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KMDKevin MacDonald’s three books on Judaism as a group evolutionary strategy are hugely important. How many of us have read at least one of them? How many of us are in agreement that it takes a group strategy to beat a group strategy? Are we dunnets or are we cuckoos? I say we are neither, that we are not the parasite, that we will not host the parasite, that we are that bird that rises always from his own flames, and that there is no other. I have been called the Mies van der Rohe of the marsupial right; I do not deny it. Posted by Søren Renner on Monday, March 13, 2006 at 09:27 PM in That Question Again Comments:2
Posted by James Bowery on March 13, 2006, 10:38 PM | # There are people who believe that a symbiotic relationship can be developed between Europeans and Jews. I am one of those people but I do not believe it is nearly as easy as most who defend the presence of Jews among us. The means by which we can develop symbiosis with Jews is the same way symbiosis is developed with any pathogen: an evolutionary history of shared fate, also known as “vertical transmission”. The problem is that Jews are not just very averse to policies valuing vertical transmission—they are among the most, perhaps the most hostile of any ethny to policies valuing vertical transmission. The best hope Jews have of becoming symbiotic with Europeans is to self-limit their migratory ability for to precisely the extent that they resist migratory policies they promote horizontal transmission and hence vectorism not just within others but within themselves as well. Failing that the best Jews are the Zionists who are willing to:
Such Zionists should enjoy our moral if not material support. The President of Iran claims that a territory should be set aside in eastern Europe rather than Palestine but this ignores the fact that there are at least some Jews, the Sephardim for example, that are blood relatives of the Palestinians and do have an organic right to the territory from which they were expelled millenia ago. He is correct, however, that most Jews are Ashkenazi and do belong closer to eastern Europe. The precise geography of the Ashkenazi needs to be better located with modern bioinformatics and an appropriate territorial allocation made. As to what we do with worst of the Jews… well… 3
Posted by Mark Richardson on March 13, 2006, 10:53 PM | # James, you are never going to develop any kind of relationship with Jews if you compare them to “pathogens” and if you make such open-ended threats to “the worst of them” as you did at the end of your comment. Who could blame Jews for continuing to act in fear against us if this is the white nationalist view? I don’t know if some kind of alliance is possible. However, as the influence of Islam grows in the West, and both Jews and Israel become more vulnerable, it’s not impossible to imagine some Jews turning away from an open borders ideology. I think we should keep an open mind on the possibility that political circumstances might change. 4
Posted by Geoff Beck on March 13, 2006, 10:57 PM | # Hey Mark, So, you just give Jews a free pass on Russia? How many of your good Christians were murdered at their hands? And you are worried about Isreal? 5
Posted by Steve Edwards on March 13, 2006, 11:00 PM | # ” it’s not impossible to imagine some Jews turning away from an open borders ideology. “ Some will, but I doubt a majority. 6
Posted by Zach on March 13, 2006, 11:44 PM | # I have not yet read any of KMD’s books, but I have read some of his work that he has online, as well as an essay of his in another book, in addition to what I have picked up from MR. I can only describe his work as profound, and recommend everyone reading it. I don’t agree with every one of his assertions, but those capable of independent thinking can certainly read it and take away whatever gems they find; there is no supernatural mind tricks in it which will turn one into a National Socialist by just reading it. As for working with the Jews, one of the common Jewish traits which I have personally observed again and again is the remarkable degree of what can only be described as paranoia. As much as it is easy to think of opportunities where we and Jews could work together, I doubt that it can ever happen except in cases of small numbers of the more eccentric elements, or instance of bare necessities. Working together not only requires trust, but the sense that the other side is acting and will act in a rational and predictable manner. The Jewish tendency to see a Nazi behind every tree, to believe the boy scouts could morph into Hitler’s Youth tomorrow, to believe that the rest of humanity has nothing better to do than “get the Jew”, these are all parts of a much bigger fantasy world that they live in and which we do not, and never will. Just as they are blinded by their own ethnocentric bubble, so are those of us from a high altruism group equally blinded. In any case, the main interest I have in the JQ is how that we can counter the “immune suppressant” element of their survival strategy, so as to preserve the West and remove the degenerate media and cultural influences. It is not so much that Jews (or even a minority of them) are out there doing all kinds of bad things or causing all the problems the world has; rather, it is the way that they have both championed and acted toward the establishment of things which have damaged or destroyed the feedback and control mechanisms by which free people regulate their political, cultural, and moral spheres of society. 7
Posted by john on March 14, 2006, 12:05 AM | # Whites would have to form a group stategy before any kind of understanding could be reached with jews. How could it be otherwise? 8
Posted by James Bowery on March 14, 2006, 12:39 AM | # James, you are never going to develop any kind of relationship with Jews if you compare them to “pathogens” and if you make such open-ended threats to “the worst of them” as you did at the end of your comment. Then you are of the opinion that it is impossible for people like me to form productive relationships with Jews. I disagree. There are Jews who recognize the peripatetic history of Jews has created a very virulent pathogenic trait within their people. Among those are Zionists of the type I speak. I haven’t met them personally but I do believe they are out there doing their best to create a real Jewish nation. As for open ended threats, you can bet your bottom dollar Jews routinely make such open ended threats about the “worst of the white nationalists” and they have support from people like yourself. 9
Posted by ben tillman on March 14, 2006, 01:16 AM | # Yes, I have read all three. Together with David Sloan Wilson’s two books, they are the most essential reading in political philosophy. 10
Posted by ben tillman on March 14, 2006, 01:33 AM | # The means by which we can develop symbiosis with Jews is the same way symbiosis is developed with any pathogen: an evolutionary history of shared fate, also known as “vertical transmission”. Of course, in theory this is correct, and one thinks immediately of the mitochondrion. But does your Zionist model produce vertical transmission? 11
Posted by ben tillman on March 14, 2006, 01:46 AM | #
Some will? Many already have, but they are young, do not fully understand Judaism, and do not yet control significant resources. 12
Posted by slinker, sailer, toldya, sly on March 14, 2006, 06:31 AM | # People need to read MacDonald’s books. Salter’s as well, which *may* clear up some misunderstandings. If I understand James Bowery correctly, he is proposing a homeland for the Ashkenazim based on their genetic structure? A reasonable proposal and yet another reason to accelerate research on the ethnically/racially distinct nuclear genome. 15
Posted by Søren Renner on March 14, 2006, 11:33 AM | # By dunnet I meant a species of bird which is sometimes the host for brood-parasitic cuckoos; but I think that the correct spelling is not “dunnet.” 16
Posted by who on March 14, 2006, 11:56 AM | # Fill up the gas-chamber, fire up the ovens—Soren is back in town. Mr. Ray: You have written long and detailed monolgues on how the Nazi’s were from the Left and not the Right. On this blog everyone is very proud of how they are from the Right. Yet this post clearly shows that one of the blogers here feels that the “Left-wing” Nazi agenda of destroying the Jews has not been completed. Why do you associate with Leftist like Mr. Renner? 17
Posted by James Bowery on March 14, 2006, 12:28 PM | # does your Zionist model produce vertical transmission Yes but not in symbiosis with Europeans. The idea of the Zionist model is that failing vertical transmission policies for Jews in European territories being reliably enforced across many generations (something like 50 generations are required, or a millenia, according to E. O. Wilson in “On Human Nature”), the next option for curing Jews of their virulence is vertical transmission within their own country. Ultimately, to be humane to Europeans, it is necessary to let some of us choose our own territories free of Jews since we are under no obligation to suffer with pathogenic Jews. I would be among those who would not want to subject my own progeny to the problems of such a long drawn-out coevolutionary cure. Others, like Mr. Richardson, would desire themselves and their progeny to be part of such a coevolutionary cure. To each his own. The main problem is identifying a means of geographic assortnment by experimental preference. 18
Posted by Stanley Womack on March 14, 2006, 01:10 PM | # Thoughts On This Issue… 1) When discussing the possibility of a genuinely cooperative effort that is inclusive of most Jews and most European Americans (North American usage for host society), the preeminent question must be answered by an examination of the past. We have access to authentic historical examples of Jewish-host society relationships from the time of the Elephantine postings of Jewish soldiery on the Nile by the Persian Empire all the way to today. From what historical experience can we draw lessons as to how to describe and implement such a cooperative effort? The concepts of “vertical transmission” and “horizontal transmission” are fascinating, but where in the vast history of ethnic relationships has such a “vertical transmission” occurred? If such a thing has never appeared in nature in the past 2,500 years, what is the basis for arguing it could appear now? 2) One of the basic problems in understanding relationships with some Jews is that their issues are placed in the central place by characterizing the situation as the JQ (the Jewish Question). That seems wrong-headed to us. We believe the proper way to frame and centralize the dialog is the EAQ (the European American Question), and perform the analysis from our side of the fence, not their side of the fence. It’s always been a puzzle to us how any discussion focuses on the needs of some Jews, not the needs of the host society. By placing the JQ in the center of the discourse, we thoroughly abandon the centrality of our interests which any negotiator will tell you is not the way to arrive at a fair outcome. Let’s make it the EAQ in North America, the EQ in Europe, and whatever initials work in Australia, NZ, and other portions of the anglophone world. 3) Noting the use of the term White Nationalism above, we respectfully suggest that the loosely-joined ideas that buttress the concept of a White Nationalism movement are impractical and unworkable for the near future. It is the European American movement (in North America) that holds the keys to the ideas and approaches that are most accessible to the uninformed, and most easily explained and implemented. The European American movement is centered on itself, and recognizes both global and local “multiculturalism,” and acts to organize itself within that framework, one that might just work to lay an effective ground. The EA movement doesn’t like the present structure of things, but believes that a WN movement will never pick up enough support to make changes. 19
Posted by slinker, sailer, toldya,sly on March 14, 2006, 01:36 PM | # “3) Noting the use of the term White Nationalism above, we respectfully suggest that the loosely-joined ideas that buttress the concept of a White Nationalism movement are impractical and unworkable for the near future. It is the European American movement (in North America) that holds the keys to the ideas and approaches that are most accessible to the uninformed, and most easily explained and implemented. The European American movement is centered on itself, and recognizes both global and local “multiculturalism,” and acts to organize itself within that framework, one that might just work to lay an effective ground. The EA movement doesn’t like the present structure of things, but believes that a WN movement will never pick up enough support to make changes. “ Terms are being compared here without being defined. 20
Posted by Søren Renner on March 14, 2006, 01:42 PM | #
If we are going to be foundationalists, then so be it. Define: term; compare; define. 21
Posted by slinker, sailer, toldya, sly on March 14, 2006, 01:45 PM | # “Fill up the gas-chamber, fire up the ovens—Soren is back in town. “ Fill up the flatulence chamber, fire up the strawmen - “who” is back in town. Where exactly has Soren called for the persecution, much less the “extermination”, of Jewish people? He has done no such thing. If I am incorrect, please cite the exact quotes wherein Soren has called for such actions. Furthermore, a number of people on this blog have expressed dissatisfaction with the right/left dichotomy and the whole nonsense of “being proud to be called Rightists.” Slurring Soren as a “leftist” completely supports comments made here in the past by JW Holliday and others. You see, ideas are not meant to be discussed and argued on their merits. Simply label certain ideas as “rightist” (i.e., “good”) or “leftist” (i.e., “bad”) and case closed! Nonsense. A better question to end a comment with is why a thoughtful person like Soren associates with John Ray. 22
Posted by slinker, sailer, toldya, sly on March 14, 2006, 01:49 PM | # Let’s see. Term being - in this context - an ideological perspective; define being to more precisely explain the characteristics of, compare is to contrast the selected items for their similarities and differences. Shall I then define “contrast” and “ideological” as well? Or, shall we pass by nitpicking and attempt to understand where Mr. Womack sees a difference between WN and European-American movement? 23
Posted by Svyatoslav Igorevich on March 14, 2006, 02:24 PM | # I’ve read all three, tore through them pretty quick. I don’t read many books, there’s just so much online. I bought M. Levin’s book recently but it’s a very dense read so now it’s just sitting on my nightstand. KMac is very accessible for an academic. 24
Posted by Svyatoslav Igorevich on March 14, 2006, 02:39 PM | #
Ben Tillman has a lovely citation on a study carried out by some psychological body or other that shows various Caucasoid religious groups and their propensities for trust; jews are by far the least, with WASPs coming in a distant second and Irish Catholics coming in dead last, if memory serves. 25
Posted by Søren Renner on March 14, 2006, 02:46 PM | # “A better question to end a comment with is why a thoughtful person like Soren associates with John Ray.” Please help me understand. I assume John Ray and JJR are the same person. JJR is a retired academic in Australia. In the 1960s or 1970s he infiltrated neonazi groups to do research. He is apparently a libertarian rightist who favors racial replacement of white Australians by Asians. In what sense do I associate with him? Only by posting here. In fact, I do wonder if even that degree of “association” is not excessive. Perhaps he is at the ideological margin of acceptability here; but I am hardly the central cynosure around which spins the MR orrery. I have half a mind to follow Wilde’s example—I refer to his famous wallpaper remark. That is, my contempt runneth over. 26
Posted by ben tillman on March 14, 2006, 02:53 PM | # Melvin Kohn did the study—Yggdrasil took it from Stephen Isaacs’s book. http://home.ddc.net/ygg/rj/rj-16.htm http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/italy_is_different/ In “Jews and American Politics” by Stephen D. Isaacs (Doubleday 1974), the author reports the findings of a survey GROUP ORDER AND SCORE +2.506 Irish Catholic 27
Posted by Phil Peterson on March 14, 2006, 04:07 PM | # I don’t know if some kind of alliance is possible. However, as the influence of Islam grows in the West, and both Jews and Israel become more vulnerable, it’s not impossible to imagine some Jews turning away from an open borders ideology. Well, if Bush’s “compassionate conservatism” couldn’t get more than 20 percent of the Jewish vote, WNs don’t have half a hope in hell. The larger question is: why should we bother? Jewish power, which is what MacDonald has written about is at its greatest in the United States (and possibly Canada), and it recedes considerably across Europe (where not one country could now be described as a proper ally of Israel). To me, as an Englishman, living in a country where the majority seems to dislike (or have no particular affinity for) Israel anyway, I regard the Jewish issue as a peripheral one. It may not, however, be peripheral in the US where Jews use their wealth and their influence to keep the borders open. One small example: a Jewish billionaire donating $100 million to the Sierra Club on the condition that the Environmentalists never rake up the immigration issue (although nothing is more important to the Environment than immigration given that it is the only source of population growth). Jews will never be allies of anything that resembles White Nationalism. Forget it. Their forefathers worked hard to open up the borders and they aren’t now about to work hard to close them. Some of them might but they are insignificant compared to the oragnized Jewish groups with millions at their disposal like the ADL, SPLC etc. Lastly, no matter what the threat of Islam, as a diasporic people it serves Jewish interests to keep the borders open everywhere so that they can scoot at the first sign of trouble. So for example, if things get nasty in France, they can run to America. They will never support immigration reform in the West because it will threaten their own interests. We should stop wasting time trying to win them over. Their interests conflict with ours. They will never converge. Let us accept that and move on. 28
Posted by Phil Peterson on March 14, 2006, 04:20 PM | # Zach, That was a brilliant comment. You really should read MacDonald’s books. I can send you a copy if you want one. I have one lying spare. 29
Posted by Phil Peterson on March 14, 2006, 04:42 PM | # Ben, That is a very interesting table. But could you elaborate on what significance this has from a political perspective? 30
Posted by ben tillman on March 14, 2006, 04:57 PM | # That is a very interesting table. But could you elaborate on what significance this has from a political perspective? In short, Jews don’t trust us; they fear us. In “Jews and American Politics” by Stephen D. Isaacs (Doubleday 1974), the (Jewish) author explains how “fear” drives affluent Jews to vote for Democrats despite the fact that the Democratic Party’s policies are designed to redistribute wealth from wealthier groups like the Jews to poorer groups. On page 148, he refers to a study performed by a Jewish researcher that concludes that US Jews are less trusting than white gentile Americans—to an astonishing degree:
31
Posted by Phil Peterson on March 14, 2006, 05:05 PM | # Well I think that seals the argument. If Jews carry so much distrust of every one else (which only a blind man would be unable to see), it destroys the arguments in favour of a Jewish-WN alliance. It also ties in with Zach’s brilliant comment above where he notes Jewish paranoia. This has been noted by many Jews themselves. Here is one example:
32
Posted by Phil Peterson on March 14, 2006, 05:08 PM | # Ben, What do you make of the WASP distrust level (second in line after Jews)? 33
Posted by Svigor on March 14, 2006, 05:14 PM | # Thanks Ben, now I can stop asking you for that. 34
Posted by Phil Peterson on March 14, 2006, 05:17 PM | # It is in fact not so much liberal as it is anti what they fear, as is clear from the record of Jewish voting for the last half century…. Precisely. The dismissal of Jewish behaviour as due to liberal delusion is a mistake. It is the behaviour of a people who have a very clear conception of their self interest and pursue it ruthlessly. 35
Posted by Phil Peterson on March 14, 2006, 05:31 PM | # I wonder if someone has picked up on another interesting facet from that table. The groupings on the Table are around ethnicity (or “origin”) not religion. So for example, Italian Catholics are far removed from Irish Catholics. Yet German Catholics AND Protestants have almost an identical score. Similarly, Scandinavian Protestants are far removed from WASPs. I would go on to say that for the purposes of that table, religion appears to be almost meaningless. I think that is a reasonable conclusion to draw. But very interesting. Thanks for posting that again Ben. 36
Posted by who on March 14, 2006, 05:32 PM | # I believe that when you start bandying aout the phrase “the Jewish Question” you begin to sound like a Nazi. That is clearly something Mr. Renner is quite comfortable with. 37
Posted by Phil Peterson on March 14, 2006, 05:43 PM | # Who, It is obvious that you are an ignoramus who likes making a lot of noise. “Jewish Question” is a term that has been used countless numbers of times throughout Western History (including by many Jews and in fact early Zionists). If anything, it describes the complex nature of the relationship between Jews and European Christians from the time Rome converted to Christianity. To say that using the phrase “Jewish Question” is a Nazi trait is another example of your over-wrought paranoia. And please don’t tell me Theodore Herzl was a Nazi. 38
Posted by James Bowery on March 14, 2006, 06:21 PM | # Stanley Womack writes:
The reason is that with better understanding of the evolutionary origins of Jewish virulence we can start to attack it more effectively. It may even be possible to track down the specific correlation structures among Jews that have evolved virulence and neutralize them with genetic therapies such as siRNA. We needn’t identify a single “Jewish virulence gene” the way, for example, a Huntington’s disease gene has been identified and treated by siRNA targeting of the huntingtin gene. The metabolic pathway for a group evolutionary entity may have quite a number of critical dependencies that are not critical dependencies for individuals. One such dependency that I have posited for Jews is an over-active parental ego state among a certain percentage of their population. This could be hormonally triggered by a gene occurring with some frequency within the Jewish group—a frequency critical to achieving various pathgenic group objectives as acquiring control of key societal functions. 39
Posted by slinker, sailer, toldya, sly on March 14, 2006, 06:28 PM | # Of interest with respect to the Jewish mistrust issue and WN is Jacob Weissberg’s ill-received speech to an AR conference, in which he stated, to make a long story short, that while American Jews dislike and fear blacks (and black anti-Semitism), they fear white gentiles *more* - hence their skepticism toward any manifestation of white gentile interests. Also note how Lawrence Auster and his Jewish correspondents keep on bringing up the “Taylor needs to purge the neo-Nazis” angle, over and over again. One point though is I wonder if the sharply negative score of Jews in that table will be “explained away” by the argument of “what do you expect after thousands of years of persecution.” That’s why the infant study is so important: Of course, who knows, apologists may say that the babies were influenced by the “nervousness of their parents”, said nervousness being an understandable reaction to persecution, etc. It may be useful to discover the actual, biological neurological causes of these differences, and to demonstrate that they are heritable. 40
Posted by Phil Peterson on March 14, 2006, 06:37 PM | # One point though is I wonder if the sharply negative score of Jews in that table will be “explained away” by the argument of “what do you expect after thousands of years of persecution.” That argument never made sense in a country like America which had no history of Jewish persecution.And yet we are treated to vicious tirades like this. 41
Posted by ben tillman on March 14, 2006, 07:52 PM | # One point though is I wonder if the sharply negative score of Jews in that table will be “explained away” by the argument of “what do you expect after thousands of years of persecution.” Doesn’t bother me in the least, because it begs the question: Why do you keep coming back for more? If you stop living among us, you won’t be persecuted. Despite the Shoah, Jews continue to trickle back into Germany. But really—what does it matter how others wish to explain such data? It is a phenomenon that has to be dealt with regardless of its cause. 42
Posted by Svigor on March 14, 2006, 08:17 PM | #
If I was a jew I’d rather die than set foot in Germany. When I first read about this migration, I just couldn’t believe it; all the whining they do, all they heap on Germans, and there they are sidling back in. It’s almost like they don’t believe their own Shoah business. 43
Posted by Svigor on March 14, 2006, 08:21 PM | #
I believe when you use indoor plumbing you begin to act like a Nazi. Then there’s wearing pants, driving on roads, speaking a Romance language, etc. Jesus, get a life already. 45
Posted by Andy on March 14, 2006, 08:54 PM | # I haven’t read KMD yet (I’ve got a few books that I already own on my to-read list that I want to get to first). I do plan on getting to them as soon as I can. I have a question for those of you who have read K-Mac. Phil Peterson cites this Auster quote:
I ask only because Auster has (viciously) attacked MacDonald for his “anti-semitism”. Is Auster definitely Jewish? It’s hard for me to tell based on his last name, and I know that he is Christian—as he mentions the fact quite often. 46
Posted by Søren Renner on March 14, 2006, 10:35 PM | # Svigor, you know how I feel about you. But I have to speak up. German is not a Romance language. 47
Posted by Zach on March 14, 2006, 11:37 PM | # Thanks Phil for your kind offer, but I have been meaning for a while now to order them all from Amazon, so I think now I will do so. 48
Posted by jlh on March 15, 2006, 12:36 PM | # In the comments thread of this post, Auster says he is an ethnic Jew who is a Christian convert: 49
Posted by JB on March 15, 2006, 03:51 PM | # Zach:
they’re paranoid solipsists James Bowery:
while he bombed Serbia Gen.Wesley Clark said : “Let’s not forget what the origin of the problem is. There is no place in modern Europe for ethnically pure states. That’s a 19th century idea and we are trying to transition into the 21st century, and we are going to do it with multi-ethnic states.” Phil Peterson:
and to keep having billions of american dollars flowing to Israel every year even though that country sells hi-tech military technology to China, is a haven for traffickers of white slavic women, has attacked the US at least once in 1967 and never apologized, isn’t a signatory for the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, regularly violates UN resolutions, etc., etc. Without the jewish media keeping a cover of all of these issues the jewish lobbies wouldn’t have such an easy task, Steve Grossman wouldn’t be able to jump from AIPAC to the Democratic Party, the ADL wouldn’t be able to offer courses in how to spot “hate” to policemen, FBI agents wouldn’t have to visit the Holocaust Museum when they are hired, etc. Speaking of a “ZOG” in America makes sense. 50
Posted by Svyatoslav Igorevich on March 15, 2006, 04:31 PM | # Damnit you two, never contradict me; if I say German is a Romance language, then by God it’s a Romance language. :D Soren, I prefer to be corrected (then I’m not wrong any more). 51
Posted by Svyatoslav Igorevich on March 15, 2006, 04:35 PM | #
We need a word for this (the wall?). I’ve seen it repeated. You have an otherwise very sensible WN or practically-WN jew who turns into a bit of a nutcase when jewry is criticized (Auster, Amren jews, etc.). There’s a hard limit that I’ve never seen a jew pass. I just accept it and move on - I like Auster’s writing too, though I’ve not read much of it. 52
Posted by David B on March 16, 2006, 05:03 AM | # “By dunnet I meant a species of bird which is sometimes the host for brood-parasitic cuckoos; but I think that the correct spelling is not “dunnet.” “ - Maybe “dunnock”, an English country name for the Hedge Sparrow. Next entry: Why 9/ 11 conspiracy theories are good for liberty Previous entry: Frank Ellis |
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I had no idea it was at Ygg’s site.
Posted by john on March 13, 2006, 10:30 PM | #
I was in Crete recently and mentioned Kmac to the desk clerk. He said he saw him on tv talking about Turkey and the EU.
I have the Praeger edition which is quite expensive now.
Yes a group strategy is required, it,s been a cakewalk so far for jews.
It was Celine who said what they fear most is community.
Dunnits?