Ethnocentrism and Christian universalism: opposites and parallels
Over the last few days I have conducted an e-mail exchange with “Rocket”, whom readers will know for his firm universalist Christian stand. Rocket asked to post here on the juxtaposing of ethnocentric and universalist Christian aims and values. What we’ve ended up with is this, which parentage is very much more Rocket’s than mine. So it is his handle which appears beneath the post.
GW
In the sociological substratum of ethnocentrism versus authentic Christian universalism there are a number of interesting ways to compare and contrast these two value systems. One significant qualitative difference lies in the dual concepts of honor and shame, which are the tribal equivalents of redemption and retribution in Christianity.
Historically, tribes with an iron clad bloodline-identification placed a high premium on honor and shame. Roman historian Tacitus wrote about Germania and its conflict with Pax Romana, and how the German tribes refused to be subdued. Hence they remained free men in the sense of retaining control over their tribe’s fate.
Meantime, through the vicarious sacrifice of Christ, the Christian is embraced by divine forgiveness. Hence he lives as a free men, even though his life-circumstances may dictate otherwise.
There can be no honor for the followers of Jesus of Nazareth because His followers do not seek honor from men, including each other. They do seek redemption, though, and an act of altruism towards the poor and sick is redeeming. Hard-heartedness or greed, on the other hand, will meet with retribution. The parallel in the old Germanic world was that hard-hearted fighting was in-group altruism, and there was honor if you fought as an Ostrogoth and great shame if you did not.
Now, the Church - and certainly the pristine early Church - carried the mindset that in Christ there is no honor, there is no shame. The Christian message in its pure form is not one of Deism, theism, or Spinoza’s monism, but rather one where the GOD of the universe intrudes on His/Her creation by becoming a man and living and dying in it, showing divine immanence and paradoxically divine transcendence at the same time. It is a divine invasion, and the believer will probably conclude that the protective wrath of the tribal man is directed at it. He will certainly hold to the belief in and acceptance of all ethnic groups as one. Community, not segregation, is therefore the guiding principle for his relations with humanity at large.
This very clearly generates a conflict over the freedom issue. One man finds freedom with fidelity to the hereditary, the other with fidelity to faith. If carried to their natural conclusions, they cannot occupy the same space. The tribalist sees the universalist Christian as estranged from his own nature. The universalist Christian sees the tribalist as a man in revolt at the divine itself. The Christian asks the tribalist to die to the world, which includes his ethnic attachments. The tribalist asks the Christian to give his people life.
It does appear to be a pretty final divorce. But even so, it is worth asking whether they have something somewhere in common. Can one use, say, an Hegelian dialectic to come to the absolute idea and bridge the gap between these different goals, different methodologies and different freedoms? Kierkegaard and Nietzche both say no. Both of these rebels of the 19th century were opposed to synthetic thinking. However, their reasons were different. Nietzche believed in the power of the will, and tribal fidelity, and Kierkegaard believed in the surrender of the will to Christ, and no fidelity to church, tribe, or state. But I believe there are a few common factors on which something – perhaps not a full synthesis – can be built.
1. Both the Ostrogoths and the early Church bravely resisted being conquered by Ceaserdom at the cost of their own lives. The warrior and the martyr must each be given their due. Courage is common to both.
2. There was a strong bond of brotherhood in both groups, or why would they not surrender to the Empire like many other groups did?
3. The values (honor and redemption) by which both sustained their pursuit of freedom were equally absolute in their respective domains.
Courage, brotherhood and committment are qualities each could have recognised in the other. In our very different age they are qualities more quietly held, but they are present nonetheless. That cannot be said of many in the West. It might form a basis for a useful conversation, at least. So please, converse.
Rocket
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Rocket Scientist,
these spheres never cross . never. one is finite and the other is infinite. one is an approximate almost based on morals , and the other is a leap of faith placing the individual in absolute relationship with the Absolute. Socrates gave up his life for a universal .
Traditionally, the infinite was considered by mathematicians to be an undefined value. Leaving infinity undefined left God’s nature undefined in relation to Man. That left room for God’s existence and Christians could be entirely rational up to the point where faith in God was necessary to justify Creation. All a Christian needed to say was, “We don’t know enough to define God, much less tell you where to look for Him.”
God died the day the infinite was turned into a completely unknowable, mystical, magical value. Although justified in terms of consistency and “science” this was a political maneuver orchestrated by the usual suspects – Einstein and tribe – to promote racial equality (Weze all ekwal in de eyez of da Lawd!) and undermine the hated, traditional Christianity. The consequence of this act – largely unknown by Christians today – was to define God. God defined is dead.
Why? He and all Creation are an infinite collection of ghostly points – a hologram, if you will. We’ve been raised to His plane of existence. Or you could say He was lowered to our level. It really makes no difference. Now, as I’ve previously pointed out, all one needs do to replace God is ascribe certain elite or collectively-derived “kumbayah” characteristics to a singularity (or a group of “special” men) and give it (or them) a new name.
Universalism killed God. The problem is, you haven’t realized it. The usual suspects are laughing their asses off about it, too! How do I know? I once provided technical support to one of the nation’s leading scientific institutions.
WLindsayWheeler,
For those Atheists out there that think that a belief in God is irrational, Vox Day has come out with a book The Irrational Atheist and points to the irrationality of atheists themselves.
I’m not “against” you, but please realize that all you’re doing is engaging in apologetics. The Rocket Scientist subscribes to mystical universalism because it is convenient for him to do so. You are not returning him to the Old Time Religion. He was never there in the first place. What he and others like him don’t realize is that the logic of universalism has undermined their very belief system.
Today the reality is, why worship God when one can be God? He and “modern” Xtians are sliding down a slippery slope. You can do your thing until you’re blue in the face, but you will not change anything. All you can do is hold onto your position and possibly influence family members. In the faith community, unfortunately, you are completely out-horsepowered.
In this age of the Dead God the only aggressive challenge to the universalism of witch doctors of any stripe is atheistic neo-Darwinism and sociobiology.
Posted by GT on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 at 07:34 AM | #
Note the “Godly” look in the face of a Judeo-Xtian. Note the “Superior” look in the face of a politically judaized atheist (liberal secularist). Same look. What is it called? The Look of Secret Knowledge. How is The Look of Secret Knowledge justified? By the universalism of ghostly, infinite points. How do those looks differ? They don’t. Same crap, different name.
Scary, huh?
Not at all.
Posted by GT on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 at 08:11 AM | #
Rocket, Let me help you understand something and put things in context. There are two sets of laws in the world, the Res Divina and the Res Publica. Both are needed. The Res Divina, the Divine Law works in CONJUNCTION with the Res publica. The Divine Law does not countermand the Res Publica. They work together. Each has its own sphere, its own object.
The Gospel belongs to the Res Divina and Ethnocentrism belongs to the Res Publica. They have different objects, goals but work together for the good of the whole.
Rocket, let me put Ethnocentrism in context. The Struggle and campaign now for Ethnocentrism by this site and other people is because of Jewish Masonic Bolshevism. Jewish Masonic Bolshevism is known by another name---That of Communism. Nations and races have existed since before the Tower of Babel. Karl Marx, a Christianized Jew, wrote The Communist Manifesto. He ended it by saying, “All the workers of the world unite”. One of the platforms of Jewish Masonic Bolshevism is the destruction of race and nation and bring about a One World Government. This is the Jewish plan. This plan has also been adopted by liberal Euros as well. This is called Globalization. It is about Deconstructing the Natural Order and once the Old Order is decontructed, building in its place the New World Order. The New World Order is about reconstructing the Tower of Babel.
This is Evil.
Your “Christian Universalism” is feeding this agenda. The Gospel and Christianity in NO way deconstructs the Natural Order. This is not what Righteousness is. The people of this website and others like it are all about fighting this Jewish Masonic Bolshevist plan of DE-Racination. We are only upholding the Natural Order and the place of ethnocentrism in it.
God is the God of Righteousness, isn’t he Rocket? Do you even know what Righteousness means?
Righteousness means “...to PRESERVE ancestral customs and institutions and the established laws...duties to the gods, ...then those to country and parents then those to the departed.” (Aristotle, Virtues and Vices, v 2.) What is one of the very first commands God gave to Adam? He said, “To Cultivate and to KEEP”. Keep means to preserve! This ethnocentrism that we are talking about is about PRESERVING, KEEPING race and nation. That is what it means to be ethnocentric. It is about combatting Jewish Masonic Bolshevism in their destruction of race and nation. The Jews want to destroy Christianity and to do that---they must destroy Europe. Our Duty is to PRESERVE our Country. Our loyalty is to Europe and its people.
Your Universalism is nothing but Jewish Masonic Bolshevism. For more of an understanding please see this Haloscan thread. It is the comment section of Vox Day’s post on the outing of Dumbledore as gay. The author of the Harry Potter series, JK Rowling is a fellow traveller in Communism. To understand what we are facing and what communism is, you, Rocket, need to read this thread. It starts out by discussing Rowling--it is then expanded to what is communism. When you go to this thread, Press Ctrl+F, type in ‘wheeler’ and find all my posts:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/voxday/2489781122503403750/
We wouldn’t be talking about Ethnocentrism Rocket, if it wasn’t for the Jews and their Commie Euro pals that want to destroy it.
Posted by WLindsayWheeler on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 at 10:37 AM | #
“The Jews want to destroy Christianity and to do that---they must destroy Europe. Our Duty is to PRESERVE our Country. Our loyalty is to Europe and its people.”
WLindsayWheeler,
I’ve felt that way since I came to realize Christianity was the only true Religion (or worldview) for the ‘second’ time in my life. The first time was when I was a young child. But when I hit my teen years, my beliefs became that of an atheist. I dismissed the Holy Bible as a bunch of fairy tales made up by really smart people for the purposes of controlling the masses. I bought into the notion “God was dead,” or God never really existed in the first place. I began to believe that Darwin’s theory of evolution rang supreme.
At around the age of 19, I started to question validity of macro-evolution and the “Big Bang” theory. After mulling it over, I had to conclude that an Intelligent Designer had to have been, and is, orchestrating the creation of all things seen and unseen. Furthermore, the Christian Bible provides the best explanation, by far, of how we got here, why we are here, and where we are going.
That said, I could not AGREE with you more, WLindsayWheeler. In order to destroy Christianity, the followers of Satan must destroy Europe. And make no mistake about it, rocket, without the European tribes promoting and defending Christianity, the other tribes of the world would not have been exposed to the true Gospel of Jesus the Christ. Universalism? All Christians are one in the same in the spiritual sense. I refuse to believe we are required to participate—or passively go along with—the destruction of our own genotype. God does not require that; in fact, He requires the opposite. The Fifth Commandment is my guide:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm
Bottom line: If the White-race is genocided from the earth, so goes Christianity—and vice-versa. Right now, in the Eurosphere, Traditional Christianity is being replaced by secular humanism, Islam and pseudo-Christianity; Euros are not having enough kids to maintain their populations and are being replaced by non-Euros. Unintended consequences abound! As a result, Hell is about to break loose all over the planet.
The end of the age is near. The “Battle of Armageddon” is knocking at the door.
Have a nice day.
Posted by onlooker on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 at 01:41 PM | #
Mr. Wheeler,
I like your explanations very much. What is your view of paganism as expressed by the Nordic religion reconstructionists?
Posted by Rusty Mason on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 at 07:29 PM | #
Lindsey --for the 10th time i am not a social engineer , or a liberal . and may i add that i am not preaching universalism . i am preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. the secular universalists have tried to imitate it by their own flesh . not good .
but the truth stands , and survival is not an option . pick up your cross and follow me means death ! ‘’the Church was built on the foundation of the blood of the martyrs’’ Tertullian said . it was not built on saving thier butts by huddling in little tribal groups to protect each other. THE BLOOD OF THE MARTYRS !
‘’’he who seeks to save his life will lose it . but he who gives up his life for my sake will save it ‘’. Jesus said .
COUNT THE COST MY FREIND . only the true ressurection life can come out of dying with Christ , and that is more than just death itself .... it is dying daily to the flesh , the world , the tribe , the nation , the status , the honor .
Posted by rocket on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 at 10:08 PM | #
‘’The Church is built on the foundation of the blood of the martyrs ‘’Tertullian
Posted by rocket on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 at 10:10 PM | #
Lindsey --true rightiuosness does not come by way of ethnic centrism . it comes by the blood of Christ. if you seek to stand in GODS prescence by any other means , you will be like the man at the wedding feast in matt 22 that came to the wedding without the proper garments. the proper garmants are the blood of christ.
you cant have it both ways pal .
GT—the abstractification of GOD comes from secular universalism . christian universalim as taught by Bonhoffer and kierkegaard shatters the abstract GOD is dead , or is some new age ghost , by the scandel of the specificity of the message of the cross of Christ. that specificity is what i embrace. that specificity is THE OFFENCE. it confronts the existent individual to repent .
Posted by rocket on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 at 10:21 PM | #
GT—i agree with you about the euroman caving in to liberal abstract doctrines of GOD . i have been fighting that for years. the way to fight it is by the proclamation of the true gospel , not by race qoutas , or genetic prattle ./
Posted by rocket on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 at 10:25 PM | #
Rocket Science,
Philosophizing is incidental to my primary task, which is to address the practical matters concerning the preservation of my people. Conflict and reason led me to these positions. I am not “trained” in philosophy and am long past accepting the authority of witch doctors. I haven’t read Bonhoffer or Kierkgaard, although I am vaguely familiar with the latter’s name.
I am a realist (small r) with an experimental bent. Secular witch doctors - jews and sycophants - hate, mock, censor, and criminalize realists more than they do Xtian witch doctors, for not only have we greater potential to undermine secularism’s gentile base, but also pose a greater threat to their physical existence.
This is your topic, so I am through unless I become aware of a secular witch doctor. I tend to let Xtian religionists fight it out among themselves.
Posted by GT on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 at 05:46 PM | #
“I am a realist (small r) with an experimental bent. Secular witch doctors - jews and sycophants - hate, mock, censor, and criminalize realists more than they do Xtian witch doctors, for not only have we greater potential to undermine secularism’s gentile base, but also pose a greater threat to their physical existence.”
GT, how ironic! You sound like you’ve been influenced by Ayn Rand? Have you read (or listened) to the John Galt speech I linked to? It’s well worth taking the time to read, and or listen to!
C:\Documents and Settings\HP_Owner\My Documents\John Galt Speech.htm
Here’s another classic speech propounding the philosophy of objectivism. This one isn’t as long as John Galt’s.
C:\Documents and Settings\HP_Owner\My Documents\American Rhetoric Movie Speech from The Fountain Head - Howard Roark Addresses His Jury.htm
Posted by onlooker on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 at 06:32 PM | #
oops! Let’s try that again.
http://www.danielstamate.com/johngalt.html
and,
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechthefountainhead.html
Posted by onlooker on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 at 06:42 PM | #
GT , there is no need to bow out now . Ayn Rand as onlooker suggests ? we Christians are always battling it out , but it is good to get the scientific view . you say that jews and witch doctors have undermined the the secular gentile base. alot of truth to that.
but maybe it is secularism in general that has undermined the secular base . the ism is what i am refering to . for the titans did not ruin heaven but laid waste the world . maybe that is what seculari’’ism’’ did to a healthy secularity .
which all begs the question : what is at the root of the decline of western civilization ? despite Gibbon , Spengler , and even Buchanan;s reasons why , we must plumb deeper. why is it falling apart? what is really undermining it ? does man alone have the power to save it ? if so ,then how ?
Posted by rocket on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 at 08:50 PM | #
“we Christians are always battling it out , but it is good to get the scientific view .”
And wouldn’t life be a real drag if we were all the same?
“what is at the root of the decline of western civilization ? despite Gibbon , Spengler , and even Buchanan;s reasons why , we must plumb deeper. why is it falling apart? what is really undermining it ? does man alone have the power to save it ? if so ,then how ?”
It’s all academic now, rocket. The inertia of the anti-Christ movement has grown so strong that it’s literally unstoppable. Only Christ’s return can stop it.
Anybody who is familiar with the “Book of Revelations” and pays attention to what’s going on in the world can understand current events are shaping up for the Great Tribulation. IMHO, fighting over control of the oil fields in the Middle-east will be the catalyst that will set off worldwide conflagration.
Posted by onlooker on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 01:16 PM | #
Jesus said, “the one who is my brother, sister and mother, are those that do the Will of God”.
Now, Rocket reads in this the Inversion theology, that Christ here is doing away with the family.
Not True. Jesus is making an allegorical statement. How an allegorical statement becomes the basis of a materialist approach to eliminate the family is beyond me. What Rocket seems to be doing is putting the cart before the horse. Brother, sister, mother come before the phrase “Will of God”. The Will of God can not possibly be the elimination of the family if they are mentioned before hand. What makes one a brother of Jesus Christ is not a blood relationship but doing the Will of the Father.
In no way does God do away with the family. None of the Ten Commandments are done away with. “Honor thy Father and they Mother”. We are told to honor our parents---That is the Will of God. The Ten Commandments are an expression of the Will of God. When one honors his mother and father---Then, he becomes a brother, sister, mother to Jesus Christ. If you notice throughout the life of Jesus Christ---he is always careful to obey the Scriptures in fulfilling them. Jesus Christ is constantly saying, “It is written”. The Old Testament is the Will of the Father.---Jesus is constantly obeying them. One of Jesus Christ’s last words is “Not my will, but your (Father’s) Will be done”. Jesus was very careful himself in obeying the Will of his Father.
The Tower of Babel is one of the few instances where God is very very Direct. Races and Nations existed in Genesis chapter 10. The Tower of Babel is in Chapter 11. Races existed before the Tower of Babel. This story teaches the Will of God. God came down destroyed the Tower of Babel, God CHANGED the language of man and diversified it thus strengthening race and added belonging and Volkenhass to keep them seperated.
God Divided Man into races. This is said 3 times in the Old Testament and St. Paul says this again in his speech in Athens. God Divided the Nations. When the Bible repeats itself---The Bible is making an emphasis. God Divided the Nations, that is emphasized over and over again. God Created Nations/Races/Tribes/Ethnicities. He wants Mankind that way. This is the Will of God.
Those who uphold this Will of God, Those who defend Race and tribe from extinction, those who uphold the sanctity of Race are the brothers, sisters, and mothers of Jesus Christ---for they are upholding the Will of God. The Natural Order Rocket IS the Will of God for the Natural Order was Created by God.
It is the Ungodly that want to unmake the Natural Order. You have it backwards.
Posted by WLindsayWheeler on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 01:24 PM | #
WLW: Jesus said, “the one who is my brother, sister and mother, are those that do the Will of God”
I read that as a piece of Jewish self-reference. Only a non-Jew would read another meaning into it, allegorical or otherwise.
Posted by Guessedworker on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 01:33 PM | #
Brother Wheeler said, “God Divided Man into races. This is said 3 times in the Old Testament and St. Paul says this again in his speech in Athens.”
Can you point me to these verses, please?
Posted by Rusty Mason on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 05:54 PM | #
“WLW: Jesus said, “the one who is my brother, sister and mother, are those that do the Will of God”
GW: “I read that as a piece of Jewish self-reference.”
Interesting. I wonder how it reads in Greek. Perhaps the Koine can tell us what the real interpretation should be. Chapter and verse?
Posted by Rusty Mason on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 06:12 PM | #
Hi Rusty. To your previous question: “What is your view of paganism as expressed by the Nordic religion reconstructionists? ”
There are Greeks as well trying to reconstruct Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite and all the old Greek pagan gods. I find it funny that when they interact with Christians they throw atheist arguments at Christians---then turn around and construct and say they “believe” in Zeus. One guy on a Cretan forum is Ordaining priests for this and passing out certificates.
While were at it let’s resurrect the Crocidile God and Ganesh as well---oops--Ganesh is still around. Once a pagan god has died, how does one resurrect it? It is not like the Teutons, the Vikings had a great historical reservoir from which to draw from such as the Greeks. It is kind of non-sensical. Talk about “Christians are irrational”, this smacks of even more irrationality because it is all 90% guess work on reconstructing pagan gods and their rituals. It is better that they go to India and bring back the Hindoo gods--at least it is still a lived tradition in India---But this whole thing is born out of Hatred. It is Hate that drives this. It is all very Irrational.
Moreover, none of their religions from Greek reconstituted diety to the Nordic reconstituted diety are going to be Universal. Are the Greeks pagans going to accept Ganesh and are the Nordic people going to accept the Crocidile god of the Egyptians? I mean this is all getting supersilly. Wouldn’t a pagan have to accept all the other pagan dieties as well? But doesn’t Homer say, “Rule of One is Best”? How can there be a multiplicity amongst the pagans? Does not Vishnu or Krishna rule? How about Isis? Or Typhun?
Furthermore, much of the pagan gods---where born. But if God is Perfect---he would be Eternal and no pagan god is eternal. Even the pagans themselves began to question their own religions. Socrates attacks them wholesale---for what philosophy teahes---no pagan god could measure up. Only the God from the Hebrews matched what Greek philosophy was saying. God is Eternal. God is Moral. God is the perfection of all concepts. There is No evil in God. All the pagan gods did immoral things---not the God of Abraham.
So in this regard, Christianity is formed by the fuller message of Jesus Christ and by Greek Philosophy. Greek philosopy formed Christianity. Greek Philosophy couldn’t form to their own religion. This is why many Greek philosophers, like St. Justin the Martyr and St. Augustine, became Christians. Christianity and Philosophy go together. Only the God that spoke thru the Hebrews is the one true god.
Posted by WLindsayWheeler on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 07:07 PM | #
The Three Old Testament references.
First, LXX, Genesis, chapter 11, “(6) And the Lord said, Behold there is one race, and one lip of all, and they have begun to do this, and now nothing shall fail from them of all that they may have undertaken to do. (7) Come and having gone down let us there confound their tongue, that they may not understand each the voice of his neighbor.” (8) And the Lord SCATTERED them thence over the face of the earth...”
When God changed the language---he changed the souls. Each race has a peculiar soul. At this time, it is my opinion that God implanted into man Belonging and Volkenhass to keep them seperate. The Differences of Man are solely genetic---but reside in the Soul. The Soul carries the spirit of the Patriarch of that people. That is why a Race has a peculiar culture all to itself. French Culture is different from German Culture which is different from English culture. The difference is the Soul.
Second reference. LXX, Deuteronomy 32.8 “When the Most High divided the nations, when he SEPERATED the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God”.
God Seperated.
Third reference. LXX, Book of Sirach, (Ecclesiasticus, NOT Ecclesiastes), 36.10. “And all men are from the ground, and Adam was creatd of earth. In much knowledge HATH DIVIDED them, and made their ways diverse.
God divided and he made Racial differences.
Fourth reference. New Testament, Acts 17.26. St. Paul speaking. ”And he made from one Every nation of mn to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation,...
God made all the nations of the world. The Greek is “enos pan ethnos”. The word “ethnos” is ethnicity or race or nation.
----------------------------------------------------------
God divided, God seperated, God made races/nations/tribes/ethnicities.
This is said FOUR times. When something is repeated over and over again, it is to emphasize the importance. This is not some obscure teaching said once. This is said Four times. The Will of God is shown and taught. God made Races---the Will of God is that they are Maintained and preserved. This is the Will of God. All those that uphold that are the brothers, sisters and mothers of Jesus Christ because these people have a respect to what God has done.
It is the ungodly, the communist and the Jew that seeks to undermine what God has wrought. It is Nihilism to attack and undermine the Natural Order. It is nihilist to say that there is no such thing as racial differences. All things have meaning. And every race has meaning, significance and consequences. That is reality. To deny reality is Nihilist.
Posted by WLindsayWheeler on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 07:36 PM | #
Rocket, the Roman Catholic way of reading scripture has four meanings, the literal, the allegorical, the anagogical, and the tropological senses. It is called the Neo-Patristic Approach to Scripture. I refer you to this link: http://www.rtforum.org/study/index.html
Posted by WLindsayWheeler on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 07:50 PM | #
“Rocket, the Roman Catholic way of reading scripture has four meanings”
No, it only has one meaning… you are either going to heaven or hell. No nuance is involved.
Posted by onlooker on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 08:13 PM | #
WLindsayWheeler, said;
“God made races---the Will of God is that they are maintained and preserved>“
“It is better that they,(pagans), go to India and bring back the Hindoo gods-at least it is still a lived tradition in India---But this whole thing is born out of Hatred.”
First, if Christianity was practiced as you have stated and protected the diversity of people, then there would be less emnity toward Christianity.
Secondly, this is not about hatred. This is basically a desire, to return to what was removed through coersion and violence.
Thirdly, contrary to the constant “drum beat” of political correctness, much has been preserved of Nordic pre-Christian cosmology. Anglo Saxon Common Law, is just one example.
Personally, I admire the Greek Orthodox Church, in that it has been a protector of the Greek people. It may be that being as the Greeks were the first to experience Christianity in it’s purest form, their experience was much different from,say the Saxons or Scandinavian.
My point is, be it Heathen or Christian, if neither help to preserve European Man then both worldviews will be for nothing.
Posted by torgrim on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 08:42 PM | #
Lindsay—i did not say GOD was out to destroy the family by using that verse , but rather extending the family . this extention goes beyond blood ties encompassing those who do the will of GOD .
i do agree with you about greek philosophy and christianity ./ the early church fathers had to have a philsophical language to explain the coming and nature of the messiah . this is messiainc hellenized judaism . complex indeed as the councils have shown in their Christological proouncements.
Rusty --Acts 17 --Paul confronts the stoic and epicurian philsophers at mars hill in Athens . he begins with an insult calling them religiuos in ALL things...having seen the idol all around him . then he gets into his message. it is about nations and their boundaries --NOT RACE ! it is about nations seeking GOD . at that time it would have been the Polis --( greek city state concept as laid out by Aristotle ) .
Posted by rocket on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 09:43 PM | #
rocket,
“Extending the family” is destroying the family. By destroying distance, you destroy what is close. By extending love to all, you destroy natural love.
Universalism is always destructive of connectivity, and without connectivity love is a lie ... not especially because Man is imperfect but because Nature is the only way it can be. The Christian who strives to love as “Jesus loves” is as ignorant of love’s binding, which is its natural purpose, as any liberal lunatic who thinks anti-racism will free the white man from his morally stained self. Universalism is an error.
Now I will go further. Spiritual striving has nothing to do with faith practises, and little to do with sacred books. The living testament of the presence of Man is not to be found in either, and those that practise faith by the book are blind to it anyway. I am is far away from the rigour of the cold pew and the hearty brotherhood of believers. A man like you, who I take to be a seeker after beauty, shall find only beauty. But that is insufficient solace for a life sentence of absence.
All this means that, the narrative itself aside, Christianity is a depleted testament confabulated from a few sacred fragments. It has no living core ... no Sufism to Islam, for example. Its Paulian journey to the Universal Goy was conducted without such a core. Such is the suggestibility and materialism of our forefathers’ minds, they did not notice. And their sons still do not notice.
Posted by Guessedworker on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 10:16 PM | #
Hey Guessedworker, I’ll see you in heaven!
Posted by onlooker on Thursday, March 13, 2008 at 11:00 PM | #
Professor wins prize for maths link to God
“Science is but a collective effort of the human mind to read the mind of God from question marks out of which we and the world around us seem to be made.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3540989.ece
Posted by onlooker on Friday, March 14, 2008 at 04:12 PM | #
Lindsey --rejecting Apostolic foundations is a dangeriuos game . Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles.
extending the family does not destroy it but save it via godly community living . notice i said ‘’godly ‘’...not secular.
you seem to treat the gospel as if it is a disembodied thing like the gnostics --saying that it is about the soul , and other things like race and family etc are about being human . yet , nothing could be further from the truth . the paradox of the GOD-MAN lives in the Church , for as Polycarp said ‘’we are the continued incarnation of the Son of Man ‘’.
it took GOD to be human to define what it means to be human . when you read the new testament , and church fathers in that light it gives us the big picture . one that is not fragmented .
Posted by rocket on Friday, March 14, 2008 at 09:36 PM | #
extending the family does not destroy it but save it via godly community living
The family is “saved” by simple social conservatism, which is nothing more than the public recognition of evolutionarily adaptive behaviour. Universalism is maladaptive because it does not preference genetic interests. A universalist community seems to be a contradiction in terms to me. But assuming that it means some sort of Christian panmixia it would be contrary to kinship and, therefore, maladaptive, and must send the family straight down the S-bend.
“You seem to treat the gospel as if it is a disembodied thing ...”
The synoptics and John are only good for faith noises. The internal meaning is disassociated and discontinuous, though in the original Greek that may be marginally less so.
Faith, I’m afraid, belongs to the earth and to evolution, though it certainly presumes of itself a genesis among the host. Faith exists because it offers fitness gains. But ... what man is, and what he might be, are two different things. As he is, he talks too much, and everything is false. What he might be is a sometimes present and maturing being with a vocabulary of two words and three letters.
I don’t have an answer to the greatest question. I do, though, know that faith is not it.
Posted by Guessedworker on Friday, March 14, 2008 at 10:36 PM | #
You know Rocket, I speak in plain English, yet you put words in my mouth that that I didn’t say. You wrote that I said this: rejecting Apostolic foundations is a dangeriuos game .
NOwhere did I say that. You seem to be having trouble understanding English, common terms of Christendom, you don’t understand the Natural Law or its place in Christian Thought. Nowhere do I recommend, advocate rejecting the Apostolic foundations.
Did the Apostles, Rocket, have to deal with the de-racination agenda of Communists? What does the Gospel have to do with the Communist agenda we are fighting here? What does your Gospel have anything to say about the de-racination agenda of the Jewish Bolshevists? Anything Rocket?
You still fail to get the point. How old are you Rocket? Do you know anything of history? Do you know what is going on TODAY?
Posted by WLindsayWheeler on Friday, March 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM | #
Lindsey --i am 53. and yes i willl match my knowledge of history with yours any day . count on it .
the same jewish resistence the Apostels fought is the same today . only the ideologys change. be not decieved by the so called changing times. its the same unbelief. ‘’they are the enemies of the gospel ‘’. thats an Apostle speaking and they dont mince words. they are not nuetral . in my 3 decades of preaching Christ to jews i know first hand . it matters not weather they are capitalists, communists, or whatever. until they repent , they will never be saved. lets get to the root of the problem here--nothing has changed in 2000 years as far as unbelif from the jew. the only thing that has changed is ‘’where are the Pauls of our generation , that can confront them in an oracular way in the full power of GOD ?” you cant reason with them . it must be power. until they are converted ...they remain the force that undermines a society that attempts to be christian . do you agree with that ?
the family saved by social conservativism . ... you say . more social engineering . there is not enough power. and even if you did , would it give glory to GOD or self ? once again this trying to save by any other means than the gospel is idolatry . it is man made efforts like the multiculterists. now , this was looked over by GOD in times of past , but the time has come for all men to repent .
correct if i am wrong --i dont want to put words in your mouth , but in the context of this thread—are seeking to merge Aquinas Natural Law with Darwins Natural selection ? and if so ...how ?
Posted by rocket on Saturday, March 15, 2008 at 08:59 PM | #
Rocket, I read your testimonial.
Did your conversion to Christianity have something to do with a drug problem? Isn’t it true you were searching for an escape from reality that didn’t involve chemicals? Many drug abusers of your time gravitated to Jesus in order to get off drugs, yet at the same time, they effectively insulated themselves from the unpleasantness of the real world. Is that applicable to you?
Posted by onlooker on Saturday, March 15, 2008 at 10:09 PM | #
onlooker . no , i never had a drug problem . in fact thru the 60’s i was the lone anti -drug person . for a rock n roller that was rare.
i was a seeker after truth ...but running from it at the same time as you can tell . The Lord cornered me and revealed His Son to me .
i really hated Christ before that and went out of my way to atttempt to destroy christians faith . so , i really know what it is like to be on boths sides of the faith . this is why i am such a fanatic . the power of GOD saved me . and i will never be silent about it , nor ashamed of it .
Posted by rocket on Monday, March 17, 2008 at 02:13 AM | #
i dont want to put words in your mouth , but in the context of this thread—are seeking to merge Aquinas Natural Law with Darwins Natural selection ? and if so ...how ?
My answers in this thread were never about merging the Natural Law with Darwin’s natural selection. My use of the Natural Law in this thread has always been the classical use and meaning of the term. The Natural Law is in Classical Greek and Roman writings and then used by the Catholic Church. This is the sense I used it.
You bring up a good point though. I never considered Darwin’s Natural selection. The science of breeding of domestic animals such as sheep, cows and horses and the benefits of breeding was well known to all the ancients and was taken into consideration such as the Spartan laws on eugenics.
I don’t believe in evolution. Philosophy disproves evolution and proves creationism. I believe that God created the forms and that natural selection differentiated the forms into species.
Posted by WLindsayWheeler on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 at 10:12 PM | #
i have always seen it that way too . Natural Law in the shcolastic definition has a certain affinity to natural selection . if anything , natural selection in its specificity can give credence to Natural Law as laid out in the Summa .
Posted by rocket on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 at 11:26 PM | #
Doric Philosopher, your MSN email does not work.
Posted by Rusty Mason on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 at 01:19 AM | #
You can email me thru Wikinfo which on the left side bar says “Email this user” or on the front page of my website, I posted my email address.
Posted by WLindsayWheeler on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 at 05:56 AM | #
“onlooker . no , i never had a drug problem . in fact thru the 60’s i was the lone anti -drug person . for a rock n roller that was rare.”
That was rare, indeed.
Happy Easter to you, rocket, and to all.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-6jkCVs5U8c
Posted by onlooker on Saturday, March 22, 2008 at 11:50 PM | #
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Posted by GT on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 at 06:30 AM | #