be someone of “status") who wishes to contact Anderson should do so once someone (NPI, Ben?) lets us know whether the ideas discussed here have any merit whatsoever.

“James Bowery—take note!—I think a fruitful project may be litigating the rights of American tech workers whose jobs have been outsourced or who have been replaced by imported foreigners.  The beauty of this project is that it will play well to black jurors as well as whites.”

That’s a fine idea.

In the future, when a significant fraction of high-IQ (and healthily ethnocentric) whites get a solid understanding of EGI, we can look forward, perhaps, to a legal redress for compensating all the lost “child equivalents” due to alien immigration.

A thought to warm your heart on a cold winter’s day.

Posted by Sir Salty of Frank on Thursday, January 4, 2007 at 09:54 PM | #


Hi Guys! Here\’s a suggestion:

What about compiling a large word file or PDF, which functions as an FAQ for the movement. In this file, every single individual question posed by anti-racist left would be answered in the most lucid possible language.

The arguments of MacDonald, Salter, Taylor (his dissection of the racial spoils system), Brimelow (on immigration\’s consequences), and all other greats would be concisely summarized and made digestible to a person of slightly-above-average intelligence.

All sticking points (Nordic-Med, Eugenics, Supremacy/colonization, certain tangential aspects of Feminism) would be elided over, so to speak, so that the main thrust of the ideological content could penetrate the reader\’s brain with maximum efficiency.

If such a file was well researched, meticulously worded and argued, with all sources cited, and a clear and readable format, it could then be translated into Dutch, French, Russian, etc.

We would then have a solidified ideological corpus to refer to when arguing against leftists.

What say you, fellow MRers?

Posted by PF on Friday, January 5, 2007 at 12:01 AM | #


Sorry to do a tandem post, I know its more polite to wait for responses, but heres an example:

Section I. Race.

\"Race does not exist.\”
- counterargument

\"Races exist, but race does not matter.\”
- counterargument

\"Races exist, but differences are skin deep.\”
- counterargument

\"Race exists, and it matters, but for a political
system to acknowledge race, is immoral.\”
-counterargument
[The only political systems where race is not acknowledged are white states where the majority is not allowed to advocate its own interests...etc. etc.]

II. Miscegenation - examples can be taken from this discussion.

and so on and so on.

Posted by PF on Friday, January 5, 2007 at 12:15 AM | #


PF,

The suggestions that you and Englander make are interesting, and we would certainly support an effort to build such a resource.  But for something authoritive and useful to emerge quite a few man hours will be involved, and as with the movie review idea the problem is getting someone to operate as the lynchpin.

I don’t know how much more I can do get the word across: OK, we’ll support the idea, create the sub-blog to house it, contribute what intellectual resources we can. But ... someone has to have the drive and the time to take under his wing and do the main spadework.

That’s where the thing tends to come unstuck.  Where are the willing workers?

Posted by Guessedworker on Friday, January 5, 2007 at 12:30 AM | #


Guessedworker,

Point taken. As regards the \"corpus of refutations\” idea, one would just have to rewrite the arguments presented on this site, to a large extent. The comments \"generate themselves\” and would just have to be formalized.

Anyway, its an area where real service could be done, and I will ponder to myself what I can do, without making any hasy proclamations here and now. Another bonus of having a formalized document is that it can be cited and sent around, whereas the Culture of Critique cannot be so readily exchanged[yet/as far as I know]. And it proclaims that we take ourselves seriously enough to issue a formal document - which is at least an attempt at respectability.

I really liked Fred Scrooby\’s comment about 1924 and 1965. It really made things clear for me. Things can change, we wont be stuck forever in this moment. Anyway, cheers guys, heres to everyone waking up in 2007.

Posted by PF on Friday, January 5, 2007 at 12:53 AM | #


I can volunteer to do some of the legwork on PF’s suggestion.  When I finish my law school applications (within the next week or so, God willing) I should have some more free time that I could commit to answering some of the specific anti-racist claims.

I’d offer to help with the movie reviews, but that’s not really my cup of tea. I tend not to watch very many movies and I have an extremely low tolerance for anti-white crap.

Posted by Andy Wooster on Friday, January 5, 2007 at 01:49 AM | #


Tuesday, July 25, 2006
“The Evils of Miscegenation” by Thomas Fairweather
A lot of people probably do not understand the word miscegenation. Basically it means race-mixing or racial-mixed marriages. “Miscegenation” comes from the Latin miscere, “to mix” and genus, “race”.[1] It is something which most people in today’s society do not even raise an eyebrow about. But only a few decades ago in the United States of America miscegenation was illegal. In fact, even an American President by the name of Warren G. Harding was totally against the idea of miscegenation and had mentioned it in a speech that he did. As this is an opinion piece I will give my own views on the issues. Personally I find miscegenation to be abhorrent, something that deluded liberal-minded people do who only see them selves plainly as being “human-beings” rather than humans of a particular race/ethnic group.

They do understand their heritage

Read more....... http://www.newrightausnz.org/articles/theevilsofmiscegenation.html

Posted by Welf on Sunday, January 14, 2007 at 12:13 PM | #


I just stumbled upon this site. Read through it quickly and found it intriguing.

I embrace the overarching theme here which is the importance of preserving our people, nation, civilization. Now, it seems to me that race (white), religion (Christianity), and heritage (western Europe) are all quite important in this regard. I’m not sure why there is so much fixation on science in that discussion. I will return to this below.

I have some queries that if one of the more informed of the posters might help, it would assist me in my own understanding of the issues being raised here.

One, how does the “scientific fact” of the existence of races add or detract from what we experience as a people to be real. Is science somehow the arbiter of what exists in the totality of human experience?

Two, if Ziv were to be correct, Heaven forbid, and there were to be this explosion of interracial marriages/breeding, and biological markers were to disappear, would that render your work obsolete? In other words, even if race were destroyed as a meaningful biological fact, does that mean it does not remain an ontological one for man, notably the few white Europeans who might remain?

Three, because it appears to me not to be a “scientific issue”, but rather one of ontological proportions, race as a component, albeit an important one, of the broader Peoplehood (i.e., the American people as essentially white Christians of western European origin and outlook) established in existence appears far more fundamental and overarching. While in declaratory form, that was mean6 as a query.

Four, and far more trivial, what does it mean in the scientific lexicon to say that something is “better”? For example, the book reviewer noted something along the way about certain features being prettier? But for a scientist, and I profess some expertise in science but not this discipline, how does one determine that? Is this some “universal” scale or has one been developed as valid for “whites” or “North Americans”? Similarly, what does “vigor” mean? As a scientist it would seem that even to suggest that a longer life is more “vigorous” is outside of scientific purview? Might a biological evolutionist (I am not one) say that a shorter life for the individuals might very well be more vigorous for the species since it facilitates adaptability? How does a scientist strictly speaking “value” these matters with any theoretical integrity?

Finally, I note someone said a scientist does not, as a scientist, recognize races, only the human race. It would seem to me that it is deeper than that. A scientist, one who accepts fundamentally the notion first really developed by Descartes of the symbolic mathematization of all of existence would have a hard time defending ontologically distinctions between any matter any where any time. He might find interesting quantifiable distinctions between things (i.e., the lengthy artical posted under “ethnic genetic interests”, but those distinctions as a matter of science are neither here nor there.

All the best, and thanks for the reply in advance,

JK

Posted by jklein on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 at 06:56 PM | #


“One, how does the “scientific fact” of the existence of races add or detract from what we experience as a people to be real. Is science somehow the arbiter of what exists in the totality of human experience?”

Science is a more objective way of looking at, and understanding, reality than subjective “faith” or your odd ramblings.  I do understand where people afraid of truth may eschew science.  Better to believe what you want to be true, than what is, to the best of our ability to understand, actually true.  Right?

“Two, if Ziv were to be correct, Heaven forbid, and there were to be this explosion of interracial marriages/breeding, and biological markers were to disappear, would that render your work obsolete? In other words, even if race were destroyed as a meaningful biological fact, does that mean it does not remain an ontological one for man, notably the few white Europeans who might remain?”

If “biological markers” were to disappear and if “race were destroyed as a meaningful biological fact”, then there would not be any “few white Europeans”, remaining, would there?  As long as any whites exist, the white race still exists (albeit in diminished form) and those whites have an interest in the well being of their (small) race.  If the white race were to completely disappear it would not exist as any sort of “fact”, except a historical one.

“Three, because it appears to me not to be a “scientific issue”, but rather one of ontological proportions...”

You are probably the only one who understands what you are talking about - assuming of course that you yourself have any idea of what you are writing here.

“While in declaratory form, that was mean6 as a query.”

Brilliant.  You are ready to post on Stormfront.

“Four, and far more trivial, what does it mean in the scientific lexicon to say that something is “better”?

Contributing to genetic contunuity/expansion.

“Finally, I note someone said a scientist does not, as a scientist, recognize races, only the human race.”

Right.  Because you “note” that “someone” said that, then it must be a statement of great utility and validity. 

“A scientist, one who accepts fundamentally the notion first really developed by Descartes of the symbolic mathematization of all of existence would have a hard time defending ontologically distinctions between any matter any where any time.”

Hmmm...a scientific “ontology” can argue that “existence” and “matter” are quantized phenomena, but the point with respect to this blog eludes me.

“He might find interesting quantifiable distinctions between things (i.e., the lengthy artical posted under “ethnic genetic interests”, but those distinctions as a matter of science are neither here nor there.”

What’s an “artical” and what happened to the closing parenthesis?

So, what in your opinion is “here of there?” If you reject quantifiable distinctions (a fundamental basis of scientific observation) what are we then left with - what you “note” that “someone said?”

Posted by ontological brute on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 at 08:24 PM | #


PF on Friday, January 5, 2007 says: “What about compiling a large word file or PDF, which functions as an FAQ for the movement. In this file, every single individual question posed by anti-racist left would be answered in the most lucid possible language.”

Without quarreling about the proposal and its value, it does point up the dangers of using the ideological frame provided by our adversaries, to wit, they are the “anti-racist left” and we are what? The “pro-racist right”? I think not.

We at Resisting Defamation prefer to refer to these guys as “left-wing racialists.” These guys are some of the most racist people in the world, they just mask it because they are racist against Euroman.

Let’s not give them the “anti-racist left” label which they want when they are really the “left-wing racialists.”

********************

In addition, I would like to suggest that we attack with the small end of the wedge, not the big edge and race is probably the single biggest issue there is. Here are some examples of issues we could use as smaller ends of the wedge.

1) The lack of specific programs (this is in California, after all) for white kids hooked on tobacco. There is a massively funded operation for every other ethnicity, and white kids now have the highest rate of tabacco use in the USA as compared with other ethnicities.

2) The lack of specific programs to intervene in meth use. This is a distinctly white drug of choice on the West Coast, and there is not one program dedicated to helping these white kids get off it. In the meantime, there are bunches of programs helping kids in other ethnic groups get free of their drugs of choice. White kids have only the police.

3) School drop-out rates for white kids. There are plenty of white kids dropping out of school, but there are no programs for white kids.

4) White homeless people have no program in place to help them. Serving pork soup sounds like a great idea.

Posted by Bo Sears on Thursday, January 18, 2007 at 01:41 AM | #


How does the “scientific fact” of the existence of races add or detract from what we experience as a people to be real. Is science somehow the arbiter of what exists in the totality of human experience?  (—J. Klein)

J. Klein is asking if we have to wait till science “proves” that forced race-replacement is a legitimate cause for concern before expressing concern.  No, for a couple of reasons: 

1) Scientific and philosophical reflection prior to 1953 (the year of Watson & Crick’s discoveries concerning DNA’s structure) stretching back to Aristotle made clear there were races with different characteristics at least partly inborn whose members didn’t necessarily want them changed.  It didn’t need post-1953 molecular genetics to “prove” it:  for two-and-a-half thousand years it was proven soundly enough.  Molecular genetics could help to rout modern race-denying sophistries but wasn’t necessary to “prove” race.  Many things prove race, all but that one in existence prior to 1953, some since hundreds of years B.C. 

In a related vein, common sense and the obvious are not “assumed false until proven by science,” despite what the left wants everyone to think.  Quite the contrary, common sense and the obvious are accorded full credit until disproven by science.  Science never disproved race, whether “classical” race or “modern molecular-genetic” race.  There was never a reason not to accord full credit to both, whether in the time of Aristotle, or in the year 1952, or in the year 2007. 

2) The other side simply denies what it doesn’t like by extending sophistries to cover that particular matter:  they’ll deny two-plus-two then go home and sleep like a baby.  So, science isn’t what’s being argued.  In fact, nothing’s being “argued”:  there’s no argument, only assertion, by them, of what their grasping little Freudian ids want and demand.  Demand away:  you can’t have it.

[I]f Ziv were to [prevail, would] the few white Europeans who might remain [constitute a viable race]?  (—idem)

Let’s cross that bridge when we come to it.  Thermodynamically it will be much harder for Jewish academics like Ziv, Richard Lewontin, Stephen Jay Gould, and the rest to totally destroy the Euro race than to partially damage it the way something partly moth-eaten is damaged (accomplishing that sort of damage by persuading weak-minded dupes like Heidi Crumb to divert racial reproductive energy and four-hundred-thousand-year-old racial genetic capital away from “breeding true” and toward breeding interspecies hybrids).  Successfully nibbling away at the white race’s edges by “getting at” its weak spots like Heidi Dummkopf, Angelina Laide, and President George “The Chimp” Bush can be accomplished on the part of these Jewish academics with relatively low cost in energy input.  Finishing the job with actual final eradication of whites would require massive energy inputs, so massive it’s not likely to be feasible.  Of course stupendous genetic damage can be inflicted in the attempt, such as the sort of damage inflicted on the right whale population and the bison herds through almost extinguishing them as species.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Thursday, January 18, 2007 at 03:33 AM | #


PF:
“What about compiling a large word file or PDF, which functions as an FAQ for the movement. In this file, every single individual question posed by anti-racist left would be answered in the most lucid possible language.”

that’s a good idea, let’s start a thread to see what MR readers think should be included in that big FAQ page. The opposition forum of Stormfront is in theory a good place to debate and to destroy the arguments of the anti-racist dimwits but there’s just too many topics and the same stupid questions keep being asked over and over, it never stops.

A blog like MR is a better place to debate misguided whites or our racial opponents.

The last time a bunch of anti-white libertardians tried to win the debate over race and the West they did not do very well.

http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/samidioting/

Posted by JB on Thursday, January 18, 2007 at 04:43 AM | #


Bo Sears wrote:

We at Resisting Defamation prefer to refer to these guys as “left-wing racialists.” These guys are some of the most racist people in the world, they just mask it because they are racist against Euroman.

You would be much wiser to dump “racism” as a serious word.  We should not accept “racist” as a label for ourselves and we should not apply it to others.

Posted by Rnl on Thursday, January 18, 2007 at 05:58 AM | #


Interracial mixing has been going on for thousands and thousands of years and the evidence to support this is all around you in form of diversity that prevails among people today. Keep in mind that that there are cultures all over the world whose foundations have built on the basis of interracial mixing of pople over thousands and thousands of years. So to present so called scientific evidence in a feeble attempt to show that interracial mixing is something that should be avoided is sort of hypocrical. Don’t you think so? It flies flat in the face of thousands of years of human intermixing and diversity that is obvious and right in front of you.

If you are attempting to present something even close to a scientific evidence arguing that interracial mixing should be avoided , please state the obvious first. That obvious fact is: “interracial mixing has been prevelent among humans for thousands and thousands of years and that foundations of many cultures and belief systems have been based on interracial mixing.”

Given the context of this website, I feel compelled to say that many westerners tend to talk about race issues with arrogance and superiority. They forget that throughout the civilized history of the world (last 5 thousands years or so) India and China have dominated the world economically, scientifically, and culturally. Western dominence is just a blip in the civilized history of human race. And given the way India and China are starting to wake up, history may just regard the current period (what is referred to as Morden Era) as an aberration over consistant cultural, ecoomic, and scientific dominance by India and China.

Westerners are already starting to migrate to India and China for finding jobs. Go to Gurgaon, a place next to a small city of 10 million people where I grew up (Delhi), See who works in the call centers that are popping up all over the place in Gurgaon. If you are worried about asians immigrating into your country and spoiling your genetic pool, wait another 15 years, you will be more preoccupied with westerns spoiling their genetic pool by moving to India and China. Will you guys be presenting scientific facts to prevent emigration then?

Good luck and have a nice life.

Posted by AlbertPinto on Monday, February 26, 2007 at 07:07 AM | #


“They forget that throughout the civilized history of the world (last 5 thousands years or so) India and China have dominated the world economically, scientifically, and culturally.”

One cannot forget something that did not happen. How on Earth could India and China have dominated the world at any time over the last 5000 years?  How many Indians and Chinese were in Europe 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 years ago? Even the Europeans did not dominate the world until the last three hundred years or so.
Anyway, the population of India before the British liberated India was about 100 million. Now it is 1000 million, so about 9 in every 10 Indians owe their existence to the British and their Empire.
99% of science and technology has come about through the efforts and ingenuity of white men of European extraction. 95% still is.

Posted by martin_uk on Sunday, March 4, 2007 at 11:42 PM |