Civilization goes back a long way in Europe too

Posted by John S Bolton on August 18, 2005, 08:14 AM | #

Artistic metalwork is good, and so is the Mesopotamian development of the first practical writing system for public accounting and even the recording of several myths. It was the phonetic alphabet with vowels, which allowed for the first science and philosophy, for the first civilization properly so called, though. This was European, the 1st civilization, with the 1st science of ethics and of politics, the 1st psychology as a subject, the 1st metaphysics as a rational inquiry, the 1st aesthetics, as a theoretical pursuit, and more which are fundamental. mesopotamia gave us irrigation and accounting, and a writing system which could not, without a major breakthrough, or several of them, become civilization itself.  Man without science and philosophy is not civilized. A large state full of savages, is still not to be called civilization. A small state with no palaces to speak of, yet which has some scientists, metaphysicians, and scholars who have written on intellectual subjects,  theorizing beyond the confines of established faith, could mark the 1st civilzation, but not its predecessors.

Posted by Martin Hutchinson on August 18, 2005, 08:40 AM | #

Ever read the Maxims of Ptah-hotep?  The Egyptians, not the overrated Greeks, were the first philosophers.

Posted by Fingal on August 18, 2005, 06:02 PM | #

I hope you’re being sarcastic. The Maxims of Ptah-Hotep is a book of advice, with lots of pithy sayings telling one how to behave and how to deal with various situations and people and so forth. If that’s philosophy, then so are the quaint words of wisdom found among the Cherokee, Bushmen and Papuans.

Posted by Martin Hutchinson on August 18, 2005, 08:16 PM | #

Quite right; Ptah-hotep not only invented philosophy, he also invented business ethics. MUCH better than that useless Commie windbag Plato!

Posted by John S Bolton on August 18, 2005, 09:12 PM | #

Moralizing in an ad hoc way is not philosophy. Concern for system, and avoidance of contradictions, is a quality of philosophy, but collections of discordant aphorisms like confucius or the other unsystematic thinkers of antiquity, don’t qualify.

Posted by Roy on August 19, 2005, 01:16 AM | #

The book of Job dates back to the patriarchs, and is highly defensible as a philosophy, though not in the formal Aristotelian sense, which not even Plato achieved.

That it’s drenched with religiousity is irrelevant to its status as philosophy, as the book is a theodicy, framed as a dialectic(!)wherein the implications of the facts of human pain and injustice are rigorously examined. Much like the Republic, Job’s friends argue that pain is administered according to what people deserve, and are accordingly ridiculed for promoting such transparent nonsense.  Ultimately, the book cites several redeeming purposes of pain.  Trial, correction, faith, etc.

Posted by John S Bolton on August 19, 2005, 01:27 PM | #

No one in Israel or Phoenicia was fully literate then, they had not achieved freedom from aggression in the field of ideas at all, and there was no attempt at systematic and consistent conceptualization of the world. That is why cvilization can’t be said to exist prior to the Greek philosophers, and why moslems can’t be called civilized. Contrast this definition with that of Bush who says it means that the strong have a duty to defend the weak, as if more welfare programs imposed by mere aggression, would make us civilized, or more civilized.

Posted by Martin Hutchinson on August 19, 2005, 01:59 PM | #

“Moslems can’t be called civilized.”  What about the Caliphates?  Don’t worry, the men in white coats will be round shortly.

Posted by Andrew L on August 19, 2005, 08:57 PM | #

John, Some time ago they had found some remains in the interlands of Western Australia, somewhere, they carbondated and Identified the remains as Phonetionas,which is in it self a revelation of sorts. Not much has been made of that subject ether, and it was on ABC News radio, 4 odd years ago. The boat obviously lost course and ended up on the WA coast ,etc.etc.Interesting and they estimate 30 sets of remains found in the camp. I can not recall the age of the remains as they tested it, but the ID of the remains would suggest a few thousand years.A’int science marvellous.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on August 21, 2005, 10:37 PM | #

Andrew that’s an interesting story.  To me, one of the remarkable things about the Phonecians is they were the only great sea-trading, ocean-exploring, overseas-colonizing people other than the Europeans, and the only Semites in that category.  Their next-door neighbors and fellow Semites the Hebrews did no far-reaching sailing at all apparently, and their Semite cousins the Arabs only puttered around the Arabian Sea a bit, over an area probably half the size of the Mediterranean, never venturing far—unexciting stuff.  The Orientals of course never were great sea-explorers (which is why Australia isn’t Chinese today— but hey, give John Ray time, he and Aussies like him will rectify that—have the whole place Chinese in no time ...).  But the Phonecians were amazing.  We all know about their tin trading posts in Bronze-Age Cornwall, their millennia-old voyages around the Atlantic coast of Africa, and so on.  And now this!  If they got as far as Australia that would be amazing indeed!  Of course whoever talks about amazing ocean voyages must mention the Pacific Islanders, but their incredible feats of sailing in their oceangoing outrigger sailing-canoes were sort of one-shot deals of population-spreading, not organized trade-route enterprises undertaken for ongoing back-and-forth commerce, national colonisation, and so on.  For breathtaking, courageous, tough-as-nails, fearless, far-flung, organized back-and-forth blue-water seafaring nothing in the history of the world matches the feats of your Ancient Greeks in their heyday, your Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese), your Italians, Vikings, English, Dutch, and Phonecians—nothing in the world matches this lot.

Posted by dearieme on November 16, 2005, 08:53 PM | #

Fred, it’s worth looking at Geoffrey Irwin’s book on the Prehistoric Exploration of the Pacific, which is about how the Polynesians did it.  There was a lengthy period when they did trade, or at least voyage, between their colonies.  Their fellows in their language group managed to colonise Madagascar, which is one whale of a distance from NZ, Easter Island and Hawaii, the other extremities of their colonies. There’s good reason to believe that they reached the South American mainland.  It’s a fine read.