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Evidence that Godless Capitalist is Lower Caste Godless Capitalist recently banned me from the porn site “Gene Expression” (warning: if you click on that link, software written by south Asian programmer claiming to be “cognitive elitist” has been detecting that you came from Majority Rights and directs you to pornography of black men and white women and it may do so at any time). He did so because he claims I am a white nationalist—a vague class of people banned from the site. But he also—perhaps arguing the alternative—claimed that I am an ignoramus when it counts and not capable of critical thought when it counts—hence not suitable company for cognitive elitists such as those supposedly running and contributing to Gene Expression. Ironically, the justification he gives for claiming this is, itself, a failure of critical thought and/or ignorance when it counts. Moreover, this exhibition was apparently brought on by my claim that recent immigrants from India’s lower caste may be bringing intestinal flora with them that are causing the autism epidemic among Westerners. Now, we are led by Godless Capitalist to believe his ancestry is from India, but could his ancestry be lower caste? Taking personal offense to such an hypothesis and then abusing one’s position of privilege to suppress rational dialogue—providing logically fallacious and/or ignorant justification for these actions—is certainly something more consistent with the hypothesis that he is of lower caste ancestry than brahmin, benefiting from affirmative action and posing as a cognitive elitist, than it is that he is a genuine member of a cognitive elite. It is tragic for all concerned when such characters succeed. Read on for his “egregious” logical fallacy and/or ignorance. Quoting Godless Capitalist as he bans me:
And he did, indeed, delete the following response to him, which I wrote, disrespecting the supposed property rights claimed by Godless Capitalist (a disrespect for which I will provide justification if asked but that is another topic):
Note he is positing that I am a “white nationalist” and that I engaged in “data mining” to come up with the correlation between autism rates and the conjunction of recent immigrants from India with people of Finnish ancestry. A little background may be in order about “data mining”: It is a term used as both indictment and description in different contexts. As description, it refers to the process whereby statistical inferences may legitimately be drawn from the explosion of data arriving in various forms in information systems of increasing capacity. As indictment, it refers to noticing patterns in data and drawing conclusions from those patterns without testing them. The indictment requires a lack of “prejudice”, “preconception” or, perhaps I should say “previously held hypothesis” aka prediction. Here’s the problem with logic and/or ignorance like Godless Capitalist’s, as explained to Steve Sailer when I sent him this correlation a little over a year ago—which he didn’t touch with a ten foot poll for reasons that may have much to do with his friendship with the GNXP’ers: I’ve been accused of “data-mining” the correlations, since it seems _incredible_ that out of all the 2 variable combinations of biologically relevant variables the correlation I predicted would end up being the at the top. (Indeed, I admit to being surprised at my own “luck” here since one would expect that some other combinations would have higher correlations just by chance.) To some extent a fair accusation since I didn’t specifically publish Finnish ancestry nor Indian immigrants as suspects prior to publishing my results. However, I’m also well known for being a “racist”—even a “nordicist” (an accusation commonly coming at me from within the white nationalist community) who may have an ax to grind on behalf of Finns and against recent immigrants from India due to my profession as a computer programmer and the competition I’ve experienced as such from Indians. So my detractors have a dilemma: Either they have to drop the accusation of “racism/nordicism” or they have to drop their accusation that I “data-mined” the correlations. They can’t have it both ways. Of course, if they try dropping their accusation so they can make the “data-mining” accusation more credible, I can point to a long history, going back to at least 1992, of pushing the racialist envelope on Usenet—specifically looking at possible influences of northern climate on characteristics. If they say Indian immigrants are only one group out of many invading the country, so I data-mined the Indian-immigrant factor, I can point to my 10 year stint in Silicon Valley during which I and my “nativist” colleagues were having our profession destroyed.What I didn’t describe here was my Genetic Omnidominance Hypothesis which is the reason the first correlation I attempted against the Department of Education’s autism stats was Finnish ancestry. It was after I got a reasonably high correlation that I decided to run a rank order of all national ancestries against autism and to even my mild surprise, Finns came out on top (again, I was surprised not because I didn’t expect Finns to come out high, but because I would have expected some others to exceed Finns just by chance). This is what motivated me to further pursue the collection of immigrant data and when I had collected it I ran a rank order of immigrant group correlations with autism in the presence of a colleague whose first born child is a profoundly autistic boy. My colleague, to whom I had mentioned my suspicions about Indian immigrants before, said, “Indians are going to be at the top.” Again, I didn’t really expect this to happen—merely that they would be near the top. But he was right. I then wrote special software to take the product between demographic variables and this time the predicted product, Finns*Indians didn’t come out on top—merely very near the top—which is what I expected. It was only after I did outlier identification (throwing out the top and bottom autism States) and restricted the demographic variables to biologically relevant ones that the predicted product came out on top. This is all standard preliminary epidemiology and is quite sufficient to justify further investment in, perhaps county-level or case-study, research to invalidate the hypothesis. But with “cognitive elitists” like Godless Capitalist increasingly occupying positions of trust and authority in the West, we may never discover the cause of autism nor many other profoundly important facts. Indeed, it appears men like Godless Capitalist may be the new Lewontins and a billion strong. In closing, I should describe just how frighteningly tragic it is that men like this are occupying positions of trust and authority in the west: There are conditions under which genocide is justifiable. Specifically, when men occupying positions of trust and authority over other groups appear to be doing so based on nepotism and are causing so much damage from those positions that they deprive their betters of the resources they need to make fine discriminations between members of the ingroup as well as depriving them of the resources required to take corrective action that is less gross. Comments:2
Posted by James Bowery on Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:16 | # t is a badge of honour to be IP-banned from hypocrisy-laden sites such as GNXP and Samizdata. My compliments. Thank you. However, I suspect they know it is not necessary to IP ban me since I do not post under anonymous pseudonyms and they will always be able to delete my messages by the author name. 3
Posted by James Bowery on Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:28 | # Mangus, since even the leadership of the “slobs around us” are third rate at best, it seems to be a relief when second rate individuals occupy positions of prominence. However, when problems are as serious as those we are experiencing, first rate talent is required, and GNXP is second rate at best. 4
Posted by Nick Tamiroff on Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:54 | # James- I just visited GNXP,and discovered the most fragile ego Í‘ve seen on ANY blog-to wit-gc! He definately needs to start medication[Ritalin/Prozac].Strange how personal theories and concepts can become a mantra for the 80 th percentile.Get a couple of blinds,and zing him once in a while.Congatulations[altho it dosen’t appear to take much to set him off] Cheers! 5
Posted by George Walker Schrub on Thu, 08 Jun 2006 20:03 | # I don’t know, Bowery. It seems gc won the debate fair and square, and only then did he boot you for being a WN. 6
Posted by Nick Tamiroff on Thu, 08 Jun 2006 20:14 | # I agree with the majority view on this site, but not everything revolves around race. Quite true,but acknowledgement of race is necessary for continued existance of ones’own kind.Do the Chinese,Jajanese,or for that matter,the Abos have a desire to “diversify/assimilate"with other sub-species? NOT UNLESS FORCED.! 7
Posted by James Bowery on Thu, 08 Jun 2006 20:24 | # <a >759 hits for “James Bowery” at majorityrights.com</a> <a >0 hits for George Walker Schrub on majorityrights.com</a> So, George Walker Schrub, whowever you are, how do you think he won the debate fair and square? 8
Posted by James Bowery on Thu, 08 Jun 2006 21:08 | # The whole western world ignores race (when it isn’t lying about it), but we’re supposed to be moderate about it? I like to tell people to think of an artificial intelligence and what it would talk about the most if it became marginally sentient. Basically, it would have a maximum parsimony model of the world, and if certain entities required to make the model parsimonious were continually ignored by users, it would bring up those entities in disproportion attempting to better communicate the model. If the users attempted to deny the value of the entity and offer more convoluted models the poor AI would be left “obsessing” over the entity and the users, unable to adopt the parsimonious model would be tempted to go back to reading blogs like GNXP. 9
Posted by GNXP stinks on Thu, 08 Jun 2006 21:23 | # James, for what it is worth, Razib described GC as a “Tamil Brahmin” on the Dienekes blog. Whether that is true or not, I do not know. Have you considered the possbility - which has been broached here before - that the influence of South Asians on autism may be due to a factor other than intestinal parasites? That is, something else about South Asians are causing this? For example, the race recognition software of the amygdala being negatively influenced during childhood development through exposure to South Asian racial types? Note as well, that Razib has been mocking Finns and Finnish behavior all spring at GNXP; you should scroll through the posts of the last several months. The post about Jan Michael Vincent is particularly instructive in this regard. 10
Posted by James Bowery on Thu, 08 Jun 2006 22:18 | # Have you considered the possbility - which has been broached here before - that the influence of South Asians on autism may be due to a factor other than intestinal parasites? That is, something else about South Asians are causing this? For example, the race recognition software of the amygdala being negatively influenced during childhood development through exposure to South Asian racial types? Not as much as I probably should have given the recent research showing amygdala activation responding to visual stimulation with facial phenotypes varying by race. I have, however, considered the possibility that there are mind viruses or memes that might be responsible for subverting the function of the amygdala resulting in parasitic castrating disorders such as autism appears to be. Here’s what I wrote about the general topic in the GOD Hypothesis: EMOTIVE MEMES AS HUMAN PHEROMONES As discussed above, it is plausible that territorial competition between males has resulted in a variety of mechanisms for manipulating the amygdalae of rivals via extended phenotypics. The amygdala is a key structure in the processes of smell. One of the more plausible neurochemical routes for such genetic omnidominant expression would be the emission of olfactory signals. Pheromones are among the more evolutionarily sophisticated mechanisms by which such extended phenotypic manipulation might occur. In humans, smell has been shown to play some role in sexual attractiveness, with some studies indicating a feminine ability to discriminate between MHC genotypes with consequences for sexual attractiveness. It is natural to presume, therefore, that pheromones play a similar role in humans. However, Jacobson’s organ, and the associated structures for the neurochemical pathways involving pheromones are, in humans, atrophied compared to their counterparts in other animals. This leads one to suspect that a new mechanism has arisen with humans that largely displaces the role played by pheromones in other animals. A clue as to what this new mechanism might be can be found in the other, primary, function of the amygdala—and that is in the storage of emotive memory. In human evolution, memes—replicators that rely on human memory as their raw material—are transmitted between humans with sophistication that rivals and indeed, in many areas, easily surpasses the sophistication of pheromones. Furthermore, such enormous reliance on memes for intraspecific communication seems as unique to humans as is the vestigial nature of structures for pheromones. It is plausible, therefore, that with the development of neurochemical pathways for memes—particularly memes associated with intense emotions—humans lost many of the evolutionary pressures that maintain the pheromone-specific neurochemical pathways in other animals. Spatial structure in populations has been shown by Oliphant (Oliphant, M. (1994). Evolving cooperation in the non-iterated prisoner’s dilemma: The importance of spatial organization. In Brooks, R. and Maes, P. (Eds.) Proceedings of the fourth artificial life workshop, pp. 349-352 MIT Press: Cambridge, MA.) to be sufficient to evolve memetic capability in kin-based societies. However, in non-kin environments, such as those predicted by the genetic omnidominance hypothesis to produce intraspecific parasitic castration, one should expect to find Saussurean communication progressively degenerating as evolutionary pressure drives the expression of increasingly sophisticated means of transmitting emotive memes that take up residence as emotive memories in the amygdala of rivals thereby reducing their reproductive competence. 11
Posted by President Barbicane on Thu, 08 Jun 2006 22:23 | # I was banned from gene expression after only one post. The discussions there are often quite interesting, though, so I have recently begun commenting there again, and they let me through. I don’t know exactly how their “banning” procedure works, but it appears to be temporary, although it might have something to do with the fact that I moved, and have a different IP address, or maybe I used a different user name before, I don’t really remember. Anyway, this theory about Indian intestinal flora causing autism is fascinating. What evidence is there of intestinal flora causing autism? Do you have a page somewhere that summarizes your evidence? 12
Posted by James Bowery on Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:12 | # Anyway, this theory about Indian intestinal flora causing autism is fascinating. What evidence is there of intestinal flora causing autism? Do you have a page somewhere that summarizes your evidence? Godless Capitalist linked to an older version of it in the text I copied above but the link got screwed up. A more up to date version is at: http://laboratoryofthestates.com/imbamcoa.html Although I haven’t outlined all the evidence for thinking that intestinal flora, per se, are the cause. My main reason for positing that specific subhypothesis out of the more general class of hypotheses (presented in <a >The Genetic Omnidominance Hypothesis: The Amygdala and Parasitic Castration</a>) is due to the fact that there is something specific that is low cost that people can do to reduce their risk: Simply avoid Indian restaurants if you a) have any suspected Finnish ancestry and b) are attempting to have children or raise infants. 15
Posted by GNXP stinks on Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:01 | # GC is *not* Jewish, nor Chinese. He is an American-born South Asian of Indian descent. That is definite and is openly admitted in the past at GNXP. You can always ask Derbyshire if you still doubt it. James, if the amygdala hypothesis is correct, then one should eschew contact with all South Asians (including the American-born), or, at least, prevent contact between South Asians and white children (particularly of Finnish or similar descent). Avoiding Indian eateries is certainly a good idea, but probably does not go far enough. For white families, particularly of certain ancestries and with male children, social ostracism of South Asians, in general, may be the most prudent course of action. If South Asians deem this “unfair”, then they should support open research into your findings, so that we can determine with more accuracy the cause of the observed correlation. Preventing such research leaves us with the cautious approach outlined above. 16
Posted by James Bowery on Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:21 | # Yes, social exclusion of South Asians would be advisable as well if it weren’t for the fact that the cost to many of us would be unacceptable seeing as how we are dependent on making money to eat and shelter ourselves. It is the tragedy of our time that the desire for approximation of ancestral environments is based on reasonable caution about critical developmental stages—and is portrayed as the ultimate evil by, what our own John Bolton has called, “vectorists” who are running the moral equivalent of a global theocracy. Godless Capitalist and his ilk are far from godless—they are enthusiastic supporters of this global theocracy whatever they may say. 17
Posted by Yarus on Fri, 09 Jun 2006 19:45 | # I must agree with President Shrub here. I don’t see what Godless Capitalist has done wrong; he was correct in stating you are leaping to conclusions with your GOD hypothesis by having a theory before hand, i.e. those foul Indians are causing trouble, and then finding ‘evidence’ to prove it in an unscientific manner. It is very interesting that autism is more frequent among those of Finnish ancestry, and it is also very interesting that the amygdala is affected in autism. But other than that, your paper is without scientific merit. For instance, you state that testosterone levels can be greatly affected by environment and emotions. That is very true: the hypothalamus excretes luteinizing hormone which in turn stimulates testosterone production in the nuts, and the hypothalamus can be affected by emotions. What you are suggesting is that competition from non-whites is stressing out whites, causing them to have lower testosterone, and also somehow causing more autistic whites to be born. Wtf?! Has it not occured to you that there are many things other than non-white competition that cause people, in this case white males, to get stressed out? Surely competition in general, or indeed other factors like working hours or workload, may contribute to stress. Claiming that amygdala shrinkage, supposedly due to evil Indians taking up The White Man’s computing jobs in Silicon Valley, and TWM memorizing their faces and being contaminated by their stomach bacteria all leads to autism is harebrained, to put it bluntly. The jury is very much out on the causes of autism. You seemed to have ignored other possible causes, such as medicines, vacines, foods, pollutants etc. There is also a hereditary component in alot of cases, especially with mild autism (e.g. Asperger’s). If you mention certain types of faces and the recognition of such faces causing autism in males, perhaps it could extend to inorganic objects, such as cars, buildings, TVs etc. etc.? I don’t think GC is banning you because he’s trying to supress the horrible Indian autism conspiracy, I think he’s banning you because you’ve expressed an overt political agenda, which from what I’ve seen is against the rules. If you were expressing a Marxist blank slate agenda, you would most likely be banned as well, seeing as GC gets pissed off at such people, and rightly so. None of this has proven what caste he is either. Hey, even if lower castes in India DID have some bug that causes autism, what makes you think it’s spread out across the entire subcontinent? If anyone here is dealing out logical fallacies, it’s you, in your post addressing Pres. Shrub. I get it, he got 0 views, and you got 400-something views, .’. your opinions are better. Argumentum ad populum much? Acute skullfuckery of the scientific method aside, your picure on your site suggest you happen(ed) to sport very metally hair, which is cool. 18
Posted by GNXP stinks on Fri, 09 Jun 2006 19:45 | # James: “...is certainly something more consistent with the hypothesis that he is of lower caste ancestry than brahmin, benefiting from affirmative action and posing as a cognitive elitist” Actually, he benefits from affirmative action - de jure and de facto - regardless of his caste ancestry. *All* Asians are considered “socially disadvantaged minorities” (de jure) by the government, and are eligible for small business assistance and other perks denied white men. Even if you wish to argue that this de jure action doesn’t apply to academia (and one can be skeptical there as well), we run into the problem of de facto affirmative action. By this - both ethnic nepotism of Asians “helping their own” in advancement and in reviewing grants and manuscripts, as well as older tenured whites (themselves with secure positions) giving a “helping hand” to a “person of color.” Which leads to James’ justified conclusion: The fact that upper-caste Hindus are facing affirmative action hurdles in India to placate the lower castes is no justification for de jure and de facto preferences for Asians in the United States. The caste system is a South Asian invention and it is their responsibility to deal with the social chaos caused by that system. Westerners are not responsible, and are not obligated to give preferential treatment to upper-caste Indians who wish to benefit from, not suffer from, affirmative action type policies. 19
Posted by GNXP stinks on Fri, 09 Jun 2006 19:58 | # Yarus, I may be prejudiced in that I take James’ side in his ‘conflict’ with GC, but I believe you are being too quick to disregard the suggestive evidence. Let’s look at the amygdala argument, that James mentioned on his website, and which was also mentioned on this blog some time ago. It may be coincidence, but the amygdala is involved with both race recognition and autism. I believe that the argument made here before was - and if I am misquoting it please correct me - that the amygdala of developing (white, especially Finnish) children is capable of efficiently distinguishing among the major racial groups - Whites,Blacks, and Yellows, but has trouble in dealing with groups like South Asians. For most children, this would have no effect, but there may be a particularly susceptible sub-population which, after repeated exposure to South Asians, may exhibit a amygdala-related “neurological shock”, inducing autism. That is a hypothsis, as is James’ idea of intestinal flora. By all means, let us test these ideas; no one claims they are definite. *The problem* is when the correlation is rejected out of hand, with a refusal to even contemplate examining possible mechanisms. You also seem to imply that GNXP are all open-minded folks who only ban in extreme cases. Or, that is what their recent “4 year anniversary self-love fest” would have you believe. In point of fact, this blog was founded to a large extent because of GNXP’s tendency to ban/delete those they disagree with. Everyone can do what they please on their own blog, but, for example, when GNXP attacks WN, and then bans WNs from replying, deleting the comments, then that is not a forum for open debate. And, if you do not think that GNXP has a political agenda as well, you are very naive my friend. 20
Posted by Sigurd on Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:24 | # Without ever having visited the site Gene Expression, nor having heard of the creature known as Godless Capitalist, I found that the title of this article, “Evidence that Godless Capitalist is Lower Caste”, contained an unintentional, universal truism, namely that, yes, the godless capitalist is a lower caste. The Godless nationalist on the otherhand… 21
Posted by James Bowery on Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:45 | # Yarus, you missed the point which I perhaps took too great pains introducing: Godless Capitalist doesn’t know whereof he speaks when he accuses me of “Data Mining” and it is inescably obvious that it is due to his egregious ignorance and/or stupidity. 22
Posted by Yarus on Fri, 09 Jun 2006 23:44 | # GNXP sucks, I can accept that facial recognition and it’s relationship with autism should be looked into, even if it seems extremely unlikely to be of any significance. It’s just that India is a huge continent, with huge biodiversity among the populace. Some Indians look like dark Mediterraneans, some with almost black skin, some with long thin noses, snub noses, thick and thin lips etc. etc. What specific population of India is James concerned about, and what is it about their face that is harmful for a young infants brain? Come to think of it, I don’t see how facial recognition has anything to do with amygdala malfunction; the fusiform gyrus is the part of the brain that deals with facial recognition. If you’re going to make a scientific hypothesis, you’re going to have to involve more skepticism and way more material from neuroscienctific papers, especially about autism and endocrinology. Infact, research on white families living in the subcontinent would be very handy indeed. James states that the reason he’s made this Indian/Autism theory is because if it were true and people weren’t doing anything about it, the problem could get out of hand. I ask: how can you be sure? Surely we should concentrate on investigating other more likely culprits, such as toxins and heavy metal (I don’t mean the good musical kind) pollutants, which have been proven to affect the brain? If you were going to research the affect of people’s faces on causing autism, you shouldn’t immediately say it’s the fault Indian people. I would suggest using Finnish children and show them pictures of people of various ethnicities, including Indian, while employing fMRI to scan brain activity, and see abnormalities in activity occurs when the kid looks at some Indian dude’s noggin. If you are scared of them becoming autistic, perhaps oldish children should be used. Until then, you aren’t going to get any scientific backing at all by saying “Indians!! Jews!!! Feminism!! Gays!!” in that paper of yours. It just reeks of Awful Link Of The Day material to be linked to SomethingAwful.com. I really don’t see why everyone hates GNXP. I’m guessing it’s mostly because they don’t like white nationalists, but you do realise they hate [insert race/ethnicity]-nationalists of any sort and blank slaters/race deniers? I thought GNXP specifically stated that it’s a science forum, not a politics forum. If James said something like “perhaps intestinal flora can cause autism, and perhaps we should investigate if it occurs more in some groups than others?” or “maybe facial recognition at an early age could lead to brain malformation, thus leading to autism? It could be from TV, people, magazines etc.” then that would be acceptable, and I guess fellow GNXPers might even look over the same statistics as James has. It’s obviously going to be offensive to GC if you outright claim that Indians are to blame for autism, and that they’re carriers of infectious gut germs. I would be offended if, for example, Italians claimed those of Irish/English descent were to blame for people of Italians getting skin cancer more than usual, and thus should be prevented from associating with people in Italy. I would become more angry once I found out that the Italian making these claims was inspired by English/Irish types stealing The Italian Man’s computing jobs and thusly tried to find suitable correllations supposedly proving a skin cancer causing Irish/English population. If you haven’t guessed yet, I’m Irish/English… What kind of political agenda do you suppose GNXP is pushing? Jim, “Data mining” used to mean “data dredging”, which is what you are doing by creating a hypothesis from merely observing data. I don’t see how mistaking one word for another, especially if a) they are very similar and b) one used to mean the other not too long ago, means one is greatly stupid or ignorant. Perhaps I took too great a pain trying to show how crackpot your paper was? Maybe that proves that you are unintelligent? Not really. An IQ test would do fine. Just because someone makes an easy terminological mistake doesn’t mean they’re unintelligent, nor does it mean you should write an article about it… 23
Posted by James Bowery on Fri, 09 Jun 2006 23:50 | # Yarus, you too are stupid and/or ignorant but its not really worth the time to go over it all for you. Suffice to say GC didn’t just make a terminology error—he founded his entire critique on the idea that what I was doing was Data Dredging (which he called Data Mining in the indicting sense—which is an accepted use of that phrase as I already pointed out). 24
Posted by James Bowery on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:38 | # GNXP stinks, I think it is worse than that. Read the <a >GNXP retrospective</a> where they say:
The “affirmative action” at work here is actually pretty obvious: “Moderation” is no virtue when the truth is at stake—only realism is. There has been a long history going back to the 19th century of taking realists and attacking them via vicious slander and libel targeted at people identified as white. The most disgusting abuse of this suppressing fire was the resurgence of human sociobiology under the moniker of “evolutionary psychology” by the Jews Tooby and Cosmides who, by virtue of their ethnicity, were allowed to operate without too much libel as they redefined the field devoid of genetic diversity and ‘g’. To some extent the criticism applies to Hernstein. Then you had triangulators like Rushton (using Asian ‘superiority’ as his shield) who opened up the ground for later triangulators like Sailer (triangulation is basically strategically looking at where the conflict is and putting yourself in the middle so you can appear moderate—then moving in the direction of realism when it is safe to do so but never really coping to the fact that you let someone else take the bullets for you). Then of course you finally have guys like Razib and GC who get to pull things off because they have brown skin—a de facto form of affirmative action—and they get to say that those people who were slandered and libeled viciously before them were actually guilty of the accusations while they, on the other hand, are “cognitive elitists”. The whole thing leads to a heirarchy of politicial bullshit with the bodies of heroes littering the landscape. 25
Posted by Yarus on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:45 | # Jim, Explain why I’m what you claim me to be. Surely you are ignorant in disregarding other factors that might cause autism and by focusing only on a flimsy hypothesis that you crafted out of spite of those who compete against you in the work place? 26
Posted by ben tillman on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 02:41 | # Tooby & Cosmides are Jewish? I thought they were just cowards. 27
Posted by Yarus on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 02:43 | # The paradigm you’ve quoted is not limited to white nationalists, as I have already said. However, I guess you’re right that it is wrong for GNXP to attack ‘x’ and then prevent them from replying. You may not hate them, but from reading alot of comments on this site alot of people enjoy saying how dumb GNXPers are and how ignorant they are, while ignoring stupid, incoherent comments made by other white people on the same comment page. This led me to believe there is alot of hate going around. I should’ve said “most people on this blog” instead of “everyone”, soz. James (again), As I said, if you want to argue that intestinal flora, face perception and stress could cause autism then please do so. From such research, maybe we might find that Indian immigrants to the US could be a cause of autism, although if that’s extremely unlikely. What I’m trying to say is that you’re argument is in the wrong order. You’re suggesting that Indians may indeed cause autism, thus we must find out the reasons why, i.e. faces, flora, stress etc. Not only will this offend people, but it makes the avenue of research too narrow. It would be much easier to instead investigate the effects of intestinal flora, facial recognition and stress on people and THEN see if Indians disproportionately have certain attributes that could cause autism in young Finns. Who knows, maybe the pheremones of Irish/English people secreted while pizza is being eaten might cause autism in Finns? It sounds a bit crazy, but it would’ve been reached through unbiased sound scientific reasoning that follows proper methodology if it were true. I’ve already explained this in one of my previous posts, yet you still call me arrogant and/or stupid. I apoligize, however, for overlooking your definition of the pejorative form of data mining. Andrew, I can’t really understand what you’re saying, for your syntax and punctuation is all over the place. Why do you wish to follow James when he seems to be flouting a “pseudo intellectual hypothesis”, or are you being sarcastic? 28
Posted by Yarus on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:35 | # You have to be kidding. Of course whites aren’t a dying race. Birth rates overall amongst those usually thought of as white are still positive. Even though James is a very good statistical analysist, he isn’t a very adept biologist, is prone to leaping to paranoid conclusions and isn’t that good a scientist. Sorry, dude. It would be foolhardy to study Indians, which is a very vague term considering the huge amount of ethnicities in India, to discover if they cause autism. James has come up with various theories as to why they might cause autism, theories which hardly anyone in the scientific community has discussed, but may well be worth studying. I’m merely suggesting that it would be easier to study the theories James has put forward (faces, flora, stress etc.), see if any of them are the cause of the problem, and then study Indian people - amongst many other ethnicities, including whites - to see if they disproportionately have any autism-causing characteristics. Even if such studies are carried out, as I’ve said one has to get it in their head that India is a mahooosive place with loads of biodiversity among the citizens. It’s unlikely that every single Indian would be prone to making Finns autistic. Why is what I’ve just said stupid and/or ignorant? Why wasn’t my Italian/Irish analogy good enough? Can none of you realise how irrational it is to sever contact from Indians just because of some correllation? 29
Posted by EC on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:58 | # You have to be kidding. Of course whites aren’t a dying race. Birth rates overall amongst those usually thought of as white are still positive. Please clarify and how you came to this conclusion in view of this data. As to Godless Capitalist, whether JB’s assertion is correct or not is irrelevant to the fact that GC is vociferously against white racialism. He is aware what racial awareness entails for people of his ilk and argues against it based on BAD faith. As Svigor above aptly states, he and Razib are simply brown liars. That is the gist of it. 30
Posted by Yarus on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:20 | # I thought GC was against politics being discussed on his blog? WN is a political affliation, thus shouldn’t be discussed on his blog. It’s James’ fault for obviously voicing a strong political stance by suggesting that ethnic group X causes autism. He could’ve easily suggested instead that maybe there’s a bug that causes autism, or maybe types of facial recognition causes autism, or maybe stress causes autism, and from discussing such subjects maybe people might reach the same conclusion as James, although that is very unlikely because it is a silly hypothesis. He should’ve read the rules properly and tried to push his theory in a way which wouldn’t of got him banned. If a socialist, for example, suggested on GNXP that big buisiness causes autism, and managed to produce good correllations between GDP per capita and autism, and proposed that people vote for socialist governments to take power until the relationship between big buisiness and autism had been established, he would’ve been banned like crazy. Sure, autism seems to be more prevalent in richer countries but saying it’s caused by capitalism is extremely vague, as is blaming Indians. It is a bit silly of them to make fun of political groups and then prevent said political groups from replying, yes. You must realise that they also take the piss out of [insert ethnicity] nationalists of any kind, and especially left wingers, yet you don’t seem to complain that they’re being unfair to said groups. I agree it’s a bit unfair, but on the other hand it would waste time if politics were allowed to be discussed freely. Bringing politics into scientific discussion can often slow things down too much. If you are a WN posting on GNXP, then voice your scientific opinions in a way which won’t label you as a WN. Same goes if you’re a Chinese nationalist, or a communist or a Satanist or whatever. If they make fun of a political group, then email them, from a politically neutral perspective, and convince them to stop hypocritically dissing political groups (which is by no means limited to white nationalism, which is what you claim). If that doesn’t work, set up a website and/or a petition to protest against GNXPers engaging in such hypocrisy, again from a politically neutral perspective. I don’t think GC argued against white nationalism on bad faith, he’s pretty spot on when he hypothesised the US would be ruined if the entire country were balkanised into ethnic enclaves, especially if whites were a plurality at such a time. Of course, he definately shouldn’t argue about such things now the no-politics rule is in place, unless he wishes to be hypocritical. 31
Posted by GNXP stinks on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:27 | # First Yarus admits that GNXP is anti- racial nationalist, and then he questions what their political agenda is! LOL! And their opposition to “all” racial nationalism (strangely absent when some Asian guy started running down whites a few years ago in the comments section) can be viewed as a strategic decision – as minorities, the founders of GNXP have an interest to delegitimize WN. To convince whites of the illegitimacy of racial nationalism, they cannot up and say “hey, for us, racial nationalism is OK.” That would trigger ethnocentric responses in some whites. The aim of GNXP is to lull whites to sleep, and reinforce non-ethnocentric behavior in whites, a wise strategy for desis. GNXP as non-political? Hardly: http://www.vdare.com/letters/tl_080104.htm Oleg from the Diekenes blog: GC himself: Of course, if the last sentence is correct, why is GNXP so obsessed with such a non-viable movement? They do protest too much. Now, no one here claims that the amygdala or intestinal flora hypotheses *must* be true. All we say is that James’ correlations strongly suggest something that needs to be investigated. And, until this can occur, prudence suggests social ostracism of South Asians. Your straw man arguments about other ethnic groups and skin cancer and other such nonsense is irrelevant. Where is the correlation data and what is the *reasonable* hypothesis to be tested? You have none, you are just attempting to ridicule James’ work by citing any ludicrous example you can. It doesn’t wash. Your comments about the “biodiversity” of India are irrelevant as well. If the flora hypothesis is correct, then it may well be that most South Asians are so infected; may we test a population sample, or do you object to that as well? If the amygdala hypothesis is correct, then the internal variation in India is not important; what is important is how a young white child (or, the amygdala of said child) reacts to the range of physical appearances characteristic of South Asians. That there is not one “single typical appearance” is not relevant as long as most (or all?) of the appearance types are such to “confuse” white amygdala function. And don’t obfuscate the issue by dealing with exceptions – a few Indians may look white or a few may look black, or a few, in the extreme northeast, may look oriental. The vast majority of South Asians do not look like any of these groups. Razib has posted his picture online, and he is typical of most South Asians that many of us here have seen in the USA. He does not look white, nor black, nor East Asian, but has characteristics of all 3 groups. We are talking about South Asians as a group, not single individuals who may be outliers. 32
Posted by GNXP stinks on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:37 | # “It’s James’ fault for obviously voicing a strong political stance by suggesting that ethnic group X causes autism” What stupidity is this? Have the people at GNXP stopped talking about racial differences in intelligence? You talk about politics not influencing science, then you say we must not offend ethnic groups by citing data that may upset them! Who is harming science now? Should we refrain from discussing data and ideas that have biomedical consequences simply because it may offend someone? Is that not political? How about Razib mocking Finns, and ridiculing Jan Michael Vincent’s northern-adapted personality complex? How does that fit into your vision of GNXP as a non-political, non-offensive bastion of solid science? They are *always* - even now- talking about differences between groups, differences that are just as politically relevant as what James suggests. Your personal opinion about GC being “spot on” is just that, a personal opinion. Others may think differently, no? Your opinion about GC’s “ideas” does not alter the *fact* of GNXP’s hypocrisy, that they bring up topics, then ban the opposition - and *then* congratulate themselves on how they “always win the arguments!” 33
Posted by GNXP stinks on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:46 | # Yarus’ ignorance or mendacity: 34
Posted by Yarus on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:34 | # I don’t see how my Italian-Irish/English-skin cancer example was a strawman. I was trying to say that just because a correllation exists doesn’t mean it’s a viable thing to act upon, and the hypothesis James has come up with is definately not viable to act upon. Seeing as there’s some sort of correllation between the GDP per capita of a country and the rates of autism in said country, perhaps we should get rid of lots of money before proper investigation proves the hypothesis correct or not? Of course not. More cars have been sold than ever before, and more cases of autism have been diagnosed than ever before, so I guess we should ditch all motor vehicles and go everywhere by bike? As much as I would like that, it wouldn’t work out in real life, and is an irrational thing to act upon. James’ hypothesis is also irrational to act upon. Perhaps he should do some more research before he decides to blame Indians for causing autism? He may even find another ethnic group that correllates strongly with autism levels among Finns, and it may even be a white one for all we know. I’m not suggesting amygdala stuff and bacteria stuff shouldn’t be studied, of course they should. I’m trying to say, for the nth time, that James is going about it the wrong way. He’s saying: 1) Levels of autism seem to correllate with levels of Indians in a certain area. Thus, we must seperate ourselves from them. He should’ve said: 1) I have several intriguing theories as to what might cause autism. Let’s test them. Can you see which would be most acceptable and most likely to work? Stop using strawman arguments, I’m not denying that GNXPers are capable of hypocrisy and I’ve already stated I resent such hypocrisy. Intelligence differences between groups is based on solid evidence; autism causing factors among Indians is definately not. I don’t think IQ testing was devised in order to prove non-whites inferior, for example, and nor do I think further research into autism should be spurred by a fear of Indians. Jeez… Of course we shouldn’t refrain from discussion of ideas that might be offensive, but making crazy claims without following proper methodology isn’t the right way to go about it, as I’ve explained countless times!! And Soren, as much as I’m sorry for confusing a word, I wasn’t raping the rules of English syntax and punctuation. 35
Posted by EC on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:04 | # I thought GC was against politics being discussed on his blog? WN is a political affliation, thus shouldn’t be discussed on his blog. WN is not a political affiliation. BTW, I said white racialism and not nationalism. There is a difference. Regardless, it is what it is and to most, it is a natural human tendency to gravitate towards one ethny. There is nothing political about it except for the fact that it is smeared as such by the MSM. Now, GC talks up all sorts of things including racial reality and IQ differences. They love to hammer home the ignorant negro stats considering most browns absolutely abhor blacks. Whites jumping into the fray are welcome as long as there is no mention of white solidarty. This is hypocrisy and knowing that GC has more than two neurons to rub together, he willfully is lying about where to draw this comfortable line of his. You must realise that they also take the piss out of [insert ethnicity] nationalists of any kind, and especially left wingers, yet you don’t seem to complain that they’re being unfair to said groups. I’ve never attempted to refute this nor do I have an issue where they blog or comment about such things. The issue is their rightful fear of white racialism. He, they are threatened by this and it can be glossed by the quotes “GNXP stinks” has above. They state all sorts of facts about racial reality, ethnic genetic interests, social identity theory and the like. All comes to a screeching halt when a white decides to interject some white racialism. 36
Posted by EC on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:06 | # How about a comment on the birth rates and how whites are not a dying race? Was that an unfounded assumption? 37
Posted by Yarus on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:31 | # I admit me stating that white fertility rates are more than 2.1 was based on a faulty study, soz. But that doesn’t mean whites are dying out. If whites only numbered 10 million in the whole world then yeah, we would be dying out. But we number waaaay more than that. I always thought WN, or at least the mainstream WN mission (which is basically white seperatism) was a political affliation because of it’s desire to create a white ethnostate? That’s very political. I am aware that people tend to gravitate to their own kind, but that doesn’t always conflict with political ideology. You could be a white liberal and still want to live near whites, unless they were conservative Biblebelt whites I guess, but you see what I mean. What proof do you have to back up the statement “most browns absolutely abhor blacks”? What on Earth do you mean by brown? Suntanned Greeks? Indonesians? Dravidians? That’s an unfounded assumption if I ever saw one. I’ve seen debates on GNXP come to screeching halts when an angry left-winger insults everyone, at least until the accused was banned. It’s not just WNs who mess up things. GNXP sucks, I don’t think Razib looks like the ‘majority’ of Indians at all. Indians looking similar to whites (or at least Iranians) are by no means a blip, for they number millions and millions in Northwest India. 38
Posted by EC on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 18:41 | # But that doesn’t mean whites are dying out. If whites only numbered 10 million in the whole world then yeah, we would be dying out. But we number waaaay more than that. When fertility is below 2 and on average whites are around the 1.5 mark, globally, that means over time they will die out or become assimilated, genocided, or miscegenated into something else. It does not necessarily have to mean TOMORROW whites will die out, but it does mean that if things continue as is, then that will be the end result. I always thought WN, or at least the mainstream WN mission (which is basically white seperatism) was a political affliation because of it’s desire to create a white ethnostate? That’s very political. Says f**king who? Are brown ethnostates political? Black? Yellow? No, they are not because that is the natural order of things. Whites have a white continent and white nations. This was never an issue prior to 4 or so decades ago. In actuality, it was harped on before that, however the 60’s was the beginning of this egalitarian nightmare. What proof do you have to back up the statement “most browns absolutely abhor blacks”? What on Earth do you mean by brown? Brown is how Browns refer themselves to each other. Razib does it regularly, though all do it or at least the ones who speak English. I truly hope you are not going to trot out, “but it’s a slur” tripe. If they refer to themselves as Brown, then so will I. Same goes for Blacks and the word Negro or nigger. Once they stop, then so will I. We cannot live with double standards now can we? As to them hating Blacks, jeez, simply read how they froth when Blacks are mentioned on GNXP. Also, over the last 20 years, I have known, in varying degrees, at least several thousand Browns. To a man, they hate Blacks and view them as inferior, slovenly, violent and crime prone. I do not think this was selection bias on my part. I’ve seen debates on GNXP come to screeching halts when an angry left-winger insults everyone, at least until the accused was banned. It’s not just WNs who mess up things. Again, this is a non sequitur. When they berate left wingers, they do so with facts and throw the liberal fallacies back in their faces. That is not what happens with WNs as you well know if you frequent the sight as much as you say you do. 39
Posted by Yarus on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 18:55 | # Actually alot of the stuff WNs have said on GNXP aren’t very scientific, i.e. “East Asians are definately less creative”, “whites have ALWAYS been on top” and “no non-white state can sustain Western civilization and culture when we die out”. By the way, just because fertility rates are slightly below 2.1 doesn’t mean we are in danger of extinction. We aren’t an endangered species, as so many paranoid WNs claim. Speaking of white nationalism, sorry, it IS political in today’s political climate. Preferring people similar to one’s self just involves moving to a certain area, not voting for a certain party/candidate. White nationalism, at least the common definition of it, involves trying to create a white ethnostate, and that is undeniably political. I know it wasn’t 60 years ago and beyond, but that’s irrelevant. You still haven’t clarified what particular ethnicity you mention when you say “brown”. 40
Posted by EC on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59 | # Actually alot of the stuff WNs have said on GNXP aren’t very scientific, i.e. “East Asians are definately less creative”, “whites have ALWAYS been on top” and “no non-white state can sustain Western civilization and culture when we die out”. I never saw that when I frequented the site some time back. All WN discussion was quite scientific and fact based. Now, if they allow some not-so-read-up WNs to make asses of themselves in order for them to point their brown fingers and say “see how stupid they are”, then that is a problem of theirs and not WNs. In my opinion of course. just because fertility rates are slightly below 2.1 doesn’t mean we are in danger of extinction. We aren’t an endangered species, as so many paranoid WNs claim. Again, you are placing unfounded solace in the “just under 2.1” assertion and that an extinction will be in some distant future, “if ever”. All White nations are under the replacement level. Some hover around the 1 mark, meaning that their population will halve in a generation. To me, that is quite drastic. If it continues, Whites will cease to exist. Not if, but when. Also, 1.5 is not “just under” 2.1. Two is just under 2.1. Speaking of white nationalism, sorry, it IS political in today’s political climate. So in that case, since you are so adamant, when are you going to start clamouring for diversification of Black, Brown, and Yellow lands? You CANNOT have it both ways. Either these other ethnostates are natural, then so are we or they are political. Let me know how they take your “political” view towards their homelands. As for me, I view it as being NORMAL without the need for this WN designation. The designation is not something WE wanted but was foisted onto our shoulders in order to slur normal behaviour of Whites.
South Asians are Brown as the most common reference. Some (?many) in the US refer to Mexicans as brown as well. I’m more “old school” and maintain that South Asians are the true browns. 41
Posted by GNXP stinks on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:07 | # “Actually alot of the stuff WNs have said on GNXP aren’t very scientific, i.e. “East Asians are definately less creative”, “whites have ALWAYS been on top” and “no non-white state can sustain Western civilization and culture when we die out”. Gee, Yarus, if a WN makes a more intelligent answer - one the GNXPers can’t answer - then they just delete the comment and ban the commentator. Why is this: Because, brainless, There are no such data, because that is just some idiotic example that popped into what passes for your “brain.” On the other hand, James has shown that the top correlation for Finnish autism is Indians. He has DATA. You have nothing except your drool on your computer keyboard. 2. What mechanism to you propose, pray tell? Irish/English people shooting UV rays at Italians? There have been two, in my opinion, reasonable hypotheses here (intestinal flora, amygdala) to explain James’ correlation. The differences between your “example” and James’ *real* correlation should be obvious to anyone with a triple-digit IQ, which you obviously lack. I have already explained why the range of appearance in South Asia is irrelevant, as long as the bulk of the range is way outside the norms of other groups. By “white”, I mean European, not Iranians. Most South Asians that most here encounter in the USA are of the Razib type. The question of autism though is secondary to me. The main issue is GNXP’s hypocrisy and your mendacity. Their site is obviously political; blacks can be critically examined, but not Asians (by whites) - the whole context of the site, politically speaking, is “to make sure America is kept safe for high-IQ recent non-white Immigrants.” Your own arguments are illogical and absurd. Do you need a definition of “brown?” Look at the picture of Razib - but don’t show it to a young white child; you may induce autism. 42
Posted by GNXP stinks on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:46 | # The main problem - giving too much attention to the over-rated GNXP site. That site’s only utlility (which is shared by Sailer and Pontikos) is to point the reader in the direction of the original source material (manuscripts, books, essays, editorials, studies, etc.). The actual commentary on the site falls into one of three categories: I could add a fourth category, which is a fusion of 1 and 3, as demonstrated by the following wonderfully scientific, non-political, and non-offensive excerpt - Razib of Gene Expression: Indeed, one assumes that an arrogant Bengali is better suited for this “harsh glare” than is the “withdrawn northern drunk” Vincent. My only criticism of James here is that he shouldn’t waste his time commenting on GNXP. Who is there? Self-serving South Asians, servile whites, and idiots like Yarus. Watching paint dry would be a more productive activity. 43
Posted by ben tillman on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 21:27 | # I don’t think GC argued against white nationalism on bad faith…. But arguments against the legitimacy of self-defense can ONLY be offered in good faith. White nationalism is nothing more than an attempt to form a cohesive group of whites to defend themselves against the aggression of other races and, thus, to secure a future for themselves. 44
Posted by Guessedworker on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:54 | # Svi, the notion you ascribe to me actually came from another. 45
Posted by Yarus on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:05 | #
Well I saw quite a bit of it, infact every single WN I saw posting had to try and make whites seem superior in almost everysingle way.
Strawman again… I’m just saying in the Western world, white nationalism happens to be viewed as far rightist by most. It wasn’t far rightist in say 1750, and ethnic nationalism isn’t particularly rightist in Japan, although there are quite a few political groups in there who wish to ease immigration laws.
Not from where I’m from they aren’t. Besides, it’s too vague a term. People that have whitish skin are pretty homogenous, as are those with yellowish skin, but brown skinned people are extremely diverse.
Perhaps they shouldn’t have let on that they’re WNs then?!
Why is the data valid? Has he not tried other ethnicities? Has he not tried other factors apart from people? Come to think of it, we’re just taking his word that he’s found the correllation. What I’m saying is that if a correllation WAS found between Irishmen and skin cancer rates in Italians, it would be foolish to immediately suggest we both sever contact between the two people and try to find out why the Irish are toxic. Maybe the Italian (who hates the Irish for whatever reason, i.e. gingerphobia) would hypothesise that Italians react to a pheremone given off by the Irish or something that makes Italians more susceptible to skin cancer. That was a hypothesis, but a similar thing has happened in real life. James has found a correllation between autism in Finns and Indian immigrants, and hasn’t done much investigation into any other factors, including other ethnicities, pollutants, computer usage, cars et bloody cetera. As I keep fookin’ saying, he should’ve went about his claims in reverse order which wouldn’t of revealed him as a white nationalist. I’ve already bloody addressed this. Why doesn’t anyone understand?! Perhaps I’m not the only one with drool on the keyboard, sheesh…
Maybe in your neck of the woods, but the majority of Indians I’ve seen, such as at the hospital, are enormously variable in phenotype. They range from short, dark Dravidians to big, thin nosed paleish Northern types. Millions and millions and millions of Indians look rather similar to Iranians, i.e. in the Northwest. I don’t understand why you aren’t suggesting we sever contact from Iranians as well.
Not really. I’ve seen GC commenting on being agnostic over the supposed “creativity deficit” in East Asians, for example.
I agree, that’s hypocritical and unfair of him to say that, I’m not denying that. I’m just saying it’s stupid to complain about being banned for being a WN if that’s in the bloody rules!! I don’t care if the bloggers are being hypocritical, even though it’s annoying, rules are there to be followed. I already suggested a solution to the problem, i.e. create a politically neutral protest site or something along those lines. It isn’t going to help anything by creating whiney articles guessing the supposed caste of the guy who banned you.
As a teenager, I don’t find that especially repugnant. It might change as I grow older, although I would like to retain at least a bit of juvenility. Svyatoslav, thank you for clarifying the definition of white nationalism for me, I am grateful. I guess nationalism doesn’t neccessarily mean major action, i.e. separation of territory or “kill teh mudz!!1”. However, “sticking to one’s own kind” WN is different from the kind seen at GNXP, which is overwhelmingly “creation of a white ethnostate” WN. Even so, just because you are racially aware, white or non-white, it shouldn’t affect the scientific discussion. I think that’s what GNXP is trying to do: create a science only atmosphere. However, I do agree it’s naughty of them to make fun of political groups if they’re forbidding political discussion or just discussion that seems to reveal an obvious political agenda. Maybe they could create a seperate politics-friendly blog/forum? That could make things less confusing. 46
Posted by ben tillman on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:24 | # But arguments against the legitimacy of self-defense can ONLY be offered in good faith. Did I really type that? Correction: But arguments against the legitimacy of self-defense can ONLY be offered in bad faith. 47
Posted by ben tillman on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:44 | # I think that’s what GNXP is trying to do: create a science only atmosphere. They are ideologues, and their ideology is designed to atomize whites. As ideologues, they do not tolerate discussion of the scientific principles that are at odds with their ideology. They are not scientists. :isten to GC’s words:
Science says GC can’t have property in America (property is a moral concept, and he is not part of the American moral community) and that we should deport him. To conceal these facts he must engage in obscurantism. 48
Posted by EC on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:50 | # Well I saw quite a bit of it, infact every single WN I saw posting had to try and make whites seem superior in almost everysingle way. I highly doubt that. In fact, I would venture to guess it may have been the minority UNLESS they happened to taper the WN commenting pool to simple, poorly read types. Strawman again… I’m just saying in the Western world, white nationalism happens to be viewed as far rightist by most. It wasn’t far rightist in say 1750, and ethnic nationalism isn’t particularly rightist in Japan, although there are quite a few political groups in there who wish to ease immigration laws. It most certainly is NOT a strawman to expect equal treatment of all races on this planet, is it? No, it is not. You do not have much of an issue in the regard that Whites and white nations are treated not only unfairly, but also racially discriminated against. What I said was if whites who proffer for a white (read genetically normal) ethnostate are viewed as “political”, then so should China, India, most if not all of Africa. What’s strawmanish about that? Also, finding healthy white nationalism, again read as NORMAL, one need to go back to the late 60s and early 70s, not 1750. After that is when it was somehow viewed ABnormal when whites were acting normal. Not from where I’m from they aren’t. Besides, it’s too vague a term. People that have whitish skin are pretty homogenous, as are those with yellowish skin, but brown skinned people are extremely diverse. Then I suggest you take up this issue with all South Asians who refer to each other as Brown. There are a tremendous lot of them so you have your work cut out. They don’t seem to mind nor do they view it as a slight. Why all the fuss? This NON-issue about Browns reminds me of a feminist blog I was reading a few days back. This one feminist made such an issue about MIT not necessarily being the sole meme acronym for Massachusetts Institute of Technology. She insisted that many people when using MIT mean Michigan Inst of Tech. LOL Yeah, there may be a Michigan MIT (though no one has really heard about it), just like Brown may mean other groups. Though the difference is South Asians refer to themselves as Browns. Do Mexicans or anyone else for that matter? No. In your neck of the woods, who is “brown”? Just out of curiosity. 49
Posted by EC on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:54 | # More GC words and some strawmen too…
50
Posted by Yarus on Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:56 | # I thought they’re quite atomized inviduals themselves. I’ve seen them saying that they don’t think that much about their ancestry. As I keep saying, I don’t think they should voice political opinions on the science blog they have, and that they should create a separate semi-political/science blog for that. I thought they didn’t tolerate discussion that is obviously politically motivated? Please explain why science says GC should be deported. 51
Posted by ben tillman on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:02 | # I’d be interested in stats of the intermarriage rates of earlier European populations, but I bet that rates hovering around 50% for Jews and South Asians…. This 50% figure for Jews is bogus. It’s more like 20%. 52
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:07 | # EC, I’ve seen stupid hyper-biased comments made by WNs from very early on in GNXP’s history, when they were more welcome. Skepticism was non existent; trying to prove whites as superior in most respects was very common. You were implying I am acting to diversify white nations, i.e. that I’m a multiculturist. That was the strawman. That’s not true, to an extent (I wouldn’t mind smallish intelligent groups that assimilated properly). I’m not a WN because I belive low IQ white chavs pose a big threat in my country, the UK. I’ve never heard of Indians or Pakistanis calling each other “browns” around where I live. I’ve already stated that I don’t appreciate GC or anyone else expressing political views in a science blog, there’s no need to quote an example. 53
Posted by ben tillman on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:08 | # I thought they’re quite atomized inviduals themselves. I’ve seen them saying that they don’t think that much about their ancestry. Why is this supposed to be relevant? 54
Posted by EC on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:09 | # This 50% figure for Jews is bogus. It’s more like 20%. Exactly. And that is the case for the US and in only the very liberal parts of the US. The numbers for conservative or orthodox sure doesn’t reach 20%. I doubt, though have no hard evidence, that the total intermarrying rate for all Jews in the US is as high as 20%. Jews in other countries intermarry at an even lower rate. However, it does not keep them from trotting out that old, tired, and obviously false stat. 55
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:15 | # It’s relevant because they seem to be atomizing people indiscriminantly as apposed to just whites, which is what you claim. Why does science forbid GC from living in the US?! 56
Posted by EC on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:19 | # Yarus, if you’ve been reading GNXP for some time now, including “early in its history”, then surely you have read Razib refer to South Asians as Browns. No? The quote from GC was not directed at you. I found it interesting. What are “chavs”? Some derogatory term for unwashed whites? Do you refer to blacks as niggers? Of course only the “low IQ” ones, that is. What you fail to realize is that whatever threat low IQ whites pose is miniscule to what low IQ non-whites pose. No one, unless one happens to feverishly work on some extreme forward looking genetic/mate selecting process, remains “high IQ”. The chances to regress to the norm are astronomical. Hence, your high IQ non-whites become average IQ non-whites with their own interests to look after and not yours. 57
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:49 | #
In the UK, for whatever reason the underclass of the country is predominantly white. These whites have a low average IQ and are called chavs. However, quite alot of Pakistanis seem chavish as well, but the majority of chavs are white. What I’m getting at is that there are hordes of idiotic underclass whites that inhabit the council estates and rundown tower blocks of the country and make life worse for other citizens. They are more often than not on welfare, causing a drain to society, they commit an awful lot of petty crime, they intimidate people, they lower landvalue and they’re breeding like shabbily dressed rabbits. Rabbits that say “u givin it, lark?” alot. It’s my belief that a dysgenic trend has been affecting certain populations in the UK, thus turning them into chavs. These people are breeding much faster than normal white types. This means they may well bring down the average white UK IQ down quite considerably if nothing’s done. Now considering people tend to prefer their own ilk, it would be much easier for this low IQ white group to bring down the mean IQ of all white Britons than for a non-white low IQ population. Thus, the risk isn’t miniscule at all. I know this isn’t happening in the US for some reason, but try to use a little imagination. Search for the term “chav”, if you must. I didn’t mention “high IQ non-whites”. Well done, Captain Strawman! Fred, cheers for correcting me. I’ll use the term birthrates in the future. 58
Posted by ben tillman on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:51 | # It’s relevant because they seem to be atomizing people indiscriminantly as apposed to just whites…. No, they don’t. They atomize people who live in countries that belong to whites. 59
Posted by ben tillman on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:54 | # They’re fighting this war on our territory and are pursuing a dual strategy of atomisation here and solidarity in their own ancestral homelands. 60
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:56 | # Svyatoslav, I have admitted that when GNXPers make fun of political groups they’re being hypocritical. Seeing as they claim to be a fair and square blog, I guess they are being liars. What do you mean by “hither-and-yon acrobatics”? The reason I’m not a WN is because the main WN political group, the BNP, doesn’t accept that low-IQ white chavs pose a great threat to the country, and that isn’t on. 61
Posted by ben tillman on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:58 | # Please explain why science says GC should be deported. He’s a pathogen trying to disorganize (i.e., kill) the organism he lives in. 62
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 00:59 | # I don’t recall GC or Razib saying that India or Bengal should remain as ethnostates. What do you mean by “our territory”? The US? Depends what part of the US you mean. 63
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:02 | # GC is a pathogen?!? What the Christ… What is this organism he’s trying to kill? The US? Whites? East Asians? This is hardly a scientific reason. 64
Posted by EC on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:09 | # Yarus, It’s my belief that a dysgenic trend has been affecting certain populations in the UK, thus turning them into chavs. Very good. One of the first correct things you’ve said today. Though this dysgenic trend is also wreaking havoc on native Brits as well. Then you state this… I didn’t mention “high IQ non-whites”. Well done, Captain Strawman! after you state this… I wouldn’t mind smallish intelligent groups that assimilated properly You need to keep track of just who you prefer to let into your country. Just who are these “smallish intelligent groups that assimilate”, yet aren’t “high IQ non-whites”? Are they other Europeans you refer to? If so, that would be a breath of fresh air after your day long fawn fest of the Browns over at GNXP. You’ll have to forgive me for jumping to those conclusions. 65
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:27 | # I meant both non-native white or non-native non-white small intelligent groups. Thus, your argument is a strawman. I would rather have a small, high-IQ, Zoroastrian Iranian group let into the country than a bunch of criminal-prone idiots from the Ukraine. I’m not saying Ukranians are known for being criminal prone idiots, by the way… >_< I meant that a dysgenic trend is affecting certain groups of whites, thus making them low-IQ. This in turn could negatively affect the entire white population of the country. The same thing has happened with the Pakistani population. The rise of white chavdom in the UK has nothing to do with immigrants or non-whites. 66
Posted by ben tillman on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:28 | # GC is a pathogen?!? What the Christ… This points up the shortcomings of the “science” proffered by advocates of atomisation. Yes, GC is quite literally a pathogen. Surely, you understand what a pathogen is; I suspect the problem is that you don’t know what an organism is. What is this organism he’s trying to kill? The US? Whites? East Asians? You have conceded that they are proponents of atomisation. As such, they attempt to kill (disorganise) every organismic human group consisting of more than one white. Read David Sloan Wilson. This is hardly a scientific reason. The value of an immune system to an organism is hardly a point of scientific controversy. The problem is that your understanding of biology is limited, partly (one presumes) because of GNXP’s biases. 67
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:47 | # Hey, EC, if you haven’t noticed I have been critical of GNXPers numerous times on this page. All that straw seems to be obscuring your vision. Ben, I think the David Lee Roth Fanclub consists of more than one white person, and it is a social organism. Is GC trying to disband them? I’m not ignorant of biology, but you seem to be ignorant of correct terminology. What you are going on about is in the realms of sociology. 68
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:52 | # Fred, nowhere did I suggest flooding the UK with non-natives. This isn’t as simple as a small fluctuation; I don’t think a dysgenic trend has affected a UK population in such a huge way since, well, ever. It may permanently lower the average IQ of UK residents (more specifically white UK residents, seeing as people tend to intermarry within ethnic groups). 69
Posted by ben tillman on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 01:58 | # I’m not ignorant of biology, but you seem to be ignorant of correct terminology. What you are going on about is in the realms of sociology. Absolutely not. You are completely clueless in this regard. I referred you to the literature, which consists primarily of David Sloan Wilson’s writings. Read them, and report back when you have some acquaintance with the biological principles involved. 70
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 02:09 | # What particular writings do you recommend? You’ve said that GC is attempting to kill the organism he lives in. I immediately thought you meant the US, and then I thought perhaps you meant whites as a whole? Then you say he’s trying to disband white ethnic collectivist groups, which is the metaphorical organism you meant. Let me get this straight: GC is living in an organism he’s trying to kill, the organism he’s trying to kill is white nationalism, thus he’s living in white nationalism?!? This still doesn’t explain why he should be deported. 71
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 02:12 | # Fred, calm down, I never said we should add high IQ people, regardless of ethnicity, into the native UK genepool to curb the IQ problem. I just meant I have more to fear from huge amounts of low-IQ fast-breeding natives than small, intelligent, slow-breeding non-native groups. 72
Posted by ben tillman on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 02:50 | # You’ve said that GC is attempting to kill the organism he lives in. I immediately thought you meant the US, and then I thought perhaps you meant whites as a whole? Then you say he’s trying to disband white ethnic collectivist groups, which is the metaphorical organism you meant. None of this is “metaphorical”. In this case, we are speaking of the European-American nation. What particular writings do you recommend? Unto Others from p. 87 to p. 194 and all of Darwin’s Cathedral. This still doesn’t explain why he should be deported. He should be deported to secure the health of the organism he has invaded, just as plasmodia (for instance) should be deported to secure the health of a human. 73
Posted by EC on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 03:03 | # I meant both non-native white or non-native non-white small intelligent groups. Thus, your argument is a strawman. I would rather have a small, high-IQ, Zoroastrian Iranian group let into the country than a bunch of criminal-prone idiots from the Ukraine. Jesus. How could it be a strawman when right up above in your own words, you clearly are open to allowing in NON-WHITES in your country. Is this not what I said? LOL Here, let’s look at it what I said again… What you fail to realize is that whatever threat low IQ whites pose is miniscule to what low IQ non-whites pose. No one, unless one happens to feverishly work on some extreme forward looking genetic/mate selecting process, remains “high IQ”. The chances to regress to the norm are astronomical. Hence, your high IQ non-whites become average IQ non-whites with their own interests to look after and not yours. No need to get all snarky just because you stumble over yourself. And yes, you have mostly fawned over GNXP aside from the occasional critique that they should not be “hypocritical”, which they certainly are and liars to boot though you have not acknowledged that. We’re just talking here. We’ll see how you handle your preconceived notions of race and nation when they are shaken at their foundations. Will you be open to ideas that you most certainly were never taught or will you circle the wagons and lash out…as you are beginning to do… 74
Posted by GNXP stinks on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 10:51 | # “I don’t understand why you aren’t suggesting we sever contact from Iranians as well. “ We should. Do you think I want to associate with *any* non-Europeans? 75
Posted by GNXP stinks on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 13:00 | # A cognitive elitist: Note the flat wide nose and the forward-thrusting jaw complex. By the way, there is a new post about autism up on GNXP; coincidence? Of course, James is banned from participating. Vintage GNXP: bring up a controversial topic and then ban/delete views that threaten the status of GC and Razib in America. After all, Razib *must* have his blonde girlfriends, and the ‘socially disadvantaged’ GC *must* have access to the taxpayer monies from ‘cognitively inferior’ white Americans for his academic support. 76
Posted by GNXP stinks on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 13:24 | # “Come to think of it, we’re just taking his word that he’s found the correllation.” Are you questioning James’ honesty and integrity here? What *is* your problem? 77
Posted by Guessedworker on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 13:37 | # This cleavage of improving/preserving us is perhaps the fundamental division in the debates we have here. For me, improvement is of that category of human longing to which liberalism also belongs. Inevitably, it will be antipathetic to the wellbeing of our people simply by ignoring the natural imperatives which attend them, as they attend all distinct people. Discussions between improvers and preservers, therefore, centre on the fact that the improvers cannot grant or will not understand the hand which moves us (that’s Nature’s hand we are talking about, of course). I can make only one exception to this sad rule, and that concerns Matt’s narrower, eugenic improvement - saved as it is by his white nationalism. In other words, Matt’s motive is preservational precisely because he eschews the single, universalist focus on Man from which young Yarus, despite his protestations to the contrary, cannot yet detach himself. 78
Posted by Guessedworker on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 13:41 | # Svi, it wasn’t Geoff. It was, in fact, Wintermute. 79
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 13:47 | #
Oh please. You’re telling me that because immigration will be resticted to high IQ types that automatically means the white race will be destroyed?? Just because you have groups of non-whites, especially intelligent non-whites in a white-majority country, doesn’t mean they’re going to mix into a hybrid after a certain amount of time.
I really don’t see how he’s making America unhealthy. Just because non-white intelligent people are allowed to live in a country doesn’t mean whites are doomed. If anything, America would become much healthier if IQ was recognized as legitimate, and slightly healthier economically if at least some intelligent non-whites were allowed residence.
Svyatoslav, no offence, but you’re wrong. It is a dilemma. Try going through Salford, or a bad part of Glasgow, or Fuller Slade in Milton Keynes, or at least watch as a long haired middle-class teenager does and then tell me with a straight face, if you haven’t been happy-slapped into a coma or beaten up, that what I’ve said is disingenuous. There is a big problem of underclass whites in the UK and people must accept that it’s a bigger problem than minorities (‘cept Muslims) at the moment. “Survival” of native brits is comprimised by this problem moreso that relatively small groups of troublesome non-whites. I’ve already read some of the EGI pages. It hasn’t changed my mind.
You’re right, I did overlook that, sorry. It’s quite hard defending myself against you lot. To be fair, you have also made errors in this comment page. LOL
Yep, you’re right, I was being a right fool calling you Captain Strawman. It’s kind of hard defending myself from all of you lot. I have addressed what you quoted earlier, however.
Me snarky?! I don’t remember calling you an idiot or a retard, which is what you’ve done. You also have stumbled yourself.
Yes, I *have* acknowledged that in an earlier post, Mr. Stumbly.
Nice melodrama. I share with you the wish to preserve the native genepool of Britian, but I don’t see why we have to get rid of all the non-natives to do that, some of which I am friends with. We’ll see how you handle your preconcieved notions of there being no genetic threat from chavdom when the mean IQ of native Brits is lowered substantially without any input from non-natives.
Now that you tell me I don’t. 80
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:04 | #
I don’t think he’s outright lying about his results, but I have no idea, because he hasn’t produced any direct evidence of a correllation, i.e. a graph or a table, or maybe I’ve overlooked a link on his page. Seeing as not everyone is a super computer genius master as he is, it would be hard for others to get the result he has. There should always be skepticism if we’re being all sciencey. Even if someone’s your best mate, or even girlfriend or whatever, they need to produce hard evidence. Also, what is the point of posting a news article about a Chinese brothel owner? What makes you think she’s a cognitive elitist? 81
Posted by James Bowery on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:24 | # As I said when I ceased interacting with Yarus, he’s stupid and/or ignorant but he has succeeded in wasting the time of a lot of folks. Is this “Yarus” pseudonym new to MR? 82
Posted by James Bowery on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:25 | # Oh, I should add that the first time he reiterated that I based my hypothesis on the correlation after I explained to him, forat least the second time, the difference between what I did and data dredging, I discounted the idea that he isn’t stupid. 83
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:39 | #
Nice going there, Admiral Ad Hominem. Could you produce a graph or a table of some sort to reinforce your hypothesis, perhaps? That would be nice. 84
Posted by GNXP stinks on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:13 | # “There is a big problem of underclass whites in the UK and people must accept that it’s a bigger problem than minorities (’cept Muslims) at the moment. “Survival” of native brits is comprimised by this problem moreso that relatively small groups of troublesome non-whites.” Since you are unable to spell correctly, or follow a logical argument, are we to conclude that you are one of these lower-class white youths destroying the UK? You have the option of sterilization. Improve the genepool and all that. Actually this thread is a perfect example of why I support the decision of Auster and Sailer *not* to have a comments section for their blogs. That option is more honorable than the Asian-dishonorable methodology of having a comments section which is then censored as to create the false impression of intellectual competence on the part of the ‘cognitive elitists.’ 85
Posted by Guessedworker on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:23 | # James, young Yarus appears to be perfectly legit and not one of our regular IP-hoppers. Yarus, detach economism from race. To be prosperous, the West does not need aliens. It is a false argument unless one is already a universalist - in which case it is not an argument at all but an apologia. Freedom and contentment are more healthy measures, these in each case referring solely to the indigenes. 86
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:28 | #
That’s an illogical thing to say. Just because I made minor spelling mistakes, and misread something you said earlier doesn’t mean I’m a lower-class white. I’ve seen you make some spelling mistakes in this thread, and indeed you have also misread stuff I’ve said quite a bit. This doesn’t mean you’re a chav.
87
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:42 | # Guessedworker, thanks for saying I’m legit, hehe. I guess Western countries could be prosperous with only natives being resident, except of course the US, where the natives in the Northern continent were a few thousand or so years behind us. But, I do not see the harm done if Western countries have a small amount on intelligent non-whites. I don’t want the natives in European countries to become a plurality, no way in hell. It’s just that reasonably intelligent non-natives living in the UK, in my view, wouldn’t harm the native population. Ashkenazim Jews might be problematic, but I don’t know if that’s just in the US or not. 88
Posted by Guessedworker on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:17 | # Yarus, freedom and contentment ... use these as your measures of an idealised society. Both are maximised only insomuch as EGI is allowed its own free rein. A land area occupied by more than one people does not grant that, even when one party is completely dominant and the other a slave class. We are, of course, speaking here of theoretical circumstances, ie not anything available anytime soon in the multicultural West as it is. Since, then, we have the luxury of choosing the optimum living arrangement for Western Man, and holding that in our hearts as a lodestar of sorts, at least choose the genuine optimum. Don’t start with slippage. I also commend you to read the EGI posts by JW Holliday. There you will find highly relevant passages concerning exogamy and carrying capacity. That should answer any questions you may have as to why even high-IQ aliens are not generally acceptable in the West. 89
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:45 | # GW, I’ve already skimmed through some of his material, and there’s stuff in there that I don’t agree with, such as:
I can understand the culture bit, but in no way is it scientifically sound to say that empiricism is genetic. It’s an unneccessary Romanticist thing to say, and he seems to say stuff like that quite alot. But, I’ll look over more of his articles, as you suggested. What particular ones do you recommend? 90
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:50 | # Correction: “There’s <u>an abundance</u> of stuff in there I don’t agree with…” 91
Posted by Yarus on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:58 | #
Gragh…Fine, ignore what I say. Empericism isn’t a white thing. If it were then non-whites wouldn’t have been able to make so many mathematical and technological discoveries in times of old. It’s Romanticist crap.
Oh great, so you’re saying that non-whites will NEVER be able to create prosperous societies to rival western ones? I don’t know what makes you so certain. Does China and Japan not ring any bells?
It all depends. Some groups are able to assimilate into a new country’s culture much quicker than others.
I see, so upon reading this I’ll suddenly ditch some of my Japanese friends who I’ve known for years, hmm? Nah. 92
Posted by Yarus on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 02:18 | #
You’ve missed something.
I thought you meant empericism is something that originated from white types and is only copied by non-whites. As I’ve said, for JW to say that “Even though no research has been done into it, it’s more than likely that whites have a genetic code for empiricism! Aren’t we superior? ^_^” is a pointless thing to add to his article and you don’t seem to object it.
Hmm, fair enough.
If it hasn’t yet occured to you, Russia has for most of it’s history never had any of the things you’ve described, and arguably lacks them today to an extent. Perhaps white Russians, who are for the most part genetically similar to Northern Europeans, don’t have it in them? You of all people should know this, you being a Kievan Grand Prince an’ all.
Ugh….there’s so many things wrong with this argument. Population bulk is hardly the only factor at work here. If you haven’t noticed, China still isn’t a fully developed nation, most of it’s population is rural, most of the urban population is pretty poor, culture is immensely different, Westernization still not complete, there’s too many variables. Perhaps if the the US and China shared exactly the same culture, economic prowess, government, natural environment, possibly even diet, THEN you could definately tell if there’s a creativity deficit or not. You seem to have overlooked the variables that are at work here, which is an illogical thing to do. Is that your normal M.O.?
Erm…..no, that’s not what I’ve seen at all, at least where I’m from. That’s quite a crazed thing to say.
It is in no way irrelevant. I’m not going to suddenly dislike my Japanese friends just because they might be a threat to my “EGI”. Your states rights idea is pretty good, as it would leave both parties happy. 93
Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:06 | # Yarus, Do you accept the existence of human bio-diversity? Do you accept that EGI is a common, quiet bond between racial kin? Do you accept that in aggregate one people cannot live the life of another? Do you accept that genetic and cultural differences between peoples include differing responses to and interpretations of liberal capitalism? Do you accept that each settled people have a unique moral right to their own homeland? Do you understand that the slow dispossession and deracination of Western Man by Third Worlders is a process which has no end-point? There are dozens such interesting questions. Some, many perhaps, you are not entirely in a position to answer with any authority. Nonetheless, answers you offer in abundance. You answer JW’s defence of Salterism with a quibble over the very small issue of genetically-coded empiricism. Is that really a serviceable way to undermine an entire thesis? To do that normally requires substance ... real scientific, peer-reviewed evidence. Thusfar, nobody has succeeded in that endeavour, though it has been tried as you have seen from JW’s articles. Are we to believe you, then, that Salterism is false? It appears to me that, sadly, your purpose is to argue for its own sake. That is the reason why James will not engage with you. It isn’t a profitable employment of his energies. I take you at your word as to your age, so I must grant you the time to sort out your knowledge base. But as you do so, reign in that disputatious nature a little. Painted corners and gumtrees much frustration make. 94
Posted by Yarus on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:18 | #
Yep?
Hells yeah.
Kind of.
Culturally, yah. I have no idea how genetics comes into the equation. If you mean intelligence, then yah. If you mean some other genetic difference then I’m agnostic.
Well, yeah.
I don’t think it has no end-point. I’ve never said I endorse Third Worlders settling in the UK willy nilly, infact I’m apposed to it. Heh…‘Western Man’...
No, let me explain. I don’t believe that EGI and all that is false, but I merely don’t like the way JW writes is all. I have in no way said Salterism is false, just that JW gets a bit melodramatic at times. I was using the empiricism thing to show this. I don’t believe EGI is going to be totally ruined if small amounts of intelligent “others” are allowed to remain resident, although politically active Ashkenazim Jews may be an exception.
Of course not. I started arguing because of the absurdity of Jim’s theories and his GOD hypothesis, which hasn’t a single iota of “real scientific, peer-reviewed evidence”. Infact, from what I’ve seen, it’s at times downright kook-material. I accept he’s a brilliant computer scientist, and a very good at rocketry as well, but it’s of my opinion that his biology isn’t up to scratch, and he bases alot of his theories on unscientific speculation. Granted, I do like arguing on the ‘net occasionally, but there’s usually a reason behind it, i.e. an argument that I don’t agree with.
Hah! How on Earth are you so sure? Perhaps it’s an unprofitable venture because he’s wrong? Who knows? I thought I’ve given decent enough arguments against James. He should have no problem arguing against me, but from what I’ve seen his only arguments against me have been ad hominems (“Yarus didn’t understand my explanation of a complex data anaylsis method the first time ‘round, so he’s stupid and all his arguments are worthless!!”).
I think I’ll choose a disputatious temperament anyday to a frighteningly low level of skepticism, which many people in this thread seem to have. 95
Posted by EC on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:12 | # I see Yarus is still at it. Before I address a couple of points to your comments above, I would like to direct you to this Brown website, Sepia Mutiny, who refer to Indians as Browns. So, to add to the long llist of things you are wrong about, add this to it. Perhaps if the the US and China shared exactly the same culture, economic prowess, government, natural environment, possibly even diet, THEN you could definately tell if there’s a creativity deficit or not. And you call me strawman? They do NOT, so much for your scientific rigor. They do not because genes direct culture, young Yarus. Ever think of that? Ever wonder why different races have such different cultures? Diet you say? LOL
I’m not going to suddenly dislike my Japanese friends just because they might be a threat to my “EGI”. Pity because they would do just that if you impinged on their EGI. Same goes for Browns, Blacks, other Yellows and Jews. Ever wonder why these wonderful non-white friends of yours are so “friendly”? Did it ever occur to you that we have bent over for them and allowed them in our countries to prosper where they amass some sort of fortune or at the very least a much higher standard of living and their reward is to subvert our very existence, way of life, and homeland in order to recreate their life in our places? Many also take the wealth and funnel it back to their places of origin as well. A net economic exodus, as is the case with Mexicans and the US. Try and bring up how you want to pare down immigrants in the UK to only a very small select few while the rest can be sent home and see how friendly your friends remain. Equality in treatment of guest and host is a must, however that is the furthest thing we have now where the host is bludgeoned into a form of servitude for the third worlders. Which third worlder wouldn’t act friendly in this scenario? Except blacks of course because they see racism under every rock.
Wrong. You discount the years of reading and research, not to mention real life experiences that many commenters and bloggers have as “low level skepticism”. Surely you aren’t saying you “know it all”, now are you? 96
Posted by Yarus on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:17 | #
It’s definately true that the mean intelligence of a group can affect a culture, but considering how greatly culture can change over time in a population, I would disagree that non-intelligence related genetics play a huge role. I’ve already said, there are many variables there are at play here. Let’s look at a historical example, say the Romans and the Celts. The Romans had an advanced civilization and political system, whereas at the same time the Celts up North were illiterate and had only villiages and small towns and a relatively primitive political system. It stayed that way for a long time. Maybe Celts are genetically inferior? A Roman of the time would think so, but history has proven otherwise. Your environmental blank slatism isn’t very scientific, EC.
Probably because we like each other? If I knew they were just using me I wouldn’t be friends with them. Sorry EC, but you know nothing about my relationship with my friends so you don’t really have a say in this matter. My Japanese friends’ families do live in a Japanese way at home, to an extent, but they are still very much assimilated and they feel loyal to the country they live in. They certainly aren’t subverting my existence, or what ever you want to call it.
I have done this among friends, both white and non-white, and they strongly agree with me. They have suffered abuse from underclass types, be they white or Pakistani or whatever and don’t want such types living here.
As much as I believe alot of the commenters and bloggers here are experienced, they haven’t shown much skepticism in this thread at all, especially you. 97
Posted by EC on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:29 | # Zzzzzzzzzz…. You know it all, Mr. Know-It-All. The energy expenditure/reward ratio is quite high to continue this fascinating exchange. Please give your Browns my best. 98
Posted by On Holliday on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:30 | # “but I merely don’t like the way JW writes is all” Gee, I’m crushed. Coming from an individual who writes as eloquently as Yarus, that is indeed a stinging criticism. I stand rebuked. I’ll need to learn from GC how to write in a non-melodramatic, dispassionate manner; thus: “So I say: no. You will not do this in my country. You’re free to try moving to Iceland, or enacting immigration restriction in one of the mostly white countries in Eastern Europe. But America is my home. You will not forcibly expropriate my property, nor deport me from the land of my birth. I speak English with greater fluency than 99% of the semi-literates who post on Stormfront. I have more technical expertise than ten of them put together. What right have they to tell me I am not an American? None whatsoever. In the end, land has always been the property of those willing to fight for it, and America is no different. If you ever did fight ... you would lose. I am confident that it will not come to that, however. I’ve spent quite some time lurking on the SF boards. Every post is monitored by the United States government. Every IP is tracked. White nationalism will never become a viable political movement.” 99
Posted by George Walker Shrub on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:10 | # Every post is monitored by the United States government. Every IP is tracked. Amusing. Godless does not realize that the governmental power (Jewry) allows his ethnic group to survive only so long as it is advantageous to them, and could destroy him, his ethnic group resident in the U.S, and expropriate his property with ease, and will do so once he and his descendents have served their purpose. 100
Posted by Yarus on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:20 | # I wasn’t criticizing your eloquence, it’s just that you sometimes add unneccessary stuff to your writings that seem to serve no purpose other than to make whites feel superior and better than non-whites. What’s the point? You say stuff like “empiricism is likely encoded in our DNA” and “whites are most likely to be more imaginative and creative than East Asians” etc., but it has no scientific backing, it’s biased as all hell. I know I’m going to be a worse writer than you, but that’s no reason for my criticism to be redundant. As much as I don’t like some aspects of GNXP, i.e. the fact that political and scientific discussion hasn’t yet been seperated, at least they try and maintain a degree of agnosticism with such subjects (genetic empiricism, creativity deficits etc.), whereas you don’t at all. There’s no need to quote GC, I never said he was incapable of melodrama and the like.
I never said I did, but thanks.
Well, this is the internet after all, so that is to be expected, unless someone is offering a material reward or something… I don’t own any browns, but thanks anyway. 102
Posted by Voice on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:59 | # Initially I thought Yarus was going to attempt to be intellectually honest, but now have come to realize that he fits in the category of a “posh English git”. I have to apologize to the English MR posters who may be their grandfathers type of posh English, who had a backbone(and a set of…) and followed their very patriarchal nature to protect country and family against any group that would in any way put their way of life in danger. It is quite astonishing that we even take the time to deal with little boys(whether your age is 18 or not as it is in wisdom for sure) looking for proof that we should look to save our people and way of life. Piss off now , go scope of some white women with you multicult friends, lose yourself in Dungeon and Dragons. Remember, don’t question the racial nature of your Englishness or Britishness in a public forum or you could be arrested for incitement of racial hatred. I bet your ancestors would proud that you are upholding the status quo in Orwell’s UK in 2006. 103
Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:24 | # I very much agree with that last point, Svi. Yarus is, like all of us to a greater or lesser extent, in transit through a landscape of new and unfamiliar ideas and values. He has not travelled all the way to Eureka yet, that’s all. There is a fundamental recognition among the racially consciouness of the scale and the intransigent nature of the problems faced by our people. Yarus is a trimmer on both aspects because he is not yet fully racially conscious. When he becomes such, if he does, he will have understood that kinship must out-value altruistic connectivity to non-kin - and he will be a formidable proponent of English interest. 104
Posted by Yarus on Tue, 13 Jun 2006 01:26 | # Voice, you’re a wonderful human being. Jokes aside, I have already stated that the native population of the UK should be preserved. The country shouldn’t be settled by overwhelmingly large numbers of any non-natives, be they tall blond Finns, Romans or Mongolians or whatever. I am all for preserving the native population’s culture(s). I also searingly hate the Incitement to Racial Hatred law; people can choose what they want to listen to. My family isn’t that well off either, so I’m in no way “posh”. Whether I’m a git or not is your own opinion, I guess. Well, thanks for that brilliant argument, Voice! It was just one big smear. Now that you bring up the subject of Orwell, what would your ideal government be, and how can you be so sure Orwell wouldn’t object to it? Oh, and I have no desire to play D+D. I did collect Warhammer 40k a few years ago, tho.
Ok, then perhaps Russia’s backwardness for most of it’s history compared to Western Europe was due to genetics, then?
Indeed. I’ve already listed some possible factors.
Of course not. However, maybe Little Green Men from Mars stopped the Celtic/Germanic peoples from progressing to the same level as the Romans/Persians/Greeks? Maybe Little Green Men gave China the leg up when they developed advanced sailing ship design, printing technology (and even the printing press in Korea 200 years before the Western one, although it was invented independently from Gutenberg’s), mass production techniques of cast iron/steel etc. before the West? No way and no way; all of the above was made possible by cultural means, for it’s likely that all the cultures mentioned had similar innate intelligence (I know Iran isn’t that smart nowadays, but Persia was pre-Islamic at the time). Even though there may be other genetic factors at work, intelligence is the most important one by far and next come environmental factors. I haven’t dismissed EGI, I do believe it exists and is important, but I don’t believe it should be adhered to in a fundementally religious way.
Hang on, I meant that I’m not sure if some intelligent groups are incapable of liberal capitalism. That’s the point that I was addressing.
Pretty much.
In the grand scheme of things, non-IQ related genetic traits seem to be less important that environmental factors (culture, ideas, technology, ways of thinking, economy, warfare), which are in turn less important than intelligence. At least that’s my opinion. I’m not sure if your black example is entirely sound. Perhaps if a population of black people who happened to have a mean IQ similar to that of whites existed, then we could properly test your idea. Excessive testosterone levels could be detrimental, if that’s what you mean, but I’m not sure if that’s purely a West African trait. The Steve Sailer link you gave doesn’t clash with my views. I don’t like the idea of extended families either.
Erm, that’s ok…I guess =\ To be fair, a number of the commenters have felt a bit frustrating times, although I think they’re absent at the mo’.
To an extent, kinship does form the basis of most of my friendships, now I’ve reflected on it. Most of my friends are white, after all, as are most of their friends. Quite a few of my male friends privately hate Pakistanis and blacks, for example, even though they seem to fit the dude-ish carefree stereotype of alot of middle class teenagers. However, for the time being, I’m still going to be friends with those in my social circle who aren’t descended from indigenous Brits. I will also defend the indigenous population’s interests, be it from invasions of Swedes or Libyans or Koreans or whatever, albeit not to the level you would wish. Who knows what the future holds, tho. Of course, I may have been killed by then in the Great Chav Uprising of 2018. I think I’ll take a break now, for a few days or more. It’s been both fun and tiring arguing here. Thanks for all the interesting viewpoints. 105
Posted by Nio Zilda on Tue, 13 Jun 2006 05:41 | # I’m not sure why Yarus is so obsessed with ‘chavs’. West Indians have by far the highest crime rates in Britain, don’t they? 106
Posted by George Walker Shrub on Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:33 | # Interesting analysis on joint ADL-governmental operations against white-rights organizations: http://www.stratfor.com/products/premium/read_article.php?id=267534 From what they describe, it would appear they are on the verge of eliminating the National Alliance. 107
Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:58 | # Beorge Walker Shrub, That’s a subscriber-only link to Stratfor. Can you please copy & paste the relevant passages? 108
Posted by Gorgeous George Walker Shrub on Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:16 | # A Study in the Demise of White Supremacist Groups On June 8, National Alliance leader Shaun Walker was arrested in West Virginia, and two other members of the white supremacist group—Travis Massey and Eric Egbert—were arrested in Utah. The arrests stem from a federal indictment for allegedly conspiring to intimidate minorities. The incidents mentioned in the indictment occurred in December 2002 and March 2003. In the first incident, Walker and three other National Alliance members—Massey, Egbert and an unnamed individual—allegedly threatened “individuals of minority racial and ethnic heritage” and assaulted a Mexican-American man in a bar in Salt Lake City; in the second, Massey and the unnamed individual allegedly threatened and assaulted a Native American man outside another Salt Lake City bar. Walker’s arrest on federal criminal charges is a severe blow to the National Alliance. The group has been on the decline since 2002, when its founder and longtime leader William Pierce died. If Walker is tried and convicted, it will ultimately hasten the group’s demise, as the group’s leadership could become more factionalized and disorganized. More important, Walker’s conviction on a federal charge would open the group—and Walker personally—to civil suits filed on behalf of the alleged victims. A judgment against the National Alliance in a civil suit could result in the group losing its compound in West Virginia and its two money-making corporations: Resistance Records and National Vanguard Books. Though jailing leaders can disrupt the activities of white hate, neo-Nazi and other groups, it is civil judgments awarding financial restitution that actually do the most damage to these organizations. Such suits frequently are brought by groups such as the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). The White Aryan Resistance, for example, was effectively destroyed when it was bankrupted as the result of a civil lawsuit filed on behalf of the family of an Ethiopian college student who was killed by a group of White Aryan Resistance members in 1988. The members were convicted of the crime and sent to prison; the group’s founder and leader, Thomas Metzger, was ordered to pay $12 million in a 1991 judgment. A similar judgment against the Aryan Nations stemming from an attack against two individuals led the group to lose a compound in Idaho that was used as a headquarters, training ground and meeting place. A copyright suit filed against the World Church of the Creator and its leader, Matt Hale, could have caused the group some financial damage and did cause it psychological damage. As a result of the ruling in that case, Hale conspired to have the presiding judge assassinated, a crime for which Hale was arrested and convicted in April 2004. This drove the group further underground and caused it to split and collapse. This is significant because the World Church of the Creator was seen as an “up and comer” in the pantheon of right-wing extremist groups. One problem with civil suits against white hate groups is the potential boomerang effect. As extremist groups break up, members join up with new organizations. Many members of these defunct groups have joined the National Socialist Movement, an organization of uniform-wearing neo-Nazis that were involved in provoking riots in Toledo, Ohio, in October 2005. This group has gained momentum over the past year and will be the big winner as other groups break apart. However, the National Socialist Movement will also be next in the crosshairs for the authorities and for groups such as the SPLC. When such groups break up, members may also become “lone wolves”—the real danger. Some of these lone wolves could take it upon themselves to exact revenge. This can take the form of a seemingly random attack against minorities, or threats against the groups or individuals that sponsored the lawsuit that brought about their group’s downfall. The most notorious example of this happened in 1999 after the World Church of the Creator’s Hale was denied a law license in Illinois because of his association with the white supremacist group. A member of the group named Benjamin Smith went on a three-day shooting spree in Illinois and Indiana, randomly targeting racial and ethnic minorities. He killed two people and wounded nine before committing suicide while being chased by police. However, in many cases, these follow-on plots are discovered before they can be carried out. Largely because of the homegrown right-wing extremist groups’ demographics, federal law enforcement agencies have had much more success infiltrating them and taking them down than they have with Islamist militant groups. In the post-Sept. 11 environment, with the federal government looking more closely at potential domestic terrorism, the FBI has been systematically cleaning up the remnants of white hate and neo-Nazi groups. The criminal charges open the door for civil suits, which are often more damaging. The federal indictments might close the coffin lid on right-wing extremist groups, but the civil suits drive in the final nail. 109
Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:34 | # It would be no loss. Activism in America will actually benefit from such pressure. It will be forced to professionalise and become representative of ordinary white Americans whose concerns are not being addressed by the mainstream. 110
Posted by On Holliday on Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:01 | # GW, there are two issues here. First, is it the place of the federal government - essentially supported by its white taxpayer base - to participate in attacks against white collectivist efforts? Second, agreed, that the named groups are/were useless. But who is going to pick up the slack? 111
Posted by Gorgeous George Walker Shrub on Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:13 | # The National Alliance was professional under Dr. William Pierce; as professional as it comes. World-class leader (it doesn’t get much better than Pierce), corporatized, and with a sound game plan (albeit incomplete). That’s why it was targeted for elimination. Gliebe and Walker are middle-manager talents who, under enormous pressures, fouled it up after Pierce’s sudden demise. Yet, even now it remains valuable because it holds title to numerous copyrights and a range of other assets. 112
Posted by XYZ on Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:35 | # “The National Alliance was professional under Dr. William Pierce; as professional as it comes.” I, unfortunately, have to strongly disagree with that assessment. The American “scene” was and is a joke. Of what exists today, the best (in a relative sense) ‘hard core’ outfit is Strom’s National Vanguard. What is left of the National Alliance should transfer what utility they have left to Strom and exit from the scene, which is going to happen anyway. It is not like any of this couldn’t have been foreseen after Pierce died. First Roper broke away, and then Strom. Pierce should have chosen Strom as the next leader, Gliebe’s Cleveland sucesses and Strom’s previous absence notwithstanding. But, given Pierce’s temperament, the choice was inevitable. As was the outcome. 113
Posted by AD on Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:56 | # The problem with Yarus’ defence is that he’s arguing from 30 years ago…..as if the UK only has a few non-whites(rather than entire districts majority non-white) and there’s “no harm” in allowing in a few “high IQ” types. For there to be “no harm to EGI”, from his perspective/argument, the main flow should’ve been cut off 25 years ago. It’s too late in the statistical game to have the “luxury” of any more non-white immigration, high IQ or otherwise. The damage has been done, the options available are defence(moratorium) or offense(repatriation). If not now, then when? At what percentage point should non-white imigration be stopped(or reversed)? London is almost majority non-white, time to stop yet? How about 40% white, 30%, 10%....how about South African levels? How many Kriss Donalds will it take to say “hey, the costs outweigh the benefits, and i’m not gonna piss around with stories about my hypothetical non-white friends or the joys of exotic cuisine when whites are being slaughtered in the streets”? Also, the argument that chavs aren’t a product of multiracial ideology is absurd. What sub-culture are they aping, Arthurian homeboys? 114
Posted by The poor but honest Hindoo. on Fri, 05 Sep 2008 12:00 | # The poor but honest hindu Post a comment:
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Listen to yourself.
Posted by Guessedworker on Thu, 08 Jun 2006 18:45 | #
James,
Anybody who still can’t see that gc’s a hypocritical ethnic-nepotist of the first water is blind or Indian. I don’t think even Arcane, who imagines Nazis everywhere, is fooled nowadays.
It is a badge of honour to be IP-banned from hypocrisy-laden sites such as GNXP and Samizdata. My compliments.