Other folks believe in Ethnic Nepotism.  We, though, must not!

Posted by Kubilai on May 07, 2005, 02:20 PM | #

In my career, my partners and I practice ethnic nepotism with our hiring practices.  To hell with AA and the like though we do have the occasional “diverse” employee for safe measure.  I see nothing wrong with it.  The only thing that is WRONG is the attitude of our fellow European Whites who somehow believe they are living in Gene Roddenberry’s world of Star Trek with its selfless and altruistic ideals.  Talk about stupid…

Posted by Fred Scrooby on May 07, 2005, 02:31 PM | #

You’re doing exactly the right thing, Kub.  Keep it up, and God bless you!  (But just watch out, and don’t get yourself caught by the Thought Police!)

Posted by birch barlow on May 08, 2005, 01:55 AM | #

And, of course, Asian bloggers and their fellow travellers are very fond of telling us that “ethnic nepotism is not adaptive”.

Who cares is ethnic nepotism is adaptive?  I see no reason to care if there are more copies of say, some variant of a CYP enzyme gene of mine as opposed to some other variant 100 or 1000 years down the line.  That’s really the kind of stuff we’re talking about here, besides obvious differences in coloring, nose shape, hair texture, etc.  Yes there are differences in averages in the sorts of characteristics needed to hold up civiilization, and particularly Western civilization, that whites may (on average) be the best endowed.  But I would rather see a strong and vibrant U.S.A. heavily populated by East and South Asians (as well as whites and better-off Latinos and blacks) than a feeble U.S.A. that is all white, or an America de jure divided by race as many here seem to desire.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on May 08, 2005, 02:03 AM | #

Those opinions of yours are exactly why you’re blogging at GnXp, Birch.  No surprise there.  Bloggers there are very carefully selected.

Posted by birch barlow on May 08, 2005, 02:32 AM | #

Well, I am honestly befuddled by the white separatist opinions here, as much so as I am by wacked out lefties like Lewontin, Gould, Atrios, PZ “PC” Myers, etc.  I just don’t know how people come to think like JW Holliday and others here.  More importantly, I also think white separatism makes it harder to get race realism into the mainstream, and harder to enact even feeble measures such as stopping driver’s licences for illegal aliens (if you don’t want “migrant workers” to be able to drive legally, you must be a RACIST closet Klansman, because we are a “nation of immigrants” after all).

Posted by Guessedworker on May 08, 2005, 07:25 AM | #

Birch,

Well, I am honestly befuddled by the white separatist opinions here ...

Particularism, or preference for one’s own kind, is written in our hearts and our balls, Birch.  If it isn’t written in yours I am sad for you.  Perhaps you would be wise not to challenge something you yourself claim to be incapable of understanding.

I see you slipped in that word “separatist”.  But all peoples desire a separate existence.  Look around the world.  You will not see libertarian salad bowls of happy, deracinated people.  You are clinging to a marxian lie which denies white European-Americans the desire of their own hearts.

Speaking as an Englishman who is constantly informed by English marxists, Jewish immigrant marxists and various third world immigrants that mine is a mongrel nation and therefore we must accept and celebrate diversity, I find attitudes like yours self-serving and intellectually dishonest when spoken by them.  But when spoken by you???

You state “I would rather see a strong and vibrant U.S.A. heavily populated by East and South Asians (as well as whites and better-off Latinos and blacks) than a feeble U.S.A. that is all white”.  Which feeble, politically free white country have you got in mind when you say that?  Name one.

For me EGI is a natural outcrop of ethnicity.  We should all feel it and follow it just like Dr Oz.  The Jews and South and East Asians with whom you blog serve their own EGI in a white society by arguing against white EGI - one deliciously Gouldian way of doing so being the denial of EGI in entirety.  So, knowing that, why do you act in life to the detriment of your own people’s EGI?  Why the opprobrium?  Why capitalise “RACIST” as though you are just another marxist and the word actually meant something?

My last point is a general but important one.  We are not really a minority on this blog.  But advanced liberalism, which is the general political milieu of the West, has come to such an extraordinary pass, such a contrary-headed point in its evolution, that our natural fealties, desires and opinions are attacked and delegitimised as extreme and unacceptable.  You seem to me to be swept away in all that, so that you have no ideas of your own and no strength with which to see through those you have.

I hope you and the many like you will find your way out of this someday and join us.  If you don’t you will wake up eventually and find you have no homeland and possibly, someday, no people left.

Posted by JW Holliday on May 08, 2005, 10:26 AM | #

Birch says he does not understand me, but I do certainly understand him.  More importantly, he should understand himself.  As a GNXPer, I am sure he must be familiar with the work of the great god of GNXP, the left-wing anti-racist Richard Dawkins.  Now, Dawkins did write some useful things, one of which concerns the concept of the “extended phenotype”.  See here, particularly the sentence about parasites:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Extended_Phenotype
Of course that applies to external parasites (eg, cuckoo bird) as well as internal ones.

So, here is my scenario:-

Take two people (and/or groups), X and Y.  X behaves in a manner against his own genetic interests (including maintaining that such interests are not important) and favorable to the genetic interests of Y.  In some way, direct or indirect, Y influences X to behave in the described manner.  Thus, X is the extended phenotype of Y.

Essentially, Birch (along with some others at GNXP) is the extended phenotype of Godless and Razib (and of other East and South Asians as well)

Posted by JW Holliday on May 08, 2005, 10:31 AM | #

It is funny when GNXPers state they are not supporters of constitutional patriotism, when they and their blog certainly are.  So, Birch would like to see a strong America full of Asians.  Very well.  But, then, what is America?  What is this nation that Birch wants to see “strong and vibrant”?  If the biological human make-up of the nation is not important, then what is?  What exactly is it about America that one wants to make strong?  Is it just a patch of land?  Or, perhaps a set of principles?  It is very easy to understand JW, Birchie my boy.  To me, the purpose of a nation is to be a homeland for a people, and their genetic interests.  I view America through the lens of what is best for my group, European-Americans.  If America goes against the interests of my group, why should I want it to be “strong and vibrant”?

Maybe by your logic, German Jews should have wanted the Nazi regime to be “strong and vibrant”, based upon some allegiance to the German nation and culture.  After all, Germany never had a real history of democracy, so the dictatorial aspects of Hitler should not bother them, right?  He was popular, right?  German culture was preserved and celebrated, right?  Oh - the regime was hostile to Jews.  That is indeed a good reason for Jews to oppose it.

Anyone familiar with the material at MR (and other pro-western sites) will understand the grievances pro-white, pro-western activists have against the current American establishment.  If my people are being discriminated against and displaced, what loyalty do I owe to the regime that does it?  Why should I celebrate the “strengthening” of that regime with Asiatics?

Birch, maybe first convince guys like Oz not to engage in ethnic nepotism.  His fellow Asiatics at GNXP have pursued their own interests to reinforce to you not to pursue ethnic nepotism yourself.  Let’s get the Asiatics now to do the same.  Good luck

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 01:32 PM | #

Its funny that the Asian bloggers at GNXP speak with such “patriotic” confidence. But since we are now in the realm of ideas, a question to Birch Barlow: how about a vibrant strong Africa? God knows Africa has suffered so much. How about a strong colonization programme to colonize Africa with “High IQ immigrants”?

May be over 100 years or 200, the African race itself will be wiped out. But who the hell cares? It’ll be strong and vibrant!

Now why does that sound like a suggestion from some “supremacist” wanting to wipe out the black race? Somehow its fine to make these refined arguments about smart Asians saving those weak and feeble whites from themselves but thats the only place where the argument ever goes. The same argument never applies to any other race, nationality or country.

Birch, I understand your naked fear of association with “racism”. Actually much of GNXP, outside of the technical arguments is remarkably PC about stuff. And favouring white displacement in North America has the advantage of not only promoting the interests of the Jewish and Asian bloggers at GNXP but also assuaging whites like yourself who are terrified of the opprobium certain modern pieties bring with them. Its a very soothing argument to the heart to say that “I don’t care”. You might as well say, “Hey, look I’m not racist!”. We believe you. You aren’t “racist!” and we are very proud of you.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 01:48 PM | #

To sum it up:

I will take these suggestions from GNXP types more seriously when these suggestions are also given for lots of Asian and Black nations as well (and just as often as they are given for the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Britain). Until that happens, your friends and yourself sound like a bunch of hypocrites who don’t inspire much confidence.

Posted by birch barlow on May 08, 2005, 01:50 PM | #

GW--I was using “RACIST” in an ironic way--though maybe even that bothers you?

JW--I certainly have no love for the current regime in America, with it’s bend-over-backwards multiculturalism and quasi-socialism, enforced and expanded by a so-called “conservative” president.  I also have no love for these Asians and their black and Latino counterparts.  Where I disagree is that fighting multiculturalism and pushing for Western values means ultimately pushing for an America that is de jure divided into white, black, Latino, Asian, and/or multiracial regions.  It seems perfectly possible, indeed preferable, to fight the NAACP/MALDEF/Modelminority.com types by attacking their particularism rather than erecting a white version of those deplorable groups.

Also, you have said that a “proposition nation” united by ideas and common interests is nothing more than an abstraction.  I certainly agree that the bastardized neocon version of it that considers someone coming here for a $5.50/hr job and health/education/welfare benefits a great American/Westerner is absurd.  However, I don’t see how a nation united by sharing the greatest number of genes is any less abstract than one united by sharing common ideas or interests.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 01:58 PM | #

Birch,

You say “proposition nation” is just an abstraction and a nation united by ancestry is also an absraction. So what concept of nationhood do you believe in?

Posted by Fred Scrooby on May 08, 2005, 02:05 PM | #

Birch, were Jews who opposed their own elimination under Hitler “racists” for not wanting their group to disappear?  Why are whites racists, then, for wanting theirs not to disappear?  Will you admit that forced excessive incompatible immigration gets the job done as well as gas chambers do?

Also, Phil makes a good point:  if whites can be race-replaced here, what country is next on the race-replacement list?  Don’t tell me race-replacement is something only whites have to undergo!  Surely there must be others on the list to get race-replaced!  The Chinese in China, for example?  The high-caste Hindus?  During the British Raj there was only a thin layer of white administrators sent to India.  How about opening India up to massive white immigration of a kind and volume that race-replaces Indians?  How about doing it to a province of China, and once that’s full of whites, doing the same to the other Chinese provinces one by one until the Chinese are a minority in their own country?  Would the GnXpers sign onto that?  I didn’t know one of the bloggers there was Jewish but we can certainly put Israel on the list for race-replacement too.  Would their Jewish blogger, whichever one he is, sign onto that?  I certainly assume so, since that’s what all of them over there want for whites in the U.S.

Posted by birch barlow on May 08, 2005, 02:12 PM | #

I tend to think that a “proposition nation” united by ideas is actually less abstract than one united by some unknown pieces of information (genes).  It is far more important that I can get along with someone than that they share N genes with me instead of .9N genes.

Posted by birch barlow on May 08, 2005, 02:16 PM | #

People here keep speaking as if I want whites to disappear, as opposed to not caring so much whether America is 70% white as opposed to (say) 50%.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 02:17 PM | #

Birch,

How many proposition nations exist on this planet that are not majority white (for the moment at least)?

Posted by Fred Scrooby on May 08, 2005, 02:19 PM | #

“Also, you have said that a ‘proposition nation’ united by ideas and common interests is nothing more than an abstraction. [...] I don’t see how a nation united by sharing the greatest number of genes is any less abstract than one united by sharing common ideas or interests.”

Well, that’s fine, Birch.  Can we tell GnXp’s Jewish blogger that for exactly the reason you point out here we’re going to put Israel next on the list to get forcibly race-replaced?  Let’s see what he says about that.  (Of course, reciprocal race-replacement—the “What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander” principle—will never be brought up there because GC is an anti-white race-replacement-advocating foaming-at-the-mouth hypocrite who never in a million years would permit discussion of doing to his group or to that of the Chinese fans of that site—or that of the Jewish ones, for that matter—what he advocates being done to whites.  What one has to understand about GC is he identifies personally with non-whites against whites.  He’s not a racially-disinterested neutral commentator as he likes to pretend.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 02:23 PM | #

People here keep speaking as if I want whites to disappear, as opposed to not caring so much whether America is 70% white as opposed to (say) 50%.

Well, are you saying you want it to remain at least 50 percent white ? (Leaving aside the practical difficulty of that for a second) If not, then whats wrong with 20 percent or 0.2 percent? Why 50 percent?

Posted by Kubilai on May 08, 2005, 02:26 PM | #

You’re doing exactly the right thing, Kub.  Keep it up, and God bless you!  (But just watch out, and don’t get yourself caught by the Thought Police!) - Fred

Thank you Fred and God bless you as well.  I appreciate it. 

I just don’t know how people come to think like JW Holliday and others here. - Birch

Others have done an excellent job explaining it to you Birch, however let me give it a try as well.  It is as simple as becoming aware at the inconsistencies and unfairness of the ruling classes against the interests of Whites.  It is that WE apply the same criteria used to protect and advance non-Whites, towards Whites.  I mean, what is good for the goose is definitely good for the gander, right?  If it isn’t good to destroy an entire race of Blacks, then it isn’t good for Whites either.  If it is good to help certain races into university and job positions, it is good for Whites as well.  If it is good for East and South Asians, Jews, Blacks, Arabs to have their own homeland and not allow ANY immigration of non-natives, then it is good for Whites too.  This isn’t brain surgery, Birch, it is simple common sense.  Why on Earth would we want and promote our own extinction?  What was so feeble about the US or other White nations that we “need” this heavy population of East and South Asians?  For God’s sake, we sent people to the F$&*^ING moon without their help, NOW we need them to save us??  LOL

Say Birch, you wouldn’t happen to be a university student or newly minted grad, would you?

Posted by birch barlow on May 08, 2005, 02:39 PM | #

In a country with 200 million whites I hardly see several hundred thousand high-skill immigrants coming in per year, even through 2050 or 2100, as pushing the white fraction of the population much below 50%.  Also let’s not forget there’s all of Europe, which should stay pretty white if the mass immigration of Muslims is shut down and their welfare benefits sharply cut so they can’t have 5 kids on taxpayer funds.

Posted by Kubilai on May 08, 2005, 02:42 PM | #

It is far more important that I can get along with someone than that they share N genes with me instead of .9N genes.

People here keep speaking as if I want whites to disappear, as opposed to not caring so much whether America is 70% white as opposed to (say) 50%. - Birch

Birch, you act like that .1N is insignificant, when in reality it is tremendously important.

Your second comment clearly shows you have no grasp of the severity of this topic.  First, one can look around the globe and see what a minority White population does for a country.  Secondly, Whites have no group identity or interests because they are prohibited to do so, otherwise they would clearly be “nazis” as even you imply.  Without group protection as others possess thanks to White largesse, Whites will clearly be disadvantaged in nations where they are a minority.  And I am being extremely nice when I say “disadvantaged” because in reality, it will be much worse. 

Lastly, WHY are you so adamant on reducing White populations in their native lands?  Clearly state your reasoning because you have offered none, thus far.

Posted by birch barlow on May 08, 2005, 02:43 PM | #

I am a university student, but what is the relevance of that?  It’s not as if I buy the multi-culti blame whitey, blame men, blame the middle class, blame America garbage pushed in my humanities and sociology courses.

Posted by Kubilai on May 08, 2005, 02:47 PM | #

In a country with 200 million whites I hardly see several hundred thousand high-skill immigrants coming in per year, even through 2050 or 2100, as pushing the white fraction of the population much below 50%. - Birch

This is your panacea?  WHY do we need these “high-skilled” immigrants?  Are we not capable of teaching our own White people these high-skilled jobs? 

Hell man, we have the lame excuse of Mexicans coming because they “do the jobs we don’t want to” and now you are giving me more bull about how we should let in migrants on the other end of the labor scale.  Just WHAT jobs are Whites good for, Birch?

Your arguments are infantile and NOT well thought out.

Posted by Kubilai on May 08, 2005, 02:49 PM | #

I am a university student, but what is the relevance of that?  It’s not as if I buy the multi-culti blame whitey, blame men, blame the middle class, blame America garbage pushed in my humanities and sociology courses. - Birch

LOL

Oh Birch, Birch, Birchie boy.  I had you pegged a long time ago.  You’ll realize your fallacious arguments too late, I’m afraid.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 02:51 PM | #

Here is Robert Locke on “High IQ Immigration”.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 02:54 PM | #

I tend to think that a “proposition nation” united by ideas is actually less abstract than one united by some unknown pieces of information (genes).  It is far more important that I can get along with someone than that they share N genes with me instead of .9N genes.

You didn’t answer the question. What concept of nationhood do you believe in?

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 02:57 PM | #

In a country with 200 million whites I hardly see several hundred thousand high-skill immigrants coming in per year, even through 2050 or 2100, as pushing the white fraction of the population much below 50%.

So, do you say that under no circumstances would you agree to the white percentage dropping below 50 percent? Why is that? Whats so important about 50 percent?

Also, you said that a Proposition nation makes more sense than a nation united by ancestry. If that is so, why does it matter that the white percentage goes below 50 percent or not? Why does it matter who is 50 percent or 5 percent? All people have to do is just stand under a flag and read an oath. Anyone on earth could do that.

Posted by birch barlow on May 08, 2005, 03:05 PM | #

Well, like GodlessCapitalist, I think there are economic benefits to allowing high-skill immigration.  I would like to see America have as strong an economy as possible, and I would also like to see faster technological advances.  More technology (generally) means a better quality of life.  Faster technological advances means more life-saving and health-improving drugs, new sources of energy, faster computers, better/cheaper cars, and probably a lot of other things too.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 03:05 PM | #

In a country with 200 million whites I hardly see several hundred thousand high-skill immigrants coming in per year, even through 2050 or 2100, as pushing the white fraction of the population much below 50%.

Let me also state here that this argument that these high skilled workers would number just a few thousand and not 200,000 a year is a lie stated by GNXP from the very beginning.

If you read that blog carefully there is strong approval of the immigration policies currently in operation in Australia and Canada which actually import enormous numbers of “skilled” foreigners. Australia actually lets in more immigrants per thousand natives than the US. And this policy has been celebrated at GNXP numerous times.

So this is just a bald faced lie which deflects criticism for the time being. We know where GNXP’s usual arguments actually go.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 03:08 PM | #

I would also like to see faster technological advances.

And if you could theoretically achieve that with 1 million immigrants a year, you would support that too - for faster technological improvements?

Posted by birch barlow on May 08, 2005, 03:10 PM | #

There is nothing magical about 50%--it’s just that I seriously doubt sensible levels of immigration are likely to push the white fraction of the population in the U.S. much below 50% (or really even that much below 60%, if Hispanic birth rates don’t stay sky high...which can aranged by measures such as pushing back the welfare state).

Posted by Fred Scrooby on May 08, 2005, 03:15 PM | #

“What’s Birch’s concept of nationhood?” That’s easy, Phil.  Brainwashed by his college professors, Birch has the concept of nationhood that says nationhood is fine for everyone except white Christians.  White Christians can’t have a nation because they’re so mean toward everyone else and are therefore to be punished by being forbidden to have one.  They’re beastly-mean toward non-whites by breathing while white, and beastly-mean toward Jewish whites by breathing while Christian.  So, no nation for them.  But by all means, let’s have a nation for everyone else.  That’s Birch’s concept of nationhood:  something whites aren’t allowed to have but everyone else is.

Posted by birch barlow on May 08, 2005, 03:17 PM | #

“And if you could theoretically achieve that with 1 million immigrants a year, you would support that too - for faster technological improvements?”

I would IF the side effects, such as downward wage pressures (which would likely be a problem at that level at least in the short run unless the tech economy was really booming), environmental issues (losing open spaces, straining water resources, pushing traffic through the roof) were manageable.  However, because of these issues, I would generally support a number closer to 500,000 or so, at least on average (maybe more during a good economy, less during a lousy one).

Posted by JW Holliday on May 08, 2005, 03:17 PM | #

Different people can posit varied answers to the question of what the meaning of life is, but certainly one would expect people from a blog called “Gene Expression” to understand that the replication of genetic information is a fundamental, objective ‘purpose’ (if that word can be used in this context) of life.  It is the goal that life tends to ‘strive’ for, and reproductive success is a core litmus test for fitness.

In the great game of life - defined as reproduction, genetic continuity, and genetic expansion - there are winners and losers, sometimes in the relative sense and sometimes in the absolute sense.  I see no reason for any group to decide in advance to be losers by not playing the game.  That makes no sense.  And if someone needs to read more on the importance of genetic information, one could read the chapter on life in Deutsch’s “Fabric of Reality”, and of course, the importance of genetic continuity as an interest is discussed in Salter’s book, especially chapter 1 and section 4A.

Furthermore, I note that while Birch critiques both myself and “white separatists” as regards ethnic nepotism, he neglects to say anything about Dr. Oz, or other non-European peoples, who are openly and proudly practicing such ethnic nepotism.  That’s the problem with whites, one manifestation of the White Man’s Disease.  Whites critique group interest when such benefits their own group, but overlook or accept the same when others practice it.  From the standpoint of “interests” - for both self and group - that seems to me rather bizarre and masochistic.  Surely, Birch could have said something negative about Oz before rambling about whites.  Or, is it that Asiatic ethnic nepotism is OK, but that the white response to it (or even just a proposed response) is illegitimate?

Or, maybe we white helots are not even supposed to question the actions of our high IQ Asiatic overlords at all, is that it?

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 03:18 PM | #

Birch,

You know its a shame our ancestors didnt get this brainwave in the 19th century - “Why don’t we let in 100 million intelligent Chinese and Japanese into the United States, Canada, Britain, Australia and New Zealand?”.

Its a shame because had they done that, we would have colonized Jupiter by now.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on May 08, 2005, 03:20 PM | #

“it’s just that I seriously doubt sensible levels of immigration are likely to push the white fraction of the population in the U.S. much below 50%” (—BB)

What’s going to enforce “sensible levels” in the teeth of the fanatical race-replacement lobby?

“if Hispanic birth rates don’t stay sky high...which can aranged by measures such as pushing back the welfare state).”

What’s going to push back the welfare state?

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 03:23 PM | #

because of these issues, I would generally support a number closer to 500,000

In this same thread, you said, about 50 minutes earlier:

In a country with 200 million whites I hardly see several hundred thousand high-skill immigrants coming in per year, even through 2050 or 2100, as pushing the white fraction of the population much below 50%.

Please, could you reconcile the two? This is a joke.

Posted by JW Holliday on May 08, 2005, 03:27 PM | #

Birch:” However, I don”t see how a nation united by sharing the greatest number of genes is any less abstract than one united by sharing common ideas or interests.”

Once again, I’m stunned that someone from GENE Expression would write this.  Genes are not abstractions, and genetic information is not an abstraction.  True enough, ideas (memes) have real-life consequences.  But, what do we mean by “real-life consequences?” We are talking about the effects on life, and life is ultimately about genetic replication.

I mean, please, for once, follow through your ideas to completion.  All these fuzzy ideas about “a strong America”, and “high-IQ immigration”, etc. - is for what purpose?  Isn’t it, I presume, to make America a better place to live?  Isn’t this interest in improving America, aren’t all these ideals about making America a better place for the people who live there, for Americans?  Don’t all memes have as their ultimate impact influencing human life?

That being the case, if life is fundamental, if the cause and result of these memes is life, if everything you are interested about in America will influence those people living in America - then isn’t the fundamental thing those “Americans” themselves?

That being the case, it is life, it is the people, that is concrete - the ideals are the abstractions that are, in the first case, created by people, and in the second case, influence people.

Life is fundamental.  As humans, we view, or should view, human life as fundamental.  Life is based upon the replication of genetic information.  That is fundamental.  That is ultimate.  Genes are concrete, chemical entities.  Genetic information, is, as Deutsch explains, one of “the fundamental strands of reality itself”.  Ideals are proximate.  They exist secondary to life.  Without sentient life, there would be no ideals.  If a meme caused the extinction of the group that believed it, the meme disappears as well.

And to put it in more pedestrian terms your logic, if taken to its conclusion, means that a man who is a big sports fan should reject his sports-hating, book-loving son, and replace his biological child with a stranger who likes sports as well.  Right?  Conservative parents should dump their liberal kids and adopt some conservative stranger.  Or, a liberal parent, faced with saving their own more conservative child, or saving a stranger who is more leftist, should let their own kid die.  Right?  Why not?  If genetic kinship is an “abstraction” such as ideals, what is the difference?  Parental love is an abstraction as well.  Some parents end up disliking their own children.  Do they then have no interest in their survival?

Probably, one could find whites who think that way.  But Asiatics - like Oz - are more healthy minded.  I see nothing in the article that suggests Oz mentors on the basis of “shared values.” He instead looks for “young Turks.” We should be emulating him.

Posted by JW Holiday on May 08, 2005, 03:29 PM | #

I guess then, Birch, that it is more important to get along with a stranger than with your own children, if you have any.

Tell me, would you sacrifice your own child to help Godless?  Obviously you would sacrifice your ethnic kin to do so.
Dr. Oz, on the other hand, it would seem, may disagree.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on May 08, 2005, 03:35 PM | #

Talk is cheap, Birch.  Let the GnXpers put their money where their mouths are.  What other countries are slated to undergo race-replacement after the U.S., Europe, Canada, and Oz will have been transformed from majority-white to majority non-white?  I’d like to see the list of intended beneficiaries of this magnificent gift to be bestowed.  All the blah-blah-blah about genetics is so much irrelevant clap-trap until we see whether sauce for the goose is indeed sauce for the gander or, on the contrary, it’s just stealth racial/tribal particularism posing as ... disinterested universalism (hysterical laughter).

Posted by birch barlow on May 08, 2005, 04:02 PM | #

If someone chooses to bring a child into this world, that child is their responsiblity; they have chosen to have that child.  But let’s be honest here--if you had a kid who was a real hellraiser--constantly getting into fights, getting D’s and F’s in school, doing massive amounts of drugs, getting into trouble with the law, and generally being a jerk/loser he or she would probably be out the door with little to no support and minimal contact at his 18th birthday (or at least his high school graduation), no?  Even with a well-behaved child, I would expect their parent(s) to be closer to that child if they had more in common, especially once that child became an adult and the parents were no longer directly responsible to him.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on May 08, 2005, 04:56 PM | #

Here‘s a comment I posted at Jason “Race-replacement-for-every-race-except-the-Chinese” Soon’s site last year (next-to-last reader’s comment in the comments thread).  (Jason couldn’t deal with race-replacement being questioned at his site, so I got banned—for this comment and one additional one in which I urged a whining Nigerian blogger to stop whining about imagined discrimination and just get on with it—no one in the West was holding him back.  That comment was considered outrageous at Soon’s site.  Pretty fragile site, I suppose.)

Posted by Guessedworker on May 08, 2005, 05:45 PM | #

Good link, Fred.  I wonder if young Birch realises he’s blogging with a out and out RACIST (irony off).  Is li’l Jase the kind of East and South Asian who Birch thinks will make America strong and vibrant?

C’mon Birch, start asking questions of yourself?  How did your sense of ethnic identity become so dessicated?  How would your ethny preserve itself if everyone were to think like you?  Are you right or wrong when you say your ethny doesn’t matter?

Seems to me there’s a heck a lot of questions been asked of you on this thread, but I haven’t seen too much in the way of answers.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 06:36 PM | #

I haven’t seen too much in the way of answers

Birch is like a rabbit caught in the headlights. Too much confusion in the mind. If BB is young, that is good, for there is hope. These problems cannot be rectified after a certain age.

Posted by Svigor on May 08, 2005, 06:43 PM | #

Well, in all fairness GW, it is a dogpile at this point.

I’ll just throw my bone in here.

Whites have a proven track record of creating the kinds of societies whites tend to like living within.  Non-whites don’t.

Given one man one vote, it is the height of stupidity to suggest that immigration can be limited to the cognitive elite indefinitely.  Given OMOV, it is the height of stupidity to suggest that whites and non-whites are interchangeable, that the incoming non-whites will not gradually change the culture and laws to suit them.

I’m really sort of baffled by how shallow and stupid your arguments are Birch.  It’s hard to know where to begin in explaining how wrong-headed they are.  I could almost write a book about just this thread.  Facing the task is almost like facing the task of explaining sight to a person born blind.

That isn’t a cop-out, it’s just an effort-reward analysis, and I don’t think the reward is worth the effort.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 06:44 PM | #

Fred,

When I hear GNXP types like Soon talk of the “liberal” tradition it really cracks me up. When you consider that they have the tolerance level of the Hezbollah......(chuckle)

Posted by dan dare on May 08, 2005, 06:57 PM | #

Concerning high-IQ immigration I don’t think there can be any rational objection to it provided

a) The bar is set sufficiently high - say a PhD in a technical or scientific field with x number of cited publications - and not low enough so as to facilitate the mass entry of code jockeys from Indian and Chinese degree mills;

(b)a minimum starting salary of say $ 100,000 is to be paid;

(c)The immigrant is not permitted to import any ‘family members’, and:

(d) the immigrant agrees to voluntary repatriation on the date of retirement.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 07:05 PM | #

Dan,

We are now in the realm of theories. I wish horses could fly.

In the US, there are currently more than 200,000 “skilled” immigrants getting in. Proportionately, the numbers in Australia and Canada are even higher (which is overwhelmingly approved at blogs like GNXP which advocate such policies).

I would rather have no immigration to be honest. Its a heck of a lot safer. And, if I did allow a little bit of immigration, I would keep the visas temporary and make it impossible for them to gain citizenship - sort of like the Japanese do.

Posted by bbarlow on May 08, 2005, 07:06 PM | #

I just don’t see why I should care more about some random stranger than some other random stranger just because one is white.  The idea of an ethnic brotherhood to me is mere mysticism. I mean, where’s the substance?  Perhaps some people get some psychological benefit from ethnocentrism, and that’s OK with me so long as it’s not imposed on me--I don’t want to be relegated to some obscure part of the country because I choose to associate with other whites or marry a nonwhite, any more than I want to be dispossessed by the Marxist ideology of the NAACP, MALDEF, La Raza, ModelMinority, et al.

Posted by Svigor on May 08, 2005, 07:07 PM | #

Take Muslims as an example ("normal" Americans tend to have a much easier time viewing Muslims critically).

First, we let in only the cognitive elite Muslims, patting ourselves on the back about how we’re robbing their native lands of valuable intellectual capital (all the while assuming that whatever criteria we use to qualify them means exactly the same thing in a Muslim as it does in a native, when in fact it does not).

These elite Muslims may or may not contribute as expected.  Let us assume they do.  Any gain would likely be impossible to disentangle, but never mind that.

For the purposes of argument, let us also assume that unlike a European Christian derived population, these Muslim immigrants feel warmly towards their own back in Muslimland, even the cognitively-challenged.

So, the Muslims agitate for increased immigration of Muslims, even the cognitively-challenged, and they begin using all the old arguments and methods to achieve their goals.

The EC derived population, devoid of any racial defense mechanisms, yield to this pressure and admit greater numbers of Muslims, even stupid ones.

Soon, the Muslims are a voting bloc, and guess what?  They start making our country into one more like Muslimland.  Eventually, given a lack of racial defense mechanisms in the natives, they will turn it into something less like our homeland and more like Muslimland.

All this is the inevitable fate of any population without racial defense mechanisms.  The “healthy but non-white” hypothetical you give us doesn’t paper over the fact that for many whites, a “healthy but non-white” America will no longer be “healthy,” not just in genetic terms but in every sense of the word.

Sorry for the dumb example scenario but I’m feeling a bit under the weather right now.

Posted by stari_momak on May 08, 2005, 07:09 PM | #

That’s a pretty high bar, Dan Dare. I’d be inclined to go along. But remember the line spoken in regret --We thought we were importing workers, we got people. That is, any sort of immigration takes on a life of its own, as the immigrant will seek to pursue his interests.

Why can’t he import his aged parents? How ‘bout his brother, who is perhaps not as smart, but is technically capable? He calls up his representative (even though his is not a citizen, I think the rep will take the call.) He calls up the local rag, his coworkers join him—just these few exceptions , etc etc.

As to the main theme of this thread, which seems to be an inquisition of young Birch, I say give the guy some slack. He wouldn’t be here if he wasn’t questioning. When I was in uni (undergrad), I believed the whole ‘opportunity society’ , Clarence Thomas is the greatest, We Are the World, bs too. A few years out in reality will turn young Birch to the light, I have no doubt. He is far ahead of where I was.

Posted by stari_momak on May 08, 2005, 07:11 PM | #

Wow, Svigor beat me to my point as I was typing it! Well done!

Posted by Svigor on May 08, 2005, 07:14 PM | #

I just don’t see why I should care more about some random stranger than some other random stranger just because one is white.

Because, dummy, given what we know about human nature, the white is far more likely to care about you, and to hold common values, and far less likely to view you as a tribal enemy/competitor.

Posted by Guessedworker on May 08, 2005, 07:45 PM | #

I second stari’s goodwill comments.  Birch is courageous to come here to argue for ... well, to carry on making his sole point that he has a dessicated sense of ethny.  Oh, not quite sole point.  Apparently, he has a dessicated sense of mysticism too.

Just the same, it is of real value to us all to confront such a phenomenon and seek the reasons for it.  OK, we can understand Robert Lindsay types.  Deep self-hatred and the desire to self-heal by casting one’s sins and failings upon a foil are the mechanisms which make leftists out of European people living in their own homelands.  But Birch isn’t in that category of destructive leftist.  He is a destructive rightist, more like the Samizdatista race-deniers who have swallowed the right-marxist meme of freedom through self-authorship.

This, also, is something I can just about understand.  I can find reflections of it in my memories of youth.  Fierce and foolishly proud as I was, I wouldn’t have anybody place his hands on my life and say “you cannot do this” or “you must be that”.  “Fuck you, pal” was my outraged response.  The young are like that.  But Kubilai is right.  They don’t stay young and they do, usually, grow out of it.

So is Birch just angry?  Maybe.  But he seems very insistent on not understanding ethny.  He actually says: so long as it’s not imposed on me.  So I wonder whether he might in fact be a liberty-freak - a self-authorship person who cannot abide any limitation on his freewill.

But, of course, it would be nice to know for sure.

Posted by Phil Peterson on May 08, 2005, 07:52 PM | #

He is far ahead of where I was.

Yes, ten years ago when I was 18 I didn’t have a friggin’ clue.

Posted by JW Holliday on May 08, 2005, 07:57 PM | #

I have to agree with Svigor; these childish GNXP types are really not worth wasting too much time with.  I’m confident that I’ve made my points.  Birch talking about mis-behaving children, or “Dan Dare” postulating unrealistic requirements for immigration - these are not convincing.  Birch continues talking like Godless’ puppet, about all the benefits hundreds of thousands of high-IQ immigrants will bring.  But these high-IQ immigrants will also be promoting their own interests, and good luck trying to get Dan’s immigration control measures in place.

When all these high-IQ Asiatics parlay their high-IQ and economic/professional successes into political power, it’ll be real likely, I’m sure (LOL!!!) that they’ll agree to not having family members over and to a voluntary repatriation after retirement.  Very realistic that!  I’m sure Bengali website designers want to go back to Bangladesh, after decades of living in America.  A dream come true.  We cannot even control immigration, high-IQ or otherwise, with guys like Bush and Bill Gates still pulling the strings.  What happens when Chinamen and South Asians hold significant positions of power in government and industry?  Why stop then at 50% white population?  Are 50% whites needed to mop the floors of their Asiatic overlords? 

And, why, pray tell, has none of these GNXP gentlemen have any cross words to say about Dr. Oz?  This is the case in point as to why high-IQ Asian immigration will lead to white dispossession.  Asiatics like Oz will come, practice overt ethnic nepotism while guys like Barlow ethnically self-destruct.  Thousands upon thousands of ethnocentric, nationalistic, racist, intelligent, and cohesive Asians pouring into America, filling up the top universities, filling the professions, practicing the same type of ethnic nepotism that guys like Barlow denounce with respect to whites.  How will it be stopped?  What if these high-IQers, in alliance with Jews as well as globalist white gentile elites, decide to open the floodgates to endless Asian immigration?  Maybe a Senator Chen and a President Patel, or CEO Kim will be practicing open ethnic nepotism in immigration and foreign policy, while guys like Barlow flip burgers and scrub toilets, talking about all the wonderful technology the Asiatics are bringing.

Yes, and 17th century Native Americans - if they only knew - would have been so enthusiastic about the white man’s arrival.  Right?  Drinking themselves to death on reservations.  High-IQ European immigration worked wonders for the Red Man, didn’t it?

The only evolutionarily stable strategy for a group like whites is ethno-states.

Posted by JW Holliday on May 08, 2005, 08:04 PM | #

Svigor has explained well how limited high-IQ immigration leads to further influx without end.  Letting in a bloc of people - particularly when these are high intelligent, upwardly mobile and skilled - means letting in a bloc with interests of their own and the abilities to pursue them. Then we have this:-

“The idea of an ethnic brotherhood to me is mere mysticism. I mean, where’s the substance?  Perhaps some people get some psychological benefit from ethnocentrism, and that’s OK with me so long as it’s not imposed on me”

Truly bizarre.  Genes are not “mysticism.” Read what your hero Godless has written about hapmaps and “Lewontin’s fallacy” - as long as it is all theory and not threatening his battening on white America, he says a few sensible things.  To say that ethnic brotherhood is a mysticism is like saying family is the same.

No one wants to impose anything on you - it is the opposite.  GNXPers oppose voluntary white separatism and the establishment of ethno-states.  Barlow - I do not want you in a white ethno-state.  You and Billy Clinton and Georgie Bush and all other whites who love non-whites and diversity should live in your rump America.  But others demand a Euro-American state, and once the choices become clear, I’m sure many other whites would as will - if the choices are made clear in an open, non-left controlled environment.

Don’t you impose your high-IQ Asians on me.  I want no part of Godless and Razib and their ilk.  I want to be free of them in my living space.

Posted by stari_momak on May 08, 2005, 08:30 PM | #

This, also, is something I can just about understand.  I can find reflections of it in my memories of youth.  Fierce and foolishly proud as I was, I wouldn’t have anybody place his hands on my life and say “you cannot do this” or “you must be that”. 

I think this is one of the main motivations of the libertarian open-boarders people. Their attitude is,

“I can make it on my own. I don’t care if LA is 80% Mexican. I’ll hire them, I’ll exploit them. I’ll live in my gate-guarded community, send my kid to private school. Screw the losers that have to identify with their race. Screw the white trash.”

And I just don’t know how to deal with it. There may be a few other examples out there, members of non-white non-gentile groups that are so willing to screw over their fellow whites. Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas? Paul Gottfried?  Not really. Paul Gottfried isn’t advocating Israel be turned into a demographically non-Jewish state, he just points out the hypocracy of the Jewish lobby on this issue. Clarence Thomas might push for race-neutral law, but he isn’t advocating swamping Atlanta with Hispanics to cut down on the Black demographic advantage in that city.  No, it really is only white libertarians.

Posted by Svigor on May 08, 2005, 08:33 PM | #

No one wants to impose anything on you - it is the opposite.  GNXPers oppose voluntary white separatism and the establishment of ethno-states.