Cavalli-Sforza, John Ray and losing that thread

Posted by John S Bolton on May 30, 2005, 11:40 PM | #

In terms of genetic distance, the average in India should be around half the maximum genetic distance that is found. If one is to use typologies and great races as groups with boundaries and mixed race poulations between them, the Turks and Turkic peoples in general would be the mixed group between the Europeans and the Mideasterners. Caucasoid and Europid as used by population geneticists, have been enlarged to include mideasterners and Indians.

Posted by John Ray on May 31, 2005, 12:47 AM | #

I have just put up the following comment on the original thread:

I have already devoted a huge amount of time to this comment thread so I am going to have to call it a day.  Has anybody ever put up on a single thread as many posts as I have on this one?  Not often, I think.

Before I go however, let me cut a few throats with Occam’s razor:

The North/South color gradient in the subcontinent is mirrored by broadly similar gradients in two other very different longditudes-- from Scandinavia to equatorial Africa and from North China to Indonesia.

Nobody suggests that the Scandinavian population is the result of an original negro population being conquered and nobody suggests that the fair North Chinese are the result of an original Indonesian population being invaded.

So why does anyone insist that the fairer Northern subcontinenental population is the result of a Dravidian population being conquered?

An application of Occams razor would suggest that the colour gradient in all three cases is some sort of climatic effect.

Posted by Arcane on May 31, 2005, 02:36 AM | #

I think JJ Ray may have just gotten his words in a bundle on this. Nowadays, what is called a “race” in popular culture has little or no scientific basis. Sometimes ethnic groups, or nationalities, or cultures, are called “races.” The term “caucasoid” has now become synonymous not with a racial group, but rather with those of European origin.

When JJ Ray said “brown Europeans,” I think he meant “brown caucasoids,” since the term “caucasoid"," used by physical anthropologists and geneticists, is generally synonymous with “Indo-European,” which is a term used mainly in linguistic circles.

And lets not kid ourselves… of course South Asians are genetically distinct from Europeans. All ethnic groups within the caucasoid race, and all other races, are genetically distinct from one another.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on May 31, 2005, 03:36 AM | #

“Nowadays, what is called a ‘race’ in popular culture has little or no scientific basis. Sometimes ethnic groups, or nationalities, or cultures, are called ‘races.’ The term ‘caucasoid’ has now become synonymous not with a racial group, but rather with those of European origin.” (—Arcane)

I’m sorry, I don’t understand this first paragraph, Arcane.  (I do understand, and I agree with, the last paragraph:  “[...Indian Subcontinentals] are genetically distinct from Europeans. All ethnic groups within the caucasoid race, and all other races, are genetically distinct from one another.”)

Posted by Sybach on May 31, 2005, 04:01 AM | #

Fred, I think he’s talking about how little the general populace really understands race, and how that’s reflected in popular culture. I’m American, so I can’t speak for other nations, but I’ve seen people argue vehemently that anybody they see with dark skin is a “Negro.” Perhaps this sort of ignorance is not particular to the people in my area…

Of course, that may not be what Arcane was referring to. My apologies if I have misinterpreted you, sir.

Posted by Arcane on May 31, 2005, 04:14 AM | #

Sybach has it. I was trying to explain how race is interpreted by popular culture as opposed to how it’s used by anthropologists and such.

Posted by Guessedworker on May 31, 2005, 06:48 AM | #

Arcane,

What you say is sobering.  I think it would benefit from an application of the scientific method itself, however.  It is too easy, and for those on the liberal-right or liberal-left too tempting, to step from:-

Nowadays, what is called a “race” in popular culture has little or no scientific basis

... into:-

Ordinary people do not understand the meaning of the word sufficiently to hold a valid opinion

or even:-

only scientifically-based opinion must be reflected in public policy

Scientism quickly devolves thereby into just another means by which to oppress the majority.  Our majority is quite sufficiently oppressed already.  Short of actual genocide what oppression is greater than a slow and ineluctable dispossession of the homeland, all normal, healthy human objection to which is officially delegitimised or banned by law?

I would like your reply to that last question, btw.

Posted by friedrich braun on May 31, 2005, 07:18 AM | #

John Ray has seen the following genetic study, right?

ABSTRACT

The origins and affinities of the ~1 billion people living on the subcontinent of India have long been contested. This is owing, in part, to the many different waves of immigrants that have influenced the genetic structure of India. In the most recent of these waves, Indo-European-speaking people from West Eurasia entered India from the Northwest and diffused throughout the subcontinent. They purportedly admixed with or displaced indigenous Dravidic-speaking populations. Subsequently they may have established the Hindu caste system and placed themselves primarily in castes of higher rank. To explore the impact of West Eurasians on contemporary Indian caste populations, we compared mtDNA (400 bp of hypervariable region 1 and 14 restriction site polymorphisms) and Y-chromosome (20 biallelic polymorphisms and 5 short tandem repeats) variation in ~265 males from eight castes of different rank to ~750 Africans, Asians, Europeans, and other Indians. For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians. However, 20%-30% of Indian mtDNA haplotypes belong to West Eurasian haplogroups, and the frequency of these haplotypes is proportional to caste rank, the highest frequency of West Eurasian haplotypes being found in the upper castes. In contrast, for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank. Nevertheless, the mitochondrial genome and the Y chromosome each represents only a single haploid locus and is more susceptible to large stochastic variation, bottlenecks, and selective sweeps. Thus, to increase the power of our analysis, we assayed 40 independent, biparentally inherited autosomal loci (1 LINE-1 and 39 Alu elements) in all of the caste and continental populations (~600 individuals). Analysis of these data demonstrated that the upper castes have a higher affinity to Europeans than to Asians, and the upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are the lower castes. Collectively, all five datasets show a trend toward upper castes being more similar to Europeans, whereas lower castes are more similar to Asians. We conclude that Indian castes are most likely to be of proto-Asian origin with West Eurasian admixture resulting in rank-related and sex-specific differences in the genetic affinities of castes to Asians and Europeans.

http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/6/994

Posted by J Richards on May 31, 2005, 09:21 AM | #

John Jay Ray,

There is not just a North-South skin color gradient in India, but a complex gradient concerning facial features, too, which is correlated with skin color.  Furthermore, within any linguistic region, there is a between-castes skin-color gradient as well as a facial-feature gradient.  A minority of Hindoos have the facial features of Southern/Eastern Europeans, and among the majority of Hindoos, you can clearly see varying combinations of two other major influences, an aboriginal influence related to Southeast Asians and Australian aboriginals and a flat-faced Asian influence.  Can you make the case for climatic factors being responsible for the gradients in facial features, too? 

It is not feasible to list the evidence here, but other than the molecular evidence cited by JW, a tremendous amount of linguistic, historical, cultural, and religious evidence unambiguously points to European migrations to India, a major one being that of the Aryans, who were ultimately lost to race mixing.  Many nationalist Hindoos beat the dead horse of the relative lack of archeological evidence of the �Aryan Invasion,� but the chariot-riding Aryans with their superior physical build and military prowess would not have needed to fight a prolonged major war to subjugate the aboriginals/natives they encountered.  Nevertheless, there are passages available from the earliest known Hindoo text known as the Rigveda which mention contempt for black skin and celebrate the victories over the black-skinned natives.

[JW, you can find plenty of pictures of Hindoos to illustrate my point about the racial influences behind Hindoo phenotypes, and I hope that you post them, or I definitively will in a future post on Hindoo genetics and phenotypes.]

Posted by JW Holliday on May 31, 2005, 01:03 PM | #

I’m honestly relatively not so interested in posting pictures as I am with the genetic data.  So, I’ll let JR concentrate on South Asian phenotypes, and I’ll give some more of the molecular data. Below are more details, mostly on HLA studies.  While such studies are in my opinion not optimal, note that the findings match generally very well with both the SNP data and the Alu data from DNAP and Ray et al, as well as from the Y chromosome and mt DNA work, etc.  So, it is not any one study alone that is decisive, but all of these together, particularly with the overlap of findings:

Witt et al. (Tissue Antigens 60, 474-480, 2002) notes that the common haplotype HLA-B8-DR3 “in Northern India is different from that found in Europe.”

Later they state:

“The 58.1 AH appears to be present in India, as it is in the Chinese.  We speculate that the 58.1 AH may have been introduced into India as a result of population admixture with the Oriental races.”

Jaini et al. (Tissue Antigens 59, 487-491, 2002) did an extensive study of some HLA alleles in North Indians.  Some quotes from their paper:

“The study suggests a significant amount of genetic admixture in the North Indian population from other racial groups, with profound oriental influence.”

Note the words “significant” and “profound.”

Also:

“The extensive admixture from white, Oriental, and black races in this population is also evident from recent reports on the molecular diversity of HLA-A2, B27 and DR4.”

Note the word “extensive”, and the inclusion of “black” admixture.

Also:

“...an interesting admixture from various racial groups...”

“..an immense genetic admixture from the East and West of the subcontinent...”

“Furthermore, all of the haplotypes that occurred commonly in the Japanese were also observed in the North Indians.”

“...the results of the present study emphasize an increased influence of Oriental genes in this population.”

“An effect of admixture from the gene pool of black people is also evident....”

Note, North Indians are considered to be among “the whitest” of the South Asian populations.

Mehra et al. (Tissue Antigens 57, 502-507, 2001) - from the same Indian research group - looked at some alleles a year earlier.  In a North Indian population sample, two Oriental alleles were found at a frequency of 7.5% and 32.5%. respectively, while an allele commonly found in Negro groups was observed at a frequency of 15% in this sample.  Another allele found in 95% of the “HLA-A2 repertoire” of “Western Caucasians” was found at a frequency of only 3.8% in the North Indian sample. 

Jaini et al. (Hum. Immunol. 63, 24-29, 2002), looking at North Indians, cites:

“...extensive admixture in the Indian subcontinent.”

Shankarkumar et al. (Hum, Immunol. 63, 779-782, 2002) discusses the population of western India, described as partly:

“...Australoid or proto-Australoid...”

and having significant oriental alleles.  They also state that:

“The gene pool in the Indian subcontinent can best be described as a ‘melting pot of races....”

Gender-specific gene markers also demonstrate significant racial admixture, including from African sources (Ramana et al., Eur. J. Hum. Genet. 9, 695-700, 2001; Bamshad et al., Hum. Biol. 68, 1-28,
1996).

A Pakistani research group (Mohyuddin et al., Tissue Antigens 59, 492-501, 2002) studied Pakistani ethnic groups and concluded:

“The three-locus haplotypes found in the Pakistani populations suggest an influence from Caucasian and Oriental populations.”

Posted by Arcane on May 31, 2005, 06:21 PM | #

Guessed, you asked:
<objection to which is officially delegitimised or banned by law?

To be honest with you, I think that short of utter genocide that worst form of oppression would be living under a totalitarian, Marxist, national socialist, state. Your issue would come in a close third.

I think it’s quite tyrannical that free speech concerning issues of immigration and multiculturalism is verbotten in most European countries.

Posted by Amman on May 31, 2005, 07:04 PM | #

a tremendous amount of linguistic, historical, cultural, and religious evidence unambiguously points to European migrations to India, a major one being that of the Aryans, who were ultimately lost to race mixing.  Many nationalist Hindoos beat the dead horse of the relative lack of archeological evidence of the Aryan Invasion, but the chariot-riding Aryans with their superior physical build and military prowess would not have needed to fight a prolonged major war to subjugate the aboriginals/natives they encountered.  Nevertheless, there are passages available from the earliest known Hindoo text known as the Rigveda which mention contempt for black skin and celebrate the victories over the black-skinned natives. 

This is actually a fascinating subject. Before the invasion of the Aryans (which, according to my reading, occurred somewhere between 1800-1500 B.C) there is sizable evidence for an advanced civilization sitting in the Indus valley. The cities of Mohenjo-daro and Harappa are two of the best-known examples of this ancient civilization. Both feature blocks of houses laid out along a grid plan, centuries before the Greeks organized their cities in that manner. They also posessed complex drainage systems somewhat similar to Roman public water systems. The native population of India may not have been as strong as the Aryans militarily, but it does not seem they were at all “primitive.”

I should apologize for running off on a tangent like that--history happens to be my passion, so I often can’t stop myself when given the opportunity to discuss some ancient culture or another. I do think the history of the Aryans may provide us with some fascinating perspective on current affairs. Despite the severe restrictions against miscegenation and interbreeding (embodied within the caste system which still remains in India) the Aryans still ended up breeding themselves out of existence with the natives. If miscegenation really is as “unnatural” as many on this site claim it to be, I wonder why it occured to such an extent in a society which forbade it through law and custom?

Posted by friedrich braun on May 31, 2005, 07:33 PM | #

“To be honest with you, I think that short of utter genocide that worst form of oppression would be living under a totalitarian, Marxist, national socialist, state. Your issue would come in a close third.”

Of course, the National Socialists actually looked out for the interests of the German majority.

Posted by friedrich braun on May 31, 2005, 07:36 PM | #

“If miscegenation really is as “unnatural” as many on this site claim it to be, I wonder why it occured to such an extent in a society which forbade it through law and custom?”

Close racial proximity spells miscegenation (or genocide, as I prefer to call it); and it doesn’t matter what type of laws or customs you’ve got in place.

Posted by Amman on May 31, 2005, 07:45 PM | #

Close racial proximity spells miscegenation (or genocide, as I prefer to call it); and it doesn’t matter what type of laws or customs you’ve got in place.

A legitimate analysis, sir. Of course, one has to keep in mind that the Aryans were not native to India. Perhaps had they stayed in their part of the world (Around the Caucasus mountains, I believe) they might not have risked the threat of miscegenation which eventually consumed them. In a sense, then, perhaps you could say the Aryans committed genocide upon themselves when they invaded India.

Posted by JW Holliday on May 31, 2005, 08:58 PM | #

Amman:” If miscegenation really is as “unnatural” as many on this site claim it to be, I wonder why it occurred to such an extent in a society which forbade it through law and custom?”

If you read Baker’s “Race” he makes the point that domestication and captivity overcome natural inhibitions against inter-breeding and gives animal examples of this.  He then discusses humans as a very “domesticated” species, and how the trappings of civilization can cause natural inclinations against interbreeding to be overcome.  That is a very useful section of the book.

Note as well the situation in India (or in slavery in the USA) in which high-status males of one ethny have easy sexual access to females of an enslaved/conquered different ethny ("captivity").  Given the male sex drive, the male’s ‘spread the seed’ imperative, and the rationalizations these men must have done to say that any offspring would be kept in the slave class, it is not surprising to see male-mediated gene flow from higher to lower status ethnies.  That says something about how the establishment in America, with their racial double standards, media propaganda, affirmative action, etc have make blacks a higher status ethny in America (despite protestations to the contrary) - status being due to the perception (perhaps subconscious) of the females in question, not an “objective: evaluation of ability.  Meanwhile, Asian females may still perceive white males as being of higher status and the behavioral and cultural norms of Asian culture mitigate against seeing blacks as higher status.

Now, miscegenation can be viewed as unnatural as it works against speciation and the evolutionary specialization of gene-pools.

But that is irrelevant.  I do NOT care what people think is unnatural, NOR how they behave today or in then past.  The key is how they *should* be acting, in accordance with genetic interests, and this has been discussed here ad nauseum.

Posted by Amman on May 31, 2005, 09:24 PM | #

JWHolliday,

Thank you for the book recommendation. If you wouldn’t mind, could you give me its bibliographical data? I would like to see if my local library has it.

Meanwhile, Asian females may still perceive white males as being of higher status and the behavioral and cultural norms of Asian culture mitigate against seeing blacks as higher status.

I am not so sure this is true. Steve Sailer has written quite a few articles on this. Most of them can be seen here: http://www.isteve.com/Articles_Interracial_Marriage.htm One thing I noticed was that although black-Asian marriages are still comparatively rare, they are growing more common, and also, in terms of the sex ratio, Asian women are growing more and more fond of black men.

I do NOT care what people think is unnatural, NOR how they behave today or in then past.  The key is how they *should* be acting, in accordance with genetic interests, and this has been discussed here ad nauseum.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, sir. I am uninterested in how people should act, and more interested in how they have acted and how they do act.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on May 31, 2005, 09:27 PM | #

What race are you, Anonymous?

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 31, 2005, 10:04 PM | #

Perhaps had they stayed in their part of the world (Around the Caucasus mountains, I believe) they might not have risked the threat of miscegenation which eventually consumed them. In a sense, then, perhaps you could say the Aryans committed genocide upon themselves when they invaded India.

The Caucasians of central Asia also miscegenated. They are now Eurasians. The peoples from that region mixed with invading Mongoloids from the East. So if the “Aryans” had stayed back, they would have miscegenated but into a different race.

Posted by Amman on May 31, 2005, 10:07 PM | #

I see. But was that the reason the Aryans migrated into India? Why would they prefer to miscegenate with the dark-skinned Dravidians rather than the Mongoloids?

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 31, 2005, 10:14 PM | #

I don’t think the “Aryans” or anyone was thinking 4000 years in advance. I don’t think anyone can see 4,000 years in advance.

They were moving to greener pastures. India would have been an ideal place to migrate to back then with a small population of largely helpless natives, enormous stretches of arable land and plentiful water (and with none of the biting brutal winters of the steppes).

When a people get luxury and comfort, they become soft like modern day westerners.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 31, 2005, 10:21 PM | #

One thing that I have always found mystifying is that there is no dearth of people (especially among White Nationalists) who talk endelessly about the lost “Aryans”. But there are “Aryans” still around. A good chunk of Iran is predominantly “Aryan”.

The “Aryan” tribes that invaded India over several centuries would have been racially similar to modern day Persians.

Posted by Amman on May 31, 2005, 10:33 PM | #

They were moving to greener pastures. India would have been an ideal place to migrate to back then with a small population of largely helpless natives, enormous stretches of arable land and plentiful water (and with none of the biting brutal winters of the steppes).

Hmm...yes, I suppose it was a tempting target for a race of would-be conquerors. Still, I suppose from a white nationalist perspective, it’s depressing, in a weigh. The love of comfort and cheap land apparently triumphed over the desire for racial preservation when the Aryans came to India.

Posted by Amman on May 31, 2005, 10:34 PM | #

Whoops! I meant “way,” not “weight.” I really should get some sleep…

Posted by J Richards on June 01, 2005, 02:31 PM | #

Amman,

You have correctly pointed out that there was a pre-Aryan civilization in Northwestern India, and it flourished between 2,500 B.C. � 1,500 B.C.  I vaguely remember coming across information that several of the skulls found in the region and dating to this period are Caucasoid, and I also recall coming across information that a number of elements in this civilization matched the elements in early civilizations appearing in the Middle East.  It appears that this civilization was either in decline or was largely gone around the time the Aryans came to Northwestern India, i.e., the Aryans likely did not have much trouble subjugating the natives.  I referred to the Aryans confronting the aboriginals/natives in my previous post because I am not sure to what extent the pre-Aryan Caucasoids had absorbed the aboriginal types in their gene pool, possibly leading to the decline of their civilization.

As far as the Aryans breeding themselves out of existence goes, this in indeed a fascinating topic, which I will address at length sometime later.  As to how the Aryans bred themselves out of existence, the following rough and imaginary scenario likely applied.  Some of the white males had sex with the slave/subordinate women; virtually all of the white males also had sex with their white wives, too.  Such practice gave rise to mixed-race individuals that were closer to whites phenotypically.  After several generations, there were a number of non-white people who were close to looking white and some of the low-status white males could take as wives some of the non-white women who happened to be close to looking white.  The offspring of white males and close-to-looking-white non-white females were whiter-looking than their mothers and had an easier time marrying a white person of a higher status compared to their mothers, and some such cases did occur.  Therefore, over several generations, the genes of the original non-white race kept creeping into the white population, largely from the non-white female line, just as genes from the white population kept creeping into the non-whites, largely from the white male line.  However, the size of the non-white population was much larger.  The physical change in the original white population between any two successive generations was small and virtually unnoticeable, but these changes added up, and with the passage of time, the descendents of the original Aryans did not have any idea that they were no longer as white looking as they were, say, six generations ago.  Given an increasing number of mixed-race individuals, some of the white elite decided to enact sanctions against race mixing, and these sanctions kept getting worse with time because several upper class males continued to clandestinely have sex with and impregnate their slave/subordinate women, leading to more mixed-race offspring.  Indeed, some men in all human populations have wanted (and still want) to get some sex on the side, and if they couldn�t get it with same-status or higher-status women, then lower-status women would suffice; after all, something is better than nothing.  In other words, via slow but steady absorption of non-whites among themselves, primarily from the non-white female line, the Aryans, over several generations, bred themselves out of phenotypic existence (their genes still persist among many Indians, but the correlation structure of the genes that defined Aryans is gone).  Therefore, whereas most people would not miscegenate in any given generation, reflecting the norm, some would, and this is all it takes to destroy a white population--living in the midst of a large non-white population--over several generations.

The hypothetical scenario above can be made more convincing via the citation of genetic evidence, which JW has already addressed.  For instance, some of the studies that have compared caste variation in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome DNA (yDNA) have shown little relationship between the yDNA of different Hindoo castes, but there is clear evidence for mtDNA flow from the lowest castes/equivalent to the higher castes.  Interestingly, a long-standing cultural practice in India is in excellent agreement with the mtDNA evidence; I am talking about the practice of dowry, whereby the parents of a potential bride offer money and goods to a potential bridegroom to marry their daughter.  For a large sum of money/plenty of valuable material goods, some males may be willing to marry a woman somewhat lower in the social hierarchy; extend this process over several generations and once again you have aboriginal genetics continue to creep up into the higher castes.

Posted by Amman on June 01, 2005, 04:09 PM | #

You have correctly pointed out that there was a pre-Aryan civilization in Northwestern India, and it flourished between 2,500 B.C. ? 1,500 B.C.  I vaguely remember coming across information that several of the skulls found in the region and dating to this period are Caucasoid, and I also recall coming across information that a number of elements in this civilization matched the elements in early civilizations appearing in the Middle East.  It appears that this civilization was either in decline or was largely gone around the time the Aryans came to Northwestern India, i.e., the Aryans likely did not have much trouble subjugating the natives.  I referred to the Aryans confronting the aboriginals/natives in my previous post because I am not sure to what extent the pre-Aryan Caucasoids had absorbed the aboriginal types in their gene pool, possibly leading to the decline of their civilization

Are you sure? None of the reading I’ve done on the subject mentioned anything about Caucasoid skulls, I always assumed the inhabitants of Harappa and other cities were part of the indigineous population. Any information that would shed new light on the subject would be appreciated.

Also, about the decline of the civilization, I cannot speak for it in terms of racial composition, but I do recall one hypothesis was disease.

As far as the Aryans breeding themselves out of existence goes, this in indeed a fascinating topic, which I will address at length sometime later.  As to how the Aryans bred themselves out of existence, the following rough and imaginary scenario likely applied.  Some of the white males had sex with the slave/subordinate women; virtually all of the white males also had sex with their white wives, too.  Such practice gave rise to mixed-race individuals that were closer to whites phenotypically.  After several generations, there were a number of non-white people who were close to looking white and some of the low-status white males could take as wives some of the non-white women who happened to be close to looking white.  The offspring of white males and close-to-looking-white non-white females were whiter-looking than their mothers and had an easier time marrying a white person of a higher status compared to their mothers, and some such cases did occur.  Therefore, over several generations, the genes of the original non-white race kept creeping into the white population, largely from the non-white female line, just as genes from the white population kept creeping into the non-whites, largely from the white male line.  However, the size of the non-white population was much larger.  The physical change in the original white population between any two successive generations was small and virtually unnoticeable, but these changes added up, and with the passage of time, the descendents of the original Aryans did not have any idea that they were no longer as white looking as they were, say, six generations ago.  Given an increasing number of mixed-race individuals, some of the white elite decided to enact sanctions against race mixing, and these sanctions kept getting worse with time because several upper class males continued to clandestinely have sex with and impregnate their slave/subordinate women, leading to more mixed-race offspring.  Indeed, some men in all human populations have wanted (and still want) to get some sex on the side, and if they couldn?t get it with same-status or higher-status women, then lower-status women would suffice; after all, something is better than nothing.  In other words, via slow but steady absorption of non-whites among themselves, primarily from the non-white female line, the Aryans, over several generations, bred themselves out of phenotypic existence (their genes still persist among many Indians, but the correlation structure of the genes that defined Aryans is gone).  Therefore, whereas most people would not miscegenate in any given generation, reflecting the norm, some would, and this is all it takes to destroy a white population--living in the midst of a large non-white population--over several generations.

Oh, this explanation is probably correct. As I recall, the same thing happened with the Spanish conquistadors--they were slowly being “aboriginalized,” so to speak, and didn’t really take note of it until a few generations had passed. Of course, unlike the Aryans, Spain at that time remained quite white.

Posted by Amman on June 01, 2005, 04:10 PM | #

Your statement about miscegenation interests me, because it brings up a question I was wondering about after JWHolliday brought up Baker’s “Race.” According to him, “domestication” resulted in human willingness to partake of many “unnatural” behaviors, miscegenation being one of them. However, there are many other sexual deviancies that “dmoestication” seems not to have touched--incest, for instance. I believe E.O Wilson quoted a study which proved that opposite-sex siblings in developed nations had almost no attraction to each other at maturity. If “domestication” was enough to weaken taboos against miscegenation (a potentially far more deleterious practice, as the overall health of mixed populations would seem to show--well, at least certain mixed race populations compared to other nonmixed populations) why did it not weaken taboos against incest and other such sexual practices?

Posted by dan dare on June 01, 2005, 06:47 PM | #

@Amman:

JW Holliday appears to have missed your request, so I’ll take to liberty of responding to your question about J.R. Baker’s “Race”.

Originally published by the OUP in 1974, it was reprinted by the Foundation for Human Understanding, Athens GA in 1981 as ISBN 0 936396 01 6.

You can probably find a used copy on alibris or abebooks.

Posted by friedrich braun on June 01, 2005, 07:03 PM | #

Another point to keep in mind concerns the process of “sexual imprinting” by which animals identify what traits suitable mates should possess. Females are usually more deeply influenced by sexual imprinting. Animals tend to imprint upon the traits of their parents and siblings, since they have the most social contact with them.

It has been demonstrated that finches raised by foster parents of a different species of finch will later exhibit a lifelong sexual attraction toward the alien species.  One wonders how a child’s sexual imprinting mechanism is affected by forcible racial integration and near continual exposure to media stimuli promoting interracial contact.

There’s little doubt that the ancient Aryans also faced this process in their very mixed surroundings.

Posted by friedrich braun on June 01, 2005, 07:19 PM | #

Here’s a pretty good review (scroll down):

The Reality of Race

An eminent biologist’s classic
analysis of the forbidden subject.

reviewed by Thomas

http://www.amren.com/9311issue/9311issue.html

Posted by J Richards on June 03, 2005, 08:23 AM | #

Amman,

I came across some information on the Caucasoid skulls found in the Indus valley civilization a long time ago, and do not recall the source.  I will try to find out more about this and post the information, but this will be in another thread.  As a first approximation, the notion of people with Caucasoid skulls in the Indus valley civilization is not very surprising given the civilizational similarities with other ancient Middle-Eastern civilizations and also the fact that there were no comparable civilizations anywhere in the southern part of India at the time; southern India would have most extensively harbored the aboriginal natives indigenous to India during the time the Indus valley civilization flourished. 

JW had better comment on the notion of domestication increasing inclination toward engaging in unnatural behaviors, but speaking of incest, whereas it is clear that most people find it repulsive, let alone engage in it, a minority engages in it.  Similarly, the hypothetical scenario of the disappearance of the Aryans that I have sketched above invokes miscegenation on the part of a small number of Aryans in any given generation, which adds up in terms of racial consequences given the much greater number of non-whites.  Behaviors considered normal need not characterize every single individual; after all, not everyone is normal, but specific normal behaviors will characterize the majority.