English genetic heritage is not German. Not German. There is a common myth that English people are a mixture between Celts and Germans, and that they are mostly German. This myth is pervasive and opens the door to many misunderstandings. As a service to the Majorityrights’ readership, I will present just a small teaser quote from Stephen Oppenheimer’s 2006 article on this subject which exists at Prospect Magazine. Here:
You can click the link in the quote and read the full article. These facts should be of great assistance to British readers—particularly the English—because it will allow them to demonstrate that they exist as a native people to the British Isles, and are distinct from continental Europeans such as the Germans who they are most often associated with. Given that they are native people, and not a proposition nation, their claim to their land is beyond contention. Kumiko Oumae works in the defence and security sector in the UK. Her opinions here are entirely her own.
Comments:2
Posted by In situ hunter gatherers: straw man on Mon, 03 Aug 2015 14:49 | # First of all, if the article is stating that the English and other British natives derive primarily from Basques beforehand, how is it that she is saying that they evolved from “in situ hunter gatherers?” 3
Posted by n/a on Mon, 03 Aug 2015 15:18 | # Daniel. Here is what Oppenheimer was claiming (as bolded in the posted excerpt): “The genetic evidence shows that three quarters of our ancestors came to this corner of Europe as hunter-gatherers, between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, after the melting of the ice caps but before the land broke away from the mainland and divided into islands.” The notion was that Basques represented a Paleolithic western European survival. They don’t. Nor do the British have any special connection to Basques. The British (and to a lesser degree, Basques) are descended from late Neolithic / Bronze Age Indo-European invaders. Your ostensible Asian friend resident in Britain is explaining to the British that they should rest their claims to their own land on the discredited notion that they descend overhwelmingly from the original post-Ice Age inhabitants. 4
Posted by DanielS on Mon, 03 Aug 2015 15:39 | #
Now, what am I not understanding?.
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Posted by Kumiko Oumae on Mon, 03 Aug 2015 15:43 | #
So what do you think happened to the original people? Also, where’s your proof? 6
Posted by Still not German on balance on Mon, 03 Aug 2015 18:05 | # GW recommended this more recent information from Oxford. “Genetic study reveals 30% of white British DNA has German ancestry”
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Posted by n/a on Mon, 03 Aug 2015 18:14 | # This is what Oppenheimer was claiming (and what Kumiko Oumae quoted and bolded): “The genetic evidence shows that three quarters of our ancestors came to this corner of Europe as hunter-gatherers, between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, after the melting of the ice caps but before the land broke away from the mainland and divided into islands.” If you have trouble comprehending this, I can’t help you. The claim is that 3/4 of the ancestry of the British has been in western Europe since the Paleolithic, weathered the last glacial maximum in a refugium in Franco-Cantabria, and was in place in Britain no later than the Mesolithic flooding of Doggerland. There is no ambiguity here. This is what is being claimed, and no part of this claim is correct.
“So what do you think happened to the original people?” They were largely displaced by Neolithic farmers, who in turn were largely displaced by Indo-Europeans (with the Indo-Europeans who reached western Europe being a mix of eastern European Steppe herders, central European Neolithic farmers, and central and northern European hunter-gatherers). “Also, where’s your proof?” The ancient DNA evidence, which has been pointing in this direction for years and which currently leaves no room whatsoever for the sort of story told by Oppenheimer. http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/07/population-genomics-of-early-bronze-age.html
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Posted by DanielS on Mon, 03 Aug 2015 19:01 | # You’ve still got it wrong. You were attributing the term “in situ” to Kumiko’s and Oppenheimer’s claim, as if they were saying that the English did not have evolutionary origins outside of the island. That is a straw man.
No need for your help, I’ll refer to the science, which is not quite so determined as you are to see English and other native British at one with Germans. While the more recent Oxford results as recommended by GW concludes that there is more German genetics than the Oppenheimer study, it shows 30%, not an overlap. In fact, it shows a higher percentage of French - 40%. Whether the hunter-gathers who came into Britain count as “Pre-Germanic” in a way that you would call “German” or the 20-30 percent German admixture cited in the later Oxford study is more strictly a result of “post Germanic” admixture”, as in, intermixing with what even non-Germanophiles (i.e., not you) would now call Germans, it is apparent that even the later study does not consider British to be German on balance. The larger percentage of French - 40 percent - could argue for the Basque incubation angle.
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Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 03 Aug 2015 19:57 | # Daniel, that Guardian article conflicts to some extent with what the prof’s in the POBI project have said, reported in the Telegraph thus:
The first POBI paper is this one: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n2/full/ejhg2011127a.html 10
Posted by n/a on Mon, 03 Aug 2015 20:44 | # Daniel, You are deeply confused. The Oppenheimer claim was that “Celts” were not genetically Celtic/Indo-European, but largely Paleolithic western European remnants. The ancient DNA evidence rules this possibility out completely. The question of Germanic vs. Celtic ancestry today is about the degree to which the British descend from Iron Age Britons vs. later Germanic incomers (with these two groups being fairly genetically similar, both deriving ancestry from the same major sources, including the Steppe). The methods of the study recommended by GW, which uses only modern DNA, are fairly useless for answering this question. But, largely coincidentally, the best current estimate informed by ancient DNA puts the Germanic ancestral proportion in the modern English at around 30% (which is probably a reasonable estimate for today, but at least somewhat lower than the proportion of Germanic ancestry that would have been found in the English 200, 500, or 1000 years ago).
The Wellcome trust people were pushing to minimize Germanic ancestry in Britain and attempting to hang on to the anti-migrationist narrative to the maximum extent possible. We now have the first autosomal ancient DNA results from Britain, and it’s clear significant Germanic ancestry is present in both England (something like 30% in present-day English, even without attempting to filter recent Irish, Scottish, Welsh, or French admixture) and Scotland (around 20%). What’s also clear is that Iron Age Britons were not Paleolithic or even Neolithic survivors, but shared a great deal of ancestry with later Germanic invaders. re: the notion that “The findings also showed that there is not a single ‘Celtic’ genetic group. In fact the Celtic parts of the UK (Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and Cornwall) are among the most different from each other genetically.” It’s clear these differences reflect much more recent patterns of isolation / inbreeding than the Wellcome trust people preferred to imagine. 11
Posted by DanielS on Tue, 04 Aug 2015 00:50 | # N/A: Now you are saying the same thing that I am saying while charging that I am “deeply confused.” On the contrary, I hold out that there is murkiness and debate about when to call the hunter gatherers “German” and you are calling that “confusion.” If you want to stretch how things count as “German” far enough, then I could be called half German. Nevertheless, you point to the same extent of Germanness in the British population as concluded by the Oxford study - 20 to 30 percent.
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Posted by DanielS on Tue, 04 Aug 2015 03:42 | # The primary reason why I would emphasize that the English and other native British are not one and the same as Germans would be in order to assert their unique evolution in the context of Britain and therefore particular warrant to claim it as their homeland. I am sure that Kumiko’s motivation is of the same good will. The longstanding and commonly held misconception that the English are quite nearly the same as Germans undermines that warrant by lending itself to the propositional argument that England is a nation of immigrants and therefore the English do not have a unique claim to their land.
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Posted by n/a on Tue, 04 Aug 2015 10:34 | # DanielS, Science and reality do not care about your anti-Germanism. The genetic data says what it says; Oppenheimer incorrectly claimed what he claimed; you’ve promoted the misinformation you’ve promoted. You can rage at Germany as much as you want, but you don’t get to make up facts to suit your politics. “The longstanding and commonly held misconception that the English are quite nearly the same as Germans undermines that warrant by lending itself to the propositional argument that England is a nation of immigrants and therefore the English do not have a unique claim to their land.” On a global scale, the English are “quite nearly the same as Germans” (just as they’re “quite nearly the same” as most other NW Europeans). A substantial fraction of English ancestry does in fact represent “recent” Germanic immigration (which has comparatively little to do with the modern republic of Germany and more to do with the Low Countries and Denmark; modern Germany likely has not insubstantial amounts of Celtic ancestry). The English do not need any justification to control their own territory. They don’t require moral absolution from an Italo-Pole or Japanese. Attempting to found a justification on denying Germanic ancestry among the English means you are arguing, e.g., the Welsh have a greater claim to England than the English, or that to acknowledge Germanic settlement (and later continental European immigration into Britain) somehow justifies the replacement of the English in England with subcontinentals, Africans, or Japanese. “as concluded by the Oxford study - 20 to 30 percent.” The POBI study did not in fact argue for “20 to 30 percent” Germanic ancestry in the English. They argued for 10-50% depending on what one subjectively deemed “likely”, with the authors themselves pushing the low end of that uselessly broad estimate as most likely. 14
Posted by DanielS on Tue, 04 Aug 2015 11:32 | #
Get it through your skull that I am NOT anti-German. And don’t make that charge again because it is Not true. Where the first post may have been mistaken there were the comments and that is one of the key things that the comments are for - for correcting errors. GW pointed to a newer study, I quickly referred to it, and readily acknowledged that English were more German than the Oppenheimer study claimed. I also explained my benign reason for de-emphasizing the impact of German immigration on English genetics.
He was not wrong in saying that English are not the same thing as Germans. That was the fundamental point of the post. It is not about being anti-German (that is in your head and you will not be able to prove that I am anti-German because I simply am not anti-German), it is about being pro-the-fact that English have natavist warrant - which is mitigated by your philo-Germancisim.
I do not rage against Germany.
One could say that I am half German depending upon how badly they wanted to stretch the definition. But the Oxford unit of analysis resulted in the conclusion that British are 20 -30 percent German (in my preliminary understanding of what they said, anyway).
The study says 30% on the whole, that is substantial - granted; and obviously some individuals will be of an even higher percentage.
Yes, they do. They need all the help they can get against political correctness. And what you propose as help (in Gemanizing them) is probably more counter productive than you realize.
I help all Europeans, whether they “require it of me” or not. Kumiko’s will is good as well.
I don’t deny their German ancestry, I said the evidence shows that they are not the same as Germans on balance.
Maybe I would have argued that in about 600 a.d. but there comes a practical statute of limitations.
I am not saying that at all, but the politically correct could and have taken angles like that - you know how they are. That is why I have sought to de-emphasize “the waves of immigration” theme.
The facts are the facts, and I am not against the English, the Germans or their nationalisms however their make-ups sort out. Even if the English were 100% German, of course I would still defend them. To question that is ridiculous. I simply defend all Europeans and their discreet kinds. However, I believe that the English are more helped (argumentatively) in their claim to their land by emphasizing their unique make-up in relation to that land. 15
Posted by Sunic re: the guilt trips on Germans on Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:59 | # Good point, Tom, thank you for bringing that to our attention. I might add, however, that this phenomenon of guilt being laid on Germans, seemingly in perpetuity, is all the more reason to disambiguate European identities so that they don’t get wrapped up in guilt trips and are more able to help those who are.
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Posted by Jimmy on Mon, 21 Sep 2015 19:18 | # I rather wish people would stop using the decade old Oppenheimer work as if it were the most up to date evidence. The Peoples of the British Isles Study referenced in other comments is the most accurate as of 2015. 17
Posted by British Celts have more Steppe than English on Mon, 30 May 2016 03:18 | #
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Posted by Vaughn on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:45 | #
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Posted by n/a on Mon, 03 Aug 2015 12:14 | #
You’re promoting misinformation from a decade ago that was outdated when it was originally published. Ancient DNA leaves no doubt the British predominantly descend from post-Neolithic, Indo-European settlers (both pre-Celtic/Celtic and Germanic), not in situ hunter-gatherers.