FINNS AND RUSSIANS

Posted by Colin Laney on February 20, 2009, 05:52 AM | #

Very often you hear people talking about the “Slavic melancholy” which is very common to Finns, but even then nobody ever asks—are the Bulgarians or Slovenians melancholic or is just us Finns and Russians

It’s not just you. Bulgarians and Slovenians are just as melancholic. In fact, I have it on good authority that no one in Rumania has ever smiled.

Therefore we need an entirely new brand of nationalism in Finland: Progressive, anti-capitalist, pan-European, white ethnonationalism. An ideology, which sees all white Europeans as one undivided family. An ideology which gives the same respect to all the tribes of the European nation: Celts, Latins, Slavs, Germanics, Balts, Finn-Ugrics, Basques etc.

Hey! What about Magyars?

As far as I understand it Russians have always been torn by the question of their identity—are Russians Europeans or something that is completely different from Europe.

This is true. I don’t think anyone has done a better job in explaining this East/West split among Whites than Samuel Huntington. Russia is part of a closely related, but ultimately separate, civilization - Slavic/ Orthodox. These lands all share critical features that bind them together in blood and memory, but also lack critical experiences that are common to “The West”: Renaissance, Reformation, Counter-reformation, Enlightenment, etc. I am certainly not making some claim for the superiority of the path the West has taken, but merely point out that what unifies a civilization is a sense of shared heritage. It is significant in this regard that the “Rome” which Moscow sees itself as heir to is Greek speaking and Orthodox Constantinople. Russia’s innate sense of this civilizational grouping is demonstrated by their legitimate anger and frustration at American provokations in Georgia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and the Ukraine.

The Latin West and the Greek speaking East should not be forced together into one incoherent unit. Western Europe is Med, Celt, and Germanic. The East is Balt, Balkan, Germanic and Slavic. Certainly we should be helping rather than harming each other, but currently Western Europe is little more than a collection of American client states. There isn’t really even a ‘we’ in existence yet to force change here in the US, where it must occur in order for any of our people to be free.

Lastly, nobody is going to force anything, least of all a self-understanding, on the Russians. In many ways, “European” Russia is an imported fancy of Peter and Catherine, which has remained controversial (see Tolstoy and Doestoyevsky on this question) and the ultimate declaration of identity has yet to be made.

Unfortunately, as far as I understand it, Russian nationalism has traditionally opted for that Russia and Europe are alien to each other and that Europe is actually Russia’s enemy. I think that many National-Bolsheviks carry on this tradition by claiming that the West is bad for Russia, that Russia is under siege, perpetually locked in mortal combat with the West.

If, by the “West”, they mean America, then they are quite right. America is now - as its leading citizens have always been - the enemies of all mankind. In this sense, we are all locked in mortal combat with “The West” and have been in this combat for some time now, almost a century by my count. Indeed, they only serious exception I take to Huntington’s thesis is that I believe the United States and the United Kingdom now form a new civilization, born in 1945, and dedicated to economism and finance capital gone mad, global capital and labor flows and finally,  global governance and the obliteration of race or kinship as a legitimate feature of human politics - for Whites. I call this new civilization “Oceania”, though if one still wishes to make old fashioned distinctions, the larger partner was named by Pound, “Yankee-Judea” and the lesser partner “Anglo-Judea”, or sometimes, just “Airstrip One”. A fitting name for a nation that brought itself into being by massive and unprecedented levels of terror bombing - though its larger partner also has shown a yen for the wholesale destruction of human life by aerial bombardment. When you hear the term “World Opinion”, what is meant here is what the press and entertainment arms of Oceania are presenting as reality at any given moment. Oceania serves the interests of, and is substantially under the control of, Jewry and international high finance, though there is much overlap there, and it is the primary sponsor of the UN, the Round Table Groups, the IMF, the WTO, the World Bank, and all other organs of nascent world government, which is the telos of Oceania itself - culturally and racially homogenized global barbarism.

Many National-Bolsheviks seem to think that all Russia’s neighbours are enemies and should eventually be conquered. The slogan “Russia is everything, the rest is nothing” is quite ominous.

What’s this? I thought you were just saying that they were all Finns at heart. I do hope this cheeky Russian slogan isn’t keeping you up nights.

At a time like this when Russia is facing dire problems on its southern borders due to the infiltration of non-white populations such an attitude is absolutely suicidal. Russia needs Europe just as much as Europe needs Russia. My message to Russians would be that you are just as much WESTERN and European as the Irish or the Portuguese—because it is only blood that matters—BLOOD IS EVERYTHING, THE REST IS NOTHING!

Though many at this site would have it so, blood is not everything. “Race”, for our purposes - those of preservation -  has three primary components: blood, enculturation, and loyalty. These are not variables that are easily isolated - consider how many Jews have been encultuated as ‘Westerners’, but whose loyalty is to Semites in general, the Old Testament, Israel, etc. Sometimes blood trumps enculturation and determines loyalty, which is why ethnonationalism is really the only viable system of social organization from which we can expect stability, justice, and ordered liberty.

Putin has taken extraordinary steps to secure a future for his people and nation. Anything we can do to get Yankee-Judea off his back is fine by me, shy of pretending that Russia, Poland, Georgia, Osettia, Azkhabia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Rumania, and so forth aren’t part of a single civilizational organism connected by ties of blood, history, religion, language, race and geography. They are White and they are Aryan, but they are not part of the historical process/ organism “The West”. Why should they have to be?

Posted by Norman Lowell on February 20, 2009, 07:30 AM | #

Met Kai Murros on two separate occasions in London and spent a few days with him.
I remember he delivered a masterful talk, filmed by Soren Renner, at Hyde Park - if only someone would upload it.
A truly professorial exposition of the world ideological struggle.

In this article, I particularly marvel at Kai’s solution to the Russian rapprochement to the West.
The discovery of the Finn-Urgic common ancestory.
That the Arctic struggle along the Gustav Mannerheim line : was also a fratricidal war.

Kai Murros is a deep thinker - I entreated him in London to contest the coming MEP Elections.
He is right when he says that we cannot flog dead horses - we should learn from the past.
As he puts it :

“we have to find a way to fit the experience of the past with the needs of the current world. We have to create an entirely new synthesis that breaks out of the box, defies the old classifications and takes the dinosaurs of the political and “intellectual” elite by surprise. In order to accomplish this we need “something old, something new, something borrowed…” and lots of free creativity. And then, finally, we need a way to communicate all this to the people.—I am glad we have this incredible challenge.”

Imperium
0902

Posted by Fred Scrooby on February 20, 2009, 08:53 AM | #

“In order to accomplish this we need ‘something old, something new, something borrowed…’ “  (—Kai Murros, quoted in Norman Lowell’s comment)

Something old, something new, something borrowed…., something white.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on February 20, 2009, 09:14 AM | #

“I think that many National-Bolsheviks carry on this tradition by claiming that the West is bad for Russia, that Russia is under siege, perpetually locked in mortal combat with the West. [...] The slogan ‘Russia is everything, the rest is nothing’ is quite ominous.  At a time like this when Russia is facing dire problems on its southern borders due to the infiltration of non-white populations such an attitude is absolutely suicidal. [...] My message to Russians would be [...] it is only blood that matters —  BLOOD IS EVERYTHING, THE REST IS NOTHING!”  (—from the entry)

Good stuff that.  Not just Russians — it should equally be the message brought home to every Euro race, nation, and national group.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on February 20, 2009, 10:15 AM | #

“it is only blood that matters — BLOOD IS EVERYTHING, THE REST IS NOTHING!”  (—from the entry)

That KM can think this and proclaim it is one reason he’s a giant and others are midgets — Takuan, for example, who refuses to make it explicit, or FJ until his last piece in which without saying “race” or “blood” did unmistakably use other words to say the same thing, so FJ is growing (Kai of course still towers over him). 

I should say Takuan in his latest piece, up yesterday,

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3805 ,

does do a little better than his previous effort, in calling now for a velvet revolution, saying “loyal opposition” won’t work and is a waste of time.  Vladimir Bukovsky also called for a velvet revolution in that Paul Belien interview a couple of years ago, saying something like, “If a million Englishmen simply refused to pay their taxes in protest, what would these totalitarians do?  They’d flee to the Bahamas.”  (Or words to that effect.)

Posted by Fred Scrooby on February 20, 2009, 10:19 AM | #

No matter how you slice this whole business, race has to be made explicit and the Jews have to be made explicit.  Otherwise, no matter what euphemisms you resort to, the Jews and communists have a thousand comebacks they can use.  They can’t when race and the Jews are made explicit.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on February 20, 2009, 10:22 AM | #

(CvH of course will deny my above comment because, although strong on race and more than willing to make that explicit, he’s weak on Jews and sees nothing there in need of explicitness.)

Posted by John de Nugent on February 20, 2009, 10:53 AM | #

Finns with their Lutheran-Scandinavian work ethic and honesty—the highest in the world in various tests—will always feel more drawn to Germany in terms of values.

Like many Western Europeans or even WASPs in America, many look down on Slavs. Sharing an alcohol problem and melancholy binds them as much to Swedes as Russians.

I do not approve, being pan-Aryan, but that is how I see the situation.

Posted by the Narrator... on February 20, 2009, 11:10 AM | #

“Your project to build an anti-capitalist, ecofascist, socialist and ethnonationalist movement like the Autonome Nationalisten sounds great! Indeed the European nationalist movement has been in a terrible state for a long time. It has been dominated by neo nazis and other far-rightist reactionaries—- and then of course the weird lunatic fringe. Nazism and National Bolshevism are really a kiss of death to European nationalism - just think that people have no creativity or imagination of their own so they have to recycle the age old crap of bygone ideologies of the past—which, as we know, collapsed under the crushing weight of their own stupidity and madness. Most nationalists still today are whipping dead horses thinking that they might stand up if you beat them long and hard enough.”

The problem is nationalism in any form will be compared to Nazism no matter what.
It doesn’t matter if you have fluffy bunny rabbits, unicorns and rainbows as your symbols and the word love in every line of your manifesto, the left, which still dominates the media, will call you Nazis.

Any movement we start is going to have aspects of National Socialism to it because the National Socialists didn’t create their platform in a vacuum.

My message to Russians would be that you are just as much WESTERN and European as the Irish or the Portuguese

I second that.

Aside from that the only thing I can say about Finnish culture is that I found the Kalevala strangely compelling.
I can’t say I could follow it properly or make sense of all of it, but it is almost hypnotic to begin reading it…

.

Posted by Søren Renner on February 20, 2009, 11:15 AM | #

It is unfortunate, but the footage of Kai’s speech in Hyde Park is not usable because of wind noise.

Posted by Søren Renner on February 20, 2009, 11:17 AM | #

I second Kai on the blood thing.

Posted by John de Nugent on February 20, 2009, 11:42 AM | #

I would further add that Finland was under Swedish and Russian domination for 700 years, so naturally they look to Germany as a third party and their big protector.

Posted by John de Nugent on February 20, 2009, 11:45 AM | #

I had the same experience as Soeren once. I gave what I and others thought was a very good speech but the wind noise (maybe 10 mph!) made it sound like I was giving a speech to a hurricane. :-(

Posted by Fred Scrooby on February 20, 2009, 11:53 AM | #

Isn’t there software that erases wind noise?

Posted by Tanstaafl on February 20, 2009, 01:14 PM | #

http://www.google.com/search?q=software+eliminate+wind+noise

Posted by Loriver on February 20, 2009, 02:52 PM | #

I like this guy, and I like the article, especially the first paragraph which I would endorse 100%.

On the other hand I think part of our progress towards a philosophically tenable position has to be the abandonment of any idea that a Russian, or a Briton, or any other European does not have unique and serious racial interests at a level below that of Europe in general.

I don’t want Poles in my country - I want them to leave. I don’t care if they are ‘white’, you know? They are not racially British, they are not even Northern European!

Practical reasons may well dictate that we Britons do not deport the Poles, but the fact that they are part of the same wider European race, whilst it is valuable information, is not in itself sufficient - not from a Salterian perspective.

Of course, the idea of generic whiteness is a lot more reasonable in the context of America, but I don’t like the way that this idea bleeds through so much to our discourse as British (etc.) racial nationalists.

Posted by Captainchaos on February 20, 2009, 02:57 PM | #

Kia Murros: “Indeed, I am also terribly excited about the fact Finns and Russians actually form one huge nation. It is really amazing how alike Finns and Russians are.”

“Recognizing the Finn-Ugric ancestry might help Russians to re-define their identity,”

“An ideology, which sees all white Europeans as one undivided family.”

Norman Lowell: “In this article, I particularly marvel at Kai’s solution to the Russian rapprochement to the West.
The discovery of the Finn-Urgic common ancestory.”
______________________________________________________

“We want amalgamation.”

“Nazism isn’t exactly our cup of tea.”
______________________________________________________

Colin Laney: “What’s this? I thought you were just saying that they were all Finns at heart. I do hope this cheeky Russian slogan isn’t keeping you up nights.”

“They are White and they are Aryan, but they are not part of the historical process/ organism “The West”. Why should they have to be?”

John de Nugent: “Finns with their Lutheran-Scandinavian work ethic and honesty—the highest in the world in various tests—will always feel more drawn to Germany in terms of values.”

“Like many Western Europeans or even WASPs in America, many look down on Slavs. Sharing an alcohol problem and melancholy binds them as much to Swedes as Russians.

I do not approve, being pan-Aryan, but that is how I see the situation.”
______________________________________________________

“We don’t want amalgamation.”

“We kinda like Nazism, no offence.”
______________________________________________________

My thoughts:  One of the wonderful things about Europe is the different colors on the pallet have not been mixed together as in America.  But if that’s the way you want to go, if that is what it takes to secure the existence of our race, so be it.

Posted by Iceman / Metal Gear on February 20, 2009, 04:18 PM | #

just think that people have no creativity or imagination of their own so they have to recycle the age old crap of bygone ideologies of the past

Join me in the nationalist technocrat movement, Constantin.  We’ll have two members! lol.  There is a need for serious third positionist ideologies that consider Marx to be a thinker rather than a God.  A form of socialism/fascism that looks to the future and adapts, rather than follows every letter of Marx or Mussolini.

Finns genetically are further outside the European mainstream than Russians (but still Caucasoids).  The outliers of Europe include Basques, Greeks, Portugese and Finns from a genetic perspective.  If one considers Finns white, by the logic of standard deviation using autosomal studies, then Jews, Lebanonese and Afghans would also be white.

Posted by danielj on February 20, 2009, 04:32 PM | #

I think Ralph Nader is a White man.

Posted by Captainchaos on February 20, 2009, 04:37 PM | #

Colin Laney: “...and the lesser partner “Anglo-Judea”, or sometimes, just “Airstrip One”. A fitting name for a nation that brought itself into being by massive and unprecedented levels of terror bombing - though its larger partner also has shown a yen for the wholesale destruction of human life by aerial bombardment.”

____________________________________________________________

“Bomber Command headquarters had issued by teleprinter identical
briefing instructions to every bomber airfield. The wording,
which has survived, makes odd reading now. The seven thousand
British airmen were to be told that afternoon that they were about to
attack Dresden, ‘far the largest unbombed built-up area the enemy has
got.’ ‘The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel
it most,’ the telex said; it then added words pregnant with other
implications: ‘And incidentally to show the Russians when they
arrive what Bomber Command can do.’” - David Irving, Apocolypse 1945: The Destruction of Dresden, P. 123

Posted by Captainchaos on February 20, 2009, 05:12 PM | #

And on a less somber note:

“The only detail of the special briefing which stood out clearly in the
Master Bomber’s memory later, seventeen years after the attack, was
that at the end of the briefing the Base Commander, an officer of
Air Commodore rank, recalled that before the war he had been to
Dresden once, and had stayed at a famous hotel on the Dresden Altmarkt,
the large square in the centre of the Old City.
This square was in the very heart of the sector marked out for
saturation in some eight hours’ time; it appeared that the Air Commodore
had been thoroughly and disgracefully rooked by the hotel
staff on his departure. Now was his chance for revenge: he asked the
Master Bomber to make sure that this building did not escape the
general destruction.”  - David Irving, Apocalypse 1945: The Destruction of Dresden, P. 126 - 127

Posted by James Bowery on February 20, 2009, 07:00 PM | #

Finns represent the most valuable extrema of Euroman.

Finns, as outliers, differ from Jews, as outliers, in two very fundamental dimensions:

1) The selective pressure on Finns is an extreme form of natural evolution adapting to the land as opposed to an extreme form of unnatural evolution adapting to trade routes between urban areas as with Jews and their evolution of virulence.

2) Their admixture is more circumpolar, meaning that the extent to which they represent an experimental extension of Euroman, they incorporate genes from others who are similarly adapted to harsh natural conditions—hence their homozygousity is more recessive and more vulnerable to decoherence during admixture (as well as being less of a threat to the expression of other nations during admixture).

Never the Muse is absent
from their ways: lyres clash and flutes cry
and everywhere maiden choruses whirling.
Neither disease nor bitter old age is mixed
in their sacred blood; far from labor and battle they live.
...
Never on land or by sea will you find
the marvelous road to the feast of the Hyperborea.

—Pindar

Godan, preserve the Finns from immigrants.

PS:  I have no Finnish ancestry to the best of my knowledge.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on February 20, 2009, 07:48 PM | #

John Keegan is the top military historian in the world today.  Let’s see what Keegan had to say about the Finns:

http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=000a298a-sp00000000&sp;-q=Finns+Keegan&sp;-p=all

Posted by Fred Scrooby on February 20, 2009, 07:53 PM | #

Sorry, that didn’t work.  Go to Vdare.com,

http://www.vdare.com/ ,

type Finns Keegan into their site’s search feature (home page, upper left), and hit “search.”

Posted by Fred Scrooby on February 20, 2009, 08:24 PM | #

“Godan, preserve the Finns from immigrants.”  (—James B.)

Amen to that.

“PS:  I have no Finnish ancestry to the best of my knowledge.”

Nor have I.  I have only burning admiration for the great Finnish race and an equally burning desire that it survive intact into the future.  Forever.  (—As is my wish for all European races, every single blessed one of them, wherever in the Worldwide Eurosphere they now make their homes.)

GO FINNS!

Posted by a Finn on February 21, 2009, 04:33 AM | #

To Kai: When Russians say: “Russians are everything, the rest are nothing”, that alone is reason not to join their empire. There are other reasons. Some similarities in paintings is not a sign of similarity. I have two authentic North-Korean books, and one of them is about the life of Kim Il Sung. It has paintings about him which resemble some old wild west oil paintings. I doubt that European-Americans would suggest combining Usa and North Korea on that basis. Kai wrote: “Blood is everything, the rest are nothing” and suggests Russians are Finnic. Although they have some Finnic ancestry, especially in the north, they objectively are not Finnic, and does not regard themselves as such. Ethnicity is everything only in combination with other things, it can’t prosper in a vacuum. If somebody tries vacuum approach he will soon notice ethnicity is not everything. Humans and their communities are combinations of many compelling and important things.

To possible Russian readers: There is some validity in wishing a fairly strong leader in your country, so that he can keep the large and diverse country from falling apart. But strong leaders and large empires come with a vexing price; high status of a powerful empire leader and solidarity to his own people have negative correlation. The more dictatorial the leader is and the more vast his empire is, the less likely he is to feel solidarity to his own people. Also, he is more susceptible to all kinds of corruptions that will weaken his loyalty to his own people. In short, it is only the question of time when a dictatorial leader of a vast empire, or his successors, will betray his own people. Good leaders are such, that they strive to uphold as much solidarity to their people as possible and are compelled by rules to it, in case they are not vigorous in it. Also, the people should have enough local people’s power to help them in their lives and to protect them from unrighteous, betraying, internationalist and/or foreign leaders.

The task of group leader requires that he loses a little bit solidarity to his group members, so that he can rule and judge advantageously for the group interests in a way that would be prevented by solidarity /equalitarian spirit of the group members. But the leader’s interests, solidarity and loyalties should never based on anything else than his own group.

Thus, the best leader for Russians could be somewhere between dictatorial leader and weak western international “human rights” leader. Am I to be trusted? Yes. It is also advantageous in every way to Finns that Russians stay prosperous, stable, enduring and strong nation, that can have mutually beneficial relations with us and can protect their legitimate borders from the pressure from the south.

About Finnish genes: Our genetic east- west positioning is flimsy at best in many studies. Having studied it, it is based on weak evidence and possibly distorted by politically correct pressures, that can be noticed, when researchers talk about it. They use extensively words maybe, possibly, could have, etc. That there are genetic similarities between Finns and Siberian Finno-Ugrics is old news (thus the incorrect positioning of the Finns in genetic maps), but which way the genetic influences went is the question. The evidence is based on the assumption of M214-LLY22G-Tat-C (N3) route from south-east China to Siberia to Finland.

O clade and N clades might have separated 34,6+-4,7 thousand years ago from M214 (hypothetical). M214 could be the origin of Siberian N3, because there are some resemblances between O clade and N clades and it is more likely that O is closer to the M214 than N clades. The events are so far back that they go approximately to the time when Europeans and Asians differed from each other. The only evidence then is that IF there was migration of genes between M214 and Siberian N3, it is likelier that the direction in time is O—> N3 (mutation probability), and there is enough similarities that they COULD be related, but there is no proof. The events can’t be proved, because they are so far back in history. Many other explanations are equally valid, e.g. that O and N3 have separate origins and have common ancestry in some other clade further down the genetic lines.

It doesn’t stop there.

Consider the following:

- Finnish N3 single tandem repeats (STR) are more diverse, 0,32, than the Siberian populations’, 0.26, indicating that the origin of N3 is in Finland; longer existence here. Rootsi et. al. 2006 try save their proposal by saying, that there might (sic) have been several N3 lineages that came to Finland and they must have (sic), for this to be true, undergone several bottleneck events on the way here from Siberia. Yet the historic Siberian and related populations have been much larger and more diverse than Finns, and have had more migratory lifestyles (more exchange of lineages between them) than Finns. This together with the supposition of longer existence should have produced higher STR diversity values in Siberia, but it has not.

- Anthropological evidence from facial and skull measures indicate that mongol index forms a gradient from Europe to Siberia where Finns are situated according to north south line. Finnish genetic Asiatic index is situated in the same way, calculated from six sample gene allele collections (Niskanen, 2002). Mongol index and Asiatic Index, - indicating missing information:

Europe (average) 24.9, 22.8
Basque –, 12.4
French 22.4, 18.3
German 16.7, 19.6
Austria 32.4, 20.7
Czech 25.4, 16.7
Russia 25.4, 21.6
Greek –, 33.4
British 12.9, 20.7
Norwegian 28.0, 20.5
Swedish 20.4, 18.2
Finnish 25.4, 25.1
Saami 25.5, 42.2
Komi –, 30.1
Mari –, 34.2
Mordvian 39.4, –
Hungarian –, 21.4
Samoyed –, 58.0
Caucasus –, 35.6
Near Eastern –, 32.1
Indian –, 55.40
Mongolian –, 74.9
Buryat 90.0, 73.4
Korean –, 78.6
Japanese 69.2, 87.5
Ainu 52.0, 92.8
South-Chinese 67.8, 82.3
Tibetan –, 81.4

- There should be diminishing north to south frequency gradient of N3 for the theory of Siberian origin to hold (Saami-Finns); instead there is highest proportion in the south middle Finland, radiating from there to all directions.

- Finno ugric languages form an rough gradient where the easternmost Finno-Ugrics have the least Finno-Ugric (and more Asiatic) influence in their language and the most Asiatic genes. Finnish language has no known Asiatic influence.

- Finnish N3 origin can be explained by two major bottlenecks about 3900 and 10 000 years ago and with the subsequent genetic drift (Sajantila et. al., 1996)(Niskanen 2002). Rootsi (2004) lists major Y-choromosomal haplogroups in eleven European populations (n, R1a, R1b, I, N3, J2, E3b and G). Finnish distribution follows northern European distribution with the expected effects of said bottlenecks and genetic drifts, plus a little less Iberian refuge influence than in north western Europe.

- In general Europeans genetic affinities to Asians are common, because we separated from them about 40 000 years ago, e.g. HG26, ancestral to HG1, is found among western Europeans and Asians.

- There are also other possible explanations to N3. N3 could have developed separately in different northern regions. Because N3 is found in northern regions only and Y-chromosome codes many proteins in testes and ubiquitously in the body, it is possible that N3 gives advantages in cold climate. Thus evolutionary pressures would have selected it in the north. Coincidence is another possibility. (Willems, 2001)(Rootsi 2004).

Etc.

Posted by a Finn on February 21, 2009, 05:01 AM | #

Addition:

I thank you for your complimenting comments on behalf of Finns.

One addition: High cheekbones are slightly more prevalent in northern Europe than in the southern Europe, but they have nothing to do with mongolian ancestry. They are an evolutionary adaptation of European hunter gatherers to eat tougher meats with bigger jaw muscles. Southern Europeans have had agriculture longer time and thus softer meals, so selection (women choosing husbands) have produced slightly less high cheekbones. (Niskanen 2002)

Ps. GW, when you will select the writers of this site more carefully and install proper moderation on the comments?

Posted by Fred Scrooby on February 21, 2009, 10:03 AM | #

In regard to A Finn’s extensive discussion of Finnish genetic genealogy, I’d like to say, 1) the commenter signing as “Iceman/Metal Gear” who broached that topic is no authority although he gives himself out as one; 2) I for one have never taken that stuff seriously which finds some sort of racial distance between Finns and Europeans:  Finns are Europeans, period; 3) the reason I point this out is an e-mail I received asking what I meant by my comment of Feb. 20, 12:53 PM, where I added, “something white.”  I CERTAINLY wasn’t referring to anything to do with this “are Finns European?” nonsense.  (Yes, they’re TOTALLY European as far as I’m concerned or any sane person is concerned!)  I was making a little play on words on the old children’s rhyme Kai Murros quoted in the entry and Norman Lowell re-quoted, “Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue”:  I simply meant that whiteness is something any “national movement has to insist on” unlike certain “national” voices that appear willing to compromise on this, such as (please correct me if I’m wrong) Troy Southgate’s and Alain de Benoist’s.  In Finland, look how the Jews (or homosexuals?  Only Jews or homos would do this, or occasionally communists, but no one else) have publicized in-your-face race-replacement propaganda using the Finnish girl in the traditional Elovena product logo, as I mentioned here:

http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/false_folk_consciousness/#c61077

In a properly-run society such brazen racial backstabbing of the nation would be made to pay a penalty the way questioning the Holocau$t is made to pay a penalty in many countries today (improperly so as regards questioning the Holocau$t) (that the one is permitted and the other made to pay a penalty shows, incidentally, which group enjoys hegemony today).

Posted by Svigor on February 21, 2009, 03:04 PM | #

The problem is nationalism in any form will be compared to Nazism no matter what.

In various forms, this argument is found in every segment of the right.  Steve Sailer even said it about racism charges recently.

I want to point out that it’s true, but does not work as an excuse for any and all ethno-nationalist behavior.  The test is, “would an honest, perceptive white man agree?”  That is, do the charges stick?

Posted by Svigor on February 21, 2009, 03:07 PM | #

Of course, the idea of generic whiteness is a lot more reasonable in the context of America, but I don’t like the way that this idea bleeds through so much to our discourse as British (etc.) racial nationalists.

It’s a two way street.  I’m now much closer to the Euro model in this regard than the American model, though I recognize that the latter may be best for our side of the pond.

Posted by Svigor on February 21, 2009, 03:14 PM | #

Finns genetically are further outside the European mainstream than Russians (but still Caucasoids).  The outliers of Europe include Basques, Greeks, Portugese and Finns from a genetic perspective.  If one considers Finns white, and considers whiteness in the political sense to be determined solely by genetics, by the logic of standard deviation using autosomal studies, then Jews, Lebanonese and Afghans would also be white.

There, I corrected that for you.  I see the non-whiteness of Jewry as an ethnic issue, which trumps any questions of their genetic whiteness.

AFAIK Anti-whiteness isn’t written into the ethnic definition of Basques, Greeks, Portuguese, or Finns, but it’s most certainly written into Jewishness.

Which, FOR THE UMPTEENTH GODDAMN TIME, precludes the existence of “white jews” in the political sense.  To be a “white Jew” in the political sense is to be someone who is lying - to himself, others, or both.  It’s like being a white black/black white, a cat dog/dog cat, a libertarian totalitarian/totalitarian libertarian, etc.

Posted by a Finn on February 22, 2009, 04:04 AM | #

More additions and something about stigmas.

To conclude and to make it easier to understand. The position of Finns in east west genetic line is dependent on and relative to where Finnish genes originated. If part of Finnish genes originated in Asia and they are thud Asian genes, then the right position in east west genetic line would be long way away from Finland towards Siberia. If all Finnish genes originate in Europe, then our right position in east west genetic line is in Finland. The claim on Finnish Asian origin rests on at least seven major uncertain suppositions, plus some minor ones, all built on top of each other, with no concrete evidence for any of them. If even one of the suppositions is wrong the whole edifice collapses. On the other hand, all the concrete evidence and and the most of the corroborating evidence supports Finns’ European origin:

* All the genetic, anthropological (Mongol-index etc.), cultural and language gradients (concrete, that can be seen and/or proved) supports European origin of Finns.

* Historical demographic, geographical and source of livelihood/ lifestyle evidence and their effect on genes supports European origin of Finns.

* There is evidence for at least two major genetic bottlenecks and subsequent genetic drifts in Finnish history. There is no evidence for several N3 genetic bottlenecks and the genetic drifts on the way from Siberia to Finland (which the theory requires to be true). There is no evidence for N3 travelling from Siberia to Finland at all, let alone that several N3 lineages would have done it. Many gradients can be used as evidence for N3 travelling from Europe to Siberia.

* Greater N3 STR diversity supports Finnish European origin despite that many factors reduce it in Finland. Siberians have lower N3 STR diversity despite the fact that many factors increase it in Siberia.

* There are alternative possibilities, that support Finnish origin of N3, like northern selective pressures, separate coincidence (Made more likely by similarities in human genomes, by that some mutations are more likely than others and by that some mutations are deleterious or weakening). Coincidence similarities are fairly prevalent and explain some similarities between ethnicities.

Some geneticists claims about N3 are another low PC moment for science. It seems to me that most of these geneticists are not political activists, some of them just more or less give in to PC pressures, dogmas and rewards. There are also some geneticists, whose view is so limited to concentrated details, that honest ignorance and errors are a factor, made worse by the prevalent guiding PC dogmas in environment. PC pressures by various political activists and others causing this are more interesting. Payoff can be deducted. Divide and conquer in a special way. It goes something like this:

- Find possible weaknesses, secret shames, insecurities, compromising information, status lowering information, etc.

- Confront people with this information, drum it aloud to all the world and to the people’s faces.

- Observe all the consequent self destructive tendencies and strenghten them.

* In practice: Proclaim; Finns are Mongols; English and Southern Europeans (south Germans included) are dark (like) Gypsies, Middle-easterners, Turks and northern Africans, especially compared to Finns and other Scandinavians; Germans are pompous, stiff and overconfident nazis and idiots who don’t care about other people’s (ethnic) interests; Irish are the descendants of muslim marauders and other dark trash, they have always been crooks and “white niggers”; Swedish and Dutch men are weak feminine homos, Russians are mixed race non-Europeans with a Tsenghis khan society; Norwegians are lazy, clumsy and stupid, niggers of Scandinavia; dark French men have hard time deciding whether to use lipstick and women’s handback or spend all his time loitering in political whining; Spanish, they are not even dark Europeans, because they are not Europeans at all; Italians, they have inverted Midas touch and f.ck up everything they touch and can not control their childlike primadonna nerves; etc.

Can you see the pattern here?

There are of course other kind of stigmas, many of them are less insulting, more delicate, “scientific” and official.

Stigmas, like power, need regular renewal in many ways. Anything will do, jokes, comics, books, speeches, writings, symbols, activist institutions, television /radio/ internet, inserts among other topics, word and sentence choices, high status positions, when proclaiming, everyday conversations, poetry, dictating the rhytm and directions of chats in internet, etc. (See Discourse analysis)

* There are different reactions to this, most of them supporting leftist radical agendas:

- Some are so shamed about their ethnicity etc. that they can’t support it, identify with it, protect it, etc. They prefer identities without stigma and it somehow seems to be in media and publicity international identity. They use all occasions to tell how awful “racism” and preferring one’s own ethnicity is. Some become leftist/ liberal political activists.

- Low IQ ethnic/white nationalists, if the stigma is directed against some other ethnicity, repeat it loudly trying to raise their status at the expense of others (failing of course). Leftist trolls accompany their rants, either at the same level, or with intelligent supporting writings. This creates quarrels and rifts between European ethnicities.

- Sensible ethnic nationalists have to spend considerable time and energy explaining that they are not this and that, they are that and this. They have mend all kinds of broken situations. It is away from important activities and can cause them to drop out of common forums and break connections (maybe by just not contacting).

- Sociopaths and overly extroverts, whatever their political view, might see the stigmas as useful vehicle to raise their personal status by sinking other people’s status.

Etc.

Result: Divided European ethnic nationalists, hostile to each other, inadvertantly supporting leftist radicals and doing their work.

*****

Little bit more accurately, addition with big letters:

- There should be diminishing north to south frequency gradient of N3 for the theory of Siberian origin to hold (Saami-Finns); instead there is highest proportion in the south middle Finland, radiating from there with DIMINISHING GRADIENT to all directions.

Southern Europeans have had agriculture longer time and thus softer meals, so selection (women choosing husbands AND MEN CHOOSING WIFES) have produced slightly less high cheekbones. (Niskanen 2002).

Posted by a Finn on February 22, 2009, 04:17 AM | #

Handback—> handbag

Posted by a Finn on February 23, 2009, 06:43 AM | #

Last additions:

My motives in assessing Finns’ origin are pure. I have said years ago in this site that I support Finns’ endogamy. Finnish ethnic nationalists don’t need nor want want western European or any other foreign spouses (Nothing personal, just normal ethnic nationalism). We don’t want to immigrate anywhere. We don’t covet other Europeans’ resources. We succeed and prosper with our own abilities. In matter of fact, if endogamy was my only concern, it would be enticing to advertise Finnish mongol ancestry to everybody contrary to the facts, because it would make Finns less wanted as spouses, thus protecting our endogamy. This can be compared to Jews’ clever methods of protecting their endogamy. Part of their strategy was to create such hairstyles, clothing, attitudes and customs that repell non-Jews, making mixed marriages between Jews and others less likely.

But we were the first northern Europeans, we are Europeans in Europe and we will live here, in this political cultural environment. Genes have an effect on political cultural recognition (Genetic similarity theory, Philippe, J. Rushton) and consequently to the related functions. It means that because Finns’ European origin can be objectively supported by the facts it is natural to take that position when somebody questions it. Finns don’t want any special treatment, just the normal recognition that they are part of European political cultural environment. I remind that this recognition is at the razors edge concerning all European ethnicities. Under the surface there are plenty of logical, scientific and concrete genetic (more than you know), political, cultural, historical, religious, linguistic, propensity, abilities, etc. information to deny the Europeanness of any European ethnicity. If European nationalists start dividing, accusing and defaming other European ethnicities, it will open all the dirty and shameful boxes, that will explode Europe and other European areas to pieces and straight to hell.

My recommendations: Sincere European ethnic nationalists recognize traditional European ethnicities politically and culturally. If they prefer their ethnicities’ own genes and want to preserve their genetic identity, that is a perfectly good thing. Do it by creating real (preferably) or de facto endogamy, not by defaming and trying to lower the status of other European ethnicities. Other complementary perfectly good things are preserving the ethnic composition of their living areas and countries, and preserving their cultural heritage.

*****

Finns have lived historically fairly isolated in north. Gulf of Finland has protected Finns on the other side. In the east there are large swamp areas, difficult arctic areas, etc. Russians and others following them are late comers in the north near Finland. Finns have had traditionally stable housing, no migrating, except what hunting and fishing required. Finns’ closest relatives are unmixed Latvians, and the Baltic genes comprise by far the largest part, the basis of our gene pool. Swedes and Germanic traders have added to it in that quantity order. This considerably isolation has evolved us to our own northern European direction.

*****

I wrote that high status and solidarity (e.g. to own ethnicity) have negative correlation. This is easy to understand in the case of a dictator of large international empire, but the question is how come our weak national “human rights” leaders have so totally lost any solidarity (they have only that solidarity that is politically compulsory) to their people. I suggest the following reasons:

- People’s psychological inclinations have developed to be tuned to real, tight communities, their loyalties, solidarities, empathies, reciprocities, immeadite authorities, social proofs, continuities, commitments etc. Modern leader lives in highly artificial and distorted human environment. Normal psychological inclinations don’t find proper natural outlets, so they become, stunted, misplaced and distorted. E.g. you can see in the following article that British conservative politician is more loyal to Turkey’s smooth talking diplomats than his own people. Although this is dangerous, it is unfortunately natural consequence of loose, but still exclusive modern politicians’ environment:

http://www.vdare.com/misc/090219_taki.htm

- Western “human rights” leaders are weak, but there are other directions than power, where you can distance yourself from your people. Such directions include western leaders utopian leftist/liberal ideological, artificial mental worlds. Because there are no normal and real community, and it’s requirements and realities that would dispel the thoughts that are disadvantageous to his our own people, the thoughts will survive. Because utopian thoughts gives to politicians the same kind of comfort as baby receives by sucking his thumb, it will give politicians a false comfort. This false comfort is greatly magnified by the social proof other surrounding utopian politicians give and the utopian comfort thoughts and speeches voters want. Voters are almost as alienated as the politicians, but in a different way.

- Humans have the ability to understand and relate tightly to about 150 people. If there are not special and efficient methods to extent that relation, larger human groups become more and more artificial, meaningless numbers.

Etc.

Posted by a Finn on February 23, 2009, 06:55 AM | #

methods to extent that relation,—-> methods to extend that relation

Posted by Henkipatto on March 08, 2009, 05:41 PM | #

Does that ‘Mongol Index’ incorporate data of soft tissue as well? The combination of pedomorfic facial features and oblique eyes with epicanthic folds (which, in Finland, isn’t as rare as one would expect for a Europid nation), when observed in natives of the Eurasian continent, is an indication of Mongolid racial influence. Sure, Finns are predominantly Europid, but their morfological (as well as genetic) features deviate towards Mongolid. Taken these into consideration, the traditional assumptions of the ethnogenesis of Finnic tribes are far from unfounded. Have you read the report on the Tvärminne symposium? Also, the cultural and linguistic affinities of Finnics aren’t as unambiguously European as the picture you are trying to convey here.

‘Racial Types of Finno-Ugrians and Eastbaltids’
http://forum.stirpes.net/baltid/7827-racial-types-finno-ugrians-baltisation-eastbaltids.html

‘Genetic structure in Northern Europe with 250K SNPs’
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/10/genetic-structure-in-northern-europe.html

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/5742/linguauraltv1.jpg

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/9202/suomiidastaoo0.jpg

“However, it has to be stated that Indo-European languages are, by their basic type, significantly further from the Uralic languages than Altaic languages and Yukaghir are.” (From the second Imageshack link, text from the report on the Tvärminne symposium)

Posted by a Finn on March 09, 2009, 01:10 AM | #

Henkipatto: “Does that ‘Mongol Index’ incorporate data of soft tissue as well?”

- Yes, four indices of facial features, following the example of Karin Mark’s Mongolidheitsindex (1970). More later.

Posted by Henkipatto on March 09, 2009, 11:14 AM | #

- Yes, four indices of facial features, following the example of Karin Mark’s Mongolidheitsindex (1970). More later.

Oh, old-school goodies. Yes please.   Oh my, the books I haven’t gotten my hands on…

Regading the topic: most Finnish and Russian nationalists would abhor the idea of muddling these two peoples together; for many - if not for most - Finns the Russians are a national arch enemy, while Russians themselves have an Indo-European ethnic identity. Kai’s urge to fraternize with ‘the enemy’ is reminiscent of the political and cultural chokehold the traditional Left hold Finland in during the Soviet era. A Finnish person need not hold much of a nationalist sentiment to feel deep antipathy against the phenomena and what Kai has suggested here.

Posted by a Finn on March 09, 2009, 07:40 PM | #

I answer part by part. Part 1.

“Genetic structure in Northern Europe with 250K SNPs”

- Yes, these and other similar results are correct, and that’s what I stated above. There are some genetic similarities between Finns and some eastern Finno-Ugrians, as would be expected. However, the decisive factor is which way those genetic influences went. I gave evidences above, read them carefully. I have more in store. However, if you don’t understand them, I can’t help you. They are as easily formulated as possible.

About facial and skull features:

“The Baltic-Finns and, as a surprise to many people, also the
Saami exhibit clearly North European phenotypes. Epicanthic
eyefolds, flat faces, coarse straight hair, and other Mongoloid
traits are not encountered among them more frequently than
among other Europeans (Coon 1939, Brues 1977).”

I live in Helsinki, the most populous city in Finland. I have traveled and stayed in all parts of Finland. I see almost daily numerous people, who have diverse Finnish origins. I have never seen a Finn with e.g. epicanthic eyefolds. If there are people here who travel to Finland, I suggest that you observe that yourself. Finnish-Asian hybrids from recent immigrants exist here, but they are easy to distinguish from Finns, because they are so different.

I saw that in recent debate in Finland you tried to prove epicanthic eyefolds exist in native inhabitants of Finland. You used a picture of Saami man (natural choice, but of no use) who laughed and grinned, and at the same closed his eyes. That is laughable, but I don’t laugh.

Side note: Among all the other lacks of your genetic knowledge, you thought that there might be a clade of M214-M231-LLY22g-N3. M231 is equivalent to LLY22g polymorphism.

You use evidence produced in Moscow, Soviet Union. I Don’t trust that for several reasons:

- Soviet Union was agressively anti-racist, anti-ethnic, anti-nationalist and it tried to create new ideal communist humans, Homo Sovieticuses, who would be mixed race cosmopolitan citizens of Soviet empire, only loyal to the communist empire. It started with Lenin whose heritage was a mixture of Russian, Swedish, Mongolian, Caucasian (From Caucasus), Jewish and possibly others. He hated anything based on ethnicity. He used ethnic sentiments in the beginning of Soviet Union to lure peoples to start building Soviet Union and more people into it. But there was ready plans to crush the ethnicities and that was done in the 1920’s. Soviet Union used blatant lies and propaganda in science to support it’s mixed race/ ethnicity etc. comparable ideals. Readers here may know the constant lies in newspapers like Pravda and Izvestija.

To give you a picture of their thoughts. I have a genuine Soviet book, G.P. Frantsov, Philosophy and Sociology, Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1975. Introduction of Frantsov: “Academician G.P. Frantsov (1903-1969) was a leading Soviet scientist, a prominent public and political figure, talented writer and a man of encyclopaedic konwledge. .... In his lifetime, G.P. Frantsov was Director of the Institute of International Relations, Rector of the Academy of Social Sciences under the CSPU Central Committee and Editor-in-Chief of the journal World Marxist Review.” Although this book is about different matters than anti-racism etc., one can find in it quotes like the following:

“Bourgeois ideology contains less and less liberal ideas of the old days, and more and more old reactionary feudal dogmas. Indeed, words like “religion” and “order” now have the same meaning with which they were invested by the reactionaries in the feudal period. The old ideas of the Holy Alliance, which arrogated the “right” to interfere in the affairs of other states to establish order, are being brazenly revived. The racist ravings of Count de Gobineau, who preached the “natural” inequality of the races in the mid-19th century, are now being presented as latest word in political wisdom and even science (so-called psychoracism). ....

Even today one should not forget that monopoly capital also breeds the ideology of fascism, an ideology of extreme chauvinism, racism and wild anti-communism. On the periphery of the bourgeois world the monopolies continue to implant starkly fascist regimes. In the dependent and semi-dependent countries terroristic military dictatorships directly controlled by foreign monopoly capital are being installed.”

- So, the picture of Karelian man that you use as a evidence is strange. He has robust, big skull of an European where some features look like they have been distorted to give an Asian look. You would expect that features of such hybrids are more delicate and small like European-Asian hybrids have always been, e.g. the Finno-Ugric-Asian hybrids in Siberia. Think about the communist propaganda utility of this kind of lie; you are all hybrids and mixed race already, you are already like the ideal Soviet cosmopolitan citizens, join us, join our huge powerful empire.
———-
You talk about Tvärminne symposium. It was a “roots” conference in the 1980, all kinds of hippies and know nothings participating. It’s “results” are worthless. I once asked Jussi Halla-aho, P.hD. in historical languages, could it be that Chinese and Korean languages have some connections to Finnish language. He said absolutely no, and explained it widely. You know his site and e-mail address there. He is busy man, but I am sure he will give you a condensed answer if you ask. By the way, although Halla-aho is an immigration critic, he don’t care what origin the Finns have.
————

I don’t agree with you arch enemy rhetoric about Finns and Russians. That situation would exist in the case of war, but not otherwise.
————

In the next part I quote more information about this matter.

Posted by a Finn on March 09, 2009, 07:51 PM | #

Part 2. More information from professor Markku Niskanen, 2002, University of Oulu. I picked parts to condense the text, but there is lot more information in store. All chapters don’t follow immeadiately each other and it is not marked with (....).

“It is worth noting that the Finno-Ugrians of easternmost
Europe are quite typical Europeans (see Liptak 1980) although
they (especially the Komi) are the immediate western neighbors
of the Nenets Samoyeds, who exhibit predominantly Mongoloid
phenotypes and eastern genetic traits. This finding indicates
that the genetic roots and, therefore, areas of origins of all the
Finno-Ugrians of Europe were in Europe.

Craniometric Analyses
I used the SAS-package to compute Mahalanobis distances
between cranial samples. I used measurement batteries: B39 (35
measurements and 4 indices) and B96 (96 measurements) to
calculate Mahalanobis distances and the measurement battery
B42 (42 measurements) to extract canonical discriminant
function scores. The raw measurements were standardized for
size by using W. Howells’ c-score method (Howells 1989) and
indices were standardized by converting them to z-scores before
analyses. Most of the craniometric data used was collected by
myself (Niskanen 1994b), although data kindly provided by
William Howells is also used. The craniometric samples are
listed in Table 1. The Finns represent the Baltic-Finns in these
analyses. I have also compared recent European cranial samples
with Upper Paleolithic cranial specimens (Cro-Magnon 1,
Predmost III, Pavlov I, Obercassel I, Chancelade I, and Cheddar
I) through canonical discriminant function analyses.
I used 39 craniofacial measurements and indices (listed in
Niskanen 1994a) to calculate Mahalanobis distances between
the European cranial samples and the Buryats of the Lake Baikal
region (Table 3). These distance-values reveal how similar
(small values) or distant (large values) populations in question
are from each other. An examination of these distances reveals
that the Finns (and presumably other Finno-Ugrians as well)
and the Saami do not possess more similar craniofacial
configurations with the Buryats than is typical for the
Europeans.

Although 39 craniofacial variables provides accurate
information of craniofacial affinities of distantly related
populations, a larger number of variables is needed to gain
reliable information of population relationships of closely
related and, therefore, craniofacially similar populations
(Niskanen 1994b). For this reason, I also computed
craniometric distances by using 96 craniofacial measurements
(listed in Niskanen 1994b) to determine the craniometric
relationships of the Europeans (Table 4). ....

These distances reveal that the Finns are craniometrically very close
tothe Swedes and the Russians (mostly from northwestern
Russia), ....

Figure 1 (a
mirror image of the diagram produced by Proc MDS of SAS)
demonstrates that a plot of two dimension coefficients extracted
from distances between the European cranial samples places
these samples almost exactly where one would place them
according to their geographic locations. The Finns are placed
between the Swedes and the Russians, and the Swedes are
placed between the Norwegians and the Finns.

The Dnieper-Don region of the South Russian Plain is the
only candidate for a region from where the entire distribution
area of the Uralic languages was settled. The two competing
traditional Uralic homelands – the northeastern corner of
Europe between the Volga Bend and the Urals and Northwest
Siberia – received their first permanent human settlement from
this region. Northwest Siberia also received settlers from further
east of Siberia. It is, therefore, possible that the late Upper
Paleolithic period inhabitants of the entire Northeast Europe
and West Siberia spoke ancestral dialects of the Uralic languages
(Nuñez 1987, Julku 1995).

the Black Sea.
The earliest post-Last Glacial Maximum inhabitants of the
southeastern shores of the Baltic Sea belonged to the Late
Upper Paleolithic Swiderian culture (10,800-9700 BP / 9800-
8700 cal BC), which descended from the East Gravettian
cultures of the South Russian Plain. This culture spread to the
Oder River in the west (Schild 1996). If people of the Swiderian
culture spoke a Proto-Uralic language, the Oder River formed
the westernmost boundary of the Uralic language at the end of
the Paleolithic period.

Whether or not the people of the Swiderian culture were
Proto-Uralic-speakers, the most ancient human settlement of the
region historically inhabited by the Baltic-Finns belonged to the
Early Mesolithic Kunda culture (emerged about 8700 BC), the
roots of which are in the Swiderian culture. Finland received her
first permanent settlers from the Kunda culture’s territory in the
south (Estonia) and east (Karelia) about 8500 BC. When these
possibly Proto-Uralic-speaking groups arrived in northern
Finland around 8000 BC, they met coastal groups, who had
arrived in northern Fennoscandia as early as 9000 BC from then
ice-free region between the British Isles and Denmark by
following the ice-free coast of Norway. At that time, the inland
regions of central and northern Scandinavia were still covered
by ice (Nuñez 1987, this volume). The coastal people may have
become Uralic-speaking Saami as a result of cultural contacts
with Proto-Uralic-speaking populations inhabiting inland
regions of northern Fennoscandia. This language shift would
explain why the Saami are genetically so distinct from
Scandinavians and Baltic-Finns, but speak languages that are
quite similar to the Baltic-Finnish languages. A similar language
change apparently occurred in Western Siberia where the Paleo-
Asiatic inhabitants were linguistically assimilated by the Uralicspeakers,
giving origins to the Samoyeds.

The introduction of food production changed the linguistic
and genetic landscape of the Old World. Colin Renfrew (1987,
1992) has proposed that this subsistence shift was associated
with the spread of Indo-European languages from Anatolia over
most of Europe. Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1994) have demonstrated
with synthetic maps of principal component scores computed
from gene-frequency data that there was a population expansion
(demic diffusion) from Anatolia into Europe, which made
especially Southern- and Central Europeans genetically closer to
the Near Eastern populations. The archeological evidence (for
example, in Zvelebil 1986) indicates that the spread of farming
into northern Europe was slower and took place primarily
through cultural diffusion. As a result, North European gene
pools received less Near Eastern genes than those of Centraland
Southern Europeans and the non-Indo-European languages
survived longer. The early historical period Pictish language of
Scotland and the Finno-Ugric languages of northern and
eastern Europe represent remnants of indigenous North
European languages.

The earliest farming in the East Baltic region dates to the
Corded Ware (Battle/Boat Axe) period (3200-2500 cal. BC)
(Lang 1998). The spread of this culture over this region must
have had a significant impact on the ethnogenesis of the Baltic-
Finns. For instance, the Baltic-Finnic protolanguage is thought
to have received its Baltic loan words as a result of this event.
Central European genes arrived also. Sajantila and Pääbo (1995)
have even proposed that the Indo-European-speaking Battle Axe
people became linguistically assimilated by the indigenous
Uralic-speaking people (Lapps/Saami) in Finland. This theory is
based on observations that the Finns are genetically rather
lingistically European, while the Saami are very distinct.

Sajantila and Pääbo’s (1995) theory has three problems.
First, it is unlikely for numerically superior intruders with a
more complex social organization to become linguistically
assimilated by numerically inferior indigenous people with a
simpler social organization. Second, the Estonians and the Livs,
living south of the Gulf of Finland, are Finno-Ugrians, although
there have never been Lapps in these regions who could have
linguistically assimilated the Indo-Europeans. Third, the socalled
Lapps who lived in southern and central Finland during
the Middle Ages may have been genetically similar to the
modern Finns and distinct from the modern Saami of northern
Fennoscandia. For these reasons, I consider it more likely that
the Battle-Axe people who arrived in Finland spoke a Proto-
Baltic-Finnish language (Uralic language influenced by Proto-
Baltic languages) and that they were not markedly different
genetically from the inhabitants of southern Finland. This
theory is supported by archeological evidence from Estonia,
indicating the Estonian Corded Ware culture had an indigenous
background (Lang 1998). If this was indeed the case, the Baltic-
Finnic language phylum and people emerged in Latvia and
Estonia around 3200 cal. BC, when local hunter-gatherers came
under considerable linguistic and cultural influence of farming
populations living further south. The appearance of the Corded
Ware culture in Finland would then indicate the arrival of the
Baltic-Finns in Finland around 3200 cal. BC.

.... divergence of the Baltic-
Finns into different ethnic groups either started or accelerated
during the Bronze Age (1500-500 BC). The Scandinavian
Bronze culture arrived in the southern and western coastal
regions of Finland with Scandinavian immigrants, who had a
lasting effect on Finnish gene pools and language. The Finns
became genetically similar to the Scandinavians and received
Proto-Germanic loan words. These early Scandinavian
immigrants were linguistically and genetically assimilated into
the indigenous population.

The Middle Ages brought more Scandinavian immigrants
into Finland. The Swedish-speaking minority of southern and
western coastal regions is descended from the Swedish
immigrants who arrived during the years AD 1100-1300. This
immigration reduced the Finns’ genetic distance from the
Swedes (possibly at the expense to that to the Estonians)
because there was from the beginning a considerable amount of
intermarriage (Virtaranta-Knowles et al. 1991).

The linguistic relationship of the Baltic-Finnish and Saami
languages has led to an assumption that the Baltic-Finns and the
Saami descend genetically from the same population, and the
Baltic-Finns’ ancestors diverged from the Saamis’ ancestors as a
result of fairly recent Baltic and Germanic influences on the first
mentioned (see Häkkinen 1996 for a review). However, the
Baltic-Finns and Saami are genetically too distant from each

other to have descended from the common ancestral
population that lived only about 5,000 years ago. Therefore, it is
more likely that ancestors of the Finns and Saami separated
from each other at the beginning of the Last Glacial Maximum
about 23,000 BP and met each other again in northern
Fennoscandia around 8500 BP.
If the above argument is correct, the so-called Lapps who
lived in southern and central Finland still during the early
historical period and the modern Saami of northern
Fennoscandia were genetically distinct from each other.
Archeological evidence may support this theory. Matti Huurre
(1983) has argued that the southern boundary of the real Saami
was located near the north-south midline of Finland. The
genetic distinctness of the modern Saami of northern
Fennoscandia (for instance, the “Saami-specific motif” in their
mtDNA discovered by Sajantila et al. 1995) may have been
inherited from the earliest inhabitants of the Arctic coast, who
had arrived in the north along the Norwegian coast. These
populations, whose ancestral language is unknown, could have
become Uralic (more specifically Lappic)-speakers as a result of
cultural contacts with Proto-Lappic speaking people arriving
from the south. If this was the case, the Lapps of the southern
half of Finland would have spoken Lappic (Saami) dialects, but
were genetically similar to populations living further south in
the East Baltic region. These southern Lapps were also
incorporated into the gene pool of northward expanding
Finnish populations during the Middle Ages. The reason why
their genetic contribution to the gene pool of the Finns is not
detectable may be their genetic similarity with the assimilators.

Conclusion
Whenever the Finns’ ancestors arrived in Finland, we cannot
deny the European origin of the Baltic-Finns and other Finno-
Ugric people based on available physical anthropological and
archeological data. The genetic and possibly linguistic ancestors
of most of the Finno-Ugrian people were very likely the huntergatherers
who inhabited the periglacial zone located between
the Carpathian Mountains and the Volga River during the last
glacial maximum. We could say that from a purely physical
anthropological point-of-view, the Baltic-Finns are either the
easternmost Northwest Europeans or the westernmost Northeast
Europeans.”

Continued ....

Posted by a Finn on March 09, 2009, 07:55 PM | #

Part 3.

Henkipatto, I ask two questions from you:

- Are you a Finn-Swede?

- Do you have an Asian or other non-Finnish wife?

Posted by a Finn on March 09, 2009, 08:17 PM | #

Part 4:

I wrote: “Side note: Among all the other lacks of your genetic knowledge, you thought that there might be a clade of M214-M231-LLY22g-N3. M231 is equivalent to LLY22g polymorphism.”

Addition: That is the genetic clade that don’t exist. Part of the reasons are stated above.

Posted by a Finn on March 11, 2009, 08:26 PM | #

Small addition: There are now over 200 000 foreigners among about 5,2 million inhabitants in Finland, mainly concentrated in the largest cities and towns. Many of them are quite strange looking. I can discern them easily from Finns, but some of them might confuse foreign visitors.

Posted by Henkipatto on March 12, 2009, 04:45 PM | #

‘a Finn’ wrote:

“Genetic structure in Northern Europe with 250K SNPs”

- Yes, these and other similar results are correct, and that’s what I stated above. There are some genetic similarities between Finns and some eastern Finno-Ugrians, as would be expected. However, the decisive factor is which way those genetic influences went.

The study I linked to didn’t incorporate data on eastern F-U tribes. From the study:

When data from HapMap Han Chinese+Japanese and Yoruba individuals was included in the analysis, the MDS plot of IBS formed a triangle of the three continents in the first two dimensions, with the third dimension separating the European populations clinally from each other (Fig. S3).

We then compared the numbers to the null hypothesis that all the five populations stem from the same proto-European population (approximated by the CEU frequencies) from which they have subsequently diverged via genetic drift in the absence of admixture. In such a case, one would expect the number of markers drifting into a given direction (e.g. towards the Asian frequencies) to be similar across the populations, whereas a varying degree of eastern admixture in each population would result in disparate marker proportions

‘a Finn’ wrote:

About facial and skull features:

“The Baltic-Finns and, as a surprise to many people, also the
Saami exhibit clearly North European phenotypes. Epicanthic
eyefolds, flat faces, coarse straight hair, and other Mongoloid
traits are not encountered among them more frequently than
among other Europeans (Coon 1939, Brues 1977).”

From Coon’s ‘The Races of Europe’:

Morphological observations on modern Finns are rare.

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/09-11.htm

‘a Finn’ wrote:

I have never seen a Finn with e.g. epicanthic eyefolds.

You haven’t looked closely enough. Pekka-Eric Auvinen is an ethnic Finn from southern Finland:

http://jk666.webng.com/underground/jokela/naturalselector8cc5.png

and has epicanthic folds (zoom in to see more clearly). What he did is irrelevant, so I’m hoping you won’t cling to his persona.

A specimen verging on the Uraloid phenotype is also Laura Lepistö:

http://yle.fi/urheilu/lajit/muut/taitoluistelu/2008/12/kuvat/id131294-kuva1.jpg
http://www.marsky.edu.hel.fi/TallaViikolla/I000F2A98.0/Laura Lepistö EM-kultaa 2009.JPG
http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/urheilu/luistelu/2008/580017.jpg

Pedomorfic facial features, oblique eyes with the soft tissue distribution around them nearing epicanthi. For comparison, a more classic Europid female morphology:

http://www.findance.com/kuvat/uutiskuvat/paivilepisto.jpg

‘a Finn’ wrote:

I saw that in recent debate in Finland you tried to prove epicanthic eyefolds exist in native inhabitants of Finland. You used a picture of Saami man (natural choice, but of no use) who laughed and grinned, and at the same closed his eyes. That is laughable, but I don’t laugh.

Correction: I demonstrated existing mongoliform phenotypes present in the westernmost F-U populations. The pictures I used were these:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/cass22/lundborg/Lappish_2.jpg
http://www.saminuorat.se/media/38955.jpg

Are you implying that a Europid phenotype suddenly changes to Mongoloid when a person smiles? That’s just hollow and akin to the multicultural tenets of ‘race is only skin-deep’. I’d like our fellow MR posters to chime in and tell me their opinion: does the fellow smiling in the second link represent an exclusively European phenotype?

Side note: Among all the other lacks of your genetic knowledge,

Which are? Please, educate me.

you thought that there might be a clade of M214-M231-LLY22g-N3. M231 is equivalent to LLY22g polymorphism.

Now you’re lying:

Y-chromosomes that display the M231 and LLY22g mutations that define Haplogroup N and Haplogroup N1 but do not display any of the downstream mutations that define the subclades N1a (M128), N1b (P43), and N1c (TAT) are said to belong to Haplogroup N1*. Y-chromosomes that display the M231 mutation that defines Haplogroup N but do not display the LLY22g mutation that defines Haplogroup N1 are said to belong to Haplogroup N*.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)#Origins
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpN09.html

Raises the question: why?

There are two possibilities:

a) you are lying consciously, in which case you are a hypocrite for regarding the works of Finnish and Soviet anthropologists, linguists and archaeologists tainted with personal motives and dismissing their works as propaganda

b) you made an honest mistake due to lack of better knowledge, in which case you are not the one to belittle my knowledge of genetics

Which is it?

And, I wrote thusly: “(määrittävät mutaatiot kulkevat M231—>LLY22g—>TAT)”. I stored the text I wrote back then.

For those not familiar with the issue at hand: Y-chromosomal haplogroups are genetic markers - mutations - that are located in the male sex chromosome Y. Since the chromosome Y is passed on from father to son, these genetic markers represent paternal lineages and are used to construct phylogenetic trees. Now, the haplogroup N (especially the subclade N3, nowadays named N1c) is characteristic of Uralic (including Finno-Ugric) peoples - in Europe the haplogroup (along its subclade N1c) is found only in areas populated by Finno-Ugrics. A phylogenetic tree of Y-chromosome haplogroups can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup

The hotspots of the ancestral N are found in Siberia. Haplogroup O is a close cladistic brother group with Haplogroup N and it’s exclusively Asian. The ancestral haplogroup ‘NO’ and its subclades (descendant haplogroups) have, according to genetic studies, arisen in Asia (the older ancestral haplogroups are centered in Siberia). As such, how can the haplogroup N (including its subclades) be regarded as European? Here’s a distribution map of the haplogroups:
http://www.geocities.com/grpadm/HgN.JPG

The most (if not the only) controversy surrounds the N3 subclade. Some studies point that because the N3 subclade is more diverse in Eastern Europe, it should follow that it has originated there. A more thorough analysis of the diversity, however, points east:

In order to reconstruct the history of Y-chromosome haplogroup (hg) N dispersals in north Eurasia, we have analyzed the diversity of microsatellite (STR) loci within two major hg N clades, N2 and N3, in a total sample of 1,438 males from 17 ethnic groups, mainly of Siberian and Eastern European origin. Based on STR variance analysis we observed that hg N3a is more diverse in Eastern Europe than in south Siberia. However, analysis of median networks showed that there are two STR subclusters of hg N3a, N3a1 and N3a2, that are characterized by different genetic histories. Age calculation of STR variation within subcluster N3a1 indicated that its first expansion occurred in south Siberia [approximately 10,000 years (ky)] and then this subcluster spread into Eastern Europe where its age is around 8 ky ago. Meanwhile, younger subcluster N3a2 originated in south Siberia (probably in the Baikal region) approximately 4 ky ago. Median network and variance analyses of STR haplotypes suggest that south Siberian N3a2 haplotypes spread further into Volga-Ural region undergoing serial bottlenecks.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17703276
http://www.geocities.com/grpadm/Derenko2007.pdf

Local diversity is produced by migrations.

‘a Finn’ wrote:

For these reasons, I consider it more likely that
the Battle-Axe people who arrived in Finland spoke a Proto-
Baltic-Finnish language (Uralic language influenced by Proto-
Baltic languages)

Not likely, considering the heavy Indo-European linguistic impact (Baltic and Germanic loanwords f.e. of agricultural technology). Were it the other way around, we’d see more Finnic cultural and linguistic influence further south and west.

Henkipatto, I ask two questions from you:

- Are you a Finn-Swede?

- Do you have an Asian or other non-Finnish wife?

No, I’m not a Finland-Swede, although I’m slightly Freudenthalist by spirit. No, I’m not married at all, and I don’t feel any attraction towards the Mongolid phenotype whatsoever. Furthermore, possible ulterior motives, which you have no possibility of proving, do not invalidate an argument, however convenient it might be.

Posted by a Finn on March 15, 2009, 07:59 PM | #

I start by thanking Henkipatto for generously and unintentionally providing me part of my answer. My answers start with (-):

“When data from HapMap Han Chinese+Japanese and Yoruba individuals was included in the analysis, the MDS plot of IBS formed a triangle of the three continents in the first two dimensions, with the third dimension separating the European populations clinally from each other (Fig. S3).

We then compared the numbers to the null hypothesis that all the five populations stem from the same proto-European population (approximated by the CEU frequencies) from which they have subsequently diverged via genetic drift in the absence of admixture. In such a case, one would expect the number of markers drifting into a given direction (e.g. towards the Asian frequencies) to be similar across the populations, whereas a varying degree of eastern admixture in each population would result in disparate marker proportions”

- You don’t understand what I wrote. I have provided evidence that founder effect, bottlenecks and genetic drift have differentiated Finns to some extent from Europeans and it is the likely source of N3 in Finns. I have never suggested that this would explain all or majority of genetic resemblances to Siberians. For that I have suggested Finno-Ugric and/ or other comparable European migration to Siberia. I have given evidence for it above and here is more.

Yakuts in northeastern Siberia have high frequency of N3 (Remember, the population you offered as “a evidence” of Finnish Siberian origin). Well, even they far in the east have significant European heritage according to the following study. Thus, one more evidence that European migration to Siberia provides an answer to the genetic similarities between northern Europeans and Siberians, and might explain the origin of N3 (From Europe to Siberia). Some back migration of the original or mixed populations probably spread more N3 to the populations near Siberia.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1000078

The Li et. al. paper suggests Yakuts are autosomally about 10% European. Yakuts have less than 20% European mtDNA.

““The Baltic-Finns and, as a surprise to many people, also the
Saami exhibit clearly North European phenotypes. Epicanthic
eyefolds, flat faces, coarse straight hair, and other Mongoloid
traits are not encountered among them more frequently than
among other Europeans (Coon 1939, Brues 1977).”

“Morphological observations on modern Finns are rare.”“

- From your linked paper:

“On the whole the Finns are physically just what one would expect from their history; an
amalgamation between an intrusive eastern Finnish population, Scandinavian Nordics, and
earlier elements local to the eastern Baltic shores. The Finnish invaders seem, here as in
Esthonia and among the Livs, to have preserved in many instances their characteristic cranial
and facial morphology, while at the same time undergoing a great increase in size, and some
increase in blondism, ....”

“Pekka-Eric Auvinen is an ethnic Finn from southern Finland”

- “In children

All humans initially develop epicanthic folds in the womb. Some children lose them by birth, but
epicanthic folds may also be seen in young children of any ethnicity before the bridge of the
nose begins to elevate. They may persist where birth is pre-term, and sometimes also where
the mother is alcoholic. [4]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicanthal_fold

Auvinen is highly unusual looking among Finns and his origin is unclear. When I talked about his case with a friend he said spontaneously: “He looks like a Russian or a mixture of a Finn and a Russian” My impression also. Consider also the following:

* Auvinen has epicanthic right eye, but more normal left eye. It might be that his Asian look is due to a developmental defect. His abnormal Asian look might have been, unfortunately, the reason that he was bullied in school.

* Auvinen might be an extreme case in the Gaussian curve diversity.

“A specimen verging on the Uraloid phenotype is also Laura Lepistö”

- She is highly unusual looking and if her picture would be shown to Finns they would guess that she is some other ethnicity than a Finn. We don’t know what heritage her parents have. And again the case of possible extreme cases arises (birth defect or natural extreme case). Anyway, in one of the pictures where her eyes can be clearly seen, they are not epicanthic.

“The pictures I used were these”

The first is from questionable origin, Swedish racialist, who selected only handsome and noble persons to represent Swedes; less handsome and more aggressive looking persons to represent Finns; and people looking to have birth defects to represent Saami people.

The second picture about Saami man, now that it is more clear, seem to represent epicanthic eyefolds, whatever is the reason for them (genetic or some of the above). This is first time I see a Saami with a epicanthic eyefolds.

“Now you’re lying”

- No:

“Marker M231 is phylogenetically equivalent to the more cumbersome
LLY22g polymorphism, initially used to define
haplogroup N.” (Rootsi et. al., 2006)

“In order to reconstruct the history of Y-chromosome haplogroup (hg) N dispersals in north Eurasia, we have analyzed the diversity of microsatellite (STR) loci within two major hg N clades, N2 and N3, in a total sample of 1,438 males from 17 ethnic groups, mainly of Siberian and Eastern European origin. Based on STR variance analysis we observed that hg N3a is more diverse in Eastern Europe than in south Siberia. However, analysis of median networks showed that there are two STR subclusters of hg N3a, N3a1 and N3a2, that are characterized by different genetic histories. Age calculation of STR variation within subcluster N3a1 indicated that its first expansion occurred in south Siberia [approximately 10,000 years (ky)] and then this subcluster spread into Eastern Europe where its age is around 8 ky ago. Meanwhile, younger subcluster N3a2 originated in south Siberia (probably in the Baikal region) approximately 4 ky ago. Median network and variance analyses of STR haplotypes suggest that south Siberian N3a2 haplotypes spread further into Volga-Ural region undergoing serial bottlenecks.”

- I actually read the whole paper, not just the abstract and it is interesting. Finns were not mentioned in the paper, but according to the ethnicities’ N3 variations, N3a2 spread stops well before Finland and Baltic countries. Thus the Finnish N3 STR diversity (the largest, 0,32) can’t be explained with N3a2. This means that the case of indigenous Finnish origin of N3 became stronger still. Also this might mean Finnish origin of much of the N3 outside Finland.

“Not likely, considering the heavy Indo-European linguistic impact (Baltic and Germanic loanwords f.e. of agricultural technology). Were it the other way around, we’d see more Finnic cultural and linguistic influence further south and west.”

- Professor Markku Niskanen said that the invaders were Baltic. You acknowledge that Finnish language have many Baltic influences (More precisely, large proto- Finno-Baltic language heritage). Remember that modern day Finnish language did not exist then. Professor Niskanen’s theory fits to the known archeological and other facts.

“No, I’m not a Finland-Swede, although I’m slightly Freudenthalist by spirit.”

- Freudenthal was a Finn-Swede, who hated and despised Finns. That explains a lot.

“.... Furthermore, possible ulterior motives, which you have no possibility of proving, ....”

- Do you mean that you might be Finn-Swede after all? Asian heritage?

Anyway, you were careful not to answer a lot of information.

Posted by a Finn on March 15, 2009, 08:28 PM | #

I wrote: “The first is from questionable origin, ....” I add - mark before it

Posted by a Finn on March 15, 2009, 10:50 PM | #

I wrote: “The first is from questionable origin, Swedish racialist, who selected only handsome and noble persons to represent Swedes; less handsome and more aggressive looking persons to represent Finns; and people looking to have birth defects to represent Saami people.”

- These are the pages I evaluated years ago in this site. Some of the “Finns” there are actually typical Swedes (e.g. so called horse face) or other non-Finns or highly unusual, probably birth defect Finns.

I asked about possible Finn-Swede origin of Henkipatto, because of this; typical trajectory of some insecure Finn-Swedes in American racialist sites:

He notices that some racialists think that Finns are Mongols (or something) and they reject Finns.

- Finn-Swede starts abject stuttering, contrary to the facts, that he is not a Finn and has no Finnish genes. 3/4 of Finn-Swedes have Finnish origin and almost all of the rest of them are hopelessly and thoroughly mixed with Finns. The few and extremely rare non-mixed Finn-Swedes are mixing fast to Finns (It is the norm). So, if you think that Finns are Mongols, Finn-Swedes and all kinds of Freudenthals are even worse. They are the Trojan horse that want to smuggle those most horrible Mongol genes to every other ethnicity and destroy them. I mean the Finns are happy Mongols, happy about themselves. They don’t want to mix with anyone. They recommend endogamy to everyone and want to protect everybody’s genes. But those insecure Finn-Swedes! They would prevaricate, beg on their knees, demand and develop a handsome ploys with all their desperation just to get a sniff of non-Mongol European female! They become the most ardent Freudenthals that empty all their venomous gut contents regularly above the Finns (In the secure anonymity of internet, of course, because Finnish fists are hard and cruel).

So, all the members of this site, say it aloud to yourselves: Finns and Finn-Swedes are lousy Mongols! Finn-Swedes have the least hope among the nations!

P.s. My viewpoint can be found in my previous posts in this thread.

Posted by a Finn on March 15, 2009, 11:02 PM | #

Addition: Normal Finn-Swedes (insecure Finn-Swedes excluded) are normal Finns to me, like brothers.

Posted by a Finn on March 17, 2009, 11:36 AM | #

Addition: Henkipatto is not debating in good faith. I have answered all the information he has provided, but he ignores all the evidence that is contrary to his preconceived vision. E.g. all the evidence (Coon 1939, Brues 1977, Niskanen, 2002, etc.), show that Finns looks are European and this is their average looks (Easily confirmed by walking among Finns). This doesn’t please Henkipatto, so he ignores it all, provides a link to a document and detaches an insignificant sentence from it. But by reading the whole document one finds that the document confirms my view. Then he goes on to find individuals, whose genetic origin is unclear, who might be extreme cases and/or who might have birth defects, and who certainly don’t represent any average.

He repeats this same dishonest pattern concerning other information, genetic, archeological, linguistic, etc.

I show how Henkipatto’s method works; here is an average Englishman:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Atkinson_Rowan.jpg/606px-Atkinson_Rowan.jpg

Most of the Gypsies in Finland are lighter coloured and/or have more European looks. I chose Rowan Atkinson, because he is so well known. Even more non-European looks can be found among English. But we don’t know what ancestors Atkinson has, or how extreme case he is among the English or if his looks is due to exceptional mutations or developmental disorder. E.g. English colonialist have brought home many foreign wifes, especially Indians from India. Atkinson could be descendant of such marriages.

This same selective pattern can be repeated among other European nations. This is made easier by e.g. Turkish and Middle-eastern influx to Germany 5000 years ago, extensive intermarriages among all the Mediterranian nations, conquests, wars and empires (consequent intermarriages), etc.

I have provided information that individually and especially together (arrows pointing to the same direction) indicates that Finns have an European origin.

If, however, you feel that the information in all my previous posts in this thread (Excluding the comedy post, but what I said in it about Finn-Swedes origins and ethnic mixture is true) have been too difficult to understand and you are unsure about Finnish origins, I recommend this; better to be safe than sorry; tell all your friends and others that Finns and Finn-Swedes are Mongols, and that they should be avoided as potential spouses. This have several good effects:

* It increases impermeability of our groups, thus de facto endogamy of Finns/ Finn-Swedes and others.

* It is objectively, concerning the facts, unjust towards Finns and Finn-Swedes. This serves as an ethnic rallying point to Finns and Finn-Swedes.

* It makes Finns and Finn-Swedes to look inward and see their undeniably strong ethnic qualities and abilities as the foundation of their identity and at the same time reduces any international identity of the Finns and Finn-Swedes (alternative identities).

* The situation is unstable and it can be changed to the advantage of Finns and Finn-Swedes. This includes a threat; it is possible that when the situation is corrected, Finns and Finn-Swedes could return to a more international identity. So any correction in the situation must include that Finns and Finn-Swedes achieve their own new position that is coherent with their ethnic identity.

* All this comes with a price; Finns’ and Finn-Swedes status is reduced among Europeans and maybe some others, but all good thing come with a price to pay or payoffs. I am more than willing to pay it.

(Giles and Powesland, 1975; Mullen et. al., 1992; Brown, 1984a; Brown, 1984b; Brown and Abrams, 1986; Festinger, 1954; Byrne, 1971; Diehl, 1988; Rocca and Schwartz, 1993; Tajfel and Turner, 1986; Ellemers et. al., 1988; Ellemers et. al., 1993; Ellemers et. al., 1997; Abrams et. al., 1998; Rosenberg and Simmons, 1972; Brown, 1965; Vollebergh, 1991; Lemaine, 1966; Brown, 1978; Jackson et. al., 1996; Mummendey and Schreiber, 1984; Brown and Ross, 1982; Ng and Cram 1988; Turner and Brown, 1978; Wright et. al., 1990; Simon et. al. 1998; Kelly and Breinlinger, 1996; Blanz et. al., 1998; Mummendey et. al., 1999; Brown and Haeger, 1999; Grant and Brown, 1995)

Posted by a Finn on March 17, 2009, 11:41 AM | #

English colonialist—-> English colonialists

Posted by a Finn on March 17, 2009, 12:56 PM | #

I wrote: “... but what I said in it about Finn-Swedes origins and ethnic mixture is true.”——> 3/4 of Finn-Swedes have Finnish origin and almost all the rest of them are thoroughly mixed with Finns. The few and extremely rare non-mixed Finn-Swedes are intermarrying fast to Finns (It is the norm).

Posted by finns and facts on March 17, 2009, 03:09 PM | #

Finn,

That’s a whole lot of writing to establish what you have every right to take for granted: that you’re perfectly fine.  Intelligence and beauty are real and genetic and some groups possess more of them than others (and other groups are eroding them—argh), so racialism can produce shocks to the system, which is why it’s so often claimed and so readily believed to be “morally abhorrent.”  So many lies are spoken about race that that after finally hitting upon the truth it’s tempting to believe that racialism really does have the power to decide for us the regard we ought to hold ourselves in, but nothing of the sort is written into the fabric of the universe, no hapmaps and dendograms required.

Racialism can be resolved by accepting that races/racial groups/ethnic groups/ethnoracial groups—whichever term is preferred—are and have probably always been (at least since the advent of agriculture) fuzzy sets.  Every group has its outliers.  This is easy to accept among stabilized breeding populations.  But working backwards towards it after a rapid infusion of large numbers of alien elements is proving difficult (leading me to quip elsewhere: nobody ever doubted the existence of the white race until racialists tried to prove it).

For example, you say: I show how Henkipatto’s method works; here is an average Englishman:

Rowan Atkinson is hardly an “average” Englishman (an attempt to knock the English down a notch or two?), but before the influx there’d have scarcely been any reason to wonder.  Working backwards, however, forces people to confront difficult questions.  Peter Hitchens, on the other thread, was assaulted for being 1/32 “jewish” (or whatever it was), apparently detectable by his disheveled appearance.  (Racialism has clearly raised expectations: Peter Hitchens isn’t going to be giving birth to Nicole Kidman any time soon.)  And what of that model’s brother in the recent vdare letter?  Tricky stuff. And to think that England should really be one of the easier countries to correct.  But since virtually no one (Desmond maybe?) would would deny these people what should at once be obvious is that it is manifestly not “only blood that matters — BLOOD IS EVERYTHING, THE REST IS NOTHING!”  Races are fuzzy but how to win the loyalty of the original outliers without having them scrounge around for others to include so that they’re not low man on the totem pole?  How does a “mongolic” Finn (or Hungarian) advocate for his people without being spat on by the central variety?

Posted by Fred Scrooby on March 17, 2009, 04:00 PM | #

The comment by “Finns and Facts” (aka Silver) is 95 percent bullshit.

Posted by Armor on March 17, 2009, 04:34 PM | #

Every group has its outliers. (—Big Thinker)

And there is a fuzzy border between Silverland and Cuckooland !

Posted by Desmond Jones on March 17, 2009, 06:21 PM | #

(leading me to quip elsewhere: nobody ever doubted the existence of the white race until racialists tried to prove it).

Interesting. However, it runs against the historical record.

The term “Nordic” itself was initially proposed as a racial group by the Russian born French anthropologist Joseph Deniker (1852– 1918)in 1899. Deniker’s use of Nordique was meant to simply translate as “Northern”, and his idea of what it stood for was more akin to an “ethnic group” (another term which he coined) than a biological “race”. He defined nordique by a set of physical characteristics: The concurrence of fair, somewhat wavy hair, light eyes, reddish skin, tall stature and a dolichocephalic skull.[25] Of six ‘caucasian’ groups Deniker accommodated four into secondary ethnic groups, all of which he considered intermediate to the Nordic: Northwestern, Sub-Nordic, Vistula and Sub-Adriatic, respectively.

It was Jews like Boas and Hirschfeld that used fraudulent data to assert otherwise.

Posted by a Finn on March 17, 2009, 06:27 PM | #

I wrote: * It increases impermeability of our groups, thus de facto endogamy of Finns/ Finn-Swedes and others.

I add: Impermeability between groups increases sticking with the ingroup (There is less possibilities to leave the group; the effect increases when impermeability is based on factors that can’t be changed, such as ethnicity), but the ingroup should be made good to live in, it’s status as good as possible, such comparisons should be made between groups that are advantageous to the ingroup and strong identity constructed from natural good elements; otherwise group members might start to leave the group when permeability between groups increases. Sticking with the group should not be dependent on outside factors, but to such loyalty to the ingroup that withstands any changes in outside factors, and to such rules and such group structures (networks of groups) that make the changing of essential core elements inside the group structures impossible. Networks of groups are good, because, among other things, if one group’s rules become more liberal (and eventually part of the ingroup members always become too liberal), there are always other groups that stick to their rules. They react to the liberalization of one group by becoming more conservative with their rules (Threat of liberalization, intermarriage and later breaking of the groups to pieces). There are differences in the network’s groups and these serve as material to group evolution. The most enduring groups in the network survive the test of time and changes.

finns and facts: “an attempt to knock the English down a notch or two?”

- No, just a way of showing that this kind of malicious thing can be done with any ethnicity. Rowan Atkinson’s dark entity happened to pop up in my mind first. I have nothing against the English.

Also, you felt compelled to answer, when you felt your group’s status, where your identity is, was “threatened”. Good to keep in mind, in case your answer wasn’t trolling.

“BLOOD IS EVERYTHING, THE REST IS NOTHING!”

- Wasn’t that loud shout a bit exaggerated to your answer? Ethnicity is everything only in a proper context of other things.

Posted by a Finn on March 17, 2009, 06:46 PM | #

I add: Also the group network solves the problem of criteria of acceptance; everybody can form groups that fit their criteria of endogamy. The metarule is that every group must follow at least some minimum endogamy. Endogamy can be connected to status, so that benign endogamy competition arises between groups. This competition must be counterbalanced with cooperation and common goals between groups, so that endogamy or other competition between groups doesn’t get out of hand (hostile competition).

Posted by a Finn on March 17, 2009, 10:23 PM | #

One more addition; trajectory of the insecure Finn-Swede in the comedy post is true, if it is described in matter of fact language.

Posted by a Finn on March 18, 2009, 03:53 PM | #

finns and facts wrote: “BLOOD IS EVERYTHING, THE REST IS NOTHING!”

- Also, as this refers to other ethnicities and races, I comment it further. Every ethnicity and race regards itself as the most important and best, and selects the evaluation criteria to show it’s best aspects. This is natural. It applies also to artificial loose groups, like liberals, which deny the existence of natural, because they think, erroneously, that it “limits their [political] possibilities”. Thus equality between groups are empty, lying words. It doesn’t follow from this that other groups are “nothing” or that they should be “nothing”. The other groups will always be somewhere, and it requires that relations are arranged in some way with them. It is mutually advantageous to the groups.

I understand that on the grass roots level, where the foreign ethnic reality is felt at it’s full force, psychologically tough stance is necessary. Just keep other alternatives in your back pocket, in case we one day live in a different, better reality.

Posted by Big Sinkair on March 19, 2009, 07:01 AM | #

The comment by “Finns and Facts” (aka Silver) is 95 percent bullshit. (—Scrooby

If that’s true then frankly I think I deserve a pension from the SPLC. (And hey 95%, not 100%—that’s progress.)

Interesting. However, it runs against the historical record. (—Desmond

Are you suggesting a definition was achieved?  So is Rowan Atkinson English?  Or does he get packed off to Wales?

Posted by Desmond Jones on March 19, 2009, 02:09 PM | #

Are you suggesting a definition was achieved?  So is Rowan Atkinson English?  Or does he get packed off to Wales?

That’s up to the English and the Welsh. No doubt Canada will take him. They let everything in but the tide.