War of Mind

In a high tech society, if one group values education and the other values valor and heroism, whether in war or in sports (the substitute for war), the group that values education will dominate the one that values valor and heroism.

Question:  Why did South Africans hand over their country to savage black man-children communists who made no secret of the fact that they wanted to kill the Whites and take everything they had?

Answer:  The South Africans were defeated in the War of Mind.

Pop culture shamed and bullied the South Africans into giving up their country.  Remember the pop stars singing “I won’t play sun city?”  I didn’t want to put any youtubes of “artists against apartheid” on this blog, but you can look it up on youtube if you want.

These pretentious “artists” are either criminals or the textbook definition of “useful idiots.”  There is an idea out there, promoted in particular white males from South Africa who get professorships, that the Boer farmers are actually “criminals.” But what, exactly, is their crime?  Here is their crime—they take care of black Africans—far better than Sally Struthers or UNICEF or Save the Children ever could.  To be sure, they are authoritarians about it.  The Boer’s dog sits in the passenger seat of the truck, the black workers ride in the bed of the truck.  The Boers entertain no fantasies that blacks are interchangeable with whites.  And that’s their real crime.  But of course, as Albert Schweitzer, a doctor who worked in Africa, wrote and won a Nobel prize for it, wrote:

“I have given my life to try to alleviate the sufferings of Africa. There is something that all white men who have lived here like I must learn and know: that these individuals are a sub-race. They have neither the intellectual, mental, or emotional abilities to equate or to share equally with white men in any function of our civilization. I have given my life to try to bring them the advantages which our civilization must offer, but I have become well aware that we must retain this status: the superior and they the inferior. For whenever a white man seeks to live among them as their equals they will either destroy him or devour him. And they will destroy all of his work. Let white men from anywhere in the world, who would come to Africa, remember that you must continually retain this status; you the master and they the inferior like children that you would help or teach. Never fraternize with them as equals. Never accept them as your social equals or they will devour you. They will destroy you.”

Dr Albert Schweitzer, Nobel Peace Prize Winner 1951 (“African Notebook” 1939)

Besides an unflinching racial realism, the Boers are hated just for being who they are—unfeminized, independent, hardy.  Indeed, the Boers are throwbacks—the kind of people we used to be, before we got soft.

However, they were vulnerable to sermonizing, and when television was permitted there in 1976, the sermonizing of Hollywood shouted down the sermons of the native preachers of racial sanity.

These strong, hardy men and women of the African velte were helpless in the face of a new threat—the television, which was introduced into South Africa in 1976.  It took only 18 years, or the time from a child born in 1976 to reach the age of majority, 1994, for the country to be lost.  Eighteen years of Jewish Mindwar, of scummy pop stars who aren’t worth the fingernail of a Boer, whining “I won’t play sun city,” and the South Africans couldn’t endure it and gave up their country.

This is why I came up with the idea of “Mindwar.”  Hollywood wages MindWar on us, but our minds actually belong to us.  They are using us against ourselves.  We can take back our minds, and teach others to take back their minds.

Successfully countering Hollywood Mindwar leads to a much higher quality of life.  Cancelling cable is just the first step.

Beyond cancelling cable, you have to practice cognitive enhancement—kind of lifting weights for the brain.  Specifically, study mathematics—even if you aren’t good at math.  The worse you are at math, the more benefit you will get from studying it.  I’m talking stuff like geometry and figuring out percentages and basic algebra.  Just studying that stuff for fun will give you a cognitive enhancement boost in your other areas of endeavour.  If you fix cars or you are a computer IT guy or a farmer or a telemarketer—it doesn’t matter.  You will do everything better than you did before.

Anyone who likes video games such as World of Warcraft would also like mathematics and physics, because it is the same kind of thing—you go into a different world.  In math, it’s a world of graphs doing things, going to infinities, or infinitely approaching a vertical or horizontal asymptote.  Calculus and physics are an infinite video game, and you’ll get a lot more earthly reward and cognitive enhancement, and even Divine Inspiration, by doing math and physics rather than playing WoW.  Wow is masturbation; calculus and physics is the real thing, and it’s far better when you are actually doing it, than you can ever imagine it.  It is an experience of heaven on earth, but unlike a drug induced high, it has no negative side effects.

It is a bit difficult, just like weight lifting involves some struggle.  But it is not impossible, as long as you start with what you can handle.  The beginning weight lifter starts with benching just the bar, or maybe just the bar and a 10 pound plate, but eventually he’s benching 200 or more.  The cognitive enhancer begins with high school geometry and algebra and probability, but he will eventually be finding horizontal and vertical asymptotes and finding the inverse of an exponential function or trig function.

We found that weight lifting is not so bad, and it became a lot more popular in the 1980’s.  Cognitive enhancement exercise can also become as common as weight lifting.

The reason Hollywood is able to wage successful Mindwar on us is becuase they have been practicing cognitive enhancement—just enough to be at least one step ahead of us.  It’s like the two campers who saw a bear coming after them.  One of the campers put on his sneakers.  The other camper said, “what are you doing, a bear is coming after us!”  The first camper said, “I don’t have to outrun the bear.  I only have to outrun YOU!”

The Jewish emphasis on education defeated the White emphasis on valor and heroism.  This is depicted in the Arthur Miller play, “Death of a Salesman.”  Charley is the Jewish neighbor:

Charley: Willy’s neighbour. He pities Willy and frequently lends him money and comes over to play cards with Willy, although Willy often treats him badly. Willy is jealous of him because his son is more successful than Willy’s. Charley offers Willy a job many times during visits to his office, yet Willy declines every time, even after he loses his job as a salesman.
Bernard: Charley’s son. In Willy’s flashbacks, he is a nerd, and Willy forces him to give Biff test answers. He worships Biff and does anything for him. Later, he is a very successful lawyer.

This is how Jews saw Whites in the 1950’s, and the key to our liberation is in this play.  Miller spills the beans on his tribe’s advantage.  Biff and Happy are all about living on glory/valor/heroism, even if it’s just boasting.  The analogy to 2012 would be the sports fans versus the Asians studying math and physics.  Of course, I think “Death of a Salesman” exaggerates the vices of White people, but art has to exaggerate to get its point across. The Jewish boy next door, the studious, nerdy Bernard ends up a lawyer arguing in front of the Supreme Court.  Biff and Happy end up in Palookaville, and Willy Loman commits insurance suicide.

So this movie is all about Jews valuing education and triumphing over the traditional American majority.  Instead of getting mad about it, we should evolve.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYlGsrSB4o&feature=related]

In a high tech society, if one group values educaiton and the other values valor and heroism, whether in war or in sports (the substitute for war), the group that values education will dominate the one that values valor and heroism.

We need to recognize the new battlefield, and value education as a path to victory on the new battlefield.  We need not give up our love of valor; we need to valorize Mindwar.

In the high tech society of 2012, where the System is unitary and centralized, and it is being gamed, we are in a War of Mind.

Posted by Kievsky on Saturday, March 3, 2012 at 08:06 AM in
Comments (257) | Tell a friend

Comments:

1

Posted by Lurker on March 03, 2012, 09:29 AM | #

Good post Kievsky, as always.

Willy Loman = low-man. Or am I reading too much into it?

As usual when the media is mentioned I must link to this site:

antiwhitemedia.com

A reminder, Kievsky has his own site as well:

Mindweapons in Ragnarok

2

Posted by Resistor on March 03, 2012, 11:23 AM | #

With regards to the Boer farmers you ask: “But what, exactly, is their crime?”

Two crimes against nature actually. They used blacks as economic slaves, then treated them like their pets to alleviate the guilt tripping from religious left do-gooders in their own camp. This quickly became an institutional part of South African culture resulting in a birth-rate boom for the native Africans. By the time apartheid fell in 1994 whites were only 12% of the population.

Yes, yes I know jews came in and radicalized some blacks with marxism towards the end but whites had sewn the seeds of their own demise generations before that.

Any new religion or code of conduct for whites in the future must contain the commandments:

~ Thalt shall not use other humans as slaves.

~ Thalt shall not treat other humans as pets.

With regards to strengthening the mind. I would suggest a study of deception as being essential. Not to learn how to decieve people but to aviod being duped. Basic conjuring with it’s simplistic concepts of misdirection, mentalism, through to the methods of people who operate as psychics who have no real psychic powers. Uri Gellar deserves special attention in that respect. He’s actually managed to convince scientists he can bend spoons with the ‘power of his mind’. Then on to scams and various organised rip-offs the biggest of which is the whole banking system.

But yeah, I do agree with the overall thrust of your message. Whitey needs to wise up and quickly.

3

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 03, 2012, 02:34 PM | #

Can’t respond in full as I’m busy with the family but…

I had to master the basics of eigenvalues and eigenvectors etc., in graduate school – it wasn’t a heavenly experience, but yes there is something very satisfying in general in mastering a topic or a skill of some kind. And education is a generally a good thing but I’m more in favour of wide education – the idea of being widely read – than too much of an extremely narrow focus - even if we do focus on one area it should not be to the exclusion of all others. I’m not sure doing maths per se helps someone to develop ‘universal’ expertise.

And yes Hollywood does produce a lot of crap – but in the exchange there is both a supply side and a demand side – some people – many people perhaps like what’s on offer. Is the customer always right – perhaps not? I know that’s a ‘thought-crime’ to an American.

On the Boers – demographics are, in a way, destiny – a tiny minority in charge forevermore was not on the historical cards. This place is called Majority Rights for a reason.

HW said:

10 - The difference between the UK and the U.S. on immigration and multiculturalism is that the UK is a small country and will be overwhelmed by immigrants much faster than Americans who can simply pack their bags and leave Los Angeles and move to Boise or Helena or the next Whitopia.

——-

OK I predict whites will lose their majority status (hence being only the largest minority) in the USA before any European nation gets anywhere near to that prospect. It’s already happening in Texas, California etc. America is on the cusp of a historical transformation into a post-Western society. Enjoy the American socio-political experiment in individual liberty as foundational – something unthinkable in any European society; really France is more deeply liberal that America? – have you ever been to France? – very little ‘propositional nation’ crap there. Or in Italy or indeed anywhere in Europe. So OK right now you can have internal white flight – yes you can run from what is more or less the fate of your nation – but ultimately you can’t hide.

Hate to say it but Tim Wise is right…tick tock. Personally my geo-political loyalties are to Scotland, Britain and Western Europe – I’m not that concerned about the coming misfortunes of the Republic – I think of it as a lost cause already.

captcha = british38

P.S. Scotland is 97-98% Euro, as approximately is Denmark - what is the % in the USA? The CIA factbook or similar might help you answer the question.

4

Posted by HW on March 03, 2012, 03:28 PM | #

How strange.

What’s the size of the UK and the Netherlands compared to the United States and Canada? The United States is one of the largest countries in the world and Americans will just keep moving to other cities, counties, and states to escape the Black Undertow and the Brown Tide.

Land is cheap and plentiful in America and there is nothing sacrosanct about the existing political configuration. California and Texas can always be subdivided into more than two states. Texas has the right to subdivide into five states as things stand now.

In Britain and the Netherlands, you also have white flight. Of course the difference is that since the English and Dutch can’t escape to their own version of Montana or Idaho in their small, densely populated countries they end up immigrating abroad, which is not something we really see in America.

In Britain, there is a large influx of non-Whites, but there is also a large outflux of Whites as the quality of life declines in the UK. Europeans also have lower birthrates than White Americans and the population in Europe is older and fewer women are in their childbearing years.

We have been hearing these kinds of prophecies for years now from Europeans. Here in the United States, California is more non-White than Alabama or South Carolina, which are whiter today than they were a hundred years ago.

Indeed, the most instructive lesson from lesson from California is that the number of non-Whites is less important than the speed of demographic change. Just thirty or forty years ago, California was a paradise known for surf and sun more than anything else.

Do you know anything about history? France, of course, is where the whole idea of a “proposition nation” came from in the first place. The French Republic abolished slavery and made their former slaves into French citizens decades before that happened in the United States.

France refuses to collect racial statistics because the French state is based on ideology. Blacks from the French colonies in West Africa sent representatives to the French parliament. They were considered an inseperable part of the French Union at the time.

Britain, of course, is the world epicenter of liberalism. It was Britain and the Netherlands that spread liberalism around the world and created a world trading system based on liberalism. Washington and New York only inherited that role from Britain and London after the Second World War.

What do you have in Britain? You have a population that is more committed to liberalism than White Americans. You have a dystopian police state that is more conformist and more politically correct and less tolerant of dissent than the one we have here.

We have flash mobs in America, but they don’t attempt to burn down our entire country on national television. If they did something like that here, they would simply be shot by White Americans.

My overwhelming impression of Britain is a country that is more committed to national suicide than our own. I look at Britain and see how things could be worse here than they are now. I’m also sure that the nature of your Muslim immigrants will prove far more explosive than our relationship with Asians and Hispanics.

There are Hispanics in South Texas about 1,000 miles from here. You live cheek and jowl among Muslims in Londonstan and can go to prison for racism. I don’t know of anyone here who would trade places with someone living in the UK.

5

Posted by HW on March 03, 2012, 03:42 PM | #

Tick, tock ... I think that is more applicable to Europe’s geriatrics living among Muslims than it is here. The worst thing that can happen in America is that we lose the Southwest to Mexico. We’re not down there in the league of Greece, Spain, and Portugal in terms of birthrates.

I can’t wait to see what happens when the “Arab Spring” starts to heat up in North Africa ten to twenty years from now. Do you think all those swelling dark masses might be attracted by the empty real estate across the Mediterranean?

Here’s something else worth pondering: what happens to Black Africa when the aging Europeans with their shrinking economies can no longer sustain the billion or so niggers down there that Bono and the like have created with foreign aid?

The U.S. Navy ought to be rusting like the Soviet Navy in Norfolk by then.

6

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 03, 2012, 03:50 PM | #

Graham it’s very annoying to hear a Scotsman boasting about Scotlands 97-98% euro ethnicity-when it was Scotsmen Tony Blair/Gordon Brown and Scottish dominated New Labour that opened the floodgates of mass immigration into England the first chance they got. Once the white population of England is no more, and the land is full of 100 million violent, expansionist, raging, muslim radical lunatics and African gang bangers, do you really expect them to stop at the invisible Scottish border?. When your future countrymen are dusting off their claymores ready to face the onslaught, it is fellow Scotsman they’ll be cursing as the ultimate source of their, guaranteed, annihilation.

7

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 03, 2012, 04:02 PM | #

ITALY

Italian: 55,818,099 - 92.00%
Romanian:1,500,000 - 2.47%
North African: 646,624 -1.07%
Albanian:466,684 - 0.77%
Chinese :188,352 - 0.28%
Ukrainian :153,998 - 0.31%
Asian (non-Chinese) :499,013 - 0.83%
Sub-Saharan Africa :324,917 - 0.54%
Latin American :285,169 - 0.47%
Other :782,549 - 1.29%

SCOTLAND

White: 4,960,334 - 98.19%

Scottish: 4,459,071 - 88.09%
Other White British: 373,685 - 7.38%
White Irish: 49,428 - 0.98%
Any other White: 87,650 - 1.73%

Mixed: 12,764 - 0.25%
South Asian: 55,007 - 1.09%
Pakistani: 31,793 - 0.63%
Indian: 15,037 - 0.30%
Bangladeshi: 1,981 - 0.04%
Other South Asian: 6,196 - 0.12%
Black: 8,025 - 0.16%
African: 5,118 - 0.10%
Caribbean: 1,778 - 0.04%
Other Black: 1,129 - 0.02%
Chinese: 16,310 - 0.32%

USA

Not Hispanic or Latino: 258,267,944 - 83.7 %

White: 196,817,552 - 63.7 %
Black or African American: 37,685,848 - 12.2 %
Asian: 14,465,124 - 4.7 %
Mixed: 5,966,481 - 1.9 %
American Indian or Alaska Native: 2,247,098 - 0.7 %
Some other race: 604,265 - 0.2 %
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander: 481,576 - 0.2 %

Hispanic or Latino: 50,477,594 - 16.3 %

White: 26,735,713 - 8.7 %
Some other race: 18,503,103 - 6.0 %
Mixed: 3,042,592 - 1.0 %
Black or African American: 1,243,471 - 0.4 %
American Indian or Alaska Native: 685,150 - 0.2
Asian: 209,128 - 0.1 %
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander: 58,437 - 0.0 %

Now I’m not clear why the likes of Hunter Wallace thinks America represents a ‘whitetopia’.

Is there a Western European nation with only 60%-ish whites?

P.S. I misspoke with regards to Denmark - it is approximately 90% Danish with, in recent years, Eastern Europeans moving to Denmark – still rather better than a 63-71% white population (dependent upon one’s definition of white).

Enjoy the exciting diversity of the American dream!

The West is not America - the West existed before the new world was found - it will also exist in post-American age. How arrogant and historically ignorant that Americans should think otherwise.

captcha = evidence11

8

Posted by HW on March 03, 2012, 04:23 PM | #

I caught this just the other day.

Funny how Graham keeps portraying Western Europe as some type of bastion of ethnonationalism and America as a bastion of liberalism when you have a “European Court of Human Rights” that issues verdicts like this one against Italy:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/23/italy-human-rights-migrants-libya?newsfeed=true

Italy violated human rights by returning migrants to Libya, court rules

Italy violated international human rights laws when it intercepted migrants adrift in the Mediterranean in 2009 and returned them to Libya, the European court of human rights has ruled.

The Strasbourg court ruling on Italy’s Berlusconi-era “push back” policies – since suspended – is now likely to play a key role in shaping future EU immigration policy at a time of political and economic upheaval in north Africa.

“It is the first time a court has recognised the unlawfulness of the push back operations with regard to international law and human rights,” said Andrea Saccucci, one of the Rome lawyers representing the migrants. “We are very satisfied, and hope it will prevent similar actions in the future.”

The 11 Somali and 13 Eritrean nationals represented in the complaint were part of a group of 200 migrants, including children and pregnant women, who left Libya in 2009 on board three boats bound for Italy. . .

“I am very happy inside,” the 27-year-old Eritrean national told the Guardian in a telephone interview from Rome. “I am thanking God.”

Each of the 22 migrants represented were awarded €15,000 compensation in the judgment.

9

Posted by HW on March 03, 2012, 04:38 PM | #

This was in the New York Times yesterday:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/books/review/the-rise-of-multigenerational-and-one-person-households.html

At the extreme end of her analysis is a country like Italy, where 37 percent of 30-year-old men live with their parents, and have never lived anywhere else. . .

Not the least of these is a generation’s failure to generate. At present there are four workers in Europe for every pensioner; by 2050 there will be only two workers for every retiree.

Graham prattles on about “American individualism” even though European individualism is far more radical and destructive than its American counterpart:

He also takes us to Sweden.

The country interests Klinenberg for what he finds there — 47 percent of households with one occupant, as opposed to 28 percent in the United States — just as it interests Newman for what she doesn’t find there: namely, a large enough incidence of accordion families to count as a phenomenon.

The birthrate in Italy is 1.39 per woman.

http://www.indexmundi.com/italy/total_fertility_rate.html

This disguises the fact that non-Italians immigrants are raising the Italian birthrate. The real birthrate is somewhere around 1.1 per Italian woman.

More on Italy here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageing_of_Europe#Italy

The region of Liguria in northwestern Italy now has the highest ratio of elderly to youth in the world. Ten percent of Liguria’s schools closed in the first decade of the 21st century. The city of Genoa, one of Italy’s largest and the capital of Liguria, is declining faster than most European cities with a death rate of 13.7 deaths per 1,000 people, almost twice the birth rate, 7.7 births per 1,000 people, as of 2005.

 

10

Posted by HW on March 03, 2012, 04:53 PM | #

Graham,

Well, let’s see: if my country is a continent sized aircraft carrier, your small, densely populated, heavily urbanized island is more like a submarine. Thus, national statistics tell us little about the quality of life for White Americans.

Los Angeles, CA is 2,008 miles from Nashville, TN. To put this in perspective, New York City is 3,459 miles across the Atlantic Ocean from London, which is only 404 miles from Edinburgh.

California is majority non-White, but it is also on the other side of a continent. No one in my family lives anywhere near California. Personally, I have never even been there. So what does it matter to me if there are a lot of Mexicans in Southern California?

BTW, it looks like “Mohammad” is now the most popular name for baby boys in your country:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1324194/Mohammed-popular-baby-boys-ahead-Jack-Harry.html

The continent sized aircraft carrier can take on a lot more water and stay afloat for a lot longer than the submarine which will run out of time much faster.

11

Posted by HW on March 03, 2012, 05:00 PM | #

When the submarine decides to style itself as a “nation of immigrants” and begins to take on water, the comparative impact on the indigenous population is far greater:

Emigration soars as Britons desert the UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1569400/Emigration-soars-as-Britons-desert-the-UK.html

Britain is experiencing the greatest exodus of its own nationals in recent history while immigration is at unprecedented levels, new figures show.

Last year, 207,000 British citizens - one every three minutes - left the country while 510,000 foreigners arrived to stay for a year or more.

The British made up more than half of the 400,000 moving abroad - yet only 14 per cent of immigrants were UK nationals coming home.

12

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 03, 2012, 05:02 PM | #

For those of us looking to the wise old heads for advice, direction, inspiration and guidance, to see you arguing over who’s going to get ethnically cleansed first, is somewhat worrisome. But do carry on. Tick, tock, tick, tock, tick…...

13

Posted by HW on March 03, 2012, 05:44 PM | #

Britain has its own version of “white flight”:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2105311/Net-migration-UK-stuck-250-000-despite-Camerons-tough-talk-slashing-numbers.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Immigration has swelled the population by a quarter of a million people in just 12 months despite the government’s pledge to cut net migration, official figures showed today.

The figure – the number of people added to the total population after immigration and emigration are both taken into account – has remained steady since it peaked at 255,000 in the year to September 2010.

Net migration for the year to June 2011 was 250,000.

The Government has pledged to cut net migration to 1990s levels of the tens of thousands by 2015….

But net migration has been going up rather than down and is currently running around 15,000 higher than when David Cameron entered Downing Street

The latest figure is up from the figure of 235,000 for the year to June 2010, according to the ONS.

The non-Whites are pouring into Britain from Asia and Africa, and the Whites are pouring out. In America, the non-Whites are pouring into the United States, but the Whites are just moving to other cities and states, not abandoning the country altogether.

The good news though is that at least the British are not dying out like the Japanese or the Spanish or the Italians. Immigration has boasted the birthrate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9119210/Immigration-slows-rate-of-ageing-population-official-figures-suggest.html

A spokesman for the ONS added: “There is a greater proportion of women of child-bearing age within the immigrant section of the population, there is a bulge in terms of the child-bearing age and the optimum working age community.”

But Dr Jonathan Cave, an economist and expert on population trends at Warwick University said: “In addition to immigration of young people who may have children, we have many older people who are migrating abroad.”

Overall the average age of people in Britain now stands at 39.7 and is projected to rise to 42.2y 2035.

So the truth of the matter seems to be that the British are immigrating abroad, non-Whites are immigrating to Britain, and they are taking advantage of the welfare state to have more children, which has boasted the British birthrate, while the native British are rapidly aging and still have a low birthrate like the other European countries.

Great success!

14

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 03, 2012, 06:27 PM | #

Wallace why don’t you stick to proclaiming how bogus all rights talk is, the evils of equality and social solidarity – however conceived - the total wonders of individual liberty and the radical evil of collective identity and agency in the ‘land of the free’. Europe has problems, of course, and it’s actually England, particularly London that has some of the biggest problems (perhaps the worst problems in this regard in Europe).

But anyone that maintains that America is not the most deeply and foundationally liberal society in history, doesn’t know very much about history or political philosophy; plus at only 63% Euro-American - frankly it really doesn’t matter if it’s Euros leaving or Mexicans coming in - there is only one way that figure is going. Down in double quick time. But no you’re right Europe will disappear and as Mark Steyn suggests it will be ‘America Alone’ as the last outpost of the West – yeah that sounds really plausible. I don’t think the political elite would dare follow Ronnie Reagan and have yet another massive amnesty for illegal aliens – no never – simply cannot happen…yes?

Personally I’d much rather have 63% ethnic Europeans as a demographic starting point than say those silly Italians with 92% ethnic Italians – where on Earth can I sign up for the blessing of America? The USA might be in the process of rapidly becoming a total shit-hole along the lines of a very nasty Brazilian-style society, but golly gee you’re an American and at least you’re free! Europeans be warned – we must copy the USA in all regards - anything else is suicide!

15

Posted by HW on March 03, 2012, 06:55 PM | #

Graham,

I believe you were the one who brought up California.

Perhaps you brought up California without realizing that the state became majority non-White in a relatively short period of time - in two or three decades - primarily because massive immigration from Mexico and the high non-White birthrate was exacerbated by white flight to other states in the United States.

Of course that is what we are seeing now in the United Kingdom and the Netherlands: massive numbers of non-Whites moving into these two countries prompting an outflux of Dutch and British to other countries. Isn’t it funny how you are crowing over the demise of the U.S. when your fellow citizens are abandoning ship to move to Canada, Spain, and Australia?

That is very reminiscent of what happened in California. States like Alabama and Mississippi have always had large non-White populations, but California went from being a very White state to a predominantly non-White one in just a few decades. Meanwhile, Mississippi kind of stagnanted and didn’t attract many immigrants.

16

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 03, 2012, 07:00 PM | #

Dicks. Fuck it, i’m moving to Iceland.

17

Posted by HW on March 03, 2012, 07:30 PM | #

Graham,

You’re right.

I’m profoundly ignorant of history. See, I was under the misguided impression that American citizenship was based on race until 1965, but France had abolished slavery in 1794 in the name of the Declaration of the Rights of Man, and had even declared that all the black former slaves in the French Empire were French citizens.

I was also fooled into believing that France and Britain had spearheaded the abolition of slavery in the name of liberal humanitarianism. Blacks from the French colonies in Africa sent representatives to the French parliament. Americans were also shocked in WW1 and WW2 by how regularly black soldiers would date and miscegenate with British and French women. There were riots on American military bases because the British and French had such a low level of racial consciousness and didn’t practice segregation.

Historically speaking, the most liberal section of the United States is New England. That is because New England was more under the influence of Britain than other parts of America. The fashionable Manchester liberalism of the late nineteenth century was exported from Britain to New England like all the other ideological diseases of Europe including anti-slavery fanaticism and communism.

The future of Europe is clear enough to discern: a rapidly aging population that begins to capsize when deaths begin to outstrip births, millions of Europeans flooding out of countries like Britain and the Netherlands and heading for the colonies, economic collapse brought on by shrinking markets and an aging workforce, and the grande finale when the blacks and Muslims laugh a Camp of the Saints invasion across the Mediterranean.

In fact, the invasion across the Mediterranean is already in progress. I suspect it will get much worse now that your Orwellian European Court of Huamn Rights has ruled that illegal aliens from Eritrea and Somalia can seek damages for being returned to their own countries.

Take every negative trend in America and look at Europe and you will see it is much worse. The birth rate is lower. The natives have been disarmed. The thought police is much worse. Unemployment is higher. Young people are more likely to move abroad. The political class tolerates less dissent than its American counterpart. The type of non-Whites coming are more dangerous.

I think your country has crossed the Rubicon after the blacks launched a revolution and your response was to throw Emma West in jail and take her child away. The white flight tells me that Britons are giving up on Britain. What would they fight back with if they had the will to do so?

North America is a vast continent. Whites will survive here for centuries long after your little island has long been overwhelmed by the Mohammeds and absorbed into the Maghreb. If America loses the Southwest, a limb is amputed and we return to Andrew Jackson’s borders, but such a blow is not nearly as fatal as losing London would be to the UK.

18

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 03, 2012, 07:47 PM | #

One of course must also draw a distinction between a régime and the many decent people that have to survive under it as best they can. The ideological régime that is expressed in the notion of Homo americanus is profoundly non-European. Sadly Americans seem to get rather upset when this is pointed out to them. Cognitive dissonance has strange effects – it must be hard being both the most exceptional and unique nation in history and strangely also the universal social-order at the same time.

But given the largest Jewish population outside of Israel and the craven almost colony-like status of the USA to Israel perhaps Homo americanus-israeli is a better taxonomic classification?

It’s not very interesting drawing up new fantasy borders with the USA - I do think its rather unlikely as Americans are a pragmatic bunch – a society which measures happiness by the banalities of consumer trinkets (to an extent unseen perhaps in recorded history) will be pliable so long as the majority of folks get to have enough creature comforts – there’s no turning back the last man now. Far too late for that I would think.

19

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 03, 2012, 08:18 PM | #

...Are you heaven on Earth
Or the gloom of the grave?

...Praise the Lord
and Praise the Holy Spirit
to save us from your
Freedom, Justice, Peace
Accordance and Illusion…

...America the end of history.

A fragment or two from ‘America’ by Laibach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGQCUoafFI8

20

Posted by HW on March 03, 2012, 08:32 PM | #

Graham’s posts are typical of the sort of boilerplate anti-Americanism that you find among European romantic nationalists. It takes a breathtaking level of historical ignorance to subscribe to such a delusional worldview.

Oh, where to start?

1.) Do we start in Mexico and Peru which the Spanish looted of their gold and silver? Do we start in the Caribbean where the American gravy train attracted those romantic nationalist pirates from England and France?

2.) How about in Africa during the days of the European controlled transatlantic slave trade or in New York City when it was New Amsterdam and modelled after Amsterdam which was the world center of capitalism at the time and harbored Jewish refugees from across Europe?

3.) As for evangelical Christianity, where did these Protestant sects called Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians that you find in America come from? Do we take a trip back in time to Britain in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries?

4.) What about liberalism? Maybe we ought to read some of those great European thinkers like John Locke, John Stuart Mill, and Condorcet and Kant.

5.) Capitalism you say? How do we explain the existence of places like Barbados and Virginia. What were the British doing in India? How did they end up in Hong Kong or Singapore or trying to addict the Chinese to heroin?

6.) What about soul crushing anomie? Should we go back to Britain when enclosure drove those romantic peasants out of their fields? Maybe to a romantic place like a slum in Birmingham or London where child laborers were abducted and sent to the cane fields in the West Indies?

7.) Surely, the radical egalitarianism and the anti-racism that we find in Europe today came from the Americans who pioneered world communism like Marx and Engels, or the earlier American radicals like Robespierre and Fourier and the Abbe Raynal.

8.) The Americans invented consumerism. They were the ones who created those must have consumer items like, say, sugar and coffee which the Americans grew on their plantations in Jamaica and Barbados.

9.) It was also the Americans who forced the British to put the Afrikaners in concentration camps for Cecil Rhodes could get at their gold. Americans also forced the British to put the Rhodesians and Kenyan colonists under a black majority government.

21

Posted by HW on March 03, 2012, 09:07 PM | #

Britain has always been more liberal than the United States.

1.) It was Britain that led the way to industrialization and urbanization, not the United States. Most Americans were living on family farms when London was the financial capital of the world and was promoting the doctrine of international free trade as the superpower of its day.

2.) The British spent years criticizing American protectionism while their own industries were hollowed out by American and German competition.

3.) The British were at the forefront of creating political liberalism and laissez-faire capitalism. They were also at the forefront of creating evangelical Christianity.

4.) The British were the world leaders in the world’s first radical utopian social movement: the anti-slavery movement. Garrison and his followers were just getting started when the British were suppressing the international slave trade and abolishing slavery in he West Indies.

5.) The British were at the forefront of creating modern humanitarianism when they launched their campaign against King Leopold II’s Congo Free State.

6.) As the pioneer of world capitalism and the market economy, the British were consumed earlier by labor strife and unionization and radical leftwing politics related to the clash between labor and capital.

7.) The British changed their immigration laws to allow non-whites from the colonies to settle in the UK over a dozen years before that happened in the United States.

8.) It was the British who started the war against Hitler and transformed it into a crusade against racism, anti-Semitism, and nationalism. Such a war would never have happened if the British had not been so committed to liberal internationalism at the time.

9.) Finally, the British have long had a modern consumer economy, and they even created colonies for the purpose of exporting commodities like cotton, tobacco, rice, sugar, and tea back to he UK.

None of this is likely to put a dent into the fantasy of romantic nationalism though. The whole doctrine is based a false and idealized vision of he past.

22

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 03, 2012, 09:52 PM | #

And yet both the USA and UK march on, hand in hand, creating new atrocities by the day, new enemies that will look to reek future vengeance on the offspring of the perpetrators of today’s crimes against humanity. Debates are had, predictions of impending doom are made, intellectual willie’s are waved ad infinitum. While those who are least responsible for carrying out any of these historical events, those that bear no blame for generating the unsatiable lust for revenge, those that had no say in the formation of the world that they will inherit. It is they that will feel the full force of the whirlwind as the hordes sweep down upon them. It is they that will have no identity as their lands and their very right to exist are taken away. It is they who will know fear, despair, slavery and loss. It is they that will cry out ‘where were our fathers. What were they doing while there was still opportunity to forestall this terrible fate’. They are your children, all of them. whether they are from America or Britain. The wrongly much maligned youth of today, in truth possibly the best generation we have ever seen. Staring into the jaws of oblivion yet so misguided, deceived and betrayed that they don’t even know it. Enough, gentlemen. This ends now. The tools, courage, and strenth to resist must be found, before it really is too late. What is happening is unnaceptable, white genocide is simply unnacceptable. We CANNOT allow it to happen. Or we must all perish in our attempt to defeat it. There is no other way now.

23

Posted by HW on March 03, 2012, 11:12 PM | #

I’m not sure what set Graham off on this tangent about America’s imminent demise. Here in the United States, we watched the blacks attempt to burn down the United Kingdom last summer. We watched the black thugs force the disarmed helpless Whites to strip naked in the streets of London:

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/dm.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OgnRYLGhvOE/TkEkR5ZwB2I/AAAAAAAAEjA/hOQ9rHLdESE/s1600/riot2.jpg

You know, I think that is going to turn out to be a major factor in the future. The blacks wouldn’t have gotten away with rioting like that in America. They would have been met with armed resistance like they were in Los Angeles and New Orleans.

A month ago, Dante Lamont Williams attempted to rob a Waffle House in Spartanburg, SC. A customer in the Waffle House had a concealed carry permit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prUHzkpsPQI

24

Posted by Dan Dare on March 04, 2012, 12:47 AM | #

And yet, it seems likely that the United States will in the course of the next couple of generations, thanks to a third-world style growth rate largely fuelled by immigration, achieve a population of going on for 500 million (from a little over 300 million today). Of these something in the order of a little over 200 million are likely to be European-American.

It strikes me that Hunter Wallace might be usefully engaged on focusing on issues a little closer to home.

25

Posted by HW on March 04, 2012, 01:45 AM | #

I was searching for the immigration/emigration numbers to the UK when I noticed there were 591,000 new arrivals and 339,000 emigres in 2010. The number of emigres looks pretty consistent over the last decade.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/56912000/gif/_56912031_intl_migration_464.gif

What does that mean? That something like 3.4 million Britons left the country over the last decade? In a country of about 62 million people. The most popular destinations are Australia, New Zealand, Spain, and the United States.

26

Posted by HW on March 04, 2012, 02:09 AM | #

The Beeb is saying that the UK is a proposition nation based on tolerance, freedom, democracy, and fair play.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17218635

Do Robert Mugabe and Nelson Mandela still have their knighthoods?

28

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 04, 2012, 05:20 AM | #

@Dan

Precisely and even if those projection are not quite 100% accurate – who can say? - the notion that Euro-Americans will continue to be an absolute demographic majority, within the life-time of say Tim Wise’s kids, is without any credibility. Political sociology 101 – they will experience a potentially devastating loss of political power and influence over the shape of that society. It’s not as if all those Mexicans (and others) are going to become WASPs overnight on arrival – the USA is the on the cusp of post-Western status and far more rapidly than any European society – and what is more under the surface it is already a deeply weird and increasingly non-European society – a simulacrum of Europe, yes the outer form is present but little of the substance – a zone of Baudrillardian hyperreality.

As for inorganic propositional nations – yes people come out with that crap in England or France but no-one believes it in their bones – there is simply too much history here for such nonsense to have traction – but many millions of Americans truly believe it Mr. Wallace – you might not but millions upon millions very sincerely do believe in the proposition nation. That belief makes it a political and cultural reality.

Why such ideas have little relevance in Europe is in part because Europe is the area that gave birth to us in evolutionary terms, cultural terms, in every way imaginable. If Europe is not the legitimate home of Europeans then nowhere is – if we are not rightfully the indigenous tribe of Europe then who on Earth is – sub-Saharan Africans? Now matter how subterranean and buried such feelings are in everyday life I’d suggest the vast majority of Europeans have such a world-view – can that honestly be said of Americans – for all of you bluster Euro-Americans are in grown foreign soil - whichever way you want to cut it. We are not – that difference is massively important.

29

Posted by Leon Haller on March 04, 2012, 05:33 AM | #

Interesting exchange between Hunter and Graham. I’m limited in my comments these days due to external time constraints, but I fear the most depressing points you both make are the correct ones. In other words, both the US and UK are in racially bad shape, and getting worse by the day. It’s difficult to say which will survive longer. White Americans are racially more liberal than Europeans (but not it seems European leaders), but personally tougher and more conservative. I really wish Lister or other Europeans would explain why the Europeans seem to be so liberal. I can understand a certain class-warfare form of social democratic engineering as a modern reaction to centuries of feudalism (I still condemn it, however). But what makes Europeans so indifferent to the alien invasions of their ancient homelands? How can a normal Englishman not resent seeing a f——- mosque on British soil?!

And what would possibly cause British police commenting on an anonymous police blog to loudly declaim against my own racism, which consisted in nothing more controversial than repeatedly pointing out that the looters last summer were mostly black, and that blacks can never be truly British, as one aspect of Britishness is white racial identity? I was shocked. The ideological rot goes very deep in the UK. An anonymous police blog in the US would almost certainly generate a lot of racist comments during the course of a black race riot! 

For all the European ethnonationalist’s talk about his own nation’s ‘thick’ culture and deep history, the reality is that, if that were really a true description, parties like the Front National and the BNP would have skyrocketed to power a long time ago. The problem of immigration is not like the problems associated with government controlled money and banking, which are complex and not easily understood except through patient study; it is visceral and easy to see. Indeed, immigration as an issue must be nearly the simplest of all problems facing Western societies. And yet, no reaction. The brutal truth is that antiracism is a peculiarly white psychological disorder prevalent in our time. It does not respect boundaries between Old and New worlds.

30

Posted by Leon Haller on March 04, 2012, 05:37 AM | #

I repost from the “seeking to be” thread:

Posted by Leon Haller on March 03, 2012, 08:59 AM | #

If taken seriously this is something of an epochal shift in our ontological self-conceptualization to say nothing for our economic, cultural and social modalities. We are ‘divine’ not because we are made in the image of a rational ‘God’ but because the ‘divine’ exists at that moment when Being knows itself - touches itself – and hears its own ‘song’. In replacing the onto-theological story with one of an onto-poetic story of immanence might we affect the re-enchantment of the natural world and in turn of ourselves – the revelation that we are worthy of life-sustaining love. Existentially and ontologically this striving of being-in-the-world towards a fullness of being, a striving manifested in the perpetual ethical dialectic between autonomy and solidarity, self and others is wrongly identified as the ‘will to power’ in Nietzsche’s pseudo-naturalistic ontology, but in reality is ground in love. The objective is to defend this Philia and with it the life-principle, from every social deformation rooted in thantos, the death drive or will to nothingness. The defense of Being understood as not Absolute but as this being-in-the-world, this brute animal existence is not merely affirmation of the wonder of sensuous being. It is a vigorous ethic and passionate politics to defend our life-world. Today is the fight for life, the fight for a properly formulated love of ourselves and our histories, our cultures, our collective survival and flourishing. Is this not the political fight?(Lister)

A lot of interesting stuff. I wish I had more time to engage it.

1. Could you possibly state the above more simply?

2. What - in simple terms - does all this interesting critique of liberal selfhood have to do with the political problems of nationalism? I’d like to know where you’re trying to get to with this approach to the race problem. I have certain suspicions in that regard, but I’d like to hear from you.

Indeed, I’d like to know why you think a critique of modern race-liberalism from within classical liberalism is inadequate (I mean philosophically; as you’ve alleged implicitly, and as I’ve pointed out explicitly, in the US your approach to arguing against racial PC would get you nothing, and not merely because it might be too intellectually complex for most: it is simply too alien as well). I happen to disagree, as I suspect HW would, too. Some systems are purely dysfunctional (eg, the Aztec sacrificial system, communism - a different form of human sacrifice); others are objectionable on strictly moral grounds (Nazism, Islamism, Idi Amin’s cannibalism - in addition to Aztecism and Sovietism). But classical liberalism, at least from a Christian moral standpoint, is not obviously evil. And under its broad aegis arose the mightiest, freest, and for a time even wealthiest nation of all - so clearly, “empirically”, it can work (and please don’t fool yourself, Graham: no, America would hardly be perfect sans nonwhites, but that fact does not obviate the contention that most of our degeneracy is due, directly or indirectly, to the nonwhite presence; America without nonwhites, even if it included those dreaded Jews, would be a very, very powerful and desirable country).

3. This type of deep critique of the Western crisis is all very interesting, and obviously the purpose of a metapolitical nationalist website. But of what practical use is it? Wouldn’t it be more useful to argue from within than without a majoritarian ideological tradition, esp insofar as we both inhabit democracies?

4. Your reference to irreligious Denmark obviously does not negate Murray’s broader point. Do you see that, or disagree?

31

Posted by Headhunter on March 04, 2012, 07:48 AM | #

Leon H-  The English do resent 3rd world immigration and mosques on UK soil to a a large extent. This resentment has little outlet and no support in our ultra liberal media and ‘owned’ political class. BNP/EDL style groups are extremely unattractive to most UK citizens although there is widespread respect for what they are doing and for the way they resist the establishments attempts to shut them, and their message down (similar to Ron Paul in the US). While the London street gangs were ransacking London unmolested by the police, in a largely white enclave called Eltham an instant defence militia was formed. Their every move was hounded by the authorities, they were kettled, and squished. This incident highlights the problems any white resistance faces. It is attacked immediately from all angles, discredited , and destroyed. The brutal hand to hand trench fighting of the Falklands war, along with the bravery and fighting prowess of UK soldiers dropped into isolated outposts in hostile territory in Afganistan, suggests we are not complete pussies. Guns, we have not. The English do not need them to a large extent, and if we had had them, by now we would have successfully managed to ethnically cleanse ourselves. Do not take take any events up ‘til now as an indication of what the final outcome will be. Because, believe me Mr Haller, the English have not yet spoken.

32

Posted by Kievsky on March 04, 2012, 07:49 AM | #

Two crimes against nature actually. They used blacks as economic slaves, then treated them like their pets to alleviate the guilt tripping from religious left do-gooders in their own camp. This quickly became an institutional part of South African culture resulting in a birth-rate boom for the native Africans. By the time apartheid fell in 1994 whites were only 12% of the population.

Yes, yes I know jews came in and radicalized some blacks with marxism towards the end but whites had sewn the seeds of their own demise generations before that.

Any new religion or code of conduct for whites in the future must contain the commandments:

~ Thalt shall not use other humans as slaves.

~ Thalt shall not treat other humans as pets.

Brilliant.  Thanks Resistor.  I agree completely.

Thanks for the compliment and the plug for my site Lurker!  Yes, I think that Loman refers to “low man.”  He is the portrait of a man built on what we would now call “hype.”  Like a very energetic Amway guy.

Death of a Salesman is not at all about WN’s.  Most of us know skills, and live a life fixing real problems, rather than just blowing bubbles of hype into the air.  But I know Willy Loman types—they are typically older white men who made some money at their business and now operate scams like Habitat for Humanity or Refugee Services.  They figured out that being a scammer for Multiculturalism is easy money.  Their biggest goal in ilfe is to be able to afford to go to expensive restaurants every night.  No joke.  And maybe be able to play golf at “expensive” country clubs.  These are kind of people who never real grew up.  Most such men do not actively support Multikult; but the ones who find they can make some money at it do so.
They are scared shitless of anyone who thinks more deeply than them though.  The functioning economy shelters the casual, greed motivated traitors from stronger moral forces in their communities.  That won’t always be the case.
This is why YKW is bringing in non-whites as fast as possible.  They know the game is almost up, and they need their darkie army for the final showdown.
Whites will revert to what is natural to us the moment they can no longer pay a professional class of white traitors to police the rest of us.  We will revert to type; we will become natural men again once the black magic of Hollywood wears off.
Hollywood is a one way street of ideas pumped into the skull jelly of the 98% or so who are susceptible to it.  All of human history has been a history of idea exchange directly between people, like reactions catalyzed by enzymes.  The substrate fits into the enzyme active site and the reaction happens, and the product is spit out and the enzyme binds with another molecule of substrate, rinse repeat.  But if there’s an inhibitor molecule, it binds to the active site of the enzyme and doesn’t allow substrate to fit in any more.
Hollywood acted as inhibitor molecules, binding to our active sites to prevent our real idea exchagne from binding to the active sites.  We used to run our society based on first hand exchange of ideas.  Now it is mediated by the System to a high degree of abstraction, it is a black box, it is proprietary software and we do not have access to the source code.
So we lost our collective consciousness for a century to a gang of Ashkenazic warlocks, the black magicians of the silver screen and advertising industry, the inhibitors of our Mind.  They took Mind and made it Top Secret and Licensed it for their own exclusive use, by convincing us to let ourselves be dumbed down.
But the open source code is out there.  Mind is ours for the taking, if we would just do it.
Their time is running out.  It was a century long run, while they had control over our minds.  But they are mismanaging the economy and we are being plunged into poverty and desperation.  Thus we will be forced to do idea exchange, and we will shove the remaining inhibitors aside quite violently, and do what we need to do to continue to metabolize, to survive.
Mind has been anaesthetized and soporified for a century, like Rip Van Winkle, but it is not dead.  And so now Mind reawakens and we shall see amazing things in the coming decades.

33

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 04, 2012, 08:24 AM | #

Wow, a brilliantly written and most informative post from Mr Headhunter. May I flippantly add, that the French are, indeed pussies, the Italians are big girly men, and the Germans are yet to enter the fray (the sparks will surely fly when they do). Similar to our recent joint military adventures it is likely that the grunts from the US/UK will bear the brunt of the fighting, if it gets to that stage.

34

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 04, 2012, 10:27 AM | #

Kievsky, been looking at your site bro, it’s awesome, thank you. Back to lurking for me, sorry for all my dumbass comments everybody. Just very frustrated and upset by all this. Please understand. (Headhunter was me by the way-evidence-idiot can’t break text into paragraphs).

35

Posted by Kievsky on March 04, 2012, 10:51 AM | #

Thanks uKn Leo!

HW,

Great news from England!  Polarization will help our cause, because it won’t go away, it will ony get stronger and build and build.

36

Posted by Alaric on March 04, 2012, 12:04 PM | #

Scrolled through the comments. Noted that most commentary was made by the fat mongoloid Hunter Wallace and his cohorts Graham Lister and the completely kooky Haller, accompanied by the mindweapon-gunner Kievsky.

Closed the site.

37

Posted by Kievsky on March 04, 2012, 12:16 PM | #

HW,

That was a hilariosu video by the Korean Christian who wished he could have taken Dante Lamont Williams out for waffles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prUHzkpsPQI

38

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 04, 2012, 12:23 PM | #

Busy with the family so can’t respond to or read all the comments but someone said:

“Because, believe me Mr Haller, the English have not yet spoken.”

I agree in so far as most of the immigration has been into England and the English are 80%+ of the territory and population of the Isles – in that sense it has to be an English awakening to a predominantly English problem – the Celts are fairly marginal to this process and certainly nothing like the dominant political actor on the stage.

And on America – no-one would suggest it still would not be an important and powerful nation for a long time to come – great powers take some time to fade but fading it is and part of that story is in the transition to a ‘post-Western’ population which is fast approaching. When the likes of Tim Wise can bait Euro-America about ticking-clocks it’s not too far away.

P.S. I’m nothing whatsoever to do with Mr. Wallace thank you very much.

Now I’m going to watch a show about male Welsh voice choirs. Catch you all laters.

39

Posted by HW on March 04, 2012, 12:47 PM | #

Graham has immersed himself in an alternative reality where the “Conservative Party” in the United Kingdom doesn’t support gay marriage, where the Archbishop of Canterbury doesn’t endorse sharia law, where the Black Undertow doesn’t strip White people of the clothes in the streets of London, where White teenage girls aren’t groomed for sex by Pakistani gangs, where the Queen doesn’t bestow knighthoods on homosexual pop stars like Elton John and black terrorists like Robert Mugabe and Nelson Mandela, where “witchcraft” isn’t becoming a threat to children, and especially where the BBC doesn’t loudly proclaim that “Britishness” is based on nothing more than “values.”

In this “organic nation” of Graham’s imagination, there are reality TV shows, rock stars, fast food, spectator sports, and supermarkets; everything that is criticized about America by European romantic nationalists is found in abundance in the UK. There are whiggers and chavs immersed in a White underclass culture. There are self proclaimed “anti-fa” and card carrying communists and blacks who are citizens.

What’s the difference between the UK and America? In America, we have the First Amendment, so we are not put on trial for “Islamophobia” like Nick Griffin. In America, we have the Second Amendment, so we have the physical means to defend ourselves from the black and brown criminal element. In America, we have a continent instead of a small island, and thus have plenty of space and more time on the clock to change our minds about race.

Take every negative trend in the United States and multiply it and you have George Orwell’s Britain. You have a country where there is more pressure to conform to multiculturalism and political correctness than the United States. You have a country with a lower level of White racial consciousness. You have a country that has been disarmed and where “racism” has been criminalized. You have a country where there is an exodus of Whites in addition to an influx of non-Whites. You have a population with a lower birthrate that is aging faster.

It is only in the imagination of Graham that Britain and France are more “rightwing” than the United States. The vast majority of people in Britain and France believe they are much further to the Left than White Americans and proudly remind us of that all the time. In Britain and France, you have a long tradition of communist and socialist politics. You have social democratic parties that are mainstream and which are not just Left, but hardcore anti-White and anti-Western Left.

Graham ignores the fact that the “soil” of Europe has given birth to everything from liberalism to laissez-faire capitalism to communism to socialism to postmodernism to political correctness to fascism to feminism to Nazism to “anti-racism” and “anti-fascism.” Indeed, we can say that virtually all the poisonous ideas that have led to the suicide of Europe and which have unfortunately spread overseas to North America originated in Europe, and were brought over here by European immigrants.

Maybe in his studies of philosophy he forgot to read Rousseau, Marx and Lenin, Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir. He must have missed the part about the French Revolution, the Napoleonic Wars, and the Soviet Union. Surely, the world communist movement based in Europe had something to do with the spread of the disease known as “anti-racism.”

40

Posted by HW on March 04, 2012, 01:10 PM | #

European romantic nationalists have always lived in a fantasy world. Emma West’s trial for “racism” is coming up this summer:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17073198

Tram race rant accused Emma West pleads not guilty

A woman has pleaded not guilty over an alleged racist rant on a tram in south London, which has been seen online 11 million times.

Emma West, 34, of New Addington, south London, appeared at Croydon Crown Court charged with two counts of racially-aggravated public order offences, one with intent to cause fear.

She was arrested in November after footage, filmed on a Croydon-to-Wimbledon tram, was posted on YouTube.

She will stand trial on 11 June.

The London Olympics will also showcase the “diversity” and “multiculturalism” of the UK and its commitment to “equality”:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkiwVqqnJqs

http://www.london2012.com/about-us/the-people-delivering-the-games/the-london-organising-committee/diversity-and-inclusion-at-locog/strategy.php

The Olympic Games and Paralympic Games are not only a showcase of sporting excellence but also a celebration of different cultures.

We want to stage an inspirational and memorable Games, where everyone is invited, can take part and get involved in the most exciting event in the world.

Diversity was a key reason why London, one of the most multicultural cities in the world, was chosen to host the Games in the bidding process.

41

Posted by jamesUK on March 04, 2012, 01:15 PM | #

@Circassian/Ivan

Circassian theme of Syrias tragedy

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2012/02/16/circassian-theme-of-syria-tragedy.html

 

42

Posted by Dan Dare on March 04, 2012, 01:38 PM | #

Anyone reading Hunter Wallace’s contributions here, and who didn’t know better, would assume that pandering to ethnic rent-seekers and pathological behaviour on the part of racial minorities and other self-styled oppressed groups are unknown in the United States. On the other hand, anyone who lives there in an area undergoing demographic transition will be well aware that is far from being the case, it’s just that the media are more ‘disciplined’ and refrain from ‘irresponsible’ commentary on social matters in which delicate sensibilities might be offended.

Graham is of course entirely correct in maintaining that the United States is well on the way to realising its Manifest Destiny as the first post-western nation. This is an inevitable and entirely rational conclusion to the development cycle of the proposition nation, and especially one in which the concept of the ‘Melting Pot’ has been historically embraced by the great majority of its inhabitants, and continues to be so even today. The trajectory is certain and the kinetic is unretardable, it’s the intentional terminus at the end of the American Way, E pluribus unum, and all that.

As Hunter notes, similar efforts at the construction of the credal nation are also underway in various European nations, all the while under the benevolent gaze of the inventors of the concept and their familiars in Brussels. There is however one critical difference on that side of the Atlantic: it is an elite project exclusively, slavishly taken up by their tribunes within the chattering classes, but one which resonates hardly at all with the masses, and that despite several decades already of social conditioning. The excesses that get reported in media, and the public reaction to them (when it is able to find an outlet for expression) are symptoms of the seething resentment that is bubbling away just below the brittle veneer of civility dictated by the Orwellian regulations to which Hunter has referred.

Which does of course beg the question: why is such regulation necessary in the first place? It isn’t needed in America, is it?

43

Posted by Dan Dare on March 04, 2012, 01:57 PM | #

An interesting vignette of contemporary American society:

Queer Studies position opens up at OSU

In case anyone is unaware, OSU is located in Corvallis, Oregon, perhaps one of the least diverse towns in the country. It is an ex-agricultural college with an international reputation in life sciences.

But now, thankfully, students, parents and alumni will no longer need to be defensive about the “lack of solid queer studies-centered curriculum.”

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 04, 2012, 02:46 PM | #

@Dan

It must be in part that the American polity and society has always been defined by liberalism – to be sure liberalism has mutated and expanded over time - but the roots of extreme value-pluralism and liberally conceived, maximally understood, individual freedom are in the DNA of America from the get-go. This is not true of Europe – our longer history - feudal social formations, ruthlessly enforced religious conformity, non-liberal political ideologies, overt class-conflict, bitter nationalist wars and ethnically defined political movements et al., results in a European political and social imagination which is very different to American sensibilities. The default political modality of American life is always some form of liberalism. It really is a nation of self-understood, self-regarding Robinson Crusoe’s.

One example of the lack of collective thinking - ‘we’ thinking instead of ‘I’ thinking - is trade-unionism. South of the Mason-Dixon line union membership is at a mere 3 per cent of the workforce (13% nationwide). Now the point is not to say unions per se are good or bad - rather that they represent a form of collective ‘we’ type thinking and action - a habit of the mind and heart that can be cultivated and liable to find other forms of expression. Ideas of collective agency are not a major theme of American life - of course they are not absent from the scene but are radically attenuated and disprivileged. Homo americanus is generally not comfortable with ‘we’ type ideas beyond utterly superficial rah rah rah flag waving.

Look it’s not like liberalism is not a very important part of the European scene but unlike America it isn’t the social and political ‘event horizon’ – America is a far more deeply liberal and individualistic social-order than any European nation could ever be. History matters immensely in defining the contours of the collective political and social imagination.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

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Posted by HW on March 04, 2012, 02:54 PM | #

Dan,

That’s an interesting take on American history.

I was under the impression that America was a race based nation that restricted citizenship to Whites in 1790 and retained that racial caste system from 1790 until 1965 when the Immigration Act of 1965 eliminated the final racial barriers to American citizenship.

If memory serves, it was the Swedish economist Gunnar Myrdal who came up with the concept of an “American Creed” in his book “The American Dilemma.” The book was about how America was an ideological nation in theory, but was a raced based nation in practice. I believe the book was published around 1941. Congress didn’t dismantle Jim Crow until 1964 and the Gallup polls show that Americans didn’t accept the idea of an ideological nation until the 1970s.

The soil of Europe though provides us with many examples of proposition nations. The first real proposition nation was the French Republic under the Jacobins that beheaded King Louis XVI, abolished slavery throughout the French Empire in 1794, and made all the blacks citizens of France in the name of the Declaration of the Rights of Man.

I want to say that I remember reading about how Europe was embroiled in warfare for about 25 years by France and its wars to spread this ideology across the European continent. It was a major event that gave us the very notion of a revolutionary Left, destabilized all the monarchies in Europe, and inspired even more exotic forms of leftwing politics like communism, socialism, and anarchism.

The next major proposition nation was the Soviet Union where the world communist movement based in Europe first seized power in Russia. It was the communists who created the ideological form of anti-racism. The term racism had been floating around in radical leftwing circles in Europe before it made its first appearance over here.

Going back to the 1920s, the Communist Party USA was the only political party in America that advocated anti-racism in its political platform. It was composed mostly of Jews and European immigrants who had brought with them the radical labor politics of Europe to America.

The communists were active at that time all across Europe. They briefly took over Hungary, fought along with anarchists in Spain, attempted to seize power in Bavaria, and they were particularly strong in Italy, Germany, and France where their presence was instrumental in the rise of fascism in those countries.

The Soviet Union preached its doctrine of anti-racism and the proposition nation across the world. There were communists who were active in Britain and Ireland many of whom would go on to greater prominence.

But when you really think about it, Europe was ripped apart in the Second World War by all these clashing ideologies, which Europeans themselves had created, and your country played the most important role of all in making the war against Germany a war for liberal democracy and a war against racism, nationalism, and anti-Semitism.

Even before the Second World War, there were non-White minorities in Europe, many of whom had become citizens of various European countries, and who were intermarrying with White Europeans. What European country other than Germany had an anti-miscegenation law?

In the late 1940s and 1950s, Britain and France changed their immigration laws to allow non-whites from the colonies to move to the metropoles. Some of these blacks like Kenyatta in Kenya or Senghor in Senegal - who would become the leaders of their newly independent countries - had lived in Britain and France and married European wives.

In particular, France had a long tradition going back to the French Revolution of allowing non-White representatives to sit in the French parliament. There was nothing new about blacks living in France and marrying French women. Quite a few African-Americans had moved to France to escape American racism.

The moral of the story is that oddly enough it was Europeans who created these ideological forms of belonging and violently spread them across their own continent. They had been doing this long before America got in on the act. Indeed, it was Europeans who brought that kind of shit to America from Wilberforce to Fanny Wright to Franz Boas and Gunnar Myrdal.

Then we have the romantic notion that Europeans really don’t believe this type of nonsense. They don’t really support the Lib Dens or the Labour Party. They are not really anti-ra. There are not really socialists and communists in France or communists in Germany and Spain.

The whole political spectrum is much further to the Left than its American counterpart, but this just an illusion. The people who live in Mississippi are really more liberal than those who live in, say, the Netherlands or Sweden. The truth is that it is more liberal because that is where all this shot in America came from in the first place.

The

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Posted by HW on March 04, 2012, 03:17 PM | #

The primary difference between American individualism and European individualism is that Americans are more likely to collect material items whereas Europeans focus more on lifestyles and experiences.

Which type of individualism is the most damaging? The European romantic nationalist scoffs at the boorish American with his big bass boat and his Z-71 and his McMansion, and especially his Christianity, but the same Europeans who decry American individualism have rejected god and religion in the name of their own opinions, and many of them live with their parents and fail to marry and have children.

So what you have in Europe are countries like Greece, Spain, Italy, and Portugal with extremely low birthrates. You have a population that is less likely to attend church and know their neighbours, more likely to live alone, more likely to have much smaller families, more likely to have fewer children or any at all.

It turns out to be a more extreme form of individualism that rejects the family, the race, the nation, the church, and the community, which are more likely to be replaced by leftist politics, which inflict further damage on the nation.

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Posted by Dan Dare on March 04, 2012, 03:36 PM | #

Hunter has been kind enough to share his perspectives on the immigration disaster that is unfolding in Europe and, in particular, his personal vision for the demographic ‘catastrophe’ that he expects to ensue as a result of the continuation of present trends.

However, he has not so far seen his way clear to giving us the benefit of his views on the corresponding situation in the United States, particularly with regard to the immigration statistics pertaining there. That might be because, like most Americans, he has little idea about what is really going behind the headlines or, perhaps more likely, he feels insulated from its effects in his personal Ruritania. In either case, allow me to enumerate, if not for his benefit then for other interested readers.

During 2010, the last year for which official DHS statistics have been published, the US welcomed 1,042,625 legal permanent residents of which around 88% originated in the third world. DHS figures indicate that over 10 million such new residents have arrived in the last ten years. This rate of influx is unprecedented except for the period before World War I, the high tide of immigration from Southern and Eastern Europe, and a few years in the late 1980s and early 1990s when around a million Soviet Jews were admitted under the auspices of the Jackson-Vanik Amendment.

But so what, is this really such big deal when you consider that the EU admits around two million annually, into a smaller and more crowded continent? Well, yes, as a matter of fact immigration into the US is a hugely important matter, but only when one troubles to look behind the headlines.

One crucial point is that the figures for one million into the US and the two million into the EU are based on very different metrics. The US figure is based on the number of individuals granted lawful permanent residence (aka ‘Green Card’) in any given year, while EU member states use the UN definition of ‘migrant’ which is agreed by international convention: a migrant is a person who is coming or going for a period of twelve months or more. The latter includes not just permanent residents but also temporary workers, students, refugees etc. To arrive at the corresponding figure for the US we have to include these categories as well. Thus, for 2010, the following were admitted:

- The 1.04 million new permanent residents already cited
- Temporary workers (H1-B, TN etc) and their dependants) - 1.68 million less 0.2 million seasonal workers = 1.48 million
- Intra-company transferees (L1) and their dependants: 0.7 million
- Traders and investors (E1, E2) and dependants: 0.4 million
- Other temporary workers: 100,000 approx.
- Students and dependants: 1.5 million

Adding in a further 73,000 refugees and 73,000 ‘Family Equity’ migrants we arrive at a grand total of around 5.4 million immigrants during 2010, based on the internationally-standard definition.

It therefore comes as little surprise that the recent US Census Bureau median projection has the population climbing to 463 million in little over two generations from now. The latest (2010) UN middle-series projection by the UN Population Division lists the USA as one of the six countries which will together contribute over half of global population growth during this century. The others are: India, Nigeria, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Tanzania and Uganda.

America, fuck yeah!

 

 

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Posted by HW on March 04, 2012, 03:47 PM | #

Is there a country that is more deeply liberal than the UK?

There is the Netherlands. I can’t think of another country more liberal than these two. These two countries did more than any other to create and spread liberalism around the world. They have been the vanguard of Western liberalism for centuries.

Britain and the Netherlands pioneered the whole international order based on liberalism. Washington did not inherit that role until the aftermath of the Second World War. Previously, Amsterdam and London had been the world center of financial capitalism and free trade.

New York City was modeled after Amsterdam. It was founded by the Dutch as a commercial entrepot in their world trading system. The American colonies were nothing more than units in the capitalist economy that was being spread around the world by Britain and Holland.

This type of moralizing liberal sanctimonious bullshit about humanitarianism has been coming out of Britain since the days of Wilberforce and the anti-slavery movement. As far back as the 1830s, the British were imposing these silly experiments on the West Indies.

As for this romantic bullshit about feudalism, most Americans lived on the family farm until the twentieth century. Britain and the Netherlands took the plunge into urbanization and industrial capitalism long before that happened in the United States

The truth is the exact opposite of Graham’s fantasy: the British have been living in this urban, commercialized, atomized world longer than Americans have in the United States, and have taken it too extremes still not found in North America.

To hear Graham complain about liberalism is like listening to Italians complain about Roman Catholicism. They were the ones who created this shit and if they are suffering from its deletrious effects they have no one to blame but themselves.

John Locke, Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill, Richard Cobden, David Ricardo and all the rest of them came from his own country.

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 04, 2012, 03:49 PM | #

“We are all much less individual than we would like to think. In the end, we all follow certain rules of functioning. And in a certain way, ‘individualism’ is a fake, something which belongs to a different century, when romantic poetry expressed that sort of thing. Most any kind of artwork is the result of a collective spirit…

Doesn’t the illusion of ‘individuality’ give people hope?

“Individuality is heavily promoted as a difference, if you’re different, you can say you’re not going to follow the rules. Yet you’re going to follow an ideology -  a collective ideology preaching ‘individuality’ as the highest utopian goal.”

Is this not the paradoxical tragedy at the heart of the American ideology?

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Posted by Dan Dare on March 04, 2012, 03:52 PM | #

Once more Hunter demonstrates his deep confusion about the meaning of ‘liberalism’ in the European context, equating it with both universalist egalitarianism and socialism. A typically parochial and Disneyesque interpretation I might add, similar to the prevailing notion that all European castles resemble Neuschwanstein.

We had this same discussion in the recent ‘Churchill’ thread when Hunter put forward the still unsubstantiated claim that Britain was a ‘liberal’ society during the inter-war period.

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 04, 2012, 04:07 PM | #

Yes Mr. Wallace history is ‘bullshit’ - Homo americanus returns to his default anti-intellectualism when pushed hard enough.

@Dan

You haven’t even included all the illegal aliens that are in the USA and still coming - they will not be removed - expect a ‘pragmatic’ Republican-Likud sponsored amnesty fashioned after that ‘conservative’ hero Ronnie Reagan within the next few years. And I know my US visa, if I had wanted it to be, could effectively have been extended almost indefinitely. Most of the third-world graduate students (at the universities I worked at) were married and had their wife drop an ‘anchor baby’.  They will not be going ‘home’. And no they were not ‘high quality’ students - anything but.

Enjoy! I’d hate to be in the position of Italians with only 92% ethnic Italians in the population - 60%-ish Euro and declining fast is such a better position to be in, yes?

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Posted by HW on March 04, 2012, 04:35 PM | #

Dan,

Quite right.

1.) There was no universalist egalitarianism in the French Revolution. The French did not abolish slavery in the French West Indies. The blacks that lived there were not made into French citizens. This could not happen on the magical soil of Europe.

2.) Papa Sonthonax came to Saint-Domingue where he sided with the French creoles living there, not with the black slaves in the mountains led by Touissant Louverture. The French did not agree that the cause of the blacks was their cause because the blacks had embraced the universal principles of their revolution, liberty and equality.

3.) It was certainly not in the name of universalist egalitarianism that Britain suppressed the transatlantic slave trade and abolished slavery in their own colonies in the West Indies.

4.) Philanthropists from Britain like Fanny Wright did not come to the Antebellum South to build utopian multiracial communes and to preach liberalism.

5.) In fact, there was never a Liberal Party in Britain, and liberalism had nothing to do with Richard Cobden and John Stuart Mill.

6.) What’s all this talk about communists in Britain? There was never a communist party or socialist party in the UK!

7.) Winston Churchill never attacked Hitler for being a racist anti-Semite and for subverting liberal democracy.

8.) It was not Britain that forced black majority rule on its own colonists in Rhodesia either.

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Posted by Circassian on March 04, 2012, 04:42 PM | #

Because, believe me Mr Haller, the English have not yet spoken.

That is true, the English have not yet spoken ... and never will. No matter how hard Schlomo Kievsky, Danny Ill, Graham_Luster, Gai Murros, Leon Heller, and uKn_Leo are trying to have English “speak” against Muslims, they never will. Not because they are just and wise, but because they have become pussies. That’s what happens to anyone who befriends the Jew for too long.

As you can see, the Circassians do not look at Russia and the Russians with a jaundiced eye, and are not about to get at their throats. The greater someone’s desire to do this instead of Circassians, but using them as their cat’s paw.

Thank you jamesUK for posting something truthful at last.

Ivan: Ignis vitalis aestimo nobilitatem

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Posted by Circassian on March 04, 2012, 04:53 PM | #

Congratulations to our British mojahedeens with Putin’s victory! This is the first time ever I have cast my vote for someone. This is the beginning of new era in the history of Jew ass kicking. Hail Putin!

Ivan: Ignis vitalis aestimo nobilitatem

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 04, 2012, 05:03 PM | #

Dan you can’t expect too much from the average Homo americanus – after all it’s a nation that loves unrelenting hokum in the form of televangelism/banal religiosity, thinks God intervenes in the outcome of sports events, and has creatures like Ann Coulter and Glenn Beck as ‘public intellectuals’/‘serious commentators’ on public events.

The USA also leads the world in illegal drug consumption

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500368_162-4222322.html

Perhaps the latter fact goes some way to accounting for the other phenomena outlined.

Ivan also seems to enjoy LSD or something similar - guess as an American resident he is slowly going ‘native’.

Ivan remember the old advice - don’t get high on your own supply! After all don’t you need your drugs for the 12 year old ‘whores’ that your type like to ‘befriend’, yes?

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Posted by Wallace > Lister on March 04, 2012, 05:17 PM | #

Yes Mr. Wallace history is ‘bullshit’ - Homo americanus returns to his default anti-intellectualism when pushed hard enough.

In this thread he has demonstrated a much better grasp of history than you or Dare.  You didn’t even bother to address his arguments, which were quite detailed.  Meanwhile you write loads of tedious crap and expect to be taken seriously when you offer no evidence to back it up (as HW has done).

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 04, 2012, 05:18 PM | #

The ‘massively impressive’ Ann Coulter on the BBC Newsnight shhow with Jeremy Paxman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI2RbK3g7X8

Apparently Darwinian natural selection is a ‘liberal creation myth’.

How can Europeans do without the brilliant insights of such analytically powerful American ‘public intellectuals’?

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Posted by Dan Dare on March 04, 2012, 05:22 PM | #

HW @52

Your all-too predictable laundry list of Europhobic soundbites completely fails to disguise the fact that the last time we had this particular joust you retired early from the field.

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Posted by everybody that believes in evolution is a genius on March 04, 2012, 06:52 PM | #

Apparently Darwinian natural selection is a ‘liberal creation myth’.

Yeah… It never serves as such…

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Posted by Lurker on March 04, 2012, 06:56 PM | #

I note that equivalent thread on this post on Kievsky’s own site, is far more constructive than the one here.

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Posted by Circassian's mom on March 04, 2012, 07:44 PM | #

Has anyone seen my boy?.  It’s way past his bedtime and he needs to take his tablets.

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Posted by Lew on March 04, 2012, 09:02 PM | #

The writings of European nationalists on America have been stale, moribund and necrotic for years.

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Posted by Lew on March 04, 2012, 09:04 PM | #

I would add that Hunter Wallace has beaten his interlocutors like a drum in this thread.

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Posted by Guessedworker on March 05, 2012, 04:48 AM | #

Lew,

I have not bothered to enter this debate because Hunter’s notions about Europe (“Britain has always been more liberal than the United States”) are too absurd to merit a response.  No serious intellectual would argue that America is other than a propositional state.  Neither would they deny that the European nations are being moved towards that model, as the Jew Wesley Clark famously stated in 1999 (“There is no place in modern Europe for ethnically pure states. That’s a 19th century idea and we are trying to transition into the 21st century, and we are going to do it with multi-ethnic states.”)

American and European nationalists face different scales of the same problem.  We Europeans have to ask our people to remember their blood.  The Americans must ask theirs to discover it.  I might add that without that discovery, American bombs and bullets might well render a European remembering impossible to complete.

For racial Europe throughout the West, American Europeans must be broken away from the propositional idea.

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 05, 2012, 07:37 AM | #

OK I’m getting fairly exasperated with a lot of the non-thought that goes on here.

Now of course very broadly inclusive-fitness theory etc., can heuristically inform one’s world-view but I don’t need it to specifically explain my hierarchy of concern - myself, my immediate family, my region/nation, my tribe (Europeans) then rapidly declining concern for the Chinese, Africans etc., - note not hate for them - simply indifference - they cannot be of the same concern to me as the welfare and well-being of my own - because everyone is in reality a operates as some sort of moral particularist. Love and engaged genuine concern for others (not simply moral posturing a la the telescopic philanthropy of Mrs Jellyby) cannot be universalised - that’s not the way human nature is.

Again I don’t need a half-truth from biology (used for political effect) to say why multicultural societies don’t work - we have the sociological and historical evidence. And again I don’t need the moral turpitude of the politics of a superiority-inferiority axis - no simply one of a politics of differentiation - Europeans have our place in the world, our ways of being - it matters little if the Japanese are objectively superior or not, I don’t want to live in or under their form of life - I want the European way to be my way of life - guess what that probably requires Europeans to be around for a start and demographically in the vast majority in their own homelands in order to have the politico-cultural power to maintain those ways of being. Irrespective of our ‘objective’ ranking in human terms I want a European way of being because it’s mine - its my way of being in the world. That’s more than enough justification for me.

Is that really that hard to grasp? - one does not need to be a ‘racist’ in the sense of claiming a whole range of negative qualities to other manifestations of intra-human variation to be an ethno-communitarian. Simply a realist with regard to how people in identifiably different groups (of whatever basis) will behave towards each other within the same social space - in-group/out-group distinctions – yes sometimes grounded in biology of intra-human variation as such (but not always – see Northern Ireland), but expressed culturally, religiously, politically etc., that cannot be abolished by fiat or liberal willpower. Ignore them at our peril – Northern Ireland, the partition of India, break up of Yugoslavia – it’s a more general phenomena human phenomenon than mere racial or ethnic divisions.

As the in-group/out-group dynamic has often occurred with awful consequences within broad racial or ethnic groups - read the history of Europe - wars of religion over which version of the Voodoo is true - Swift in ‘Gulliver’s Travels’ mocks this in the satirical conflict in the book, such as in the two religious sects of Lilliputians are divided between those who prefer cracking open their soft-boiled eggs from the little end, and those who prefer the big end…but unfortunately such human behaviour is always likely to be with us in some form. We will always have to manage our own stupidity - and hyper-liberalism and radical multiculturalism are profoundly stupid ideas for how a social-order can work successfully - because of our complex biological, psychological, cultural and social natures.

I could be wrong and perhaps we can all unproblematically become coffee-coloured people and rub alone with each other in some cultural and social ‘flatland’ of mindless consumerism - but I’d think that’s unlikely.

The maximally homogeneous society – including in ethnic and linguistic terms is the basis for the good society – but no mass society can abolish variation, stratification, differentiation, conflict between individuals and between different social groups within society and a healthy model of individuation and individuality in some utopian fantasy of ‘ontological fusion’ between the parts and the whole – rather the good society must manage all of that irreducible variation and resultant political-social-economic cleavages wisely. A sustainable relationship between the parts and the whole is required - ultra-individualism under all forms of hyper-liberal thought (politically, economically, culturally) is not that nor is the idiocy of hyper-collectivism under fascism or communism that model.

A middle neo-Aristotelian way - the radical center - might just be the correct area to focus upon. The idea of an intra-societal ‘moral economy’ both within and between generations…I don’t know I feel like I must unwittingly be typing in Chinese or something.

It does become deflationary and exhaustive to repeat oneself again and again…

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Posted by Leon Haller on March 05, 2012, 07:47 AM | #

GW@64

American and European nationalists face different scales of the same problem.  We Europeans have to ask our people to remember their blood.  The Americans must ask theirs to discover it.  I might add that without that discovery, American bombs and bullets might well render a European remembering impossible to complete.

That is an excellent distillation of the central problem. But it is only accurate wrt the contemporary scene. The operative word, which reveals a rather shallow understanding of American history (and which in turn might reflect too much reading in liberal American historiography - which must never be confused with the actual history), is “discover”. I cannot accept that. The better term might be “re-discover”.

This confusion is also evident here:

No serious intellectual would argue that America is other than a propositional state

.

The truth is precisely the opposite. No one with any depth of knowledge in American history would argue for this “propositional” idea. The only truly propositional state in history was the USSR (and its satellites around the globe). At most, one could make some argument for the propositional nature of Puritan New England - though that itself would be eminently debatable, and the proposition in question certainly wasn’t liberalism (even of the Jeffersonian variety, let alone of today’s multiculturalist, secular humanist and socialist Democrats)!!

In what sense were the Founders “propositionalists”, and what was that alleged “proposition”? While the Founders were a racially (and largely even ethnically) homogeneous lot, they were also highly ideologically variegated (at least in their own estimation; relative to today’s ideological diversity, they were extreme rightists to a man). Nevertheless, virtually all of them (the sole exception being non-Founder scribbler and proto-Labour leftist English immigrant blabbermouth Thomas Paine) saw themselves as merely asserting the (ancient, traditional, unwritten) rights of Englishmen. When the Framers did create the Constitution, they did not think they were creating something new under the sun (as the filthy French Jacobins did); they did not, furthermore, perceive themselves to be revolutionaries at all. They saw themselves as “restorationists” and defenders of the ancient common law, which they felt (or at least said they did - who can ever catalogue all the innumerable individual motives combining to create great historical events?) had been breached by the tax and regulatory activities of the British Parliament. As Russell Kirk, and indeed, Burke before him, argued (nay, understood), ours was a profoundly conservative revolution (or, really, a reaction). 

The whole “proposition” shibboleth goes back to Dishonest Abe’s brilliantly mendacious Gettysburg Address, which I copy herewithin toto:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Epic rhetoric, but almost completely false as a matter of historical fact. There is little if nothing in the Founding Era’s rhetoric to substantiate Lincoln’s claim about America being dedicated to equality. Is there anything to that effect in the Constitution? How about state constitutions? How about in the writings of the specific men authorized to ratify that Constitution? You will find nothing (what you will find is the infamous “3/5” clause, as well as lots of references to “Englishmen” and “their liberties”, along with the occasional disparagement of immigrants). Lincoln was simply indulging in a oratorical ‘flight of fancy’.

In very simplified essence, the ethnocultural “story of America” is:

1. an English colony

2. a gradual sense of estrangement from England

3. the birth of a “new man”, the American, who however, was universally understood to be white, if not specifically Anglo-Saxon

4. mass European immigration occurring in intermittent waves throughout the 18th and esp 19th centuries - though throughout the whole period “American” was reserved for persons of British ancestry whose families had been resident since the Revolution

5. New England unitarianism and its bastard stepchild abolitionism, and later “Civil War” (really, a war between two nations, the North, which had come to see itself increasingly in ideological terms, as well as become increasingly liberal in the contemporary sense, and the (white) South, which was, and still is, a real ethnonation, as rightist - and racial nationalist - as any white nation on earth, except, possibly, the Boervolk - and that’s debatable)

6. post-Civil War, huge numbers of sub-racially distinct (non-racially-Nordic) European immigrants, always opposed by the majority of the native-born, poured into the country, threatening and eventually undoing the former dominance of the Anglo Old Stock; very significant was the mass immigration of Jewry in this period, which came to be called the “Melting Pot” era (by a Jew, of course)

7. nativist reaction in the 20s, which essentially ended immigration until the 60s; but also the New/Jew Deal, rise of FDR/modern liberalism to ideological and political hegemony, esp following victory (by non-liberal generals) in WW2

8. postwar (real, gradual, if imperfect) assimilation of white, non-Nordic immigrants to 1950s Middle American cultural mainstream (while subtly changing that mainstream, esp viz the Jews)

9. The Sixties: explosion of Jewish-led leftist agitation, “Civil Rights” movement for coercive black integration, War on Poverty (quantum leap in Big Government), 1965 change of immigration laws away from West European-favoritist national origins quotas), Sexual Revolution

10. Modern hysteria re “racism” and concurrent non-racial (anti-white) definitions of “Americanness” - anyone can be “a good American”, “all races have helped build America”, “America as nation defined by an ideological proposition” (ie, leftist propagandists, at first almost exclusively Jewish, reading or imputing their own treasonous views back onto the past).

The bottom line is that GW, Lister and maybe Dan Dare are essentially taking the American liberals at their own face value, acting as though what a bunch of contemporary, ahistorical, multiculturalist propagandists say about the essential America, and how Americans in the past saw themselves and their country, is actually applicable to our past. It isn’t. But perhaps we can say it is becoming so, unfortunately.

The truth is that America started out, in anthropological fact as well as psychological self-understanding, as an offshoot of the English ethnonation, gradually evolved into a genuine “racial nation”, and then had a new, anti-racist, multiculturalist understanding of “who is an American?” imposed on it by treasonous elites in top-down fashion, while those same elites also functionally imposed racial diversification in bottom-up fashion. The result is an increasingly nonwhite country where whites are taught (or forced) to adhere to the belief that America is a uniquely non-ethnic/racial nation - something their ancestors would have found incomprehensible and risible. 

(and PS - I;m still waiting for an answer to my question above re why GW/GL seem to think that one cannot argue against coercive racial diversification from within the liberal, at least “right-liberal”, tradition. I argue the opposite.)

 

67

Posted by Leon Haller on March 05, 2012, 08:32 AM | #

Lister@65

A generally wise comment, with which I have little disagreement, except for this:

Again I don’t need a half-truth from biology (used for political effect) to say why multicultural societies don’t work - we have the sociological and historical evidence. And again I don’t need the moral turpitude of the politics of a superiority-inferiority axis - no simply one of a politics of differentiation - Europeans have our place in the world, our ways of being - it matters little if the Japanese are objectively superior or not, I don’t want to live in or under their form of life - I want the European way to be my way of life - guess what that probably requires Europeans to be around for a start and demographically in the vast majority in their own homelands in order to have the politico-cultural power to maintain those ways of being. Irrespective of our ‘objective’ ranking in human terms I want a European way of being because it’s mine - its my way of being in the world. That’s more than enough justification for me

This is the way I argued for decades. “I’m not racist. I don’t hate others. I simply prefer my own kind and the way of living we autochthonously generate, and recognize that such cannot be preserved where we are not in the majority (this would apply to any people, obviously), and this because inter-group differences are real, are often genetic, and cannot merely be indoctrinated (let alone legislated) away.” I was a race-realist because I was honest, and a racialist because it seemed perfectly morally allowable for me to resist immorality (such as, eg, affirmative racism directed against my kind), or even just racial conquest by foreign migrants treasonously allowed (by my own rulers) to colonize my homeland.

Sadly, this formerly might have been “more than enough justification for me”, but it is so no longer. Why should be obvious. The heterogeneity of human existence, to which you properly allude above, involves us in endlessly complex webs of moral obligations, which operate in a multi-relational way. Is it obvious that just because something is “yours”, as a matter of fact or history, you therefore have a right to it in perpetuity? Why should your preference for preserving the organic way of life characteristic of your historic ethnoculture have priority over that of someone who wishes to employ locally persons of foreign nationality, esp when those persons are poorer than you and really could use the work (it is hardly implausible to suggest that, without more, the claim of the poor migrant to work possesses moral precedence over that of the comparatively prosperous nativist who merely finds the migrant’s presence distasteful)? Or what about the right of the native-born diversity-monger, who enjoys dining in exotic restaurants and/or copulating with nonwhites, and thus favors a generous immigration policy?

But the real inadequacy of your position is revealed when considering what might be called “the ex post facto” problem, namely, does not the moral ground shift considerably when the question is no longer merely the prevention of alien colonization, but now its reversal? For the English way of life, as it had evolved over millennia of ethnonational existence, to survive, biologically unassimilable aliens must be re- or expatriated. Is that justifiable? One could easily argue (and it certainly would be so argued, if, by some miracle, hardline nationalists actually formed a government), that, while it might have been wiser never to have allowed the aliens to colonize Britain in the first place, the hardships that might ensue from their forcible removal would, in some moral calculus, outweigh the mere return to English ethnic normalcy. What would you say - I have a right to have my former way of life - one now essentially defined merely as sans nonwhites - returned to me?

I don’t think that is remotely morally persuasive. “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander” arguments are fine, but only to a point. Beyond that, which is where we all are today, there must be affirmative arguments justifying the hard measures white men will have to take if our race and therefore civilization are to endure.

Gaining the deep intellectual background in theology and philosophy I believe necessary to accomplishing this task is why I’m in my present course of study.   

(PS - If you want to read a perfectly coherent argument against diversitarian immigration from within the (classical) liberal tradition, see Conway, In Defence of the Realm The notion that all that is of value in the great libertarian tradition must be discarded in order to protect the white race is ludicrous. It has nowhere been demonstrated here that love of liberty or capitalism must necessarily jeopardize racial survival.)

68

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 05, 2012, 08:32 AM | #

Just to sum up - there are limits to heterogeneity within any coherent and sustainable social order – along any number of possible sources of variation – lifestyles, values, cultural norms, language, ethnic and religious diversity, economic stratification etc.

Unbounded, expansive and maximally understood liberalism – that is liberalism (in all of its forms right and left facing) as foundational to a social order is really the politics of maximal heterogeneity and the radical fungibility of individuals, values etc., - it seems to me that it is slowly in the process of a kind of auto-destructive syndrome in that the more we get ‘believe’ in liberalism, individualism, ‘freedom’ as unfettered will the more we hollow out and destroy the communal basis that is genuinely foundation to any healthy and sustainable social order.

We cannot be maximally collective in order to be maximally individualistic under the guise of liberal theory– it doesn’t work -its not self-sustaining over the long-term as a social model. Individuality is heavily promoted as a difference – the universal abstract that is the only salient factor in human life - if you’re different, you can say you’re not going to follow the rules. Yet you’re going to follow an ideology — an ideology preaching a false picture of individuality as the highest utopian goal.

But in the longer term it will create a negative utopia – one in which we are all ‘free’ to hang separately for the folly of not knowing when it is right to stand together. I’m sorry on the balance of probabilities I don’t see anything other than the ‘hang individually’ option being on the horizon in US politics or culture. Chris Hedges, for all his faults, is onto something in his books on the USA like “Death of the Liberal Class” and “The Empire of Illusion”  his point is that they who would profit ideologically, financially etc., from the undermining of the common good and in their wake released all sorts of physical, social and cultural toxic ‘externalities’ into the societal ecosystem have won in America - to an extent unseen anywhere else in the world - and that ordinary Americans have lost. Now maybe he is wrong and the game isn’t over – but how much would you bet on something like his broad analysis being wrong?

One must think of the liberal order in historical terms to grasp the why and how of it trajectory and mutations over time. It’s dumb beyond belief to think its all the fault of the ‘Frankfurt school’ – the issues are more profound. Because the liberal idea of ‘freedom’ is so content free it structurally expands over time to become ever more bizarre and unsustainable – I’ll give you an example – in the UK in recent years there was guy that wanted his healthy legs amputated because well he just did – and some idiot surgeon was going to do it until other responsible people prevented it. Now the justification for going ahead was couched all that liberal hogwash about the harm principle, human rights, ownership of his body etc., – but no man is an island and morally responsible people are on occasion their brother’s keeper.

Liberalism is so plastic and dangerous in our obviously Faustian bargain with it because its Mephistophelian like whispers of radical autonomy and unfettered will feeds into our fantasies and delusions that life can be just any old way we want it to be. Unbounded and unconstrained liberalism is one of those appetites that is amplified by the feeding of it not satiated.

Am I wrong? Why is this seemingly so difficult to grasp?

69

Posted by passerby on March 05, 2012, 08:44 AM | #

HW has correctly identified the origins of individualism / liberalism in the urban mercantile civilization of Britain.

How is it possible to doubt this? Easy: by adjusting one’s focus. Graham Lister and Guessedworker adjust their focus to racial continuity in their nations, allowing them to totally ignore how long ago the English “forgot” their blood and have been living in deracinated urban squalor ever since.

Then just wave one’s hand and repeat the phrase “proposition nation”, and you have a species of argument that cannot really be countered. The American Founders wrote documents and read the philosophes: surely America is a ‘proposition’ more than a nation of like-blooded folk, and that’s why it is weak.

I may be wrong, but didn’t some feudalist document, ending in the word Libertatum, have considerable importance in medieval English history?

Constitutional Law is proposition-nation.

70

Posted by daniel on March 05, 2012, 09:22 AM | #

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 03, 2012, 06:27 PM | #

Wallace why don’t you stick to proclaiming how bogus all rights talk is,

I also have to apologize for some of my own ‘rights babble’...but it was done so to speak, as a matter of expedience.

...just using the word as a way to make a point without baroque tangential explanations..

although, yes, “rights” is not the word

71

Posted by daniel on March 05, 2012, 09:46 AM | #

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 03, 2012, 06:27 PM | #

Personally I’d much rather have 63% ethnic Europeans as a demographic starting point than say those silly Italians with 92% ethnic Italians – where on Earth can I sign up for the blessing of America? The USA might be in the process of rapidly becoming a total shit-hole along the lines of a very nasty Brazilian-style society, but golly gee you’re an American and at least you’re free! Europeans be warned – we must copy the USA in all regards - anything else is suicide!

This is a false either/or and an instructive, false either/or

It maybe a reasonalbe hypothesis that native Europeans have evolved to some extent as a systemic, symbiotic whole.

Those “silly” Italians perfroming a natural buffering, among other functions, against Africans.

And by the way, those not so silly Germans pooh-poohing Negroes (because they have not interfaced them) sometimes overly focusing on Jews . ...villifying other Whites… Poles* of course..they should be eliminated because their women are not as fat as the Germans….

Whereas Black women are ok…non threateningly ugly.

Sorry, couldn’t resist a little barb there…

I like all Europeans (including Germans smile...

I just don’t wnat Europeans to fight European inasmuch as it is possible.

In America…The reduced representation of souht and eastern Europeans, has perhaps produced an awkward interface between Irish/Germanics and Blacks. It may provide one explanation for a lack of balance and systemic maintenance in America.

The age old emnity between English, Germans and other continental Europeans.


America is 63 % European and dropping…


I have known English who look upon Italians as if they are the lowest - could not understand my being indignant seeing a beautiful dark haired girl on TV with a negro (TV at a restaurant). He proclaimed, ‘she’s a guinea!” So what? “She was not White”.. in point of fact, I don’t know if the woman was Italian..but she was beautiful, her skin was White, her hair not kinky, her eyes not Asian…

This same English guy cannot understand why I would dislike Blacks, discriminate against them, look down on mudsharks - his step sister is married to a “half caste”


P.S., there are silly Italians, bad ones too - but it seems to me the more important distinction is on the other side of the mediterranean. I don’t favor amalgamating the European peoples. But it would be better to look upon ourselves as a team.

One of my professors once charged empiricism by analogy with being like a focus on the left tackle (in American football), and drawing theories from its procedures rather than capturing a heuristic of the systemic pattern of coordinated parts (the European nations/peoples, by analogy).


*I am against the inundation of Poles in the U.K.

72

Posted by Lurker on March 05, 2012, 10:17 AM | #

I don’t favor amalgamating the European peoples. But it would be better to look upon ourselves as a team. - Daniel

Seems an entirely reasonable view. Having accepted that can we then move on in a constructive direction.

73

Posted by daniel on March 05, 2012, 10:33 AM | #

Posted by Lurker on March 05, 2012, 10:17 AM | #

  I don’t favor amalgamating the European peoples. But it would be better to look upon ourselves as a team. - Daniel

Seems an entirely reasonable view. Having accepted that can we then move on in a constructive direction.


Thank you,

Please lets..

74

Posted by Dan Dare on March 05, 2012, 11:58 AM | #

@Leon.

Methinks thou protesteth overmuch.

No one is claiming that the United States has always been a propositional nation, rather that it is one today, that it has been one for a considerable period of time and that it has a propensity to wish to fashion other nations in its own image.

75

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 05, 2012, 11:58 AM | #

Bailero - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGhrhUHTsvw

76

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 05, 2012, 12:57 PM | #

Relevant to topic of thread links, a bit J-Lizardy but nonetheless. This guy talking about modern day US liberal diversity and its ideological sources -  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiwRZZqK3Ns  and the same hairy dude discussing US education.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iakg6b5sOzw

77

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 05, 2012, 01:36 PM | #

The end result of western liberal diversity and education.  http://i.imgur.com/ePW5i.png

78

Posted by Desmond Jones on March 05, 2012, 03:04 PM | #

The question of whether liberalism and the propositional state are equivalent has not been answered.  Does the will to negative liberty require propositionalism as a foundational support?

79

Posted by Guessedworker on March 05, 2012, 03:34 PM | #

Desmond,

A state in which all are individuals seeking their own breaking of the bounds cannot be bounded by blood.  It must be an association of “free” men.

Does that answer your question?

80

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 05, 2012, 04:16 PM | #

[Thanks GW]-This one’s for you.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_hOR50u7ek&feature=relmfu

81

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 05, 2012, 05:04 PM | #

Is it a youtube night on MR?

Och let’s have decent music

“Sunshine On Leith”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmELS03_4So

Why not join the “Mull Historical Society”?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiPnSZfpdsI

Camera Obscura’s lovely version of “Super Trouper”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD3fvoe74pE

Belle & Sebastian say “Take Your Carriage Clock and Shove It”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqQhYOmbkxA

Finally perhaps leaving some “Flowers in the Window” is the most important thing we can do in this life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsMu1L9x_Qc

Sorry very much off topic - ignore and carry on.

smile

82

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 05, 2012, 05:19 PM | #

Oh. My. Days. Indepence for Scotland. NOW. Something a bit more bangin’ G_L, you posted ‘...whose army’ so i’m assuming you might be a fan. MR relevance - look at that gloriously white crowd. We will never surrender.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oMtJaADvgA  smile

83

Posted by Desmond Jones on March 05, 2012, 07:57 PM | #

A state in which all are individuals seeking their own breaking of the bounds cannot be bounded by blood.

Such a “free” association cannot exist if it is not homogeneous, as is evident in the modern world.

84

Posted by Leon Haller on March 05, 2012, 08:50 PM | #

My comment @66 deserves more than a single nod (from Dan Dare). If foreigners are going to be “talkin shiite” about America, then they need to demonstrate the inadequacy of my arguments (and Hunter’s, too, among others).

I really think many of you have as little knowledge of America and its history as we could perhaps with justice be accused of having of your country or countries.

I’m also still waiting to be instructed as to why even the embrace of classical liberalism (which, again for the record, I reject) must necessarily lead to the embrace of the Cult of Diversity. Was the defining classical liberal Thomas Jefferson, who professed both the “rights of man” and the virtues of ultra-minimal government, while simultaneously rejecting the notion of black-white racial integration, and even refusing to manumit his own slaves, simply philosophically incoherent, in your view? Is it theoretically impossible, for example, to argue for radical individualism amongst whites, but race realism in terms of whites’ interactions with nonwhites?

Let’s see what you got. 

 

 

85

Posted by Captainchaos on March 05, 2012, 11:25 PM | #

Constitutional Law is proposition-nation.

Yawn.

A constitution could include the proposition that none but those of a designated race could enjoy citizenship and the rights and protection of the law.

P.S. Uh sure does love him some sockpuppet.  LOL

86

Posted by Captainchaos on March 05, 2012, 11:40 PM | #

American bombs and bullets might well render a European remembering impossible to complete.

But…but…I thought you English were going to “militarise” in that instance.  Assuming you do, and as a last resort, you should consider nuking Jew York, Washington, D.C. and Tel Aviv with some Tridents fired from your submarines.  I mean, if for no other reason than to prove for good and all that the English actually have some balls.

87

Posted by Captainchaos on March 06, 2012, 12:02 AM | #

It must be an association of “free” men.

You mean to say you disapprove of Englishmen associating freely?  Shocking!

88

Posted by Captainchaos on March 06, 2012, 12:05 AM | #

the defining classical liberal Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson liked to fuck niggers, which should come as no surprise to us.  He was, after all, an Anglo-Saxonist.  LOL

89

Posted by Captainchaos on March 06, 2012, 12:24 AM | #

Why has the latest edition of R-news been taken down?  I thought the totalitarian censorship of free discourse was as deeply offensive to the ever morally upright Englishman as jackboot clad Krauts.  Somewhere, Voltaire weeps.

90

Posted by Captainchaos on March 06, 2012, 12:47 AM | #

LOL

In an effort to be “fair and balanced” and all that good stuff, I’ll say that just because Dr. Lisper is a pretentious shithead who doesn’t know fuck-all about his purported academic specialty this doesn’t necessarily mean he didn’t receive a “PhD” from some shoddy diploma mill no doubt located in his nearest strip mall.

Perhaps this will be of future assistance to him:

http://www.arndt-bruenner.de/mathe/scripts/engl_eigenwert.htm

91

Posted by J Richards on March 06, 2012, 02:14 AM | #

Captainchaos @89, 90

This website is a lost cause as the censorship is one-sided and it’s painfully obvious which side it is.  My latest R-news post was about a table of eigenvalues pertaining to an analysis of political ideology… it would’ve exposed the blight, Dr. (lack)Luster, as he’d have no clue how to interpret the table notwithstanding his “mastery” of eigenvectors and eigenvalues. 

Whereas you’ve helped Lisper by directing him to an online calculator, it only goes up to a 9 X 9 matrix of random values for Lisper to play with.  I gave him data on 28 X 28 non-random matrices, which he didn’t have to calculate, just interpret. 

In any case, you’d have to teach him how to use the calculator, too.  Have some considerations for the man’s abilities as he couldn’t handle the data depicting distribution and measures of central tendency of specific political attitudes previously.  How do you expect him to handle matrices and interpret eigenvalues?

This Lisper pretentious boor thinks that on the internet he can get away with claiming to have qualifications that he clearly doesn’t.

The plan was to also interpret the data and show how bogus Lisper’s arguments on political ideology are when real world data are analyzed.  This will have to wait to be posted elsewhere.

92

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 06, 2012, 06:36 AM | #

A Chris Hedges quote - “Brace Yourself! The American Empire Is Over & The Descent Is Going To Be Horrifying!”

Anyone disagree - if so on what basis?

captcha = foreign66

93

Posted by Leon Haller on March 06, 2012, 06:46 AM | #

What post was removed, and by whom?

I have no idea what eigenvalues etc are.  I gladly ended my math career with the one year of calculus recommended for economics majors.

Dr. Lister is a geneticist. I’m sure his math ability must be rather considerable (though is mastery of these eigenvalues necessary to being a geneticist?).

That said, these guys are “calling you out”, Dr. L.; perhaps this would be a good time for you to swat them away?

94

Posted by Guessedworker on March 06, 2012, 06:54 AM | #

JR,

The proper place for your post was in the comment thread.  It is inappropriate to use the blog as a weapon against a particular commenter.  I would not tolerate another contributor putting up a piece attacking you.

First rule of jousting: combat with the same weapons.

95

Posted by Guessedworker on March 06, 2012, 07:05 AM | #

Desmond,

Such a “free” association cannot exist if it is not homogeneous, as is evident in the modern world.

Yes, it becomes coercive at the point where Nature is the bound to be broken, as evinced by the appearance right there of anti-racism, anti-fascism, Holocaustianity, hate speech law, equality laws, etc.

I am not claiming that the liberal utopia does or can exist in fact, only that America, certainly post-1965, is an experiment in same.

Leon,

The reason “discover” is the right word, rather than “re-discover”, is because the pan-European level at which identification is required in America has never obtained in the past.

96

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 06, 2012, 08:31 AM | #

Times of open conflict between proponents of different social orders are, of course, historically exceptional. The keenest observers of 19th-century politics -Tocqueville, Heine, Donoso, Marx, Burkhardt, Nietzsche among them all underscored the novelty of a society in the throes of a chronic, publicly staged legitimation crisis. In 1929, Carl Schmitt captured the culmination of this historical experience in an epigram: “We, in central Europe, live sous l’oeil des Russes.”

But is not the age of super-modernity and hyper-liberalism the age of America? – a régime that fully embodies a foundationally liberal historical and social project, that transforms the world into a state of ‘spaceless universalism’ – maximally conceived individual freedom -‘unencumbered self-hood’ exercised across the full spectrum of human activity – in markets and consumption, in lifestyle, morality and politics? To adapt Schmitt who could deny that we in Europe, indeed the wider world, now live sous l’oeil des Américains? Truly the age of Homo americanus is now. Can it be claimed that in so far as one opposes this ideological régime in its ‘full spectrum dominance’ one is acting, however obscurely, in defence of Homo europa?

America is the social and political project in individualistic liberty par excellence.

Thankfully not everyone is quite under its magic spell:

“The ‘a-political’ liberal…wishes to enjoy all the fruits of politics without paying the price or noticing the pain. He likes to honour the fruit but not the tree…He may treat certain things as ‘natural rights’ – thus by definition outside politics…and then preserve them from further contact with politics…thus narrowing the scope of politics drastically and unrealistically…The liberal, then has been fertile in devices for putting politics at one side…‘Individualism’ becomes not just a false description of political behaviour, but a dogma – a completely illicit inference from the empirical fact that each human being is unique…Individualism is not by itself a political doctrine. A man is a man because he is not something else. His self-identity is part of the human condition. Politics does not give him this, so cannot take it away. Politics must respect individuality, rather than try to dissolve it away, as the ideologist attempts; but no particular style of politics follows from the great and simply fact of self-identity…The differing interests which create politics, however, are group interests within a known area which cannot be treated as a total moral and social unity. This many liberals have never faced. For obviously the interests of a group is far more rough and ready thing than the niceness and preciseness with which some people, so they tell us, can read the book of their own conscience. The liberal, as we said, likes the smooth fruits without wishing to care for the gnarled tree.”

Bernard Crick from “In Defence of Politics”

97

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 06, 2012, 08:52 AM | #

@GW – much ‘food for thought’ I think in these interesting titles.

“Philosophy in the Flesh: The Embodied Mind and Its Challenge to Western Thought”

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0465056741/

“The Enemy: An Intellectual Portrait of Carl Schmitt”

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Enemy-Intellectual-Portrait-Carl-Schmitt/dp/185984359X/

“Law as Politics: Carl Schmitt’s Critique of Liberalism”

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Law-Politics-Schmitts-Critique-Liberalism/dp/0822322447/

I know it’s not quite the same outlook as seeing the ‘Frankfurt School’ as the pivotal force in world-history but as ‘controlled opposition’ what else can I do but obfuscate like this?

98

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 06, 2012, 09:41 AM | #

One of Schmitt’s key ideas is that liberalism very successfully conceals its politics, which is the politics of getting rid of all politics – a profoundly anti-political ideology. Liberalism’s stance ‘above’ politics – its putative neutrality - is far from being neutral between differing concepts of the good, would undermine all those in conflict with it, thus bringing about its own type of homogeneity – a narrow homogeneity in the name of ‘individualism’ – a social-order devoted to maximal heterogeneity along every social, cultural and economic vector in the name of individualistic liberty. A ‘society’ of nothing more than market-orientated egotistical and hedonistic humans beings understood atomistically. Liberalism is driven in part by a fear that to stake a particular claim to truth is only to provoke profound conflict – so the basis of a socio-political order must be constrained by the abstract universal of the liberal model of the individual as the grounding of all social reality – thus its ‘flat’ ontology of the social-order – the paradox of an extremely narrow set of foundational premises used to precipitated a form of life conceptualised in maximally enacted individualistic heterogeneity (or diversity) – the collapsing of any notion of collective agency or interests as being ‘unreasonable’ by liberalism own standards – which of course they are if one is a serious and semi-coherent liberal. Semi-coherence is about the best liberal theory can manage. It is not wholly to be dismissed but it takes half-truths for the whole truth of the human subject and our collective life together. A correction is badly needed.

And no middle-Americans Schmitt was not writing about the 1960s or Bill Clinton - amazing as liberalism didn’t exist until then did it? Perhaps the toxins in the system had been building up for some time and simply waiting to be precipitated thus resulting in our present phase of hyper-liberalism - no wait that’s my ‘inner-Jew’ speaking again!

But was Schmitt (the anti-liberal to beat all anti-liberals) perhaps also ‘controlled opposition’ in his critique of liberalism and the American way? He was after all quite the philo-semite, yes?

99

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 06, 2012, 10:13 AM | #

Is it unfair to suggest that Israel is a consistently criminal nation, founded upon brutal terrorism and still is very adept at the art, and that the Palestinians are Hitler’s last victims? I must be ‘controlled opposition’, yes? Unlike all those millions of clear thinking and analytically sharp Christian Zionists in America.

Is Mr. Richards a Christian Zionist I wonder? After all don’t they believe the following…that the Lord Jesus will come in person to introduce the millennial age, when Israel shall be restored to their own land, and the Earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord; and that this personal and pre-millennial advent is the blessed hope set before us in the Gospel for which we should be constantly looking. (Luke 12:35-40; 17:26-30; 18:8 Acts 15:14-17; 2 Thess. 2:3-8; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; Titus 1:11-15).

Furthermore, that the then subsequent destruction of Israel and the J-lizards is the dénouement of history as such – the final eschatological drama before paradise awaits. Really isn’t this an even more risible and pathetically childish version of the Western Voodoo cult?

Still I believe Mr. Richards to be a ‘committed’ (perhaps committable?) Christian – is he a religious Zionist – a reader of the “Left Behind” novels? I’d love to know his theological views on Israel, the J-lizards and their place in God’s schemes.

100

Posted by daniel on March 06, 2012, 10:49 AM | #

Posted by Desmond Jones on March 05, 2012, 03:04 PM | #

The question of whether liberalism and the propositional state are equivalent has not been answered.  Does the will to negative liberty require propositionalism as a foundational support?
79

Posted by Guessedworker on March 05, 2012, 03:34 PM | #

Desmond,

A state in which all are individuals seeking their own breaking of the bounds cannot be bounded by blood.  It must be an association of “free” men.

Does that answer your question?


Posted by Guessedworker on March 06, 2012, 07:05 AM | #

Desmond,

  Such a “free” association cannot exist if it is not homogeneous, as is evident in the modern world.

Yes, it becomes coercive at the point where Nature is the bound to be broken, as evinced by the appearance right there of anti-racism, anti-fascism, Holocaustianity, hate speech law, equality laws, etc.

I am not claiming that the liberal utopia does or can exist in fact, only that America, certainly post-1965, is an experiment in same.

Leon,

The reason “discover” is the right word, rather than “re-discover”, is because the pan-European level at which identification is required in America has never obtained in the past.


Desmond Jones
Does the will to negative liberty require propositionalism as a foundational support?


I would argue just the opposite - that the quest for liberty requires sufficient enmeshment, security and basis in and from one’s coherent folk.

 

 

101

Posted by Ex-Pro White Activist on March 06, 2012, 11:35 AM | #

J Richards @91

This will have to wait to be posted elsewhere.

Consider a Wiki format for this “elsewhere”. 

In any case the software choice should stand the test of time. It should particularly allow for constructive collaboration while also being easy to repair vandalism inflicted by entities like Leon Haller and Dr. Listerbag.

And it should be something that promotes crowd gathering and sustained focus on issues.  I believe Wordpress and M-R’s present format pander too much to individuals afflicted by egomania combined with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder.

About this site (from M-R’s ‘about’ page)

This website discusses various issues related to the preservation of Western culture and the ethnic genetic interests (EGI) of people of European ancestry.

“La perfide Albion” has of course broken this compact.  But that too is genetically rooted in my view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion

“Perfidious signifies one who does not keep his faith or word (from the Latin word “perfidia”), while Albion is the ancient Greek name for Great Britain.”

M-R is now delimited to the EGI of the downbred remnant lower class dregs of the island of Britain. They didn’t build it.  They just mal-appropriated it in classic English fashion.  They are not “upper class” from Ox-Cam or even Sandhurst.  They just pretend to be.  What they are in truth is a collection of Walter Mittys huddled in shabby council housing while the darkness closes in all around them.  Senility, cowardice (remember Dunkirk!  remember Singapore! remember Tobruk! remember the run from India!) and rank amateurism is their stock in trade.

Here’s how I picture Gayham Listerbag in truth.  His shitty little career stalled out long ago, probably without tenure.  He likely has a Jewish or South Asian department head (possibly female) who rubs his nose in it all day every day.  When he goes home at night he faces an obese blousy flat chested battleaxe who long ago rejected him in favor of her vibrator.  She also rubs his nose in it and threatens to have him tossed out, strapped with child support and possibly arrested for ‘abuse’.

So he tanks up and signs in here.  And he is cowering with fear and pissing his pants at the thought of the Board of Deputies of British Jews and their front operation in Her Majesty’s Non-White Persecution Service.  So this contemptible little pissant goes with the flow.  He lashes out at “Germans” and “Americans”.  Anything except the non-whites, Jews and upper class Tory English race traitors who are the real authors of his misery.  This little piece of feces even attacks with derision those who mention the “J-lizards”.

Back to “La perfide Albion”.

Don’t take my word for it.  Just ask the Greeks of Smyrna.  That is, ask them if you know of a genuine spirit medium who can really contact the dead.  The Greeks also found the English knife growing in their backs at a bad moment.  And the drunken deadbeat Zionist shill was urging their betrayal by claiming that the British Empire was the greatest Muslim power on Earth.  How about the White Armies of Russia?  Maybe the Rhodesians?

GW likely imagines he personifies English phlegm.  What he actually personifies is the unparalleled arrogant pigheadedness, stupidity, treachery and self-centered greed displayed by Englishmen generally throughout the 20th Century.  Roger Waters (Pink Floyd) on the Falkland Islands & Argentina is just the latest example.  Despite their clearly expressed will Waters would happily sell every last Falkland Islander to the Argentines if it meant more money (USD) in his pocket.

That is real England! 

I think GW’s doing a superb rendition of Alec Guiness’ Colonel Nicholson character in “Bridge on the River Kwai”.

Let us quickly skim just a few of England’s greatest achievements in the 20th Century.

Item:  Sodomite Field Marshal Kitchener and General Sir Douglas Haig both opined in 1915 (after nearly a year of trench warfare) that infantry battalions only needed 2-4 machine guns at most.

Item: Twelve months later in 1916 Haig launched the Battle of the Somme with battalions marching upright at dress right dress, bayonets at charge.  iow 24 months of direct experience of trench warfare was insufficient education.  This battle set the record for largest number of KIA losses in one day by any army in WWI. 

At Singapore the British set another 20th Century record for biggest mass surrender in WWII.

Item:  At Jutland three British battlecruisers detonated one after another in a few hours due to poor magazine protection and ammunition handling procedures.  They failed to inflict proportionate losses due to poorly made shells that broke up outside German armor. 

Item:  A quarter century later the battlecruiser HMS Hood blew up in the Denmark Strait for exactly the same reason.  And there is reason to believe it was actually the 8” gun cruiser Prinz Eugen who sank her, and not the Bismarck.

Item.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Swordfish#Operational_history  Brit.ish naval carrier aviation flew into WWII equipped with that fabric covered bi-plane deathtrap.  And the RN continued to manufacture and operate it well into 1945.

This is a lead-in to the fact that British equipment generally was both obsolete in design and poorly made junk.  Who else issued such deadly (to the user) items as the sticky bomb and the PIAT?

Then we have Admiral Tom Phillips sailing into history (sans air cover) with the Prince of Wales and Repulse off the coast of Malaya.  This was 18 months after the experiences of Norway.  And it was 7 months after Crete when the Luftwaffe beat back the Royal Navy in a contest for an island.

Recall the link recently to those drunken obese English sluts lying in the streets?  They’re not aberrational or recent.  They’re characteristic and traditional.  They’re right in the grand tradition of the slut whores of White Chapel that Dr. J. Ripper once operated on.

Did you all have lots of fun with your potty little anti-Americanism, you potty little shits?  It’s not hard to do.  I had fun.  And I’m just getting warmed up.  That is just a small dipstick check on what massive losers you people really are.

Considering the overall record one is compelled to ask, ‘who in their senses would want such ‘allies’?

Do us all one favor, GW.  Keep Leon Haller here.  I just wish we could physically move him from North America to Britain.  Doing so would massively improve both locales.

I leave you with this thought, GW.  During his paid-for Zionist war mongering in the 1930s the fat drunken deadbeat often would say approximately:

Nations that go down fighting rise again.  But nations that tamely submit vanish

Well sir, Germany went down fighting the Jewish tyranny and it is slowly rising again. 

England on the other hand tamely submitted to the Jewish whip.  And it is now disappearing.  The Rhodesian homeland of the English war criminal Arthur “Bomber” Harris previously disappeared.  This was a condign fate and justice.  England and all it represents is only an abscessed boil on the ass of the white race.

 

 

 

102

Posted by Dan Dare on March 06, 2012, 12:20 PM | #

At Singapore the British set another 20th Century record for biggest mass surrender in WWII.

Shome mishtake, shurely?

 

103

Posted by Ex-Pro White Activist on March 06, 2012, 01:22 PM | #

Shome mishtake, shurely?

Nope.  100,000 plus.  They greatly outnumbered the remnants of von Paulus’ Sixth Army at Stalingrad.  The only larger “surrenders” were concurrent with the surrenders of entire governments (France, Italy et al). 

But for largest white sub-unit throwing in the towel, and to non-whites at that, its hats off to His Britannic Majesty’s finest!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6D1YI-41ao

“In 1970 the British Empire lay in ruins, foreign nationals frequented the streets, many of them Hungarians (the foreign nationals, not the streets…”

Don’t you just love it when life imitates art?  Probably a daily event now.  Except its the son of England who now gets arrested and not the foreigner.

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Posted by Dan Dare on March 06, 2012, 02:34 PM | #

As a matter of fact there were some 85,000 ‘Empire’ troops on Singapore at the time of the Japanese assault. The majority of them were wogs, who subsequently showed their mettle by promptly defecting to the Nips after the surrender.

91,000 members of the 6th Army surrendered at Stalingrad including 24 generals.

But I wasn’t even referring to Stalingrad.

105

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 06, 2012, 03:17 PM | #

@Ex-Pro White Activist

Which goy nation is most under the whip of the tribe? I presume you’re familiar with Homo americanus-israeli?

If not let me give you some source material:

“Dark Crusade: Christian Zionism and US Foreign Policy”

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crusade-Christian-Zionism-International-Political/dp/1845117557/

“The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy”

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Israel-Lobby-US-Foreign-Policy/dp/0141031239/

“The Holocaust Industry”

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Holocaust-Industry-Reflections-Exploitation-Suffering/dp/185984488X/

“The Holocaust in American Life”

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Holocaust-American-Life-Peter-Novick/dp/0618082328/

And on America in general

“Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle”

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Illusion-Literacy-Triumph-Spectacle/dp/1568584377/

“Sorrows of Empire”

http://www.amazon.com/Sorrows-Empire-Chalmers-Johnson/dp/1844675483/

“Colossus: The Rise and Fall of the American Empire”

http://www.amazon.com/Colossus-Rise-Fall-American-Empire/dp/0143034790/

Hate to say I told you so…63% and counting down rapidly…tick tock, tick tock, tick tock…how can we copy such wonderful success? After all America is such a good example, yes? The shining city on the hill!

Enjoy your individual ‘liberty’ and personal freedom - it’s the American way. However any serious form of nationalism is a form of communal politics if it had escaped your attention. ‘We’ not ‘Me, myself and I’.

106

Posted by Dan Dare on March 06, 2012, 03:51 PM | #

Another one for the bedside table Graham, this time straight from the horse’s mouth! It’s particularly illuminating on the backstory to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, evidently conceived and conceded as part of a buttering-up exercise on the occasion of Israel’s 30th birthday.

“Jewish Power” JJ Goldberg

http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Power-Inside-American-Establishment/dp/0201327988

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Posted by Ex-Pro White Activist on March 06, 2012, 04:46 PM | #

Attention Perfidious Englishman (don’t all answer at once):

Just remove this piece of tiresome mendacity;

and the ethnic genetic interests (EGI) of people of European ancestry.

from the “About” statement. 

And you and your faux intellectualoids can peacefully blow meaningless gas all day long about “palingenesis”, “metapolitical” and “Liberals”.  And you can resume bad mouthing every European in existence except for the mass of obese sods and public park shagging slut animals presently being (deservedly) dispossessed of the island of Britain.

How incompetent are these dregs?  I once had to work for several weeks with a British regiment.  I lost a lot of weight because the British made field rations were discovered to have gas-swelled cans.  iow they still hadn’t learned how to safely can and inspect food come the late 1980s.  No surprise these morons were flying into combat all through WWII in the 1940s in fabric covered bi-planes. 

They are several degenerations from the state in which Charles A Lindbergh, Jr. (flying a monoplane across the Atlantic in the late 1920s) found them in the late 1930s.  And even then that was a very mediocre people ruled by a tiny number of geniuses. 

Note to Dr. Eigenvector:  GT and I have already clearly identified the USA as a “multiracial empire” on numerous occasions.  If you weren’t so busy admiring yourself you would have seen this.  Go get your “independent” Scotland, sod.  You’ll get precisely what the IRA and Sein Fein have delivered to all of Ireland: fewer white English and unlimited black Africans.

The over-the-top part comes when you claim the land of the Balfour Declaration, the Palestine Mandate, Churchill’s “Focus” paymasters, Secretary of State for War Leslie Hore-Belisha, a sitting Prime Minister telling the US Ambassador that “jews” were forcing the UK into war, the Rhodesian Sanctions et al is adequately judenrein to have ‘nationalism’ under control.  It isn’t.

You can put your head back in your ass now and lecture us some more, Dr. Eigenvalues.

108

Posted by Dan Dare on March 06, 2012, 05:18 PM | #

Diversity! To be celebrated, itz.

Each year, nearly a million people come legally to America. Today, nearly one in ten people in America was born in another country; one in five schoolchildren is from immigrant families. Today, largely because of immigration, there is no majority race in Hawaii or Houston or New York City. Within five years there will be no majority race in our largest state, California. In a little more than 50 years there will be no majority race in the United States. No other nation in history has gone through demographic change of this magnitude in so short a time.

...

What do the changes mean?

Let me state my view unequivocally. I believe new immigrants are good for America. They are revitalizing our cities. They are building our new economy. They are strengthening our ties to the global economy, just as earlier waves of immigrants settled on the new frontier and powered the Industrial Revolution. They are energizing our culture and broadening our vision of the world. They are renewing our most basic values and reminding us all of what it truly means to be an American.

...

“In a little more than 50 years there will be no majority race in the United States. No other nation in history has gone through demographic change of this magnitude in so short a time.“journey - a powerful reminder that our America is not so much a place as a promise; not a guarantee but a chance; not a particular race, but an embrace of our common humanity.

...

We should be honored that America, whether it’s called the City on a Hill, or the Old Gold Mountain, or El Norte, is still seen around the world as the land of new beginnings. We should all be proud that people living in isolated villages in far corners of the world actually recognize the Statue of Liberty. We should rejoice that children the world over study our Declaration of Independence and embrace its creed.

Pres. William H. Clinton
Portland State University, June 13, 1998

Since which time a further 13-14 million well fecund darkies have clambered aboard. Lots more room topside, mateys!

 

109

Posted by Savrola on March 06, 2012, 05:21 PM | #

Granted MR is a social club for middle-aged blowhards to bewail their fates. But even so, its about time that everyone of even the meanest intelligence (and the Anglo-Juden)  recognized and admitted that the English are a villainous and mendacious race, who cannot be trusted at all.

The only good Englishmen are either Jonathan Bowden, Southgate, dead or Scotch (Ian Stuart RIP)

110

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 06, 2012, 05:30 PM | #

Ex-Pro-White-Activist @ 11.35   Harsh, friend. No one had lowered themselves to direct personal attacks in this thread ‘til you showed up. I haven’t seen any direct anti-Americanism or anti-Europeanism either, just an interesting exchange on differing opinons over historical events and cultural evolution. Neither have I seen anyone claim to be ‘upper class Oxford/Cambridge/Sandhurst’ types. I have seen freedom of expression bravely exercised despite full knowledge that that expression almost certainly is being closely monitored by Obama’s/Her Majesty’s thought police. Anyone could piece together a conclusive argument if they pick and choose only facts that conform to the case they are trying to present, like your little history lesson. You blame England’s downfall and military failures on our historically treacherous upper class ‘elite’. And there, I am in wholehearted agreement with you. But those people are not England (neither is Graham_Lister, he is Scottish) nor do they represent the country that I know and love. A country that, outside of our inner cities, has an extremely high standard of living and is truly a green and plesant land. Worth preserving, just like the beautiful United States. This is a time where much stronger unity and understanding is called for, not division.

111

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 06, 2012, 06:49 PM | #

@Dan

Of course it should be obvious that any major Republican figure or President could have made the same basic speech – they are all hooked on the propositional Nepeta cataria – its in the political DNA of both right and left facing liberals. Remember it was Ronnie R that signed the largest amnesty in US history.

I don’t know why self-styled ‘radicals’ have such difficulties in coolly and analytically assessing the follies of Homo americanus? It seems beyond them – rather we enjoy a pitiful spectacle of special pleading and over-emotional rhetoric - it seems the ‘default’ position. America has many wonderful people but the overall ideological framework of the régime (the American way) is less than sound. Of course the malady effects the West in general but some patients suffer from more acute cases than others.

112

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 06, 2012, 07:07 PM | #

G_L @ 6.49   “the overall ideological framework of the régime (the American way) is less than sound”.Graham, you anti-Americanist. You’ll be eating those words after you watch this.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9INBcpcjkJY&NR=1&feature=endscreen

113

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 06, 2012, 07:10 PM | #

@Ex-white blowhard – aka Michael Jackson in reverse?

Obesity statistics you say?

USA is #1 in the percentage of adults that are obese = 30.6%

Now the UK is very bad in this regard perhaps because sadly we are so Americanised. We urgently need to be less so.

But two nations I very much admire do rather better:

Denmark has but 9.5% of adults that are obese.

Italy has but 8.5% of adults that are obese.

Now I wonder why I say I rather like Denmark and Danish society…hmm…empirical evidence obviously has nothing to do with my assessment. But recall Denmark, according to the average Homo americanus, is a “socialist hell-hole”.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity - for the stats.

Again it is merely willful perversity that prevents Danes and Italians from wanting to be more American, yes? I’m sure they would love 30+% obesity as that’s a real plus point of the American way of life, yes?

114

Posted by Guessedworker on March 06, 2012, 07:11 PM | #

Well said, Leo.  I concur fully, and might add that an extant American nationalism, if it can be fashioned, is a necessity for a successful European nationalism, both from the point of view of calling into question the meaning and dominance of liberalism (judeo-liberalism, if you prefer), and confronting an American elite which is “encouraged” by certain persons to militarise against that success

115

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 06, 2012, 07:39 PM | #

@GW

But what if the Republic adjusts to the new demographic realities with a pragmatic shrug and embraces its rapidly approaching post-Western status – is all hope really lost? Are Mars and Venus really joined at the hip?

These funky Svenskar seems to have penned a ditty about the typical Homo americanus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysGtBZX32I0

See the idiot walk, see the idiot talk…

Thankfully not all Americans are affected by the brain-rotting disease of the American ideology. But such authentic humans are thin on the ground. La-la land does not approve of such beings.

Obviously I admit we, mere Europeans, are jealous of your personal ‘freedom’ and individual ‘liberty’. True story dudes.

116

Posted by Dan Dare on March 06, 2012, 07:49 PM | #

Well said, Leo.  I concur fully, and might add that an extant American nationalism, if it can be fashioned, is a necessity for a successful European nationalism, both from the point of view of calling into question the meaning and dominance of liberalism (judeo-liberalism, if you prefer), and confronting an American elite which is “encouraged” by certain persons to militarise against that success

- GW

This seems to have become an article of faith around these parts and I wonder why that should have become the case.

I’m familiar with the Cap’n and others’ warnings that gunboats will be sent and Imperial Troopers will be deployed if and when Euros get a little too frisky in their own back yard and appear to be on the point of derailing the MultiKulti bandwaggon but haven’t as yet encountered any more substantial in the way of a rationale.

I’d view American nationalism as a very desirable ‘nice to have’ from a perspe ctive of racial solidarity, but it’s unclear why it should be considered a necessity, as far as Europeans are concerned.

117

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 06, 2012, 08:21 PM | #

@Dan

I concur. In the age of ‘imperial margarine’ will Uncle Sam really be bothered by such matters? It seems an assertion with scant evidence or rational reasoning behind it - it’s another trope of the costume politics brigade of non-thought with a side dish of banality.

118

Posted by Guessedworker on March 06, 2012, 08:27 PM | #

Today is Purim, Dan.  It’s the first possible day on which Israel is thought likely to attack Iran.  What would America do?  Well:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/panetta-when-all-else-fails-the-u-s-will-act-against-iran-1.416857

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-asked-panetta-to-approve-sale-of-bunker-busting-bombs-u-s-official-says-1.416900

... it will help.

So what might happen if the principals of globalisation find their vast power and wealth stripped from them by a regnant nationalism in Europe?  For nationalists cannot leave international finance and global capitalism (and, thereby, American industrial hegemony) to feed on the European body as it pleases.

It seems to me that there must be a response, and it wouldn’t be a gentle one.

119

Posted by Plane spotter on March 06, 2012, 09:03 PM | #

No surprise these morons were flying into combat all through WWII in the 1940s in fabric covered bi-planes.

They are several degenerations from the state in which Charles A Lindbergh, Jr. (flying a monoplane across the Atlantic in the late 1920s) found them in the late 1930s.  And even then that was a very mediocre people ruled by a tiny number of geniuses.

Eh?

The Swordfish remained in service because, despite its appearance it was still capable of doing the job. Horses for courses. The Italians continued using the CR42 biplane as a fighter no less! The Luftwaffe used Hs 123 ground attack biplane for much of the war.

You do realise that that Pitts Special stunt biplane is still in production, from 1944 to the present day?

This outfit Aviat are the current builders of the Pitts. They seem to be suffering from some kind of delusion that a biplane might be suitable for certain roles eg stunt flying. They have somehow failed to apply the lessons learned from Lindbergh’s monoplane, they even have pictures of monoplanes on their website - the fools, they dont realise!

I’ll leave it to you to get in touch with them and explain why 67 years of experience with that aircraft is invalid.

120

Posted by Ex-Pro White Activist on March 06, 2012, 09:09 PM | #

Are Mars and Venus really joined at the hip?

“Venus” will simply pass into the possession of the next Mars.  So you might as well carry a tube of K-Y jelly and be ready to bend over again, pussy.  What a pack of 100% pure manginas.  You parade your utter decadence as though it were a virtue.  It’s not.  It’s just contemptible decadence, identical to those fat, ugly drunk English whores laid out on public streets. 

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 06, 2012, 05:30 PM | #

Ex-Pro-White-Activist @ 11.35   Harsh, friend. No one had lowered themselves to direct personal attacks in this thread ‘til you showed up

Harsh and very fair.  “No one”?  You are wrong there.  This probably arises from what I’ve noticed is an English tendency not to be able to take 5% of what they dish out.

GW has an easy out here.  Just change the “About” page to specify “English EGI”.  Or even “British Isles native EGI” to include Dr. Douchebag in his croft.  Poof!  I will be gone forever.  But so long as he maintains the arrogant presumption to write “European ancestry” and then promote the nonstop crapola we’ve seen lately, tough.

This vat of afterbirth, led by Dr. Douchebag, has been on a non-stop snivel fest for weeks about how all their problems are caused by the USA (with assistance from Germany) and how the bad old USA even unleashed demon liberalism upon them.  Not true and HW (someone I don’t overly admire) gave them a well deserved, admirable and utterly unresisted thrashing on it.  GW’s only response was to imitate Field Marshal Haig on machineguns circa May, 1916. 

“Humph humph harrumph, I don’t think so.”

Since they decided to behave like British pos’s I have agreed to treat them as such. 

Harsh?  I just held a mirror up to their faces.  And it was one ugly view.  The truth is their problems are rooted in their 3d rate selves, not in “Americans” or in “Germans” present or past.

121

Posted by Dan Dare on March 06, 2012, 09:12 PM | #

Well, that is course the reason why I advocate for European nationalists to extend their field of vision beyond their own parochial interest and try to imagine a future EU which takes on a very different role and purpose to what it has today. We can’t all be Little Englanders or Kleiner Michels and hope to survive in a world in which power blocs, resource conflicts and struggle for Lebensraum have become the norm.

By pure serendipity, the EU has just this week itself (inadvertantly) broadcast just that very same message in a far more effective form than I could manage, only to have to hastily rescind following the inevitable howls of protest. You’ll probably know already what I refer to, but others may not yet have seen it.

Growing Together

122

Posted by Dan Dare on March 06, 2012, 09:15 PM | #

#121 is in response to GW @ 118.

123

Posted by Dan Dare on March 06, 2012, 09:25 PM | #

Herr XPWA may not have been aware that a low stall speed is a very positive attribute for a torpedo bomber like the Fairey Swordfish, and that a primary characteristic of biplanes is ...

I’d also add the Antonov An-2 as another sterling example of a rugged biplane design that did everything asked of it and more. It didn’t quite make WW II service, first flying in 1947, however there are still hundreds, likely thousands, still in operation across the third world (and China).

124

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 06, 2012, 09:38 PM | #

Ex-White-Pro-Activist @ 9.09   “fat, ugly drunk English whores laid out on public streets”. It’s a minor point, but those fat whores were filmed in Cardiff, the Capital city of Wales. They weren’t English.  If you went to Wales and called those girls English whores you’d get sparked flat on your ass, and not for the whores bit. You’ve clearly got an axe to grind here brah, and i’m not getting involved with you. I couldn’t care less to be honest. You should chill the f@#k out though cos you’re coming across as a bit of a mentalist.

125

Posted by Hyman on March 07, 2012, 03:41 AM | #

>>>  In a little more than 50 years there will be no majority race in the United States. No other nation in history has gone through demographic change of this magnitude in so short a time


Actually, the State of Israel did. The Jewish populace has been getting darker and darker since restoral of Hebrew sovereignty in 1948. The recent decision to bring in MORE christian ethiopians (don’t worry, they’re quite eager to get circumscized into the tribe - which our corrupt rabbinate will do when the Treasury coughs up the demanded fees) will merely make the phenomenon more noticeable.

Me?  I’m already shacked up with a full-blooded Filipina who was born and raised in Tel Aviv, did her 3 years conscript service in the Border Police breaking Palestinian skulls on the Temple Mount , and speaks only Hebrew.  The Malayan-race females truly are rice-powered f**king machines, gentlemen. I recommend them to you.

It seems like half the TelAviv city cops retire to Koh Samui in Thailand.  Google claims that the Thai bar girls in one particular warren of streets, speak pretty good Hebrew by now.

126

Posted by daniel on March 07, 2012, 03:52 AM | #

There is something additional to bear in mind when discussing America as a propositional nation.


You have no doubt heard the arguments that up to Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965 and various other corruptions by Jewish interests that America took for granted its being a White nation.


The word “White” is even used, albeit only once, explicitly in The Articles of Confederation, the guiding document after the Declaration of Independence.


My point is this: “White” is more propositinal than say, English or Scottish and Fraser makes an astute point that it, as a concept, went far to setting in motion the notion of a propositional nation, but two or three qualifiactions must be drawn to its being merely propositional.

1. “White” refers, in more than 90% of its applied instances, to people of native European descent, with a heavy bias toward persons of north western European descent.

Thus, Fraser is not exactly correct that it is a completely empty and an a-historical notion.

Despite its being held up to be disingenuously by some.

With that, I would concur that “White”, as a concept, has been misused and abused as a kind of empty and a-historical proposition, too much so, for its rebellion from the trappings of Europe. Therefore, yes, this historical aspect must be “re-discovered”. There were legitimate reasons for that -


2. Toward undoing the a-historical, propositional notion of White, a third category of European ought to be adopted as valid - mixed. I agree that there are dangers to that, perhaps many. But acknowledging that category, the validity of some opting for it may provide for accountability, a way to manage our folk, and their distinctions. This would also allow for the aspect of freedom of associaton, which. as Bowery et al have pointed out, is valid to characterize as a White/European thing. However, one may argue that the place of the mixed category should not be Eurpope and I would strongly concur.


3. The third point is that we should not underestimate how much the Jews perverted all American notions. As I have confirmed to my own satisfaction the Jewish corruption of many American ideas, I believe that it is likely the case that they are more responsible for taking America to propositional status than this concept of White, although it is, like many other American notions, naive/disingenuous in its quest for purity and innocence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

127

Posted by daniel on March 07, 2012, 04:15 AM | #

Posted by daniel on March 07, 2012, 03:52 AM | #

I’m going to edit some of my previous post. Sorry for my lapses in proofreading.


There are something additional things to bear in mind when discussing America as a propositional nation.


You have no doubt heard the arguments that up to The Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965 and various other corruptions by Jewish interests that America took for granted its being a White nation.


The word “White” is even used, albeit only once, explicitly in The Articles of Confederation, the guiding document after the Declaration of Independence.


My point is that while “White” is more propositinal than say, English or Scottish, it is not merely propositional, even for those who might wish it to be. Fraser makes an astute point that it, as a concept, went far to setting in motion the notion of a propositional nation, but two or three qualifiactions must be drawn to its being merely propositional.

1. “White” refers, in more than 90% of its applied instances, to people of native European descent, with a heavy bias toward persons of North Western European descent.

Thus, Fraser is not exactly correct that it is a completely empty and an a-historical notion.

Despite its being held up to be disingenuously by some.

With that, I would concur that “White”, as a concept, has been misused and abused as a kind of empty and a-historical proposition, too much so, for its rebellion from the trappings of Europe. However, there were legitimate reasons for that. Even so, yes, the historical aspect must be “re-discovered” in order to recover an organizational and accountable basis of White identity.


2. Toward undoing the a-historical, propositional notion of White, a third category of European ought to be adopted as valid - mixed. I agree that there are dangers to that, perhaps many. But acknowledging that category, the validity of some opting for it may provide for accountability, a way to manage our folk, and their distinctions. This would also allow for the aspect of freedom of associaton, which, as Bowery et al have pointed out, is valid to describe as a characteristically important value of White/Europeansg. However, one may argue that the place of the mixed category should not be Eurpope and I would strongly concur.


3. The third point is that we should not underestimate how much the Jews perverted all American notions. As I have confirmed to my own satisfaction the Jewish corruption of many American ideas, I believe that it is likely the case that they are more responsible for taking America to propositional status than this concept of White, although it is, like many other American notions, naive/disingenuous in its quest for purity and innocence.

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Posted by Desmond Jones on March 07, 2012, 04:18 AM | #

I am not claiming that the liberal utopia does or can exist in fact, only that America, certainly post-1965, is an experiment in same.

If such a free association of men cannot exist if not bound by blood, then logically America, post 1965, cannot be an experiment in same but only a furtherance of state coercion.

It’s also interesting to note that Stoddard’s contention that Pan-Nationalism destroys racial consciousness continues to stand the test of time.

129

Posted by daniel on March 07, 2012, 04:30 AM | #

osted by Desmond Jones on March 07, 2012, 04:18 AM | #

  I am not claiming that the liberal utopia does or can exist in fact, only that America, certainly post-1965, is an experiment in same.

If such a free association of men cannot exist if not bound by blood, then logically America, post 1965, cannot be an experiment in same but only a furtherance of state coercion.


I agree



It’s also interesting to note that Stoddard’s contention that Pan-Nationalism destroys racial consciousness continues to stand the test of time.


I am not familiar enough with his work, but an interesting point.

130

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 07, 2012, 04:32 AM | #

“freedom of association”

Fairly abstract and liberal concept to base a social order on – as GW mentioned earlier in the comments on the ‘hippy’ thread.

Also extreme value pluralism and individualism were there in American socio-political DNA from the get-go in the guise of religious freedom – yes the founders might have had a series of ‘background assumptions’ about how far, whom, and what these freedoms would be used for but those were non-rational by the standards of there own Enlightenment rationality/liberality. It seems hard for Americans to accept that their inorganic social-order was founded upon an act (or mindset), in retrospect, of hubris and folly. Now an American saying the founding fathers etc., are not the fountain of all wisdom really is a contemporary ‘thought crime’.

131

Posted by daniel on March 07, 2012, 05:00 AM | #

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 07, 2012, 04:32 AM | #

“freedom of association”

Fairly abstract and liberal concept to base a social order on – as GW mentioned earlier in the comments on the ‘hippy’ thread.

Also extreme value pluralism and individualism were there in American socio-political DNA from the get-go in the guise of religious freedom – yes the founders might have had a series of ‘background assumptions’ about how far, whom, and what these freedoms would be used for but those were non-rational by the standards of there own Enlightenment rationality/liberality. It seems hard for Americans to accept that their inorganic social-order was founded upon an act (or mindset), in retrospect, of hubris and folly. Now an American saying the founding fathers etc., are not the fountain of all wisdom really is a contemporary ‘thought crime’.


“Feedom of association” is not a passionate concern of mine. I am, in fact, more concerned for its corollary, freedom from association.

These ideas are nevertheless, indeed, too abstract - give me a moment, please.


In the way of the Enlightenment empricism upon which America was founded, these notions entail its attendant problems.

Too scientific (scientistic, to be exact) and superficially, dangerously experimental.


Thus, you raise an important caveat, Graham.


A Bowery may not know his own strength with his individualistic and scientific predilections.

Elsewhere (I might indicate later) I have criticized the laboratorhy of the states for the hazards of its scientistic attitude toward our evolution


However, in freedom of and from association he has some points to which I have become more partial.

First, I should say that I have been thinking about the importance of freedom of association for many years. And it was The Jews who perverted this notion too, with the “Civil Rights” Act of 1964 - which prohibited freedom from and of association.

http://reasonradionetwork.com/20111126/women-without-class


Nevertheless, in its uncorrupted form, freedom of and from association would seem a highly White/European value - self explanatory enough not to get into, IF


these mixed, freely chosen and more experimental human ecologies are accountable to and guaged in their controls against the two other of what I am calling the three White Goods.


The three White Goods to be coordinated:

1. Freedom of White and from non-White association


2. The deeply situated native European ecologies


3. The large White nation big enough to be a world power that can hold up to China and fund a space program etc.


Now, I think that I concur with you Graham and GW, that number two is the most important.


But as I have said before, I am waiting for VoR to publish a short essay on the coordination of these three goods.


That coordination is, I believe, the most relevant project now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

132

Posted by daniel on March 07, 2012, 05:05 AM | #

Posted by daniel on March 07, 2012, 05:00 AM | #

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 07, 2012, 04:32 AM | #

“freedom of association”

Fairly abstract and liberal concept to base a social order on – as GW mentioned earlier in the comments on the ‘hippy’ thread.

Also extreme value pluralism and individualism were there in American socio-political DNA from the get-go in the guise of religious freedom – yes the founders might have had a series of ‘background assumptions’ about how far, whom, and what these freedoms would be used for but those were non-rational by the standards of there own Enlightenment rationality/liberality. It seems hard for Americans to accept that their inorganic social-order was founded upon an act (or mindset), in retrospect, of hubris and folly. Now an American saying the founding fathers etc., are not the fountain of all wisdom really is a contemporary ‘thought crime’.


“Feedom of association” is not a passionate concern of mine. I am, in fact, more concerned for its corollary, freedom from association.

These ideas are nevertheless, indeed, too abstract - give me a moment, please.


In the way of the Enlightenment empricism upon which America was founded, these notions entail its problems.

Too scientific (scientistic, to be exact) and superficially, dangerously experimental.


Thus, you raise an important caveat, Graham.


A Bowery may not know his own strength with his individualistic and scientific predilections.

Elsewhere (I might indicate later) I have criticized the laboratorhy of the states for the hazards of its scientistic attitude toward our evolution


However, in freedom of and from association he has some points to which I have become more partial.

First, I should say that I have been thinking about the importance of freedom FROM association for many years. And it was The Jews who perverted this notion too, with the “Civil Rights” Act of 1964 - which prohibited freedom from and of association.

http://reasonradionetwork.com/20111126/women-without-class


Nevertheless, in its uncorrupted form, freedom of and from association would seem a highly White/European value - self explanatory enough not to get into, IF


these mixed, freely chosen and more experimental human ecologies are accountable to and guaged in their controls against the two other of what I am calling the three White Goods.


The three White Goods to be coordinated:

1. Freedom of White and from non-White association


2. The deeply situated native European ecologies


3. The large White nation big enough to be a world power that can hold up to China and fund a space program etc.


Now, I think that I concur with you Graham and GW, that number two is the most important.


But as I have said before, I am waiting for VoR to publish a short essay on the coordination of these three goods.


That coordination is, I believe, the most relevant project now.

133

Posted by daniel on March 07, 2012, 05:22 AM | #

..it would seem that White male Being would correspond very closely to freedom from association.

134

Posted by Leon Haller on March 07, 2012, 05:31 AM | #

I tried to inject a bit of sense to this thread @66-67, but evidently failed.

The intellectual calibre really needs to be improved around here. What is the point of all this intramural attacking? Reminds me of the idiocy of Europe’s second Thirty Years’ War, whose only true victors were the Bolshevik cockroaches, international Jewry, and the Third World.

America is being Obamunized, Britain is burning, France is enveloped by the House of Islam, Germany is abolishing itself - should we gloat at each other’s misfortunes, or recognize the need for a transcendent racial unity?

Personal attacks in lieu of intellectual disputation should be avoided. If one reads carefully, it has almost always been the Richards Faction (which includes troll “Ivan/Circassian”) which has precipitated this ‘turn to the personal’. That group should develop its own site to match its ideologically tendentious tendencies, and leave here. (That includes semi-literate hangers-on.)

Anyway, I cannot participate too much until my term ends, but I have received that Krebs book to review, and have commenced some extracurricular background reading (and re-reading) relevant to my review, which should also make me a more able contributor to this site in the future.

135

Posted by Leon Haller on March 07, 2012, 05:31 AM | #

What’s with the unrequested italics?

136

Posted by daniel on March 07, 2012, 05:41 AM | #

Leon Haller,

I don’t know if you have read my posts, but they are not trying to create conflict among White/European folks. On the contrary. I see no necessary dispute with GW’s, Graham’s and other folks aims.

I hope that my typos and oversights for lack of thorough prroofreading don’t place me into the category of semi-literate.

As for not being able to shut off italics, that is part of the reason why I posted some things twice - trying to shut the italics off.

137

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 07, 2012, 06:48 AM | #

The italics thing is odd…oh well

Ah Leon so you are reviewing it – excellent! I look forward to that – for all our disagreements at least your are intelligent and generally sane – even if I think sometimes mistaken.

Book reviews can be excellent springboards for wider treatment of a theme or topic so we should have more of them – reading widely should not be considered as some sort of offence.

As for the personal stuff – yes I’m guilty on occasion usually in service of a wider intellectual point I hope – but the dynamic is generally set-up by the esoteric/tin foil/costume politics crowd – mainly because their arguments tend to be astonishingly poor both analytically and synthetically - hence the rapid move to ad hominem and schoolyard crys like ‘gay’ from such titans as Grimdrim - the expert in the esoteric languages of spiritual beings from Jupiter.

Europeans should never be ashamed of genuine erudition for a purpose.

Graduate school is hard work especially if one takes it seriously – good luck.

138

Posted by FB on March 07, 2012, 02:23 PM | #

Can somebody cite some English anti-liberal, proto-fascist thinkers or authors or movements? (Besides the johnny-come-lately “Kosher Nazi”)). Pretty much all European nations can refer themselves to such intellectuals, except for the “Perfidious Albion.” Historically, the (not-so-great) Britain viewed itself as the cradle of liberal thought, no? Please elaborate on this universal misconception.

139

Posted by FB on March 07, 2012, 03:19 PM | #

I think HW is doing a great disservice to English emotional and psychological well-being by confusing DD, GW, and GL with facts.

140

Posted by Cothrom Amháin on March 07, 2012, 03:57 PM | #

Are HW’s facts like his gym schedule: non-existent?

FB nice idea that politics is a choice between liberalism and fascism…not.

141

Posted by FB on March 07, 2012, 04:03 PM | #

Please point out where he is mistaken and don’t put words in my mouth, asshole.

142

Posted by Dan Dare on March 07, 2012, 04:09 PM | #

FB - Hunter is not mistaken, in that the facts he has selected are undoubtedly correct. It’s simply that a more-or-less random selection of cherry-picked facts does not amount to persuasive argumention as I believe you (und Hunter) understand very well.

As noted earlier, we had this same discussion in an earlier thread, in which Hunter made similar claims, but then neglected to substantiate them.

I for one see no compelling reason to engage him when he can’t be bothered to put more effort into it. As it stands now, it’s a little like arguing the toss with the proprietors of Ripley’s Believe It or Not, and just as intellectually stimulating.

143

Posted by fucking momos on March 07, 2012, 04:32 PM | #

End italic

144

Posted by fucking momos on March 07, 2012, 04:36 PM | #

Iend italics

145

Posted by Desmond Jones on March 07, 2012, 06:26 PM | #

Fairly abstract and liberal concept to base a social order on – as GW mentioned earlier in the comments on the ‘hippy’ thread.

Not at all, because it must be bound by blood or it cannot exist. And blood is not an abstract concept.

...it becomes coercive at the point where Nature is the bound to be broken, as evinced by the appearance right there of anti-racism, anti-fascism, Holocaustianity, hate speech law, equality laws, etc.

146

Posted by ideologically tendentious tendencies on March 07, 2012, 06:49 PM | #

Posted by FB on March 07, 2012, 02:23 PM | #  Hi FB, I’m not 100% sure this is what you’re after but a guy called called Oswald Mosley seems to fit the mould most of all. This is quite an interesting clip, subject, The Battle of Cable Street, 1936. At one time Mr Mosley’s movement was some 50,000 strong.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AQDOjQGZuA

147

Posted by ideologically tendentious tendencies on March 07, 2012, 07:10 PM | #

FB - This might be of interest too. More Mosley.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTWLP4paazk&feature=related

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Posted by Lurker on March 07, 2012, 07:43 PM | #

OK, Ive slain the unwanted italics but that may in turn have messed up the emphasis in some peoples comments.

149

Posted by ideologically tendentious tendencies on March 07, 2012, 08:00 PM | #

Sir Mosley suffered the same fate that befalls any uppity ‘perfidious Albionian’ that threatens the stranglehold on power that the UK’s liberal élite jealously guard. It might help if you begin to envisage the UK as more a large, tightly controlled, open prison, than a meritocratic nation of free men. If you have any US Marines spare to come and release us, by all means feel free. But the true patriots of America will have to somehow regain control of their own nation before that can happen.

150

Posted by ivan drago on March 07, 2012, 08:10 PM | #

I lived in LA and NY and a bit in London but I am Italian and back in the motherland

Americans whites are usually afraid to speak of race and jews, they only whisper among friends and not many of them

Italians are not so brainwashed and intimidated, yet. In half of Northern Italy the dominant party is an ethnic party, predicated on the solidarity of northern italians as some kind of race basically and is quite anti-immigrant. It does not affect national policy because we are under the UE, but peole talk quite freely, they say “... are you crazy to rent o sell the apartments to a somalian ...”
I had five couoles for dinner and at a certain point everybody I do not remember why was talking of how the jews rule the world, I am taking professional,engineers and entrpreneurs not naziskin

in the USA… oh well…

151

Posted by ideologically tendentious tendencies on March 07, 2012, 08:28 PM | #

Posted by ivan drago on March 07, 2012, 08:10 PM | #  Thats good news to hear from northern Italy Ivan Drago. I think some of the Americans around here could make a start by remembering who their real friends are.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2111405/Afghanistan-explosion-Taliban-blast-takes-Britains-Afghan-death-toll-past-400.html  This might help them with targetting their true enemies.

152

Posted by GenoType on March 07, 2012, 08:54 PM | #

Eh?

The Swordfish remained in service because, despite its appearance it was still capable of doing the job. Horses for courses. The Italians … - Plane spotter

A classic MR comment.  Not just wrong, stupid, and intransigent but lazy. 

Herr XPWA may not have been aware that a low stall speed is a very positive attribute for a torpedo bomber like the Fairey Swordfish – Dickless Dan vDare

Another lazy comment resulting from a rapid Google search.  Be advised, Dickless Dan, that “Herr” XPWA is a licensed multi-engine pilot and has probably forgotten more than you will ever know about aircraft and low stalling speed.

Compare the Swordfish to the Douglas Devastator, which the USN already regarded as obsolete in 1940.  Then look at the Grumman Avenger TBF, which in production from early 1942. 

The US’ Avenger was used by the British in its Fleet Air Arm

The Swordfish’ low stall speed was suitable for WWI tactics, not WWII.  During the latter its signature accomplishment was the sinking of one Italian battleship and the damaging of two others at Taranto Port.  A bit more than low stall speed was involved.  Wooden fins placed on each torpedo were still required to break its dive, and a wire connected from the bomb to its respective biplane allowed the nose to be pulled up and result in a “belly flop.”  Notably unmentioned by Dickless Dan is the fact that Italy was not only a nation held in low regard by Germany, Japan, and the Allies, but was defeated in Africa by the Ethiopian Emperor, Haile Selassie with some help from Britain.  Japan’s accomplishments were greater.

Japan, to its credit, studied the Battle of Taranto, and attacked the United States with probably the fastest torpedo bomber aircraft available at the time using far superior bomber tactics.

 

153

Posted by Dan Dare on March 07, 2012, 09:41 PM | #

Herr XWPA appears to passed over, accidentally I’m sure, the role played by Swordfishes in the sinking of the Bismarck. Other efforts could be cited, but there seems little point.

Of course the Swordfish was technically obsolescent at the outbreak of hostilities (even the gormless Brits realised that), and did come to be superseded in FAA front-line service later in the war when better aircraft became available, domestic as well as US built.

However at the time in question it was what was available and what had to be used. Torpedo bombers were not a priority for Britain, especially once it became clear that Axis fleets had either been destroyed, disabled or otherwise confined to quarters.

One advantage of coming late to the party is that you have the luxury of learning from others’ experiences and arranging your outfit to suit. Not that such lessons are always taken on board of course, as the disastrous introduction of the 8th USAAF into the ETO or the events attendant to Operation Torch clearly demonstrate.

Congratulations on the multi-engine rating btw, I’ve never progressed beyond VFR in Spam-cans myself so am like totally in awe.

But now that we’ve done the Swordfish, what are your thoughts on that renowned Me 110 killer, the Gloster Gladiator. Here’s one in a particularly nice livery that’s sure to please.


Lamp


I do so enjoy our little chinwags, let’s stay in touch especially now we’ve become flybuddies.

154

Posted by Lurker on March 07, 2012, 09:47 PM | #

Be advised, Dickless Dan, that “Herr” XPWA is a licensed multi-engine pilot

Perhaps he should have mentioned his expertise at some point, when passing judgement? Why do we only find this out now?

He seems to think that because Lindbergh flew a monoplane across the Atlantic , this has some bearing on other aircraft used for other functions. After all, I could note that after the British & Germans started using jet fighters the US continued to use piston engined transport aircraft. Well why did they do that? I mean, they are all the same thing really, they all fly only some nitpicker would worry about what their function was.

The US’ Avenger was used by the British in its Fleet Air Arm.

So, on the one hand you support the claim that the Swordfish was used throughout WW2 but then qualify it with the above statement. If you had looked into it a bit you would have noted that while the Swordfish remained in service thru WW2 it was displaced from frontline torpedo bomber duties by 1942. Relegated to various operations that didnt involve going against heavy AAA or fighters Why? Because it was obsolete and replaced by Avengers amongst others.

XPWA seems to have conflated ‘in service’ with ‘frontline combat’.

155

Posted by Lurker on March 07, 2012, 10:12 PM | #

That Gladiator is in Finnish markings btw.

Im aware that piston engined biplanes are still used today as cropdusters, even in the US. This despite the established fact that there exists a monoplane, the SR-71 Blackbird, capable of Mach 3.

Please dont trouble us with complaints about how the SR-71 uses exotic materials, specialised pilot training, air-to-air refueling and that its exorbitant running costs generally make its use impractical in the agricultural sector. Thats not the point. Because its already been established, by a qualified pilot no less, that just as Lindberghs use of a monoplane invalidates the use of any other type in any other role, the SR-71 must invalidate other aircraft in the same way.

I see the Pitts Special was mentioned above, why do people persist in using such an aircraft when other more modern options are available. They could fly this, or this or even this. They are all monoplanes and therefore must be better.

156

Posted by Ex-Pro White Activist on March 07, 2012, 10:49 PM | #

The US’ Avenger was used by the British in its Fleet Air Arm.

As was the Grumman F-4F Wildcat carrier fighter (the British called them “Martlets”):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F4F_Wildcat#Royal_Navy_Martlets

” I would still assess the Wildcat as the outstanding naval fighter of the early years of World War II ... I can vouch as a matter of personal experience, this Grumman fighter was one of the finest shipboard aeroplanes ever created.”
  —Eric M. Brown, British test pilot[2]

Clearly the Fairey Fulmar carrier fighter also failed to cut the mustard.  The Supermarine Spitfire was later adapted as the “Seafire”.  But by then the USN had flown into the future with the F-6F Hellcat, the F-8F Bearcat and the Chance-Vought F-4U Corsair.

Dan, you have potential but you are intellectually careless.  This is an appropriate thread to start sharpening up.  This idea of mythos that GW traffics in is what cost you people your Empire.  This is the same problem as we had awhile back with that greenie agit-prop site you claimed was proving your case.

As for Singapore, I saved the best for last.  That garrison surrendered to a Japanese force that was only 1/3 its size.  The same thing occurred a few months later at Tobruk.  The Imperial garrison also surrendered to an Axis force only half its size.  I look at events like this to see where non-whites learned their contempt of white people. 

Of course this behavior by the last viceroy of the Indian Empire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Mountbatten,_1st_Earl_Mountbatten_of_Burma#Sexuality

plus Jawaharlal Nehru screwing Viceroyess Edwina Mountbatten probably didn’t increase white prestige.  US General Joseph Stillwell in the CBI absolutely despised Mountbatten and did little to hide it. 

For a period in my life I was the quite the Anglophile.  Contact with reality introduced a more realistic view.  I still have a ‘thing’ for 1960s ‘British’ films like Michael Caine’s Harry Palmer series and others.  I think I like the cinematography.  btw, the tiresome snide anti-American comments that have come into fashion here are so pedestrian.  Nigel Greene and Guy Doleman were exchanging such shabby genteel prejudices in their roles as British Army intelligence officers in the Ipcress File.  Come on Listerbag, plagiarize some newer material.

Dan, I even assembled a first edition collection of Winston Churchill’s works.  Not just WWII memoirs but all the WWI “World Crisis” volumes and the History of the English Speaking Peoples.  The British 1st Edition dust jackets of History of the English Speaking Peoples are true masterpieces of art in themselves. 

In his WWII Memoirs WSC tried to make a ‘good show’ and keep a “stiff upper lip” but the 3d rate character of British weapons and human capital keeps coming through loud and clear. 

—- The constant importuning for ‘Martlets’ to equip the Fleet Air Arm,

—- Standing hat in hand in the Oval Office on the morrow after the 1942 Tobruk surrender begging FDR and General Marshall for Sherman tanks to be sent to the 8th Army in Egypt.  This was after three years of war.  British made vehicles were just junk. 

This was discovered yet again in the fall of 1944 in France.  Nine hundred British built trucks were found to have defective engine blocks.  This severely cramped the 21st Army Group’s logistics effort at a key moment.

—-the long string of memos to the First Sea Lord bewailing the inferior character of the King George V class compared to the USN’s North Carolina, South Dakota and Iowa class battleships.   

—- complaints the Americans were developing and issuing penicillin faster than the British who had discovered it,

—- whining for allocations of American made radar fused VT shells.  Again, the British were incapable of leveraging original discoveries like the cavity magnetron while the Americans micro-miniaturized it.

—- Complaints the RAF was falling behind in bomber design compared to the B-29 and the projected B-36. 

Lindbergh was right.  Tiny number of geniuses, very mediocre people. 

(GW, you can end this “English Bob” style pummeling at any time.  Just drop the arrogant presumption in ‘About’ to speak for people of European ancestry if you also insist on pandering to knee jerk Cockney corner pub conceit and indulging your anti-German hate.  You want to preserve a “1948” genetic basis of England?  I suggest you try crawling to the non-white UN and asking for preservation as a primitive uncontacted tribal group like Amazonian natives.  I can help you justify it on a historical technological achievement basis).

@Planespotter

Yes, I’m aware the various marks of Pitts aerobatic planes are still built.  I have acquaintances who own factory built and scaled down “homebuilt” versions.  The design is really starting to show its age.  The Soviet/Russian Yak-55 and SU-31 are far better overall aerobatic competition planes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietenpol_Air_Camper

This 1928 design is still built, too. 

One of my maintenance sergeants built a Breezy once.  He was a superb welder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RLU-1_Breezy

I’m also a Desert Shield/Storm veteran, as GW is aware.  And I’m unaware of Combat Sortie 1 by any fabric covered bi-planes then or later in CENTCOM’s area in the 1990s.  But if you aware of any such combat sorties in recent decades let me know privately.  That story will be worth serious money in commercial aviation media.

However, a few Antonov An-2 transports were possibly used by Croatian forces during the 1990s as makeshift bombers.  I doubt the Iraqis ever attempted the same with their AN-2s.   

 


157

Posted by Lurker on March 07, 2012, 11:58 PM | #

XPWA - Im not really in disagreement with you - except, narrowly,  the biplane thing!

In WWII we can see time and again, as you’ve illustrated, where innovations were overlooked or ignored or were not taken advantage of. Either industrial infrastructure simply wasnt there or no thought was given to the wider, long term picture at all. For me, probably for many of us, we find ourselves where we are politically because we’ve woken up to the abject failure of our elites over many years in many areas.

This plane says it all to me - the Fairey Battle

Right there you’ve got an aircraft which looks like a Spitfire or Hurricane but is a bomber. The exact same engine but hauling round a larger airframe, two crew and a bomb load as well. 

Even if a direct comparison couldnt be made to German fighters (lack of access obviously) it could certainly be measured against those British fighters and its failings would be glaring. How could it possibly perform in the face of serious opposition? How could anyone in government, airforce, industry have allowed such a thing to come into existence, it must have been bloody obvious what the problem was.

158

Posted by Lurker on March 08, 2012, 12:03 AM | #

Posted too soon.

Some might make the same attack on the Ju87, slow and vulnerable to fighters, but at least it had dive bomb capability. The Battle didnt even have that in its favour.

159

Posted by Fool me once, won't fool me again, fool me twice on March 08, 2012, 12:23 AM | #

You are all grossly disrespecting Kievsky and the topic of this thread which is of crucial, critical significance to the survival of the white race as we know it. Education, not valor. Victory in the mind war. Can you PLEASE start discussing the topic at hand, and stop f**cking arguing. Thank you.

160

Posted by Dan Dare on March 08, 2012, 01:58 AM | #

On the other hand, the Avro Lancaster could carry a 5 ton payload all the way to Königsberg and get back home again, not to mention carrying a 22,000 lb Grand Slam to central Germany,while the B-17 and B-24 with all their in-flight comforts - fully-armoured La-Z-Boys for pilot and co-pilot, onboard capuccino machines and enough machine gunners to man a Panzergrenadier battalion (but no radar) - could hardly magage a three-ton load as far as Berlin, and only then if there were a squadron of (Rolls-Royce engined) P-51s assigned to each box.

It’s little wonder that the RAF evaluated the Flying Fortress and Liberator and then rejected the former and relegated the latter to VIP transportation duties.

161

Posted by Dan Dare on March 08, 2012, 02:09 AM | #

Lurker:

I think if any dispassionate (and knowledgable) observer were asked to list the ten outstanding aircraft of WW II the following would have to be included (not in any particular order):

- Me 109
- Fw 190/ Ta 152
- Me 262
- Supermarine Spitfire
- Avro Lancaster
- DH Mosquito
- Hawker Typhoon
- Mitsubishi Zero
- NA P51 Mustang
- Boeing B17 Fortress

The Fairy Battle was a mistake for sure, but belligerents had their own examples of those, the Ju 87 Stuka being just one case in point. If you don’t make mistakes you will not learn.

162

Posted by ideologically tendentious tendencies on March 08, 2012, 02:11 AM | #

“Haters gonna hate”.  http://englandcalling.wordpress.com/2011/12/30/human-accomplishment-and-the-english-2/  At this time   http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2111405/Afghanistan-explosion-Taliban-blast-takes-Britains-Afghan-death-toll-past-400.html  genuine military men, should lead the way in showing a little respect, humility and human decency.

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Posted by ideologically tendentious tendencies on March 08, 2012, 02:40 AM | #

Damn it. It turns out the only thing the English invented since WW2 was the hovercraft. I suppose you at least get to hover. In your craft. Not like these fools sat in their traffic jam.  http://i.imgur.com/XSuaN.jpg  Hmmmm. I’m not sure my debating skills are up to MR standards.

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Posted by Dan Dare on March 08, 2012, 02:41 AM | #

Anyone who trumpets their credential as a “Desert Shield/Desert Storm veteran” is not a genuine miltary man, but a mere poseur. I should have thought that much would have been self-evident.

Genuine military men tend not to swank about their experiences. It’s simply poor form to do so.

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Posted by ideologically tendentious tendencies on March 08, 2012, 02:50 AM | #

I really like XPWA Dan, he’s funny as hell and seems to really know his stuff and be a man of action etc. A true American hero type dude. He seems to reeeeeeeeeally hate the Brits, but if I was American I would probably hate the Brits too. I work with Americans every day and have done for years and we all get on great. The younger generations are getting on fine so there is plenty of hope for the future.

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Posted by Dan Dare on March 08, 2012, 03:01 AM | #

The reason Americans hate the Brits is that we make them feel like the semi-literate hayseeds that most of them are.

Having an English accent in America is like having an instant 20 point IQ boost.

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Posted by ideologically tendentious tendencies on March 08, 2012, 03:06 AM | #

One characteristic I have regularly observed though. If you criticise the USA or talk about it in a negative way, they go bloody mental and instantly hyper defensive. I think I understand the reasons behind it but I’d rather not talk about it here because the Americans will go nuts and I don’t want to stir up any more agro.

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Posted by Dan Dare on March 08, 2012, 03:10 AM | #

Yes I know. It’s great sport.

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Posted by ideologically tendentious tendencies on March 08, 2012, 03:10 AM | #

Uh oh, too late for that I see. Nice one Dan. I’m running away. You can deal with the shitstorm.

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Posted by ideologically tendentious tendencies on March 08, 2012, 03:12 AM | #

Our messages are running out of synch lol. I have to go Dan catch you soon. Have fun.

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 08, 2012, 05:01 AM | #

@Dan

On the silence of military men – yes in my own family I recall a similar phenomenon – one of my elderly relatives had been a Japanese POW – he apparently never spoke of his experiences to anyone. I think he thought it wouldn’t serve any purpose to expose his loved ones to the horrors he experienced. He had both dignity and a real strength of character.

And yes being British in America feels like being a genius – the typical Homo americanus is generally so ignorant and parochial in outlook it’s unavoidable.

Which brings us onto XWPA – military hero, philosopher and historian.

Now XWPA the notion that the natives of the Isles have achieved nothing (we are ‘backwards’ etc.) is so absurd as to make the person suggesting it look extraordinarily foolish – we can all name examples of genuine excellence from the British Isles in science, medicine, engineering, literature, art, music, philosophy, economics, architecture, military affairs or whatever.

Now here is a very simple question or two typed very out slowly for XWPA:

First – what the present state of the Republic and what is its trajectory – improvement, decline or stasis?

Second – is the socio-politico-economic model of America one that all other Western nations should copy as quickly as possible? Please tells us how and why Italian or Danish society would be better for being more American – as America existing in reality today in 2012 – not in your fantasy of what it should look like, yes?

Obviously you can offer some answers to my queries, yes? They are topics even you should be able to discuss in a semi-rational way.

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 08, 2012, 06:22 AM | #

Off topic but…

Rochdale child-sex trial: ‘Victim woke up being raped’

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17291143

Diversity literally is perversity - unless one is a Muslim obviously -  then its normal behaviour eh Ivan?

Why do we tolerate such utterly awful alien scum and their ‘culture’?

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Posted by Leon Haller on March 08, 2012, 06:37 AM | #

Ah Leon so you are reviewing it – excellent! I look forward to that – for all our disagreements at least your are intelligent and generally sane – even if I think sometimes mistaken.

Book reviews can be excellent springboards for wider treatment of a theme or topic so we should have more of them – reading widely should not be considered as some sort of offence.

As for the personal stuff – yes I’m guilty on occasion usually in service of a wider intellectual point I hope – but the dynamic is generally set-up by the esoteric/tin foil/costume politics crowd – mainly because their arguments tend to be astonishingly poor both analytically and synthetically - hence the rapid move to ad hominem and schoolyard crys like ‘gay’ from such titans as Grimdrim - the expert in the esoteric languages of spiritual beings from Jupiter.

Europeans should never be ashamed of genuine erudition for a purpose.

Graduate school is hard work especially if one takes it seriously – good luck.(Lister)

Thanks for the kind sentiments.

I agree re book reviews. The Krebs book is slight, and a perfunctory review could easily be finished in a day. But as I mentioned in private correspondence to GW, I am inordinately busy this semester, doing a full load (Fall was only 3/4) of difficult courses (Catholicism may not, in your opinion, correspond to anything ontologically real, but it remains a rather conceptually intricate ‘unreality’), plus some consulting on the side, as a short term opportunity has arisen which I did not feel it ‘fiscally’ prudent to pass up. Moreover, as I also mentioned to GW, I’m taking this review opportunity to read or re-read a number of relevant background books (eg, inter alia, Gress, From Plato to NATO; Herf, Reactionary Modernism; Evola, Revolt Against The Modern World) which should enable me to be tolerably informed and thus reasonably fair to Krebs, and appropriately judicious for readers’ sakes.

As all this is extracurricular, so to speak, however, it may be a while until I actually submit the review. But I have assured our leader that he shall not be left in the lurch!

Impressive essay on nationalism and its relation to the fascist past, btw. I wish I had time right now to engage with it properly. But I’m scared that if I start, I won’t be able to keep it short - and will regret it later if I should fall behind with my course reading (I cannot believe the ridiculous emphasis on that ‘mouldy-oldy’ “classroom participation” around here - am I in grade school again?!).

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Posted by Leon Haller on March 08, 2012, 07:01 AM | #

Did XPWA actually state that the natives of ‘The Isles’ are without accomplishment? As a fellow American I’m actually embarrassed even by comparisons between British and American history (and not only British: French, German, Italian…). In most areas of intellectual and cultural life, America has been distinctly second-rate (where we have been unsurpassed, if hardly unrivaled, is in commerce and industrial invention - though many of our great inventors were European transplants (but not all, of course); also government stability and quality, at least until recently).

The true (and admirable, imo) ‘genius’ of America was not in fostering outsized excellence, but in securing decent lives of very considerable freedom and dignity for very large numbers, and without overmuch class conflict. Until the sell-out of the white working class, which began in the 70s, the American ‘common man’ had a quality of life which was the envy of common people everywhere. That’s how the American experience should be judged.

Anyway, this XPWA is a very intemperate and I’m certain unpleasant fellow. His vitriolic attacks somewhere above were completely uncalled for.

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Posted by General disorder on March 08, 2012, 10:25 AM | #

Gram,

“Why do we tolerate such utterly awful alien scum and their ‘culture’?”

I thought you’d already answered this: (1) it’s America’s fault; (2) per GW, the US will bomb you if you try to change anything; (3) according to Dan Dare, there’s actually nothing to worry about—Europe is in very good shape demographically and if the UK just embraces the EU hard enough they’ll be restored as a world power (which is of course what really matters, having Americans pay as much attention to us as we do to them, as opposed to the preservation of the English as a distinct people).


XPWA,

“What they are in truth is a collection of Walter Mittys huddled in shabby council housing while the darkness closes in all around them.  Senility, cowardice [. . .] and rank amateurism is their stock in trade.”

Also more or less my impression of you and your lackey. How many years have you been screaming about “microcommunities”? How many microcommunities have you actually organized? Shut the fuck up and do it. If it works as you say it will work, you will have plenty of imitators. Whereas in your years of posting here you’ve accumulated zero followers beyond the one you brought with you.

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 08, 2012, 10:58 AM | #

@Leon

Yes XWPA implied that the Isles were populated by people that resemble a ‘backwards’ Amazonian tribe…oh well, never mind.

Thanks for the kind words in return – I appreciate that America did achieve a decent life for many, and indeed has had many outstanding figures in its history. I actually very much liked most of the people I encountered in the USA – ‘Minnesota nice’ isn’t a cliché (but the Africans were a different matter). However, I don’t think it serves people’s analytical purpose to look at the many difficult contemporary issues of the Republic through rose-tinted glasses – nor indeed British/English problems – or those of the wider European scene. Brutal honesty is better than naïve but comforting cheer-leading.

Yeah on the topic of nationalism I wanted to make the obvious point – to me anyway – that nationalism doesn’t automatically equal fascism. It’s a false dichotomy that life and politics comes down to liberalism versus fascism – such a mindset is extremely unsophisticated and is always on display by the costume clowns – in part I think because they think it’s terribly exciting to be ‘dangerous’ antinomians ‘beyond the pale’ etc., – a mindset of emotional, if not chronological, teenagers.

I appreciate that philosophical theology is a complex subject. Like I’ve said before I have no issue with intellectual theists and I am myself an agnostic (I don’t think anyone knows – it’s all guesswork). Contra the late Chris Hitchens a society under radical Islam instead of Quakerism are quite different ‘social spaces’ it’s more that the ‘religious culture’ typically observed in the USA that I find distasteful.  On that topic I hope to read this when time allows:

Jesus in America: Personal Savior, Cultural Hero, National Obsession.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jesus-America-Personal-Cultural-Obsession/dp/1435292715/

In a way it is distressing to see the Christian tradition reduced to the utter banalities of hucksters in mega-churches and TV studios.

I myself have sort of promised GW an essay on Nietzsche, ontological realism, Aristotelian virtue and the meaning of life! Well something along those lines, but it requires time and energy which are always limiting resources.

@General Disorder

Well I was letting off some steam with a rhetorical question, rather like Morrissey, don’t hate all Pakistanis but rather intensely dislike them as an alien group in the UK – in their real homeland I couldn’t care less about them either way. And I think you do offer a parody of what we the ‘Anglo’ tendency are saying – yes it’s a malady of the West in general, but the patient with by far the worst symptoms is Uncle Sam - yet his true-believers tell us he has the cure for the disease – sorry if we are a bit sceptical. I’m planning to tackle the delusions and problems of the UK at some stage – have patience.

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Posted by Dan Dare on March 08, 2012, 11:54 AM | #

General Disorder is correct in stating my prescription does entail a closer bonding with our fellow Europeans but he is wrong to suggest that I have no regard for English EGI. That can only have come from a very superficial reading of what I have written on the matter.

Fortunately, the tide is running in the right direction for once, although the fools who populate our managerial elites and who still dote on the “Special Relationship” have not noticed it yet, or have chosen not to. The Atlanticist age is drawing to a close, not because of anything that we have done or said - which would have had little effect anyway - but because of what America is turning itself into.

That latter process is inevitable and irreversible, despite the fantasies of some who pop up on here and at similar venues. That simple reality should lead to the obvious conclusion that America’s problems are not ours, and neither are its solutions. I have long counselled that MR should be focusing its efforts on European matters and not simply provide a yet another playpen for American “White Nationalists”, which is unfortunately the all-too predictable outcome of GW’s awkward ecumenicalism. Beneath all the banter, I am simply doing my humble bit to redress the balance.

 

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 08, 2012, 01:15 PM | #

@Dan

I totally agree - America is on the cusp of post-Western status - the fantasy politics of somehow that fate being prevented by imminent ecological collapse, the rise of neo-Nazism or whatever is not useful nor analytically worthwhile.

The UK has no influence on that process in the USA. I have mentally accepted we are moving into a post-Atlantic world. That is why I have became much more interested in European politics and societies in recent years.  I have always called myself an ethno-communitarian European patriot - emphatically not a WN. We are Europeans not Americans. John Coltrane was an American but he could not be a European. No-one from the American side has ever answered the ‘Coltrane’ question - why or how is he not a genuine American?

As for the MR as playpen comment - it’s right - MR has happily had house-room for far too many oddballs - obsessed to the point of total and utter irrationality by the tribe - along with the costume politics idiots and esoteric buffoons. They are seriously deflationary to any serious and substantive discussion of anything that matters. Moreover when serious political matters are discussed - for example see my communitarianism thread - all those people can do is jabber about POMO or shout ‘gay’ or ‘J-lizard’ - it’s pretty pathetic juvenile stuff.

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Posted by daniel on March 08, 2012, 02:37 PM | #

I may share your insistence upon standards of discourse, and I have seen much in recent threads that was crude and uninformative. However, that does not only emanate from Americans, plenty of crude stuff is coming from the British. More, the ‘Americans’ here are neither quintessentially American nor exemplary.

On the other hand, some of the more serious minded posts, while grammatically correct, fairly logical and showing respect for erudition, can be self indulgently long - distracting from the topic and not all that informative either.

I cite the examples of Haller’s posts 66 and 67 - Not bad, but I really did not learn anything new.

Ok, he is still a student, just embarking on a graduate program. I should add that I am an ex-patriot living in Europe, so you know where my heart lies and that I am hardly uncritical of The USA. Nevertheless, one aspect of America that does tend to be good is its graduate schools. We had professors visiting us from Oxford and other places in Europe and I would say in all honesty that the American professors were quite good.

I expect you to have a vital concern for the category of the English, Scottish, etc. I would not respect you if you did not. Of course you will have more concrete knowledge of your situation and know where the shoe pinches for you - there are some local topics to which foreigners cannot contribute much.

However, I must disagree with the characterization of our problems as incommensurate.

We share very similar if not highly comparable concerns. I would take it farther and claim that they are indeed related.

Personally, I do not like the word “White” either. I would prefer to exchange it for the word European, having it understood that it means persons of indigenous European extraction wherever they are in the world.

It should not do away with the categories, English, Scottish, etc. On the contrary, it should become one means to enforce them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 08, 2012, 03:39 PM | #

@Daniel

Of course there are many well-educated, erudite and intellectually insightful Americans - who would suggest otherwise? I myself quoted Robert Bork not that long ago in a comment. Rather in this context it’s more the need to move beyond banality and ‘easy answers’ endlessly repeated (the echo chamber of American WN cliché) - which if you have being watching MR in recent months is a move very bitterly opposed by many from the tin-foil/esoteric/costume politics crowd - many of whom are definitely Homo americanus.

And trust me that the ‘Anglos’ are quite capable of giving chapter and verse the follies of life and politics on ‘the Isles’. From the pathetic and delusional nonsense of the ‘special relationship’ to contemporary culture etc., the UK in the post-war period is, on balance, the most degraded society in western Europe. Life in general is noticeably more civilized on the continent - compare a typical day in Rome or Barcelona with London for example. I for one, say if America is a bad example, then the UK, in following the American way, is a not very good example either. I’m a bit of an admirer of the Nordic world myself. They top the index of human development and welfare for a reason - even if they are far from perfect.

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Posted by anglo-frenemies on March 08, 2012, 03:42 PM | #

With friends like these, who the fuck needs COINTELPRO!?

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 08, 2012, 05:00 PM | #

Posted by daniel on March 08, 2012, 02:37 PM | #  “I have seen much in recent threads that was crude and uninformative”. Daniel, a large slice of that was me. Please accept my apologies. After this post I will bury my PS3 controller ten feet underground in my garden and go back to lurking and learning. I would just like to say though, that the difference between lurking and taking active participation is vast. Many of us have not had decades of stimulating intellectual engrossment to help chip off those rough edges of either radical, or radically unenlightened thought. Just a tiny little bit of space needs to be left open for the less uber intellectual of MR followers to participate in an effort to start smoothing those rough edges.

After all, any comments wildly off the mark will get ignored or deleted anyway, and that is part of the learning process. Speaking as someone who one week ago had never commented online before, but has now gained experience and confidence in this and started commenting elsewhere. As well as having learned how to link to source material, picked up advice on a decades worth of essential future study, received a “Well said Leo, I concur fully” from GW, and even learned now, (hopefully) how to split my text into paragraphs (not easy on a PS3). I can only thank you all, and in particular GW, in the sincerest of possible terms for showing a level of tolerance, patience and understanding. I would urge you to continue to keep the door, just slightly, ajar.

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Posted by Josey Montana on March 08, 2012, 05:17 PM | #

Kievsky, a brilliant insight as always.  Thank you for taking time to publish it for us!

Hard to imagine being on the same side as Hunter these days, being of Damn Yankee extraction.  But here I am.

A larger point, often applicable, to sites such as MR and etc.:

I wager most posters here, and the contributors for that matter, are under 35 years of age and their life experience is almost certainly vicarious.

You just can’t amass the sheer volume of lunacy except to cram before examination week.

The first error is to mistake some egghead’s theories, often the theories of a deranged maniac such as Nietzsche but not always, for actual life on earth.  It’s almost like reading the review and deluding oneself that you actually attended the concert.

The second error is derivative.  Take the usual UK/Euro assumptions of “America” for instance.

What the fuck do you people mean by “America”?

Do you mean the original continent named for a famous Italian navigator?

Do you mean the United States of America, a trade association of numerous American states?

Do you mean the people that inhabit the continent?  Or jsut those that inhabit the territory included by the USA?

Or is America high concept?  PR?  Buzz?  A vague notion of fat rich whiteboyz who remind you that your grandfathers were ... What?

How about a reality check?

In the usual sense, you people, and most of our own eurotrash Huddled Masses and Wretched Refuse, mistake US citizenship for being “American”.  Well, it is a class 1 error.  American is an ethne all its own, an oversight almost incomprehensible at the haplotypic MR!

Secondly, America really means the land occupied by the original British colonies, some of which were even British until just before American Independence.  The rest of our states aren’t really American so much as they are “USA-n”.

You see, there is a vast distinction between the federal government we call the US and the actual people we know among ourselves as Americans.  But why should euros understand when almost none of our own eurotrash immigrants understand and confuse the two without care?

Thirdly, the North American continent is gigantic.  I don’t think you posters here adequately gasp the geography.  New York to LA might as well be London to ... Moscow.

So to speak of the “American nation” as though nation were a synonym for ethne is an astounding act of propaganda.  There is no “American nation” and has not been for perhaps 150 years, certainly not since the late 20th C. and even then, What makes you think Sicilians and Polacks can become Americans (in the original sense of American-British) anymore than they can become English gentlemen post-Maastrich?

Absurd.

Having said all that, Hunter is quite right.  The Africans, Mestizo Amerinds, etc etc. are concentrated almost exclusively in Los Angeles and Southern California, Texas, and New Jersey.  They are largely contained and seldom venture forth except for criminal gain or their own sight seeing.  The eurotrash
Ellis Islanders are found in a smear from New York to Philly westward to Chicago.

Pax Hunter, “liberal” New England is so White—and so “Anglo”—I myself have spent weeks there without seeing a single dego, let alone a jigaboo.  I can see the Philadelphia skyline from a hill nearby to my home, albeit in the distance.  I cannot tell you the last time I have seen a minority outside the shopping malls and McD’s drive-through window.  If I tour Pennsylvania’s inner, I might not see a minority the entire time and if I do, he certainly “understands” the game and the score and is on best behavior.

Now, for the pedants ready to pounce, sure there are numerous and growing exceptions.  But even the Huddled Asses of the US midwest understand what is at stake, but as recent eurotrash peasants, they really lack the wherewithal to do much about it.

So let me summarize it for the kiddies:

The US of A is in big trouble—by our own standards, not yours.  Frankly, it would please me as a descendant of the Pilgrim Fathers and New York Huguenot-aristocrats if the federal government would collapse just as the USSR collapsed.  WE WILL BE FINE.  Hell, we’ll be much better off for it.

But “America”—which means we whose families were invented it 400 years ago and created the USA for our own purposes, not yours, is in “Not Bad” condition.  Could be better.  Could be worse.  But WE are doing O.K.

As for California?  Who the hell cares?  They have as much to do with my life as does our distant cousin from the Highlands.

As for New Jersey?  Well they are more immediate but socially and metabolically, they are also irrelevant.  Should matters get out of hand in the Trenton Police State, there are but six or seven bridges connecting them to Penn’s Woods.  Friends of mine, who are apparently very meticulous planners, assure me those bridges will not be a problem for more than a few hours should matters deteriorate.

So, get your heads out of your asses.  Instead of studying Nietzsche study some girl’s face while you’re making her happy to be a woman.

Leave the 19th C. lunatics and 21st C. irrelevancies for old men ... after their kids are grown.

Captcha hit98 The year of my MBA.  It was a very good year.

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Posted by daniel on March 08, 2012, 05:19 PM | #

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 08, 2012, 05:00 PM | #

I have seen much in recent threads that was crude and uninformative”. Daniel, a large slice of that was me. Please accept my apologies

I have not noticed you being a menace, uKn Leo - not crude and uninformative.

In my opinion it is a better idea for people of various stages of learning to contribute.

While some hard joking and criticism is good, some that I have seen is probably too rough - in some cases, serving no real function - just a nuisance.

I don’t remember all of your posts but I found you to be rather good natured and helpful

 

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Posted by Leon Haller on March 08, 2012, 05:54 PM | #

On the other hand, some of the more serious minded posts, while grammatically correct, fairly logical and showing respect for erudition, can be self indulgently long - distracting from the topic and not all that informative either.

I cite the examples of Haller’s posts 66 and 67 - Not bad, but I really did not learn anything new.

Ok, he is still a student, just embarking on a graduate program. I should add that I am an ex-patriot living in Europe, so you know where my heart lies and that I am hardly uncritical of The USA (Daniel)

Daniel,

I am probably older than you. I graduated from one of the best Ivies in the late 80s, and went on to earn law and business degrees from one of the best universities in my home state of CA, which I attended for various financial, professional, and personal/familial reasons (ie, I had been accepted into a couple of even more prestigious JD/MBA programs, but they were back East, and after college and some years in NYC, I didn’t want to live there anymore). I worked professionally in business (only briefly in law) for over a decade and a half, until returning this past Fall to a doctoral program in what might be called “Catholic Studies” (it isn’t exactly, but I have no desire to be visited by neo-Nazis looking for recruits for their costumed rallies). Of course, I haven’t exactly not read anything of humanistic or political value in the years between college and Fall 2011. (Until you give persuasive evidence to the contrary, I suspect I have read more than you, including on matters relevant to the typical subject matter of MR, your VOR work or whatnot notwithstanding.) So your imputation that I am “still learning” (well, in the most basic sense, I am, and hope to continue to be for all my life!) is ridiculous and unwarrantedly condescending, esp for someone (unless you are “danielj”) who has not been here at MR much over the past several years, when I have often commented extensively. My posts speak for themselves. 

I’m glad you find my posts @66-67 “not bad”. They were not in the least “distracting from the topic”, unless you mean Kievsky’s original post. I was responding to others’ comments as the thread had evolved. As to lacking informative content, well, if your comments @127-131 (what I noticed from a skimming of the thread) are meant to comparable favorably to mine in that regard, please ... sit quietly in the back of the class and learn a few things.

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 08, 2012, 06:13 PM | #

Posted by daniel on March 08, 2012, 05:19 PM | #  [Thanks daniel]

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 08, 2012, 06:19 PM | #

Mr. Montana

I think most people use America and the USA as interchangeable terms – yes the USA is very regionally diverse – Minnesota, Texas and NYC are differentiated from each other – no-one with any knowledge of the USA can deny that.

But what are you suggesting – the imminent break-up of the USA? You all did once have a civil-war to prevent such an outcome if I recall correctly. What probability would you assign to the break-up of the Republic in say the next 25 to 50 years?

I’m actually writing an essay against Nietzsche – he’s really a hyper-liberal individualist at heart. I much prefer Aristotle on the whole.

As for the old MBA – well with all due respect isn’t that a form of anti-education? Only joking Leon!

@uKn_Leo

Please do continue to comment - it’s refreshing to have new people – a ‘well-done’ from me for joining the conversation. No-one knows everything so there is always scope for each and everyone of us to learn more – only the most arrogant and delusional would claim otherwise. What isn’t helpful is constantly smearing people with different interpretations etc., as members of ‘the tribe’ or ‘controlled opposition’ etc., that conduct is seriously deflationary in every way.

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Posted by Trainspotter on March 08, 2012, 06:39 PM | #

“John Coltrane was an American but he could not be a European. No-one from the American side has ever answered the ‘Coltrane’ question - why or how is he not a genuine American?”

A good question is one that goes to the heart of a matter, and I’d say yours qualifies. 

I still vividly remember a conversation with a friend at a high school party.  This friend was by no means a fan of political correctness or of blacks in general, but he said something that at the time startled me, and that I’ve grappled with ever since.  He said, in essence, that blacks were not merely American, but integral to what “we” are as Americans.  He said “They are a part of us.”

You use Coltrane.  He used Aretha Franklin.  She’s part of what “we” are, part of what defines us. 

I recall embarking upon a grand monologue (or at least as grand as a somewhat drunk 17 year old could muster), covering the broad sweep of European history from Aristotle through the Founding, and then condemning my friend in Nietzschean terms.  Of course, the whole point of this display was to provide comedic/intellectual contrast for my coup de grace: calling him a nigger-lover.  Maybe you had to be there. 

After our laugh, his more comfortable than mine, we then went back to where the girls were in order to engage in more timely pursuits.  But the truth is he had rather deeply unsettled me because, more or less, he was right. At the very least he was on to something. Buzz killer. 

Of course I could quibble over the point.  After all, I do believe that there is such a thing as a White America.  I further believe that White America has developed many of the qualities of a particular ethnic group, though perhaps not enough of them.  Further, even the most ancient and well defined ethnic groups have suffered at least some cultural contamination, and often massive amounts.  And, regardless of what I believe, the historical record is replete with countless examples from the Founding and beyond that America was envisioned as a nation of and for whites.  No Brazil, we. 

But it just didn’t play out that way.  Now we plan to out Brazil, well, Brazil. 

There is a Black America too.  And, soon enough if not already, there will be other Americas.  That’s what happens when you bring in aliens and allow them to establish permanent colonies.  As time goes on, they becomes less alien, even as they may become more destructive.  This was America’s great folly, and more recently the folly of Europe (that and premeditated murder, but hopefully you take my point).

Identities are complex and often nuanced.  One can be white, an American and a Southerner, all while remaining comfortable in one’s skin and without apparent contradiction. 

None of this is to say that the non-whites have the right to devour us, to overwhelm us, to destroy that which we hold dear, to gradually breed us out of existence.  Such a conclusion would be sheer madness, as if the foolishness and greed of a few generations could rightfully condemn ancient peoples to destruction.  Life is its own justification, it requires no other.  Our people(s) must survive, and are morally correct in doing whatever is required to ensure that survival. 

The question, really, becomes under what banner shall our cause struggle?  What worldview will best achieve our aims?  Simply put: how do we frame this? Not just for our target audience, but for ourselves?

Do we posit ourselves as redeemers of America? Or, as the Confederates decided, that we don’t want to be Americans anymore?  Civil War or War of Independence, in the true sense of each? Control of the whole or secession from it?

Our comrades in continental Europe have a much simpler task in this respect.  The various white groups and their respective homelands are well established.  Of course one could quibble here too, but the broad sweep of things is pretty clear.  America is a different matter, and White America must come to terms with its distinct circumstances.

There is just something about time immemorial, going back to the foggy mists, without census or record, where the scribblings of history give way to vague impressions of dark forests and grim hunters.  Europeans have that in a way that America doesn’t, and can’t.  Too many damn records.  Too much is known, and not enough. 

I’ve grappled with the implications of that drunken conversation for over two decades now. I didn’t want to abandon the American banner. I really didn’t; it still bothers me a bit, and I’m not even sure that I’ve fully done it.  But intellectually and increasingly emotionally, I think it is the right course.  It must be Civil War for Europe.  It must be a War of Independence for us. Control and cleansing against all comers, versus secession and going our own way. 


“America the Proposition” does not belong entirely to us, in fact it works to undermine us every day.  Neither does America the living, breathing nation. 

We were Europeans long before we were ever Americans.  It was the people who settled the country that made it great, not any silly proposition. Whatever the proposition, had the land been settled by Chinese or Africans, it would be no country of ours.  Blood is thicker than water…and propositions too. 

All of this is not to say that whites under a different banner might not justly reclaim the entire continent for our exclusive habitation at some point in the distant future, just that it won’t be under the banner of Americanism. 

Even when we look at the racial aspects of the Founding, as brazen as some of the facts surrounding it were, it is easy to miss the real point.  The racially conscious white population was already racially aware long before the Founding.  The distinction between white and black had long since been drawn.  Whites in what would become the United States had already developed something of a distinct white identity well before the Founding, even if only in embryonic form. 

While the United States was founded by racially conscious whites, that was not the BASIS of its founding.  It was not the primary reason for the revolution, complaints about savage Indians (or was it Indian savages?) aside.  What emerged as the United States was a child of the Enlightenment, with all sorts of propositions that are a mere stone’s throw away from policies that would result in the racial degradation and destruction that we see all around us today. 

It didn’t take long for these nutty and crackpot propositions to make themselves felt in destructive movements both here and abroad.  By the early to mid 1800’s the quacks were in full bloom, laying the intellectual foundations for the horror show that we now live in.  More often than not, they waved an American flag while seeking to destroy the founding stock.  On the other hand, the forces that resisted them predated America - a crucial distinction. 

Point is, what is good about this continent - beyond much natural beauty - is the white stock that exists upon it.  That white stock was healthier, and its culture healthier, BEFORE they became Americans.  The racial aspects of the Founding, therefore, derived from what we were before we were Americans, not from the Founding per se.  Not from becoming Americans. 

This leads me to a conclusion that I would have prefered not to draw: that which was good about America largely preceded it in origin, and that which has turned out so badly can largely be traced to the idiot propositions which America spawned.  Therefore, to be a redeemer of America would mean, in essence, to redeem a host of silly Enlightenment derived propositions…propositions that are killing us, and enjoy the additional distinction of being laughably untrue. 

No thanks.  The Confederates may be have been defeated in the field, but they had the mentality right in at least one respect: they didn’t want to be Americans anymore. 

 

 

 

 

 

189

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 08, 2012, 06:48 PM | #

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 08, 2012, 06:19 PM | #  Ok, will do, thanks G_L. ideologically tendentious tendencies was me too and he was a bit cheeky. I was expecting a rocket from Leon H for stealing one of his lines, but I have survived my MR initiation thus far, unscathed and intact. 

Posted by Josey Montana on March 08, 2012, 05:17 PM | #  Quality, interesting and extremely encouraging post Josey. Am not sure what a jigaboo is but am damn pleased you don’t have to deal with them in your back yard. Be ready to blow those bridges though my friend.

190

Posted by Josey Montana on March 08, 2012, 06:52 PM | #

Graham,

Thank you for pertinent questions that fit well with Kievsky’s basic scheme.

The USA no longer serves a functional purpose.  Rather, as happens with large institutions, it is self-serving and exists merely to perpetuate itself.  I myself feel no obligation to it, neither do many of my friends, colleagues, family, neighbors, business associates or clients.  At the same time, those in its employ are increasingly “old world” in their outlook, what I laughingly call the Peasant Theory of Politics that states a peasant granted power will wield it the only way he knows:  savagely.

As one familiar with the inner workings of the USA’s gigantic corporations and governments, I see little to cheer a supporter.

So, wither USA?  Given all I have seen with my own eyes, from one coast to the other, in and out of Leviathan, over the course of almost five decades of thoughtful observation and reflection, I believe the institution called USA will continue so long as it wishes to continue.

As a practical matter, USA will be *internally* irrelevant within the next several years.  It is, as I crawl out on the limb, at its high watermark and frankly out of control even by Washington DC standards.  Too many dimensions are implicated and all are subject to sudden failure via asymptotic exhaustion or the most crippled of black swan events.

You see, no one gives a damn enough to resuscitate USA when it finally stumbles and crashes to the ground.  As a matter of pride, a remnant of nationalism by us residual old stockers, the name will persist as a sort of zombie-state.  But the individual states themselves are already prepositioning to fill the coming power vacuum.  New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts are all effectively mini-sovereigns anyway.  Pennsylvania and the other colonial states enjoy significant political “infrastructure”—not to mention US Army assets—to carry on without so much as a hiccough when fed-gov becomes irrelevant.

I actually hold a number of university degrees.  Per Haller one of my favorites is Ivy covered.  It may interest you to know my motivation for an MBA among them:  as a then small-businessman, it behooved me to understand my customers, not to mention the basics of business management.  Not surprisingly, both require keen and discerning observation of the human condition.  I learned more about *people* in two years of a very strong, very accomplished MBA program than in any other comparable period of my life, in or out of academe.  Marketing = political science as it happens in the real world; Finance = economics for men, not cartoon caricatures.  Management = psychology that actually explains why people do what they do.  All have strong predictive vigor.  I found it an excellent means of collating and organizing my own lifetime’s thoughts on our situation.  My academic master’s, to which I was invited to pursue the PhD, was simply fascinating.  Strike that, it was in every sense “fun”.  But it was also such rarefied information that, practically speaking, it has little use outside of a few very specialized environments pertaining to business organizational lifecycles.  It is akin to studies of dead lunatics with unpronounceable names.  But hell yeah, it was fun in the process.  The distinction being, unlike graduate studies in philosophy, this particular study paid a very handsome return on my investment in time and money.

The main benefit of an MBA (meaning from a top institution) is that it is “practical” in that all assertions and theories might be tested immediately and ruthlessly. 

Let me tell you—when your children’s well-being is at risk, your thoughts are clarified and focused as never before.  The breakdown of Wall Street is at least as correlated to the stereotypical “young and hungry” (and childless and rootless and smart and ambitious) quant or Master of the Universe looking to make a quick million or two ... without a personal care in the world.

Americans are nothing if not practical.  The Huddled Asses who came here and polluted out land with their peasants’ rough ways are not practical; they are dreamers, all too often frustrated in their dreams with an axe to grind.

We Americans will do whatever works, with or without the rest of the world.  Of that you can be assured.

Regards,
Josey Montana (a nom de plume as you might have guessed)

191

Posted by Josey Montana on March 08, 2012, 07:09 PM | #

uKn_Leo,

It is an old Philadelphia (and probably old New England) term for “those people”.  Sadly, little used today.  I think it derives from their universal love of dance, i.e., doing the jig.

And yes, there are millions of Americans—authentic Americans not US citizens who glomm on to our hereditary title of honor—who have taken positive steps to manage when the time comes.  No, we do not riot in the streets.  We do not go on general strikes.  We mainly sit and steam and prepare for the time we know is coming.  No sense in blabbing our plans and make it easy for “them”.

Some of “us” are even elites, but not enough of us.  This is the main operational deficit we face and why scholarly masturbation is a diversion we cannot afford.  We need plans, we need tactics.  Talking about what was does us little good, fascinating to it may be.

Josey

(Now off to play with my boys.  Might not see you all again for a while.  Life is good!)

192

Posted by uKn_Leo on March 08, 2012, 07:19 PM | #

Posted by Josey Montana on March 08, 2012, 07:09 PM | #  Ohhh, niggers. Gotcha, See ya J.

193

Posted by Josey Montana on March 08, 2012, 07:19 PM | #

G_L:  Nicomachean Ethics should be read every two or three years, in between The Gulag Archipelago and the old Prayerbook lectionary.

Rip him to pieces—enough have suffered under his name.

Josey

194

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 08, 2012, 07:54 PM | #

Could not the USA at the level of ideology (the American way) be thought of a hyper-liberal social-order that embodies the notion of a ‘nation of individuals’ embarked upon an open-ended venture in techno-economic innovation and socio-cultural experimentation?

As the Swiss-German author Max Frisch suggested it’s a view of life as an ever greater exercise in a type of therapeutic-technological omnipotence - the belief that everything is possible with enough will-power and technology – the conceptualization of human life as unbounded – life without limits.

In this context can we not recall Heidegger’s claim that Bolshevism and Americanism were but two sides of the same spiritual coin?

I think we are now getting some interesting comments on the USA - thanks both to JM and Trainspotter - excellent to move beyond XWPA et al., and the rah rah rah USA no.1 stuff.

Oh and on this idea - “Let me tell you—when your children’s well-being is at risk, your thoughts are clarified and focused as never before” - 100% agree!

I’ve driven in Trenton NJ late at night - let me tell you I would not want to repeat the experience! I recall before going across the pond getting one of those guides to living in the USA books - it had a section on crime saying most areas are very safe (especially outside of the large cities) but take the wrong turning into the wrong area and one is really seriously risking one’s life. I think we know the subtext.

On Nietzsche, well on balance, he is a thinker I do rather loathe so I’ll try my best!

195

Posted by Leon Haller on March 08, 2012, 09:18 PM | #

The USA is indeed becoming “post-Western”; but to what extent is that not true everywhere in the West (an honest and non-rhetorical question)?

We are being transformed demographically. But white Americans have also been substantially dispossessed of their historic ethnoculture, too. And that goes for all regional variations: every year white America becomes both more homogenized within itself (I have friends from many parts of the country; quite beyond our shared whiteness, we’re really very similar attitudinally and behaviorally, the only exception being that the New Englanders and New Yorkers are more liberal than the Southerners), as well as more influenced if not infected with nonwhite cultural attitudes and degraded habits. In what sense beyond the racial is “Eminem” a white man?

The problem is that nonwhites only seem to assimilate superficially and structurally (not psychologically and affectively) with white majoritarian culture, whereas whites do seem to be able to ‘assimilate downwards’. Perhaps we might say that white culture is humanly dominant, but sociobiologically recessive (yes, mixing taxonomies), in an analogous manner to our biology.

That’s poorly said. I’m tired, help me out. 

Whites genes I’m told are genetically recessive. Yet despite this obvious evolutionary inferiority, in many ways, we are biologically superior. We are (or were) more intelligent, and that biological faculty enabled us to be evolutionarily more successful at expanding our ecological niche and our numbers (and we’re certainly a better looking race on average - another genetic aspect). We’re losing today mainly due to ideological changes, themselves rooted in a complete postwar upheaval in Western racial ethics, and the moral status of communities of blood (I mean within white civ; nonwhites, of course, are allowed, even encouraged - and by whites, no less! - to preserve their ethnocultures).

Similarly, our cultures and collective civilization are clearly the world’s best. And yet, as one bad apple spoils a barrel, it seems that Western High Culture requires coercive support - that many whites, upon exposure to aesthetically shallow negritude will prefer it to the arduous appreciation of their own organic cultural products. As bad money drives out good (though only within a fiat system, Richards, if you’re reading this; under a free market in money it would be exactly the opposite), so it seems dysgenic culture drives out High Culture.

Man by nature is a proletarian. Civilization is therefore a hard and precious thing. Thus our movement used to be described as “aristocratic racial nationalism”, and, while I do favor European ethnonationalism both as a political strategy for white preservation on the Old Continent, and because I treasure the cultural products of Europe’s diversity and would hate to see the old fatherlands culturally homogenized, that designation certainly applies to me (my preferred term is “biological Occidentalism”, but it amounts more or less to the same thing). 

I see no way (absent plague or exterminatory warfare) in which the USA will not become post-Western, even if it continues to contain a very large white minority for a long time. Of course, there are crises, and they create political possibilities. As various white states (and there will likely still be hugely white majority states for quite some time, absent what I call the Omega Option, or more familiarly, Camp of the Saints problem: a nonwhite President and Congress start importing overnight VAST numbers of nonwhite refugees into the country, in which case both the country and the politics could change rapidly) come to realize just how much they are overcontributing to the Federal fisc (yet another reason for white Americans to be very pro-limited government, very libertarian outside of the immigration issue: we disproportionately pay for socialism, nonwhites disproportionately benefit from it - a lot of anticapitalist WNs can’t seem to understand this), they may start secessionist rumblings or even movements. If one or more are successful, then a rump-state New America might still endure as a part of the West for some time, especially if it enacts very strong policies on immigration and border controls. Certainly we may think of white neighborhoods in Cape Town as part of Europa.

The dewesternization of America, however, augurs very ill for Europe. With your collapsing internal demography, huge nonwhite Fifth Columns, and proximity to the exploding populations of the Middle East, Maghreb and Sub-Saharan Africa, who will defend you in the future? At the very least, Europe is going to have to relinquish its totally unviable welfare states (something you were warned about for decades, by both conservatives and libertarians, as well as the more intelligent nationalists, like Powell), and broader welfare or ‘creature comfort’ mentality, and restore real capitalism in order to trigger the labor productivity necessary to rebuilding powerful, technological militaries.

I’m honestly unsure as to which whites - Europeans or Americans - are in worse long-term shape. I do think that European nationalists have the greater opportunity to win back their homeland(s). But I really wish you’d get on with it! Sooner or later Europe will be faced with either a Muslim military assault, or an African and Maghrebi demographic one. Are you prepared to survive? Will you have the means? 

196

Posted by Dan Dare on March 08, 2012, 10:35 PM | #

Sooner or later Europe will be faced with either a Muslim military assault, or an African and Maghrebi demographic one. Are you prepared to survive? Will you have the means? - LH

I don’t believe that either of those contingencies will ever come to pass, however there is no room for complacency.

The key to Europe’s future, in my view, is early disengagement from the Atlanticist credo, and putting the foundations in place for a Festung Europa based on continental autarky and military strength.

The basic building blocks are all to hand, even the necessary framework in form of a European Union, all that is missing is the necessary vision and political will to commence construction.

197

Posted by GenoType on March 08, 2012, 11:39 PM | #

Herr XWPA appears to passed over, accidentally I’m sure, the role played by Swordfishes in the sinking of the Bismarck. Other efforts could be cited, but there seems little point. - Dickless Danny

Just as the furiously Googling Dickless Dan accidentally, I’m sure, passed over the signature accomplishment of the Swordfish in sinking the Italian Conte di Cavour at Taranto Port?  Hardly. XPWA is an honest man.  Dickless Dan is not.

Let us examine the role played by nine obsolete Fairey Swordfish biplanes in the sinking of the Bismarck.

Day One:  Failure to locate Bismarck.
Day Two:  Swordfishes mistakenly attack the HMS Sheffield.  The Bismarck is finally located by an American exchange officer piloting a Catalina flying boat.
Day Three:  Bismarck’ rudder is damaged by one of two Swordfish torpedoes.  The King George V and Rodney are ordered away and the rudderless Bismarck is sunk by three cruiser Dorsetshire.

Impressive!

Of course the Swordfish was technically obsolescent at the outbreak of hostilities (even the gormless Brits realised that) - Dickless Danny

Pigheadedly stubborn, intransigent, intellectually lazy, and lacking the flexibility of Americans, Germans, and Japanese, they were. 

Of all aircraft regarded as anachronisms the Fairey Swordfish torpedo-bomber must be the supreme example, for even back in the 1930s it appeared archaic and cumbersome. Stemming from an earlier design whose prototype had crashed, the first prototype Swordfish (the TSR.II) first flew on 17 April 1934 and the production Swordfish Mk I was prepared to Specification S.38/34 with slightly swept-back top wing; construction was all-metal with fabric covering. By the outbreak of war in 1939 a total of 689 aircraft had been delivered or were on order, serving with both wheel and float landing gear aboard Royal Navy carriers, battleships, battle-cruisers and cruisers in the torpedo-spotter reconnaissance role. Among the memorable events in which the old ‘Stringbag’ participated was the action at Tarante on 11 November 1940, when Swordfish aircraft from HMS Illustrious severely damaged three Italian battleships; the crippling of the Bismarck in the Atlantic; and the suicidal attack on the German warships, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen during their famous escape up the English Channel in February 1942. Production of the Swordfish was undertaken largely by Blackburn, the Swordfish Mk II being introduced with a strengthened lower wing to allow eight rocket projectiles to be mounted, the Swordfish Mk III with ASV radar between the landing legs, and the Swordfish Mk IV conversion of the Mk II with a rudimentary enclosed cabin. Production ended on 18 August 1944, by which time a total of 2,396 Swordfish had been completed.

198

Posted by Leon Haller on March 09, 2012, 01:04 AM | #

Question for non-WN Euronationalists:

If and when you have recovered your homelands, and if and when the USA crumbles, are you going to allow white immigration; ie, the return of the colonials?

I could honestly see European nationalists forgetting all we Americans have done for their continent (something that good Atlanticists like Churchill and Thatcher and Kohl and Walensa never would), and actually banning all immigrants, including white ones (and especially white Americans), so as to preserve the weird fiction that they are only ethno-communitarians, and not dreaded racists, which is what we all should be (at least to the extent of recognizing that all whites take precedence over all nonwhites in any apportioning of aid or sentiment).

199

Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 01:14 AM | #

Daniel,

I am probably older than you. I graduated from one of the best Ivies in the late 80s,

Maybe you are a little older and your undergraduate was probably a little better than mine

and went on to earn law and business degrees from one of the best universities in my home state of CA, which I attended for various financial, professional, and personal/familial reasons

Fair enough


(ie, I had been accepted into a couple of even more prestigious JD/MBA programs, but they were back East, and after college and some years in NYC, I didn’t want to live there anymore). I worked professionally in business (only briefly in law) for over a decade and a half,

Read world experience counts for a lot.

until returning this past Fall to a doctoral program in what might be called “Catholic Studies” (it isn’t exactly, but I have no desire to be visited by neo-Nazis looking for recruits for their costumed rallies).


Apologies for the misunderstanding - it is rather unusual to pursue a doctorate at your age.

Of course, I haven’t exactly not read anything of humanistic or political value in the years between college and Fall 2011. (Until you give persuasive evidence to the contrary, I suspect I have read more than you, including on matters relevant to the typical subject matter of MR, your VOR work or whatnot notwithstanding.)

You probably have read more than me, probably even on matters typically discussed on VoR


So your imputation that I am “still learning” (well, in the most basic sense, I am, and hope to continue to be for all my life!) is ridiculous and unwarrantedly condescending,

I said it on the basis of a few examples. It was disrespectful in the context of who you are as opposed to who I thought you were. But you left youself a bit open to criticism with your claim that you should have cleared away all problems here with those few posts.  That was a bit condescending of you, as well.

esp for someone (unless you are “danielj”) who has not been here at MR much over the past several years, when I have often commented extensively. My posts speak for themselves.

I am not DanielJ. I have not been here long. 

I’m glad you find my posts @66-67 “not bad”.

Yes, they were not bad.

They were not in the least “distracting from the topic”, unless you mean Kievsky’s original post. I was responding to others’ comments as the thread had evolved.

I was not only talking about your example among those posts that are long and tangential to the original topic.

As to lacking informative content, well, if your comments @127-131 (what I noticed from a skimming of the thread) are meant to comparable favorably to mine in that regard, please ... sit quietly in the back of the class and learn a few things.

I disagree with you. Those posts are relevant to the situation in terms of coordinating matters between English, Scottish and other persons of European descent, in native lands - their particular survival and well being - together with the managed survival and well being overall.

I can tell that on some issues, I have thought through, or digested matters, more to my satisfaction than you have - volume of words is not enough, not even volume of erudition.

It happens at times - I have a sister, for example, who passed her NY and New Jersey Bars on the first try. She has plenty of wealth and real world success. She can do things that I cannot, is certainly more respectable and smarter in some ways than I am. On other topics, she really does not have much to teach me.

I don’t know why you are taking up Catholic studies but E. Michael Jones seems to do pretty well in spite of that.

There are two problems in that, however - Christianity and a tendency to sidetrack the race issue. That is not what is needed.

Perhaps you are in a position where you are too much in need of respectability. That can be a liability to our struggle.

On the other hand, I can agree with you about the importance of distancing from the Nazi admiration - in my opinion, it is not even good for German nationalists to defend Hitler and co. too much.

And I do apologize. I took to using your example because I had mistakenly thought you were younger. I should have been a bit more careful.

 

 

 

 


 

 

 

200

Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 01:24 AM | #

Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 01:14 AM | #

Daniel,

I am probably older than you. I graduated from one of the best Ivies in the late 80s,

Maybe you are a little older and your undergraduate was probably a little better than mine

and went on to earn law and business degrees from one of the best universities in my home state of CA, which I attended for various financial, professional, and personal/familial reasons

Fair enough


(ie, I had been accepted into a couple of even more prestigious JD/MBA programs, but they were back East, and after college and some years in NYC, I didn’t want to live there anymore). I worked professionally in business (only briefly in law) for over a decade and a half,

Real world experience counts for a lot.

until returning this past Fall to a doctoral program in what might be called “Catholic Studies” (it isn’t exactly, but I have no desire to be visited by neo-Nazis looking for recruits for their costumed rallies).

Apologies for the misunderstanding - it is rather unusual to pursue a doctorate at your age.

Of course, I haven’t exactly not read anything of humanistic or political value in the years between college and Fall 2011. (Until you give persuasive evidence to the contrary, I suspect I have read more than you, including on matters relevant to the typical subject matter of MR, your VOR work or whatnot notwithstanding.)

You probably have read more than me, probably even on matters typically discussed on MR

So your imputation that I am “still learning” (well, in the most basic sense, I am, and hope to continue to be for all my life!) is ridiculous and unwarrantedly condescending,

I said it on the basis of a few examples. It was disrespectful in the context of who you are as opposed to who I thought you were. But you left yourself a bit open to criticism with your claim that you should have cleared away all problems here with those few posts.  That was a bit condescending of you, as well.

esp for someone (unless you are “danielj”) who has not been here at MR much over the past several years, when I have often commented extensively. My posts speak for themselves.

I am not DanielJ. I have not been here long.

I’m glad you find my posts @66-67 “not bad”.

Yes, they were not bad.

They were not in the least “distracting from the topic”, unless you mean Kievsky’s original post. I was responding to others’ comments as the thread had evolved.

I was not only talking about your example among those posts that are long and tangential to the original topic.

As to lacking informative content, well, if your comments @127-131 (what I noticed from a skimming of the thread) are meant to comparable favorably to mine in that regard, please ... sit quietly in the back of the class and learn a few things.

I disagree with you. Those posts are relevant to the situation in terms of coordinating matters between English, Scottish and other persons of European descent, in native lands - their particular survival and well being - together with the managed survival and well being in diaspora and overall.

I can tell that on some issues, I have thought through, or digested matters more to my satisfaction than you have - volume of words is not enough, not even volume of erudition.

It happens at times - I have a sister, for example, who passed her NY and New Jersey Bars on the first try. She has plenty of wealth and real world success. She can do things that I cannot, is certainly more respectable and smarter in some ways than I am. On other topics, she really does not have much to teach me.

I don’t know why you are taking up Catholic studies but E. Michael Jones seems to do pretty well in spite of that. 

There are two problems in that, however - Christianity and a tendency to sidetrack the race issue. That is not what is needed.

“Catholic Studies” (it isn’t exactly,

Ok, perhaps you are in a position where you are too much in need of respectability. That can be a liability to our struggle.

On the other hand, I can agree with you about the importance of distancing from Nazi admiration - in my opinion, it is not even good for German nationalists to defend Hitler and co. too much.

And I do apologize. I took to using your example because I had mistakenly thought you were younger. I should have been a bit more careful.

201

Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 02:03 AM | #

I graduated from one of the best Ivies in the late 80

Correction: on the basis of that, I’d say you are probably a bit younger than I.

202

Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 02:20 AM | #


As to lacking informative content, well, if your comments @127-131 (what I noticed from a skimming of the thread) are meant to comparable favorably to mine in that regard, please ..


Yes, they compare favorably to yours. Especially when taken together my other posts here and elsewhere.

You are still wrestling with issues that I have digested.

I will say, however, that it takes all kinds.

It may in fact be the best thing that you infiltrate the Catholics and engage in a tedious moral debate about repatriation being morally warranted. The Catholics are, after all, highly responsible for immigration in many instances.


In one answer to your struggling over the matter of our “genetic inferiority”..

We are a more sublimated people than Africans, for example. That accounts for our better way of life.

I have explained how this, and a somewhat less masculine version of men are important to our way of life and intellectual well being. I have discussed how this situation came about that female predilections became over-valued.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

203

Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 02:28 AM | #

...sublimation is not the only reason for our better way of life, but it is a very under-acknowledged part of it.

Interestingly, it may have played a critical role in preparing the way for superior i.q. - but that requires scientific verification, of which I am unaware.

204

Posted by Leon Haller on March 09, 2012, 05:33 AM | #

Daniel,

Thanks for the replies.

So your imputation that I am “still learning” (well, in the most basic sense, I am, and hope to continue to be for all my life!) is ridiculous and unwarrantedly condescending,(Haller)

I said it on the basis of a few examples. It was disrespectful in the context of who you are as opposed to who I thought you were. But you left yourself a bit open to criticism with your claim that you should have cleared away all problems here with those few posts.  That was a bit condescending of you, as well. (Daniel)

Not really. I did not claim that I

should have cleared away all problems here with those few posts(Daniel)

I only stated this:

I tried to inject a bit of sense to this thread @66-67, but evidently failed.(Haller)

That hardly qualifies as a grandiose claim to clearing up difficulties (though I do think some of the claims as to the allegedly irredeemably liberal nature of America are overdone, if not overwrought, and one of my posts did try to show that that interpretation, while not wholly unsubstantiated, is not dispositive).

I failed to inject sense as the posts mostly went unnoticed, while the shouting continued.

Apologies for the misunderstanding - it is rather unusual to pursue a doctorate at your age.(daniel)

Your apology is accepted, as it is indeed unusual for a man in his 40s to return to doctoral study, so your inference was not unwarranted (but that was not my real objection to your reference to me).

Yes, they compare favorably to yours. Especially when taken together my other posts here and elsewhere.

You are still wrestling with issues that I have digested.

I will say, however, that it takes all kinds.

It may in fact be the best thing that you infiltrate the Catholics and engage in a tedious moral debate about repatriation being morally warranted. The Catholics are, after all, highly responsible for immigration in many instances.(Daniel)

The second post you referenced was intended specifically to stimulate Dr. Lister’s thinking. A sensitive reading of it would not have suggested that I am necessarily unsure of how to answer these questions, merely that I am asserting they do require answers (among WNs they aren’t even usually asked; moral philosophy is not WN’s strong suit).

Having said that, of course I am still wrestling with these questions - as are many here. Why shouldn’t we be? They are foundational. The rot, after all, goes very deep, intellectually as well as ‘on the ground’. Refusal to countenance the group rights of our own white peoples seems to be a kind of meta-ideological (even psychological) white trait, possibly the dominant one of the age. Without wishing to be self-congratulatory viz our movement, we are challenging our world’s defining outlook, the one point (“white ‘groupism’ is bad”) on which everyone seems to agree. That you feel as though you have “digested” (ie, satisfactorily answered) these issues may thus constitute an unintentional intellectual self-indictment.   

Re the Catholic angle. I am a Catholic, albeit an intellectually openminded one. Had I been raised in the faith of my not too religious Lutheran father, I might have pursued study in that tradition. My reason for return, beyond realizing the mistake I made early on in not pursuing an intellectual career right out of university (which in retrospect would have been my preference, and for its own sake, not only its relevance to aiding my development of an ethics of white survival), was to obtain a thorough scholarly grounding in intellectual Christianity. Beyond intrinsic interest, I chose this field of study because I wish to contribute to Western survival, and firmly believe that the white race will not endure until the moral triumph of white anti-racism is successfully challenged, and overturned. And, I must add, first, I don’t think this has been done adequately, and second, I don’t believe in secular ethics (I am of the old-fashioned “No God, no ethics” school), and thus feel that ethical philosophy must be closely integrated with Christian (for me, again, Catholic) theology.

Thus, my long term scholarly goal is to produce, inter alia, a substantial tome on Racial Ethics, starting from Christian/Catholic theology and building out a moral argument justifying what I have taken to calling “the hard measures required to ensure white perpetuity (aka, the 14 Words)”. Those hard measures consist specifically in a willingness to risk genocidal warfare in order to racially cleanse Europe. Beyond expelling illegal aliens, few Christians today (the past was a different matter, of course - and thank God!) would think it acting in the Spirit of Christ to demand and enforce the expulsion of recalcitrant, legally resident nonwhites from Europe. I aim to demonstrate otherwise, that it is not only morally allowable for Europeans to repatriate nonwhites, but actually morally mandatory, despite the hardships involved (which of course Europeans ought to mitigate as best they can). Doing so is a much larger project than it may at first appear.

As a Catholic I think a mass return of whites to a racially ‘renovated’ version of our ancient faith is desirable in itself. I also think it necessary both to ensure the survival of the West (understood in a civilizational and not merely racial sense), as well as to put us back on a path of civilizational ascendance. Finally, I even believe that a mass return to some or all variant(s) of Christianity is necessary to the perpetuity of the biological race itself. That is, quite apart from the relation of Christianity to Occidental quality, I don’t think that a non-religious Europa, even after a series of new WN revolutionary victories, will survive for very long - a few generations at most, once the revolutionary fervor has worn off.

Why I think this will have to be developed another time.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 06:15 AM | #

I do think some of the claims as to the allegedly irredeemably liberal nature of America are overdone, if not overwrought,

I agree. Some of the characterizations of America and Americans are lame. There are many brilliant people in America as well.


The second post you referenced was intended specifically to stimulate Dr. Lister’s thinking. A sensitive reading of it would not have suggested that I am necessarily unsure of how to answer these questions, merely that I am asserting they do require answers (among WNs they aren’t even usually asked; moral philosophy is not WN’s strong suit).

Not saying you and others shouldn’t, just a point of fact that I have thought about some of these things at length.


Having said that, of course I am still wrestling with these questions - as are many here. Why shouldn’t we be? They are foundational. The rot, after all, goes very deep, intellectually as well as ‘on the ground’. Refusal to countenance the group rights of our own white peoples seems to be a kind of meta-ideological (even psychological) white trait, possibly the dominant one of the age. Without wishing to be self-congratulatory viz our movement, we are challenging our world’s defining outlook, the one point (“white ‘groupism’ is bad”) on which everyone seems to agree. That you feel as though you have “digested” (ie, satisfactorily answered) these issues may thus constitute an unintentional intellectual self-indictment. 

No, you can read my older essays (or not, if you’d prefer not to) and see that I have considered these things and have digested them enough to make general sense.


Beyond intrinsic interest, I chose this field of study because I wish to contribute to Western survival, and firmly believe that the white race will not endure until the moral triumph of white anti-racism is successfully challenged, and overturned


Again, I have addressed these issues and more radically than anyone I have seen thus far.



And, I must add, first, I don’t think this has been done adequately, and second, I don’t believe in secular ethics (I am of the old-fashioned “No God, no ethics” school), and thus feel that ethical philosophy must be closely integrated with Christian (for me, again, Catholic) theology.

I disagree with this and believe that quite the opposite is true - that Christianity will lead to our demise. If I could do away with two figures in the struggle for European survival it would be Hitler and “Jesus Christ” - the latter, not because I believe morals are unimportant. Just the opposite, we need better considered morals than that - not a morality based on archaic texts.

I tried to be respectful of Christianity. I was in fact. Raised a catholic in the sense that I went to church on sundays with my parents and sunday school…After having given it a second chance in my early twenties, in search of “the true Christianity”, I came to the position that it was insufficient to dealing with life’s issues as they are now. However, I prided myself on not being too hard on Christians noting that secular folks can be just as obnoxious.

I must say, however, and regrettably, that lately I am losing my patience for Christianity, almost as much as for Hitler.

justifying what I have taken to calling “the hard measures required to ensure white perpetuity (aka, the 14 Words)”


Here we can agree - as I see the 14 Words as a sufficient core for a new and organically formed religion.

I aim to demonstrate otherwise, that it is not only morally allowable for Europeans to repatriate nonwhites, but actually morally mandatory, despite the hardships involved (which of course Europeans ought to mitigate as best they can). Doing so is a much larger project than it may at first appear.


I wish you well in this project. Our objectives are the same, anyway. Even if our aims are different.


As a Catholic I think a mass return of whites to a racially ‘renovated’ version of our ancient faith is desirable in itself.


I have come to the position that Christians, of whatever denomination, are trying to do the right thing - that is, they are trying to invoke a moral order. A moral order is indeed imperative, but I believe Christianity is insufficient to that end.


I don’t think that a non-religious Europa, even after a series of new WN revolutionary victories, will survive for very long - a few generations at most, once the revolutionary fervor has worn off.

I agree. There needs to be a transcendent realm.

And as I have said in a few places now, the 14 Words functions (for me, anyway) quite well in that regard, as the core of a moral order for Whites. I see the 14 words as transcendent, capturing the systemic pattern of Whites - a transcendence which is necessary because, lets face it, most Whites are not very good and all are insufficient in aspects. Thus, transcendence allows for the capturing of the ameliorative whole. A guided perfection against the vicissitudes of circumstance, a telos. At the same time, the 14 words are palpable and practical - that is important that they are also be grounded in reality and sense. Moreover, they work well for White women - that is important. Finally, lest we get caught up in historical details of limited relevance - they provide future orientation - our children, the true life hereafter.



 

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Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 06:23 AM | #

correction:

I wish you well in this project. Our objectives are the same, anyway. Even if our aims are different.

I meant to say, even if our “means” are different

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Posted by Lurker on March 09, 2012, 07:29 AM | #

GT - until the last few days I had always respected you as a commenter here, I normally stay pretty quiet on here, I respect the free-speech rules that apply, anyone can say anything. But with all this Swordfish crap you are just coming across like the sort one finds venting in Youtube comments.

Let us examine the role played by nine obsolete Fairey Swordfish biplanes in the sinking of the Bismarck.

Yes, only nine. Kind of puts it perspective, not many of them actually in use.

Day One:  Failure to locate Bismarck.

Im not sure how the specific aircraft type affects the failure to locate a ship in the North Atlantic, a rather large body of water Im sure you are aware. Perhaps the Swordfish was not equipped with windows? I guess no American piloted aircraft ever failed to locate a target at sea, how lucky for them. Oh, except thats not even true is it.

The Battle of the Philippine Sea the money quote:

American searches failed to locate the Japanese fleet until 15:40.


So, although hundreds of carrier aircraft were available it took them over half a day to find the Japanese fleet. Fleet not just two ships, a whole fleet. Perhaps these were British pilots in Swordfishes on loan to the USN, yes that must be the explanation. Though of course the Swordfish had been withdrawn from frontline duty by that stage - for two years.

Day Two:  Swordfishes mistakenly attack the HMS Sheffield.

Well at least we can relax on this one. US aircraft have never been involved in friendly fire incidents. Ever. Though how the type of aircraft dictates whether a friendly fire incident takes place Im not entirely sure.

The Bismarck is finally located by an American exchange officer piloting a Catalina flying boat.

Phew. Thank goodness for the American eyeball, genetically superior to all others! Again, Im not yet clear on how the type of aircraft used affects the vigilance of the crew. Thats one for the aviation medicine boys to explain. Strange that the stupid Brits were happy too use the Catalina though. I was under the impression that British aviation in WW2 relied upon biplanes.

Day Three:  Bismarck’ rudder is damaged by one of two Swordfish torpedoes.  The King George V and Rodney are ordered away and the rudderless Bismarck is sunk by three cruiser Dorsetshire.

Er yes? Sounds like a successful resolution. And thats a reflection on the Swordfish how? I was under the impression that Navy wanted to finish the kill in a traditional way, to keep those new fangled fly boys out. Is that your criticism?

That would have been about the last frontline action for the Swordfish anyway were it not for the Channel Dash engagement in 1942. Where only six, yes six were used. Though in a parallel universe they were the mainstay of torpedo bomber operations for the entire war.

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 09, 2012, 07:59 AM | #

Off topic but what do the Americans here think of Ron Paul?

I kinda like the cut of his jib - at least he doesn’t want to spread ‘freedom’ around the world at the end of gun. Nor forever fund Israel out of US taxpayer dollars. Those are two plus points, yes?

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Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 08:25 AM | #

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 09, 2012, 07:59 AM | #

Off topic but what do the Americans here think of Ron Paul?

I kinda like the cut of his jib - at least he doesn’t want to spread ‘freedom’ around the world at the end of gun. Nor forever fund Israel out of US taxpayer dollars. Those are two plus points, yes?


Ron Paul is a libertarian, that is an objectivist/individualist.

He represents one side of a game that Jews know well how to manipulate.

It is decent that he wants to take America out of wars and foreign entanglements. Well and good that he would audit the fed. However, he is not strong on immigration control. Moreover, his adherence to The Constitution is obsolete - that will only accidentally serve some Whites, temporarily at best - and will be far more destructive to Whites than not. His objectivism and focus individual liberty is a positive detriment to the White race. These are the kinds of things that got us into trouble in the first place.

His kind of politics are either naive or disingenuous.

Elite Jews and White traitors would be rubbing their hands together, ready to clean up if Ron Paul or someone like him got into office

If there was a chance he could be elected, then there would be some reason to vote for him as the lesser of the evils. But since there is not a chance of his being elected, there is no use in devoting much hope in his deracinated politics.

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 09, 2012, 08:43 AM | #

True Paul has many faults - but perhaps less than some of the other creeps that are on the scene. None are pro-actively good options.

It’s true that whatever way Americans vote they cannot vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs can they?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNrZrcaMNMI

The best democracy money can buy.

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Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 08:56 AM | #

It’s true that whatever way Americans vote they cannot vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs can they?

Right. They cannot.

Paul’s theoretical purity, his right wing “innocence”, is no match for organized Jewish influence in

1. Banking

2. Politics

3. Law/The Courts

4. Media

5. Academia

6. Religion

 

 

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 09, 2012, 09:10 AM | #

Off topic again - sorry - Leon has the concept of haecceity or quiddity came up in your studies so far?

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Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 10:40 AM | #

business… medicine.. victimology..


Joking a bit…sorry about that. I am not a one (Jewish) causer either.

carry on..

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Posted by Dan Dare on March 09, 2012, 10:54 AM | #

Lurker - I wouldn’t waste too much ink on Comrade GT. He already showed his true colours in an earlier thread when he demanded to know how many aircraft Luftwaffe flak regiments had had at their disposal, claiming also that the Allies used nerve agents in WW I and then launched into an extended Kut ‘n’ Paste about gaseous cyanide only to end up with further egg on face.

He’s a clown, ignore him. He and his oppo XPWA are the cyber equivalents of Mutt and Jeff.

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Posted by Hyman in Afula on March 09, 2012, 11:14 AM | #

daniel >>>However, he is not strong on immigration control

  But he’s not running on a platform plank of non-enforcement, either.  Congress ultimately writes the laws. I don’t see Ron Paul wanting to =veto=  some strong border-enforcement (as in shoot to kill, which is what it takes) law.  I believe that for Ron Paul, immigration is a tertiary issue. He’s said out loud that illegal immigration is a result of a problem, not an cause. Or maybe you believe that we Hebrews write his impromptu one-liners during debates?

      >>> Moreover, his adherence to The Constitution is obsolete - that will only accidentally serve  
      >>> some Whites


wow, can I quote that?  I wonder what percentage of Americans will start saying that Jews/Blacks don’t need to leave, but rather - the folks who don’t want to live under rule by the US Constitution.

“Pioneering Little Europes” already has that sorta furr-in sound to it - kind of like saying that part of US territory should get converted into Aztlan, or whatever it is that those faux Aztecs are calling for.  Hey, they entered North America from a lot closer than y’all did!!

Every member of the US armed forces and of the federal civil service has sworn an oath, so help him/her God - to protect and defend the US Constitution.

Wanna bet that they would follow orders to shoot you?

Ron Paul will liberate the Israel Army by forcing it to be self-reliant. Yasher Koakh!!

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Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 11:51 AM | #

Posted by Hyman in Afula on March 09, 2012, 11:14 AM | #


Every member of the US armed forces and of the federal civil service has sworn an oath, so help him/her God - to protect and defend the US Constitution.


Wanna bet that they would follow orders to shoot you?

They probably would.

Yes, and for whatever perverted interpretation of The Constitution that is rendered for them.


Or maybe you believe that we Hebrews write his impromptu one-liners during debates?

No, but…ok. I don’t want to repeat myself. I don’t think he will win so it is not very relevant. Go vote for Ron Paul and good luck.

 

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 09, 2012, 04:53 PM | #

Leon – No God, no ethics? Perhaps but it seems a very strong claim indeed.

On what basis do we found morals and ethics? – I’m kind of a quasi-realist (I think Simon Blackburn is quite interesting on this topic see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-realism), plus a virtue ethics person of some sort I suppose, but think that moral choices are highly context specific - highly sensitive to initial conditions so to speak, so not easily captured in very generalised rule-based notions such as ‘never lie’ – such general rules miss the highly nuanced nature and particularities of human life – their resolution are simply too coarse and unfocused to work well. Why should philosophical fundamentalism like Kantianism be preferable to the religious sort? In an odd way Kant is anyway just a very convoluted account of the Golden Rule.


Ultimately life is the highest value for it is only in being alive that we can even start to develop and exercise our moral and ethical capabilities. It seems obvious to say but everything is grounded upon physical existence – mere ‘brute’ life. A vigorous ethos of life would be my starting point. Perhaps another related question is the one posed by Camus et al., – why not commit suicide? An answer to such radical existentialism might be as good a starting point as any for formulating a moral theory. Perhaps life must be understood as a precious gift – of either the blind watchmaker of natural selection - or of the divine (perhaps the latter via the former?) – but a gift so valuable it is not to be squandered or surrendered in either an individual or collective act of care-free abandonment.

But I’m tired and it’s been a long week so the above is probably not all that coherent or interesting.

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 09, 2012, 06:00 PM | #

Brief summary on the American theme:

Are there not two broad and, at some level, inter-dependent forces that are seriously undermining the nation-state? On the one hand, globalization of financial and commodity markets is undermining the capacity of the state to steer socio-economic life – neither tariff walls nor welfare arrangements generally seem able to avail against the pressures of the global free-market and the logic of market exchange in all things. The other, ever-increasing immigration and the rise of multi-culturalism, are threatening to dissolve the ethnic homogeneity of nations in the West – the great migration of people into societies without the legitimate or democratic consent of the indigenous peoples into which they are moving – is a set of historical processes that have grave risks attracted to them. Traditional life-worlds, ethical codes, socio-cultural practices and protections – all of which are proxies for a people and their particular ‘form of life’  -  face being first ‘hollowed-out’ (creating societies that are maximally heterogeneous - so diverse that they are left wondering what holds them together), then ultimately disintegration, under the radically expansive dual formation of super-modernity and hyper-liberalism.

I happen to think the USA is the Western nation by far the most far-down this road and has the least politico-cultural resources (ideological or political imagination in the broad sense) to resist such transformative forces – in part because it embodies those destructive forces so thoroughly in its own values and form of life.

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 09, 2012, 06:05 PM | #

sorry typo - attached not *attracted* 

Damn ‘auto-correction’ on my word processor!

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 09, 2012, 06:26 PM | #

OK found this on the ethics of immigration:

Debating the Ethics of Immigration: Is There a Right to Exclude?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Debating-Ethics-Immigration-There-Exclude/dp/0199731721

Two philosophers discuss the divide between ‘communitarian’ and ‘cosmopolitan’ models of rights and obligations.

Maybe someone might like to read and review it?

I don’t have a copy - just it was mentioned in this fairly awful LRB article on the cost/benefits of immigration in the UK.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n03/jeremy-harding/europe-at-bay

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Posted by daniel on March 09, 2012, 07:16 PM | #

It’s Friday night and I’ve had a few beers but am going to send this off anyway:

Graham_Lister on March 09, 2012, 06:00 PM | #

Brief summary on the American theme:

Are there not two broad and, at some level, inter-dependent forces that are seriously undermining the nation-state? On the one hand, globalization of financial and commodity markets is undermining the capacity of the state to steer socio-economic life – neither tariff walls nor welfare arrangements generally seem able to avail against the pressures of the global free-market and the logic of market exchange in all things.

I imagine rather that tariff walls and especially welfare arrangements, among other coordinated things,  could be a large part in correcting the problem. I.e., get the Jews (and I hate to say it, the White women that’ve been perverted) out of the way, and we might just have in place a large part of a manageable system.


The other, ever-increasing immigration and the rise of multi-culturalism, are threatening to dissolve the ethnic homogeneity of nations in the West – the great migration of people into societies without the legitimate or democratic consent of the indigenous peoples into which they are moving – is a set of historical processes that have grave risks attracted to them.

I like attracted too. It is not the time to think what the liberals care for, but what we, the White separatists do. We have not forgotten about your home, Scotland. This is not something to relinquish. This is sacred. This is an a achievable plan.

See those planes that the other guys are talking about? They are flying over your land, on our behalf and moving the instransigents out - do you know how smart the Scots are? I do. Why would we sacrifice their people and land for anything? What for?

Those were subtle words about Cant - half Scots, half German, no?


Traditional life-worlds, ethical codes, socio-cultural practices and protections – all of which are proxies for a people and their particular ‘form of life’  -  face being first ‘hollowed-out’ (creating societies that are maximally heterogeneous - so diverse that they are left wondering what holds them together), then ultimately disintegration, under the radically expansive dual formation of super-modernity and hyper-liberalism.

They gotta go. It will be understood.

I happen to think the USA is the Western nation by far the most far-down this road and has the least politico-cultural resources (ideological or political imagination in the broad sense) to resist such transformative forces – in part because it embodies those destructive forces so thoroughly in its own values and form of life.
220

I’m not sure about negativity toward the White people of America (the media is misrepresenting them too) - they can be pretty good. But there are advantages and disadvantages to their situation. They do not have the profound claim to soil that Europeans have. However, they still have their senses and can see the difference of non-Whites. Moreover, I am sure that there are a great number of American Whites who care about their own, their European progenitors and lands.

Posted by Graham_Lister on March 09, 2012, 06:05 PM | #

sorry typo - attached not *attracted*

Damn ‘auto-correction’ on my word processor!
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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 09, 2012, 06:26 PM | #

OK found this on the ethics of immigration:

Debating the Ethics of Immigration: Is There a Right to Exclude?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Debating-Ethics-Immigration-There-Exclude/dp/0199731721


There is the right to exclude. It is based on bio-diversity, for one thing. Obnoxiously, Duke acts like he invented the concern, but many others have been thinking of it for decades.


Two philosophers discuss the divide between ‘communitarian’ and ‘cosmopolitan’ models of rights and obligations.


I have some thoughts on communitarianism, but they may be pedestrian. I have seen it among the literature for some time now and it does not give me the willies quite as much as anarchy, but almost…

I would explain why…

Maybe someone might like to read and review it?

I don’t have a copy - just it was mentioned in this fairly awful LRB article on the cost/benefits of immigration in the UK.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n03/jeremy-harding/europe-at-bay

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Posted by GenoType on March 09, 2012, 08:31 PM | #

He’s a clown, ignore him. He and his oppo XPWA are the cyber equivalents of Mutt and Jeff. - Dickless Danny vDare (And about as effective)

Slimey as jellyfish you are, Danny boy. 

You accused XPWA of “posing” for briefly mentioning his service in Desert Storm.  “Bad form,” you said, because he mentioned it one time in hundreds of posts made over the course of five-six years.  If he hadn’t mentioned his service and if I hadn’t mentioned his multi-engine qualifications, you/others would have accused him of lacking expertise.  You know it.  I know it.

XPWA’s service included years as an analyst at the highest levels.  Not only did he do Desert Shield/Storm and Central America ops before that, but two full Ranger tours in Vietnam.  Not talk about it?  He’s the quiet one.  Most vets never stop talking.  Library shelves groan with thousands of volumes of vets “not talking” about their military service.  Lewis B. Puller Jr, the guy “who never quit,” wrote 400 pages of “not talking about it” in Fortunate Son prior to committing suicide.  Schwarzkopf didn’t talk for 500 pp plus.  Churchill founded his entire literary career on “not talking about it.”  Bad form?  You’re a fucking piece of shit. 

His lackey am I?  Sounds good in cyberspace, but none of you worthless, out-of-shape, averse-to-physical-work pieces of shit would say this to my face.  Or his.  He’s my brother and comrade, scumbag.  Yes, I would definitely say that to your face.

“The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn’t help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn’t help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn’t remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day.”

“Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck.” - AH

Uncle Adolf’s comments are as relevant to many/most sons of “Perfidious Albion” as they are to jewry.

 

 

 

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 09, 2012, 09:13 PM | #

G_L - Off topic question query - I have been hanging out a bit on Kievsky’s site and I am pasting something he is talking about there, here. “What can work is economic relocalization. Economic relocalization deprives corporations of profits and government of tax revenues, because everyone is bartering among themselves. With this high tech world, we actually could do this. We just don’t out of habit. So we need to teach people new habits.We must starve the Beast, and thrive while doing so. I believe we can do this by using existing technologies in ways that reduce our expenses and thus our dependence on the System”.

I would be interested in your thoughts, G_L or anyone. Kievsky is talking about things like bartering, and I guess things like credit unions, developed locally, for the good of the community, but with the added bonus of kicking ‘the man’, squarely in the nuts. Now, surely he is seriously onto something here. I just searched online for what currently exists in my area, Plymouth, south Devon, and it’s minimal. Maybe 1 credit union, and some small scale bartering on a nationwide site called U-Xchange. SW Devon is property/skills rich, but relatively cash poor. Plymouth has a weak economy with many deprived areas, no likelihood that will improve anytime soon. There is still a level of community cohesion here, much like Scotland G_L which is why I’m particularly interested in your input. 

I would see this area as fertile ground for just such an initiative. Local small businesses were advertising on UXhange, just as a quick idea of a revenue generator. I cannot see how this would work, from a racial perspective. But I am excited by the general concept. Every pound kept away from the taxman after all, has got to be a pound very, very well spent. Curious on anybody’s thoughts.

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Posted by GenoType on March 09, 2012, 09:23 PM | #

Also more or less my impression of you and your lackey. How many years have you been screaming about “microcommunities”? How many microcommunities have you actually organized? Shut the fuck up and do it. If it works as you say it will work, you will have plenty of imitators. Whereas in your years of posting here you’ve accumulated zero followers beyond the one you brought with you. - General Disorder

This may shock you, but we’ve never been interested in money or accumulating a “following” among racial reactionaries.  Our intent was to point in a direction well traveled, successfully, by others with leadership ability and less public persona.

The fact is my family does have a growing “microcommunity.”  This particular name, by the way, is one I selected.  Communities similar in concept are known by other names.  Should I advertise the community’s location along with my real name?  What do you think, “General”?  Real names in this are for homosexuals, the tenured, and dividend/pensioner type without families.  Now I’ve also been accused of vagueness.  Should I prepare a business plan and “how-to” book for the MR crowd?  Nope.  Real leaders interested in what I’ve written investigate it and develop their own business plan and “how-tos.”  A lot of these people are out there.  We communicate with them electronically and in person.  Not among racial reactionaries, unfortunately, for these types lack the vision and courage to do much beyond cashing their checks, weighin’ in at reactionary forums, and dying of heart disease or diabetes.  It could be that you folks were never worth our effort.  Ever consider that?  We have.  So, we’ve indicated the general direction.  Our attitude is, take it or leave it.  You’ve chosen the latter.  No skin off our backs.

————-

Lurker,

I’ve respected most of what you’ve written, as well.

But,

“Don’t piss down my back and call it rain.” - Josey Wales

Your “deconstruction” is silly.  I won’t bother to counter it.  Or, for that matter, anything else by Dickless Danny vDare, Dr. Gayham Eigenvector, etc.

The Fairey Swordfish was obsolete going into the war.  It’s accomplishments weren’t noteworthy.  That’s pure hype and propaganda, written by the war’s winners, and intended to make the Brits feel good about themselves despite having been outclassed by almost everybody else - including the Japs.  The Brits continued manufacturing the Swordfish up until the very moment of war because they obstinately refuse to listen to “inferiors” - especially if those “inferiors” are Americans.  End of story. 

 

 

 

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 09, 2012, 09:54 PM | #

I cannot see how this would work from a racial perspective - should read - I don’t know how this could work, from a racial perspective.

Genotype @ 8.31   You and XWPA are like the old man equivalent of big mouth American kids playing Call of Duty on their X-Boxes. It’s embarassing. You should learn to realise when you’re being trolled.

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Posted by Lurker on March 09, 2012, 10:38 PM | #

GT - OK, lets not talk about aircraft anymore, certainly not from 70 years ago.

My concerns really are the present and the future how to avoid and overcome the snares of the enemies of Europeans, of whites, whether they are in America, Europe or elsewhere. You wont find me on MR, or anywhere else, bitching about Americans (unless you include my outburst yesterday), Germans or Irish any other white group.

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Posted by Silver on March 10, 2012, 12:46 AM | #

GT/XPWA had not the slightest recollection of the day before, they rattled off their same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; they couldn’t remember a thing, except that they had proved the correctness of their assertions the previous day.”

Fits like a glove. 

Clearly, there’s nothing peculiar to Jews in the behavior Hitler observed.  And really, can anyone honestly claim to have encountered a more obstinate political shitbird than the ideological nazi?

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 10, 2012, 04:40 AM | #

@uKn_Leo

Local credit unions, etc., - yes good ideas but I don’t know much about this form of community based activism but Chris Hedges has mentioned them in the US context.

@Silver - yes neo-Nazi’s tend not to be the most coherent types do they? In fact they are only consistently unpleasant and stupid.

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 10, 2012, 09:04 AM | #

Thanks G_L. On the case.

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Posted by Leon Haller on March 10, 2012, 09:54 AM | #

His lackey am I?  Sounds good in cyberspace, but none of you worthless, out-of-shape, averse-to-physical-work pieces of shit would say this to my face. (GT)

How do you know MR regulars are out of shape or work averse? I’m a bit overweight, and eat and drink too much, but I exercise a lot, and am not at all out of shape in terms of doing manual work.

And what do you know about Dan Dare, or any of us? I grant that there is a correlation between large size, as well as toughness (and certainly machismo), and lower IQ, so we may plausibly surmise that some of the better persons here might not be the baddest dudes in the neighborhood.

But there are plenty of guys who are big and smart. One law review guy in my school was HUGE, tall, very muscled (big bones plus a lot of lifting). This guy was much bigger than I am, and I’m on the bigger side (6’3”, 210-215 lean).

Anyway, your evident bad temper will ensure that your “microcommunity” remains micro.

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Posted by Graham_Lister on March 10, 2012, 10:30 AM | #

GenoType is probably suffering from ‘roid rage’ Leon.

I do actually own a modest set of weights and an exercise bike - one has to fight the early onset of middle-age ‘spread’ but beyond any effort needed for health reasons I’d much rather spend my spare time have a stimulating conversation, or reading an essay on Oakeshott, reading some Houellebecq, eating good food with family and friends, going to a good concert or to the theatre etc., than spend hours upon hours in a gym.

Does that make me a ‘worthless piece of shit’?

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Posted by Dan Dare on March 10, 2012, 12:06 PM | #

Steroid or negroid, Graham? Perhaps both?

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 10, 2012, 05:04 PM | #

This comment thread is from a site called Reddit. If you don’t know about Reddit, I think you should. It is, on the whole, dominated by young ‘uns, average age maybe 22-24. It is kind of like facebook (not sure, I don’t use facebook) but for a more educated crowd. It is a discussion/debate/knowledge sharing site where every issue imaginable is dissected by tens of thousands of users. This particular thread was about US emigration.

I am not posting it as a continuance of the UKvsUSA flame war here. But more as an example of the kind of cooperative exchange of ideas and experiences that is underway amongst the younger generations, enabled by the internet. 

              http://www.reddit.com/r/IWantOut/comments/qp0qk/im_just_curious_why_do_so_many_usians_want_to_get/c3zgnyj

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 10, 2012, 05:19 PM | #

Just one quick example of US/UK co-operation/collaboration. This time in the field of entertainment.

[ DISCLAIMER:  a)  This clip will NOT be to everybody here’s tastes, but that is not the point.  b)  No jews were harmed during the making of this post.  c)  Jigaboo @ 2.25. ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyX-Mjaq8Hk

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Posted by Lurker on March 10, 2012, 06:28 PM | #

Reddit is nothing like Facebook whatsoever, HW did suggest we go on there and ‘poison the discourse’. A good idea I thought but few others seemed to bother and HW seems to have lost interest. I do still go on there from time time time. If you enjoy 1000 white liberals and hasbara shouting you down there is no better place to go!

If we are going to be active on Reddit it might be more constructive if we were to act in concert on Reddit, on hot button stories.

Which is the whole idea of having the Thread Wars, er, thread here at MR.

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 10, 2012, 06:49 PM | #

Will look at the thread wars link in 2 secs Lurks. Aye, you’d need a million man army to invade reddit. Those young ‘uns positively ooze liberal brainwashing. Reddit political can be interesting to monitor the wide scale despair out there, and reddit science can have some good info and debates. They do a good job of monitoring government attempts at internet censorship. And there are lots of pictures of kittens, er, if you’re, er, into that kind of thing. But yeah, is 90%pish.

I just wanted to point out to some of the ‘ol fellas that this international exchange was going on. The fact that the thread I linked to was all about UK good, USA bad, was purely 100% coincidental Lurks, I assure you.

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 10, 2012, 07:04 PM | #

(Started looking at Thread Wars, thanks Lurker. Just remembered something - I found out about Reddit through using JimmyR which is more a tech heads and science site than social flim flammery. Might be worth a look for you).

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Posted by Lurker on March 10, 2012, 07:10 PM | #

If you see a good thread on Reddit post it in Thread Wars, there is a permanent link on the top left of MR. Dont think there are any Reddit threads there so far.

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 10, 2012, 08:17 PM | #

Will do Lurker. Very rare to non existent for them to touch anything non pc, let alone racial, though. You’d have young ‘uns around the world passing out at their keyboards by the thousand if they were exposed to MR style content. Their programming runs deep Lurker believe me. In my experience it takes months of work to get even one young ‘un to start questioning what they’ve been taught. Every whitey cracker assed honkey under 30 yrs old in Europe/US should be up in arms, furious, apopleptic with rage by now about what’s being done to their future. But there’s barely a murmur from them.

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Posted by Lurker on March 10, 2012, 10:36 PM | #

Leo - there are often threads we can insert ourselves into or start ourselves. There are a few of our guys active on there that Ive come into contact with. Might be an idea to liost their usernames on here. The point being on Reddit that comments and stories can get voted up and down. Getting more votes for our content makes it more visible on there.

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 11, 2012, 01:39 AM | #

I never really thought about joining in there Lurker for these main reasons. It’s so over the top pc - pro gay - equality - support our troops unquestioningly - corrupted - chicks by the thousand getting their kit off for the world to see -  debased - full of pussies - nerds - tossers - wierdos - young’uns that should be out living it, not sat inside on a computer - attention seeking fucktards - general fucktards - far too many students/college kids - too middle classy (gotta have PC and broadband to be on it) - - - My comments would be aimed at all these soppy, needy, over sentimental little pricks, I would recieve downvotes by the million and anything I said would be seen by no one and a waste of time.

There is dissent to a certain degree ie support for the Occupy movement /legalise drugs, their favourite being cannabis/support for Anonymous/opposition to the police/police state. But zero attention on subjects like jewish influence, freemasonry, economics, media control, big stuff that really matters, and I am hugely suspicious of their absence. I would be more than happy if I was one of the ‘elite’ watching this go on. Countless millions of hours wasted by redditards online instead of actually taking steps to change the things they whinge about. Reddit is distraction at best, controlled opposition at worst, and I would imagine heavily monitored by the feds, just like everything else online.

You could cause some aggro with loaded questions, debates, requests I guess. But most of what reddit stands for is the opposite of what MR stands for. Imagine sub reddit//white genocide or sub reddit//jewish political and media dominance or sud reddit//mossad did 9/11.The hive mind, in it’s quest for ‘socially acceptable’ (liberal) views/upvotes would get you ripped down in no time. MR topics are literally thought crimes for these non thinking, arrogant, brainwashed, smug, little twats.

I survey reddit, I monitor it, and use it as a tool. I’m looking for signs of real, free thought. Evidence of dissidence forming, stirrings of action, resistance. Quests for knowledge or information that’s outside the bounds of what they believe they are allowed to possess. And it just isn’t there. Stick in a picture of a cute puppy being run over by a dump truck, and there’d be squeals of outrage rippling across the globe. Stick in information about genocide being carried out on an entire race, and you’d hear a pin drop. I do like the kittens though. I have a bit of a soft spot for a picture of a fluffy, funny little kitten.

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 11, 2012, 01:45 AM | #

(or baby sloths, especially if they’re wearing pyjamas).

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Posted by Leon Haller on March 11, 2012, 07:46 AM | #

Beyond intrinsic interest, I chose this field of study because I wish to contribute to Western survival, and firmly believe that the white race will not endure until the moral triumph of white anti-racism is successfully challenged, and overturned (Haller)


Again, I have addressed these issues and more radically than anyone I have seen thus far.(Daniel)

Where, Daniel? Could you link to your best work in this area?

Re Christianity, we will have to agree to disagree. Recall I am an American, living in America. Even if we inhabit a Godless universe, WN (I use “WN” essentially as a euphemism denoting any pro-white empowerment politics) is not going to make much progress unless it has somehow aligned itself with, or at least ethically neutralized, Christianity. The number of white atheists in the US is dwarfed by the number of white Christians. (I think the Christians are expanding, too.) Moreover, it is a fact, one that you atheists simply need to deal with, that there exists a considerable overlap between conservatism and racialism, as well as between conservatism and Christianity. What I mean by these statements is that most racialist sentiment (anti-immigrationism, hardline on crime control and other issues disproportionately associated with nonwhites) is found amongst self-identified conservatives, and that most self-id’d conservatives are also Christians. I have also seen reputable data suggesting that those defining themselves as “Christian conservatives” (a huge portion of the overall Conservative Movement) are among the most hostile to immigration of any large political demographic.

Thus, in the American context, does it make strategic sense for WNs to be anti-Christian (even if the supernatural does not in fact exist)? Or is it wiser to attempt to ‘coopt’ or ‘neutralize’ the Christian response to the race problem (hence my reference to the “racial renovation” of Christian thought), by showing that, for example, it is not morally impermissible for a people (whites) to engage in racialist politics, or to support an end to immigration, or to remove multiculturalism from schools, etc? To me, based on my reading in history (say, the transition from the Roman Republic to the Empire, to take the most famous example), it is merely obvious that coopting existing forms of influence and power is more useful than challenging those forms head-on. 

 

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Posted by Leon Haller on March 11, 2012, 07:51 AM | #

Has anyone addressed my comment @198?

Posted by Leon Haller on March 09, 2012, 01:04 AM | #

Question for non-WN Euronationalists:

If and when you have recovered your homelands, and if and when the USA crumbles, are you going to allow white immigration; ie, the return of the colonials?

I could honestly see European nationalists forgetting all we Americans have done for their continent (something that good Atlanticists like Churchill and Thatcher and Kohl and Walensa never would), and actually banning all immigrants, including white ones (and especially white Americans), so as to preserve the weird fiction that they are only ethno-communitarians, and not dreaded racists, which is what we all should be (at least to the extent of recognizing that all whites take precedence over all nonwhites in any apportioning of aid or sentiment).

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 11, 2012, 09:12 AM | #

Posted by Leon Haller on March 11, 2012, 07:51 AM | #  Before someone steps in and answers your question properly Leon. At the moment there is a lot of cross Atlantic banter, Europe vs USA. This is largely imo because many Europeans (and Americans) are having their bubbles burst about what the US really is, and is becoming. There is despair about the direction the zog-USA is headed, but that despair is based on genuine concern for the American people who are largely seen as the unwitting passengers on a runaway rollercoaster. Many see US geo-political action as primarily self interested in focus, and could be forgiven for doing so. But that doesn’t mean that we have forgotten the role the US has played in rebuilding and protecting Europe post ww2 (amongst countless other positive things). Nor will we ever forget. Nor will Americans ever let us forget.

The way things are going in Europe it is inevitable that white nationalist political parties will rise to prominence here. Top of the ‘things to do list’ for those parties if they attain power - close the borders, whatever it takes, to non European descent immigration. I can’t envisage any circumstances where Americans of European descent wouldn’t be welcomed here with open arms. The people would just not stand for seeing their friends treated in such a way. It’s horrific enough sitting over here helplessly watching as California is over-run, racial attacks on whites seemingly sky rocket and the US turns into the Orwellian police state of everybody’s worst nightmare. If Europeans had the chance to actually do something about it, there is no doubt in my mind that the hand of friendship would be extended in any way necessary.

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Posted by Leon Haller on March 11, 2012, 09:45 AM | #

Off topic but what do the Americans here think of Ron Paul?

I kinda like the cut of his jib - at least he doesn’t want to spread ‘freedom’ around the world at the end of gun. Nor forever fund Israel out of US taxpayer dollars. Those are two plus points, yes? (Lister)

 

Ron Paul is a libertarian, that is an objectivist/individualist.

He represents one side of a game that Jews know well how to manipulate.

It is decent that he wants to take America out of wars and foreign entanglements. Well and good that he would audit the fed. However, he is not strong on immigration control. Moreover, his adherence to The Constitution is obsolete - that will only accidentally serve some Whites, temporarily at best - and will be far more destructive to Whites than not. His objectivism and focus individual liberty is a positive detriment to the White race. These are the kinds of things that got us into trouble in the first place.

His kind of politics are either naive or disingenuous.

Elite Jews and White traitors would be rubbing their hands together, ready to clean up if Ron Paul or someone like him got into office

If there was a chance he could be elected, then there would be some reason to vote for him as the lesser of the evils. But since there is not a chance of his being elected, there is no use in devoting much hope in his deracinated politics.(Daniel)

 

I like Ron Paul very much, even though my ‘beau ideal’ was Pat Buchanan (although at one point I did vote for David Duke for something).

I cannot agree at all with Daniel’s assessment. Yes, Paul is a libertarian, though technically he is a Christian Constitutionalist (not a libertarian strictly considered, nor an Ayn Randian “objectivist” at all). No, he is not good on immigration in the sense that he makes eliminating it part of his platform, nor does he dwell on it much, which is unfortunate. In one very important sense, however, he was the very best out there: he would change the current (corrupt) understanding of the so-called “birthright citizenship” clause of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, by which pregnant illegal aliens who sneak across our border and give birth produce “American” babies (who can then automatically bring their families into the country - is there a greater piece of political insanity? I do not know of it, nor want to), back to its original understanding as meant to apply only to native-born Americans (this was originally the most famous of the so-called Reconstruction Amendments, and was meant to ensure that ex-Negro slaves would be granted full citizenship rights). Changing this modern understanding is one of the chief goals of the immigration restrictionist movement.

Any type of WN politics would have ZERO chance of winning the White House (do you think otherwise, Daniel?). ZERO ZERO ZERO ZERO ZERO! It is possible that an anti-(legal)immigration Republican could win, with that as a major plank, but the arguments would have to be rigorously non-racial (there are many to be used, of course; I would emphasize unemployment and immigration’s contribution to growing income inequality and working-class wage declines since the early 1970s).

If I were advising Romney or others, I would indeed emphasize “comprehensive immigration REDUCTION”, to be achieved both by dramatically reducing numbers (from the current million-plus per annum, to say 100,000 or fewer annually - an absolute moratorium would trigger too much Cheap Labor Lobby opposition), as well as an end to family reunification as the chief immigration policy goal, and its replacement by a system favoring high value-added skills (these changes would make it easier for Europeans to immigrate)[nb: US WN immigration policy goals are: 1) deportation of nonwhite illegal aliens; 2) securing the US-Mexico border against illegal crossings; 3) elimination of “birthright citizenship”; 4) elimination of nonwhite legal immigration; 5) increase in white immigration.] I would also emphasize ending affirmative racism, which would bring in at least some white (and maybe a few CA Asian) independents (without much voter loss - few blacks vote GOP, and only very liberal whites, who would never vote GOP anyway, support affirmative action).

Opposition to immigration and affirmative action: that is absolutely the extreme limit of a possibly successful, overt “racial politics” (quotation marks because this is, after all, a very tepid agenda by our radical standards, one barely racial nationalist at all) that could still win the Presidency. Never forget that in addition to the nearly 40% of the nation that is either nonwhite or Jewish, there are millions of white liberals, and tens of millions of racially liberal ‘conservatives’. No overt WN will ever win the White House. The numbers aren’t there, nor will they be - ever.

The true battle to save the white race will be in Europe. The best American WNs can hope for is: 1) a more successful white empowerment agenda (pushing legislation that is “implicitly white”: eg, a nationwide felon disenfranchisement bill), and 2) an eventual racial secessionist movement leading to a sovereign white American nation-state carved out of the current 50 state territory. #2, The White Republic, will not happen without vastly greater white consciousness having been inculcated in White Americans, and #1 is a precursor and probably precondition of that.

But there are many preconditions to #1, and many of those involve passing legislation which protects white wealth from racial redistribution (as well as protecting gun rights). If whites are getting ever poorer, they will not be able to devote resources - money or time - to racialist activism. It is here that Daniel is massively wrong wrt the racial importance of a Ron Paul Constitutionalist. Libertarians are excellent on firearms freedom, as well as the defense of private property and business, including low tax rates. They are also good for protecting free association, and resisting “hate crimes” and “hate speech” laws. A pure libertarian society might not be racially optimum, but it would be much better for whites than our current liberal-totalitarian regime.

I shall vote for Paul in the CA GOP primary, and then for the GOP nominee in November against Obama.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Leon Haller on March 11, 2012, 09:57 AM | #

Lister @212

Leon has the concept of haecceity or quiddity came up in your studies so far (GL)

Very impressive that a scientist should be familiar with these terms!

Unfortunately, I have encountered only a passing mention of them so far. My program requires that I take a full year (2 courses) of Thomistic metaphysics (gasp!), which I will probably take next year, and I believe those kinds of concepts will be analyzed in depth then. I’m not looking forward to it. I’m ‘intellectual’ insofar as I’m interested in ideas and read academic books, but I’m really very pragmatic. I’m interested in political and ethical theory because I believe it affords a real structure which I can use to answer real problems today. I also believe progress in political philosophy and ethical philosophy is possible. I’m sceptical of progress in metaphysics, and I don;t see much practical usefulness to it. I suppose also that I must be a ‘second-rater’ philosophically, as the top people seem to coalesce in logic and metaphysics (maybe also epistemology, ontology and philos of mind and science). Cognitively, ethics and politics are towards the bottom of the philosophy totem pole. But they are the areas which interest me. 

 

 

 

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Posted by Gudmund on March 11, 2012, 10:06 AM | #

Off topic but what do the Americans here think of Ron Paul?

I kinda like the cut of his jib - at least he doesn’t want to spread ‘freedom’ around the world at the end of gun. Nor forever fund Israel out of US taxpayer dollars. Those are two plus points, yes?

Two very definite positives.  Unfortunately, he is unelectable.  I view this fact with great dismay because I cannot imagine why he should have less appeal, in a popular sense, than his obviously unprincipled electoral opponents.

Ron Paul is a man of character.  He has always stuck to his principles.  This has earned him the ire of some who label him an “ideologue,” although if he is that, I must say he’s a far more appealing sort of ideologue than the typical beltway neocon or liberal.

Perhaps it’s a testament to the bizarre and half-insane political temperament of America that someone like Paul, who seems to talk sense most of the time, is successfully labelled as insane or beyond the pale by the popular media to the extent that he is not a realistic option.

I will add that he has made quasi-racialist statements in the past that have come back to haunt him somewhat, and that he is an opponent of civil rights legislation which essentially removed freedom of association in favor of forced integration.  He would never be an authoritarian/nationalist politician, as he is too steeped in both Austrian economics and Yankee anti-statism, but he’s not actually that far removed from those who value white solidarity.  Certainly he would not ever act to impede such goals.

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Posted by Leon Haller on March 11, 2012, 10:15 AM | #

Lister@217-220

I have to do other things now, but I will try to come back to this tonight. I see where your ethics of immigration is.

Why be moral if either God does not exist, or He is powerless over you (eg, you have no immortal soul, which can be subject to punishment or damnation)?

Recall my saying to you some months or years back that ethics exist independent of God (as does logic and math), but only the existence of God justifies being ethical, imo. Without God, we are nothing more than self-aware animals, with residual but attenuated instincts. How ethical are animals? And can we even call purely instinctual behavior ‘ethical’?

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Posted by daniel on March 11, 2012, 02:22 PM | #

I cannot agree at all with Daniel’s assessment. Yes, Paul is a libertarian, though technically he is a Christian Constitutionalist (not a libertarian strictly considered, nor an Ayn Randian “objectivist” at all).

I said he was an objectivist. I did not say he was a Randian objectivist. I stand by what I said about him. I am also persuaded that Austrian School Economics are not what we need.

He is not going to be elected. Even if he had a chance, he would be the lesser of the evils for White nationalits, at best. There may be things about him and his followers that we need to study, but there is as much to learn about where he goes wrong as there is to what he does right.

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Posted by Lurker on March 11, 2012, 07:36 PM | #

I survey reddit, I monitor it, and use it as a tool. I’m looking for signs of real, free thought. Evidence of dissidence forming, stirrings of action, resistance. Quests for knowledge or information that’s outside the bounds of what they believe they are allowed to possess. And it just isn’t there. - Leo

Well there are the odd stirrings but we cant wait around for ever, we have to be those stirrings ourselves. Its nice to have somewhere like MR but its only by taking the debate into enemy territory that we can make some impact - maybe.

I comment on Reddit and I back up our guys when I come across them. A handful, two or three , commenters on there can dominate a thread. Sure we get a ton of downvotes sometimes but not everyone reading the thread is completely blind. If we can serve up a consistent interpretation we look like we know what we are talking about. They cant beat our arguments, they can only attack and fall back on emotional bleating. Thats powerful no doubt but amongst at least some of them must be the glimmerings of intellectual honesty. They know in their hearts when they lost an argument and some people reading it know too.

The average Redditor believes a liberal cartoon like version of reality, our job, at the very least is to disrupt their comfort zone.

Im here precisely because of being exposed to the views of nationalist, race realists commenters like GW on other blogs. Before that I was a believer in the standard left/right view of politics. If people dont even know there is another interpretation, well, we cant expect them to get there on their own.

Ive quoted this before on MR I think:

That one can convince one’s opponents with printed reasons, I have not believed since the year 1764. It is not for that purpose that I have taken up my pen, but rather merely to annoy them, and to give strength and courage to those on our side, and to make it known to the others that they have not convinced us.

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Posted by Lurker on March 11, 2012, 07:43 PM | #

I was just checking that quote and here is a slightly different version:

I ceased in the year 1764 to believe that one can convince one’s opponents with arguments printed in books. It is not to do that, therefore, that I have taken up my pen, but merely so as to annoy them, and to bestow strength and courage on those on our own side, and to make it known to the others that they have not convinced us.

Thats one of our jobs, online, face to face, to let people know there is an alternative, surely thats a first step.

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 11, 2012, 10:28 PM | #

Lurker @ 7.43   Sold. Count me in Lurker. Bear in mind that I am very new to this commenting game. And that I am somewhat limited by my tech (i’m only on a PS3, i’m not entirely sure I can use reddit and I can’t just go get a PC because I have no money because I have been on tax strike for 3 years and have refused to work because I refuse to pay for my own enslavement).

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Posted by uKn_Leo on March 12, 2012, 08:25 PM | #

Oh great, just leave this hanging here at the bottom. This isn’t as bad as it sounds to all you loaded ol’ fellas. I inherited some money and have done a lot of work on family projects for cash. I am on tax strike but only while I can be. I had hoped by now, after so much state/corporate financial mismanagement has been highlighted over the last few years, that many more would have joined me. But my one man attempt to bring down the UK government has thus far failed to a large extent. A very very large extent. In fact I have a warrant out for my arrest over tax (council) non payment. But I am morally correct. The ‘system’ is utterly corrupt from top to bottom, and I do, I really do, refuse to pay for my own enslavement. I have left their prison. I just got up and walked out and all you guys would be really proud of me and love me to bits if you knew me in real life. Crusty bum, I am not. Just a waif and stray from the zog hell hole who learned enough about what was really going on to have washed up here.

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Posted by Leon Haller on March 13, 2012, 01:04 AM | #

Leon – No God, no ethics? Perhaps but it seems a very strong claim indeed.

On what basis do we found morals and ethics? – I’m kind of a quasi-realist (I think Simon Blackburn is quite interesting on this topic see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-realism), plus a virtue ethics person of some sort I suppose, but think that moral choices are highly context specific - highly sensitive to initial conditions so to speak, so not easily captured in very generalised rule-based notions such as ‘never lie’ – such general rules miss the highly nuanced nature and particularities of human life – their resolution are simply too coarse and unfocused to work well. Why should philosophical fundamentalism like Kantianism be preferable to the religious sort? In an odd way Kant is anyway just a very convoluted account of the Golden Rule.


Ultimately life is the highest value for it is only in being alive that we can even start to develop and exercise our moral and ethical capabilities. It seems obvious to say but everything is grounded upon physical existence – mere ‘brute’ life. A vigorous ethos of life would be my starting point. Perhaps another related question is the one posed by Camus et al., – why not commit suicide? An answer to such radical existentialism might be as good a starting point as any for formulating a moral theory. Perhaps life must be understood as a precious gift – of either the blind watchmaker of natural selection - or of the divine (perhaps the latter via the former?) – but a gift so valuable it is not to be squandered or surrendered in either an individual or collective act of care-free abandonment. (Lister)

I repeat:

Why be moral if either God does not exist, or He is powerless over you (eg, you have no immortal soul, which can be subject to punishment or damnation)?

Recall my saying to you some months or years back that ethics exist independent of God (as does logic and math), but only the existence of God justifies being ethical, imo. Without God, we are nothing more than self-aware animals, with residual but attenuated instincts. How ethical are animals? And can we even call purely instinctual behavior ‘ethical’? (LH)

The essence of ethics is self-sacrifice (which is partly why Christians attach such transcendent importance to Christ on the Cross). The more disinterested the sacrifice, the greater its ethical weight.

I’m a pragmatic fellow. In a way, I start from the requirements of brute existence as well. Ethics is that which causes me to subordinate my desires for the good of others. Why would I do that in a Godless reality? I might be ethical as a function of keeping up appearances, but that’s not true ethics, which must arise from within.

My point is that without God, an omniscient being for whom ethics (as some form of personal abnegation) represents a kind of sacrifice, what is the reason for sacrificing one’s own interests? Of course, that doesn’t mean we would all be moral monsters. Quite apart from legal strictures, I have no desire to rape, assault, murder, etc. But then in foregoing those activities, I’m still acting out of self-interest. I’m just not psychopathic by nature. On the other hand, without God, why not be an embezzler? I certainly would like ill-gotten financial gains. I might not actually be one, for fear of the law, but again that’s not ethics, only cowardice or (selfish) concern for personal well-being.

Ethics inheres in the very nature of things, but that alone is insufficient reason to be ethical. One crosses the chasm to ethics when one crosses the divide from animal to human - and only theists really believe that we are something more than animal. 

 

 

 

 

 

256

Posted by Leon Haller on March 13, 2012, 01:11 AM | #

Brief summary on the American theme:

Are there not two broad and, at some level, inter-dependent forces that are seriously undermining the nation-state? On the one hand, globalization of financial and commodity markets is undermining the capacity of the state to steer socio-economic life – neither tariff walls nor welfare arrangements generally seem able to avail against the pressures of the global free-market and the logic of market exchange in all things. The other, ever-increasing immigration and the rise of multi-culturalism, are threatening to dissolve the ethnic homogeneity of nations in the West – the great migration of people into societies without the legitimate or democratic consent of the indigenous peoples into which they are moving – is a set of historical processes that have grave risks attracted to them. Traditional life-worlds, ethical codes, socio-cultural practices and protections – all of which are proxies for a people and their particular ‘form of life’  -  face being first ‘hollowed-out’ (creating societies that are maximally heterogeneous - so diverse that they are left wondering what holds them together), then ultimately disintegration, under the radically expansive dual formation of super-modernity and hyper-liberalism.

I happen to think the USA is the Western nation by far the most far-down this road and has the least politico-cultural resources (ideological or political imagination in the broad sense) to resist such transformative forces – in part because it embodies those destructive forces so thoroughly in its own values and form of life. (Lister)

Well said. Globalization (de-homogenizing from above) + immigration (de-homogenizing from below) are dissolving the webs of tradition and affective attachments which bind a people together, both now and across time. The result is a relentless process of social atomization, abetted by a culture emphasizing expressive individualism (unless you happen to be expressing your opinion of the alien invasions!). This atomization only feeds on itself, and grows. Eventually, the new rootless forget that they ever once were a people, and then the hostile takeover is complete.

Conquest through dispossession, a new form of imperialism.

257

Posted by Robert Reis on April 09, 2012, 01:22 AM | #

“Since the dawn of history the negro has owned the
continent of Africa – rich beyond the dream of
poet’s fancy, crunching acres of diamonds beneath his bare
black feet. Yet he never picked one up from the dust
until a white man showed to him its glittering
light. His land swarmed with powerful and docile
animals, yet he never dreamed a harness, cart, or
sled. A hunter by necessity, he never made an axe,
spear, or arrowhead worth preserving beyond the
moment of its use. He lived as an ox, content to
graze for an hour. In a land of stone and timber he
never sawed a foot of lumber, carved a block, or
built a house save of broken sticks and mud. With
league on league of ocean strand and miles of inland
seas, for four thousand years he watched their
surface ripple under the wind, heard the thunder of
the surf on his beach, the howl of the storm over
his head, gazed on the dim blue horizon calling him
to worlds that lie beyond, and yet he never dreamed
a sail.” — Charles Darwin

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