Book review of “Breeding between the Lines” by Alon Ziv

This is a book review of “Breeding between the lines: Why interracial people are healthier and more attractive,” by Alon Ziv, 184 pp., Barricade Books, 2006, ISBN: 1569803064. My preliminary impression that the book most likely doesn’t have decent data in it is confirmed.

The book is written for a lay readership, and with the main text occupying about 160 pages, it can be read within a few hours.

Sloppy work: errors and omissions

Alon Ziv appears to have been working on the main idea of the book for a couple of years, but his book is full of sloppiness and naïve arguments, which is curious given the apparent time he has spent perusing the literature and also that he appears to have an adequate background in the biological sciences. I will provide some illustrative examples.

Ziv provides a primer on evolution that includes statements such as:

  • Asexual people are like slow Cheetahs – they die out.
  • We have evolved to avoid incest; incestuous individuals had inferior offspring and died out.

Well, asexual people die out every generation, but nothing seems to prevent some from being born every generation. For instance, in a national probability British sample of over 18,000 people, roughly 1% of people assessed reported that they were asexual, i.e., had no sexual interest in either men or women[1].

Similarly, whereas most people abhor incest, let alone indulge in it, some people continue to harbor incestuous fantasies and engage in incestuous sex[2-4].

There are numerous examples of evolutionary maladaptive characteristics that persist in small numbers in the population, but Ziv ignores this.

Ziv argues that our bodies are designed to have bilateral symmetry, i.e., we are designed to be perfectly symmetrical. This is incorrect. There is both a random and a non-random component to bilateral asymmetry, and it is the random component that is not part of biological design. The magnitude and direction (left or right side greater) of the random component fluctuates between individuals and hence this component is designated as fluctuating asymmetry. Throughout the book, whenever Ziv cites the literature on symmetry and especially when he extols the virtue of greater bilateral symmetry as in corresponding to better health and greater attractiveness, he is actually referring to the literature on fluctuating asymmetry, and the correct statement is that a lower level of fluctuating asymmetry, rather than greater symmetry, is correlated with somewhat better health and greater attractiveness. For instance, fluctuating asymmetry rather than directional asymmetry is a correlate of attractiveness of faces[5].

Ziv claims that heterozygosity for sickle cell anemia makes the carrier resistant to malaria, but this is not true; what happens is that the severity of malarial infection is reduced in these individuals, which increases the probability of survival should an infection occur.

Ziv acknowledges that races exist, but then cites pathetic sources to support this assertion: the approval of the drug BiDil for blacks by the FDA and a comment on Cavalli-Sforza’s book by Steve Sailer! No serious scientist, aware of the nature of race denial, would cite such poor sources. One needs to cite molecular[6-8] and skeletal evidence[9, 10] in conjunction with standard phylogeographic criteria for race assignment in order to make the case for races among humans. Ziv even says that “since race is really a continuum, there is no ideal way to define or document it.” Well, there is clinal variation with respect to individual characteristics, even a group of neutral DNA markers, and a race denial argument specifically denies racial reality because of human clinal variation[11], but race is characterized by a cluster of variables, and the existence of racial clusters has been shown in spite of clinal variation of DNA markers[6].

Ziv reports that in spite of changing fashions, the optimal waist-to-hip ratio of 0.7 in women, according to the research of D. Singh, has not changed; it has remained in the 0.68-0.72 range for Miss Americas and Playboy centerfolds. Well, waist-to-hip ratio in Miss Americas and Playboy centerfolds has increased from the mid- to late-20th century[12]; these women have become more masculine. During the early years of Playboy, waist-to-hip ratios were less than 0.7, on average. Additionally, there is nothing universal about the 0.7 figure: men in some black[13] and Native American[14, 15] populations prefer women with higher front-on waist-to-hip ratios than white men.

Ziv claims that more lopsided individuals (less symmetrical) are more likely to respond aggressively when provoked, but it is not difficult to come up with some papers where more symmetrical people turned out to be more physically aggressive[16, 17]. The latter is merely one example of Ziv omitting the literature that does not support his case.

Ziv is so sold onto the notion of hybrid vigor that he tries to see some in even ill-fated interspecies crosses. For instance, Ziv writes that a mule (horse mother, donkey father) may display some hybrid vigor because it has more stamina and more load-carrying capacity than horses! Hybrid vigor is inferred when the offspring are overall better than their parents, but mules are sterile. Ziv also cites the example of attempts to breed sheep and goats, which are typically unsuccessful, but he describes an example of a success that may have displayed some hybrid vigor as it grew faster than regular sheep or goat offspring, and was so oversexed that it frequently attempted to mount both sheep and goats. The poor animal had to be castrated to reign in his amorous pursuits, but faster growth and the oversexed nature could easily be a manifestation of abnormal development rather than hybrid vigor.

Ziv mentions inbreeding depression and hybrid vigor but fails to mention outbreeding depression. For the uninitiated, depression here refers to the offspring being overall worse than the parents and vigor refers to the offspring being overall better than the parents. There are plenty of examples of race mixing leading to outbreeding depression in various species[18-31].

Several claims in the book are not cited. For instance, Ziv reports a study where underweight newborn babies were more likely to be homozygous (less genetically diverse), but does not cite the reference. Given the small size of the book, it would not have hurt Ziv to add twenty additional pages of references.

Ziv reports that studies show that whites are the least likely to accept intermarriage, which is far from true. Jews, Muslims, Hindus and many other groups are easily much less accepting of intermarriage than whites are. Ben Tillman has previously brought to my attention that the oft-quoted 50% outmarriage rate for American Jews is an exaggeration, and it has been pointed out that even if this figure were taken at face value, it indicates a notable resistance to outmarriage among Jews given their small numbers in the U.S.; see this comment for details. Additionally, when Jews outmarry, most of the time it is with whites rather than with blacks or East Asians. Israel does not allow marriage between Jews and non-Jews, just as Muslims are forbidden to marry non-Muslims. On a related note, Ziv cites anti-miscegenation laws in some U.S. states decades ago, but fails to mention, let alone condemn Israel’s existing laws prohibiting marriage between Jews and non-Jews. In multiracial societies with a significant white presence, whites tend to disproportionately occupy the upper classes, and whereas the appreciation of the physical appearance of a number of populations is mostly limited to within the respective populations, white looks are appreciated by a substantial number of people in most populations. In other words, being white is disproportionately associated with higher status. Therefore, one observes that among non-white groups that generally oppose intermarriage, when they accept intermarriage, it is usually if the spouse is white or a higher status race, but they display marked animosity if the spouse is an other-race non-white of lower racial status. On the other hand, when whites intermarry, they almost always marry someone coming from a lower-status race. Non-blacks generally perceive blacks to be the lowest status race in terms of both looks and socioeconomic status, i.e., the willingness of a large number of blacks to outmarry should not be surprising, and it is obvious that one cannot argue for a naturally high willingness to outmarry among blacks given that there are not a whole lot of non-black races of lower socioeconomic and looks status than blacks. When black women object to black men marrying non-blacks, it is has less to do with objection to outmarriage per se than with the fact that so many black men are in prison or jobless/criminal that their already-low partner prospects are reduced by outmarrying black men. In short, Ziv is grossly mistaken about whites being the least likely to accept intermarriage.

Other problems with Ziv’s book should be seen in light of his main thesis.

Main thesis

Ziv’s main thesis is simple. He argues that more symmetrical people are more attractive, healthier and more heterozygous (more genetically diverse). He then points out that since race mixing increases heterozygosity, it leads to more attractive and healthier people. Let us examine this argument.

Hybrid vigor

Ziv addresses an example of hybrid vigor involving mixing some races of corn, and notes that “the disadvantage of hybridization is that you have to re-create the hybrid seed every generation.” Why doesn’t Ziv elaborate on this? Here is why. Let there be a gene that exists in two versions, A and a; each individual has two copies of this gene. Therefore, an individual could be AA, aa or Aa. Let the beneficial genotype be Aa. If one crosses AA with aa, all first generation hybrids will be Aa. If the first generation hybrids breed among themselves at random, the ratio AA:Aa:aa = 1:2:1, i.e., the desired genotype is present among only half the second generation hybrids. It is for this reason that corn farmers would maintain the original parental stocks and cross them to obtain hybrid vigor, but not allow the hybrids to reproduce among themselves. Obviously, among humans this is not applicable. The example considered here is a single-gene case, but if hybrid vigor is applicable to interracial breeding among humans with respect to multiple genes, then it should be clear that it will be drastically reduced among second and subsequent generation hybrids.

Ziv offers the following examples of hybrid vigor among humans.

  • He cites the tale of mutineers on the HMS Bounty (1789) settling on Pitcairn Island and mating with the local women. The half British-half Tahitian children, according to Ziv, grew up to be 2.5 inches taller than the British and the Tahitians. It is difficult to determine the reliability of this report.
  • Ziv reports a study, where Khasi girls in northeast India (basically East Asian types) were shorter than girls born to Khasi women that had mated with immigrant Muslim men (less Asiatic)[32], as an example of hybrid vigor, but this study did not assess the height of the parents and reported that the neighboring Muslims were a taller people. Therefore, how can one be sure that this is an example of hybrid vigor? If Khasi women breed with taller men, they are bound to produce taller children.
  • Ziv cites an UCLA study by Jay Phelan that showed mixed-race individuals to be more symmetrical (less fluctuating asymmetry) than individuals that were classified into only one of the following groups: white, East Asian, black, Native American or Hispanic (total sample size was 99). This find is reportedly highly significant; the probability that it is a chance find being less than 0.007%. The 25 least symmetrical individuals were uniracial whereas 7 of the 8 most symmetrical individuals were multiracial/mixed race. The participants also apparently had their pictures taken and evaluated for physical attractiveness, and the mixed-race individuals were rated as better looking. Curiously, this study does not appear to have been published, though it was featured in a UCLA report dating to November 04, 2002. Ziv’s citation mentions personal communication. Four years is more than enough time for research to be published. Has this study not been published because of its poor quality? Jay Phelan is co-author of the book “Mean Genes,” and he also wrote the forward to Ziv’s book. Phelan harbors the same idea as Ziv as far as the supposed benefits of race mixing go.

Ziv provides supportive evidence by citing examples of hybrid vigor resulting from crossing inbred strains of animals such as mice, and also cites studies from Swiss[33] and Polish[34] villages where children born of parents from different villages were taller, heavier and larger-chested compared to children born of parents from the same village, though the Swiss study actually compared the Swiss sample with their relatives that had outmarried in California.

The Swiss and polish studies are not about hybrid vigor, but Ziv extrapolates from these studies that the outcome of race mixing will be even better, assuming that the higher the heterozygosity, the better it is, apparently because more diverse genes mean more diverse gene products, which should cover an individual over a broader range of the environment. The latter reasoning appears sound, but then why is outbreeding depression observed in a number of cases? Has Ziv never heard of co-adapted gene complexes, which are disrupted by hybridization? Has Ziv never heard of the concept of genetic architecture in cardiovascular disease, whereby it is not always an allele (one of several versions of a gene) per se that is associated with disease, but the allele in a given environmental and genetic background[35-37]? For instance, a haplotype that slightly increases the odds of a heart attack among American whites is found in smaller numbers among American blacks, who have gotten it from whites, but it confers a 3-fold larger risk in black Americans[38]. Similarly, an allele that confers protection against diabetes among whites does no such thing among south Asians[39].

The paper on the Khasi, which Ziv has presumably read given that he cited it, mentions an Israeli study that attempted to infer the effect of intermarriage, between Jewish groups that had immigrated to Israel from different parts of the world, on the longitudinal growth of children. Five mixed groups were analyzed: two of these were similar to a parental group, one showed some evidence for enhanced growth, and two groups showed some detrimental effects of mixing[40]. I suspect that the null and detrimental finds in this study prompted Ziv to not cite it.

It should be noted that rats and mice are commonly used lab animals, and it is necessary that the differences among the experimental and control groups be attributed to the experimental protocol rather than genetic variation between the groups. Therefore, rats/mice used in a typical experiment come from a highly inbred line, and it should not be surprising that crossing two highly inbred and closely related races results in reduced overall fluctuating asymmetry, but human races, especially those existing in large numbers, are nowhere as inbred as lab rats/mice are. In a study were wild mice were made to inbreed, the overall fluctuating asymmetry of the inbred mice was not greater than that of the outbred group, even though these two groups had different fitness under seminatural conditions[41], but Ziv has not mentioned this study at all. This study is merely one of several that have shown fluctuating asymmetry to be a poor indicator of developmental stability.

Some studies have shown little to no relationship between fluctuating asymmetry and heterozygoisty[42-44], whereas some have even shown fluctuating asymmetry to increase beyond a certain level of heterozygosity[45, 46], i.e., outbreeding depression. In a meta-analysis of 118 datasets published in 41 studies[47], the effect size correlation between fluctuating asymmetry and heterozygoisty was r = -0.09 (SE=0.03), a low effect size correlation, but the interesting data is in the following figure, namely a non-significant trend toward a weak positive effect size correlation in endotherms (animals that maintain a constant internal body temperature), i.e., a non-significant trend for greater heterozygosity in endotherms to correspond to somewhat less symmetrical individuals. To interpret effect size correlation (ES): small ES (less than 0.15), medium/moderate ES (0.15 < ES < 0.33), large ES (greater than 0.33).

Fluctuating asymmetry and heterozygosity in ectotherms and endotherms.

In this meta-analysis, heterozygoisty accounted for one percent of the variation in developmental stability assessed via how symmetrical the individuals were, and even for ectotherms the variance accounted for was only 2% (r=?0.23 ± 0.09)[47]. If Ziv did proper research, he could not possibly have missed this meta-analysis, but he apparently does not cite this because he wants to convey that more heterozygosity equals better symmetry, which translates to more attractiveness and better health, all of which mean that miscegenation for the purposes of increasing heterozygoisty can only be positive with respect to physical and mental development.

Mating preferences

Ziv notes that evolution should shape people to breed in ways that are the most beneficial, yet laments that people generally tend to breed within their races, which is apparently not the best strategy as far as the benefits of heterozygoisty go: more attractive and healthier people. One of the reasons for people mostly seeking partners within their race is that people seek partners in accordance with an internal blueprint, but the good news for Ziv is that this internal blue print can be altered with sufficient exposure to people of other races. He cites the example of snow geese: the white ones breed with whites and the blue ones breed with other blue geese. However, when white geese are raised by blue geese, they prefer blue geese and blue geese raised by white geese prefer white geese. Snow geese of any variety show no preference for white or blue geese if they are exposed to both since birth. Therefore, Ziv extrapolates that humans exposed to multiple races since birth, which will be a reality with mass immigration of multiple races into the West, will not show a specific preference for their own race. This is another non sequitur. More complex human brains are not as susceptible to imprinting as bid brains are. In multiracial societies, non-whites tend to have a preference for facial features closer to that of the white average, but it is uncommon for whites to prefer non-white facial features.

Health

Ziv offers no direct evidence for improved health among mixed-race individuals, and ignores evidence for an across-the-board increase in health problems among mixed-race individuals in a large, representative sample of U.S. adolescents[48]. I have previously addressed this study by J. Richard Udry; the most likely reason for the worsened health of the mixed-race individuals is increased odds of the disruption of the autonomic nervous system, resulting from race mixing.

A study involving undergraduate students at San Francisco State University and the University of Hawaii at Hilo revealed that mixed-race individuals (basically white-Asian mixes) had worse health than whites or Asians[49]; read the paper.

A newer study that assessed substance use and violent behaviors among 2,082 students in Seattle public middle schools has reported mixed-race individuals being worse on these counts, after controlling for differences in socioeconomic status[50]; read the paper. This study also assessed ethnic identity and perceived discrimination to evaluate the extent to which they were related to the problem behaviors. However, a positive ethnic identity was protective on some counts only, and was associated with an increased likelihood of the participants having ever threatened to beat someone up. Perceived discrimination was associated with increased likelihood of problem behaviors on some counts only, but it cannot be assumed that discriminatory experiences were responsible for the problem behaviors since problematic behaviors on the part of individuals would invite discrimination.

Clinical samples have shown higher rates of mental and behavioral problems among mixed-race individuals[51, 52]. There have been few studies showing mixed-race individuals to be comparable to single-race individuals: a study from Hawaii reported no differences with respect to personality variables[53] and another study reported no differences with respect to quality of parent and adolescent relationship[54]. A few years before Udry[48] published the health data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Add Health), Cooney and Radina[55] published some of this data, and reported multiracial individuals to be worse than uniracial individuals on less than half the school performance, behavioral and psychological dimensions assessed, but a more thorough analysis by Udry shows multiracial individuals to be worse on most measures, including health. Except for the Seattle middle schools study[50], which was likely published after Ziv submitted his final manuscript for publication, Ziv couldn’t possibly have failed to come across the others showing worse health among mixed-race individuals, but he pretends as if these studies don’t exist.

India is a cesspool of race mixing, but East Indians have some of the highest if not the highest prevalence of cardiovascular disease, the metabolic syndrome, diabetes, insulin resistance, hyperinsulinemia, central obesity, dyslipidemias such as lower high-density lipoprotein or increased low density lipoprotein or higher triglyceride levels, increased thrombotic tendency as in increased plasminogen activator inhibitor-1 and decreased tissue plasminogen activator levels, and low birth weights[56-63], in addition to a weak musculo-skeletal build[64-67]. It is remarkable how often I have seen slenderly built south Asian males with a tendency to pack on excess body fat, especially in the abdominal region. The prevalence of cardiovascular disease among mixed-race groups such as south Asians, blacks and Hispanics in the U.S. is 2- to 3-fold higher compared to that among whites[68]. Whereas a number of the papers cited within this paragraph have been published in 2006, they are documenting data that have been well-known for years. Why has Ziv not cited such data?

Athleticism/Sporting ability

Ziv cites a study about more heterozygous oysters being better able to utilize oxygen under stress, and then notes that the implications for human athletics are staggering! Talk about non sequiturs! In a human study, overall body symmetry was unrelated to lung capacity and maximal oxygen utilization[69], i.e., the more symmetrical individuals, which Ziv would describe as more heterozygous, were not better off with respect to the physiological capacities addressed. Another study reported that elite athletes were not more symmetrical than sub-elite athletes[70]. Now, there are studies showing skilled athletes being more symmetrical than non-athletes (see review in Tomkinson et al.[70]), but the relationship is weak, and by not citing negative finds, Ziv is trying to convey that the relationship is so strong that interracial mating to increase heterozygosity is highly recommended.

The only example of a mixed race great athlete that Ziv cites is Tiger Woods, but if I recall correctly, then Tiger Woods had severe myopia, which had to be surgically corrected. If my recollection is correct, then without modern technology, if Tiger Woods had to live as a hunter-gatherer, he would quickly become prey, and he would also be a pretty useless fighter.

In the 1970s, there were several American blacks playing the PGA tour, but in spite of an increase in the popularity of golf and the greater participation of American blacks, currently, Tiger Woods is the only part-black person playing the PGA tour; see more.

There have been some great mixed-race athletes, e.g., Jim Thorpe and Daley Thompson, but the Decathlon is mostly dominated by whites, just as most Olympic sports are. In addressing race, Ziv addresses whether some races are better at some things than others, and says that this is an issue that he doesn’t want to focus on, but he points the interested reader to Jon Entine’s book, “Taboo: Why black athletes dominate sports and why we are afraid to talk about it.” This book alleges the racial athletic superiority of blacks, but Entine is as clueless as Steve Sailer on this topic. Blacks only dominate a few sports. West African blacks do not dominate sports such as weightlifting, powerlifting, martial arts, strong man competitions or freestyle fighting, where their alleged superior speed and strength should give them an advantage. Presently, all four heavyweight boxing titles are held by whites. Castefootball.us also features plenty of evidence about anti-white discrimination in American team sports such as football and basketball, showing that the heavy black overrepresentation in these sports is not entirely merit-based. All-white teams from Europe have been learning the game of basketball, and in recent years have defeated all-black teams from the U.S. on several occasions. Things are bound to get more interesting.

When it comes to thousands of years of race mixing between multiple races, it would be hard to beat India, yet East Indians are undoubtedly among the worst if not the worst athletes in the world.

Attractiveness

In a meta-analysis of correlates of facial beauty by Gillian Rhodes[71], the effect size correlations (ES) were: average facial features (0.52 ± 0.41; 95% CI = 0.42-0.61; weighted ES = 0.54), symmetry (0.25 ± 0.34; 95% CI = 0.16-0.33; weighted ES = 0.23) and femininity (0.64 ± 0.39; 95% CI = 0.51-0.74; weighted ES = 0.61). The data are reported as effect size correlation (ES) ± standard deviation; the interval that one would be 95% confident the actual ES lies in the general population; ES weighted by the number of faces examined.

Ziv’s argument that mixed-race individuals are more attractive is based on the assumption that greater heterozygosity equals more symmetry, which equals greater attractiveness, but there are at least two much more powerful correlates of facial beauty that Ziv ignores.

The only study that Ziv cites in favor of mixed-race individuals being more symmetrical is Jay Phelan’s study, which remains unpublished four years after its completion. We have already seen that the relationship between heterozygoisty and symmetry (thereby developmental stability) is very weak.

What about average facial features? As I mentioned previously, Ziv should read about craniofacial morphology in mixed-race individuals, white-Native American mixes to be more precise, and note that canonical variates analysis revealed a canonical root, explaining 36% of the variance, that made the mestizos deviate from shape variables in between whites and Native Americans[72].  52% of the 52 shape variables deviated from the mathematical average shape of the parent races, and here is the money shot[72]:

Finally, it is interesting that the distances that could not be assigned to a particular developmental pattern appeared to introduce ‘‘noise’’ and blur the effects of cranial integration.

The developmental patterns talked about above are mathematical averaging based upon the expectation from quantitative genetics, i.e., additive genetic variation, and morphological integration of different parts of the skull, whereby different parts of the skull effectively behave like a single unit, i.e., a change in one part corresponds to changes in other associated parts.  Note the term “interesting;” this term is an euphemism for some loss of morphological integration in the skull resulting from race mixing, i.e., some solid evidence that yes indeed, races exist among humans, and also that humans races—at least the two considered and by extrapolating from genetic distances and skull shape comparisons, any combination of races—are sufficiently distant so as to result in disruptions of co-adapted gene complexes and subsequent increased odds of anomalous outcomes in mixed offspring, which is confirmed by the health data addressed above.

Morphological integration is an important concept. Whereas one may not appreciate the facial features of another race, one will be able to pick out the better looking among another race, and these better looking people will have some kind of harmony between various parts of their face, but this harmony is more likely to be lost as a result of race mixing compared to same-race breeding. For instance, I previously commented on the malformed appearance of the deranged model Heidi Klum’s mulatto baby.

Deranged white model Heidi Klum with Negro Seal.

Deranged Heidi Klum with malformed mulatto baby; Henry Guenther Ademola Dashtu Samuel.

Deranged Heidi Klum with malformed mulatto baby; Henry Guenther Ademola Dashtu Samuel.

Some would point out that neonates are not exactly cute, but Henry Guenther Ademola Dashtu Samuel, the son of Heidi Klum and Seal, clearly looks like something is wrong with him. The malformed mulatto neonate has grown into a retarded-looking malformed toddler; contrast his features with the beauty of the white child Heidi Klum had previously. I have seen black babies that are a lot better looking.

Deranged Heidi Klum's children with Negro Seal.

Deranged Heidi Klum's children with Negro Seal.

Actual shape variables are important, too. From the perspective of whites, non-white admixture can only diminish the attractiveness of the descendents of whites: make noses broader, make the middle portion of the face flatter (absorption of East Asians, Native Americans, Eskimo-Siberians, khoi-San people, some central African populations), make faces broader (absorption of East Asians, most black African populations, Native Americans, Eskimo-Siberians), make jaws more protruding (especially if blacks, Melanesians and Australian aborigines are involved), make faces larger (absorption of most non-white populations), decrease height (absorption of many non-white populations, especially for northern Europeans), make limbs smaller relative to height (absorption of East Asians, Eskimo-Siberians, Native Americans), increase the frequency of hooked noses (absorption of Middle Eastern populations such as Jews), weaken musculo-skeletal build (absorption of non-whites in general except West Africans and Polynesians), etc.

In addition, non-whites possess more primitive facial features, and some of them disproportionately persist when they mate with whites. For instance, a study from Hawaii reported the persistence of the broad face/massive cheekbones of East Asians among Asian-white hybrids[73]. In addition, flared nostrils, broader noses and more protruding jaws also tend to persist.

What about femininity? No citations are needed for the less feminine physiques of East Asian and physically similar women. Black women, in spite of their larger breasts and more protrusive buttocks, are unable to look as feminine as white women as a result of their greater muscularity, higher front-on waist-to-hip ratios and facial features. White women look more feminine, and I would refer the reader to a previous, currently active, thread on Nordic beauty, where I have put up numerous comparisons; I still have to respond to several comments there, and my replies will feature more comparisons, but posting this review first is more important. Rhodes’ meta-analysis makes it clear that femininity is a much more powerful correlate of beauty in women compared to symmetry, yet Ziv ignores femininity.

I expected to see Ziv cite Gillian Rhodes’ study about the greater rated attractiveness and perceived health of Asian-white hybrids[74], but Ziv hasn’t cited it, and it may have come out too late for Ziv to cite it. I have previously critiqued this study. In short, the whites in this study were unattractive, and the assumption of the authors that race mixing will average the facial features of the parents is not true[72].

Intelligence

Ziv cites a study from Hawaii where white-Japanese hybrid children outperformed white or Japanese children on 13 of 15 cognitive tests (e.g., 0.30 S.D. on a version of the Raven’s progressive matrices and 0.22 S.D. on the PMA Vocabulary Test), in spite of no significant socioeconomic differences between the groups[75]. The confound here is assortative mating for IQ, i.e., it cannot be assumed that the whites and Japanese that bred together came from a random sample of their respective racial groups. Udry studied a large, random population of U.S. adolescents, but as the following table from his paper shows[48], the GPA (grade point average) and verbal IQ of the mixed-race individuals were in between those of the individuals belonging to their parental racial groups, i.e., no hybrid vigor was observed.

National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Add Health) data on GPA and verbal IQ of mixed race and single race individuals.

One possible example of hybrid vigor with respect to IQ, from the perspective of black Africans, suggested by Arthur Jensen, is that American blacks have an IQ of 85, 15 points or 1 S.D. higher than that of their black African counterparts, even though white admixture among them averages 10-20%. However, if we assume that the black African average IQ would be a few points higher if malnutrition/undernutrition were eliminated, then given that there is a positive correlation between health and IQ, it is reasonable to suppose that Africans bound for slavery in the U.S. were among the healthier ones, and given the harsh conditions of transport, healthier still individuals made it to the U.S. Therefore, the IQ potential of the arrivals could be around 80, and white admixture may only have raised IQ by 5 points or so instead of 15 points, which would not necessitate positing hybrid vigor from the perspective of black Africans, but the validity of this proposal is unclear, and in any case, at present, the 85 IQ of American blacks is not proof of hybrid vigor from the perspective of black Africans.

Ziv cites a paper by Mingroni[76], which proposes heterosis as possibly partially accounting for the Lynn-Flynn effect, i.e., the secular worldwide rise in IQ scores documented in the 20th century. Mingroni’s argument is reasonable. Throughout the period of this secular trend, the heritability of IQ has remained very high, which is not easy to account for if one assumes that environmental factors are involved, and Mingroni cites papers that have critiqued the implausibility of a model proposed by Dickens and Flynn that has argued for a large effect of the environment on IQ. However, the heterosis proposed by Mingroni postulates increased mixing of people from neighboring villages, which is not hybridization (mixing of different breeds), and it does not follow, as Ziv assumes, that the greater the outbreeding, the better it will be. In addition, data from Spain show that the bulk of the Lynn-Flynn effect over a 30-year period was accounted for by gains mostly in the lower half of the bell curve, with very little change in the 99th percentile and spectacular gains in the first percentile[77]; see the gain in raw scores. Therefore, improved nutrition is certainly accounting for a good deal of the Lynn-Flynn effect. Mingroni also cites secular increases in high-heritability factors such as height, head circumference, myopia, autism, asthma and possibly ADHD. If greater outbreeding, though still mostly within racial groups, is partly responsible for the Lynn-Flynn effect and also increases in abnormalities such as myopia and asthma, then general heterosis is not implicated.

The three highest IQ groups are: U.S./U.K. Ashkenazim diaspora (IQ = 110[78, 79]), northeast Asians (IQ = 105) and northern Europeans (IQ = 100). Northeast Asians and northern Europeans have very little other-race admixture. Jews are more heterogeneous, but the most plausible explanation for the Ashkenazim IQ advantage is that under selection pressures for higher IQ, a high level of inbreeding among them accumulated several deleterious alleles that have the side effect of increasing IQ[80]. Therefore, the brightest groups certainly didn’t get that way by large-scale outbreeding. In addition, notwithstanding the northeast Asian IQ advantage over northern Europeans, especially with respect to math ability, whites are heavily overrepresented, in spite of their smaller numbers, among Nobel Prize winners, Field Medalists, annual international ACM software coding college competitions and the most brilliant inventors/innovators. Therefore average IQ is only part of the story, and there is no reason to believe that a white-northeast Asian hybrid population will produce as many intellectually outstanding people per capita as present-day northern Europeans do.

Ziv hilariously writes, “Once true interracial marriage becomes commonplace, I think we will see an even bigger boost in the physical and mental development of future generations.” Really? If the U.S./U.K. Ashkenazim diaspora, northeast Asians and northern Europeans were to mass-absorb the likes of Bushmen (IQ = 54), Australian aborigines (IQ = 62), black Africans in general (IQ = 67) or south Asians (IQ = 82) (see Lynn[81]), would one expect a boost in mental development from the perspective of the high IQ groups?

Another useful consideration is as follows. Assume that there are no deleterious effects of race mixing. From a strictly IQ perspective, if a white man with an IQ of 100 had to choose between a white woman and a Bangladeshi woman, both with an IQ of 130, which would be the better choice? If additive genetics accounted for all the variation in IQ between individuals, one would expect the offspring of the union in consideration to have an IQ around 115, but about 40% of the IQ variation between individuals is accounted for by additive genetics, i.e., the white man can expect an IQ boost that is 40% of 15 points, i.e., 6 points. Therefore, the offspring will have a range of IQ centering around 106. Now, given white and Bangladeshi average IQs of 100 and low 80s, respectively, a 130-IQ Bangladeshi is much more of an outlier for her race than a 130-IQ white is. In other words, the contribution of additive genetics from the Bangladeshi woman would result in a probable IQ of the hybrid offspring leaning toward the lower range of the distribution centering around 106 compared to the white woman. As noted above, deleterious alleles are implicated in the Ashkenazim IQ advantage[80], and it has been documented that people with very high IQs tend to have an above average incidence of myopia and atopic disorders (related to autonomic nervous system disruption) such as asthma and allergies[82]. Therefore, the odds that abnormal genetics/developmental events are implicated in the 130-IQ of the Bangladeshi woman are greater. In other words, the better choice is clearly the white woman. Hence, even if one assumes no harm resulting from race mixing, from a strictly IQ perspective, a white person is better off breeding with a white than a member of the dark races with the same IQ as a prospective white partner. If deleterious alleles are mostly responsible for the Ashkenazim IQ advantage, then it is not worth it for whites to breed with the Ashkenazim. Additionally, northeast Asians are know to have lower verbal IQs than whites, and from an IQ perspective, no racial benefits from absorbing them are apparent given that notwithstanding their math advantage, when it comes to manifesting math prowess at the highest levels (e.g., work deserving of the Field Medal), northeast Asians, in spite of their much greater numbers, are far behind whites.

Conclusions

Ziv makes a very weak case, and has undoubtedly omitted inconvenient data. Giving the process of manuscript submission to final publication about an year’s time, Ziv should easily have come across the citations in this review that were published/put online prior to mid-2005. The evidence that he has ignored makes the opposite case. None of the heavily mixed populations --mestizos/mulattos in south America, Middle Eastern/North African people, south Asians, southeast Asians or central Asians -- are known for great health, vigor, attractiveness or high intelligence. I will speculate on Ziv’s motives below, but the implications of his work should be briefly addressed. From the perspectives of kinship and ethnic genetic interests (EGI), both of which Ziv ignores, Ziv’s ideas are horrible; see comments by “On Holliday” here and a fuller discussion of EGI here. In the biological sciences, there is consensus that living organisms be preserved at the level of kinds, i.e. races and higher order levels of taxonomy, unless one is looking at a virus/microorganism that is deadly for humans. Only if conservation efforts are threatened by inbreeding depression will there be a recommendation to mix races or species (in plants) to preserve broad taxonomical groups, and Ziv’s message will normally be treated with contempt in a non-human context. The concept of ethnic genetic interests basically argues that one’s race is worth preserving because it is one’s own, not because there is any special value to it. However, it is also worthwhile to consider the value of things to determine what is and what isn’t worthy of preservation, and white physical appearance and the ability of northern Europeans to produce the highest number of intellectually outstanding people per capita in the absence of having accumulated deleterious alleles, like the Ashkenazim have, is of sufficient value to be at least preserved if not enhanced, and speaking of enhancement, this will come about by evolution within whites; absorbing non-whites will result in devolution. Ziv’s recommendations will be especially disastrous for whites from an aesthetics and intelligence standpoint if many white people are persuaded by his arguments.

What has motivated Alon Ziv?

Attempting to critique an argument by questioning the motives of the author is bad practice, and is specifically known as deconstruction, but I have provided plenty of criticism, and do not intend this section to be a form of criticism. Rather, given the destructive nature of Ziv’s thesis, it is of some interest to question what could have prompted a man with an apparently adequate background in the biological sciences, and one who appears to have spent years reading relevant studies, to present very selective evidence in favor of his arguments and ignore a large body of evidence making the opposite case.

Ziv tells us that his book is not an instruction manual, i.e., he is not telling us to pick a spouse based on racial criteria. He also notes that he doesn’t need to instruct people to seek interracial unions because they are inevitable. He tells the reader to “get ready for a mixed race explosion.” He writes that “interracial marriage is the future, not because it should be, but simply because it is.” And, as to why it is going to be this way, it is because of continued immigration of people of various races into the U.S. as well as other Western nations, and people’s altered mating preferences in accordance with the snow geese example.

Well then, why write a book extolling the virtues of race mixing if it is going to happen on a large scale no matter what Ziv or other people say? The answer is surely not that Ziv merely decided to document what is going to happen in the future, as should be obvious from the tone of the book and Ziv’s very selective citations. The answer is easy to figure out. Ziv laments that although Gary, Indiana (U.S.A.) has 430,000 whites and 120,000 blacks, blacks and whites are highly segregated in this city; he even calls this depressing! It appears that race mixing in the U.S. is not occurring on a scale that would please Ziv, and he has decided to help accelerate it. Ziv writes, “For the modern world, it would be far better to seek out the most genetically distinct mate possible.” He tells us that “the higher one’s heterozygosity is, the better it is,” and then tells us that the combination that would yield the highest heterozygosity would be the combination of a black African with a non-African, a Bantu-Eskimo mating yielding the highest heterozygosity of all interracial matings, according to the research of Cavalli-Sforza. Ziv is quick to add that he is not advocating a race of Bantu-Eskimo supermen, but greater heterozygoisty has its benefits.

One factor that could have motivated Ziv to write this book is that he genuinely subscribes to his thesis and is so enthusiastic about the virtues of race mixing that he has skipped evidence to the contrary, believing that the weight of the evidence in the long run will eventually vindicate him. Another possibility is that Ziv is motivated by malice, a feeling that I cannot shake off.

It would be interesting to learn about the racial background(s) of the women that Ziv has dated and who he ultimately has children with; if she turns out to be non-Jewish and non-white, I can see myself giving Ziv the benefit of the doubt and believe that his book reflects his genuine conviction about the benefits of race mixing, but if this woman is Jewish or white, then my suspicion that Ziv is motivated by malice would be strengthened. Ziv lives in Los Angeles and should have no problems finding a willing black, Asian or Hispanic woman. However, if I had to bet, I would wager that Ziv would prefer a Nordic white for a breeding partner. Ziv doesn’t tell us about the kind of women he likes, but he describes his first love, a classmate, Leslie, in seventh grade. The only thing he tells us about her physical appearance is that she had honey blonde hair, and his description makes it obvious that he was enamored by her blondeness. Of course, if Ziv mated with Leslie, his offspring would not have honey blond hair anymore than if she mated with any non-white, but Ziv does not address this kind of loss resulting from race mixing.

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Posted by J Richards on Saturday, October 14, 2006 at 12:06 AM in AnthropologyBooksEthnicity and Ethnic Genetic InterestsGenetics & Human Bio-DiversityIQ and HeredityPsychologyRace realismThat Question Again
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Comments:

1

Posted by J Richards on October 14, 2006, 01:21 AM | #

Request

Please avoid anti-Semitic comments since I want Alon Ziv to respond.

By the way, here is the last passage from Ziv’s book:

Human variation is real, and it’s foolish to ignore it or sweep it under the rug.  It’s not something to be ashamed of or to avoid for fear of conflict.  Clearly there are differences between us, but instead of making us incompatible they make us more compatible.  Our diversity is a gift, and to keep ourselves separated and compartmentalized would be to waste that gift.

2

Posted by James Bowery on October 14, 2006, 01:57 AM | #

It is no more inevitable that preservation of ancient lineages will occur than it is inevitable that universal anti-racist supremacy will continue to violate the most fundamental of all human rights:

Freedom of association.

It is easy to see why freedom of association is the most fundamental of all human rights:

All other conceptions of human rights can be realized by the simple expedient of those subscribing to those conceptions forming societies that enforce them on others of like mind, excluding others.

Essentially, Ziv is an apologist for the current supremacist religious belief system pervading the west and some of the east.

3

Posted by Alon Ziv on October 14, 2006, 05:19 AM | #

Hello J Richards,

I received an anonymous email (possibly from you) letting me know that this review was here. 

I appreciate you cautioning your friends against anti-Semitic comments, though the fact that such a warning is necessary speaks volumes about this forum.

I also appreciate you reading Breeding Between the Lines.  Though I disagree with almost every point in your review, it’s clear that you did read the book.  Since you are a member of a website that advocates the preservation of a single race I’m not surprised that you don’t agree with my thesis.  I hope you read the book with an open mind.  I wonder if I could have written anything that would convince you.  Is there any amount of evidence that would have changed your mind? 

Your review was long, (and yet you forgot to mention how readable and interesting the book is) but I will address a few things.  Your points seem to fall into a few categories and I’ll give an example of each:

1. Nitpicking.  You said a lot of things that while technically true don’t really affect my argument. 

Example:  I refer to the advantages of highly symmetrical individuals and you point out that the literature on this topic is that of “fluctuating asymmetry.”  You are completely correct, but so what?  As you mentioned, my book is for lay readership.  If I wrote that some people have “a lower level of fluctuating asymmetry” the meaning would be the same except that my book would be boring and harder to understand.

2. Misrepresentation.  Your research and writing make it clear that you are a smart guy who’s interested in facts, but in several places you blatantly distort what I wrote.

Example:  The discussion on mules.  I use the mule as a *counter* example for hybrid vigor.  I do point out that mules have great stamina, but the only reason I mention them is to show that their sterility is a dealbreaker.  That’s a fundamental flaw so they clearly don’t have hybrid vigor.  Of course, this is because horses and donkeys are two different species with a different number of chromosomes.  Since the different human races are members of the same species they don’t have this genetic incompatibility.

3. Glossing over.  You gloss over several studies that have inconvenient results for your argument.  You don’t like the Gillian Rhodes study because they used computer generated faces to measure attractiveness.  I agree that’s a flaw.  Which is why I cited the UCLA study which used real multiracial and single-race participants and found that the multiracial group was significantly more symmetrical and more attractive.  You dismiss this study because it hasn’t been published yet.  I’m eager for it to be published as well.  You may want to contact Dr. Phelan and encourage him to hurry up!  However, I’ve read the study and it’s well-designed and executed.

I’m familiar with the J. Richard Udry study, but don’t find it convincing.  Is it meaningful that mixed-race adolescents are more likely to wake up tired?  Plus, I find it funny that this study lists “ever had sex” in the category of health problems.  In Breeding Between the Lines I draw the opposite conclusion!  More symmetrical people (and thus interracial people) lose their virginity at a younger age because of their increased attractiveness.  I see that as a sign of good health.  And it may explain why they are waking up tired.

In your review of the Udry study you wrote “all values in Table 2 that are clearly greater than 1.00 but not statistically significant can be considered as genuinely reflecting increased likelihood of health/behavior problems among mixed-race adolescents.” For generations the scientific community has promoted the standard of statistical significance, but you seem so willing to overlook it when it helps your argument.

Also, many of the behaviors studied by Udry are heavily influenced by social factors which are extremely difficult to control for (e.g. smoking).  This is why I focus on more biological factors in my book.  I know of no better measure for overall genetic quality than symmetry.  There is a large body of work showing the power of symmetry to predict health, attractiveness, fertility, and athleticism. The greater genetic diversity of interracial people gives them greater symmetry and all the good stuff that goes along with it.

Finally you question my motivation for writing the book which is a little odd.  Especially since I’ve been quite clear about this in the book and in interviews.  I’ll reiterate.  I wrote Breeding Between the Lines because (in no particular order):

1.  The thesis is true.
2.  The thesis is interesting.  And a lot of the scientific evidence is interesting.
3.  We are on the cusp of a mixed-race explosion yet we are still afraid to talk about race in a real way.  I hope to encourage dialog on this topic.

Thanks again for reading the book.  I hope others on this site will also read it and make up their own minds.

Alon Ziv

4

Posted by JJR Apologist on October 14, 2006, 05:58 AM | #

Since you are a member of a website that advocates the preservation of a single race I’m not surprised[bolding added] that you don’t agree with my thesis.

Why is Ziv *not* surprised? Because he understands miscegenation weakens/destroys existing ethnic groups and races through EGI decrease. Didn’t read any of that in the remainder of his response, so chalk the omission to duplicity.

5

Posted by Guessedworker on October 14, 2006, 06:27 AM | #

Alon Ziv: We are on the cusp of a mixed-race explosion

Who is the “we” here, Alon.  Are your people resident, say, in Israel about to explode into sexual relations with Falashas or, indeed, Bantus?  No?  Well, are you agitating for the repeal of anti-miscegenation laws in Israel so all those good things you write about can get established in Jewish populations?  No?  Then, how on earth can you possibly be acting in good faith towards us?

You must know that your efforts to “talk about race in a real way” look just a tad like malice, as JR rather diplomatically puts it.  And, indeed, an effort to impell Europeans a little further towards racial extinction would not be a nice trick to play, would it?

So I think you should do us the honour of clarifying your position on this issue.  Should Caucasian Jews in Israel and elsewhere, as a matter of principle, pursue greater “vigour” by going the Bantu route?  Even if that “vigour” gravely damaged mean Jewish IQ, destroyed the whole basis of Jewishness as an inherited, not cultural, phenomenon and impoverished the Jewish people to black African levels?

A nice direct answer, please.


JJR Apologist: good spot.  I missed that.

6

Posted by Furius on October 14, 2006, 07:38 AM | #

Considering that Israel is the only western nation that still has laws prohibiting race-mixing, one would have thought that Ziv would have devoted quite a bit of space to that in his book. I mean in the US and Europe, there are no legal barriers to race-mixing any more. But in Israel, there are LAWS against it.

So if Ziv never broaches the subject, it appears he is another member of his tribe advancing the interests of his tribe against whites. And that should not come as a surprise to anyone. Ziv is a small fry. The Jewish owned MTV and much of the US media (mostly Jewish owned) promote that stuff constantly, and have been doing for a very long time.

Ziv is therefore a boring character - a stereotypical Jewish nationalist (with some hatred for whites) masquaraeding as a a universalist humanitarian.

7

Posted by Steve Edwards on October 14, 2006, 09:49 AM | #

Good point, GW, and there can be no dissembling on Alon Ziv’s part. Either he answers your question directly in a single comment, or he simply doesn’t believe his own thesis, and we will naturally draw our own conclusions as to his motivations. So it’s either one or the other.

One comment, maybe one or two paragraphs max should do it, Alon. That’ll be enough. It’s not like you’ll have to make any uncomfortable admissions to us, because we’ll all understand immediately.

8

Posted by Andy on October 14, 2006, 09:59 AM | #

I’m familiar with the J. Richard Udry study, but don’t find it convincing.  Is it meaningful that mixed-race adolescents are more likely to wake up tired?  Plus, I find it funny that this study lists “ever had sex” in the category of health problems.  In Breeding Between the Lines I draw the opposite conclusion!  More symmetrical people (and thus interracial people) lose their virginity at a younger age because of their increased attractiveness.  I see that as a sign of good health.  And it may explain why they are waking up tired.

  This is laughable. Blacks tend to lose their virginity earlier than whites and asians. Is this because they are more attractive? Or could it possibly be because of a higher sex drive and earlier onset of puberty? If this is emblematic of the sort of “logic” you display in your book, I feel sorry for anyone who spent 10 bucks to purchase your masterwork. 


I also appreciate you reading Breeding Between the Lines.  Though I disagree with almost every point in your review, it’s clear that you did read the book.  Since you are a member of a website that advocates the preservation of a single race I’m not surprised that you don’t agree with my thesis.  I hope you read the book with an open mind.  I wonder if I could have written anything that would convince you.  Is there any amount of evidence that would have changed your mind?

  I hope you approached this book review with an open mind. As you are a member of a race that has long argued against the legitimacy of white genetic preservation, it is not surprising in the least that you wrote a book with the thesis of “Breeding Between the Lines”. I am also awaiting your reply to Guessedworker’s inquiry. Will your book tour take you to Tel Aviv? It would be a shame if it didn’t.  I do believe you have stumbled onto a novel solution to Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They can interbreed their problems away! 

(and yet you forgot to mention how readable and interesting the book is)

  LOL.  Perhaps it’s not as interesting as you think it is. 
 

I hope others on this site will also read it and make up their own minds.

  You are certainly not raising my opinion of your intellect with your responses to J Richard’s review.  You have yet to even address the most significant criticism of your book: The argument by On Holliday (linked to by J Richards in the main entry), and echoed by Steve Sailer there is no additional hybrid vigor to be gained by marrying interracially.

9

Posted by Guessedworker on October 14, 2006, 12:40 PM | #

Well I hope I haven’t put Alon off too much with that little question, because I’ve been looking at Svi’s original thread where a whole host of unaddressed issues abound ... unaddressed by Alon that is.  I’m going to spend a bit of time bringing those up again.  But for now, here’s a couple of questions to both Alon and JR.

Does Alon’s book mention EGI?  If so, is any effort made to do it justice?

10

Posted by Rnl on October 14, 2006, 02:08 PM | #

[Alon Ziv] cites the tale of mutineers on the HMS Bounty (1789) settling on Pitcairn Island and mating with the local women. The half British-half Tahitian children, according to Ziv, grew up to be 2.5 inches taller than the British and the Tahitians. It is difficult to determine the reliability of this report.

I doubt anyone would call the _modern_ Pitcairn Islanders an advertisement for miscegenation, and their culture is now severely dysfunctional, marked by rampant child abuse, among other social problems. But when the descendants of the mutineers were discovered by the British in 1814, their good looks and deportment were apparently impressive, so Alon Ziv is right, from his perspective, to cite Pitcairn Island as evidence for his thesis. The following is from Sir John Barrow’s _Eventful History of the Mutiny and Piratical Seizure of H.M.S. Bounty_ (1831):

****

Presently they observed a few natives coming down a steep descent with their canoes on their shoulders; and in a few minutes perceived one of those little vessels darting through a heavy surf, and paddling off towards the ships; but their astonishment was extreme when, on coming alongside, they were hailed in the English language with ‘Won’t you heave us a rope now?’

The first young man that sprang, with extraordinary alacrity, up the side, and stood before them on the deck, said, in reply to the question, ‘Who are you?’—that his name was Thursday October Christian, son of the late Fletcher Christian, by an Otaheitan mother; that he was the first born on the island, and that he was so called because he was brought into the world on a Thursday in October. Singularly strange as all this was to Sir Thomas Staines and Captain Pipon, this youth soon satisfied them that he was no other than the person he represented himself to be, and that he was fully acquainted with the whole history of the _Bounty_; and, in short, that the island before them was the retreat of the mutineers of that ship. Young Christian was, at this time, about twenty-four years of age, a fine tall youth, full six feet high, with dark, almost black, hair, and a countenance open and extremely interesting. As he wore no clothes except a piece of cloth round his loins, and a straw hat, ornamented with black cocks’-feathers, his fine figure and well-shaped muscular limbs were displayed to great advantage, and attracted general admiration. His body was much tanned by exposure to the weather, and his countenance had a brownish cast, unmixed however with that tinge of red so common among the natives of the Pacific islands.

‘Added to a great share of good humour, we were glad to trace,’ says Captain Pipon, ‘in his benevolent countenance, all the features of an honest English face.’ He told them he was married to a woman much older than himself, one of those that accompanied his father from Otaheite [i.e. Tahiti]. The ingenuous manner in which he answered all questions put to him, and his whole deportment, created a lively interest among the officers of the ship, who, while they admired, could not but regard him with feelings of tenderness and compassion; his manner, too, of speaking English was exceedingly pleasing, and correct both in grammar and pronunciation. His companion was a fine handsome youth of seventeen or eighteen years of age, of the name of George Young, son of Young the midshipman.

If the astonishment of the two captains was great on making, as they thought, this first and extraordinary discovery of a people who had been so long forgotten, and in hearing the offspring of these offenders speaking their language correctly, their surprise and interest were still more highly excited when, on Sir Thomas Staines taking the two youths below, and setting before them something to eat, they both rose up, and one of them, placing his hands together in a posture of devotion, pronounced, distinctly and with emphasis, in a pleasing tone of voice, the words, ‘For what we are going to receive the Lord make us truly thankful.’

The youths were themselves greatly surprised at the sight of so many novel objects—the size of the ship—of the guns, and everything around them. Observing a cow, they were at first somewhat alarmed, and expressed a doubt whether it was a huge goat or a horned hog, these being the only two species of quadrupeds they had ever seen. A little dog amused them much. ‘Oh! what a pretty little thing it is!’ exclaimed Young, ‘I know it is a dog, for I have heard of such an animal.’

These young men informed the two captains of many singular events that had taken place among the first settlers, but referred them for further particulars to an old man on shore, whose name, they said, was John Adams, the only surviving Englishman that came away in the _Bounty_, at which time he was called Alexander Smith.

[...]

Adams ... pretended that he had no great share in the mutiny: said that he was sick in bed when it broke out, and was afterwards compelled to take a musket in his hand; and expressed his readiness to go in one of the ships to England, and seemed rather desirous to do so. On this being made known to the members of the little society, a scene of considerable distress was witnessed; his daughter, a fine young woman, threw her arms about his neck, entreating him not to think of leaving them and all his little children to perish. All the women burst into tears, and the young men stood motionless and absorbed in grief; but on their being assured that he should, on no account, be molested, ‘it is impossible,’ says Captain Pipon, ‘to describe the universal joy that these poor people manifested, and the gratitude they expressed for the kindness and consideration shown to them.’

[...]

This interesting little colony was now found to contain about forty-six persons, mostly grown-up young people, with a few infants. The young men all born on the island were finely formed, athletic and handsome—their countenances open and pleasing, indicating much benevolence and goodness of heart, but the young women particularly were objects of attraction, being tall, robust, and beautifully formed, their faces beaming with smiles, and indicating unruffled good humour; while their manners and demeanour exhibited a degree of modesty and bashfulness, that would have done honour to the most virtuous and enlightened people on earth. Their teeth are described as beautifully white, like the finest ivory, and perfectly regular, without a single exception; and all of them, both male and female, had the marked expression of English features, though not exactly the clear red and white, that distinguish English skins, theirs being the colour of what we call brunette. Captain Pipon thinks that from such a race of people, consisting of fine young men and handsome well-formed women, there may be expected to arise hereafter, in this little colony, a race of people possessing in a high degree the physical qualifications of great strength, united with symmetry of form and regularity of feature.

But their personal qualifications, attractive as they were, excited less admiration than the account which Adams gave of their virtuous conduct. He assured his visitors that not one instance of debauchery or immoral conduct had occurred among these young people, since their settlement on the island; nor did he ever hear, or believe, that any one instance had occurred of a young woman having suffered indecent liberties to be taken with her. Their native modesty, assisted by the precepts of religion and morality, instilled into their young minds by John Adams, had hitherto preserved these interesting people from every kind of debauchery. The young women told Captain Pipon, with great simplicity, that they were not married, and that their father, as they called Adams, had told them it was right they should wait with patience till they had acquired sufficient property to bring up a young family, before they thought of marrying; and that they always followed his advice because they knew it to be good.

[...]

The younger part of the females are obliged to attend, with old Adams and their brothers, to the culture of the land, and Captain Pipon thinks this may be one reason why this old director of the work does not countenance too early marriages, for, as he very properly observed, when once they become mothers, they are less capable of hard labour, being obliged to attend to their children; and, judging from appearance, ‘one may conclude,’ says the Captain, ‘they would be prolific’; that ‘he did not see how it could be otherwise, considering the regularity of their lives, their simple and excellent though abstemious mode of living, their meals consisting chiefly of a vegetable diet, with now and then good pork and occasionally fish.’

The young girls, although they have only the example of the Otaheitan mothers to follow in their dress, are modestly clothed, having generally a piece of cloth of their own manufacture, reaching from the waist to the knees, and a mantle, or something of that nature, thrown loosely over the shoulders, and hanging sometimes as low as the ankles: this mantle, however, is frequently thrown aside, being used rather as a shelter for their bodies from the heat of the sun, or the severity of the weather, than for the sake of attaching any idea of modesty to the upper part of the person being uncovered; and it is not possible, he says, to behold finer forms than are exhibited by this partial exposure. Captain Pipon observes, ‘it was pleasing to see the good taste and quickness with which they form little shades or parasols of green leaves, to place over the head, or bonnets, to keep the sun from their eyes. A young girl made one of these in my presence, with such neatness and alacrity, as to satisfy me that a fashionable dressmaker of London would be delighted with the simplicity and elegant taste of these untaught females.’ The same young girl, he says, accompanied them to the boat, carrying on her shoulders, as a present, a large basket of yams, ‘over such roads and down such precipices, as were scarcely passable by any creatures except goats, and over which we could scarcely scramble with the help of our hands. Yet with this load on her shoulders, she skipped from rock to rock like a young roe.’

‘But,’ says Captain Pipon, ‘what delighted us most, was the conviction which John Adams had impressed on the minds of these young people, of the propriety and necessity of returning thanks to the Almighty for the many blessings they enjoy. They never omit saying grace before and after meals, and never think of touching food without asking a blessing from Him who gave it. The Lord’s Prayer and the Creed they repeat morning and evening.’

[...]

The men are stated to be from five feet eight inches to six feet high, of great muscular strength and excellent figures. ‘We did not see,’ says Captain Waldegrave, ‘one cripple or defective person, except one boy, whom, in the most good-humoured way, and laughing heartily, they brought to me, observing, “You ought to be brothers, you have each lost the right eye.” I acknowledged the connexion, and no doubt for the future he will be called the Captain.’

Captain Beechey [who visited the island in 1825] has given a more detailed account of the physical qualities of the Pitcairn Islanders. He says they are tall, robust, and healthy; their average height five feet ten inches; the tallest man measured six feet and one quarter of an inch, and the shortest of the adults five feet nine inches and one-eighth; their limbs well proportioned, round and straight; their feet turning a little inwards. A boy of eight years measured four feet and one inch; another of nine years, four feet three inches. Their simple food and early habits of exercise give them a muscular power and activity not often surpassed. It is recorded on the island that George Young and Edward Quintal have each carried, at one time, a kedge anchor, two sledge hammers, and an armourer’s anvil, weighing together upwards of six hundred pounds; and that Quintal once carried a boat twenty-eight feet in length. In the water they are almost as much at home as on land, and can remain almost a whole day in the sea. They frequently swim round their little island, the circuit of which is at the least seven miles; and the women are nearly as expert swimmers as the men.

The female descendants of the Otaheite women are almost as muscular as the males, and taller than the generality of the sex. Polly Young, who is not the tallest on the island, measured five feet nine inches and a half. The features of both men and women are regular and well-formed; eyes bright and generally hazel, though in a few instances blue; the eyebrows thin and rarely meeting; the nose a little flattened, and being rather extended at the nostrils, partakes of the Otaheitan character, as do the lips, which are broad and strongly sulcated; their ears moderately large, and the lobes are invariably united with the cheek; they are generally perforated, when young, for the reception of flowers, a very common custom among the natives of the South Sea Islands; hair black, sometimes curling, sometimes straight; teeth regular and white. On the whole they are a well-looking people.

[...]

As a proof how very much simple diet and constant exercise tend to the healthful state of the body, the skin of these people, though in such robust health, compared with that of the Europeans, always felt cold, and their pulses always considerably lower. The doctor examined several of them: in the forenoon he found George Young’s only sixty; three others, in the afternoon, after dinner, were sixty-eight, seventy-two, and seventy-six, while those of the officers who stood the heat of the climate best were above eighty.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14424/14424.txt

11

Posted by Mark Richardson on October 14, 2006, 07:09 PM | #

Hybrid vigour? There is a vast territory of the earth with mixed race populations (much of central Asia). Are these really the places noted for civilisational advance? Think Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan etc.

Even in the animal kingdom attempts at interbreeding often fail to produce vigour. One example is the Indian zoo which tried to bolster the number of Asian lions by interbreeding them with African lions. The offspring are barely able to move to get to their food, being partly lame.

See here

12

Posted by Al Ross on October 14, 2006, 07:22 PM | #

Maybe if Iceland added some Jew-recommended hybrid vigour it could get its per capita GDP down from 31900 dollars to much-miscegenated Brazil’s 5000 dollars.

13

Posted by James Bowery on October 14, 2006, 07:40 PM | #

Al, you realize that when you say the word “Jew” you realize, of course, that this automatically disqualifies your opinions unless of course, you are Jewish.

14

Posted by Al Ross on October 14, 2006, 07:42 PM | #

Unfortunate, but true, James.

15

Posted by Svyatoslav Igorevich on October 14, 2006, 10:09 PM | #

One comment, maybe one or two paragraphs max should do it, Alon. That’ll be enough. It’s not like you’ll have to make any uncomfortable admissions to us, because we’ll all understand immediately.

The question in question is best asked rhetorically.  The status quo allows Ziv to dissemble and score a rhetorical point free of charge.

16

Posted by Fred Scrooby on October 15, 2006, 12:56 AM | #

This book, which I certainly don’t plan on reading, is merely the lastest offensive in a long campaign of Jewish attacks on the collective Euro-Christian ethno-nationality using race as the weapon.  Should I read it, given that time for reading (or for doing anything else) is limited and precious and I already know the strategy the book is intended to advance?  I don’t think so.  I’ll skip it. 

Jewish genocidal attacks on Euros, such as this book, have been mounted repeatedly for more than a century, the Jewish goal being to get Euros race-replaced.  Jewish pursuit of that goal through the astonishingly brazen tactic of academic race-denial is no longer viable, the growth of genetic knowledge having turned race-denial (which Jews invented and disproportionately pushed) into a laughing stock.  So this other tactic, this “Yes, OK, there are races ... and whites are far better off mixing with non-whites,” is now being trotted out, the underlying goal being transparently the same:  not scientific truth but race-replacement of Euros.

If this tactic fails the Jews will simply trot out another tactic, then another, and another — always aiming at the same goal, namely:  (see above).

17

Posted by J Richards on October 15, 2006, 01:01 AM | #

Alon Ziv,

I am glad you responded.  Yes, I sent you an email about this review because it is only fair to let someone being critiqued have an opportunity to defend himself.

My request to commentators regarding avoiding anti-Semitism does not speak volumes about this site like you have inferred, but since we allow unregistered individuals to leave anonymous comments, we risk attracting outrageous comments, that could very well be from an agent provocateur, and I don’t want to deal with such comments in an academic discussion.

You could have convinced me about your thesis if you had decent data to back it up, discussed evidence to the contrary that I have pointed out and showed how counter-evidence does not undermine your thesis.

You mention me nitpicking your arguments.  Toward the beginning of my review, I do address miscellaneous points by you, but the major part of my review is concerned with your main thesis, which I have addressed extensively.

I can understand you substituting symmetry for fluctuating symmetry given your targeted readership, but it is inexcusable for you to talk about perfect symmetry being the goal of design given well-documented examples of directional asymmetry and antisymmetry.  You could have introduced the reader to fluctuating asymmetry and said that henceforth whenever I talk about greater symmetry, I am specifically referring to reduced fluctuating asymmetry.  This way your book would not be littered with the phrase “fluctuating asymmetry.”

I have not misrepresented your argument about mules.  You have clearly stated that a mule may display some hybrid vigor, in the form of stamina and load-bearing capacity; I have not implied that you have argued that mules display hybrid vigor; my pointer is that if there are some pluses of hybridization and also some minuses, especially major ones such as infertility, then the phrase “some hybrid vigor” is not justified at all. 

I have not glossed over Gillian Rhodes’ study about the allegedly greater rated attractiveness of Eurasians.  I have pointed out its serious shortcomings: the use of unattractive whites, which is self-evident from the composite images; the assumption of averaging facial features between Europeans and East Asians, which anecdotal experience should caution one against, which in turn is confirmed by Martinez-Abadias et al.’s (Ref. #72) paper on multiple deviations from the average of parental races in mixed offspring; and flawed methodology such as averaging faces after equalizing the distance between the eyes, which does not do justice to both shape and size differences between Europeans and East Asians.  In addition, although Gillian Rhodes et al. did construct hypothetical Eurasian averages, their study was divided into a series of experiments, and one of these generated a Eurasian composite using actual Eurasian people.

I have not dismissed Jay Phelan’s study, but have expressed surprise that four years after its completion it still remains unpublished, and I also find the striking differences in fluctuating asymmetry difficult to believe.  When this study is published, I will review it at this site.

Regarding the Udry study, there are several points that I would like to make.  Whereas you may find it unconvincing, it is a given in scholarship that one is supposed to cite the literature that bears on the topic that one is addressing regardless of whether it supports one’s argument.  If the literature in question does not support one’s viewpoint, then one needs to show how it does not undermine one’s thesis, but you make no mention of the study, and neither do you cite previously published relevant papers such as reference numbers 49, 51 and 52.

The answer to your question, “Is it meaningful that mixed-race adolescents are more likely to wake up tired?” in reference to Udry’s paper is yes, this question is meaningful as far as health goes.  Udry’s study assessed several other variables that directly pertain to health issues.  This study was not specifically geared toward studying the health of mixed-race adolescents and collected a wide variety of data, including that on sexual experiences.  There is nothing inappropriate about Udry reporting the data on sexual experiences.  In fact, precocious sexuality is associated with problematic behaviors, and therefore the sexuality data is aptly reported.

Regarding the issue of statistical significance in reference to my comment on Table 2 of Udry’ study, my comment is in agreement with what Udry wrote.  Setting alpha at the 0.05 level is a common compromise to guard against both Type I and Type II errors, but sometimes one sees a non-significant trend that would be significant if the sample size were larger, and given the general picture in Udry’s data, and the random and representative sampling, if the listed odds ratio is much larger than 1.00 but not significant (e.g., from the table: 1.50, 1.57, 1.75), then the inference that this odds ratio would be significant in a larger sample is justified.

Udry’s study is not just concerned about behaviors but also symptoms such as headaches and skin problems.  Even behaviors such as smoking pertain to health issues not only in the sense of smoking causing health problems but a problematic physical constitution leading to a susceptibility to drug dependence in the first place.  The proportion of people that smoke regularly are a fraction of the number of people that have ever smoked in their lifetime.  Factors implicated in smoking dependence include genetic factors and developmental instability.  If the odds of developmental instability are increased as a result of race mixing in humans, then the incidence of susceptibility to drug dependence will be higher among mixed race individuals.

You mention that you know of no better measure for overall genetic quality than symmetry and that there is a large body of work showing the power of symmetry to predict health, attractiveness, fertility and athleticism.  However, health, attractiveness, fertility and athleticism are influenced by a large number of variables, and the variance in each of these measures that is explained by fluctuating asymmetry alone will be very little, which is evident in the literature.  In addition, as the meta-analysis by Vollestad et al. makes it clear, the relationship between fluctuating asymmetry and heterozygosity is very weak.  In other words, if one assumes that there are no deleterious effects of race mixing, then given the very weak relationship between fluctuating asymmetry and heterozygosity and the very small to moderate effect size of fluctuating asymmetry with respect to health, attractiveness, fertility and athleticism, your argument that race mixing will improve health, attractiveness, fertility and athleticism is a very weak argument, and it is demolished when one considers the costs, namely documented evidence regarding deleterious biological effects, loss of kinship and ethnic genetic interests, etc.

Regarding what motivated you to write this book, there are reasons to question your stated reasons given the tone of your book and your omission of a lot of literature that you have undoubtedly come across.  The science in your book and in my review is easily within the grasp of a college senior majoring in biology, but your education is at a much higher level.  Ignorance or incompetence on your part are almost guaranteed to be non-issues.  And, your point about encouraging a dialog on race is irrelevant.  If you are aware of the nature of race denial, then you should realize that your poor sources in support of biological races among humans do not help at all.  More importantly, it is well-known that sub-populations of a race that have been geographically separated for some time will differ genetically, and that the mixing of these sub-populations will increase heterozygoisty, as shown by Mingroni (Ref. # 76) in his example of allele frequencies taken from various Yanomamo villages, which you have probably read given that you cited his paper.  In other words, your argument simply requires that human populations differ in allele frequencies, which they do, but not that humans be divided into races.  Geographically separated populations need not constitute separate races in order to achieve increased heterozygoisty among offspring born to parents from different geographical regions.  Therefore, how will your argument encourage a dialog on race?

18

Posted by J Richards on October 15, 2006, 01:10 AM | #

Fred Scrooby,

Damn!  There is no need to criticize Jews in general in this thread.  Avoid it here please; I want Ziv to respond.  Besides, Ziv is right that his book is very readable and has a lot of interesting information; it wouldn’t hurt to read it.

————————-

Guessedworker,

Ziv does not address EGI, and I have pointed this out in my review.

19

Posted by Fred Scrooby on October 15, 2006, 02:01 AM | #

Sorry, I’m supposed to read a “book” that has stuff in it like this?:

“Ziv even says that ‘since race is really a continuum, there is no ideal way to define or document it.’ “

In other words, since a blade of grass and a giant sequoia are on a continuum there is no such category as “trees”?  For all anyone knows, a tree might be a blade of grass?  (... and a Negro might be a white man, as well as a Chinaman an Australian Aborigine? ...) 

I respect you, JR, but you’ve got to be fricking joking.  Read this?  This “book”?  Gee, thanks but ... uhhh ... no thanks ...

That single quote from this “book” by itself identifies the whole shebang as one-hundred-percent pure charlatanism, no different from Gould’s race-denial-by-means-of-the-most-idiotic-sophistries.

20

Posted by Al Ross on October 15, 2006, 02:07 AM | #

Fred, surely you know that for scientists like Alon Ziv there is only one race - the human race.

21

Posted by Nick Tamiroff on October 15, 2006, 03:29 AM | #

Damn Fred-You are getting more on-point,and vocal-glad to see it-I usually feel lonely.Not too many US posters,but yours are the most followed by me,although Al Ross and JB pique my interest most times-Soren,Matra,Boris,and others are well informed,but from a European perspective.Bottom line-Great comment!  As an aside,I agree with J Richards-too damn much Jew bashing-leave that to VNN.NO-I’m not a Jew,married to one,nor have relatives who are Jewish.I still consider them our pit-bulls in the Mid-East.Our money is better spent on arms for the IDF than AIDS care in Africa. Semper Fi!

22

Posted by Nick Tamiroff on October 15, 2006, 04:01 AM | #

J.Richards-As an established member of “the great unwashed”,I truly wish to commend you on your review of the Ziv manifesto-I actually fell off my chair reading your refutations of some of his most elegant and elitist {not to mention ignorant]Pontifications.Just what sort of bubble-world do people like this live-or did he inherit $50 Mill from his senile father?I just got the book,and am trying to read it ,without gagging every third page.I think I wasted my money-back to porn!

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Posted by Furius on October 15, 2006, 04:24 AM | #

Maybe if Iceland added some Jew-recommended hybrid vigour it could get its per capita GDP down from 31900 dollars to much-miscegenated Brazil’s 5000 dollars.

That’s another example of why this book is a pile of rubbish. While money is not an issue, buying a book like this would amount to patronising such garbage, which I have no intention of doing.

24

Posted by Furius on October 15, 2006, 04:38 AM | #

We are on the cusp of a mixed-race explosion

A comment like that shows that Ziv is either an ignoramus or a deliberate and bald faced lier - in the Franz Boas tradition. There are large swaths of the earth that are populated by mixed race populations (most of Latin America, huge chunks of Asia and the Middle East). No “explosion” here (North America and Europe) would change what we already know about mixed race populations.

Unless of course, what he really means is the extinction of European derived peoples which is the only thing he is interested in.

25

Posted by Steve Edwards on October 15, 2006, 05:09 AM | #

I see Alon Ziv has so far failed to respond to GW’s questions. Perhaps JR can send a reminder email?

26

Posted by AlonandMichalWedding on October 15, 2006, 05:19 AM | #

The following is not meant to be anti-Semitism nor a personal attack, but it is relevant with respect to the issue of motivation.

Please see here:
(link deleted - Ed)

Also note the surnames, as well as phenotypes, noted under the category of “Michal’s family” (as well, of course, under “Alon’s family).

Alon’s wife is clearly Caucasian.  Based on physical appearance and surnames, it seems most likely that Michal is, like Alon, Jewish, and most probably Ashkenazim.

Interesting.

27

Posted by Al Ross on October 15, 2006, 06:11 AM | #

In the matter of race-mixing, the European has crossed with every known race of humanity in the course of his Imperial conquest of the world.

This miscegenation has resulted in an inextricable mass of mixed peoples and has availed the world nothing in terms of superior specimens of mankind.

28

Posted by Steve Edwards on October 15, 2006, 07:01 AM | #

So how come Alon missed out on the opportunity to have “more attractive” and “healthier” children for himself? Or did he only come to his revelation after it was too late?

29

Posted by Guessedworker on October 15, 2006, 07:21 AM | #

So, we have no reply from Alon to my question - which, of course, is a reply of sorts, always assuming he has the intellectual curiosity to revisit the thread.  His silence is all the more suspicious because we can now see that Alon has not, in fact, pursued the course maritally that he commends to the rest of us.

You know, Alon, there’s something not quite straight in all this that I wish you would sort out.  I admit it could be a case of the bitter and defeated victim of circumstance imploring those he loves to “Do as I say, not as I do.”  And if you are such a man, such a charitable, well-meaning man, and we merely misunderstand you ... if you are indeed filled with regret about the “non-vigorous” course your life has taken, I think you had better speak to your wife.

Have you even owned up to her about writing this book on going wild in Rwanda and Burundi?  I could understand if you haven’t.  She could easily worry about you getting the hots for every passing Bantu chick in LA.  And then, she might think that you don’t trust her.  You know the cover of your own book, don’t you ... that recommendation to white girls to go get themselves a better quality of orgasm with a well-endowed Rwandan.

Just by the by, I sort of wondered how that would work out for us pathetic white guys as we follow your advice and try to maximise our “vigour”.  How can we do that ... how can we get anywhere if we just can’t keep a Bantu slack Alice happy?

No Alon, there’s something fishy in all this.  I really wish you would come back and tell us where we are getting you wrong.

30

Posted by Steve Edwards on October 15, 2006, 07:31 AM | #

Every side here knows exactly what’s going on, and where their opponents are at - but only one side is open about their intentions. What gives?

31

Posted by Englander on October 15, 2006, 09:57 AM | #

J. Richards has done a great job and I doubt if Alon Ziv will come back. He doesn’t need to, his book is out there doing what he intended it to do.

I see there are two gushing reviews of this book on Amazon.  It would be a great service to add an alternative viewpoint to that site, and perhaps a link to this discussion (if Amazon allows that).

32

Posted by Fred Scrooby on October 15, 2006, 09:59 AM | #

“the extinction of European derived peoples which is the only thing he is interested in.”

 

Furius, I’m afraid, has got it exactly right.  Furius has named the other side’s motivation in stark but accurate terms.  Furthermore, to anyone who looks at what’s going on with this book under discussion in the context of what’s been going on roughly for the past hundred years this objective of theirs should be transparent.  Things that seemed utter mysteries, seemed to make no sense at all, are fully explained.  This is their nationalism.  They’re fighting for their race by trying to destroy ours.  They may vary the weapons used, never the goal of elimination of Euros as a race.

“Every side here knows exactly what’s going on, and where their opponents are at - but only one side is open about their intentions. What gives?”

Where many of them are concerned, Steve, we may be dealing with repression in the Freudian sense:  they may repress their real motivations, which are (a non-messy, slow but sure) genocide.  Through a mechanism of Freudian repression they may not permit conscious realization of this motivation to enter in their minds.  That would certainly explain how they can deny with such bold faces what they’re obviously up to.  (Some of them, of course, aren’t repressing anything but are fully aware of what they’re doing.)

33

Posted by Fred Scrooby on October 15, 2006, 10:01 AM | #

“perhaps a link to this discussion (if Amazon allows that).”

That link would get deleted in less than a nanosecond.

34

Posted by Guessedworker on October 15, 2006, 10:40 AM | #

A review at Amazon would be a good and perhaps necessary idea.  But, of course, one has to have read the book.  JR?

35

Posted by Fred Scrooby on October 15, 2006, 10:56 AM | #

“You know the cover of your own book, don’t you ... that recommendation to white girls to go get themselves a better quality of orgasm with a well-endowed Rwandan.”  (—GW, a few above)

How can this man marry any woman in good faith knowing, as he “does,” that, not being a Negro, he’ll only ever give her inadequate orgasms?  Isn’t marriage-to-him something only an extremely selfish man would inflict on any woman?

36

Posted by Andy on October 15, 2006, 11:59 AM | #

What would be wrong—with JR’s approval of course—with someone copying and posting this outstanding review on Amazon? Obviously it would have to be altered slightly and the pictures and graphs removed.  If you feel that the review is too long for the average Amazon shopper, perhaps someone could shorten this review so that it just hits the high points.

37

Posted by Guessedworker on October 15, 2006, 12:16 PM | #

Well, here anyway are a few more serious questions for Alon.

1) As you agree that race exists, do you also agree that the Boas-Montague-Gould-Lewontin-Diamond-Wise line on the non-existence of race, for example the following passage on race from Encyclopedia Brittanica ...

Genetic studies in the late 20th century denied the existence of biogenetically distinct races, and scholars now argue that “races” are cultural interventions reflecting specific attitudes and beliefs that were imposed on different populations in the wake of western European conquests beginning in the 15th century.

... was and is a Marxist scam?

2) Do you accept that Jewish intellectuals were disproportionately to the fore in that scam, and would you care to put forward an explanation for that?

3) Do you accept the validity of the genetic research that has found population clusters as well as clines, or are you a “clines only” man?  Because that’s just another way of denying race, which you say you don’t do.  If you are indeed a “clines only” man, how do you refute the research showing clusters?  Or do you just want to cherry-pick?

4) Steve Sailor’s VDare article on your opus states: Gregory Cochran told me that he and University of Utah population geneticist Henry Harpending once scanned the medical literature to see if interracial mating increased human fertility (due to hybrid vigor) or decreased it (due to genetic incompatibilities). They concluded that whatever net effect might exist was smaller than the statistical margin of error in the studies.

So, if mixed-race couples don’t produce more children than endogamous parents, on what basis can you compensate for their loss of parental kinship?

Would not this loss of parental kinship constitute a loss of fitness?

5) What hard evidence do you have that shows that, in the round, mixed race children are actually healthier than white children?  For example, what health benefits accrue from Bantu-European miscegenation that compensate for the known increase in mental health problems that afflict black-white mixed-race children and adolescents.

6) JR tells me that you took no account of ethnic genetic interests in your book.  Don’t even mention them.  But in this world of unidirectional migration the loss of fitness that results from loss of parental kinship plainly projects on Europeans in general as a loss of EGI.  How can exogamy possibly throw up “compensations” for something of which it is the cause?  It’s double-talk.

7) Now let’s fast forward to a future Zivworld.  Whaddya know, we’re all brown and, well, bigger and we spend one heck of a lot of time chasing that next great orgasm.  But what will have happened to the mean IQ of the West, Alon?  And its prosperity, civility, aesthetics, its culture of progress?  Any loss of fitness percolating through to your brain there?

8) Now a really tough test of integrity, Alon ... if you were ordered by an employer, say, to gather research evidence against hybrid vigour from second generations on, could you find any?  It’s interesting you see, because my local plant nursery breeds fuschias and camillas from original parental stock.  They keep these fabulous plants just for that purpose.  They must have found, don’t you know, that outbreeding depression reduces their livelihood.

Strange how humble plant-breeders know that only too well but you, an IQ 130 man I suppose, don’t.  Or perhaps you do but don’t want to tell us.

So which is it?  Could you find evidence against your own thesis of human hybrid vigour?  Did you look before you wrote your book, or did you merely cherry-pick?

And what might have been your reason for cherry-picking?

38

Posted by onetwothree on October 15, 2006, 12:25 PM | #

Maybe his publisher came up with the title “breeding between the lines” but something about it bugs me a little. The term “breeding” is rarely used in reference to humans, and strongly implies a deliberate policy, as imposed by a rancher on his cattle.

Anyway. If you “breed” a thoroughbred horse with a draft horse, you’ll have an offspring much more suited for certain uses, at the expense of the speed and strength of the parents. An animal really doesn’t belong to a race unless it has this or that characteristic sticking out. And any characteristic far from the average can easily creep into excess.

Part of white people’s characteristic look is the long nose, while blacks have wide noses. While Asians rarely have noses too long or too wide, it is common for whites or blacks to, as I said, creep into excess. “Breed” a white and a black, and you tend to average out every characteristic, including those near the extreme, reducing the possibility of too much of any.

My point is: This trims off the edges of the curves. I can see a slight improvement in average looks because of this. Any improvements will be seen mainly in ugly people (*).  But _real_ beauty depends upon those characteristics remaining.

Also, you might want to submit an abridged version of your review to Amazon.

(*) Not exactly scientific, but I invite my readers to compare the models on this website (ethnic info included) with the model on Alon’s book. See how many pages you have to flip through before finding a woman less attractive than his:

http://models.com/model_culture/model_of_week/

39

Posted by Fred Scrooby on October 15, 2006, 12:48 PM | #

“I invite my readers to compare the models on this website (ethnic info included) with the model on Alon’s book. See how many pages you have to flip through before finding a woman less attractive than his”  (—Onetwothree)

I only looked at the first page that came up via the link; didn’t go to any others.  Every gal on that first page, including Diana, an Oriental, and Jeneil, a Negro, is more attractive than the supposedly “attractive” model on Ziv’s book cover except for Nicol, also a Negro, who is less attractive.  Nicol is the only one of the 25 on that page whom Ziv’s mixed-race “beauty” beats in attractiveness.

40

Posted by James Bowery on October 15, 2006, 01:18 PM | #

By the way, when I said that quality is more important that quantity—and that with the departure of John Jay Ray, the quality of the site has gone up due to reduced quantity, an article like J Richards’ is what I was referring to.

I have paused posting my own potential blog entries for a while out of respect for J Richards’ extraordinary contribution to MR as apparently have others.  If JJR were still around he’d not have had the courtesy to pause his postings out of said respect and this refutation of Alon Ziv’s propaganda would have been long buried. 

PS: A saving characteristic of this site’s software is that the “Most Recent Comments” side-bar does help keep higher quality articles active longer—sometimes much longer.

41

Posted by Guessedworker on October 15, 2006, 03:02 PM | #

I agree with every word of that, James.

42

Posted by Englander on October 15, 2006, 03:10 PM | #

IMO mixed race people, and ethnic minorities in general, hold an exotic appeal which increases their actual value in the minds of many of the white public. Mixed-race people are also heavily promoted in the media at this time, probably by men like Mr Ziv, and we all know that gaining celebrity status increases the desirability of a person beyond what they are actually worth. Are Hollywood celebrities really the most beautiful people on earth?  Not at all, but becoming one can make you seem that way in the eyes of the public.
The most in-demand mixed-race celebrities at the moment are not even the finest examples of their kind.

43

Posted by MaliceZiv on October 15, 2006, 04:03 PM | #

Outbreeding depression:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outbreeding_depression

Note how in the first admixed generation -which is of course what Ziv wishes us to concentrate on - relief of inbreeding depression (hybrid vigor) is most pronounced, while outbreeding depression usually does not yet peak.

However, in subsequent generations, vigor is lost and outbreeding depression is a more serious problem.  The low quality of mixed race populations that can be observed today reflects this timing phenomenon, as these populations have been in existence for many generations.

As a noted Philosopher, L.P. Berra, once said, “The game ain’t over until the fat lady sings.”

With respect to “improvement” of phenotypic traits, one cannot end the examination with the first generation, but must follow through on the evidence of history showing the end results of admixture over multiple generations. The “game” isn’t over after the first generation.  It in fact never ends as long as particular lineages are in existence.

Of course, Guessedworker’s objection also stands.  If mixed race people do not have more children than others, than what is the point?  If the loss in kinship from exogamy is not compensated by at least an equal gain from exogamy, what is the point? One of the first things one learns in an elementary biology course is that biological fitness is not about how much someone can benchpress, or how fast they can run.  It is about genetic reproduction.

Ziv must hope his readership does not realize this.

44

Posted by Guessedworker on October 15, 2006, 04:15 PM | #

I’ve decided to delete the link to that wedding page.  It has been pointed out to me that there is insufficient likeness between the guy in the shots and the image on Alon’s book jacket to be confident that they are the same guy.  Doubt means deletion, and also an apology to whichever Alon Ziv was a-jumpin on that site if it wasn’t our man.

The questions to him, of course, remain.

45

Posted by Furius on October 15, 2006, 05:11 PM | #

The whole argument behind Ziv’s thesis is so flimsy that anyone with good sense and a bit of understanding as regards the JQ would see through it in an instant.

I am delighted to see, however, that this book ranks 26,000th in Amazon’s list. That’s nothing to worry about with great seriousness.  If this book had the same level of success as Freakonomics, for example, it would require a lot more work in terms of rebuttal because it could do a lot more damage.

Lastly, attraction is mostly pure animal instinct. For example, white males that are not attracted to mulatto women will continue to be disinterested in them regardless of what anyone tells them in any thesis. If I stand and keep screaming that the sky is green (and back it up with fancy arguments), it won’t make people believe it any more than if I didn’t have fancy arguments.

46

Posted by calvin on October 15, 2006, 06:43 PM | #

Sorry guys. I’ve nothing clever to say and there have been some great posts on this topic but I think that Mr Fred Scrooby hit the nail on the head in his first post. If a Jewish academic thinks that miscegenation is a great thing let him preach it to his brethren first. Practice and then preach and you might get some converts and maybe collect a little bit of credibility along the way Mr Ziv; preach but don’t practice and you are only exposing yourself as another in a long line of sanctimonious hypocrites.
Racial integrity brought us Shakespeare, Milton, Newton, Abelard, Edison, Mozart etc, etc, ad infinitum. Am I supposed to abandon my ancestors in the hope that we might breed a few more Mike Tysons? There is an old Spanish saying, “ If hard work was such a great thing the rich would have kept it all to themselves” and if race mixing was a sure fire way to increase genetic fitness, you can bet dollars to donuts that the discoverers of this truth would be more keen to shit a porcupine than to disseminate this knowledge to all and sundry. To show our generosity as a race we’ll let you and your race have all the “benefits” of mixing all to yourselves. I personally intend to stay White, stay proud and stay here. Thanks all the same!

47

Posted by Amalek on October 15, 2006, 06:43 PM | #

We are on the cusp of a mixed-race explosion

Don’t think so; at least not indiscriminately between all races and both sexes in our thrice-blessed multiracial societies. And certainly not in the USA. There the incidence of mixed-race marriage (and childbearing relationships outside the peculiar institution) is still rather small—when you consider that one in four of the population is non-white, formal segregation ended one or two generations ago and colour-blindness has been dinned into the majority as a Good Thing for 40 years or more.

Steve Sailer noticed this reluctance in ‘Is Love Colorblind?’, which has become something of a classic:

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/interracial_marriage.htm

In Britain, however, it is said that we are lucky to have the highest rate of b/w miscegenation anywhere: over half of black males keep company with young white ladies, and the black gals complain that the bruthas flip them off.

White men and black girls do not click nearly as much (for which Sailer also has reasons) and the bm/ww statistic perhaps should undergo further scrutiny, like the Jewish outmarriage rate. But if it’s true, one can interpret it less as a heartwarming challenge to prejudice than as the sound of the selfish gene working overtime.

Black man thinks: ‘I’m on a quantity, not quality, repro strategy—better give my numerous offspring a better start by splicing with a white, and odds are that my kids will interbreed with other whites. In two or three generations the black will be pretty well washed out, and the IQ and social acceptability of my descendants will be preferable to those of a pure black or half-caste… Right, biological destiny calls. It’s my fate to drown my bloodline. Better hit the clubs where the chocolate chasers hang out; if Phil Rushton’s right I’ve no time to lose, man!’

PS: A curious feature of mixing and non-mixing (not that I’ve yet perused Mr Ziv’s tome yet) is that Israeli Jews stay so aloof from their semitic neighbours the Arabs—even fellow Israelis—when it comes to the mating game. Why aren’t peoples which Jewish geneticists have demonstrated are virtually identical keener on the mating game? That’s one “cusp” that the Jews never get over.

48

Posted by Rnl on October 15, 2006, 06:47 PM | #

Alon has written everything from musical comedy to academic papers. He enjoys presenting science to the public in new and entertaining ways. Most recently, he has written online for Flak Magazine, Opium Magazine, and Recess.

http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~checkone/newsletter0203.htm

The links below are implicitly ad hominem. Ziv’s learned opinion on the merits of various chocolate bars doesn’t, of course, undermine his factual arguments in favor of White annihilation, but still ...

Ziv’s Mind at Play:
http://www.flakmag.com/misc/watcha.html

Ziv the Movie Reviewer:
http://www.jmdb.org/about.htm

Alon is excited to be a part of the JMDb, but the truth is that movies are mostly just a popcorn delivery system for him.

That sounds plausible, since Jackass Number Two is among his favorite films. He gave it an 8/10 rating. He also loved Pleasantville (a 9/10), which tells you quite a bit, but out of deference to the initiator of this thread I won’t elaborate.

Ziv the Thoughtful Dissects Survivor:
http://www.breedingbetweenthelines.com/essay.htm

Richards has challenged the scientific evidence Ziv adduces for his case. Ziv is, I assume, factually wrong, though I’m not competent to tell. But what any of us can reasonably infer is that Ziv has no serious interests outside his area of expertise. He enjoys trashy pop culture, so it’s not surprising that he advances quasi-scientific arguments that, leaving aside their genocidal intentions, promote more of the same. As long as the degraded culture of Jackass Number Two survives and flourishes, Ziv will be content.

49

Posted by Rawlinson on October 15, 2006, 06:49 PM | #

OK, Alon Ziv, I’ll play here.  If you’re such a believer in interracial mixing, then tell me—how many Israelis marry Palestinians in any given year?  What’s the Israeli-Palestinian interracial rate?  Do you or your kids plan on marrying Palestinians, bringing about this “mixed culture” you wax so dreamily about?  Your denial of race and ethnicity is truly idiotic—you and your kind in Israel obviously adhere to it firmly, yet you deny it for others?  Even outside of the realm of social relations, from a strictly scientific standpoint, race is commonly accepted—certain health issues for example are divided according to race, at least in part.  It’s not precise but it very much does correspond to specific physical variables.

My guess is—you’d respond to this with revulsion, you want Israel *for* Israeli Jews and recoil in horror at the idea of Israeli Jews intermarrying with the despised Palestinians.  Now, we here can actually understand that (really, we can)—you in Israel have a distinct, separate ethnic culture that you want vigorously to preserve.  If so, fine.  But this also makes you a hypocrite, since you affirm this right to self-association and solidarity for yourself, yet attempt to deny it to everyone else.

The problem, Alon, is that you’ve failed to realize how corrosive the multi-cultural ethic has been in the USA, how it’s doing nothing less than destroying our nation.  Do you have any idea how damaging affirmative action is to the US?  Somehow, stemming from the machinations of that idiot Richard Nixon in 1969 and his Philadelphia Plan, all Whites in the US—doesn’t matter where—were declared “guilty as charged” for vague acts of “past discrimination.”  Didn’t matter if we’d never discriminated ourselves, didn’t matter if our ancestors were Irish who were brutalized by the British ourselves, or descended from Russian serfs enslaved for centuries.  No, if we had White skin, we were somehow evil oppressors, and we had to “pay up.”

This affirmative action burden becomes ever more oppressive as Whites in the USA are pushed increasingly to minority status.  This is also something that you and your people, Alon, helped to push—the 1965 immigration law and its descendants have consistently had your heavy support, although I will acknowledge that plenty of Gentiles were also integral to the introduction of this suicidally stupid policy.  As we become a minority here—White kids are already a minority in the early grades of school—Whites in the USA have to pay more and more and more to the “preferred groups.”  No legal remedy for this can even slightly change it—affirmative action is too well-entrenched in both the public and private sectors.

Oh, and one more thing—the products of these “interracial marriages” are still considered to be Blacks or other favored groups in the affirmative action system, which thus accelerates the extent to which the preferences system becomes an unbearable burden for Whites.  Or maybe this is your plan all along, eh Alon?  This system, intermarriage mixed with affirmative action, mixed with outsourcing and idiotic imperialistic foreign wars (like Iraq, which after all was fought in part to support Israel’s interests) is so toxic that it’s already crushed the heart of the USA—we’re already headed to disintegration.  The future of White civilization resides most likely in a few countries in Central Europe, not in North America, and people like you, Alon (and I again, I’m referring to plenty of deluded Gentiles here in addition to Jewish writers), are in part responsible for this ruin. 

Most of the smart people I know in the USA are already picking up a new language or two and getting out.  Even my best friend will likely soon be joining them.  Your stupidity, blindness and hypocrisy has ruined for good this once-great bastion of White civilization in North America.

50

Posted by Rawlinson on October 15, 2006, 08:10 PM | #

Nick Tamiroff wrote:

“As an aside,I agree with J Richards-too damn much Jew bashing-leave that to VNN.NOI ... still consider them [Israel] our pit-bulls in the Mid-East.Our money is better spent on arms for the IDF than AIDS care in Africa. Semper Fi!”

That’s stupid Nick, really flagrantly I-just-verbally-farted stupid.  First of all, your suggestion that we fork over still more money to our “pit bulls” the IDF, in the ME is idiotic.  At least a part of the IDF’s mission is this “Greater Israel” stupidity that involves direct invasions and appropriations of Arab homelands, an effort in which they’re supported by a subset of US psuedo-Christians of the evangelical set who have allowed themselves to be duped into the idea that they’d be heaven-bound by encouraging a big, bloody Middle eastern war.  The Arabs, understandably, are thoroughly pissed about this—angry at Israel and angry at the US for so nakedly supporting Israeli aggression. 

This, combined with stupid US actions like invading Arab countries ourselves, and placing our troops and bases on Arab lands, leads to terrorism against the USA.  Ideally, we’d have a full separation—Arabs stay in their homelands, Americans stay in theirs.  But no, we get the worst of both—Middle Easterners invited here in large numbers as part of the “diversity” scheme, while we invade and brutalize Arab lands ourselves, or subsidize the Israelis to do it.  Arabs and Palestinians don’t belong in the West, but by and large they want to be left to their own distinctive culture in their own lands.  I’m totally cool with that—I have no animosity toward them.

As for your “Jew-bashing” insinuation, I suspect that the vast majority of people here don’t have any built-in animosity toward Jewish people in general or toward most individual Jews.  There are many Jewish people whom I greatly respect and have befriended, and in respect I overall respect the contributions of Jewish civilization in general.  Conversely, I accept that many idiotic Gentiles who are also driving the US and Britain to complete ruin.

IOW, Nick, we don’t hate Jews or Jewish civilization—what we do despise is hypocrisy and disingenuous nationalism masquerading as ultra-liberal and freedom-loving ideals.  And unfortunately for many vested interests, we’re also realists—we call a spade a spade.  And what’s indisputable, unfortunately, is that a very large number of important Jews in high places are carrying on a truly reprehensible and hateful operation against Europeans whom they consider to be enemies.  I suspect that most Jews don’t harbor anti-White animus, but many in powerful positions very clearly do, and for reasons that are easy to grasp— solidarity of White European “tribes” threatens their own fantasies of supremacy.  So they strike out at us in subtle ways, affecting our minds and cultures so as to corrode our culture from within. 

What I suspect most of find to be most contemptible, is the utter hypocrisy of people like Alon Ziv and other Jewish people who preach the joys of multiculturalism and miscegenation to White Europeans—chiefly in North America, the UK and Australia, which have most fallen prey to these ideas—yet vigorously fight against such practices among their fellow Jews.  As many have pointed out, Israel has the Western world’s harshest laws against intermarrying and miscegenation—it’s flatly illegal and socially despised for a Jew to marry a non-Jew in Israel, and even Jews in the USA express spite for Jews who marry outside of the Jewish community.  That’s called “Bullshit” and it indicates some less-than-respectable, flat-out sinister motives among people like Ziv.  After all, if they believe so strongly in the virtues of miscegenation, why do they advocate it for others—yet resist it for themselves?  Obviously, they don’t actually believe in it deep-down, they it as a tool to damage their perceived enemies in the West.

I’ll conclude by agreeing that in the USA and UK, intermarriage has done nothing to solve race relations, only made them even more strained.  Blacks and Whites don’t intermarry nearly as much Ziv fantasizes, but it does happen, especially in the UK—which is dealing with nothing less than a demographic crisis made much worse by the steady decline in its White population.  The mixed kids, however, almost always identify as “Blacks,” get affirmative action benefits as Blacks, and often grow up hating Whites, including their own White family members. 

All of us, I’m sure, remember the White-Black mulatto Halle Berry after her Academy Award, clearly identifying as Black and talking up Black causes—despite the fact that her alcoholic Black father abused her White mother and abandoned them both, while her White mother patiently worked multiple jobs with grueling long hours while raising her daughter at home.  In the UK, where the intermarriage of Black men and White women truly is ridiculously high, the mulatto children tend to grow up rootless, frustrated, angry and confused about their own identity, though more often than not they identify as Black.  Moreover, British mulattos have the highest rate of any group of converting to Islam, higher even than the Black Jamaicans and other Caribbeans (who also convert at a high rate), and this is in part because Islam is seen as a form of rebellion against the British White ruling class that they hate so much.

IOW, Britain is destroying itself from the inside, and has fallen utterly for the miscegenation angle.  This is why so many White Britons these days are emigrating permanently to Continental European countries with a stronger sense of their own White culture.  The USA hasn’t gone quite as far in the same direction, but it plagues us here as well.  The most bitter opponents of race-mixing, in case you haven’t noticed, are Black women, who are deprived of capable Black husbands.  Moreover, Black-White intermarriage only exacerbates the affirmative action crisis which is tearing the nation apart.  Not a few Americans I know who’ve emigrated to the Europe Continent, like their British emigre counterparts, say they did so because they hate the idea of paying their taxes and their labor to a regime that hates them so much and wants to whittle away at their ethnic identity. 

The only sort-of mixed-race marriages that sort-of work in the US are those between Whites and East Asians, probably in part because the East Asians have a culture that has equalled and even surpassed European civilization for a good portion of the last millennium.  Still, even here such marriages often face big problems—the differences in cultures, national identification, identity and basic logistics are often very, very hard on such White-Asian couples and their kids.  While the idiotic US divorce laws have done severe damage to hard-working and capable Whites in general and made the institution a costly and dangerous risk for our best and most productive among the White ethnicity, still, White-White marriages overall tend to produce the healthiest and most accomplished offspring. 

In conclusion, Ziv is full of crap.  He’s a hypocrite posing as a humanitarian, like someone else who posted, who in fact is a nationalist trying to drive another stake into the heart of White European civilization—which he and his compatriots are in part succeeding in doing in Britain, the US and Australia.  I’m afraid that it’s too late to reverse the tide in the US and Britain in particular.

51

Posted by J Richards on October 15, 2006, 09:24 PM | #

To the bloggers,

Those of you holding back on posting because you want my entry to be on top for a while, please don’t.  I have made my entry sticky and left a note on top that for a while, newer entries will be posted below mine.

——————————-

To the readers,

Amazon.com does not allow links in reviews; its software automatically deletes a line if it encounters http or www, but it will probably not delete a link posted as follows:

majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/alon_ziv_on_race_mixing/

Those of you who want to read Ziv’s book but do not wish Ziv to benefit from royalties, go to a bookstore and read it.  For instance, I didn’t purchase Ziv’s book; I read it at Barnes and Noble.  Anyway, Ziv’s book is cheap.  I may post a review at the website of Barnes and Noble.

52

Posted by Northerner on October 15, 2006, 10:46 PM | #

Alon Ziv:

I appreciate you cautioning your friends against anti-Semitic comments, though the fact that such a warning is necessary speaks volumes about this forum. ... Since you are a member of a website that advocates the preservation of a single race I’m not surprised that you don’t agree with my thesis.

 

J. Richards appears to have given your book a more than fair hearing. He argues in good faith, and that good faith has not been returned. The fact that you preface your reply the way you do tells me you’re less than confident you can defend your arguments on their merits.

Since you question Richards’ ability to evaluate evidence impartially, I’ll add my voice to those asking where you stand on the preservation of Jews and why you aren’t preaching the loudest to the inbred minority most in need of it. Let Jews show us the way, by example this time. When Israel is a populated wholly by a race of Jewish-San-Hmong-Palestinian supermen, get back to us.

From your website:

One of my goals in writing Breeding Between the Lines was to start a dialog at the intersection of race and biology. My hope was to use this site as a forum for that dialog. Unfortunately, in the few days that this site has been online I have already been flooded with hateful email. I fear that any public forum would be quickly taken over by racists. To avoid this I have set up this page as a space for questions and answers.

Racists are so evil their concerns hold no weight? You’re not interested in showing racists the error of their ways in time for the upcoming, inevitable “mixed-race explosion”? Or you’re only interested in encouraging a “dialog” with those already susceptible to your message, and those damn racists would only get in the way by raising arguments you have no answer to?

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Posted by Nick Tamiroff on October 15, 2006, 11:14 PM | #

Rawlinson=Wow,I really raised your ire-but effective in seperating the sheep from the goats,and you definitely require a shearing.Your verbal premises are scatter-shot-going in all directions while postulating no aim point-Just WHAT are your perceptions on world affairs,and how do you perceive we mitigate the ME cluster-fuck without Isreal in our pocket. No-I will not join hands with you and sing KOMBAYA!Are you from Colimbia,Harvard,Chapel Hill,MS,or Berkley?Dick-heads like me want to know-or did your daddy leave you $10 million,and I will remain among “the great unwashed” LOl{and no semper fi for you]

54

Posted by Northerner on October 15, 2006, 11:25 PM | #

J. Richards’ glowing assessment of Razib (actual name removed- Ed.) Khan’s worth is now the number one hit for searches on “razib khan” at Google.

I suspect MR users can make this review the number one hit for “Alon Ziv”, and put it in the top 5 for “Breeding Between the Lines”. Amazon is always going to be the top hit for the book title, but if this review makes the first 5 or 10 hits on Google, it is likely to come to the attention of critically-minded readers or potential readers, who can take note of Ziv’s failure to respond to substantive criticisms of his book.

Rnl:

Can’t believe you didn’t mention Ziv’s favorite movie is “Annie Hall”.

More for Ziv:

How do you reconcile your claims that:

(1) You are not promoting interbreeding, merely reporting on an “interesting”, inevitable phenomenon.

(2) “As a country we need to be reminded that our diversity is a gift. ... And the real power of that gift is seen, not when it is separated and compartmentalized, but when it’s brought together. America is finally starting to fulfill its destiny as The Melting Pot; maybe someone should tell Mark Burnett.”

Further, if it’s acceptable to talk about the alleged “superiority” of mixed-race people, how would you react to a book asserting the superiority of whites over blacks in intelligence (the white-black IQ gap is much better established than many of the alleged advantages interbreeding you tout).

Since you argue for an intelligence advantage in white-Japanese hybrids, do you discuss the intelligence deficit for white-black hybrids (relative to whites)? If not, why not? Whites should be concerned with “superior intelligence” where it might induce them to interbreed, but not where it might make them think twice?

55

Posted by Fred Scrooby on October 15, 2006, 11:34 PM | #

“Unfortunately, in the few days that this site has been online I have already been flooded with hateful email.”  (—from Prof. Ziv’s web-site)

Right, when you’re telling Euros they have to go out of existence by marrying and having children with non-whites instead of with whites it can get some of them pretty steamed and they might just stop by your web-site and tell you what they think of you.  Isn’t this clear?  Why the passive-aggressive pretense of not comprehending this reaction on their part? 

I call on you, Professor, to tell Jews specifically, diaspora Jews and Israeli Jews, they have to marry and have children only with Nigerian Negroes, Mexicans, Chinamen, and Moslem Moroccans.  Not whites in general but Jews specifically.  They should not marry and reproduce among themselves.  Tell them that.

I’m waiting.

We’re all waiting.

Hello? ...

Anyone there? ...

Hellooooooo??? ...

...

Boy, suddenly you can hear a pin drop around here ...

56

Posted by Nick Tamiroff on October 15, 2006, 11:36 PM | #

Rawilson-I just re-read your post for a third time,and offer an abject apology.Iwish I could retract my previous post to you,but’,as you know,the written word cannot be retracted.I was just so incensed at the anti-Semite aspect,that I failed to reconize the underlying truths you esposed,and the basic veracity of your overall position. Again,sir-My Apologies,and Semper FI!

57

Posted by Nick Tamiroff on October 15, 2006, 11:46 PM | #

Fred S-You have once again dropped a turd in the punchbowl-let’s see who takes the first drink.LOL,CLASSIC!

58

Posted by J Richards on October 15, 2006, 11:57 PM | #

Northerner,

I removed Razib’s actual name from your comment; please do not post it.  He is the webmaster of a site that posts a lot of interesting but politically incorrect information, and he has a number of leftist haters that want to physically harm him, which we don’t want. 

In my first entry, I posted a link to him being featured at the leftist extremist group, onepeoplesproject’s website, but in retrospect realize that this was the wrong thing to do, for which I am sorry, and am glad that Guessedworker removed the link.

59

Posted by Northerner on October 16, 2006, 12:42 AM | #

J Richards:

I’ll respect your request, though I believe razib is in no physical danger due to the information being known.

60

Posted by Nick Tamiroff on October 16, 2006, 01:56 AM | #

Rawilson-after the fourth and fifth reading of your post;I rescind my apology,to a certain extent.A QUESTION- J ust who the hell are “Palestinians”,and what lands are theirs by heredity or common culture? Arabic {Muslim} cultures have been imposing their beliefs on White Europeans for seven centurys,and have no adversity to mayhem ,murder,rape ,beheadings,tribute,or suppression of other religions.These camel-fucking,pederast,honor-killing,bearded ragheads who wish nothing but ill for all not “blessed by Allah” should not be allowed in ANY White culture,let alone be allowed to immigrate.Deal with it mate-you got rag-heads,we got beaners.

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Posted by Rawlinson on October 16, 2006, 02:16 AM | #

Oh Ziv, BTW—I know this has been mentioned here in some form before, but your little “mass miscegenation experiment” already has an on-site laboratory.  It’s called “Brazil.”  Perhaps nowhere else is intermarriage and blurring of racial/ethnic identity so encouraged, as in Brazil.  Now, Brazil has some appealing aspects, but a “vigorous nation” it ain’t.  Its poverty and crime rates are some of the worst in the Western Hemisphere and in the entire world.  Sao Paolo is such a violent place that it seems to be in a permanent state of war, between rival gangs and other types of factions.  Obviously, race-mixing in the capital of miscegenation has not had the successful result you seem to fantasize about.

Another thing you might find interesting Ziv, regarding ideals of beauty in Brazil.  Even though Brazil is the world capital of race-mixing, its ideal of beauty is very much, defined as White and European.  Brazil in fact is one of the few countries that has consistently required that its top fashion and swimsuit models be White and European—practically every icon of beauty in Brazil is basically European-looking, often blonde.  Those who aren’t European are practically barred from the cover of magazines in Brazil.  I myself will admit that many of Brazil’s mixed-race and part-African women are quite gorgeous, with exotic features that stand out in many respects, but that’s not the point here—the point is the standard of beauty *as Brazilians themselves define it*. 

And for the mixed-race Brazilians themselves, they define their most gorgeous women pretty much as European, in fact northern European.  Brazil’s top model is a goddess named Gisele Bundchen (who’s a standard of beauty no matter what angle you’re coming from—http://heinars.photosite.com/~photos/tn/371_1024.ts1099046396651.jpg ).  It’s not only Brazil that obsesses over her, no less than the Rolling Stone declared her “the most beautiful girl in the world.”  Even if you don’t know much about her biography, you can make a pretty good guess from her last name—Gisele is German, and in fact her parents come from Germany.  Thus, the Brazilians themselves have embraced as their icon of beauty, a Teutonic beauty straight out of the German heartland. 

This should be telling you something, and above all it should tell you that even in the world’s most mixed-race society, it’s not natural or even “advantageous,” however you define it, for distinct ethnic groups to hybridize.  I’m not against individuals from different races meeting and marrying if love pushes them in that direction, but as a sort of generalized government-ordained policy to encourage, or a supposed “fad” to push in the culture (as MTV does for example), it’s an incredibly stupid and often even damaging idea.  It’s ruining Britain entirely.  In the UK, White women are inculcated with a deep-rooted hatred of their fellow Whites, with some of the lowest birth rates for Whites in all of Europe and among the highest Black-White rates of childbearing.  It’s a poorly-kept secret among the African and Jamaican immigrant communities that White British woman poot-tang is easily had, even for Blacks who are ugly and certifiable losers.  For example: http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006420583,00.html
that Eversson Banda guy had HIV and is just plain butt-ugly, but he managed to convince scores of naive, deluded British White women into sleeping with him, getting AIDS in the process themselves (and probably spreading it to a few British men, too).  This cult of White self-hatred and pro-miscegenation is literally killing Whites in Britain, it’s toxic and it’s combined with government policy that is taxing Britons to death to pay for the war in Iraq and other neo-globe-trotting foreign policies.  So Britain is slowly perishing, and White Britons leave the island in hopes of continuing some semblance of White Western culture elsewhere, on the Continent.  This is the price of miscegenation Alon, perhaps the reason you’re so keen in pushing it.

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Posted by Rnl on October 16, 2006, 02:18 AM | #

Are you advocating eugenics?

Not at all. For one, Breeding Between the Lines is not an instruction manual. I encourage people to marry whomever they want. Secondly, eugenics historically argued for the exact opposite of interracial unions. Racist eugenicists were attempting to create some kind of “pure” race. Breeding Between the Lines shows why this type of institutionalized inbreeding is a very bad idea.

http://www.breedingbetweenthelines.com/questions.htm

Ziv’s “not at all” is false. He is, clearly, advocating a certain kind of eugenics. Interracial unions, he says, give you better children on average than monoracial unions. Mixed-race kids are likely to be smarter, more physically attractive, less malodorous, etc. He is not advocating institutionalized selective breeding, but he is advocating better breeding leading to better (“well-born”) human results.

The eugenicists did not contend that within-race mating would invariably produce better White offspring. They knew that a smart White man and a smart White woman could produce a dumb White child, though they thought such a result would be rare. Their advice, on this elementary point, was formally no different from Alon Ziv’s. The eugenicists believed, inter alia, that Whites were wise to marry other Whites, and Alon Ziv believes we would be wise to marry non-Whites. Both pieces of advice constitute recipes for good children; the only material difference lies in the respective ingredients.

Ziv’s claim that he is not advocating any form of eugenics rests solely on the fact that “eugenics historically argued for the exact opposite of interracial unions.” In other words, the eugenicists were bad Whites (“racists”). Ziv is not a bad White. His recipe for optimal children is different from the eugenicists’ old recipe, and therefore (he says) he is not a eugenicist. That’s wrong.

If Ziv is correct in his analysis, mixed-race people will in the future form a stronger, smarter, more attractive, and more pleasant smelling breed of humans. They will on average be _better_ than deficient non-mixed Whites. In comparison with non-mixed Whites they will be a master race, able to jump higher and think faster and copulate more skillfully. They won’t be “pure,” but they will be superior. If you want superior kids, interracial marriage is your best option, and science, as interpreted by Alon Ziv, proves it.

Ziv’s evidence may be faulty and his political motives are certainly suspect. It’s important, however, to stress as well that he _is_ a eugenicist—perhaps not a good eugenicist, but a eugenicist nevertheless. As a eugenicist, an advocate of breeding well for optimal human results, he cannot legitimately invoke the tired clichés of anti-racism against those who propose a different recipe for genetic success.

***

Northerner wrote:

Can’t believe you didn’t mention Ziv’s favorite movie is “Annie Hall”.

I confess (or boast) that I’ve never seen it.

63

Posted by Rawlinson on October 16, 2006, 02:38 AM | #

Nick, you truly are a head-case and need professional help—why don’t you bother reading at least one of these posts in full, then maybe you might have one small clue what I’m talking about.  It’s called basic reading comprehension skills.  I very much *do not* like Palestinians or any other Arabs being in Western countries—their culture is not compatible with that which we have in the West, which would have been obvious to anyone who actually read my post, which you clearly have not.  My point is, they have their own native territories, and I’m fine with them staying on them.  A truce IOW—they stay out of our lands, we stay out of theirs. 

As should have also been clear from my post, overall I also admire the Jewish people and their own achievements, but I and many others seriously dislike the tendency of a significant fraction of Jewish tribalists in the USA and other Western countries to encourage things like miscegenation, and to make it socially unacceptable for Whites in our own countries to self-associate and stand up for our own kind.  Obviously as I said, many Gentiles have participated in this stupidity, but a significant number of the most radical people pushing affirmative action, race-mixing and the denial of Whites’ right to self-associate, has been coming from Jewish intellectuals here who—very clearly—wish to deny European-extracted North Americans the same rights that they reserve for themselves in Israel.  If they want to be tribalist in such a way, that’s fine for them—in Israel, not here. 

As for your incendiary comments about the Palestinian people—the whole sheep fscking, pederasty stuff—as I said, Nick, you SERIOUSLY need professional help.  You sound like a guy projecting your own fantasies on others.  Furthermore, that sort of derision of such a broad class of people is juvenile and entirely inappropriate for a forum of this nature, where we actually try to debate on some intellectual level.

In case you didn’t notice, none of us here have engaged in such idiot stereotyping of the Jewish people, nor have we lambasted them as a whole—we, instead, lambaste the specific hypocrisy of a certain powerful cohort among their members.  Overall, I suspect that I and most others here respect their achievements, even if we react angrily against the way so many have undermined basic elements of the ethnicity and culture of rival “tribes.”  You, OTOH, arrogantly and stupidly cast grade-school gross-out accusations at the Palestinian people.  (And yes, they are a people Nick—any such “self-identification” of people is arbitrary, “British” or “Italian” or “Australian” is just as arbitrary as “Palestinian,” but when such a collective mass of people identify themselves as such, that means the identification is real.) 

I don’t like the means that many Palestinians have used to fight, suicide-bombing cafes with Israeli teenagers in Tel Aviv is reprehensible and not winning them any sympathy.  OTOH, I can see how the Palestinian people as a whole would be pissed about what happened in 1967 in particular—they were basically ethnically cleansed from their homes and colonized in their own lands, despite having actually been a relatively civilized, urbane, cultured people in the region.  I certainly have NO RESPECT for what the Israelis just did in Lebanon, killing thousands of peace-loving, civilized Lebanese Arabs (many of them Christian) in response to their own military’s blunder allowing their soldiers to be captured on the Lebanese border. 

I actually DO believe that the Jewish peoples of the world have a right to their own state, and (perhaps a shock to you) I actually believe that Israel has a right to exist and flourish, including the 1948 borders and even a few of the underpopulated territories gained in 1967, which the Israelis developed.  However, quite a few within Israel have plans for a “Greater East-West Israel” that is nothing less than mass ethnic cleansing of Palestinians—using American tax dollars and weapons.  Sorry, but I suspect that 90+% of Americans don’t want their tax dollars to be used to support an intra-Semitic tribal war in the Mideast that only drags us in along with it. 

You see Nick, the views of all of us here on this board are quite complex and we in general respect the Jewish people and wish them well, especially within their homeland of Israel but in general as well.  But we all have in common, a strong intention to protect and further our own ethnic civilization as White Europeans, as—speaking objectively—one of the world’s great civilizations bar none, with exponents like Pasteur, Bach, Beethoven, Newton, Galileo, Heisenberg, Kant, Bocaccio, Chaucer and Cervantes to our credit, among many others.  We are vigorous in our defense of our own civilization, just as Jewish people are (rightfully) vigorous in defense of their own, and we strongly criticize those, of any ethnicity, who commit acts and push cultural norms so obviously ruinous and damaging to our very integrity.  That’s called nuance, Nick, and that’s the heart of this discussion.

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Posted by Al Ross on October 16, 2006, 04:10 AM | #

Rawlinson is, of course, right to mention Brazil as an example of the practical application of Ziv’s anti-White pipedream.However, as I pointed out in a post at Friedrich Braun’s excellent Civic Platform blog, not all of Brazil is languishing in miscegenation-engendered lassitude. The state of Santa Catarina is 92% White and, as expected, boasts both the highest per capita income and the lowest crime rate.

65

Posted by Zimmerman on October 16, 2006, 05:49 AM | #

Great stuff Rawlinson, your point of Brazil idolising a pure German as the ideal beauty blows Ziv right out of the water.

But do you guys honestly think Ziv is gonna be truthful on these forums? You think he’s gonna say, “yeah guys, you got me. I really have a deep hatred for Europeans, and even if my book results in only a few hundred white woman shacking up with Negroes, then I have helped the cause.” Its like Survivor, he’s playing the game. He’s not gonna take off his game face.

To see a beauty like Heidi Klum smiling and happy with her ugly reject child, man that is sad and depressing on a profound level. I saw those pictures last night and have been feeling ill all day today.

66

Posted by John Thomas on October 16, 2006, 08:10 AM | #

Apart from the ‘Seal’/Heidi Klum progenyclearly displaying a dsygenic, savage facial countenance, another well publicised example can be seen in the child of the well-known Britiish shameless whore (for that is what she is) ‘Jordan’ and the Trinidadian soccer-player Dwight Yorke.
  The child was born blind with mental defiency, symptoms f the disharmonious, dsygenic assortment of the two sets of radically differing genes can be clearly read on the child’s face.

67

Posted by Fred Scrooby on October 16, 2006, 08:46 AM | #

Alon Ziv is a foot soldier in a tribal war Jews are waging against Euros, and his “book” is a weapon in that war.  That’s it.  That’s all that’s going on.  Never in a billion years would he marry a Bantu woman, wish his children to marry Bantus, or advocate intermarriage and procreation with Bantus for Israel’s Jewish population.  He tries to wiggle out of being scrutinized by saying his recommendations are intended for all people.  Since he knows that Jews are, by and large, immune to such recommendations and Euros, by and large, clearly aren’t he’s being not just dishonest but dishonest in an especially slimy, nauseating way.  There’s no science going on here.  There’s tribal war.  Not science.

I agree with the commenter who said not long ago at this site there should be an attempt to prosecute professional genocide advocates like Prof. Ziv under Nuremberg-type charges:  isn’t it true that some, such as the theoretician Alfred Rosenberg, were condemned at Nuremberg not for killing anyone but for advocating genocide in direct or indirect language?  Rosenberg was hanged, if I’m not mistaken, for his writings which were considered to have advanced the cause of genocide.  Well, professional genocide advocates like this Prof. Ziv also advance the cause of genocide through their writings.  Let them also face juridical penalties:  wasn’t the precedent set at Nuremberg?

68

Posted by MaliceZiv on October 16, 2006, 09:06 AM | #

Fred:

“Let them also face juridical penalties:  wasn’t the precedent set at Nuremberg?”

You are certainly correct and your reasoning is sound.  Unfortunately, the current global establishment supports Ziv’s acts of aggression and wishes for the same outcome.  Therefore, Ziv is safe from indictment under the present international regime.

We can hope that in some point in the future, if Ziv is unsuccessful and western nations regain control over their destinies, legally convened tribunals will indict him for incitement to genocide.

However, if this fantasy utopia comes to pass in Ziv’s lifetime, we can assume that he will be, like Solomon Morel, safe in Israel, and, like Morel, attempts at extradition will be met with a stony refusal.

In many cases Justice is, in fact, not only blind, but deaf and dumb as well.

69

Posted by Al Ross on October 16, 2006, 11:28 AM | #

Ziv’s book seems to be of the ‘tribal war-cry’ category and this genre is best exemplified by Theodore Kaufman’s hateful book, ‘Germany Must Perish’. The reason Germany had to perish was because the indigenous people had the temerity to wish for a country of their own,  and entertained hopes for an existence without the undermining presence of vicious racially alien predators and parasites.

70

Posted by Fred Scrooby on October 16, 2006, 12:21 PM | #

Al, I agree completely the two books are part and parcel of, fundamentally, the exact same tribal warfare campaign.

71

Posted by Voice on October 16, 2006, 12:28 PM | #

My only question for US based MR contributors is when should we expect the PBS special?

Next spring would be lovely…

72

Posted by Fred Scrooby on October 16, 2006, 12:54 PM | #

LOLOL@Voice!  Yes, this crowd and PBS certainly work hand-in-glove coördinating their efforts, don’t they ...  I’d say some time next spring sounds about right for the coming out and hyping of the inevitable PBS special ...  I’ll be sure not to miss it ... hey no kidding, I’m serious ... I’m marking my calendar right now ... right this minute in fact ... Sure ... Absolutely ... Without fail ............ Definitely ..............................

73

Posted by John Thomas on October 17, 2006, 07:59 AM | #

‘Seal’ has that particular cast of countenance that on a black man, would make one think twice about opening the front door to him.
In his facial and bodily features can be read aggression, ruthlessness, brutality and deceitfulness, it is no surprise to note that ‘Seal’ before he made it in the ‘pop industry’ had a string of criminal convictions, including an association with prostitution.The dark black marks on his face are, I believe, the result of an acid attack on him.
I would not be at all surprised to learn that ‘Seal’ is descended from the Benin people, an African tribe noted for extreme brutality and ferocity.

74

Posted by Guessedworker on October 17, 2006, 08:06 AM | #

His real name is Henry Olusegun Olumide Adeola Samuel.  He is descended from Adebisi Samuel, a Nigerian immigrant, and Francis Samuel, an Afro-Brazilian immigant.  Samuel must be a common name in Christian West Africa.

75

Posted by Englander on October 17, 2006, 12:00 PM | #

I have heard different rumours about the marks on Seal’s face, but the truth is that they’re scars from lupus which he had as a child.

Are the comments about his criminal past based on any sound information? He might look tough but some of the biographical information I have read on him points to him being a well-functioning member of society. Apparently he has a degree in architecture and has worked as an electrical engineer. Doesn’t sound like something your average negro criminal is capable of.
His music is also very pleasant.

I don’t like seeing him with Heidi but he doesn’t seem to be as bad as he looks.

76

Posted by joker on October 17, 2006, 03:41 PM | #

According to A Ludovici
  “It is not a hundred years since the important truth gradually began to emerge — and ninety-nine and nine-tenths per cent of educated people still do not know it — that physical traits, organs, and parts of organs, bones and parts of bones, endocrine glands, body cells and blood cells, may be inherited independently from either parent; so that if parents are disparate, as most parents are today, their child or children are mosaics of odd parts, a confusion of more or less badly adjusted, badly proportioned, badly balanced, bodily components, and cannot, except by a fluke, form a harmonious whole.”

Need I say more?

77

Posted by Nick Tamiroff on October 17, 2006, 05:11 PM | #

Rawilson-I see once more I have been taken to the woodshed by a P iled H igh and D eep.However,I still don’t have an answer as to just who are “Palestinians”? Isrealis have far more right to that geography than any diverse collection of nomadic rag-heads whose base language encompasses some 60+ dialects,and never so much as PLANTED a fig tree.Yes,I am crude,rude,and show inadequate respect for my intellectual “bettors”,but have paid my dues over 67 years,never had to go to jail or counseling,served my country,worked in more countries than most can name,survived three bouts with cancer,and can still piss of the Pope.Because my mind-set is obviously different than yours, maybe you would be willing to send me,say $25,000,so I can get your proscribed “help”? Fragile egos are as bad as wasted minds-learn to deal with the other 90% of the world!And let me know when you take your first combat wound.P.S. ,you may live to piss on my grave,but I’ll be there to welcome you-Cheers!

78

Posted by J Richards on October 17, 2006, 07:47 PM | #

Rawlinson,

It is true that white beauty occupies the top rung in Brazil, but Gisele Bundchen is a bad example.  Fashion models generally do not cater to public tastes, and, with few exceptions, are best not mentioned if one is to cite examples of beautiful women.  Gisele had to have a nose job because her nose looked bad.  She also got breast implants to improve upon her flat-chested look.  She has masculine and rugged facial features and does not have a feminine physique.

If you wanted a cite an example of white Brazilian beauty, Luciana Vendramini is a good example; see also this, this, this and this

Regarding your example of black HIV-positive fiend Everson Banda who infected several women with HIV, published photos of his white lovers reveal them to be overweight/obese; one woman was even described as having lost her virginity to Banda, i.e., the woman was probably unattractive and did not interest white men.  It is not white British women that are easy for black men, but the obese and unattractive ones that are.  Black men generally tend to have the lowest standards when it comes to women, and some have virtually no standards, which is not difficult to understand given the looks of black women.  Also consider that unattractive low IQ women from a low socioeconomic background would be making a better reproductive choice by breeding with criminal-type men given that they would generally not be able to produce sons who would have what it takes to be successful in life via an education or talent.  Therefore, letting in blacks into Western nations is to have an increase in mulatto offspring, mostly as a result of black men pairing with unattractive and low status white women.

79

Posted by Michael Dupont on October 18, 2006, 11:13 PM | #

“Rosenberg was hanged, if I’m not mistaken, for his writings which were considered to have advanced the cause of genocide.”

I think you mean Julius Streicher. And he never advocated killing Jews in his newspaper.

80

Posted by Third Root of Unity on October 19, 2006, 02:32 AM | #

For those of you interested in brazilian girls I would recommend Luize Altenhofen.

81

Posted by John Thomas on October 19, 2006, 08:04 AM | #

Englander,
          Don’t believe those ‘puff-pieces’ and potted biographies issued by the PR departments of record companies, to say that they ‘embroider the truth’ is an understatement.

82

Posted by wjg on October 20, 2006, 07:24 PM | #

This whole thread just reminds me just why Ziv’s tribe (hopefully that doesn’t violate Mr. Richard’s admonition to not scare away the good Rabbi) treats us with such contempt.  They propose another strategy for our destruction - in as obvious a fashion as is possible this side of Theodore Kaufman - and we respond like this is a Toast Master’s meeting.

Un-f’ing-believable.

Then again we might “prove” by this discussion that maybe, just maybe, the White Race has a legitimate claim to survival.  Of course even entering in the discussion at all puts us in the same effeminate defensive posture conservatives are now famous for.

83

Posted by JB on October 20, 2006, 11:53 PM | #

Alon Ziv:

Our diversity is a gift, and to keep ourselves separated and compartmentalized would be to waste that gift.

Diversity is good so… let’s destroy it.

That’s the kind of dumb nonsense I’d expect from some “anti-racist” street thug in the ARA, not from an author who has a few university degrees but then again anti-white propagandists have no serious arguments anyway.

Fred Scrooby:

I call on you, Professor, to tell Jews specifically, diaspora Jews and Israeli Jews, they have to marry and have children only with Nigerian Negroes, Mexicans, Chinamen, and Moslem Moroccans.

not to forget australian aboriginals

84

Posted by Rnl on October 21, 2006, 12:22 PM | #

Alon Ziv wrote:

Since you [i.e. Richards] are a member of a website that advocates the preservation of a single race I’m not surprised that you don’t agree with my thesis.

This is a telling remark, as JJR Apologist pointed out earlier.

Intention is important in both law and ethics. Ziv himself identifies two opposing positions on the White Question. One side favors White preservation and the other side doesn’t. He knows that he is on the anti-preservation side of this debate, so he is not surprised that preservationists disagree with the anti-preservation thesis proposed in his book. His anti-preservationism is conscious. He is not naively investigating the effects of miscegenation, unaware of miscegenation’s real-world consequences in an era of mass immigration. He knows the consequences and expects criticism from Whites who want their people to survive.

***

[The execution of the Romanovs] symbolized the end of centuries of Russian history, so that it can be compared only to the execution of Charles I in England or Louis XVI in France. It would seem that representatives of an insignificant ethnic minority should keep as far as possible from this painful action, which would reverberate in all history. Yet what names do we meet? The execution was personally overseen by Yakov Yurovsky who shot the Tsar; the president of the local Soviet was Beloborodov (Vaisbart); the person responsible for the general administration in Ekaterinburg was Shaya Goloshchekin. To round out the picture, on the wall of the room where the execution took place was a distich from a poem by Heine (written in German) about King Balthazar, who offended Jehovah and was killed for the offense.

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/tsar_1.htm

The author of the preceding paragraph is the mathematician Igor Shafarevich. If the Russian Tsar and his Russian family were to be murdered, Shafarevich argues, they should have been murdered by other Russians. Jews should have kept as far as possible from this terrible event in Russian history, which would have such profound repercussions for the Russian people. Yet they didn’t.

The principle is relevant here. If Whites are to breed and race-replace ourselves out of existence, we should do it of our own accord, without any helpful advice and assistance from Jews. Our coming non-existence, if it is indeed coming, is _our_ decision, not theirs. Someone named Alon Ziv should keep as far as possible from the question, and he shouldn’t write a book promoting the alleged benefits of White self-annihilation. If there are real benefits, we should discover them ourselves.

Any Jew who violates this principle shouldn’t be surprised if he gets some verbal anti-Semitism in return. No one begrudges Ziv his right to evaluate candy bars or review moronic movies. But on the subject of our survival, he should keep quiet.

85

Posted by wjg on October 21, 2006, 01:00 PM | #

RNL,

Excellent comments but it seems that many at MR think this Ziv should be debated.  The only debate should be where in the pantheon of Jewish scheming this latest effort falls.  Whenever we see a member of the master race in the future and he is not in the arms of some hominid as diverse as a congoid or australoid - with several little mongrels in tow - we need to remind them of their hypocrisy.

Everything Ziv says needs to be applied to his tribe and only his tribe.  Let’s see if these liars conform.

86

Posted by Guessedworker on October 21, 2006, 01:54 PM | #

Rnl,

Brilliant.  But you are forgetting Chutzpah.

87

Posted by Daedalus on October 21, 2006, 08:15 PM | #

Can’t say I have ever been impressed by the “dynamism” of the Dominican Republic.

88

Posted by Rnl on October 22, 2006, 01:29 AM | #

wjg wrote:

The only debate should be where in the pantheon of Jewish scheming this latest effort falls.

But not everyone agrees that there is a “pantheon of Jewish scheming” (nice phrase, by the way), and many sincere European nationalists, like Faye, believe the issue should be ignored. They would not be interested in any discussion of the racial motives that undoubtedly inspired Ziv’s book. Many of the IQ racialists are the same. We must accept that.

Issues have to be addressed on different levels and to different audiences. Personally I wouldn’t care if miscegenation really could produce a superior breed of human, as Ziv claims. But since nonracialist Whites might care, it’s good to know that Ziv’s factual case—if evaluated dispassionately, without overt reference to his motives—turns out to be false.

89

Posted by Elan Viz on October 23, 2006, 09:02 AM | #

What about Mr. Obama of Illinois?  He is a perfect example of the theory.  He is far superior to any unmixed politician; in his first term as senator, he is a legitimate Presidential candidate!  He was talked about as a Presidential contender even before getting elected to office! 

Look, his mixed background gives him all the advantages.  Every time a white woman looks at him, or hears his voice, she goes into immediate orgasm.  Here, Obama is far superior even to the other mixed race sex symbol, Benjamin Bratt.  Confronted with Obama’s superior masculine charisma and personal force, white men collapse into groveling, feminine submission.  It is therefore only natural that this superior specimen of mixed race humanity be the future leader of the United States, and that unmixed whites pay homage to him.

Now, the inadequate, feeble white men here will attempt to argue that Obama’s political rise is the product of an alien establishment that worships people of color and actively promotes miscegenation.  You will point to the fawning, Soviet-style monopolized coverage of Obama, which treat him as the flawless second coming of Christ, rivaled only by the great and superior Tiger Woods.  In your desperation, you will point out that the highly ethnically inbred CONSERVATIVE political pundit David Brooks has recently editorialized “Run Obama Run”, proving that both wings of America’s one party system have bought into the totalitarian propaganda machine of inculcating into a brainwashed America that Obama is the “New American Man.”  You will therefore argue, as your unsatisfied women swoon to the tone and timbre of Obama’s richly deep masculine mixed race voice, that Obama’s political rise is an artificial construct of an utterly corrupt system that wishes to make a biracial “African-American” – with no real credentials of any kind – into the showpiece of the mongrelized nation that they envision for your future.

To which I say: no.  All these facts are merely more evidence of Obama’s obvious physical superiority.  The mass media have no agenda; they are the honest purveyors of unvarnished truth.  If they have elevated Obama, it is merely because they realize that his multiracialism makes him a demigod, a veritable Titan towering over you mere unmixed and pathetic, pale mortals.  That a “conservative” like Brooks fawns over, and promotes, a far-left liberal Democrat has nothing to do with Brooks’ own ethnicity and agenda; it is merely that the honest and upstanding Brooks has succumbed to Obama’s superior physical presence and masculine power.  There is no conspiracy to elevate a mediocrity to the highest levels merely because the establishment approves of his ancestry and what his represents.  No, that is your jealousy talking.

Yes, indeed, come election day, 2008, you all, with heads bowed low in humble submission, will join your eager women in casting your vote for the next President of the USA – Superman Obama!

90

Posted by Fred Scrooby on October 23, 2006, 09:30 AM | #

Brilliant, Elan Viz!  I was going to post something here or at The Civic Platform making exactly the points you make — that Obama is a one-hundred-percent media-created, media-driven phenomenon being pushed and hyped from the top by the usual media-manipulating suspects — but I was going to say it straightforwardly.  Your choice of satire for getting the point across was much better.  Good comment!

91

Posted by Bo Sears on October 23, 2006, 12:04 PM | #

When US Senator Barack Obama announced on an American TV Sunday morning talk show yesterday that he was considering running for the presidency in 2008, he sealed his fate.

Everything he does now will be judged in light of that and, I assure you, the Clintonistas well know how to deal with first term US Senators who display such ambition too soon. Without executive experience and with only two years’ national senatorial experience, Obama will be cut down to size so quickly it’ll make heads spin.

It shows how bright he is not to realize that the media excitement was about his announcement, not about the wonders of an Obama presidency. He just gave up 12 months of free publicity for 30 minutes of national TV yesterday.

Senators Biden, Levin, and Clinton are not impressed with this youngster, and he will gradually be edged out. All he really had going for him was an excellent speech at the national Democratic convention two years ago. He’s authored no substantial federal legislation, uncovered no national scandal, and carried out no major oversight investigation.

He’ll be gone politically by the end of 2007, never to return, unless he adopts the Harold Stassen tactic.

He spoke much too soon yesterday.

++++++++++

On a related note, there is something strange about Senator Obama and that is his mother’s story. Obama is great on bragging up his father (a Kenyan economist who promptly abandoned his mother when Obama was born), but he is very silent on his mother. She’s just a “white woman.” It’s a little odd that he maintains silence about his mother’s national origins, ethnicity, regional origins, and ancestral roots, while puffing his father’s roots.

We always get suspicious when we see such an obvious discrepancy. We would enjoy hearing from anyone with information on his mother. As a matter of fact, it appears that it was her parents who reared, housed, and fed Obama, but there is a good deal of mystery about his childhood for one so prominent. He’s apparently never thanked his grandparents for caring for him while bragging up his father who abandoned him. Kind of the Halle Berry story.

++++++++++

In a way, he is the ideological opposite of Tiger Woods who boasts all his ancestors. Obama believes in the “one drop” rule and disclosed that in his public discourse with Bishop Tutu. I’m not sure how meaningful that is to this web site, but it is a huge difference in attitude in America.

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Posted by rustymason on October 23, 2006, 12:27 PM | #

“We would enjoy hearing from anyone with information on his mother.”

We know one thing for sure: she wasn’t very smart.

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Posted by rustymason on October 23, 2006, 12:37 PM | #

“This whole thread just reminds me just why Ziv’s tribe (hopefully that doesn’t violate Mr. Richard’s admonition to not scare away the good Rabbi) treats us with such contempt.  They propose another strategy for our destruction - in as obvious a fashion as is possible this side of Theodore Kaufman - and we respond like this is a Toast Master’s meeting.  Un-f’ing-believable.”

It astrounds me, also.  Overall, we are too polite—way too polite.  Everywhere one looks, the intellectual Whites distance themselves from the mainstream and blue-collar Whites.  Yet, most of these intellectuals perceive themselves to be “radical rightests.”  Un-f’ing-believable.

94

Posted by Guessedworker on October 23, 2006, 12:41 PM | #

Wikipedia’s entry on Obama says:-

Obama writes in Dreams from My Father that one of his mother’s Kentucky ancestors “was rumored to have been a second cousin of Jefferson Davis”. This statement, itself neither proven nor disproven by genealogical investigation

That investigation into Shirley Ann Dunham’s background would appear to be this by one William Addams Reitwiesner.

As for her personality, one may judge from her marital choices that this was an unusual lady.  Here’s a story Obama told in Dreams of my Father, about a time she insisted on him and, apparently, a half-sister named Maya accompanying her to see the film Black Orpheus:-

About halfway through the movie, I decided that I’d seen enough,and turned to my mother to see if she might be ready to go. But her face, lit by the blue glow of the screen, was set in a wistful gaze. At that moment, I felt as if I were being given a window into her heart, the unreflective heart of her youth. I suddenly realized that the depiction of childlike blacks I was now seeing on the screen, the reverse image of Conrad’s dark savages, was what my mother had carried with her to Hawaii all those years before, a reflection of the simple fantasies that had been forbidden to a white, middle-class girl from Kansas, the promise of another life: warm, sensual, exotic, different.

Cruel to speak ill of the dead, I know.  But one wonders whether the reason why Obama speaks so little of ObamaMa is because she was mentally ill.

95

Posted by rustymason on October 23, 2006, 12:50 PM | #

The media and academia is controlled by the Jews—we will never gain respectability in the public mind, never.  In America, we will be a political minority in our lifetimes, guaranteed, in about 20 years.  Instead of wasting our time trying to fine-tune the latest piece of shite from the Chosen Ones, we should be formulating strategies on how to survive.

96

Posted by Wunderbar on October 23, 2006, 04:02 PM | #

Are there no rich whites with WN sympathies who can start buying media companies? That is the best strategy. Think how much easier it would be with the mass media on our side. Or, second strategy would be creating online video media company. Its too late for the older generation, but aiming at under 30’s, who will in 10 yrs time will be in policy-forming job positions.

Another thing I was wondering, are there perhaps more of the Chosen than we realise. I mean they could have European surnames and wed ever know. There could be alot more of them working in government and media than we realise.

97

Posted by rustymason on October 23, 2006, 05:39 PM | #

Controlling the media is important for the Jews because the media controls culture which in turn controls politics.  It even has a strong influence on religion. 

But ask Ted Turner, Mel Gibson, and Thomas Edison what it’s like dealing with Jews over media properties—either one fights to the death or one will lose.  No one with any money is going to risk taking up the White cause now, I don’t think.  They all are safe in their walled villages or in die Schweiz.  Maybe a White Knight will emerge to fight for us but it would be foolish to hope for it.  More intellectual energy across the Internet and the university systems should be planning for what to do when the inevitable happens.

98

Posted by allotmentkeeper on October 23, 2006, 07:02 PM | #

rustymason - one ‘rich white with WN sympathies’ who has used his capital and influence to start media companies is William Regnery II of The Occidental Quarterly and The National Policy Institute, but afaik he’s about th only one.

I think it would be worthwhile posting a few book titles for people doubtful of the claim of Jewish ethnic animus and social-political influence to check out and see for themselves. What can seem a settled and old issue for some is a baffling contradiction to everything they’ve ever been told for some others.

I think first of Kevin Macdonald’s trilogy especially “Culture of Critique”; John Murray Cuddihy’s “The Ordeal of Civility” and “No Offense: Civil Religion and Protestant Taste”; Joel Kotkin’s “Tribes”; Ben Stein’s “The View from Sunset Boulevard”; Benjamin Ginsberg’s “Fatal Embrace”; Michael Medved’s “Hollywood vs. America”; Israel Shahak’s “Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel” and “Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years”; and Yuri Slezkine’s “Jewish Century”...

There’s also the website Jewish Tribal Review and their book “When Victims Rule”...

Perhaps others who are already converted can offer some more?

100

Posted by Andy on October 23, 2006, 07:13 PM | #

When US Senator Barack Obama announced on an American TV Sunday morning talk show yesterday that he was considering running for the presidency in 2008, he sealed his fate.

Everything he does now will be judged in light of that and, I assure you, the Clintonistas well know how to deal with first term US Senators who display such ambition too soon. Without executive experience and with only two years’ national senatorial experience, Obama will be cut down to size so quickly it’ll make heads spin.

It shows how bright he is not to realize that the media excitement was about his announcement, not about the wonders of an Obama presidency. He just gave up 12 months of free publicity for 30 minutes of national TV yesterday.

Senators Biden, Levin, and Clinton are not impressed with this youngster, and he will gradually be edged out. All he really had going for him was an excellent speech at the national Democratic convention two years ago. He’s authored no substantial federal legislation, uncovered no national scandal, and carried out no major oversight investigation.

He’ll be gone politically by the end of 2007, never to return, unless he adopts the Harold Stassen tactic.

He spoke much too soon yesterday.

  You’re dead on, Bo——The Lizard Queen is going tear Obama limb from limb.

101

Posted by Wunderbar on October 24, 2006, 06:22 AM | #

the “inevitable happens” ; what exactly are you referring to rustymason?

Media companies shouldn’t be marketed as ‘white’ - they should just start off with fairly objective neutral programming. The racial aspects of crime etc should be reported fully, and the unenlightened will soon start to see the real picture.

nationalvanguard.org is a good website to tell people about bc it doesn’t allow postings (which often degenerate to racist name-calling) and has some very good articles.

102

Posted by Wunderbar on October 24, 2006, 06:58 AM | #

Just had a look at the Occidental Quarterly online - looks pretty shit. But the NPI website looks good.

Instead of talking with no action, a yearly donation from all concerned American patriots could help the NPI to become a strong force. Imagine 100 000 patriots each donating a $1000 a year. That could get the ball rolling in creating some good online video media.

(Nope I won’t be investing, I’m not American. Anyway the country I’m most concerned about is Sweden. I hope to travel there next year. )

103

Posted by Fred Scrooby on January 03, 2007, 12:03 AM | #

I came across the following comment by Steven P. at another blog (a comment in which he explains his preference for avoiding the term “genocide” to designate what’s going on, in favor of “racial engineering experiments”).  At the end of his comment he includes definitions of what constitutes “genocide,” taken from the United Nations Genocide Convention (adopted 1948) and gives a list of “acts punishable” as genocide under the provisions of that Convention.  One glance at the definition and list of acts punishable will make crystal-clear to anyone Prof. Alon Ziv is potentially liable to prosecution: 

The term genocide, though accurate, is too strong.  Displacing a people against their will by flooding their lands with competing groups qualifies as a constructive section C genocide under Article 2 of the Genocide Convention of 1948.  A possible additional violation is forcible denial of group representation since whites — and only whites — aren’t allowed to organize as whites under penalty of soft-persecution for “racism.”

The problem is that most people assume all genocides are section A (killing) or B (terror) genocides because they associate the term with extreme violence.  So you talk about genocide and people look around for evidence of massive carnage, find none and conclude you’re being alarmist.  The only way around this is to bore them to tears by first discussing international treaties and the three non-vioent genocide categories [C (resource denial), D (mass sterilization) and E (child takings)].  Folks… this is too complicated.

Personally, I no longer use the term “genocide.”  Back when I used to, my wife picked up on it and started using it herself.  One day I watched as a leftie got her all defensive by telling her she was exaggerating.  I didn’t like that — watching her trying to justify her claim was painful.  She doesn’t know the details of the Genocide Convention of 1948 and besides, why should she?  I felt responsible for her embarassment because she trusts my choice of language.  I haven’t used the term “genocide” since.  I now use “racial engineering experiments on whites” — it isn’t only hard to argue with, but sounds so eerie and makes its proponents sound so evil that it’s practically a self-contained argument in and of itself.

Getting the terminology right is critical because all identity politics is grievance politics.  No grievance, no identity politics.  Ever heard blacks discussing group interests without invoking slavery?  Ever heard Jews discussing group interests without invoking the Holocaust?  Neither have I.

Genocide is our grievance. But we need the right terminology (label) to communicate it outside of our tiny circles.

Possible alternatives:

“racial engineering experiment”
“race replacement”
“reverse colonization”
“white dispossession” (source: Pat Buchanan)
“ethnic submersion” (source: Dalai Lama)
“cultural genocide” (source: Dalai Lama)
“soft genocide”
“slow motion genocide”
constructive section C genocide”
constructive violations of Article 2(c) of the Genocide Convention of 1948?

Examples:

“But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing racial engineering experiment against my people, white people, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.”

“But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of race replacement against my people, white people, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.”

“But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing constructive violations of Article 2(c) of the Genocide Convention of 1948 against my people, white people, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.”

(Note: “constructive” is a legal term that means “equivalent to.”)

GENOCIDE CONVENTION OF 1948

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1

The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

* (a) Killing members of the group;

* (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

* (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

* (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

* (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article 3

The following acts shall be punishable:

* (a) Genocide;

* (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

* (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

* (d) Attempt to commit genocide;

* (e) Complicity in genocide.

Article 4

Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Clearly a solid case can be made for prosecuting Prof. Ziv under Article 2, §§ c and d and possibly § b as well, and under all five sections of Article 3.  Furthermore, it’s inescapable that anyone promoting forced race-replacement of a community’s or nation’s traditional population through the imposition of excessive racially/ethnoculturally-incompatible immigration is potentially prosecutable under the same definitions and provisions as Prof. Ziv.

104

Posted by ben tillman on January 03, 2007, 01:33 AM | #

Yeah, well, I still use “genocide”.  See isthatlegal.org

I will take your point under advisement.

105

Posted by prosecutorial brute on January 03, 2007, 09:41 AM | #

I would certainly like to see Ziv charged, tried, convicted, and sentenced by a legally convened tribunal on charges of promoting genocide.

While that is, unfortunately, unlikely to occur, at least not in the foreseeable future, it would still be a productive exercise to draw up charges against Ziv (and others like him).  The utility would be in the educational and propaganda benefits, and to underscore the seriousness of the situation to those who may in the future wish to promote genocide themselves.

To be done effectively, this would require a person(s) with a legal background and/or someone very familiar with the processes and terminology of “crimes against humanity”-type prosecutions.

106

Posted by Fred Scrooby on January 03, 2007, 10:02 AM | #

I agree one thousand percent with Brute:  this specific tactic ought to be at the top of our side’s agenda.  Of course nothing will come of it ... in the immediate term.  But neither did any good come of organized Jewish efforts to race-replace Eurochristians ... in 1924.  They didn’t stop trying, but quietly toiled away day and night for decades ... 

Then came 1965. 

These things going on around us are in large part the results of years, nay decades of relentless hard work by dedicated activists.  The litigation-in-the-courts route has been astoundingly successful for the other side starting a hundred years ago.  Our side has been way too lax in pursuing this strategy.  We should start right now, and we should start with pressing genocide charges against Ziv specifically and anyone promoting race-replacement immigration:  charges exactly along the lines of the definition of genocide and list of offenses in the U.N. documents excerpted in the discussion above.

107

Posted by Fred Scrooby on January 03, 2007, 10:24 AM | #

“The utility would be in the educational and propaganda benefits, and to underscore the seriousness of the situation to those who may in the future wish to promote genocide themselves.”  (—Brute)

Of course, and included among the “educational and propaganda benefits” of such a prosecution is the fact well-known to modern experts in propaganda from the Bolsheviks to the Nazis to present-day Hollywood and organized Jewry to you-name-it:  the more you “name” something in public, the more you “pronounce” something publicly, the more matter-of-fact it seems.  We’re being crushed right now under all sorts of outrages, merely because they’ve been repeated, “named,” “pronounced” so much by the other side that everyone has come to accept them — a century-old propaganda technique.  Well, it’s time our side started naming, pronouncing, repeating a few ripostes for a change, and let everyone come to accept those.

108

Posted by crusading prosecutor brute on January 03, 2007, 11:25 AM | #

“We should start right now, and we should start with pressing genocide charges against Ziv specifically…”

Agreed.  What’s needed are three things initially: someone with the specific skills and/or training to produce a legally sound document, a place to which to house the document (MR?), and, lastly, people (including MR participants) willing to consistently advertise the existence of the document.

In that order.

109

Posted by prosecute ziv brute on January 03, 2007, 11:42 AM | #

See here:
http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/mil-2ai011029e.htm

This seems to be a format for such indictments.

110

Posted by Englander on January 03, 2007, 11:45 AM | #

The above-quoted comment by Steven P., about his wife getting into trouble trying to justify her use of the term ‘genocide’, reminds me that we really need a list of arguments that less-educated people (like myself) can learn or go back to in times of need to ensure that we can get our points across well. At the moment anyone who is concerned by MR issues must spend hours going through posts and comments to find the information he or she needs.  All of the most compelling pieces of information are terribly hard to find being mostly comments.
All this talent needs organizing so that others can make use of it.

111

Posted by Guessedworker on January 03, 2007, 12:09 PM | #

Englander,

Maybe the way to address your request is to grow a list of personal experiences in the form of reader comments on a dedicated thread that could be linked on the side bar under Important Issues heading, just as the Ziv post now is.

If you or anyone else thinks that would be worthwhile I will put up a post to kick it off.

On the Ziv question, I think a very careful examination of the issue by a legal mind is the first step.  There likely is a racial defensive benefit to be got out of propagandising the soft genocidalism involved, but no point in making this very strong claim without a pretty solid legal foundation.

I don’t know if ben would consider himself competent to address issues normally addressed in the (very liberal and self-evidently globalist) International Court of Justice.  But that’s the scale of things, and it’s a long way from our callow speculations.  Ben, in any case, has more legal knowledge than I, and at the very least I would want his view before we committed to commissioning and/or housing the relevant documentation.

112

Posted by Desmond Jones on January 03, 2007, 12:26 PM | #

Englander,

All you need is Darwin, the Descent of Man, Chapter VII - On the Races of Man, On the Extinction of the Races of Man.-

Extinction follows chiefly from the competition of tribe with tribe, and race with race. Various checks are always in action, serving to keep down the numbers of each savage tribe,- such as periodical famines, nomadic habits and the consequent deaths of infants, prolonged suckling, wars, accidents, sickness, licentiousness, the stealing of women, infanticide, and especially lessened fertility. If any one of these checks increases in power, even slightly, the tribe thus affected tends to decrease; and when of two adjoining tribes one becomes less numerous and less powerful than the other, the
contest is soon settled by war, slaughter, cannibalism, slavery, and absorption. Even when a weaker tribe is not thus abruptly swept away, if it once begins to decrease, it generally goes on decreasing until it becomes extinct.*

Mass migration, low fertility, stir and voila, extinction.

113

Posted by pondering thoughtful brute on January 03, 2007, 12:51 PM | #

“On the Ziv question, I think a very careful examination of the issue by a legal mind is the first step.”

Agreed.  There are a number of issues involved here, and a full analysis is needed.  I think the overall point is that the idea needs to be at least studied.

From a logical standpoint, miscgenationist propaganda would seem at least at first glance to be:

* (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

* (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

For example, one of the methods used by “Arabs” (or varying degrees of “purity”) to attack Negroes in the zone of North African-subSaharan African convergence is via rape of Negro women - particularly in cultures where group identity is determined by patrilineage.

Thus, not only are pureblooded Negroes being prevented from being produced in these nations (eg, Sudan, I believe is an example), but the hybrids produced are identified with the Arab strain.

Propaganda, particularly one-sided propaganda (and especially if said propaganda persists after the logical and factual flaws within it are made clear) can be viewed as a form of mental/emotional coercion.  Coupled with enforced integration you get:

” conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part…”

The basic problem here is one of political power and not of logic.  Take Saddam: he is certainly not the only leader on the world stage guilty of “war crimes”; but leaders of powerful nations who are beyond the hand of justice cannot be indicted.

Similarly, because the globalist elite support white dissolution, and encourage miscegenation involving whites, they can hardly be expected to agree that a person advocating their own philosophy is guilty of crimes against humanity.

Whatever input Ben can give will be helpful.  What we really need (and if Ben has any “behind the scenes” connections that can be helpful) is to find a “rightist” legal expert, with knowledge in this area, to examine the validity of this case.  It may be that they may say “yes, you have a point, but the practical reality is that it’s useless”, or he may say “the wording/interpretation of the wording is such that it only favors minority rights”, or he may say that the “interpretation is for punishment of actions, not words” - leaving open why Streicher was executed after WWII - , or he may declare the whole thing is too vague.  Or, he may agree that, while nothing practical can be done, the logic of the complaint stands, and it is valid and worthy of further analysis.

Who knows?  But there is no doubt that encouraging people to produce mixed-race children will decrease the production of pure-breds, and since “partial” destruction of a group, including “prevention of births” is CLEARLY written as part of the definition of genocide, it is difficult to understand how someone twisting facts to promote this is “innocent” of the attempt to decrease numbers of the targeted group.

At the very least, the issue needs to be examined and explained by an individual or individuals conversant with international law and international crimes tribunals.

So, yes let us get a professional examination of the issues.  Another option is to “hand off” the project to a “pro-white” group with a stronger connection to the sorts of professionals needed to examine this case. 

Does anyone know of any group, legal team, etc. that would be willing to adopt this project and invest the energies needed to ascertain whether or not the definitions of genocide as listed by international organizations can be construed as to include attempts to at least partially dissolve racial groups through admixture?

114

Posted by mcbrutey on January 03, 2007, 01:09 PM | #

” Ben, in any case, has more legal knowledge than I, and at the very least I would want his view before we committed to commissioning and/or housing the relevant documentation. “

Well, yes, we already stated that the first step would need to be having a lawyer look at the issue.  If the current structure of law is insufficient to cover “soft genocide” as you put it, then, obviously nothing more remains that to simply continue what has already been taking place on cyberspace (including this post and thread): a systematic deconstuction and refutuation of Ziv’s thesis, and an analysis of potential motives (for example, “malice” was cited in the original post as one possible motive).

With respect though to the question: does the author of this book himself realize that the “thesis” is subversive of group preservation, we need only look once again at what Ziv wrote:

“Since you are a member of a website that advocates the preservation of a single race I’m not surprised that you don’t agree with my thesis. “

In other words, Mr. Ziv states that he expects that a person interested in preserving a race would, normally, object to the content of his work.  Why would that be so?  Because, as mixing would alter the race, the thesis proposed works against the preservation of any single race.  That is clear, and it is equally clear, from the quote, that Mr. Ziv has an understanding that his thesis is not compatible with a desire to promote, and I quote: “the preservation of a single race.”

What is the antonym for “preservation?”

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Posted by Guessedworker on January 03, 2007, 01:39 PM | #

I really wonder about the chances of finding a rightist human rights lawyer!  Also, has there ever been a prosecution accepted for anything other than the hard definitions of genocide?  Trying to create precedent of any sort - never mind one of this nature - is a game for the very brave, the very certain or the very misguided, and potentially all three!

The reality is that 2 to 4-year legal battles fought all the way through Appeal without the benefit of public funding cost several hundred thousand if not millions of dollars - and that’s if one wins!  Lose and it’s a meltdown.

The only ways to raise the substantial funding are to find wealthy backers - something WN has consistently failed to do for forty years - or to successfully establish a donations-based fighting fund.  The latter might be possible if every single branch of WN was fully supportive and willing to appeal to its membership.  But no such support would be forthcoming without there being a damned good case in law.

If we agree at the outset to limit the objective to propaganda, and forego creating precedent, then the legal grounding can remain more speculative.  The problem of finding a fair-minded expert remains, however.

Paul Fromm might be a useful person to consult on the latter.

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Posted by Englander on January 03, 2007, 02:43 PM | #

Englander,

Maybe the way to address your request is to grow a list of personal experiences in the form of reader comments on a dedicated thread that could be linked on the side bar under Important Issues heading, just as the Ziv post now is.

If you or anyone else thinks that would be worthwhile I will put up a post to kick it off.

I think it would be worthwhile. For a start.
In my opinion, the very best writing on this subject (that I have found online) is happening in the comments section of this site. Many of the contributors are brilliant, and if I had half the knowledge they do I would be creating a polished website where such superbly articulated viewpoints would be sorted and easy to find. We need a pro-white super-site. Free of vulgarity and with very high standards. Something that ordinary people won’t be frightened of.
Just above this post are comments about funding for human rights trials. This and all other goals that we wish to see fulfilled rely on better public understanding of our position. It never ceases to amaze me how much talent there is in the pro-white movement, but at the same time I see little in the way of effort to really harness the power of the internet. Amren is probably the best that we have right now, but it could be better. It is still little more than a discussion blog (with some really great articles below the surface) and I feel that this format is only attractive to those already on our side, and those who are just as passionate about attacking us.

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Posted by properly grounded brute on January 03, 2007, 03:02 PM | #

“If we agree at the outset to limit the objective to propaganda, and forego creating precedent…”

Of course, no one here is actually expecting the case to be heard in any tribunal under the current multiculturalist global establishment.  Very limited objective.

“...then the legal grounding can remain more speculative.”

No, you would need a firm grounding even for a project restricted to education/propaganda.  All the “i’s” need to be dotted and all the “t’s” need to be crossed; this is not something to be done half-assed.  What you’d want is a case that COULD be presented to a fair tribunal, if one existed.  That there is no such tribunal to hear a properly constructed case would be yet another indictment of the system.

“The problem of finding a fair-minded expert remains, however.”

Agreed, and that’s why we are asking for assistance here.  Anyone know Fromm well enough so as to get a response from the fellow?

Here’s a point.  IF the case is worth pursuing, then an interested foundation (NPI??) could consider investing in it, with the idea that, not only would it be “doing the right thing”, but would allow the group in question to have publicity, etc.

If the case is in fact worthless, then, no one, even if they had the ability to pursue it, would do so.

The major question then is identifying any groups that would have the capacity for this project in its limited objective, and, if such exist, follow up with the proposal to see if it has any chance of success and if they are interested.

A preliminary examination by someone like Ben would be useful to see if there is anything here at all.

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Posted by Guessedworker on January 03, 2007, 04:58 PM | #

brute: Of course, no one here is actually expecting the case to be heard in any tribunal under the current multiculturalist global establishment.

But let’s evaluate the utility of a purely rhetorical “victory”.  Whereas the establishment of legal precedent would stop Zivism at source, the rhetorical approach leaves us in the same game as now - trying to get the word out.  It would be a new word, I admit, but the same old, narrow methodology.  We already know it’s not enough.

Precedent, should it be established, is an open road.  The human rights artistes use it continually to expand their reach.  It doesn’t take a genius to see that the acknowledgement that whites must be protected from deliberate attempts to advance genetic mixing opens the way to broader defences based on the ultimate guarantor of genetic preservation: land.

Law is better than rhetorics.  I would not wish to dictate from the outset that we have no real interest in it.  If the child can be sat on the back of the tiger, the next thing to see is how far it can ride.

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Posted by Al Ross on January 03, 2007, 06:54 PM | #

This gentleman might consider taking the case :

http://ianandersonadvocate.com/index.html

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on January 03, 2007, 07:01 PM | #

I think it’s worth doing regardless of prospects for success in the immediate term.  Those prospects are nil but every step by us in a forward direction chips, chips, chips away at the walls of our oppenents’ meticulously-constructed fortress.  When victory finally comes we or those to whom we’ll have passed the sacred baton will look back and say, “this is where our victory started; here is the seed from which it grew.”  The other side didn’t overthrow normalness and entire races in a day; neither shall we succeed overnight in undoing all the evil they’ve wrought.  But with patience and perseverence we shall prevail because truth, the only standard to which we repair, always prevails.

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Posted by ben tillman on January 04, 2007, 12:13 PM | #

“I don’t know if ben would consider himself competent to address issues normally addressed in the (very liberal and self-evidently globalist) International Court of Justice.”

I spent a week at the ICJ this fall but was not *before* the ICJ.  We were there for an arbitration, and our “judge” was a solicitor from the City of London who had selected the ICJ’s small courtroom as the venue.  And it was a splendid venue.  I would love to go back. 

Regarding my competence, I see it less as a matter of competence than as a matter of resources and reputation.  If you want someone to brief the issues, then I am your man, but I can’t set aside my other work to take on such a large project gratis.  And there is a lot to be said for the value of the prestige attending someone like the Ian Anderson mentioned by Al Ross. 

Having said all that, I doubt that a private party can institute criminal charges under the treaty.  Under Canada’s genocide law, not even a prosecutor can level charges; the proceeding has to be initiated by a bureaucrat in the central government.

This sounds like a fun project, but it’s just one of many unfunded legal activism projects that I would love to pursue.  At this point, I am inclined to focus on things closer to home—and things that have the potential to pay for themselves. 

James Bowery—take note!—I think a fruitful project may be litigating the rights of American tech workers whose jobs have been outsourced or who have been replaced by imported foreigners.  The beauty of this project is that it will play well to black jurors as well as whites. 

There are sound legal arguments to be directed against any number of the offenses committed against our people, but the problem continues to be funding.  I intend to contact the NPI in the next couple of weeks to see whether its benefactor has any interest in expanding the Instutute’s efforst into legalactivism.  Perhaps it would help if some of you also made the suggestion.

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Posted by wjg on January 04, 2007, 01:01 PM | #

Fred’s post at 11:01 is well said.  This is a marathon.  Our people have failed collectively for several generations so the fix will not come easily or quickly.  Much painful labor is needed to birth a renewed European Man.

This whole thread is very positive.  We need to act - boldly and rationally - in the best tradition of our race.  As the enemy keeps handing us rope we need to start fashioning it into a noose for them and no longer for us.

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Posted by Sir Salty of Frank on January 04, 2007, 05:54 PM | #

I did contact NPI and suggested that they take a look at the potential activism raised by the last dozen or so comments on this thread.  I also suggested they pay close attention to whatever suggestions made to them in the future by Ben, who is one of the finest commentators on this or any other blog.

Anyone (and it should be someone of “status”) who wishes to contact Anderson should do so once someone (NPI, Ben?) lets us know whether the ideas discussed here have any merit whatsoever.

“James Bowery—take note!—I think a fruitful project may be litigating the rights of American tech workers whose jobs have been outsourced or who have been replaced by imported foreigners.  The beauty of this project is that it will play well to black jurors as well as whites.”

That’s a fine idea.

In the future, when a significant fraction of high-IQ (and healthily ethnocentric) whites get a solid understanding of EGI, we can look forward, perhaps, to a legal redress for compensating all the lost “child equivalents” due to alien immigration.

A thought to warm your heart on a cold winter’s day.

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Posted by PF on January 04, 2007, 08:01 PM | #

Hi Guys! Here\‘s a suggestion:

What about compiling a large word file or PDF, which functions as an FAQ for the movement. In this file, every single individual question posed by anti-racist left would be answered in the most lucid possible language.

The arguments of MacDonald, Salter, Taylor (his dissection of the racial spoils system), Brimelow (on immigration\‘s consequences), and all other greats would be concisely summarized and made digestible to a person of slightly-above-average intelligence.

All sticking points (Nordic-Med, Eugenics, Supremacy/colonization, certain tangential aspects of Feminism) would be elided over, so to speak, so that the main thrust of the ideological content could penetrate the reader\‘s brain with maximum efficiency.

If such a file was well researched, meticulously worded and argued, with all sources cited, and a clear and readable format, it could then be translated into Dutch, French, Russian, etc.

We would then have a solidified ideological corpus to refer to when arguing against leftists.

What say you, fellow MRers?

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Posted by PF on January 04, 2007, 08:15 PM | #

Sorry to do a tandem post, I know its more polite to wait for responses, but heres an example:

Section I. Race.

\“Race does not exist.\”
- counterargument

\“Races exist, but race does not matter.\”
- counterargument

\“Races exist, but differences are skin deep.\”
- counterargument

\“Race exists, and it matters, but for a political
system to acknowledge race, is immoral.\”
-counterargument
[The only political systems where race is not acknowledged are white states where the majority is not allowed to advocate its own interests…etc. etc.]

II. Miscegenation - examples can be taken from this discussion.

and so on and so on.

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Posted by Guessedworker on January 04, 2007, 08:30 PM | #

PF,

The suggestions that you and Englander make are interesting, and we would certainly support an effort to build such a resource.  But for something authoritive and useful to emerge quite a few man hours will be involved, and as with the movie review idea the problem is getting someone to operate as the lynchpin.

I don’t know how much more I can do get the word across: OK, we’ll support the idea, create the sub-blog to house it, contribute what intellectual resources we can. But ... someone has to have the drive and the time to take under his wing and do the main spadework.

That’s where the thing tends to come unstuck.  Where are the willing workers?

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Posted by PF on January 04, 2007, 08:53 PM | #

Guessedworker,

  Point taken. As regards the \“corpus of refutations\” idea, one would just have to rewrite the arguments presented on this site, to a large extent. The comments \“generate themselves\” and would just have to be formalized.

  Anyway, its an area where real service could be done, and I will ponder to myself what I can do, without making any hasy proclamations here and now. Another bonus of having a formalized document is that it can be cited and sent around, whereas the Culture of Critique cannot be so readily exchanged[yet/as far as I know]. And it proclaims that we take ourselves seriously enough to issue a formal document - which is at least an attempt at respectability.

  I really liked Fred Scrooby\‘s comment about 1924 and 1965. It really made things clear for me. Things can change, we wont be stuck forever in this moment. Anyway, cheers guys, heres to everyone waking up in 2007.

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Posted by Andy Wooster on January 04, 2007, 09:49 PM | #

I can volunteer to do some of the legwork on PF’s suggestion.  When I finish my law school applications (within the next week or so, God willing) I should have some more free time that I could commit to answering some of the specific anti-racist claims.


  I’d offer to help with the movie reviews, but that’s not really my cup of tea. I tend not to watch very many movies and I have an extremely low tolerance for anti-white crap.

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Posted by Welf on January 14, 2007, 08:13 AM | #

Tuesday, July 25, 2006
“The Evils of Miscegenation” by Thomas Fairweather
A lot of people probably do not understand the word miscegenation. Basically it means race-mixing or racial-mixed marriages. “Miscegenation” comes from the Latin miscere, “to mix” and genus, “race”.[1] It is something which most people in today’s society do not even raise an eyebrow about. But only a few decades ago in the United States of America miscegenation was illegal. In fact, even an American President by the name of Warren G. Harding was totally against the idea of miscegenation and had mentioned it in a speech that he did. As this is an opinion piece I will give my own views on the issues. Personally I find miscegenation to be abhorrent, something that deluded liberal-minded people do who only see them selves plainly as being “human-beings” rather than humans of a particular race/ethnic group.

They do understand their heritage


Read more….... http://www.newrightausnz.org/articles/theevilsofmiscegenation.html

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Posted by jklein on January 17, 2007, 02:56 PM | #

I just stumbled upon this site. Read through it quickly and found it intriguing.

I embrace the overarching theme here which is the importance of preserving our people, nation, civilization. Now, it seems to me that race (white), religion (Christianity), and heritage (western Europe) are all quite important in this regard. I’m not sure why there is so much fixation on science in that discussion. I will return to this below.

I have some queries that if one of the more informed of the posters might help, it would assist me in my own understanding of the issues being raised here.

One, how does the “scientific fact” of the existence of races add or detract from what we experience as a people to be real. Is science somehow the arbiter of what exists in the totality of human experience?

Two, if Ziv were to be correct, Heaven forbid, and there were to be this explosion of interracial marriages/breeding, and biological markers were to disappear, would that render your work obsolete? In other words, even if race were destroyed as a meaningful biological fact, does that mean it does not remain an ontological one for man, notably the few white Europeans who might remain?

Three, because it appears to me not to be a “scientific issue”, but rather one of ontological proportions, race as a component, albeit an important one, of the broader Peoplehood (i.e., the American people as essentially white Christians of western European origin and outlook) established in existence appears far more fundamental and overarching. While in declaratory form, that was mean6 as a query.

Four, and far more trivial, what does it mean in the scientific lexicon to say that something is “better”? For example, the book reviewer noted something along the way about certain features being prettier? But for a scientist, and I profess some expertise in science but not this discipline, how does one determine that? Is this some “universal” scale or has one been developed as valid for “whites” or “North Americans”? Similarly, what does “vigor” mean? As a scientist it would seem that even to suggest that a longer life is more “vigorous” is outside of scientific purview? Might a biological evolutionist (I am not one) say that a shorter life for the individuals might very well be more vigorous for the species since it facilitates adaptability? How does a scientist strictly speaking “value” these matters with any theoretical integrity?

Finally, I note someone said a scientist does not, as a scientist, recognize races, only the human race. It would seem to me that it is deeper than that. A scientist, one who accepts fundamentally the notion first really developed by Descartes of the symbolic mathematization of all of existence would have a hard time defending ontologically distinctions between any matter any where any time. He might find interesting quantifiable distinctions between things (i.e., the lengthy artical posted under “ethnic genetic interests”, but those distinctions as a matter of science are neither here nor there.

All the best, and thanks for the reply in advance,

JK

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Posted by ontological brute on January 17, 2007, 04:24 PM | #

“One, how does the “scientific fact” of the existence of races add or detract from what we experience as a people to be real. Is science somehow the arbiter of what exists in the totality of human experience?”

Science is a more objective way of looking at, and understanding, reality than subjective “faith” or your odd ramblings.  I do understand where people afraid of truth may eschew science.  Better to believe what you want to be true, than what is, to the best of our ability to understand, actually true.  Right?

“Two, if Ziv were to be correct, Heaven forbid, and there were to be this explosion of interracial marriages/breeding, and biological markers were to disappear, would that render your work obsolete? In other words, even if race were destroyed as a meaningful biological fact, does that mean it does not remain an ontological one for man, notably the few white Europeans who might remain?”

If “biological markers” were to disappear and if “race were destroyed as a meaningful biological fact”, then there would not be any “few white Europeans”, remaining, would there?  As long as any whites exist, the white race still exists (albeit in diminished form) and those whites have an interest in the well being of their (small) race.  If the white race were to completely disappear it would not exist as any sort of “fact”, except a historical one.

“Three, because it appears to me not to be a “scientific issue”, but rather one of ontological proportions…”

You are probably the only one who understands what you are talking about - assuming of course that you yourself have any idea of what you are writing here.

“While in declaratory form, that was mean6 as a query.”

Brilliant.  You are ready to post on Stormfront.

“Four, and far more trivial, what does it mean in the scientific lexicon to say that something is “better”?

Contributing to genetic contunuity/expansion.

“Finally, I note someone said a scientist does not, as a scientist, recognize races, only the human race.”

Right.  Because you “note” that “someone” said that, then it must be a statement of great utility and validity. 

“A scientist, one who accepts fundamentally the notion first really developed by Descartes of the symbolic mathematization of all of existence would have a hard time defending ontologically distinctions between any matter any where any time.”

Hmmm…a scientific “ontology” can argue that “existence” and “matter” are quantized phenomena, but the point with respect to this blog eludes me.

“He might find interesting quantifiable distinctions between things (i.e., the lengthy artical posted under “ethnic genetic interests”, but those distinctions as a matter of science are neither here nor there.”

What’s an “artical” and what happened to the closing parenthesis?

So, what in your opinion is “here of there?”  If you reject quantifiable distinctions (a fundamental basis of scientific observation) what are we then left with - what you “note” that “someone said?”

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Posted by Bo Sears on January 17, 2007, 09:41 PM | #

PF on Friday, January 5, 2007 says: “What about compiling a large word file or PDF, which functions as an FAQ for the movement. In this file, every single individual question posed by anti-racist left would be answered in the most lucid possible language.”

Without quarreling about the proposal and its value, it does point up the dangers of using the ideological frame provided by our adversaries, to wit, they are the “anti-racist left” and we are what? The “pro-racist right”? I think not.

We at Resisting Defamation prefer to refer to these guys as “left-wing racialists.” These guys are some of the most racist people in the world, they just mask it because they are racist against Euroman.

Let’s not give them the “anti-racist left” label which they want when they are really the “left-wing racialists.”

********************

In addition, I would like to suggest that we attack with the small end of the wedge, not the big edge and race is probably the single biggest issue there is. Here are some examples of issues we could use as smaller ends of the wedge.

1) The lack of specific programs (this is in California, after all) for white kids hooked on tobacco. There is a massively funded operation for every other ethnicity, and white kids now have the highest rate of tabacco use in the USA as compared with other ethnicities.

2) The lack of specific programs to intervene in meth use. This is a distinctly white drug of choice on the West Coast, and there is not one program dedicated to helping these white kids get off it. In the meantime, there are bunches of programs helping kids in other ethnic groups get free of their drugs of choice. White kids have only the police.

3) School drop-out rates for white kids. There are plenty of white kids dropping out of school, but there are no programs for white kids.

4) White homeless people have no program in place to help them. Serving pork soup sounds like a great idea.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on January 17, 2007, 11:33 PM | #

How does the “scientific fact” of the existence of races add or detract from what we experience as a people to be real. Is science somehow the arbiter of what exists in the totality of human experience?  (—J. Klein)

J. Klein is asking if we have to wait till science “proves” that forced race-replacement is a legitimate cause for concern before expressing concern.  No, for a couple of reasons: 

1) Scientific and philosophical reflection prior to 1953 (the year of Watson & Crick’s discoveries concerning DNA’s structure) stretching back to Aristotle made clear there were races with different characteristics at least partly inborn whose members didn’t necessarily want them changed.  It didn’t need post-1953 molecular genetics to “prove” it:  for two-and-a-half thousand years it was proven soundly enough.  Molecular genetics could help to rout modern race-denying sophistries but wasn’t necessary to “prove” race.  Many things prove race, all but that one in existence prior to 1953, some since hundreds of years B.C. 

In a related vein, common sense and the obvious are not “assumed false until proven by science,” despite what the left wants everyone to think.  Quite the contrary, common sense and the obvious are accorded full credit until disproven by science.  Science never disproved race, whether “classical” race or “modern molecular-genetic” race.  There was never a reason not to accord full credit to both, whether in the time of Aristotle, or in the year 1952, or in the year 2007. 

2) The other side simply denies what it doesn’t like by extending sophistries to cover that particular matter:  they’ll deny two-plus-two then go home and sleep like a baby.  So, science isn’t what’s being argued.  In fact, nothing’s being “argued”:  there’s no argument, only assertion, by them, of what their grasping little Freudian ids want and demand.  Demand away:  you can’t have it.

f Ziv were to [prevail, would] the few white Europeans who might remain [constitute a viable race]?  (—idem)

Let’s cross that bridge when we come to it.  Thermodynamically it will be much harder for Jewish academics like Ziv, Richard Lewontin, Stephen Jay Gould, and the rest to totally destroy the Euro race than to partially damage it the way something partly moth-eaten is damaged (accomplishing that sort of damage by persuading weak-minded dupes like Heidi Crumb to divert racial reproductive energy and four-hundred-thousand-year-old racial genetic capital away from “breeding true” and toward breeding interspecies hybrids).  Successfully nibbling away at the white race’s edges by “getting at” its weak spots like Heidi Dummkopf, Angelina Laide, and President George “The Chimp” Bush can be accomplished on the part of these Jewish academics with relatively low cost in energy input.  Finishing the job with actual final eradication of whites would require massive energy inputs, so massive it’s not likely to be feasible.  Of course stupendous genetic damage can be inflicted in the attempt, such as the sort of damage inflicted on the right whale population and the bison herds through almost extinguishing them as species.

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Posted by JB on January 18, 2007, 12:43 AM | #

PF:
“What about compiling a large word file or PDF, which functions as an FAQ for the movement. In this file, every single individual question posed by anti-racist left would be answered in the most lucid possible language.”


that’s a good idea, let’s start a thread to see what MR readers think should be included in that big FAQ page. The opposition forum of Stormfront is in theory a good place to debate and to destroy the arguments of the anti-racist dimwits but there’s just too many topics and the same stupid questions keep being asked over and over, it never stops.

A blog like MR is a better place to debate misguided whites or our racial opponents.

The last time a bunch of anti-white libertardians tried to win the debate over race and the West they did not do very well.

http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/samidioting/

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Posted by Rnl on January 18, 2007, 01:58 AM | #

Bo Sears wrote:

We at Resisting Defamation prefer to refer to these guys as “left-wing racialists.” These guys are some of the most racist people in the world, they just mask it because they are racist against Euroman.

You would be much wiser to dump “racism” as a serious word.  We should not accept “racist” as a label for ourselves and we should not apply it to others.

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Posted by AlbertPinto on February 26, 2007, 03:07 AM | #

Interracial mixing has been going on for thousands and thousands of years and the evidence to support this is all around you in form of diversity that prevails among people today. Keep in mind that that there are cultures all over the world whose foundations have built on the basis of interracial mixing of pople over thousands and thousands of years. So to present so called scientific evidence in a feeble attempt to show that interracial mixing is something that should be avoided is sort of hypocrical. Don’t you think so? It flies flat in the face of thousands of years of human intermixing and diversity that is obvious and right in front of you.

If you are attempting to present something even close to a scientific evidence arguing that interracial mixing should be avoided , please state the obvious first. That obvious fact is: “interracial mixing has been prevelent among humans for thousands and thousands of years and that foundations of many cultures and belief systems have been based on interracial mixing.”

Given the context of this website, I feel compelled to say that many westerners tend to talk about race issues with arrogance and superiority. They forget that throughout the civilized history of the world (last 5 thousands years or so) India and China have dominated the world economically, scientifically, and culturally. Western dominence is just a blip in the civilized history of human race. And given the way India and China are starting to wake up, history may just regard the current period (what is referred to as Morden Era) as an aberration over consistant cultural, ecoomic, and scientific dominance by India and China.

Westerners are already starting to migrate to India and China for finding jobs. Go to Gurgaon, a place next to a small city of 10 million people where I grew up (Delhi), See who works in the call centers that are popping up all over the place in Gurgaon. If you are worried about asians immigrating into your country and spoiling your genetic pool, wait another 15 years, you will be more preoccupied with westerns spoiling their genetic pool by moving to India and China. Will you guys be presenting scientific facts to prevent emigration then?

Good luck and have a nice life.

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Posted by martin_uk on March 04, 2007, 07:42 PM | #

“They forget that throughout the civilized history of the world (last 5 thousands years or so) India and China have dominated the world economically, scientifically, and culturally.”

One cannot forget something that did not happen. How on Earth could India and China have dominated the world at any time over the last 5000 years?  How many Indians and Chinese were in Europe 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 years ago? Even the Europeans did not dominate the world until the last three hundred years or so.
Anyway, the population of India before the British liberated India was about 100 million. Now it is 1000 million, so about 9 in every 10 Indians owe their existence to the British and their Empire.
99% of science and technology has come about through the efforts and ingenuity of white men of European extraction. 95% still is.

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Posted by Lurker on March 05, 2007, 12:20 AM | #

So Albert, if everyone has been interbreeding (obviously we are talking en masse not just a few individuals) for all these thousands of years, how is it for example that Burmese as a group appear so different to Icelanders - as a group. Given that they are all interbreeding how can that have happened?

Maybe Im special but if you took a bunch of guys from Tibet and a bunch of guys from Kenya, you know Im pretty sure I could sort them into two groups in very short order. How could that be when theyve been interbreeding all this time?

And when was it that China & India dominated the world economically, culturally etc? I must have missed that historical period, you will be giving us dates, historical milestones, references wont you, I await that with interest.

139

Posted by AlbertPinto on March 08, 2007, 04:03 AM | #

Oh Boy!!! I definitely overestimated the smartness of people on this forum. (given the complete ignorance and skewed logic that last two posts demonstrate). If I had known earlier, I probably won’t have posted in the first place.

You guys are just a bunch of innocent (proabably working with families or going to school or something like that) white guys just trying to brain wash yourself with self concocted and/or hand picked statistics, combining irrelevent and isolated scientific facts to come up with new scientific theories and basis that sound convincing to yourself.

Certainly you have a right to do that. No harm in a little bit of ignorance combined with day dreaming as long as no one puts an atomic bomb in your hands.

So I am sorry that I posted in the first place. I don’t mean to spoil your day dream.

Peace and have fun and if by any chance you get some time, there is a thing called “google.” Use it to search the internet for information a litlte bit. Who knows it may just open your eyes some day (but if that is too uncomfortable don’t worry about it too much).

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Posted by martin_uk on March 13, 2007, 07:58 PM | #

I do not think that your response is in any way adequate. When I state that almost all of the technology that you use or benefit from is the result of the ingenuity and creativity of white men of European heritage, it is possible for me to readily back this assertion up with examples.

Jet Engine -Frank Whittle
TV -Logie Baird
Radio -Marconi
Computer -Various British and USA scientists, e.g. Alan Turing, but I believe there was an Englishman called Flowers who deserves more credit.
Viagra -Scientists in Kent
Record disc -Berliner
Germ theory of disease -Pasteur
Inoculation -Jenner
Earth goes round the Sun theory -Copernicus
Space Rocket -Von Braun

This is just a brief list. I could go on all day if I started referencing wikipedia.

I don’t demand that you go and find these examples yourself. I present these examples to you in my post.
Now, kindly explain how the Chinese and the Indians have dominated the world economically, culturally, or however, in the last 5000 years.

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Posted by AlbertPinto on March 15, 2007, 05:24 AM | #

Your earlier statement (the population of India before the British liberated India was about 100 million. Now it is 1000 million, so about 9 in every 10 Indians owe their existence to the British and their Empire) pretty much guaranteed a non-adequate response. I took it to be a sign of flawed logic being used to do some day dreaming. Some others may see that statement as hinting genocide. If you have a third interpretation of that statement, I would certainly like to know.

Also it is interesting that you refer to wikipedia as a source of information. Wikipedia is certainly a good start even though it has many inadequacies.

In any case, here are some quotes from wikipedia that you may find useful:

*British Raj section of wikipedia*
Economic historians estimate that India commanded roughly 25% of world GDP by 1800, but perhaps a tenth of that by the 20th century, due in large part to the severe and rapid decline in the Subcontinent’s native industries (Maddison, Bairoch, Frank). I wonder what the british were doing in India while the economy declined from 25% to 2.5% of world GDP? The most obvious and common sense answer is that british were doing more than just sitting on their white asses (sounds funny, huh?). Actually, they were robbing the country (India) dry for benefit of their little island (UK) while suppressing the native industries. Why would a robber encourage development of new industries, right? I don’t necessarily agree with these figures (25%, 2%, or 100 million population), but I think you get the point.

It is also interesting that you credit Copernicus for Earth goes around the Sun theory, becuase as per Wikipedia (your own source), Indians “invented” the “sun goes around the earth” theory twice (ancient india, medivial india) before Copernicus was even born.

*Ancient India section of Heliocentrism section of Wikipedia*
1. The earliest traces of a counter-intuitive idea that it is the Earth that is actually moving and the Sun that is at the centre of the solar system (hence the concept of heliocentrism) is found in several Vedic Sanskrit texts written in ancient India.

*Medivial India section of Heliocentrism section of Wikipedia*
Arabic translations of Aryabhata’s Aryabhatiya were available from the 8th century, while Latin translations were available from the 13th century, before Copernicus had written De revolutionibus orbium coelestium, so it is possible that Aryabhata’s work had an influence on Copernicus’ ideas.

Now, I really hope that you are not going to credit gravity to “Newton, a british scientist.” or are you? What about language? grammar? civil engineering and construction?...

I guess this is adequate enough response for now. But I haven’t event gotten started yet and the REALLY interesting part, of which there are multiple, still remain.

Also, I would suggest that you start distinguishing between “real inventions” and “applications of those real invention.” There is a somewhat blurry (but very realistic) line between what should be considered as invention and what should be considered as an application of that invention.

Development of “Grammar and Language” is an invention. Poetry in my opinion is an application of that invention.

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Posted by martin_uk on March 16, 2007, 06:27 PM | #

What are you talking about when you say that wikipedia was my source?! I said that I could go on all day IF I started referencing wikipedia.

Copernicus did not merely state that the Sun was the centre of the Universe, he backed it up with sound arguments. In particular, he showed how the hypothesis that the Sun was at the centre explained the anomalous retrograde motion of the planets.  The Ancient Indians knew nothing about all the inticracies of planetary motion, or what the heliocentric theory was designed to explain. To say that the first person to suggest that the Sun was at the centre actually discovered that the Sun was at the centre is like saying that just because an Ancient Greek philosopher conjectured that the world was made up of atoms, therefore he is the discoverer of atomic theory, or that the first person to come across a dinosaur bone was therefore the discoverer of dinosaurs, even though at the time they believed that it was from a creature that had perished in Noah’s flood.

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Posted by AlbertPinto on March 17, 2007, 02:40 AM | #

Did you actually read the Wikipedia section on Heliocentrism or are you simply indulging in propaganda?

Aryabhata (medieval India), who was born almost 1000 years before Copernicus was a mathematician by profession. If that itself doesn’t give you a hint, let me clarify: The guy (Aryabhata) wrote an entire damn book about motions of planets and moon around Sun which included calculations of orbital periods and several astronomical ratios and constants that are still in use today (although in a much more refined form).

Four hundred years later (in 8th century), Aryabhata’s book was translated into Arabic. After another five hundred years later (in 13th century), Aryabhata’s book was translated into Latin. Almost 150 years after than Copernicus was born. Surely Copernicus knew how to read Latin.

So what exact “original” contribution did Copernicus make again? For which you are giving 100% of credit for invention of “earth goes around the sun” theory? Just because Copernicus popularized “earth goes around the sun” theory among Europeans doesn’t mean he invented it. Given the propensity of the west (in recent history) to destroy, marginalize, brain-wash, or cover up achievements of native cultures all across the world, it is not surprising that you are so vehemently arguing that Copernicus invented “earth goes around the sun” theory.

By the way, you still haven’t made any comment on how India’s GDP declined from 25% of the world GDP to 2% of the world GDP while the British were ruling India? What were these so called great western administrators & generals doing in India during that time?

Now about “earth goes around the sun” theory in Ancient India (whew!). Here is a direct quote from Wikipedia: “The earliest traces of a COUNTER-INTUITIVE idea that it is the Earth that is actually moving and the Sun that is at the centre of the solar system (hence the concept of heliocentrism) is found in SEVERAL Vedic Sanskrit texts written in ancient India.” The key word here is “counter intuitive”. If it was so obvious or trivial, why wasn’t everyone else coming up with similar ideas?

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Posted by Mulatto scum on March 21, 2007, 06:17 PM | #

I never expected to encounter such rampant and illogical racism as I have experienced on this site.  Do you people really believe that mulattos are stupid and ugly?  Do you actually encounter people of mixed race and treat them differently?  Do you do a genetic test to make sure that everyone you meet is a “pure” race, whatever that is?

Pathetic.

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Posted by wintermute on March 21, 2007, 07:02 PM | #

Any Jew who violates this principle shouldn’t be surprised if he gets some verbal anti-Semitism in return.

Excuse me, but isn’t verbal abuse a wildly disproportionate sentence for what amounts to attempted murder or attempted genocide, especially when we add counts for fraud and conspiracy?

Julius Streicher was hung for far less. And if we don’t respect the judicial precedents at Nuremburg, what does that say of our own countries and their systems of justice?

Indeed, if Nuremburg were - as some scurrilous critics claim - a mere show trial dependant on torture, tall-tale telling Jews, extorted testimony, and suchlike - then wouldn’t the Third Reich still be the legitimate government of Germany?

Since that is obviously not the case, Nuremburg laws still obtain. Since so many Nuremburg judges and personnel were Jewish, Ziv has no place to complain.

Fraud, conspiracy, and attempted genocide have death by hanging set - many times over - as precedent. And not the sort of hanging where you die instantly, not at all. The kind where you hang there, kicking and struggling and making the most awful noises for twenty minutes or more.

Anglo-Saxon justice, in other words.

The verbal anti-Germanism did come eventually, and in fact never stopped, but I simply wanted to point out that verbal anti-Semitism is in no way a fair, just, or proportionate punishment for Ziv’s crimes.

We must look to the wise and far seeing jurists of Nuremburg for these answers to those wrenching legal questions.

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Posted by reality check people on March 22, 2007, 03:43 AM | #

you’re all jus jealous because your only choices amonmgst the ‘great purebred white’ superior? society are all morbidly fat obese hamburger loving materialists (and that’s just the men!) don’t get me started on the fat anglo females i see everyday. go on, breed yourself out of existance you ‘proud white, oh sorry you actually look pink to me’ people

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Posted by Just some guy on May 24, 2007, 04:22 AM | #

Even if the book is number 26000 on Amazon, if it convinces just one idiotic white woman to commit bestiality instead of marrying a white guy, then Ziv has effectively accomplished his goal of murdering a white baby.

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Posted by Gillian on May 29, 2007, 02:23 AM | #

You are SICK SICK SICK SICK SICK to hold on to these ethnocentric beliefs! Different physical features and appearance has nothing to do with a person’s mindset or ability. You think you’re educated, but all I have seen manifest itself is the ignorance and stupidity of a narrowminded person. You call a model deranged because she produces a child with a black man, and you call her child malformed because he’s mixed…Honestly, I didn’t even know fools like you still existed in the world…

I think eugenics should be used to eliminate idiots like you. People who still hold beliefs on white superiority should be the ones who shouldn’t be allowed to have children.

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Posted by sully on August 04, 2007, 01:42 PM | #

I think it’s so sad how the people running this website try so damn hard to enforce their opinions of beauty on people.  Calling Heidi Klum “deranged” and calling her new baby “malformed mulatto” and “retarded-looking” yet harping on the “beauty” of Heidi’s blonde and blue eyed daughter.  It’s such an obvious and ridiculous attempt at brainwashing people


How pathetically sad that you people try so hard to force the world to see your narrow minded visions.  Whether you like it or not, the world is mixing and people are coming together and loving who THEY WANT to love!
you have no control over the human race and their genitals, so just get used to it.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on August 04, 2007, 02:31 PM | #

“Whether you like it or not, the world is mixing and people are coming together and loving who THEY WANT to love!”  (—Sully)

When are the diaspora Jews like Ziv going to start?  When are the Israelis going to?  “Any day now”?  Yeah ... that’s what I thought ... Any day now ...

Riiiiiiight ................

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Posted by Orion Blue on August 04, 2007, 08:34 PM | #

I think eugenics should be used to eliminate idiots like you.
There are others who believed in using eugenics to eliminate ‘undesirables’ ... And you are one of the “good guys”, right?

People who still hold beliefs on white superiority should be the ones who shouldn’t be allowed to have children.

Stalin had a very effective system for crushing dissent, too. You seem to be following in his footsteps.

On the subject of female white trash copulating irresponsibly, I should like to refer readers to the following Link, which features a degenerate, deracine middle-aged slut who gives voice to the whole disgraceful debate about certain kinds of women and their preferences for sordid sex.

This woman, who is a snob in terms of what she calls ‘socioeconomic status’, which basically means social status and wealth value judgements, from a feminist, who if she were normal, would not be copulating with blacks.

Feminists often complain about “men wanting to control women’s bodies”. My response to that, after reading her semi-literate self-indulgent sexual ramblings, is that if women cannot control their own bodies (as this slut is clearly unable to do), should have it controlled either by enforced detention or surgery. The links is as follows: http://www.nypress.com/18/49/news&columns/SusanCrainBakos.cfm
(opens in new window).

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Posted by AlbertPinto on August 12, 2007, 05:01 PM | #

>
> On the subject of female white trash copulating irresponsibly, I
> should like to refer readers to the following Link, which features a
> degenerate, deracine middle-aged slut who gives voice to the
> whole disgraceful debate about certain kinds of women and their
> preferences for sordid sex.
>

In direct contradiction to your statement, the fact is that white men are probably more likely to have what you refer to as “inter-racial sexual relationships” then white women. Yet you choose to specifically search and dig up instances of inter-racial sex involving white women.

In fact by many standards, I would go as far as saying that that “white men” are probably the most promiscous men on this planet.

So if you are worried about inter-racial sexual contact, I suggest you start with your fellow white men first. Not to mention that any so called “scientific” rationale that you may come up for discouraging “inter-racial sexual relationships” are probably flawed to begin with (your subjective personal tastes aside).

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Posted by Fr John on August 28, 2007, 05:49 PM | #

“Al, you realize that when you say the word “Jew” you realize, of course, that this automatically disqualifies your opinions unless of course, you are Jewish.”

Ah, yes, the perennial carp of the unregenerate against the elected, especially when they come to find that ‘those who say they are Jews, and are not’ [Rev, 2:8,9] are the ones telling us how to think, believe, act, and whom to fornicate with.

I say fornicate, because even Ziv’s racial heritage forbids it- the anti-miscegenation clauses of the Hebrew OT.

And, as Pope J2P2 noted, “We are all semites now.”

So, as one ‘semite’ to another [sic] semite,

My initial comment on this article. One look at the author’s name would have told me, before all this verbal flatulence, that the book’s thesis was flawed, and unequivocally biased.

Anathema sit.

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Posted by Tommy G on November 20, 2007, 02:12 PM | #

From VFR:

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/


Saletan’s solution to racial differences in intelligence

George writes:

William Saletan has come out with his follow-up. I was not impressed. For instance, he claims:

“Intermarriage is closing the gap. To the extent that IQ differences are genetic, the surest way to eliminate them is to reunite the human genome. This is already happening, including in my own family. In 1970, one percent of U.S. marriages were between blacks and nonblacks. By 1990, it was 4.5 percent. It may be the best punch line of the IQ debate: The more genetic the racial gap is, the faster we can obliterate it.”

Except of course that intermarriage is closing the IQ gap at the expense of whites where non-half-Asian mixed race children tend to have lower IQs than their white parent. And Jews don’t count as a fully separate race. The original Jewish ethnic group doesn’t really exist anymore because the Jews have picked up so much European DNA over the past two thousand years.
The left is going to have to try harder.


LA replies:

Amazing. Yesterday I predicted that Saletan’s response to the recognition of inherent racial differences in intelligence would be some vastly expanded racial quotas scheme involving an endless commitment by society to equalize racial outcomes despite inherent racial differences of ability. But he’s gone beyond mere racial quotas, to a more primary “solution” that I should have predicted because I have often written about it before.
As I said in my 1994 American Renaissance speech, racial intermarriage is the first and last resort of liberals to the insoluble problems caused by racial liberalism (scroll down to where I say, “Ultimately the pursuit of race-blindness…”). It goes like this. Liberals start by taking the following positions: (1) race does not matter; (2) all races are of equal abilities; (3) all races are equally assimilable into the same society; (4) we must not discriminate between races and must not exclude any race but must be race-blind; and (4) anyone who is race-conscious is a morally defective human being who must be re-educated or purged. On the basis of these beliefs, liberals create a racially integrated society and they also open the nation’s borders to tens of millions of Hispanics, who are all believed to have the same abilities as whites and to be completely assimilable into America. But then when it turns out that all races are not of equal abilities and that non-discriminatory racial inclusion and the resulting racial diversity has created insoluble dilemmas for society, what’s the liberals’ response? Wipe out all the human races via mass racial intermarriage. Suddenly race, which didn’t matter at all (and anyone who thought it mattered was a defective human being), matters so much and creates such intractable problems that the only way to solve those problems is to eliminate all the existing human races and create a new, blended human race that no one has ever seen before. Because blacks and browns can’t assimilate to and perform equally with whites, the whites must blend themselves with the blacks and browns and thus go out of existence. Meanwhile the liberals never admit that it was their own belief in racial sameness, racial equality, and racial inclusion that led to these intractable problems and that now makes necessary this unprecedented social-and-racial engineering scheme, which includes the elimination not only of our own race but of all other races.

Even Hitler never proposed the systematic erasure of all the historic races of mankind. But liberals like William Saletan do, without blinking an eye.

I’ll have more to say about this later.

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Posted by Bobbert on November 27, 2007, 09:58 AM | #

What’s a nubian?

156

Posted by Anynomous on December 03, 2007, 10:41 AM | #

I found your article sickening to my stomach and can only hope the world is not too full of people such as you. It seems to me you are a sad lonely man without a family or perhaps with a wife who gives you none (as she probably has a lover with a bigger dick as you have) , so you put all your time and energy in picking on others… How sad… As it is plain to see that people like Heidi Klum and Seal truly love each other. A person not being able to show happines for others is merely sad. Such as yourself.

157

Posted by erika on December 17, 2007, 05:52 PM | #

the article about hiedi’s baby is just plain stupid. her white girl is adorable, no lie, but so is her new mulatto boy. Infact, i find him to be much cuter. and you’r whole explanation on white/black babies and women is very ignorent.

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Posted by Darren on December 28, 2007, 09:49 AM | #

“and you’r whole explanation on white/black babies and women is very ignorent. “

ignorant of what exactly?

159

Posted by Grouik on December 31, 2007, 09:37 AM | #

AlbertPinto,

It is quite interesting that you talk about Aryabhata, because, in fact he wrote his text in Sanskrit, which, according to Wikipedia, was one of the first Indo-European languages.

In fact, many Nazi officials thought India was the homeland of the “Aryans” and were admirers of Ancient India; for example, Himmler was a Buddhist; Savitri Devi, one of the most influent Nazi mysticists, was married to an Indian man; and the SS did make expeditions in Tibet in order to find the roots of the “Aryan Race”.

Yet I think that neither abundance nor lack of technical innovations made by an ethnic group should justify its disappearance. And it is also clear to me that Indo-Europeans are not the only ones who made technical innovations.

However, I believe that today’s medias are trying to brainwash people into thinking that mixed-race marriages are better for them. I would compare this kind of propaganda to the one led in the 3rd Reich to make people antisemitic.

The problem is that only the whites are threatened of extinction, the main cause to this is not interracial marriages, although it plays a role, but low birth rates. In fact, whites are the only ones who are not making enough children to replace the previous generaton. This unmistakably leads to extinction.

As you said, there was probably only one kind of Homo Sapiens at the origin (although it is not proved). It is the evolution of this kind in different areas of the world into many different races that brought genetic diversity on Earth.

This is the reason why I think that mixed-race marriages and its promotion by the media threaten the diversity of mankind. Of course, when there are no more different races, there won’t be any more racism, but there won’t be any richness either.

I also think that multiracial society brings more problems than solutions: for example, racism does not exist among people of the same race.

All this to say that “racism” is probably only a natural reflex to preserve ethnic diversity.

Most of ethno-nationalists don’t have anything against other races, as long as they live in their own country, and that includes me.

Sorry if I made mistakes, I’m not a native English speaker.

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Posted by Guessedworker on December 31, 2007, 10:33 AM | #

You did fine. Grouik.  You might want to add territorial dispossession to your rather short list of extinction-producing events.  Many of us would extend the argument to modernity as a whole.

The fundamental point for liberals and those of non-European descent is this: do you support the extinction of the European people?  If not, cease piling up the straws on the camel’s back.  If you are an immigrant or non-European, leave the West.  If you are a European, live in your own homeland.  If you are a businessman in Europe, stop calling for cheap foreign workers.  If you are a mainstream politican in Europe, listen to your people.

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Posted by GoyAmongYou on January 22, 2008, 10:55 AM | #

Wake up and smell the coffee

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Posted by Yuezhus on March 14, 2008, 09:39 AM | #

Guessedworker said something in this post, and I’m replying to it here because it would be off topic there.

Anyway, GW said:

...We set out to preserve the greatest of peoples…

Are you referring to Europeans and only them, or would you seek to preserve another race if they, in your eyes, proved to be greater? What if, say, Cro Magnons or Far Eastern Siberians, with their gigantic cranial capacities, yet uglier faces, happened to exist in sizable numbers in some uninhabited part of the world? Would you stop caring about Europeans?

If this greatness is completely genetic, are there some races who are only lesser in greatness simply due to different average levels in one or two hormones, or is the greatness of the ‘Greatest race’ so far removed from others that it can’t easily be engineered in others? I don’t believe in either resolutely, but I tend towards the former.

It may well be, among a certain race, whatever Greatness you may grant them, that there are common patterns of neurological development that, if a child is raised in a certain way, will render the person in question almost incapable of Greatness, through the rejection and eventual pruning of many ‘excess’ neurons that control field independence, latent inhibition, spontaneity etc. The race perceived to be the Greatest may not actually be too different in neurological potential from a certain race, but will have a far easier time of reaching such, because of the robust, individualist and comparatively active nature of their childhoods; such people will be easily excited by incoming stimuli, and those precious abundant childhood neurons would be nurtured and retained in full. Such robustness may be, more than anything, hormonal in its cause, which is not to say there are complex neural causes at work too.

The music situation in 433 BC, and especially the math situation in 2006 Australia, make me very curious as to what this ‘Greatness’ truly is. Even among races that are immediately ruled out from being ‘Great’ through their lack of intelligence sometimes have, when controlling for intelligence with the ‘Greatest’, large advantages openness and divergence, which would make the Great’s ‘Greatness’ significantly greater if such traits were adapted (no, not through mixing). The genius of Scriabin or Rimsky cannot be denied, for example, but I can’t say the music of millions of working/underclass Russians compares favorably to that of a few million working/underclass Jamaicans.

I do not deny this Greatness, but it may be something very different from what it is commonly made out to be; at its root it may well be very simple indeed.

...Or if you’re just talking about hotness, then yes, Europeans win.

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Posted by Svyatoslav Igorevich on March 14, 2008, 12:30 PM | #

We don’t know for sure what creates European greatness, in the objective sense.  It’s best to be conservative (small c) and act to cover all the bases, i.e., protect our genes and our culture.  This seems to be in the interest of all featherless bipeds.

In the non-objective sense, with the objective sense set aside, from our perspective we’re the greatest because we’re we, no other explanations needed.

It’s ****ing odd to me that people can’t grasp that.  They’ll get rabidly behind a bunch of negroes in gym shorts throwing a ball through a hoop, but they can’t grasp this simple concept.  It’s almost as if they’re brainwashed...

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Posted by Svyatoslav Igorevich on March 14, 2008, 12:37 PM | #

And yes, if, say, the roles of blacks and whites were reversed, we as whites would have an interest in preserving black racial and cultural integrity much greater than vice-versa, even though our own EGI would of course remain strong.

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Posted by sigs on March 23, 2008, 04:05 PM | #

lol nazis

166

Posted by Fred Scrooby on March 23, 2008, 04:58 PM | #

Notice “sigs,” just above, could’ve made the exact same point he was trying to make by saying, “lol Israelis,” “lol Zionists,” or “lol Likudniks” (not to mention the Japs, the Chinese, the Subcon nations, the Arab nations, the Latin American nations, the Southeast Asian nations, in fact any non-Eurosphere nation or people on earth — the Euros are the only ones reproached for not wanting to go extinct; for everybody else including the Jews it’s considered normal).

167

Posted by dfsdfsfd on March 26, 2008, 08:48 PM | #

Scrooby, just shut the fuck up.

168

Posted by Fred Scrooby on March 26, 2008, 09:27 PM | #

State your ethnicity, race, and species please, dfs:  I generally like to know those things before replying to someone.

169

Posted by Martin from Canada on March 27, 2008, 11:02 PM | #

Shame on you…  Obama is as good, if not, a much better candidate than Senator Clinton is.  If we’re going to look at racial differences and ask ourselves questions about having a black (mulatto) african-american president and his ability to do so, we should also be looking at Senator Clinton’s ability to preside as a woman.  Didn’t we already go through this in the sixties and seventies?  This election is the fruit of that era; we are living in a new time… Unless McCain wins…

Too many times I see people (white, black, asian etc.)misinterpret subjective data and forget that socio-economic conditions, recent history and most importantly upbringing have more to do with the results of these questionable tests designed for and issued mostly by Western societies.  As for beauty, that is completely left up to an individual’s taste.

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Posted by Guessedworker on March 28, 2008, 03:25 AM | #

Martin from Canada,

Whether you know it or not, you are an unregenerate seeker after the authored self.  Doubtless it offends your learned sensibilities to be told that individualism is a selected psychological trait that is stronger in the European than in other races.  Doubtless you will abhor the gentle advice that we are never “living in a new time”, but always in evolutionary time - we cannot escape our genes, and self-authorship is fit only for the self-estranged and the intellectual lightweight.  In any case, you demonstrate by your attachment to the terribly modern supra-Marxist meme of black equality that you are not free at all.

Put away your silly liberal arguments and your pathetic faux-morality (“Shame on you”), and live with what you know to be true in Man and in yourself.  You are not free as you are.  You are not clever.  You are not radical.  You are not worth listening to.  You are a mere Jewish extended phenotype mouthing off white-harming arguments.  Desist.

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Posted by j on May 05, 2008, 12:09 PM | #

I have not read Ziv’s book but any animal husbandry genetist could demonstrate that his thesis, that human miscegenation has an improving effect, is absurd. I happened to be on the spot when Cebu cattle breeds were introduced to Northern Argentina, and “reproductores” were sold at very high prices because their hybrid descendants had that “vigor hibrido” and achieved sales weight earlier. The second generation of hybrid had no hybrid effect at all and a portion of them was worse than the original shorthorn or aberdeen angus breeds, or the pure cebu. Some people kept European females and used Asiatic males, but it was very impractical. Nowadays the whole hybridization technology has been forgotten.  The same in milching cattle, hybrids were (are) very poor producers, and high yielding cows are a highly inbred population derived from Dutch (Holstein, etc.) cattle. We in Israel hold the world’s record milk yields and our herds are all descendants of two or three Dutch very sturdy and high yielding animals. It is a pity Mr Ziv did not visited some of our kibbutz farms, because he would have learned that in milk or meat production (which are businesses where you have to be very competitive and efficient to make some money) hybrid vigor is an economic disaster. It may be very non PC and from an anthropomorphic perspective, most immoral, but animal husbandry is based on extreme inbreeding. I presume Ziv comes from a social science area, so he is not familiar with real life practical, applied, for money, genetics.

If you allow me, I wish to clear up a common misunderstanding of Israel’s marriage laws, which one commenter thinks is racist. It is only necessary to walk in any street in Israel to see that the population is very very heterogeneous, and we have blond Ashkenazi Jews as well North African Moroccan Jews, and Dagestan Jews and black skinned Indian Jews and wow! now even Ethiopian Jews (IQ same as the rest of the Ethiopians, however they were persecuted in Ethiopia and called cannibals). All of them can marry with any other Jew. A non Jew converted by a religious court accepted by Israeli religious bureaucrats, is a Jew for everything including marriage. There is a problem with American converts, because our courts feel they are not religious enough and they think they have no jewish legitimacy and no authority to convert anyone. But that is a tremendous infight about who has the authority to convert, and not about the race or whatever of the converted. The israeli religious courts try to follow some Biblical and very primitive marriage laws, and maintain a blacklist of people who cannot marry with Jews, such as children of married women whose father is suspected to be other than the legal husband. Those are considered bastards and cannot enter the community for ten generations. That and other imbecilities give a wrong impression of the jewish marriage legal practices, that are strange but certainly no racist. The Jewish people is undergoing a great process of intermixing, mostly within the religious framework of Judaism, like all the peoples in the world. Already Moses (who married a black girl) told the Israelites that “you are son of a wandering Amorite” meaning that no one knows his real ancestry and should not be too proud of it.

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Posted by Tom on August 05, 2008, 12:43 AM | #

actually….asshole who wrote this…the mixed girl is at least ten times prettier than the twelve year old white boy with a bikini on.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on August 30, 2008, 10:05 PM | #

“It is only necessary to walk in any street in Israel to see that the population is very very heterogeneous, and we have blond Ashkenazi Jews as well North African Moroccan Jews, and Dagestan Jews and black skinned Indian Jews and wow! now even Ethiopian Jews  (—J, a couple above)

Not much longer on the Ethiopian Jews, J — looks like the Ashkenazis are tightening the screws on the Jewish wackos who want them in the country.  They won’t last long:  no more will be allowed to enter, and within half-a-generation those already there will have dwindled considerably due to withering attrition policies aimed at zeroing out their numbers.  Those policies will succeed in the long run, and these mistakes will have been disappeared from Israel as if by magic.  The Jews do a lot of dumb things but letting lots of Negroes stay in their country isn’t one of them — that’s strictly for the goys. 

See also here:

ISRAELI RACE REALISM

After 30 years of admitting 120,000 self-styled Jews from Ethiopia (mean national IQ 64), Israel announced it was slamming the door on further such immigration - for the Ethiopian immigrants and their descendants had turned out to be uneducable, unemployable and poor (despite government underwriting of mortgages for them) (Daily Telegraph, 6 viii).  Leaders of the already-immigrated Ethiopians promptly accused their hosts of “discrimination” and “prejudice.”

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on August 30, 2008, 10:16 PM | #

Sorry, that second link doesn’t go to the right batch of entries and I can’t make the right one work.  Scroll down to the entries of August 11.  It’s in there.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on August 30, 2008, 10:24 PM | #

Daily Telegraph, 6 viii” means Daily Telegraph, August 6.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on September 19, 2008, 10:25 PM | #

The Jews keep telling us to marry Negroes, but look what Jews marry.

Practice what you preach, Jews!

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on September 19, 2008, 10:56 PM | #

The photo caption in the article I linked just above:

“Les Juifs sont des activistes infatigables du métissage industriel dont ils nous vantent en choeur les vertus. Les déclarations sont innombrables.  Mais lorsque l’on observe en leur privé les Juifs qui les promeuvent, on constate qu’il s’agit d’une arme d’exportation exclusive destinée à éradiquer biologiquement les peuples dont ils veulent le contrôle absolu.”

It says,

“Jews are tireless activists on behalf of industrial-strength race-mixing, something whose praises they sing with one voice, in endless claims.  But when one looks at the private lives of the Jews who promote this stuff, one sees it’s strictly ‘for export only,’ a weapon aimed at the biological eradication of the peoples over whom the Jews want absolute control.”

(It must be acknowledged that, notwithstanding their many faults, the Frogs, those times when they manage to get their mojo working, sometimes have an admirable way of hitting the nail squarely on the head ....)

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Posted by DQ feat. 50 paisa on October 20, 2008, 04:45 PM | #

I was going to bring up the question of Ethiopian Jews in Israel, to what extent to they marry with the other Jews, but J answered my question already by stating that there is ample mixing, though she gave no statistics.
I guess the only way to find out would be to travel the length and breadth of Israel.  Ethiopian Jews are not self-styled, they are amongst one of the oldest groups of Jews on the planet.  I find the concept of Israel as a Jewish homeland to be extremely retrograde.  I’m the member of a religion that has it’s origins in a foreign (eastern) country as well, and when I want to visit my own “holy land” I go on a tourist visa as an American citizen.  I am not afforded any special rights over the natives of various religions just because I’m a member of the majority religion that has it’s “homeland” in that country.  So now we are going to start to divide the regions of the world according to religious preference and not native inhabitants?  It is crazy.

The real proof of Ziv’s pudding would be in who he choses to marry and breed with.  Can he put his money where his mouth is?  I’d like to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one. 

On a practical level when people of different ethnic backgrounds fall in love and mate it is not because they think their offspring will be more fit and intelligent than they are.  Emotions and hormones are involved and that’s about it.

For the guy from Gurgaon, a place that I once lived and worked in,  Indian people are not into inter-racial, inter-ethnic and inter-cultural breeding so the fact that some whites are migrating to India to work is not going to change that, at least any time soon.  The reason is, as you know being born there, Indians have a very long and ancient cultural history and people with deep roots are less likely to mix with rootless gypsies and hippies and their (often bastard and divorced descendents) with no culture that cannot trace their family trees, origins, nothing, which is what most white Americans are.

I read this blog thread today and how ironic that this is on page one, dated from 2 years ago…

When US Senator Barack Obama announced on an American TV Sunday morning talk show yesterday that he was considering running for the presidency in 2008, he sealed his fate.

Everything he does now will be judged in light of that and, I assure you, the Clintonistas well know how to deal with first term US Senators who display such ambition too soon. Without executive experience and with only two years’ national senatorial experience, Obama will be cut down to size so quickly it’ll make heads spin.

It shows how bright he is not to realize that the media excitement was about his announcement, not about the wonders of an Obama presidency. He just gave up 12 months of free publicity for 30 minutes of national TV yesterday.

Senators Biden, Levin, and Clinton are not impressed with this youngster, and he will gradually be edged out. All he really had going for him was an excellent speech at the national Democratic convention two years ago. He’s authored no substantial federal legislation, uncovered no national scandal, and carried out no major oversight investigation.

He’ll be gone politically by the end of 2007, never to return, unless he adopts the Harold Stassen tactic.

He spoke much too soon yesterday.

You’re dead on, Bo——The Lizard Queen is going tear Obama limb from limb.

Posted by Andy on Monday, October 23, 2006 at 11:13 PM

Almost exactly 2 years later to the day (3 days difference), and we’ve come a long way baby…...

(note the mention of Senator Biden)

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Posted by Armor on October 20, 2008, 10:26 PM | #

posted a few months ago:

I wish to clear up a common misunderstanding of Israel’s marriage laws, which one commenter thinks is racist. (... ... ...) The Jewish people is undergoing a great process of intermixing, mostly within the religious framework of Judaism, like all the peoples in the world.

A dictionary definition of religion = “A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny”.

Is judaism a religion in that sense?
How many Jews really believe in it? Not many, I think.


About the Ethiopians: If my figures are correct, 120,000 Ethiopians out of 7,282,000 Israelis would represent 1,65 % of the population.

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Posted by shawna on October 26, 2008, 03:57 PM | #

I found this"book review” by accident while browsing elsewhere on the net.  I began reading the “in depth” critique of the book.  I began to see a pattern of the critic taking reasonably mundane satements from the book, and finding as many semantical errors as possible with them. As I scrolled down, I began to see pictures, so I read the captions.  And lo and behold they are attempting to assess how attractive a newborn interracil infant is.  Like, I mean a few days old.  That is pretty bizarre, considering this is how they argue their points against the book.  I don’t know much about Heidi Klum and was not sure why this revewer calls her deranged, either.  So I googled it.  The first result I came up wit the The Christian Party sayig the same.  This is a very racist and hateful group with an apparent reverence for Hitler.  So, there you have it.

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Posted by Obama's baby mama on October 31, 2008, 11:05 PM | #

Forget all that, Shawna, click on page 1 of this thread and scroll down to the last statement about Obama from 2006.  Fast forward 2 years later - CLASSIC!

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Posted by smnytx on November 15, 2008, 07:57 PM | #

Please avoid anti-Semitic comments

That request is priceless.

Sub-text: “even though you and I know he’s just a dirty Jew, don’t let him know what haters we are, so we can get him here and take him apart”

Do you think he’s going to respond on a website that is so thoroughly racist and is so clearly without any scientific or academic merit whatsoever?  When I ran across the phrase “mental retard” I knew what I was dealing with here.

My second favorite quote is in the post immediately above mine…

The Lizard Queen is going tear Obama limb from limb.

Remember, though… the “lizard queen” is WHITE.  Not only did SHE not tear Obama limb from limb, neither did McCain or Palin.  Hmmmm - pretty amazing show for a man who exhibits “negroid” features (and therefore can be assumed to have a sub-average IQ). 

I have a whole lot of pity for you, and more for any children you may have.  Looking at race as you do, it’s got to be hard living in America right now, faced with the fact that WE WHITE PEOPLE will soon no longer be the majority. 

If ever a web-site proved that IQ is in no way correlative with race, this one is it.

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Posted by smnytx on November 15, 2008, 08:38 PM | #

Ah,  Mr. Ziv did respond - my error for not “enjoying” MORE of the comments here before posting my own comment.  Note, however: he didn’t bother to continue the dialogue, once the Jew-baiting commenced.

Can I also just mention a valiant attempt at logic by one Fred Scrooby?

In other words, since a blade of grass and a giant sequoia are on a continuum there is no such category as “trees”?  For all anyone knows, a tree might be a blade of grass?  (… and a Negro might be a white man, as well as a Chinaman an Australian Aborigine? ...)

Um, Fred?  dude, I know you hate this, but it turns out that all human beings are ONE SPECIES.  You may not have figured this out, but grass is not just a different species from giant sequoias, it is in a different PHYLUM.  PHYLA are just one step below KINGDOMS, and of those there are only a few.  Whether you all like it or not, every human belongs to the Animal Kingdom.

Therefore, comparing grass (megnoliophyta) to giant sequoias (pinophyta) is akin to comparing humans (members of phylum chordata) to oysters (members of phylum mollusca). 

So, exactly WHAT “continuum” would include grass and giant sequoias?  I guess one called “green stuff that grows out of the ground, by size”. 

If I believed in the opinions of this site, I would sure hate the fact that I apparently share a race with a mental giant like Fred.  Thankfully, I don’t believe intelligence is correlative with skin color or race.  The fact that people like Fred are devoted to the content of this site is demonstrative of the lack of intellectual rigor presented here.

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Posted by Guessedworker on November 15, 2008, 08:43 PM | #

smnytx: Do you think he’s going to respond on a website that is so thoroughly racist and is so clearly without any scientific or academic merit whatsoever?

But he didn’t respond because he can’t.  That’s the whole point.  His book is just another (and an especially vile) attack on Europeans from the folks with the tradition of subversion.

These were just my questions he fled from:-

Alon Ziv: We are on the cusp of a mixed-race explosion

Who is the “we” here, Alon.  Are your people resident, say, in Israel about to explode into sexual relations with Falashas or, indeed, Bantus?  No?  Well, are you agitating for the repeal of anti-miscegenation laws in Israel so all those good things you write about can get established in Jewish populations?  No?  Then, how on earth can you possibly be acting in good faith towards us?

You must know that your efforts to “talk about race in a real way” look just a tad like malice, as JR rather diplomatically puts it.  And, indeed, an effort to impell Europeans a little further towards racial extinction would not be a nice trick to play, would it?

So I think you should do us the honour of clarifying your position on this issue.  Should Caucasian Jews in Israel and elsewhere, as a matter of principle, pursue greater “vigour” by going the Bantu route?  Even if that “vigour” gravely damaged mean Jewish IQ, destroyed the whole basis of Jewishness as an inherited, not cultural, phenomenon and impoverished the Jewish people to black African levels?

A nice direct answer, please.

Posted by Guessedworker on Saturday, October 14, 2006 at 10:27 AM

and ...

Well, here anyway are a few more serious questions for Alon.

1) As you agree that race exists, do you also agree that the Boas-Montague-Gould-Lewontin-Diamond-Wise line on the non-existence of race, for example the following passage on race from Encyclopedia Brittanica ...

Genetic studies in the late 20th century denied the existence of biogenetically distinct races, and scholars now argue that “races” are cultural interventions reflecting specific attitudes and beliefs that were imposed on different populations in the wake of western European conquests beginning in the 15th century.

... was and is a Marxist scam?

2) Do you accept that Jewish intellectuals were disproportionately to the fore in that scam, and would you care to put forward an explanation for that?

3) Do you accept the validity of the genetic research that has found population clusters as well as clines, or are you a “clines only” man?  Because that’s just another way of denying race, which you say you don’t do.  If you are indeed a “clines only” man, how do you refute the research showing clusters?  Or do you just want to cherry-pick?

4) Steve Sailor’s VDare article on your opus states: Gregory Cochran told me that he and University of Utah population geneticist Henry Harpending once scanned the medical literature to see if interracial mating increased human fertility (due to hybrid vigor) or decreased it (due to genetic incompatibilities). They concluded that whatever net effect might exist was smaller than the statistical margin of error in the studies.

So, if mixed-race couples don’t produce more children than endogamous parents, on what basis can you compensate for their loss of parental kinship?

Would not this loss of parental kinship constitute a loss of fitness?

5) What hard evidence do you have that shows that, in the round, mixed race children are actually healthier than white children?  For example, what health benefits accrue from Bantu-European miscegenation that compensate for the known increase in mental health problems that afflict black-white mixed-race children and adolescents.

6) JR tells me that you took no account of ethnic genetic interests in your book.  Don’t even mention them.  But in this world of unidirectional migration the loss of fitness that results from loss of parental kinship plainly projects on Europeans in general as a loss of EGI.  How can exogamy possibly throw up “compensations” for something of which it is the cause?  It’s double-talk.

7) Now let’s fast forward to a future Zivworld.  Whaddya know, we’re all brown and, well, bigger and we spend one heck of a lot of time chasing that next great orgasm.  But what will have happened to the mean IQ of the West, Alon?  And its prosperity, civility, aesthetics, its culture of progress?  Any loss of fitness percolating through to your brain there?

8) Now a really tough test of integrity, Alon ... if you were ordered by an employer, say, to gather research evidence against hybrid vigour from second generations on, could you find any?  It’s interesting you see, because my local plant nursery breeds fuschias and camillas from original parental stock.  They keep these fabulous plants just for that purpose.  They must have found, don’t you know, that outbreeding depression reduces their livelihood.

Strange how humble plant-breeders know that only too well but you, an IQ 130 man I suppose, don’t.  Or perhaps you do but don’t want to tell us.

So which is it?  Could you find evidence against your own thesis of human hybrid vigour?  Did you look before you wrote your book, or did you merely cherry-pick?

And what might have been your reason for cherry-picking?

Posted by Guessedworker on Sunday, October 15, 2006 at 04:16

What you need to understand about the anger you see on this site is that it is righteous.  There is no word to describe the immensely long-standing multi-level attack on European Man by Jewish intellectuals (not that Ziv is an intellectual).  Taken together with the more mundane political and media attacks, the list today reads:-

Classical Marxism
Revolutionary internationalism
Critical Theory
Postmodernism
Freudianism
Second-wave Feminism
Second-Wave Libertarianism
Gay Rights/LBGT Rights
American Civil Rights
Human Rights
White Privilege/White Abolitionism
Agitation for open borders and mass immigration
Neoconservatism
Academic race-denial
Encouragement for white race-mixing (incl. Zivism)
Exploitation of the official holocaust narrative
Israel Lobby
Promulgation of hate speech law
Internet pornography
Negative imagery of whites on film and TV
Anti-white bias in media reporting

This ain’t love, pal.  It is racism.  We Europeans are the victims.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on November 15, 2008, 10:33 PM | #

“a man who exhibits ‘negroid’ features (and therefore can be assumed to have a sub-average IQ).”

No one at this site has ever said all Negroes have low IQs, any more than anyone here has ever said all Orientals, Jews, or Hindu Brahmins have high ones.  For you to interpret this site as saying that only shows how stupid you are, Smnytx.  So we learn right off the bat from this and other glaring evidence in your comment that you’re a complete dunce.

“Um, Fred?  dude, I know you hate this, but it turns out that all human beings are ONE SPECIES.  You may not have figured this out, but grass is not just a different species from giant sequoias, it is in a different PHYLUM.  PHYLA are just one step below KINGDOMS, and of those there are only a few.  Whether you all like it or not, every human belongs to the Animal Kingdom. [etc.]”

My point — which passed you by because you’re such a nitwit — was precisely that the same “reasoning” used to deny distinct races can be used to deny distinct species and all other distinct categories.

As for today’s humans all being one species, I consider that view wrong (and partly politically motivated):  I view today’s humans as consisting of at least two distinct species.

Come back when you’ve had an IQ boost.

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Posted by smnytx on November 15, 2008, 10:57 PM | #

I stand corrected.  Y’all aren’t stupid, you’re freaking INSANE.

Thanks, Fred - that two species thing is PERFECT.  I’m glad the world now knows the truth.  Won’t that be something when the world finally stops discriminating against white men and actually admits that you’ve been right all along?

Y’all are insane, and probably violent.  I won’t be visiting again.

187

Posted by Fred Scrooby on November 15, 2008, 11:02 PM | #

“I won’t be visiting again.”  (—Smnytx)

Best news I’ve heard all fricking week.

188

Posted by barbiplease on November 20, 2008, 06:54 AM | #

But anywayz….

J Richards:

I haven’t read the book but I do recall my anthropology professor from the early ‘90s who made a similar observation concerning biraciality and its connections to better genes, higher intelligence, and evolutionary symmetry. 

I’m no geneticist yet it makes perfect sense to me from a more subjective standpoint (see images below) as well as from a purely logical standpoint.

Inbreeding tends to reinforce certain genetic traits which, over the course of time (if continously reinforced and re-circulated back into the gene-pool), would make the gene pool increasingly stagnant: leading to an increasingly assymetrical look.

Not to mention that marrying someone from the same gene pool or marrying someone who is genetically similar increases the likelihood of having offspring who inherit two copies of deleterious recessive genes, such as mental retardation.

I have a white step-cousin down here in South Georgia who is that way (from inbreeding).

A biracial draws from a much wider gene-pool, hence, the higher likelihood of genetic symmetry and beauty.

Those who are assymetrical are generally not as attractive as those who are symmetrical in appearance.  At any rate, I’m not aware of any studies done to date on biraciality which could possibly support or refute your argument or even the other guy’s for that matter.  A great deal of your review, such as the concept of “exotherms” and the contention of Sub-Saharan Africans having an I.Q. of 62, sounds pseudo-scientific.

And the fact that you posted a very big picture of a very pretty white girl posing next to a very ugly black man in the middle of your article is very telling…..why even bother to put on any pretense of scientific objectivity? 

All you had to do was “ask” me and I would have gladly supplied you with the face of of “miscegenation” for your article!

“The Face of Miscenegation” (Half-Japanese, Half-White (Eurasian).

“Bi-raciality means way cooler than the rest of you!”

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Posted by Guessedworker on November 20, 2008, 07:30 AM | #

Barbiplease,

Do you know what the average IQ of Ashkenazic Jews is?

A biracial draws from a much wider gene-pool, hence, the higher likelihood of genetic symmetry and beauty.

Can you explain the selection pressure for genes for beauty over genes for ugliness?  Unless you can, that statement is simply supposition.

190

Posted by Captainchaos on November 20, 2008, 12:24 PM | #

Barbieplease: “But anywayz….”

Oooooh, it’s slinky, it’s sexy, it’s slang….itz “slankzy”.  Don’t you dare use that one, I’m getting a copy right.

“I could have any guy I want to take care of me materially,”

Yup, why fuck for free when you can fuck for money.

“...but I feel that my work is more important at the current time of writing.”

Are you taking donations?

“Perhaps someday I will return to normal society and date but at the time,”

Don’t take too long honey, a whore, er, I mean a muse/courtier has a shelf-life.  At 41 yours may well have expired.

“Not to mention that marrying someone from the same gene pool or marrying someone who is genetically similar increases the likelihood of having offspring who inherit two copies of deleterious recessive genes, such as mental retardation.”

People tend to marry, er, I mean fuck and produce off-spring with those who are similar to themselves in appearance, level of education, income and intelligence.  The gene-pool of the White race is sufficiently large to avoid the above described dysgenic outcomes.  It has gotten us this far, the highest civilization ever created by man.  What we need to do is preserve it.

Speaking of inbreeding, interesting case study:

“The settlement of Iceland began in 874 when, according to Landnámabók, the Norwegian chieftain Ingólfur Arnarson became the first permanent Norwegian settler on the island.”

“Today, Iceland has some of the world’s highest levels of economic and civil freedoms.[5] In 2007, Iceland was ranked as the most developed country in the world by the United Nations’ Human Development Index.[6] It is also the fourth most productive country per capita, and one of the most egalitarian, as rated by the Gini coefficient.[7][8] Icelanders have a rich culture and heritage, such as cuisine and poetry, and the medieval Icelandic Sagas are internationally renowned.”

Iceland’s total population: 313,376.  Native Icelandics: 291,942.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland#Demographics

See?  “Inbreeding” really does cut your throat, don’t it?

“I have a white step-cousin down here in South Georgia who is that way (from inbreeding).”

You are trash, if you don’t already know why don’t bother asking, you wouldn’t understand.

“A biracial draws from a much wider gene-pool, hence, the higher likelihood of genetic symmetry and beauty.” 

Is that why European models set the standard for beauty internationally, including in (gasp!) Japan?

“All you had to do was “ask” me and I would have gladly supplied you with the face of of “miscegenation” for your article!”

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You look like a cheap Tijuana back-alley ho.  Better get the money up front.

P.S. Have you ever fucked a Negro for a crack rock?

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Posted by Captainchaos on November 20, 2008, 02:58 PM | #

Here, read this, and then read the book, you dumb cooze (and don’t forget to get checked at the free clinic):

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-RichardLynnOnFemaleAndAsianIQ.htm

My [Richard Lynn]  book published in 2006 is Race Differences in Intelligence: An Evolutionary Analysis. Augusta, Georgia: Washington Summit Books (PO Box 3514, Augusta, GA 30914) ISBN 1-59368-020-1 pp. 318., US$37.95 HB), $20.95 (PB) (plus $6 for overseas orders). 
A review by Prof.J.P.Rushton in Personality and Individual Differences is given below.

Lynn’s book represents the culmination of more than a quarter of a century’s work on race differences in intelligence. It was in 1977 that he first ventured into this field – some would say minefield – with the publication of two papers on the IQ in Japan and Singapore. Both showed that the East Asians obtained higher means than white Europeans in the United States and Britain. These initial studies were criticised, but the present book lists 60 studies of the IQs of indigenous East Asians all of which confirm the original claim.

Hitherto studies of race differences in intelligence have been largely conducted and discussed in local contexts. In the United Sates they have been largely concerned with the IQs of whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asians and Native American Indians. In Australia they have been concerned with the low IQ of the Aborigines, and in New Zealand with the low IQ of the Maoris.. These differences have typically been explained by racism and discrimination of Europeans against minorities the legacy of slavery, although a number of writers have posited a significant genetic factor (Jensen, 1998; Rushton and Jensen, 2005). Lynn’s book differs in taking a global perspective and consists of a review more than 500 studies published world wide from the beginning of the twentieth century up to the present. He devotes a chapter to each of ten races, differentiated by Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza (1994) into “genetic clusters”, which he regards as a transparent euphemism for races.

His conclusions are that the East Asians (Chinese, Japanese and Koreans) have the highest mean IQ at 105. These are followed by the Europeans (IQ 100). Some way below these are the Inuit (Eskimos) (IQ 91), South East Asians (IQ 87), Native American Indians (IQ 87), Pacific Islanders (IQ 85), South Asians and North Africans (IQ 84). Well below these come the sub-Saharan Africans (IQ 67) followed by the Australian Aborigines (IQ 62). The least intelligent races are the Bushmen of the Kalahari desert together with the Pygmies of the Congo rain forests (IQ 54).

After the ten chapters setting out the evidence for each of the ten races there follows a chapter on the reliability and validity of the measures. These show that the studies have high reliability in the sense that different studies of racial IQs give closely similar results. For instance, East Asians invariably obtain high IQs, not only in their own native homelands but in Singapore, Malaysia, Hawaii and North America. To establish the validity of the racial IQs he shows that they have high correlations with performance in the international studies of achievement in mathematics and science. Racial IQs also have high correlations with national economic development, providing a major contribution to the problem of why the peoples of some nations are rich and others poor. He argues further that the IQ differences between the races explain the differences in achievement in making the Neolithic transition from hunter-gathering to settled agriculture, the building of early civilizations, and the development of mature civilizations during the last two thousand years.

192

Posted by barbiplease on November 21, 2008, 11:13 PM | #

Barbiplease,

Do you know what the average IQ of Ashkenazic Jews is?

Some reports estimate 112-115, which is a .75 SD higher than the average IQ.  A more recent study which claims to use more sophisticated methods argues that the actual SD for the Ashkenazic is roughly half that percentage.  And your point is?

Can you explain the selection pressure for genes for beauty over genes for ugliness?  Unless you can, that statement is simply supposition.

Posted by Guessedworker on Thursday, November 20, 2008 at 11:30 AM | #

I do not even know what you are talking about here.  Your question makes no sense. 

Are you making an assertion that there is a selection pressure for genes for beauty over genes for ugliness?  And that you wish for me to explain your assertion?

I will try to “explain” your assertion but you must first clarify some fuzzy vocabulary:

What constitutes “selection pressure” to you?  By “selection pressure,” are you referring to natural selection (which tends to encourage genetic diversity) or some socially-constructed selection process, such as ethnocentrism or eugenics (which tends to encourage genetic or “racial” “purity” or “uniqueness”)? 

What constitutes “beauty” and “ugliness” to you?  “Whiteness”?  “Symmetry”?  There are many different standards or interpretations for “beauty”; very few of which (if any) are quantifiable or universally-binding. 

With respect to human and animal facial features and human body types, the more acceptable and quantifiable measure today is “symmetry”; not “whiteness.”  And whereas “facial symmetry” exists in all populations, “whiteness” does not.  At any rate, “whiteness” is not any more associated with symmetry than “blackness” is. 

“Symmetry” does not appear to be any more prevalent in any one monoracial “group” over any other.  It occurs in all “races.”  However, based on all of my readings and anecdotal evidence, symmetry does appear to be more prevalent among those who are biracial or multiracial rather than monoracial.  I have not encountered this particular phenomenon being exclusive to “white people,” except perhaps in various claims made here which appears to be politically motivated to find scientific justifications to prove its racialist “point”—resorting even to pseudoscience if it must. 

At any rate, “beauty” is a subjective value referring to quality, not quantity, so in and of itself is not amenable to any scientific measurement or “proof” from a purely quantitative (objective) standpoint.  That said, “beauty,” from a purely aesthetic standpoint seems almost universally biased toward associating the quality of beauty with “symmetry”: not with “distortion” or “assymetry.”  This is found to be true irrespective of locality or group and even among babies, as well: who are shown overwhelmingly to spend longer durations gazing at human faces that are symmetrical than assymetrical irrespective of face’s “race.”

Unless you can, that statement is simply supposition.

If you are referring to my anecdotal proof for symmetry or hybrid vigor in humans, I don’t think there’s anyone here to dispute my empirical data (i.e., pictures above) or to contest this data by putting up their own mug shots as “counterproof” to show that I am “wrong” or “genetically inferior” to themselves.  I don’t think anyone has the guts to do so, frankly.  If you folks are so much more attractive, why don’t you put up your own mugshots (if you dare) and we can do a comparative analysis?

At any rate, I’m not aware of any scientific studies to date to prove conclusively one way or the other as to hybrid vigor among “groups” of multiracial people beyond individual or anecdotal accounts.  Thus, I submit my personal data to permit the viewer to draw his or her own conclusions subjectively, in light of the author’s lack of scientific credibility and lack of scientific objectivity.  This is evident in his various arguments (most of which appear to be objections which are irrelevent to the truth of Ziv’s claims) and in his deliberate use of images in which he attempts to go out of his way to find the best-looking and the worst-looking member of each “race” to put them together to “prove” his point by way of imagery or emotion.

All that anyone can truly ascertain from a scientific standpoint is that natural selection tends to discourage inbreeding and tends to encourage genetic diversity for the purpose of continuity and genetic fitness.  In terms of biraciality or heterosity, it is more genetically diverse than monoraciality or homogeneity.  Thus, according to the laws of probability and statistics, it is more likely that a biracial would exhibit these qualities of genetic fitness and symmetry over that of a monoracial.

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Posted by Desmond Jones on November 22, 2008, 12:09 AM | #

All that anyone can truly ascertain from a scientific standpoint is that natural selection tends to discourage inbreeding and tends to encourage genetic diversity for the purpose of continuity and genetic fitness.  In terms of biraciality or heterosity, it is more genetically diverse than monoraciality or homogeneity.  Thus, according to the laws of probability and statistics, it is more likely that a biracial would exhibit these qualities of genetic fitness and symmetry over that of a monoracial.

Except they don’t.

While the thought of searching for a potential mate at a family reunion might sound repulsive to some, researchers in Iceland report that “kissing cousins” may produce more children and grandchildren than unrelated couples.

Researchers at the deCODE Genetics company in Reykjavik mapped out kinship among all known Icelandic couples whose members were born between 1800 and 1965. They then compared the numbers of children and grandchildren descended from these 160,811 couples.

Researchers were shocked to find that for women born between 1800 and 1824, marriages between third cousins produced an average of 4.04 children and 9.17 grandchildren, while marriages between eighth cousins or more distantly related couples had averages of only 3.34 children and 7.31 grandchildren.

For women born between 1925 and 1949, with mates related at the degree of third cousins, the average number of children and grandchildren were 3.27 and 6.64, compared with 2.45 and 4.86 for those with mates who were eighth cousins, or more distantly related.

“These are counterintuitive, almost dislikable results,” said Dr. Kari Stefansson, senior author of the paper on the study.

Dislikable, because our intuition is that the more closely related you are to your mate, the higher the chances of passing along the unfortunate traits so often associated with inbreeding.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ReproductiveHealth/story?id=4258128&page=1

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Posted by barbiplease on November 22, 2008, 12:47 AM | #

Barbieplease: “But anywayz….”

Oooooh, it’s slinky, it’s sexy, it’s slang….itz “slankzy”.  Don’t you dare use that one, I’m getting a copy right.

But ANYWAYZ…  Next?

I could have any guy I want to take care of me materially,”

Yup, why fuck for free when you can fuck for money.

Wow, something I said or posted must have really hit a nerve with you to go on like that.  I guess you are pissed off because I have empirical proof of looking better than any of you and there’s nothing you can do to “prove” me wrong except to resort to outright lies.

Even

you

think I am more beautiful than you are; you just can’t bring yourself to admit that so you make up some bogus accusation of “fucking for money” without even so much as knowing me. 

Why so reactionary? 

Your mind is obviously in the gutter.  And since you are burning with desire to know about my “sex life”—the idea of “fucking” any of you sounds frankly disgusting to me..

I’ve actually chosen a life of celibacy and poverty for the past four years.  This time is being spent in a positive way for education, self-improvement, and spiritual growth via contemplation and study for as long as necessary.  I wouldn’t do this for a lifetime but I would highly recommend the path to others try it at least once in their lives if only temporarily.  Perhaps it might be a remedy or cure for those of you here who are caught up in so many lesser teachings.  Teachings which apparently only teach you to embrace hatred toward the rest of humanity.

“...but I feel that my work is more important at the current time of writing.”

Are you taking donations?

Donations for what?  My writing?  My music?  Please clarify.

“Perhaps someday I will return to normal society and date but at the time,”

Don’t take too long honey, a whore, er, I mean a muse/courtier has a shelf-life.  At 41 yours may well have expired.

Thank you, but I will take however long I like.  It’s one of the advantages of being free. 

Men my own age have started to look too old for me 10 years ago.  Everyone around me has “aged.”  Especially white people, who age faster than other races.  It’s kind of scary, actually—to be the only one left who looks youthful.  Not to say that I would be this way forever—but it’s one of the many advantages of being biracial, perhaps.

I can honestly say these things about myself and and prove it. I am sorry that you are having a hard time with that.

Everyone who meets me thinks that I am in my late 20s, btw.  I think it has to do with “hybrid vigor.” 

I have no interest in knowing about any of you personally but I see that many of you have taken the time to go to my blog.  Why is everyone so interested in me?  Do you honestly think that I would be interested in any of you personally beyond this or the other thread?

“Not to mention that marrying someone from the same gene pool or marrying someone who is genetically similar increases the likelihood of having offspring who inherit two copies of deleterious recessive genes, such as mental retardation.”

People tend to marry, er, I mean fuck and produce off-spring with those who are similar to themselves in appearance, level of education, income and intelligence.  The gene-pool of the White race is sufficiently large to avoid the above described dysgenic outcomes.  It has gotten us this far, the highest civilization ever created by man.  What we need to do is preserve it.

It’s unfortunate that your entire self-worth is contingent upon the survival of the “White race.”  What happens when it goes?

The “White race” will be no longer be the majority the UK and USA by 2050—perhaps even sooner.  Whatever will you do then?

What will become of this site, the “majority rights” site?  Will it then be a site geared for securing the rights of the non-white majority or will you be compelled to change the site name to “minority rights” instead to keep it “white only”?

Speaking of inbreeding, interesting case study:

“The settlement of Iceland began in 874 when, according to Landnámabók, the Norwegian chieftain Ingólfur Arnarson became the first permanent Norwegian settler on the island.”

“Today, Iceland has some of the world’s highest levels of economic and civil freedoms.[5] In 2007, Iceland was ranked as the most developed country in the world by the United Nations’ Human Development Index.[6] It is also the fourth most productive country per capita, and one of the most egalitarian, as rated by the Gini coefficient.[7][8] Icelanders have a rich culture and heritage, such as cuisine and poetry, and the medieval Icelandic Sagas are internationally renowned.”

Iceland’s total population: 313,376.  Native Icelandics: 291,942.

Ah, “The Blond Ambition”...

Sounds not much different from Japan which is also homogenous except that the average intelligence of Iceland is substantially lower than Japan (Iceland, 98; Japan, 105). 

Perhaps you are on to something that Iceland has reached a critical population mass so as to avoid the problem of inbreeding.  Nevertheless, it still doesn’t disprove anything that Ziv contends about biraciality and hybrid vigor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland#Demographics

See?  “Inbreeding” really does cut your throat, don’t it?

Inbreeding occurs in isolated regions having a low population.  Otherwise, it occurs in populations where racial intermarriage is forbidden.  The philosophy that you endorse would inevitably lead to inbreeding, considering the increasing racial diversity of the UK and the diminishing white population.

Simply because Iceland isn’t isolated enough doesn’t disprove the fact about inbreeding.  There are too many white people there for them to be concerned about it, at any rate. 

It seems to me that the threat of inbreeding would be more problematic in your home state, where white populations are diminishing rapidly.  Iceland doesn’t appear to have that problem, since they are 98% white. 

What will happen to your kind when most pure whites are gone or are “mongrelized”?  Will you be forced to turn to incest to keep the purity of your race?

“I have a white step-cousin down here in South Georgia who is that way (from inbreeding).”

You are trash, if you don’t already know why don’t bother asking, you wouldn’t understand.

Sounds to me that the vast majority of the whites here come from a less educated (more trashy) class than most Europeans, most of whom do not subscribe to your bigoted viewpoint.  Most of the white supremacists in America are less educated and more trashy, too.

“A biracial draws from a much wider gene-pool, hence, the higher likelihood of genetic symmetry and beauty.”

Is that why European models set the standard for beauty internationally, including in (gasp!) Japan?

You are living in yesteryear.  Times change.  And so too do standards for beauty.

Has anyone noticed that it has become increasingly difficult to identify models’ ethnicity? There was a time; politically correct ads went to great lengths to have an equal distribution of males and females who were black, white, Asian and Hispanic. Now there are moments when one can’t tell if they are looking at Jessica Simpson, Beyonce or Shakira. Being ethnically ambiguous is now a bonanza. Advertisers make no bones about it. They purposely seek out models with indeterminate features for their shoots.

In a 2003 New York Times column titled “Generation E.A.: Ethnically Ambiguous,” reporter Ruth La Ferla quoted Ron Berger, chief executive of New York’s advertising and trend research company Euro RSCG MVBMS Partners, “Today what’s ethnically neutral, diverse or ambiguous has tremendous appeal both in the mainstream and at the high end of the marketplace. What is perceived as good, desirable and successful is often a face whose heritage is hard to pin down.”

“All you had to do was “ask” me and I would have gladly supplied you with the face of of “miscegenation” for your article!”

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You look like a cheap Tijuana back-alley ho.  Better get the money up front.

P.S. Have you ever fucked a Negro for a crack rock?

Posted by Captainchaos on Thursday, November 20, 2008 at 04:24 PM | #

Jealous of my beauty, are we not?  Why so reactionary?

Again, it appears that my beauty frightens you to the point of making racist bogus remarks that are irrelevant.

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Posted by barbiplease on November 22, 2008, 03:09 AM | #

All that anyone can truly ascertain from a scientific standpoint is that natural selection tends to discourage inbreeding and tends to encourage genetic diversity for the purpose of continuity and genetic fitness.  In terms of biraciality or heterosity, it is more genetically diverse than monoraciality or homogeneity.  Thus, according to the laws of probability and statistics, it is more likely that a biracial would exhibit these qualities of genetic fitness and symmetry over that of a monoracial.

Except they don’t.

While the thought of searching for a potential mate at a family reunion might sound repulsive to some, researchers in Iceland report that “kissing cousins” may produce more children and grandchildren than unrelated couples.

Researchers at the deCODE Genetics company in Reykjavik mapped out kinship among all known Icelandic couples whose members were born between 1800 and 1965. They then compared the numbers of children and grandchildren descended from these 160,811 couples.

Researchers were shocked to find that for women born between 1800 and 1824, marriages between third cousins produced an average of 4.04 children and 9.17 grandchildren, while marriages between eighth cousins or more distantly related couples had averages of only 3.34 children and 7.31 grandchildren.

For women born between 1925 and 1949, with mates related at the degree of third cousins, the average number of children and grandchildren were 3.27 and 6.64, compared with 2.45 and 4.86 for those with mates who were eighth cousins, or more distantly related.

“These are counterintuitive, almost dislikable results,” said Dr. Kari Stefansson, senior author of the paper on the study.

Dislikable, because our intuition is that the more closely related you are to your mate, the higher the chances of passing along the unfortunate traits so often associated with inbreeding.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ReproductiveHealth/story?id=4258128&page=1

Posted by Desmond Jones on Saturday, November 22, 2008 at 04:09 AM | #

I have read that cousin marriage is actually quite commonplace throughout the world.  The question is, is it beneficial, harmful, or are the effects negligible?  And does this practice in fact produce genetically-superior children than biracial children?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3342040.ece

The deCODE study only reports an increased number of children born to third-cousin marriages vs. the number of children born to unrelated couples in Iceland.  This suggests that inbreeding promotes higher fertility or birth rates at best.  How healthy are these children compared to other children born to unrelated couples in Iceland, or compared to biracial or multiracial children, who are thought to be healthier than monoracial children due to their heterosity? 

What is the rate of genetic defects in these third-cousin offspring vs. offspring of unrelated partners in Iceland, or vs. multiracial or biracial offspring?  It’s really difficult to draw any conclusions whatsoever based on these facts alone with respect to the so-called hybrid vigor advantage that is bestowed to biracial children. 

How intelligent are the children of third cousins compared to biracial or multiracial children?  How symmetrical are the faces and bodies of the children of third cousins compared to biracial or multiracial children? 

Heterosis - Heterosis in humans

One study suggests that hybrid vigor may be associated with increased intelligence in humans. Nagoshi and Johnson (1986) found that children of Japanese-Caucasian cross-ethnic unions scored .26 SD higher on several cognitive tests than those from within-ethnic families, despite having virtually identical parental educational and occupational backgrounds (p. 204). The increase in scores tended to be higher on cognitive tests that were more g-loaded, suggesting that hybrid vigor improves g. To become more reliable, the study would have to match the intelligence averages of the parents as well as compute the intelligence scores of their children. Mingroni (2004) has argued that heterosis may be partially responsible for the Flynn effect.

The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study shows US children of African-Caucasian cross-ethnic unions score .47 SD lower on cognitive tests taken at age 17 than adopted children of Caucasian heritage, and .67 SD higher than adopted children of African heritage. (The average IQ of the adopting parents in this study was more than 1 standard deviation above the population mean of 100.) The exact interpretation of this study is disputed.

The Flynn effect is rather large, approximately 15 points of IQ gain in the past 50 years. That’s one standard deviation. It has been observed in every country where reliable measurements are available.

One could postulate the racial-mixing hypothesis in the US or Europe, but the Flynn effect is equally observable in countries like Japan, where racial mixing is almost non-existant.

Nutrition seems like a better candidate in most countries, but in the US - and especially the white population - nutrition has been at a very high level for well over sixty years. There must be some other explanation. I wish I knew.

Isolated by race, the 2007 black US population today does better on IQ tests than the white population did two generations ago.

The author of Freakonomics:

3) Mixed-race kids do have one advantage over white and black kids: the mixed-race kids are much more attractive on average.

Study indicates mixed race, physical symmetry correlate

http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/archives/id/21170/

David Zisser

Published: Monday, November 4, 2002

A recent study by UCLA Assistant Adjunct Professor of Biology Jay Phelan concluded that biracial people are perceived as more attractive than “uniracial” people because they have more symmetric features.

Symmetry, according to Phelan, reflects an organism’s developmental stability and is strongly associated with longevity, health and fitness.

Small random deviations from perfect symmetry in bilateral traits such as hands, ears and feet result in what is termed “fluctuating symmetry.”

Since only one gene codes for both the left and right side of an organism, the two should, theoretically, be identical – or symmetrical.

If they are not identical, something has gone wrong, according to Phelan.

Asymmetries, then, can be viewed as developmental noise.

“The gene instructions are not being played out the same way for both sides,” Phelan said.

There are two reasons for asymmetry. Either the gene is imperfect or the environment was tough, making proper development difficult.

An example of the environment’s effect on development is fetal alcohol syndrome, which can result in a 3 to 4 percent difference on both sides of the body, according to Phelan.

Symmetry, he found, was greater in heterozygous organisms. In other words, organisms are more symmetrical – and therefore potentially more “fit” – when their genes have two different alleles (for instance, one dominant allele and one recessive allele rather than two dominant or two recessive alleles).

Crossing organisms from different populations, he believed, would result in “hybrid vigor.” The theory was that their heterozygosity was making them stronger and healthier.

Genes produce enzymes that assist in bodily processes. When two slightly different enzymes are produced by heterozygous genes, the organism is “covered under a wider range of conditions,” he said.

Most humans are heterozygous in about 20 percent of their genes.

Assuming that biracial people are more heterozygous since they come from different populations (despite the debate surrounding the relative amounts of genetic variation within and among populations), Phelan started by measuring the symmetry of 99 UCLA student volunteers who were either biracial or uniracial.

Biracial people were defined as those whose mother and father were of different races, but each of their parents were uniracial. Both parents of the uniracial subjects were of the same race.

Phelan’s study concluded that biracial people were significantly more symmetrical than “uniracial” people. All 25 of the least symmetrical subjects were from uniracial groups, which were either Asian, black, Hispanic or white. Seven of the eight most symmetrical subjects were from biracial groups (Hispanic-white, Asian-white, black-white or Asian-Hispanic).

In addition, Phelan found that symmetry was about the same for all uniracial people no matter which group they were in, and about the same for all biracial people, regardless of racial background.

Phelan, however, did not want to stop merely with symmetry. He hypothesized that those who were more symmetrical would also be perceived as more attractive.

To determine attractiveness, 30 people then rated photos of the subjects who had been measured for symmetry on attractiveness, ranking them from one to seven (seven being the highest).

The results: Biracial people were perceived as significantly more attractive than “uniracial” people.

According to Phelan, this means that symmetry, and its correlate, attractiveness, are indications of fitness.

They are important for reproductive success because people are selected as mates partly based on such characteristics.

Becky Sweet, a fourth-year molecular, cell and developmental biology student, participated in the study as a first-year because it was a fundraiser for her sorority.

“Biracial people have certain disadvantages, (so) it’s nice to know we have certain advantages as well,” said Sweet, who is half Filipino and half white.

While she finds the research interesting, Sweet hopes that it will lead to more scientific studies.

“What genes control symmetry?” she asked as a potential research question.

The fact that biracial people are more symmetrical and attractive is “a nice conclusion,” she said, “but what’s next?”

Emily Shin, a third-year psychology student and president of the UCLA Hapa Club, also appreciates Phelan’s work.

“I think that it’s really great that people are doing research on hapa people, generally a group that’s marginalized,” Shin said.

She added, however, that there is some dissent in the hapa community about research like Phelan’s, which perpetuates the stereotype that hapas are on average, more attractive people.

“It makes hapa people, especially hapa girls, feel very objectified,” Shin added.

Like Sweet, Shin expressed interest in what kind of studies will come out of Phelan’s work.

Phelan is well aware of the controversy surrounding his work, particularly his use of race as a category for grouping subjects.

In the meantime though, Phelan hopes to follow up on his work by looking at the parents of his subjects for this study.

He hopes to confirm that the parents are of normal symmetry, and not symmetrical anomalies, in order to validate the idea that heterozygosity is responsible for the increased fitness and symmetry of biracial people.


Unless you can find similar comparative data on Icelandic children born to third-cousins, the study itself does not invalidate the concept of genetic fitness gained by genetic diversity and heterosity but only re-confirms some well-established facts:

Those who marry third cousins usually live in less populated rural areas.  This is true in Iceland as would be the case in United States and elsewhere.  The less people there are, the less number of potential mates to attract unless one develops and attraction for one’s own cousins or distant cousins.  It is also true that in rural areas throughout the world, siring a large number of offspring is considered more the norm than in urban areas.

Icelandic couples who are genetically unrelated live primarily in urban settings where siring a large number of offspring may be less desirable for a variety of reasons.  The most obvious being, it is more likely that the couples are more educated and each have a career.  They are therefore less likely to have a large number of children.  This is also the case in the United States and elsewhere.

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Posted by barbiplease on November 22, 2008, 04:37 AM | #

Here, read this, and then read the book, you dumb cooze (and don’t forget to get checked at the free clinic):
[...]

....His conclusions are that the East Asians (Chinese, Japanese and Koreans) have the highest mean IQ at 105. These are followed by the Europeans (IQ 100). Some way below these are the Inuit (Eskimos) (IQ 91), South East Asians (IQ 87), Native American Indians (IQ 87), Pacific Islanders (IQ 85), South Asians and North Africans (IQ 84). Well below these come the sub-Saharan Africans (IQ 67) followed by the Australian Aborigines (IQ 62). The least intelligent races are the Bushmen of the Kalahari desert together with the Pygmies of the Congo rain forests (IQ 54).....

I would be very wary of using such information to support the cause for “racial purity” or racial superiority.  The same study could be used to turn against you to support “East Asian purity” were the Chinese to become the next superpower and decide to use it against the comparatively less-intelligent caucasian immigrants in their nation.  Those in Hong Kong even score a higher average I.Q. of 107.  Biracial Asian-caucasians are even shown in one study to score higher than both whites and Asians, with a SD of .26 above monoracials from any race with similar socio-economic backgrounds.

What if biraciality became the majority and decided to legislate institutionalized racism based on these I.Q. scores against the pure white populations?  Or what if Caribbean minorities or African minorities became the majority in the UK and decided to use this study to legislate affirmative action and other social practices to “level the playing field”?  If they or other non-whites become the majority in the UK (which they will before long), it is reasonable that they would be disposed to think that these differences in I.Q. scores are the result of social inequities and thus would change policies in your nation to even the playing field.

There is no scientific consensus as to cause(s) for these I.Q. score differences between the various populations.  They may be related to genetic factors, environmental factors, or a host of other causes such as social inequities, malnutrition, or education or a combination of “all of the above.”  The education system in Georgia continues to be woefully underfunded.  The lack of funding, combined with segregation, produced many generations of disadvantaged black youths who score significantly lower on I.Q. tests.  Indicating that education and social background seem to continue to play a role in I.Q. scores despite efforts to make these tests universally applicable and “culturally-neutral.” 

The tests themselves may be even flawed.  Some critics argue that I.Q. tests are based on dated methodologies devised 50 years ago and are in need of a major overhaul.  Additionally, they do not accurately measure the I.Q. of those who have certain developmental disorders, such as autism and Asperger, who are often underestimated by these tests by as much as 50 points below their actual I.Q. 

There are some who argue that intelligence isn’t quantifiable.  In terms of Sub-Saharan Africa and other third-world nations, nutritional deficiencies and lack of micronutrients are thought to be a significant factor.  In America, black children during the 1970s and in previous generations were exposed to high amounts of lead, which are correlated with reduced I.Q. scores depending on amount of toxic exposure of the children growing up. 

The only thing that has been determined are that there are differences in scores between various populations or ethnic groups.  In any event, an I.Q. score of 75 is defined in psychiatry as borderline mentally-retarded.  An I.Q. score of 50 is regarded as full-blown mentally retarded.

The study above suggests that Sub-Saharan Africans and Australian Aborigines are somewhere in between full-blown mentally-retarded and borderline mentally-retarded. 

Most people are capable of spotting a mentally-retarded person out in public.  It’s not very difficult.  It wouldn’t take much longer to spot a borderline mentally-retarded person, either.  Usually, a mentally-retarded person will possess certain mannerisms and facial features that make it very obvious that he or she is afflicted with a mental disability.  In either case, whether borderline or full-blown mentally-retarded, they are not capable of living independently.  And they don’t look or act a thing like any Sub-saharan Africans whom I’ve met in person (who by contrast appear very normal in both mannerisms and adaptability to social rules to out any possibility of “mental retardation”).  I’d imagine this would also be the case for Australian Aborigines though I’ve never met any in person.

There is obviously something fundamentally flawed in these I.Q. tests themselves.

Let us also not dismiss the Flynn Effect, which, in spite of the author’s claim that its impact can only be seen in scores on the lower-ranges of I.Q., has still tracked an average overall intelligence increase in every developed nation around the world by about .3 points per decade from the 1920s until the 1990s.

Perhaps this fact is overlooked because it is incompatible with your basic worldviews, which is largely anti-African.  But the truth of the matter is that today’s African Americans have higher average I.Q. scores than whites from two generations ago.

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Posted by a Finn on November 22, 2008, 07:03 AM | #

Barbiplease: “... intelligence increase in every developed nation around the world by about .3 points per decade from the 1920s until the 1990s. ... But the truth of the matter is that today’s African Americans have higher average I.Q. scores than whites from two generations ago.”

- Barbi, it is about 3 points per decade, not 0,3. Two generations is about 40 years x 3 = 12 points, which means they have not reached the whites of two generations ago.

But, let’s see. Flynn effect rises almost exclusively the low end of the IQ’s. IQ tests of today have e.g. less practical science tasks and more 2 dimensional visual tests, corresponding to the increased TV and computer 2 dimensional practice of today. Peoples’ ability to solve practical science tasks have weakened, e.g. estimating water level in different size containers after dividing it according to rules. Add some increased schooling and the Flynn effect is imaginary.

I don’t care what IQ this or that group has. I want live with my people. I don’t want my people to be ruled by another people. I don’t want my people to rule other peoples. What you describe in your text is one of the endless threats waiting Europeans in multiracial societies and many has already materialized. Other races don’t need specified facts to legislate against us, in matter fact they don’t need facts at all. If necessary, they invent “facts”, using e.g. social construction theory.

Ps. As long as Finns beat east Asians (We have more or equal numbers of lower IQ immigrants) in Pisa tests, I am happy. smile I admit we have some advantage over other Europeans because of lower numbers of immigrants, but we are losing that fast.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on November 22, 2008, 09:03 AM | #

If “beauty is symmetry” why don’t Hollywood plastic surgeons sculpt movie stars’ faces to look exactly like symmetrical wart hog faces, symmetrical crocodile faces, or symmetrical orangutang faces?  Obviously beauty isn’t “symmetry.”

“Well no, we meant human beauty is symmetry of the human face, not the wart hog face.”

OK, why aren’t the Hollywood plastic surgeons sculpting movie stars’ faces to look exactly like symmetrical West-Central African Negro faces in all details?  Answer:  because symmetrical West-Central African Negro faces aren’t beautiful.

“Oh so I guess there’s something more to human beauty than symmetry.”

Looks like it, doesn’t it.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on November 22, 2008, 09:07 AM | #

If the misshapen features of the Elephant Man’s face had happened to come out perfectly symmetrical it would be a beautiful face according to the “beauty is symmetry” rule.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on November 22, 2008, 09:14 AM | #

The Hollywood and Haute Couture Jews and homosexuals are choosing more primitive-looking female faces for their stars and fashion models these days:  less feminine, even less human (more prognathic for example, hence more ape-like).  As to why they’re doing it, we can easily speculate.  Regardless of why, their efforts to shift public perceptions of beauty away from the Euro standard toward some other standard can be rejected.  No one has to welcome the Jewish and homosexual attempts to annihilate Euro civilization and genocide European peoples.  Remember Nancy Reagan’s campaign-againg-drugs slogan?  “Just say no.” 

Just say “No!” to the Jews and the homosexuals who are trying to harm us and all we hold dear in this life.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on November 22, 2008, 09:16 AM | #

campaign-against-drugs slogan

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Posted by a Finn on November 22, 2008, 11:43 AM | #

Addition to Barbiplease. Recent reports indicate that Flynn effect has stopped, maybe even reversed. If you thought that Flynn effect would lead to egalitarian results in IQ tests, you are wrong.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on November 22, 2008, 01:55 PM | #

Any readers whom Barbi through her misunderstandings has managed to confuse in regard to what constitutes harmful inbreeding and what doesn’t may find this MR.com entry a helpful antidote:

http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/kinship_and_fertility/

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Posted by Desmond Jones on November 22, 2008, 06:59 PM | #

The deCODE study only reports an increased number of children born to third-cousin marriages vs. the number of children born to unrelated couples in Iceland.  This suggests that inbreeding promotes higher fertility or birth rates at best.  How healthy are these children compared to other children born to unrelated couples in Iceland, or compared to biracial or multiracial children, who are thought to be healthier than monoracial children due to their heterosity?

Actually, the study tells us more.

For women born between 1925 and 1949, with mates related at the degree of third cousins, the average number of children and grandchildren were 3.27 and 6.64, compared with 2.45 and 4.86 for those with mates who were eighth cousins, or more distantly related.

It is unlikely that high rates of morbidity and possibly mortality appearing in third cousin marriages would result in a higher number of grandchildren. The study tells us that these offspring are healthy because their fertility rates are higher in the second generation.

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Posted by rudiger on November 28, 2008, 09:11 PM | #

tiger woods is mixed race and id he the next kate moss not a chance the racists who propogate mixed race as superior are fucked in the head compare Mr Wodds to a Calvin Klein model and any swedish male and see who is prettier. Ever seen the indian kid with two heads that’s down to the mixed race thing copies of genes and if that starts banging your woman then you know somethings wrong. watch bodyshock,extraordinary people,search bbc i-player or channel 4 for the special children people series kids with two heads and shit makes you glad to be whiite or uniracial.

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Posted by IHaveBiracialHair on December 01, 2008, 08:05 PM | #

In reference to your article, I don’t know about newborn babies, but this kid…

http://celebritybabies.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/15/heidi_klum_070715_11_cbb.jpg

looks pretty cute.

So does this one.

http://www.babygeartoday.com/wp-content/2008/06/babygeartodaycom-heidi-klum-and-johan.jpg

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Posted by IHaveBiracialHair on December 17, 2008, 09:08 PM | #

tiger woods is mixed race and id he the next kate moss not a chance

Well, Kate Moss is a model….and Tiger Woods is a golf player. So it’s pretty safe to say that Tiger Woods is not the next Kate Moss, nor is he trying to be. And though I realize Kate Moss’s actual physical beauty isn’t the point of your argument, I’ve never seen her as particularly attractive. But that’s just me.
(http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/00557/kate_moss_smile_BM__557169g.jpg)

[I assumed “id” meant “is.”]

the racists who propogate mixed race as superior are fucked in the head compare Mr Wodds to a Calvin Klein model and any swedish male and see who is prettier.

Ignoring the two unnecessary direct insults, what you’re saying is a matter of opinion. (Remember, you’re still comparing a golf player to a model.) By the way, are Swedish males somehow superior to any other kind of males? Like French or Dutch for instance? Just curious.

Ever seen the indian kid with two heads that’s down to the mixed race thing copies of genes and if that starts banging your woman then you know somethings wrong. watch bodyshock,extraordinary people,search bbc i-player or channel 4 for the special children people series kids with two heads and shit makes you glad to be whiite or uniracial.

I just googled a two headed Indian baby and the one I found ( http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4549608&page=1 ) was from a small rural village in India. Inbreeding results in inferior genetics, and according to Alon Ziv, a lot of inbreeding occurs in…...........small villages! The article says nothing about this child being of mixed race, unless you’ve got an article referring to a different kid I should know about.

It seems like you’re indirectly saying that Indian people somehow have inferior genes. Well, first of all, people of all races are still people, and I doubt they’d like you referring to any one of them as “that,” even if they are “banging your woman,” as you so eloquently put it.

I don’t know where you got the idea that the people on these shows you’re talking about are either not white or multiracial. Basically, I’m guessing (though it’s hard to make out) that you’re saying minorities and mixed race people breed “inferior” offspring, but white people never do.

 

I won’t even start on that. Use your head for a minute, and you’ll see how little sense your whole post makes. Everyone else should too.

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Posted by Kapil on April 16, 2009, 01:24 PM | #

Interesting discussion. It’s difficult to agree with everything in this article even though I understand where your concern lies. In my observation, race-mixing between Whites and upper-caste Indians does not create ugly-looking, deformed individuals such as shown here. On the contrary, some of the most attractive individuals in the Glamour world happen to fall in this category: Lisa Ray (Indian father/Polish mother), Norah Jones (Indian father/American mother),  Indira Varma of Kama Sutra fame (Indian father/Swiss mother),  Dia Mirza (German Father/Indian mother), Katrina Kaif (Indian Father/British mother), Rohit Bal -hell he’s blonde-blue eyes (Indian Father/White mother). Also, almost all these individuals have above par IQs and are very successful in life. In fact, none of the Indian-White mixes I met in my own life seemed to be unpopular or unsuccessful in any way; they happen to be high-achievers and extremely talented. These people kinda get the best of both genes in all possible ways. So, your hypothesis clearly doesn’t apply in this case.

Also, upper caste Indian-White mixes have similar medical formations for example, identical bone marrow structure. All this established the fact that Indians are also racially Caucasian although varying in colour from dark brown to olive-skinned and even light-skinned. There’s very little genetic difference between a light-skinned Indian and an olive-skinned one. They mostly come from the same parents! 

In summary, any race-mix between high-caste Indians and Whites turns out to be way better than what you’d get from something like White/Negro or even Eurasians (e.g. White/Japanese). You can say this is my own inherent bias but I’d say it’s more about how genetics works. Just because you don’t like race-mixing means nothing as long as you accept that the phenomena of hybrid vigour is not falsehood. Even in plants and animal kingdom, many cross-mixing experiments have led to excellent results that are right there before. Wolf-dogs such as Alsatians, several varieties of cotton and potato -they’ve all been created by what you’d call “interracial mixing”.

Some forms of mixing are good. Some are bad.

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Posted by indians on May 04, 2009, 07:05 AM | #

Posted by Kapil on April 16, 2009, 05:24 PM | #

All this established the fact that Indians are also racially Caucasian although varying in colour from dark brown to olive-skinned and even light-skinned. There’s very little genetic difference between a light-skinned Indian and an olive-skinned one. They mostly come from the same parents!

Indians are not racially caucasions!

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Posted by indians on May 04, 2009, 07:20 AM | #

Posted by indians on May 04, 2009, 11:05 AM | #

Posted by Kapil on April 16, 2009, 05:24 PM | #

All this established the fact that Indians are also racially Caucasian although varying in colour from dark brown to olive-skinned and even light-skinned. There’s very little genetic difference between a light-skinned Indian and an olive-skinned one. They mostly come from the same parents!

India is a large country with people of different racial heritage and not all indians share the same heritage/ancestory/race as is evident from the variance in there apperance so to say indians are caucasions as if the whole of india is caucasion is nonsense and i dont know what indians you are talking about but the majority look indian to me the only indians who look anything but indian to me are the muslim kashmiris from whoose appearance it is evident they are of a different racial stock who by the way as far as Im concerned from the ones i have seen are also simply heavenly beautifull, deadly beauty.

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Posted by DoesnotMatter on May 30, 2009, 03:58 AM | #

Offspring are supposed to be genetically different than their parents. In a recent study Women preffered the smells of men that had the most different immune system than their own which proves that we are programmed to choose a partner most different than ourselves to reproduce because (like alon ziv said) the children are more likely to be healthier. The Heidi klum and Seal example i think was an unfair comparison because usually mixed kids are attractive if they have attractive parents from different races. If they have ugly parents from different races than ofcoarse that will belittle the likelyness of an attractive offspring. But Seal is not attractive and Heidi Klum’s daughter(who is full whitte) is not very attractive either. The point being is that two “attractive parents” from different races have a higher chance of producing a healthier prettier offspring than two “attractive parents” from the same race(ofcoarse there are always exceptions). Usually good looking pure raced kids are produced randomely from sometimes ugly parents and attractive people make ugly kids…Why? Maybe Alon does have a point and larger genepools do have a large effect. Here’s some examples. Look it up. The beautiful Demi Moore and Handsome Bruce Willis make a hideous Rumer Willis. Gross. But Why? They are both attractive. And what about Goldie Hawn daughter. Yes Kate Hudson. She’s nice but Ugly(not extremely). What about John travolta and his model wife? He was also unlucky. I could go on and on throughout the list of beautiful celebs making ugly babies but im sure you get the point.

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Posted by Guessedworker on May 30, 2009, 04:13 AM | #

DoesnotMatter,

The smell test was replicated in a TV programme by Prof Winstin, as I recall.  The point was that we are evolved to choose a mate with as different an immune package from ourselves so as to better combat the dangers from disease inherent in our particular environment of evolutionary adaptiveness.  It would be no use for Scandinavians to develop immunity to diseases confronting aboriginals in Australia.  The smell test revealed something that functions within-tribe only.

Most people seem not to like the smell of genetically distant races, btw.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on May 30, 2009, 07:37 AM | #

DoesNotMatter and EA Steve are examples of the kind of retard you get when you have an anyone-can-comment policy, but the good thinkers you also get more than make up for the assholes, so I agree with GW there’s something to be said for not screening all comments.  But someone like EA Steve really pushes the limits on that reasoning, I admit.

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Posted by John on July 23, 2009, 10:29 PM | #

Thanks for exposing another white-hating Jewish extremist, posing as a good, science-loving, realist.

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Posted by John on July 23, 2009, 10:38 PM | #

I will note, that as far as inbreeding is concerned, the Amish seem to have a lot of unattractive, heavy, odd-looking people…..and I am pretty sure this is due to inbreeding between too small of a gene pool.  That is the problem of having a closed community that is too small to breed with non-relatives.  However, white nations do not have such a problem, and should keep out non-whites…...no immigration of non-white…period.  The author, by the way, totally leaves out, from what I can tell from the review of his book, all of the strife (crime, violence, etc.) associated with blacks.  Why?  Really, why would any sensible white breed with a person on a much lower rung of the cultural ladder?!  It is cultural genocide.

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Posted by Janice Ma on July 27, 2009, 11:55 AM | #

This is one of the most racist articles I’ve ever seen.  I real doubt very much that Heidi Klum is ‘deranged’.  How dare you make such slanderous comments about someone you don’t even know?  You’re probably judging her husband’s face by the fact that he had a disease which destroyed part of it.  Thanks for being so kind!  The baby had a couple of bad picture days.  I’ve seen recent pictures of him.  He looks much cuter now.  And by the way, how cute are you?

Hybrid vigor does work.  I can testify to that.  My family has married out for 6 generations.  We are English, German, Jewish, Scots, Native American, Chinese and Dutch (that’s counting in my grandkids).  We have relatives who are black, Japanese and Mexican.  We’re healthy, smart and with the addition of my husband’s Chinese genes I’ve added beauty to the family (I considered us just slightly above average in looks before that). 

My youngest granddaughter is the best.  Broad-shouldered, blond haired, pale gold skin: she looks like a viking queen.  She is drop dead gorgeous.  People stop and stare.  Also she’s a straight A student.  This is hybrid vigor.  And I forgot to mention my daughter, also beautiful (but definitely not a Viking queen-small), a child prodigy, Ph.D. in Bio-Physics and an MD.  She’s a practicing Radiologist, possibly the best in the state.  Her favorite subject was quantum mechanics, she can write. sing, paint, too many talents, only one her, not enough time.  So, finding the politics of scientific research unpleasant, she went into private practice.

You revealed your real motivations in your description of Heidi Klum and her child.  That was so distasteful.  It revealed your true racist agenda.

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Posted by Darren on July 27, 2009, 04:12 PM | #

Hybrid vigor does work.  I can testify to that.

How do you know that is an example of hybrid vigor though? I can point out many examples of racially pure white families that are incredibly successful, good-looking, and etc. I could just as well say that their success is attributable to racial purity as you claim that yours is based on miscegenation.

I can also say with confidence that the offspring of black-white relationships have actually, on average, lower IQ than the white parent.

On the other hand, the results of East Asian - white relationships would tend to have higher IQ as compared to the white parent due to the higher average IQ of East Asians, but that has nothing to do with hybrid vigor.

It revealed your true racist agenda.

You have revealed your genocidal agenda through your post. What is your response to my charge?

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Posted by Janice Ma on July 29, 2009, 12:44 PM | #

Scooby reveals his true racist agenda by referring to my husband as a ‘Chinaman’.  This is a term that is traditionally used in a derogatory manner.  People who truly have any kind of real argument to put forward do not have to resort to these types of measures.  So pathetic.  I wonder how your ‘white’ family would stack up to my ‘this that and the other’ family. I didn’t get to the rest of them yet.  I have Japanese, Mexican and black relatives also.  We have doctors, scientists and my late father-in-law was an industrialist and senator in Taiwan (and no, he was not one of those one sees on tv having fights).  The truth is though there is no argument to justify liking inbreeding.  It sooner or later leads to recessive genes displaying themselves. 

Another thing—I read one website where another idiot had seen one family where one mixed kid was not beautiful.  Give me a break!  I have seen hundreds of mixed kids, kids that are one half, kids that are one forth, like my granddaughters.  It does continue to have effects.  I know it because, being only a bit over average looking, there is no way I would have such beautiful kids and grandkids otherwise.  I’m amazed every time I look at them.

The mixed phenomena, from my own perspective, appears to be happening mainly among two groups, the poor and the very educated.  Most of those whom I have known have been of the latter group.  Most have been Asian/white mixes.  Most of the black/white and Mexican/white and Mexican/black have been from the former group.  I’ve watched the children of both groups.  Environment makes such a difference.  The ones from the poor group tend to be good, smart students, etc. till about the age of 12 and then the bad environment usually gets them. 

Our society abandons its children and then blames them when they get in trouble.  What are we doing to ourselves, to our mixed and our unmixed?

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Posted by Mark Ijsseldijk on July 29, 2009, 01:21 PM | #

Scooby reveals his true racist agenda by referring to my husband as a ‘Chinaman’.  This is a term that is traditionally used in a derogatory manner.  People who truly have any kind of real argument to put forward do not have to resort to these types of measures.  So pathetic.  I wonder how your ‘white’ family would stack up to my ‘this that and the other’ family. I didn’t get to the rest of them yet.  I have Japanese, Mexican and black relatives also.  We have doctors, scientists and my late father-in-law was an industrialist and senator in Taiwan (and no, he was not one of those one sees on tv having fights).  The truth is though there is no argument to justify liking inbreeding.  It sooner or later leads to recessive genes displaying themselves.

Your husband is a Chinaman and he doesn’t belong in Western countries.  Neither do you, you are a source of genetic pollution.

As for the “inbreeding” part:  Where is your proof?  I always hear people say that Europeans are “inbred”.  The incidence of congenital defects ought to be quite high then, yes?  Why isn’t it, then?  Looks like your hypothesis is as weak as your mind. 

Plus, if intellect and creativity are European traits (and they are), I’ll take my “inbreeding” thank you.  We don’t need the conformist genes of Asia in our pool, nor do we need the increased incidence of alcoholism that comes with it.  Nor do we need the unattractive slant-eyed features.  Our current “inbred” condition is fine with me.

From what I’ve seen inter-racial mating usually produces psychotic, mentally-defective offspring.  Part of that due to the confusion of the races, and part of it due to the fact that their parents, race-mixers, are already mentally defective.

You coal-burners always defend race mixing because you and your children have an incentive to do so.  And almost all of you are sick-minded and want us all to turn into a brown mongrel race.  Who’s the real racist?  You hate your own whiteness and hate us for loving our identity as whites.

Another thing—I read one website where another idiot had seen one family where one mixed kid was not beautiful.  Give me a break!  I have seen hundreds of mixed kids, kids that are one half, kids that are one forth, like my granddaughters.  It does continue to have effects.  I know it because, being only a bit over average looking, there is no way I would have such beautiful kids and grandkids otherwise.  I’m amazed every time I look at them.

Bollocks anecdotal nonsense.  “I’ve seen the benefits up close.”  Well, forgive us if we are reluctant to join your mongrel-breeding experiment.

The mixed phenomena, from my own perspective, appears to be happening mainly among two groups, the poor and the very educated.  Most of those whom I have known have been of the latter group.  Most have been Asian/white mixes.  Most of the black/white and Mexican/white and Mexican/black have been from the former group.  I’ve watched the children of both groups.  Environment makes such a difference.  The ones from the poor group tend to be good, smart students, etc. till about the age of 12 and then the bad environment usually gets them.

Marxism.  “The environment determines ability.”  No, human biology does that.  Many blacks and mexicans are criminal scum and their poor genetic material passes to their mongrel offspring.  Conversely, many Asians are conscientious and hard-working and their mongrel offspring inherit these traits.  But even a basic knowledge of heredity escapes you because you are a weak-minded female who prefers to believe Jewish fairy tales than learn science.  You are a useful idiot for them, nothing more.

Our society abandons its children and then blames them when they get in trouble.  What are we doing to ourselves, to our mixed and our unmixed?

Please, the dissolution of the nuclear family was premeditated by Judeo-Marxists and willingly implemented by little lemmings like you.

Fuck off.  The time will come when your kind aren’t welcome anymore.

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Posted by Janice Ma on July 29, 2009, 01:50 PM | #

Are you really listening to yourself?  Why so many derogatory statements?  Why do you hate others so much?  Why the bad language?  And your last sentence.  Have you considered the implications of that last sentence?  What kind of world would we have if that last sentence were to come true?  Noone would be safe, not me, not you, not my children, not yours.  People often think that if rules were different, if governments were different, it would favor them.  White racists, for example, think if they were in charge things would be great for them (although actually things have already been that way for centuries in most of the world so why do white people complain so much? Color me puzzled.).  But what if the guy if charge didn’t like YOU in particular?  Or what if your child became ill and a white racist government (like the Nazis) had already killed the black doctor who would have discovered the cure?  This kind of racism is never the answer to anything.

What was that about coal burning?

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Posted by Desmond Jones on July 29, 2009, 03:14 PM | #

White racist governance…well the Congo is so much better off since the Belgians left.

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/thegreatestsilence/index.html

How many black doctors did the Nazis kill? How many cures were discovered by black doctors?

The Nazis, the most effective cure for the common cold.

Michael Jackson, killed by a black doctor seeking a cure for insomnia.

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Posted by Q on July 29, 2009, 03:54 PM | #

“Or what if your child became ill and a white racist government (like the Nazis) had already killed the black doctor who would have discovered the cure?”

Do you by chance recall the Bakke case? Yes you say? Well here is what happened to the Black affirmative action incompetent that displaced Bakke:

And prominent among the members will be the great Patrick Chavis, who displaced Allen Bakke. Here’s a Jeff Jacoby column from about a decade back, posted on one of Covington’s lists. The title, I assume, is HAC’s:

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION POSTER BOY SCREWS UP

On April 30, 1996, Senator Edward Kennedy vigorously defended racial preferences in a statement to the Senate Labor and Human Resources Committee. “Affirmative action has paid enormous dividends in the medical context,” he declared, suggesting that the beneficiaries of race-conscious university admissions are “likely in later life to ... benefit their professions and the communities in which they live.”

He offered proof. “Dr. Bernard Chavis is a perfect example,” Kennedy said. “He is the supposedly less qualified African-American student who allegedly ‘displaced’ Allen Bakke at the University of California-Davis, and triggered the landmark case. Today, Dr. Chavis is a successful ob-gyn in central Los Angeles, serving a disadvantaged community and making a difference in the lives of scores of poor families.” (In fact, Chavis’s first name is Patrick, and he lived not in central LA, but in Compton, a close suburb.)

Kennedy is not the only one to make Chavis a poster boy for affirmative action. Anti-Proposition 209 activists in California, like student-radical-turned-politician Tom Hayden, and Connie Rice, counsel to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, frequently cited Chavis during last year’s volatile campaign.

Writing in _The Nation_, Hayden and Rice noted that while Allen Bakke was now an anesthesiologist in Minnesota, Chavis was “providing primary care to poor women” in a mostly black community.

“Bakke’s scores were higher,” they admitted, “but who made the most of his medical school education? From whom did California taxpayers benefit more?” It’s a question they now probably wish they hadn’t asked. Eight weeks ago, warning of Chavis’s “inability to perform some of the most basic duties required of a physician,” the Medical Board of California suspended his license.

Administrative law Judge Samuel Reyes found Chavis guilty of gross negligence and incompetence in the treatment of three patients—one of whom died at his hands. “Letting him continue to engage in the practice of medicine” the judge ruled, “will endanger the public health, safety, and welfare.”

The legal language of the judge’s interim order barely conveys the horror of what Chavis inflicted last year on Yolanda Mukhalian, Valerie Lawrence, and Tammaria Cotton. On May 11, 1996, just days after Kennedy sang his praises, Chavis performed a simple liposuction on Mukhalian. (Though specializing in obstetrics, Chavis’s practice increasingly focused on liposuction. His training in the procedure was a four-day course at the Liposuction Institute of Beverly Hills—only half of which he completed.) Mukhalian’s surgery left her vomiting, sweating, and urinating helplessly as, in the court’s words, “blood gushed down her pants leg.”

But rather than get her to a hospital, Chavis took her to his home. She lay there bleeding for 40 hours, yet Chavis provided virtually no supervision or medical care. She returned to his office on May 14, still bleeding and in pain. Chavis prescribed heat packs and a massage.

Two days later, she was worse—still bleeding, in extreme pain, and growing delirious. He didn’t return her calls. Nor did he examine her when she returned once more on May 17. By June 8, Mukhalian was in St. Francis Hospital with a severe abdominal infection. She was badly scarred, and had lost 70 percent of her blood. By some miracle, she survived.

A similar miracle must have saved Valerie Lawrence, whose story is almost identical to Mukhalian’s: a botched liposuction, massive bleeding, shocking postoperative neglect. But Tammaria Cotton wasn’t as lucky. When Chavis performed her liposuction on June 22, her blood pressure plummeted and she complained of difficulty breathing. “If you can talk, you can breathe,” Chavis reportedly told her.

As her frightened husband watched, “reddish fluid” leaked from her body for hours, pooling on the floor. Instead of administering emergency treatment, however, Chavis vanished. By early evening, Cotton was in cardiac arrest. She died en route to the hospital.

This is Kennedy’s “perfect example” of an affirmative action success. By himself, Chavis isn’t an argument against racial preferences. Single examples do not constitute data. He is, however, a reminder of something Kennedy and the others can’t seem to grasp: Minority communities and poor families don’t need black doctors. They need GOOD doctors. And when universities admit medical students on grounds other than academic ability, they will turn out fewer doctors who are good.

In its 1978 Bakke decision, the Supreme Court approved the system that put Patrick Chavis in medical school: lower academic standards for most black students in exchange for racial “diversity.” The result is that black students for 20 years have been failing the national medical boards—the leading measure of medical school achievement—far more often than their peers. A study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that while 88 percent of white students pass the exam, only 49 percent of black students do. The disparity is caused almost entirely by lower admissions standards. Minority students admitted without regard to race rarely fail their boards. The cost of medical affirmative action isn’t theoretical. It is paid in human suffering—sometimes in human lives. Maybe Kennedy and Hayden don’t understand how. Tammaria Cotton’s widower does.

(Jeff Jacoby is a Globe columnist.)

http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/web_site_started_exclusively_for_black_doctors_dont_expect_an_uproar/

Unacceptable, unforgivable .... at least it is for normal people.

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Posted by Lurker on July 29, 2009, 09:56 PM | #

a white racist government (like the Nazis) had already killed the black doctor who would have discovered the cure?

Oh Janice please, listen to yourself. Its painful.

If anything one could make the case that large scale racial mixing is killing off the white doctors of the future, the ones who really would have discovered cures for things. The ones who will never be born because they are now half-black or half-Chinese.

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Posted by Mark Ijsseldijk on July 30, 2009, 03:01 PM | #

Are you really listening to yourself?

Quite.

Why so many derogatory statements?

Race mixers are worthy of derision.

Why do you hate others so much?

Ha ha.

Why the bad language?

Past your bedtime is it?

And your last sentence.  Have you considered the implications of that last sentence?  What kind of world would we have if that last sentence were to come true?  Noone would be safe, not me, not you, not my children, not yours.

Wrong.  I don’t have mongrel children nor do I sleep with non-whites.  The world would be safe for
Aryans.  Not for mongrels, nor for race-mixers.  I don’t know how much clearer I can make it.

People often think that if rules were different, if governments were different, it would favor them.

Tard.  If we founded a government it would favor us.  Like the NS in Germany did.  Are you that fucking simple?

White racists, for example, think if they were in charge things would be great for them (although actually things have already been that way for centuries in most of the world so why do white people complain so much? Color me puzzled.).

And here’s the Marxism, folks.  This cunt knows nothing of history and presumes to lecture us about “the evil history of white folks.” 

Come back when you grow a brain, cunt.

But what if the guy if charge didn’t like YOU in particular?  Or what if your child became ill and a white racist government (like the Nazis) had already killed the black doctor who would have discovered the cure?

Don’t make me laugh.  A black inventor?

This kind of racism is never the answer to anything.

You are a disgrace.

What was that about coal burning?

Well, I didn’t want to say it:  Your genitals have borne non-whites and you are polluted for life.  So coal-
burning works well enough as a descriptor.

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Posted by Janice Ma on July 30, 2009, 04:24 PM | #

Hi fellas, I’m back for one last attempt at this.  Listen, you think you hate me and all the mixed people out there.  What’s really causing your hatred is people having more than you.  And on that subject, well, there’s going to be fewer and fewer of us having more than you because more and more of us are going down and do you know why?  It’s because a group of guys who are almost entirely white are screwing the rest of us.  These are a small shadowy elite group of corporate owners who brought us out-sourcing, who brought us illegal aliens, who Bill Gates got green cards for so they could take away some of the still good paying educated jobs that were left.  They took away all the jobs, caused more unemployment, more homes to be lost….. God only knows where it will end.  I’ve read predictions that it will end in riots and a military dictatorship.  Look into your hearts and ask yourself—isn’t the real source of your hatred the fact that you’re not making the kind of money that you think you should be making?  And you’re right!  This economy is f***ed up!  It’s screwing around with people’s lives and their heads.  Just think about that, okay?

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Posted by torgrim on July 30, 2009, 05:24 PM | #

‘‘isn’t the real source of your hatred the fact that your not making the kind of money you think you should be making?”, Janice Ma-

NO, and ‘hatred’, is your conception, not mine. If this was only about money, I would not respond to your post. This is about replacing a people on a massive scale. Have you ever seen the projection of population for the year 2035 for the US? It was a rounded curve, now thanks to the 1965 Immigration Act brought to us by a sinister plotting elite and their lackys, the ‘Curve’ is now at a 40 degree angle and projecting a Turd World future for N.America.

Genetics produces culture.

Just take a look at the hatred displayed here…
http://www.sullivan-county.com/wcva/Paulder.htm

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Posted by Guessedworker on July 30, 2009, 05:33 PM | #

Mark,

We have a commenting rule that requires those on our side to equit themselves with civility.  Don’t lose your cool in this way again, please.  This is not the board for that kind if indiscipline.

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Posted by Janice Ma on August 01, 2009, 01:59 AM | #

Guys, just a quick note to thank you for your help.  You’ve been fantastic!  You’ve completely convinced my editor that I am more than capable of writing from the viewpoint of a nutty left-wing white female.  She thought I couldn’t do it.  I told her I could write from any viewpoint.  Typical, isn’t it?  Anyway, thank you!  Your over the top responses totally convinced her.

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Posted by Harsh_Henry14W on August 01, 2009, 06:28 AM | #

I take it you are a nutty left wing white male instead?!?!?!

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Posted by White Preservationist on August 01, 2009, 11:31 AM | #

Janice Ma on July 30, 2009: Look into your hearts and ask yourself—isn’t the real source of your hatred the fact that you’re not making the kind of money that you think you should be making?  And you’re right!  This economy is f***ed up!  It’s screwing around with people’s lives and their heads.  Just think about that, okay?

You make a few good points in your post.

That’s why many of us here on this website are fervently opposed to Jewish-led/Jewish-imposed hypermaterialism and the ‘Worship of Mammon.’  A great book on this topic is entitled Thinkers of the Right: Challenging Materialism by Kerry Bolton.  Read it sometime Janice, you might learn a few things.  You can read an excerpt from that book at the following link - http://www.toqonline.com/2009/06/nietzsche-and-spengler/

Here’s a pertinent selection from that above-mentioned link:

Many of the new generation of writers were thus drawn to Spengler’s analysis of the way the rule of money, of money values and of the money baron’s control of politics, had become determinative of the tastes of a civilization in its final cycle. They were concerned with overthrowing the rule of money and returning civilization to its “springtime” where the arts flourished under the patronage of born nobles. Yeats and Evola look to certain epochs of the Medieval period of the West. Ezra Pound sought the overthrow of the banks through the economic theory of Social Credit; Hamsun and Williamson wished for a return to rural values in place of those of the City; many were attracted to Fascism.

Spengler states that in the final phase of the winter cycle there arises a reaction against the rule of money. Money marches on reaching its peak then exhausts its possibilities:

“It thrust into the life of the yeoman’s countryside and set the earth moving; its thought transformed every son of handicraft: today it presses victoriously upon industry, to make the productive work of entrepreneur and engineer and labourer alike, its spoil. The machine with its human retinue. The real queen of this century is in danger of succumbing to a stronger power. Money, also. Is beginning to lose its authority, and the last conflict is at hand in which civilization receives its conclusive form–the conflict between money and blood.”

The rule of money will be overcome by new “Caesars,” strong leaders not harnessed to the plutocrats and their parliaments and media. In Spengler’s last book, The Hour of Decision, he sees the Fascist legions in Italy as heralds of the “new Caesarism.” Mussolini was much impressed with both Nietzsche and Spengler.

Spengler resumes:

“The sword is victorious over money, the master-will subdues again the plunderer-will . . .  Money is overthrown and abolished by blood. Life is alpha and omega, the cosmic stream in microcosmic form . . . And so the drama of a high culture–that wondrous world of deities, arts, thoughts, battles, cities–closes with the return of the pristine facts of blood eternal that is one and the same as the ever-circling cosmic flow.”

- Preface to K. R. Bolton, Thinkers of the Right: Challenging Materialism (Luton, England: Luton Publications, 2003).

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Posted by Captainchaos on August 01, 2009, 12:17 PM | #

Your over the top responses totally convinced her.

Janice, you came here and communicated with us in a tone of scolding, scoffing sarcasm, and then acted as if mystified, and as if confirmed in your suspicions, as if some root of darkness had been tapped by you in us; as if bitterness, as if vulgarity, as if anger (even if it be righteous) had exposed a truth - one that trumps the scientific/technical arguments contra the adaptiveness of miscegenation given here (which I doubt, if quizzed regarding, you would display full comprehension of) - of the singular evil that only those of European descent possess.  In short, you are an intellectually mediocre, emotionally immature provocateur.  Get this, because it is all import, we seek not no deny others their humanity, yet if you deny us our peoplehood, an indispensable part of who we are, you deny us our own.  We want to preserve our people as they are, because they are good, and loved by us, and we believe they ought live.  Justice is with us, and not you, and let the devil take the hindmost.

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Posted by Mark Ijsseldijk on August 01, 2009, 12:51 PM | #

We want a system that supports our people’s interests, openly and explicitly.  We want a respite from our hard-earned monies being used to subsidize all manner of goodies for groups of people that haven’t earned anything.  We want a respite from the racist violence by blacks and other groups.  We want a respite from the crime and filth that Third World populations bring.  We want a world where we can go to a city park and not get robbed, raped, murdered.  We want the people who push miscegenation and debt slavery and war on our people brought to justice so they can never do so again.  We want a land of our own, apart from “integration” at gun point, something we never asked for nor consented to.  We want to secure the existence of our people, and a future for white children.

What’s so evil about that, Mrs. Ma?

Who made you the ultimate arbiter of truth and good?

What gives you any stance to lecture and/or preach to us?

When the things I said come to pass, you and your kind will have nothing to fear from us.  Until then, you will.

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Posted by Captainchaos on August 01, 2009, 01:04 PM | #

Further, Janice, since it is patently obvious that you believe, that some great evil, some hideous power of malevolence, is with us, and that we seek to wield it, against your loved ones, and against others like you, and them and theirs - a great wickedness which borders on the metaphysical, let me give a lesson in metaphysics.  You see, there is what is called senescence.  Yes?  Okay, now what is that?  Senescence is a process induced by evolution into an organism’s genetic make up so that it may live to its healthiest until its reproductive age and die slowly and gradually thereafter.  It is the progressive changing of that which we love, eventually resulting in the heart rending loss of it.  It is the slow descent into nothingness, it is the physical manifestation of dying; it is death.  As our people are changed from what they are - that which we love more than our own lives, for which we gladly would give our lives to gain their salvation - our beloved(s) slip away from us, they will no longer be themselves.  Sadly, it is true, that for you, and I, and all of us, this love will end, but the bonds of love, the affirmation of our being, of our people, need not for those of our people who come after.  So that this love will never end - that is why we fight.  We are good men, your father was a White man.  Do you understand now?  If you are but blind, you simply must.

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Posted by Mark Ijsseldijk on August 01, 2009, 01:08 PM | #

Only Whitey is evil, right?

Aztecs, when the Spanish found them, cut people’s hearts out while they were still beating.  They were so despised by the people that surrounded them that the Spanish found it easy to destroy their empire by allying with their foes.

Bantus today routinely torture and murder their enemies as a sign of machismo.  It is not uncommon to read accounts from “the New South Africa” about victims being, i.e., cut and slashed to pieces with knives and broken bottles.  Or being put through meat grinders while still alive.  Their animistic religion involves beheading or slicing off genitals as “talismans.”

Chinese routinely conquer any ethnicity who stands in the way of their imperialism and then begins the process of race-replacing them:  See Uighurs, Tibetans, etc.

Indian Hindus consider Muslims subhuman and butcher them regularly.  Muslims consider Hindus “infidels” and do the same in kind.

Muslim countries exact horrific punishments on lowly citizens while their Sheikhs and Supreme Leaders live in decadence and luxury.

American Jewry preaches cosmopolitanism and racial diversity while supporting apartheid and racial discrimination for Israel, a jaw-dropping example of hypocrisy not to mention wild-eyed genocidal mania.

I think you get the idea now.

What next?  I’m sure it was “white racism” that made all the above things happen too, right Ma?

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Posted by Mark Ijsseldijk on August 01, 2009, 01:17 PM | #

If there is a “malevolence inherent to white men”, then it is the sort of malevolence which arises as a result of having one’s land and people dispossessed before one’s very eyes.

But mention dispossession to any one of these “compassionate liberals” like the egregious Janice Ma and you’ll receive no sympathy.  After all, those devil whites deserve it, right?  And watch all that compassion blow away like the hot air it is.

Your righteous anger is hollow, Janice.  Give it up.

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Posted by White Preservationist on August 01, 2009, 01:31 PM | #

In case y’all missed them, a few recent posts on TOQOnline which deal with the obvious pitfalls of race-mixing:

- http://www.toqonline.com/2009/06/race-mixing/

- http://www.toqonline.com/2009/06/more-on-race-mixing/

- http://www.toqonline.com/2009/06/miscegenation-the-morality-of-death/

- http://www.toqonline.com/2009/05/from-dusk-to-dawn/

- http://www.toqonline.com/2009/07/the-banality-of-genetic-destruction/

- http://www.toqonline.com/2009/06/lilly-white-daughter-deep-black-boyfriend/

—-

From some comments I made there under the name WHITE SURVIVAL:

Many people don’t realize that race-mixing causes a host of problems (physiological as well as sociological/psychological) among the offspring of such matings.

For instance, it was recently revealed that Asian women who are impregnated by Caucasian men often have to have a C-section in order to safely give birth to that racially-mixed child because the larger Caucasoid head does not comfortably fit through the smaller Asian birth-canal. See: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/article713674.ece - “The researchers speculate this is because Asian women tend to be “smaller people” than Caucasians, and that their smaller pelvises cannot accommodate a more sizable baby, in some cases.”

Another quote from that article: “Few studies have focused specifically on Asian-Caucasian couples. Most research has focused on interracial Caucasian and black couples, and those studies found that couples with a white father and black mother had notably high rates of stillbirths, pre-term births and low-birth-weight babies, Dr. Caughey said.”

Also see: “Mixed-race patients struggle to find marrow donors”

-

I fully agree that White race-mixers are in many respects defective. However, I say let the Whites who seek to mix with other races go ahead and do so during this time of extreme ethno-racial turmoil and chaos until we can gain full racial control of our White countries again…this is because the White race-mixers (who are generally weak, non-ethnocentric, and often psychologically and/or physically defective as you write) will be ‘weeded out’ of the core White gene-pool by mixing with other races — thus the overall White gene-pool is being made better, stronger, and more ethnocentric as a result of those weak/stupid/ugly race-mixing Whites breeding out.

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Posted by torgrim on August 01, 2009, 03:48 PM | #

Ms. Ma said; “Your over the top responses totally convinced her.”

Real nice, come to this Board and misrepresent yourself and, “jab” a knife in a wound, and then make light of your words. Unbelievable!

Thank you “White Preservationist”, I really must read Spengler. It made my day! .....Spengler,

“It thrusts into life of the yeoman’s countryside and set the earth moving; it’s thought transformed every son of handicraft: today it presses victoriously upon industry, to make the productive work of entrepreneur and engineer and labourer alike, it’s spoil. The machine with it’s human retinue. The real queen of this century is in danger of succumbing to a stronger power. Money, also. Is beginning to lose it’s authority, and the last conflict is at hand in which civilization receives it’s conclusive form-the conflict between blood and money.

Excellent!  How true.

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Posted by torgrim on August 01, 2009, 03:57 PM | #

Just as an aside, in reference to the above post by White Preservationist, the mention of the values of the urban vs the rural here is a link about Hamsun;

http://www.hamsun.dk/uk/hamsun_gallery.html

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Posted by RebelliousVanilla on August 01, 2009, 07:48 PM | #

This was amusing. It started really good and ended in garbage. First of all, white people having children with other white people isn’t really inbreeding in the genetic way. If a population and for the sake of the argument, Northern Europeans, is inbreeding they’d experience:
1)Reduced fertility both in litter size and sperm viability
2)Increased genetic disorders
3)Fluctuating facial asymmetry
4)Lower birth rate
5)Higher infant mortality
6)Slower growth rate
7)Smaller adult size
8)Loss of immune system function
And it’s really not the case. Neither of these apply. And even if people would inbreed, the aberrant results will be cleaned in time, but it’s obviously not the case. Actually the deCODE study showed that the best results come from kids of parents who are 3rd degree cousins. You might call whites having kids with other whites line breeding, not inbreeding.

And outbreeding is called outcrossing. And by the way, medical evidence supports what I will say. Outcrossing can actually lead to an increase of individuals carrying a disease. This combined with outbreeding depression leads to interracial children experiencing more health problems and the medical statistics back this up. For example, that tiredness that was analyzed is congruent with research related to outbreeding depression - outbreeding undermining vitality by reducing positive things and increasing negative ones due to each race’s genes not crossing well.

Anyway, the white population is big enough to have children that show no effects of inbreeding and so far science actually points the other way than the book that is reviewed does.

I doubt our current understanding of genetics is deep enough to substantiate the claim of Alon Ziv and his book and it’s a pity that his book masquerades as science. It’s just as much science as those supplement commercials who have been shown to be great by 50 000 different scientific studies. What’s even worse is that a lot of studies show the other way. I guess it’s the same as global warming. Let’s tout up people who praise interracial breeding and let’s bash those who are against it.

And I’m far from being racist. Affirmative action is racist AND sexist, for example, since it discriminates based on race. And I’m not prejudiced either - blacks have inferior intelligence, for example. But unlike most people here, I don’t think it’s genetic. MRI scans of brains show no difference and my point of view is that the IQ gap is cultural. For example, I know a lot of black people who come from families who are pretty much white culturally and they’re smart. And I’m not a Marxist, I don’t believe that people can’t break this cycle through hard work and dedication and I don’t find it moral to bail other people out for their wrong decisions with my tax money.

About Asian people… The difference is cultural too, in my opinion. White culture is starting to get destroyed from within - and this is something that is more important to preserve than ethnicity - while Asians culturally appreciate hard work. This is why, even though I dated interracially, I doubt I will have children interracially. The cultural barrier is fairly important. And I’m disgusted by this “interraciality” worship and not because I mind people dating others of different races - especially since I did it too - but it’s a problem because people should be pushed to have children with people who are compatible with them - similar intelligence, socio-economic status and culture - not based on race.

But what do I know… I’m just a White woman who looks better than the mixed woman who posted pics. Unlike her though, I have the self-esteem to not need to post pictures of myself here.

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Posted by Lurker on August 02, 2009, 01:11 AM | #

Warning! Argument from anecdote coming up…

Someone I know of is half white/half asian. Has experienced problems sleeping properly for many years. Has poor circulation (hands literally turn blue in a bad winter). Always has somewhat bad breath.

I don’t know the cause(s) of these problems, might be nothing to do with out-breeding depression but at least they dont have to worry about inbreeding eh Janice!

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Posted by Al Ross on August 02, 2009, 01:49 AM | #

Despite the fact that Janice Ma is an American citizen, she should not, of course, be resident in the US. Asian cultures, which she doubtless venerates, are firm on the principle that a wife should follow her husband, e.g. both Malaysia’s and Singapore’s immigration laws allows male citizens to import foreign wives who will be given permanent residence but do not allow female citizens to import foreign spouses and this status quo is ensured by denying the foreign male partner right of residence.
If, as I suspect, Mrs Ma’s husband is an ‘American’ Chinese then that sorry fact is a testimony to the suicidally insane immigration policy of the ‘Untied’ States.

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Posted by Frank on August 02, 2009, 03:50 AM | #

Northeast Asians are a great suprarace, but when they mix with whites the results are aweful. The children have these misshapen heads and strange skin colour… It’s as if pieces from two different jigsaw puzzles were pounded together.

When inbreeding occurs within a race, the recessive genetic mutations can be brought to the surface and so removed allowing for a renewal of genetic strength. Outbreeding with other races just builds up this trash in addition to combining incompatible genes.

The Spengler quote is the same as Machiavelli’s concept of Lions and Foxes. Spengler’s right - imho.

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Posted by Frank on August 02, 2009, 09:51 AM | #

In fact, for the first couple of years I posted at this site I endorsed Steve Sailer’s view that you should marry the one you love (regardless of race), so on that I’ve changed only recently, as a result of realizing the magnitude of the demographic threat and the determination of the other side not to back down til Eurowhites are eliminated through encouraged-and-coerced blending with something else.

Arranged marriage is good for preserving order, and you can learn to love whomever is matched with you. I’ve seen it argued that the more introverted (who are often more intelligent at least in a sense) have more difficulty attracting mates, though I dunno if that’s good eugenically or not.

Those who do marry outside their race or otherwise endanger society with their mate selection could just get themselves fixed. The problem seems to be too few are strong enough to make such responsible choices. No one cares about the future - they don’t even want to think of it.

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Posted by RebelliousVanilla on August 02, 2009, 01:05 PM | #

Fred Scrooby, everyone should choose their mate based on who they love. If you take similar intelligence people, but of different races, the result will be worse than similar intelligence people within the same race? Supposing intelligence is codified genetically, there are completely other genes than race. And I don’t view lightly smart people who marry dumb people or who are culturally opposites, but I wouldn’t force my way on people either. I didn’t say that whites should all start marry interracially like Alon Ziv, I said that to me preserving the culture is more important.

For example, I highly doubt that I will have children outside my race and not because I mind other races, but because I am fond of my cultural values and I wouldn’t put up with someone insecure about their race. It’s a lot easier to do it inside the race so I don’t see why I’d do it outside. But again, I’m not the kind of person that will have 5 kids and live on welfare. Well, maybe I will have 5 kids, but I’m sure I won’t live on welfare. raspberry

The problem is this race worship that promotes people to mingle. I mean, without it people would do what’s naturally for them.

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Posted by Frank on August 02, 2009, 03:04 PM | #

Fred Scrooby, everyone should choose their mate based on who they love.

Why? If you marry young then you’ll marry before you fall in love. And when people marry young not only are offspring produced earlier (fighting the demographic war), but there’s less chance of sex outside of marriage which could result in bastard offspring or abortion (baby killing).

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Posted by Janice Ma on August 04, 2009, 11:35 AM | #

Okay, I’m not a loony left winger either.  My real name is James Macht.  That is not my writing name, of course.  A writer has to be able to present a number of viewpoints, sometimes all in the same book, since books do have more than one character.  I’ve obviously been very successful at the previous female character’s viewpoint. 
I would have been even more successful had I been presenting the white male supremacist viewpoint because I can present it with facts.  Real facts.  To truly argue any viewpoint one needs real facts.  Would you like to know some of these?  I’ll give you three. 
The first is this—the DNA guys say that the human race had the most genetic diversity right at the start and that we’ve been getting less more and more inbred ever since.  Nothing does any real good.  Of course, guys like the Iraqis with their 1st and 2nd cousin marriages make it much worse.  Second fact, recessive genes, specific example, blood.  To have good blood and survive one needs one out of 2 good genes.  If one had a sickle cell gene from a black parent and this other blood gene (I forget what it’s called and there may be more than one type) from a Mediterranean parent, the child would eventually die.  And then there are the advantageous genes such as those that Eskimos have which prevent them from suffering frostbite as quickly as others.  One would assume if they married out that they would lose it. 
A good writer can present any viewpoint and can take any facts and twist them to make them into anything he wants even when he’s completely wrong.  I’ve given you some facts.  It’s up to you to build on them.  Happy trails.

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Posted by Mark Ijsseldijk on August 04, 2009, 12:50 PM | #

”MRI scans of brains show no difference” (—Rebellious Vanilla)

Fuck your MRI scans. 

The whole of history demonstrates that there positively is a difference.  End of story.

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Posted by Mark Ijsseldijk on August 04, 2009, 12:52 PM | #

Appealing to authorities to contradict what is demonstrable fact is a logical fallacy, RebelliousVanilla.

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Posted by Mark Ijsseldijk on August 04, 2009, 01:02 PM | #

Saturating one’s Aryan genetic code with Negroid genetics is like a genetic time bomb.  Sooner or later, no matter how attractive or intelligent you thought that black you coupled with was, the ugliness and stupidity will return in your genetic line as a result of this bastardization.  After all, the Negroid genes will eventually regress towards the mean - their mean (see:  Haiti, Africa).

So, miscegenation impoverishes future generations in an unpredictable, scattershot fashion.

Anyway, most of the defenders of Alon Ziv’s filth here are probably folks with hormone problems looking for any possible excuse to “justify” their insatiable appetite for sexual encounters with non-racial kin.  But maybe that’s just me turning the tables on the Freudians.

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Posted by Mark Ijsseldijk on August 05, 2009, 01:02 PM | #

Besides, we DON’T need to do the experiment because the experiment’s already been done:  Egypt, the Maghreb, Brazil.  Do we want that?  No.  Case closed.

Anyone still want to do it?  Go there and do it, not here.  Or go to the Island of Dr. Moreau.  Here is not the place for your experiments.

LOL, bravo.

Exactly the point I’ve tried to get across.

Hey, we evil racists are fine with race mixing as long as it doesn’t happen in our countries and we don’t have to subsidize it.

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Posted by James Macht on August 10, 2009, 01:31 PM | #

Hey, sorry for feeding you guys such a line of crap with the chinese stuff and all that but a guys got to do what he can to make it in this economy (book sales aren’t what they used to be) & I had to prove I could be convincing as that particular kind of woman.

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Posted by James Macht on August 10, 2009, 01:55 PM | #

Back again.  Actually one part of my earlier rantings was partly real, the part of my worries about the economy.  Out here in California you may have noticed we’re having massive layoffs starting.  I always thought our governor was a moderate republican but, apparently, he’s not.  The entire state is going bankrupt.  Soon crime will escalate out of sight especially with all the illegal hispanics.  What is anyone going to do about this?  Something needs to be done!

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Posted by indians on November 05, 2009, 05:02 AM | #

Posted by J Richards on Saturday, October 14, 2006 at 04:06 AM in Anthropology,  Books,  Ethnicity and Ethnic Genetic Interests,  Genetics & Human Bio-Diversity,  IQ and Heredity,  Psychology,  Race realism,  That Question Again

‘’White women look more feminine, and I would refer the reader to a previous, currently active, thread on Nordic beauty, where I have put up numerous comparisons;’’
Racial mixing can increase the attractiveness of already attractive people as testified by real scholors doing real work. 
http://WWW.FEMININEBEAUTY.COM
Ekaterina Joukova: Why do modeling agencies not book me?
Submitted by Admin on Sun, 01/04/2009 - 15:16

link | Submitted by Erik on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 23:45.
THE ASIATIC ELEMENT IN SWEDEN
Another reply to Kayla B.
‘’If you believe that Asian mixture can improve the looks of a Nordic, I’d say you are correct; it can sometimes, but this improvement will almost never be because the face is shifted toward East Asian norms but because of other factors. If this doesn’t make sense, wait for me to post an article on this topic.’’

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Posted by indians on November 05, 2009, 05:05 AM | #

http://WWW.FEMININEBEAUTY.COM
Correction

http://www.femininebeauty.info/

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Posted by RebelliousVanilla on December 23, 2009, 09:14 PM | #

Actually, I agree with you now. I did more research and found out that intelligence is the most heritable polygenic trait discovered or at least up there. I’m 19, give me a break. Most people don’t even care about this at my age.

And I can’t be looking for a wife in Eastern Europe, considering I’m an Eastern European girl, you know? lol. Thanks for the endorsement and yes, the family system didn’t collapsed like yours did, but hurry up because we are importing Western non-values pretty fast and considering we share the same abysmal birth rates, the number of us is decreasing.

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Posted by Javier on December 28, 2009, 05:25 AM | #

Pure toxic, sulfuric acid, writings from a man who is well versed in his knowledge and articulates his destructive misinformation splendidly. One would hope that this man Ziv would be given the post of minister of eugenics and El supremo race mixer,  in the state of Israel. One would expect an opening of the holy land frontiers to the massive onslaught of third worlders to enrich the bucolic and sparse tapestry of Israel’s demographic framework. Ziv’s diatribe for racial suicide will hit the trash can before a single line hits the printing press in the state of Israel, but will be promoted and funded to sell millions of copies in the nations targeted for racial destruction.
One wonders if Ziv’s choice of mate is well rounded buttock-ed Hottentot female, or a pigmy female from the Congo ? .

Where are our geneticists ? why are they not allowed to publish thesis’s and scientifically based racial instructions ?  Why there must always be a chosenite spreading the Gospel lies ? Like Samson breaking the pillars,  Ziv and his tribetribe will take the entire planet into a quagmire or race debauchery , rescuing themselves from the racial deluge, to lord it supreme . We need counter Ziv’s , in their thousands, to resist and throw out the poison emanating from Ziv and his ilk.

Seal looks like a descendant of orangutans , fit to be locked up in a cage , not to be allowed, by a decadent , corrupt and terminally sick society, to impregnate and cohabit with the flower of her womanhood. That is what our enemies, or multicluturalist cyclopes, seek to push us through. Make a role model of the black ogre Seal, deaden our senses to all discriminatory faculties , where it all “looks nice, and the primate sings so well”, and addle our brains into submitting the best of our women to predatory beasts. A society, a race , that behaves in this way ,certainly has a black future before it.

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Posted by Fred Scrooby on December 28, 2009, 09:25 AM | #

Excellent comment by Javier.  Good work, comrade!  You’re a first-rate thinker, in my estimation.

258

Posted by Dasein on January 27, 2010, 08:59 AM | #

Some might consider Javier’s comment as unduly harsh.  Here are a couple of photos to consider as you’re reading his comment.

Remember this ‘cute kid’ from the 70s/80s?

Here he is today:

http://www.tmz.com/2010/01/26/gary-coleman-movie-nudity-bail-arrested/

259

Posted by Anacleto on March 19, 2010, 03:01 PM | #

“When it comes to thousands of years of race mixing between multiple races, it would be hard to beat India, yet East Indians are undoubtedly among the worst if not the worst athletes in the world”.
That’s because Indians don’t like any sports, but Cricket, an Indian sport who was invented by the Brittish. Second, Indian youth don’t practice sports because they are heavily busy doing math and outperforming by far white counterparts.

Yours,

Anacleto

260

Posted by Englander on March 19, 2010, 04:25 PM | #

Anacleto, people tend not to take an interest in things for which they lack the aptitude.  I’m curious, could you provide some proof that Indian youths are out performing whites. Remember, to be relevant the data must come from India itself, and not from the more gifted migrant diaspora in the West, who aren’t a valid sample of the Indian population as a whole.

261

Posted by Extended Phenotype of the East & South on May 03, 2010, 02:41 AM | #

Now, if the F_st between NW Europeans and SE Asians is 0.20, or heaven forbid, maybe like 0.25, does that mean both partners win an honorary Darwin Award in a marriage?  At least I’ll win something in this life…

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Posted by Frank on May 03, 2010, 02:56 AM | #

Extended,

are you having some sort of identity crisis? Just choose a nation to serve, and don’t have children. Instantly you gain a place to belong in this world smile

It’s not so much that you’re a problem but that you threaten the social order. Struggling for order against chaos is very difficult for fallen man, and race mixing only makes this so much more difficult.

It’s just a question of whether you wish to preserve this world or destroy it out of hate or vanity.

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Posted by satan on May 03, 2010, 08:10 PM | #

hybrid vigour would work for humans if you mated a homo sapiens with a homo erectus or a homo habilis. that ain’t going to happen cause all that is left is sapiens. but yet i hear dumb fucks sayin’ how hybrid vigour is a result of race mixing. un fuckin’ believe able!

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Posted by Marcelo on October 08, 2010, 09:16 AM | #

I have two arguments pro miscegenation difficult to refuse. First is about Brazilians.

It is no secret Brazilians are beautiful people. The country exports top models to around the world.
It is also no secret that Brazil has the most mixed population on Earth.
I am myself part Caucasian (German, Dust, Portuguese), Black (African), and Native American (South American Indians).
From the aesthetic point of view, we are just fine, thanks. Our skin looks better for having no scars from infections. Our bodies are more symmetric. We do not have as many genetics diseases as other populations with smaller genetic pool. Those bad genes are recessive and got solved into our variety of genes. We are healthier then Americans, but it could be due to American’s bad diet. 


Second and most pertinent:
There is a scientific news that just came out.
Humanity’s genetic pool has 3% of genes from Neanderthals. It means that part of our civilization has got genes from very primitive beings. But not all human beings have these genes, only Europeans, Asians and subsequent places colonized by them have it. Africans do not share those genes.
So, the only pure Homo sapiens are the Africans. They should be therefore the most evolved population on Earth. Unfortunately, it is not true.
We can get a lesson from it. Maybe what really matters for a population is to get the biggest amount of genes possible, so it can adapt and evolve to surpass any challenge of the environment.

It is interesting to get GPAs from white students in US and compare to black students. It does not show inferior intellect, but only lack of equal opportunities. We know the Bill of Rights was written not long time ago. It is unfair to expect blacks to have same performance in class then white Americans after just a few decades.

265

Posted by EA Steve on October 08, 2010, 01:35 PM | #

Marcelo,

Whites and Asians are more closely related to Neanderthals, than they are to Black Africans. Evidence is also starting to show that Neanderthals were phenotypically more similar to Eurasians than Black Africans are. You can not have it both ways-claiming Neanderthals are inferior non-humans, while every other race is the same species as Blacks.

Maybe what really matters for a population is to get the biggest amount of genes possible, so it can adapt and evolve to surpass any challenge of the environment.

Such miscegenation actually results in the loss of genes and global diversity. When two parents conceive, each gives only 50% of his or her genes-not 100%. In a conception, 50% of the genes are lost. The same thing hapens when the parents are different races. With differential birthrates, some genes would certainly die out, wtih your proposed One World Tan Everyman experiment.

Marcelo, I have no problem with your mixed-race heritage. It is truly something to be proud of; but the pure races have as much right to preservation and dignity as you and other mixed-race peoples.

266

Posted by Wanderer on October 08, 2010, 03:46 PM | #

Neanderthal is sometimes classified as Homo-Sapiens-Neanderthalensis.
They were very smart, maybe smarter than modern Europeans are. They definitely had a higher IQ than modern blacks. [Blacks excel at certain things, but not abstract problem-solving (IQ)].

RE Brazil, even in “the most mixed country on Earth”, we still see a white elite. Nonwhite activists always complain because a huge percentage of Brazil’s women TV personalities and TV-drama stars are blonde, compared to 2% or something of the overall population. Why is that? A racist conspiracy, no doubt. smile

267

Posted by Wanderer on October 08, 2010, 03:51 PM | #

[Neanderthals] were very smart, maybe smarter than modern Europeans are

In fact, Cro-Magnons 30k years ago were smarter than Europeans are now, the evidence suggests. In spatial IQ, the CM avg. would’ve been in the top few percent of a modern white sample, for sure.

What’s interesting is that they are our [racial-Europeans’] ancestors—the majority of the typical European’s genes descend from the Cro-Magnon stock that conquered Europe from the Neanderthal. So the descendants [us] are stupider than the ancestors [Cro-Magnon 30kya]—Dysgenics in practice!

268

Posted by sane on November 02, 2010, 04:51 AM | #

what a joke. racist idiots. what happened in your chldhood to make you hate so deeply?

269

Posted by Lurker on November 02, 2010, 07:55 AM | #

sane - what happened in your childhood to make you regurgitate these platitudes without a moments thought?

270

Posted by AR on January 13, 2011, 11:32 PM | #

Just surfed onto this page as it had a review of “Breeding Between the Lines.” I had already read the book but was curious as to what others thought. I didn’t know what this site was about until I read one of the comments, but I recall thinking to myself as I was reading it that it was suspiciously pro white and anti-interracial marriage, etc…Then when I read the comments I realized why I naturally thought that. Funny how that works. I didn’t know anything about this website or the author, but I was able to intuitively figure out that something was amiss while reading the article.

Pathetic.

271

Posted by Frank on January 14, 2011, 01:54 AM | #

Reg. “hybrid vigor”,

Mules can’t even mate because their genes don’t match. In America we call hybrids “African-American” and “Latino”. They’re the ones who cause most of our crime.

If you follow nature, the trend is for species to separate and specialise, not unite to create “hybrid vigor”.

272

Posted by Frank on January 14, 2011, 02:11 AM | #

The real threat of inbreeding is ancestral traditions are passed down. Melting into the proletariat is resisted.

Assimilation Studies:

I’ve argued that the Muslim preference for cousin marriage (along with several associated social practices) helps explain why it has become difficult to reconcile Islamic social life with modernity, why Muslim immigrants in Europe have been slow to assimilate, and ultimately, why we are engaged in a war with Islamic terrorists.

Assimilation Studies, Part II

If whites wish to survive within Babel, they must marry within race.

-

I don’t say that advocating close inbreeding; but in a traditional society such as Iceland, everyone is a distant cousin. While it’s unnatural to marry a sibling or parent, distant cousins are very natural mates.

Ludovici actually defended close inbreeding.

-

Modern myth claims that inbreeding creates mutations, and yet there’s no explanation as to how such could encourage mutation.

It is dangerous for a family to inbreed perhaps because the family might become a parasite on the greater community. In other words, the threat is primarily social not genetic. In order to encourage loyalty to the greater community (note: “community” doesn’t mean 7 billion Earthlings), close inbreeding ought to be discouraged. However, it’s natural for class divisions to arise somewhat, which is natural specialisation.

273

Posted by Robbo on May 25, 2011, 01:28 AM | #

@AR
“suspiciously pro white” ?

What the hell kind of anti-white statement is that?

As an anti-white, would you say a website is suspiciously pro Jewish? Would you say a website is suspiciously pro Black? Of course you wouldn’t, because you are a sleazy anti-white, pretending to be anti-racist.

Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.

274

Posted by Daniel on July 16, 2011, 01:45 PM | #

The only reason White people often pretend to rank mongrels as more attractive than their own race is none other than White Guilt.  If you really believe that the average malformed looking person from a mongrel cesspool like South America or South India is more attractive than the average person from, say, Sweden or Norway or Denmark, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.  The media tells us that people like Halle Berry (LOL she can’t even compare with the average Swedish girl you see in the streets) are so much more beautiful than “pasty white women”, and I’m sure many whites think that is what they’re supposed to believe and feel intimidated that if they don’t agree they are “racist”, but only the truly brainwashed take such nonsense to heart, which is why the vast majority of whites do not race mix.

275

Posted by Anti-WOG Alliance on July 17, 2011, 10:11 AM | #

The only reason White people often pretend to rank mongrels as more attractive than their own race is none other than White Guilt.  If you really believe that the average malformed looking person from a mongrel cesspool like South America, South Europe or South India is more attractive than the average person from, say, Sweden or Norway or Denmark, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.

Fixed it for you.

276

Posted by Anti-WOG Alliance on July 17, 2011, 10:21 AM | #

It is no secret Brazilians are beautiful people.

Even the ugliest of mongrels like you can become beautiful in the hands of an experienced plastic surgeon.

The country exports top models to around the world.

Said models are always the Aryan/Germanic looking type and not the triracial behemot mutants, said models are taken from the German-Brazilian communities (Cintia Dicker, Mariana Weickert, Ana Hickmann, Gisele Bündchen etc.)

277

Posted by yobro on July 30, 2011, 11:21 PM | #

Agreed. For safety purposes,  all races should mate with their own races. Contamination from whites should be contained and eradicated. Such chauvinistic and hypocritical genetic stock is obviously not missed.

278

Posted by rosecamoro on September 23, 2011, 10:00 PM | #

Is this racism??  what hell are you talking about? what about the other raise that are living in the land which isnt there homeland?

279

Posted by Alfreds on June 15, 2012, 07:48 AM | #

Avoir une tres bonne maitrise est obligatoire selon les metiers http://maitriser.canalblog.com/

Bonne journee a tous

280

Posted by Juliet on October 09, 2012, 08:07 PM | #

What about Hailey Barry and her daughter?  Hailey is definitely mixed (as are all African Americans) and her daughter (with model boyfriend) is gorgeous.  You racist moron.

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