The Indian/Chinese IQ puzzle

Posted by jonjayray on Saturday, 01 January 2005 04:10.

Both India and China are countries that have had the sort of moderate contact with the rest of Eurasia that their position at two extremities of Asia would lead one to expect.  Both India and China have had their own sophisticated civilizations for at least two thousand years.  The Chinese invented such things as gunpowder and printing.  The Indians invented the so-called “Arabic” numerals that we use to this day and one of their religions (Buddhism) has been enormously influential outside their own borders.  Both Indians and Chinese do extremely well economically outside their home countries.  To me this is a picture of two generally intelligent populations.  Yet the average IQ score for the two differs markedy.  Chinese score somewhat above the Western norm and Indians score markedly below it.  How come? 

The usual explanation of IQ in terms of climate is straightforward.  India has a much warmer climate than China and the severe Northern Chinese winter has selected heavily for ability to think ahead and intelligence generally.  Consonant with that, it is only Northern East Asians (the Han Chinese, the Koreans and the Japanese) that have the IQ advantage.  Southern East Asians (Filipinos, Malayans and Vietnamese)  are if anything slightly below the British/American norm.

As a very criterion-oriented psychometrician, however, I am not really convinced by that explanation.  I know Indians very well and I have even done social surveys in India.  And I cannot convince myself that Indians suffer any real disadvantage.  I am inclined to the view that the difference we see lies in the non-genetic causes of intelligence.  Since a third of intelligence is NOT genetically determined, environmental factors would be well able to explain the measured IQ differences between Indians and Chinese.

So what could be the environmental factors that differ?  Here we are as far as I can see entirely in the realm of speculation.  The difference that occurs to me is the legendary Chinese devotion to education—which goes back long before significant Western contact.  Even in the days of Marco Polo (Yes.  I know that the Marco Polo tale is probably a compilation from various sources) entry to the Imperial Chinese civil service was via examination.  India, by contrast, has nothing comparable.  There was some stress on education during the British Raj but the Raj (or “Reich”, as the Germans would say)  had nearly complete control of India for not much more than a hundred years (the Sepoy mutiny was in 1857).  What DOES characterize the Indians as far as I can see is an enormous devotion to chat.  The Indians are as talkative as the Chinese and Japanese are reserved.  So it always amuses me to see the different contributions that the Indians and Chinese are now making to the globalized economy.  The Chinese have become the workshop of the world and now supply all the widgets and gadgets that anyone could need.  Our supermarkets are full of their manufactures.  And what do the Indians export?  TALK!  They are the call-centre headquarters of the world!  How fitting!

And note that verbal ability is the core element in IQ.  If you want a quick index of IQ, vocabulary size is the best available shortcut measure.  So that fact too militates against Indians really being dumb.

So what I think has happened is that the Indians have the depressed IQ scores that are characteristic of an overwhelmingly rural population (scores which rise with urbanization) but in China an equally rural population has overcome the rural handicap by an emphasis on education skills—and those skills help to maximize IQ scores.

The lower scores of the Southern East Asians are usually explaimed by pointing to a history of interbreeding with pre-existing indigenous populations and I suspect that the Negritos (pygmies) are the main culprit there.  Filipino and Vietnamese women in particular are still often remarkably short by our standards.

Tags: Psychology



Comments:


199001

Posted by bill clinton on Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:37 | #

Olympics 2000

Olympics 2004

Olympics 2008

Forget academics: what about sports. gold medals.s

How many medals did China, India. Philippines, etc. win in 2000 2004 2008

google: olympics.

The answer speak for themselves.  what’s the truth.


199002

Posted by barack obama on Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:11 | #

google: british empire.

UK empire: How did UK colonized all of india. 

King of UK was Emperor of India

India independence movement.  Was india Not independent in the first place.

How come Gandhi had to walk around in a diaper to acquire independece from tiny UK.

Answer: IQ of 81. Low 80s


199003

Posted by viker on Mon, 26 Oct 2009 07:36 | #

Well to all the guys above…...
IQ is well known to be a measure of intelligence but do you know the fact that IQ scores are very poor predictors of success.
So stop bragging about Intelligence and think about practicality and opportunities.


199004

Posted by Reason on Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:31 | #

I dont believe in IQ tests, my IQ test is 128, as I joined the High Iq Society with that score. But I don’t think thats got anything to do with intelligence. Thats because I like puzzles, chess and memory games. Im of Indian origin living in UK. I even read about high school exam results at some local school, where indians had top scores, then second was white, and then below that was bandladesh and pakistani.

Now I dont think the score had anything to do with race, but upbringing by the parents, as indians like their kids to do well at school and higher education. IQ really has nothing to do with it. Also remember in western Europe and America, there are MUCH better facilities, plus you dont have to pay for education like india, and also you have light at night so you can read your books, unlike india, as there are lot of power cuts. Im sure if India had a better infrastructure like Europe, easily achieve same results as Europe if not better. Remember in india a child might have to work to earn money and also in their spare time try to study! Its basically poverty, which can affect IQ scores, not genes!


199005

Posted by Jamaal on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:06 | #

It has been repeatedly proven that IQ is important in predicting the prosperity of nations and it is genetic. The environment has a small effect on IQ.


199006

Posted by ZipperHead on Sun, 15 Nov 2009 04:02 | #

Humans doesn’t need IQ scores to prosper, nor achivements in sports,  Human need Happiness and hapiness and feeling of wellbeing is relative, Human just like other animals is designed to live and procreate. People in Burma are found more happy than United states because they are less selfish, hedonistic, greedy and mad about material things, no amount of technology can substitute for mental health.


199007

Posted by Aistulf on Sun, 15 Nov 2009 04:13 | #

Humans doesn’t need IQ scores to prosper, nor achivements in sports, Human need Happiness and hapiness and feeling of wellbeing is relative, Human just like other animals is designed to live and procreate.
>ZipperHead (no shit!)

What the fuck are you yammering about, ‘tard?  “Humans” aren’t humans.  White people are humans, you are not.


199008

Posted by Anonymous on Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:07 | #

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgf86k8C62g


199009

Posted by Jamaal on Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:49 | #

Hey zipperhead,
Check out dis shit,
From
http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/10/happiest_countries/index_01.htm?chan=rss_topSlideShows_ssi_5
“Feeling blue? Perhaps you live in the wrong country. A recent study from Britain’s University of Leicester examined a range of statistical data to devise a ranking of the world’s happiest nations. Heading up the list: Denmark, which rose to the top thanks to its wealth, natural beauty, small size, quality education, and good health care. At the bottom were Zimbabwe and Burundi. “

Here is da list.
1.Kongeriget Danmark (Kingdom of Denmark)
2.Swiss Confederation also Switzerland
3.Österreich (Austria)
4.Ísland (Iceland)
5.The Bahamas
6.Suomi (Finland)
7.Konungariket Sverige (Kingdom of Sweden)
8.Druk Yul (Kingdom of Bhutan )
9.Brunei
10.Canada

Most happy people are Rich White people, you get it, now cry.


199010

Posted by Pontiff on Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:19 | #

Happiness Index Of Countries that Matters!

USA – 7.4 points – 17th place
Great Britain – 7.1 points – 22nd place
France – 6.5 points – 39th place
China – 6.3 points – 44th place
India – 6.3 points – 45th place
Japan – 6.3 points – 46th place


199011

Posted by Pontiff on Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:54 | #

This is America: one in 8 go hungryNovember 17, 2009 - 5:02PM

The US Agriculture Department has released bleak figures on the state of hunger in the United States, showing that more American families are having difficulty feeding their members.


The annual Household Food Security report, released on Monday, showed that in 2008, families in 17 million households - 14.6 per cent of US homes - had difficulty putting enough food on the table at some point during the year, an 11 per cent increase over 2007.


The figures “represent the highest level observed since nationally representative food security surveys were initiated in 1995,” the USDA said.


“The fundamental cause of food insecurity and hunger in the United States is poverty - marked by a lack of adequate resources to address basic needs such as food, shelter and health care,” the statement added.


President Barack Obama described the report - which came as some 60 heads of state and government were attending the World Summit on Food Security in Rome.

- as “unsettling”.

“This trend was already painfully clear in many communities across our nation, where food stamp applications are surging and food pantry shelves are emptying,” Obama said.


The president said he was especially troubled that there were more than 500,000 US families “in which a child experienced hunger multiple times over the course of the year.


“Our children’s ability to grow, learn, and meet their full potential - and therefore our future competitiveness as a nation - depends on regular access to healthy meals,” he said.


The first task to reverse the trend of rising hunger “is to restore job growth, which will help relieve the economic pressures that make it difficult for parents to put a square meal on the table each day,” Obama said.


The president also said his administration has increased help for low-income families seeking food assistance, especially those with children.


199012

Posted by bada bad lingam on Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:41 | #

Happiness Index Of Countries that Matters!

Pontiff

India does not matter.


199013

Posted by kala ganda lund on Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:44 | #

“How come Gandhi had to walk around in a diaper to acquire independece from tiny UK.”

And BTW President Obongo,

Gandhi had nothing to do with India’s independence. After fighting the Third Reich and the Imperial Japanese forces, Britain was too tired and uninterested in holding on to India.


199014

Posted by Shiv on Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:04 | #

FAIR USE QUOTE EXCERPTED FROM FORBES (emphasis supplied):

“When statistical adjustments are used to convert the backward digit span results to full-scale IQ scores, Indian Americans place at about 112 on a bell-shaped IQ distribution, with white Americans at 100. 112 is the 79th percentile of the white distribution. For more context, consider that Ashkenazi Jews are a famously intelligent ethnic group, and their mean IQ is somewhere around 110.”

*********************************************************************************
- The scoring was for a small sample of immigrant kids from India
- The children grew up in India, then came to the US, and were scored

...........they scored as well as the Ashkenazi Jews - the smartest group, IQ-wise.

In URBAN and EDUCATED India, scores like this are commonly possible.

In RURAL and ILLITERATE parts, scores like 80-90 are likely common.

In my school (a very elite one, though), scores of 120-136 were seen in IQ testing.

In another study of middle-class Muslim kids, a score of around 101 was seen, though lower scores for the “inbred” Muslims of around 90 have also been seen.

There are over 40,000 genetic pools in India, and therefore the scoring has wide variables.


My thoughts:

(1) For the vast majority of work - an IQ score of 90-95 is quite enough, due to the simple or repetitive nature of the work.

(2) Assuming that ~1% of India’s population represent the 112 mean IQ seen in American scoring, that would still be closer to 10-12 MILLION folk. They are the ones that would drive science, technology, economics, and industry.

(3) Using the Bell Curve deviation from the mean, perhaps close to 50-60 million may have an IQ of 100+, competing with the average white man. They may form the bulk of the “middle class”. shaping trends and economics.

All in all, decent in keeping a country advanced and developed to some degree. Obviously, the potential is heavily underused compared to the USA or Japan and to a degree even China due to the bulk being poor in scores, but you can’t write off a country with 10 MILLION + scoring as high as Ashkenazi Jews….the smartest group as an overall people.


199015

Posted by V on Fri, 11 Dec 2009 21:28 | #

First let me tell you guys something well just bickering over IQ doesn’t take you anywhere near the solution.Well India is a diverse nation a nation full of people of different ethnicities,religions,tribes here the one thing that Indians excel at is backstabbing,conspiracies and such stuff.India happened to remain a colony for a great many years owing to Indians who wanted it to be colonized for their own gains(material).Every successful man in this world has cronies,blokes who go around kissing their ass during the good days only to kick them out of competition when times change.Successful Indians have too many of them.Indians are obsessed with these that’s what makes India unique.Indians are their worst enemies,Indians stand in the way of India’s prosperity.Ever been to the Indian parliament?Dunno now but even sometime back half the MP’s were school dropouts.Imagine being ruled by illiterate people.Indian penal code allows cases pertaining to politicians/elite to go on and on for decades.And Indian masses oblige accordingly.Every five years there’s a poll and the very same people who’ve been around for years come back to power to lead India on to another half decade of increasing poverty,lawlessness,corruption.And while the elite profit the rest of the Indians look up to them congratulating them for having cheated them and those near the triumphant elite start planning their downfall.Basically when you put your mind to something and work with perfection and determination you succeed.I sucked at math bigtime but with some hard work and determination now I am an IIT graduate working abroad.All I say is that it’s not whites or East Asians or Chinese people who’ve off the charts IQ all I’d say is that there are too many people who can’t seem to use their brains to the very full potential.Those of them who can move ahead and are looked up to as high IQ guys but if you can use them you are gonna be no less.Different nationalities are good at different stuff and Indians are good at backstabbing smart ones move out of India to avoid the very same and subsequently prosper.And Aistulf no shit but only shit dicks like you are the very reason the world see’s such less progress in racial matters,shitheads like you are the reason Hitler was the Fuhrer sickos like you are guys who are responsible for such a lot of misery in this world.


199016

Posted by Americangirl on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 20:34 | #

As a white Westerner who is watching my society decay at the hands of Third World immigration, I am getting sick and tired of the ignorance on this topic.

I keep seeing whiny Indians above going on and on about how smart the Indians IN EUROPE AND AMERICA are.  Meanwhile you ignore that these immigrants are a small portion of India’s global population.  If Indians OVERALL were as smart as whites then we would be seeing results right now.  India would be as advanced as Denmark. 

Get out of our countries and go back to India.  We did just fine without you before.

I am also getting sick of these emotional comments going into how “India was the greatest civilization the world had ever known”.  If that is the case, then why isn’t it still great?  By what criteria are you going by to say that India was a superior civilization at one time?  And not only that, but who was it in India that was responsible for it?  Yes, it took Europe a while to “surpass the world”, but we also had the disadvantage of living in a cold continent devoid of natural resources for the longest time. 

Get a life, and stop coming up with these ridiculous excuses that “whites moved to the top not based on their intelligence but because they stole resources from the rest of the world”.  Okay, if this is the case, then why was it so easy for us to steal them from you to begin with if you were the superior ones?

White people are NOT going to be putting up with this garbage much longer.  You can brag about how most American and British engineers and doctors are Indian all you want, and then meanwhile we wonder why the West isn’t on top of the world like we used to be.  I wonder if there is a correlation between the two.  Where were all those smart Indians when we landed on the moon?


199017

Posted by Indian on Mon, 04 Jan 2010 21:14 | #

The Indian IQ conundrum.

India is extremely diverse as it has about more than 2000 different ethnic groups.

Southern Brahmin, 1% @ 120 IQ
Northern Brahmin, 4% @ 115 IQ
Southern Merchant, 3% @ 110 IQ
Northern Merchant, 12% @ 105 IQ
Southern Peasant, 8% @ 93 IQ
Northern Peasant, 32% @ 88 IQ
Muslim, 15% @ 75 iQ
Southern Dalit, 5% @ 75 IQ
Northern Dalit, 20% @ 75IQ

therefore,Average Indian IQ = 86.10

Some questions the readers might ask:

Why such huge disparities in the first place?
A:“CASTE SYSTEM”,caste system in India has existed for the last 3000 yrs,with the Brahmins being highest caste & Dalits being the lowest.The Brahmins and Merchants have traditionally dominated professions requiring cognitive abilities unlike the Dalits and peasants who were into menial tasks.

Why do Southern Brahmins have such high IQ?
A:1% of 1.1billion population will certainly have a high IQ average.

Why do South Indians have Higher IQ Average than North Indians?
A:Northern India historically has been invaded by various tribes such as Sycthians,Parthians,Huns etc and later by Muslims resulting in intermixing of ethnic groups.

If Brahmins indeed have such high IQ why is India still like that?
A:Most of the Brahmins are priests in Hindu temples.Most of the Indians with IQ over 90 migrate to the West.
  Most of Indian politicians belong to “Northern Peasant” group i.e avg IQ 88.

Is this table accurate?
A:No,its based on some false assumptions like all Muslims were converts from backward castes.There is no mention of North-east Indians who are ethnically Tibeto-Burmese.The Sikhs are lumped with the Northern peasants group.But on the whole it is a good attempt to summarize Indian IQ.

Can IQ be considered as a parameter for the progress of a nation?
A:Yes & No.
No
because progress of nation also depends upon leadership,for example:
North Korean IQ:106
South Korean IQ:106
But South Korea in every field is ahead of North Korea.
Also before the economic liberalization of Chinese economy in 1970,China was an impoverished nation.
Yes
because a mere 8% Chinese ethnic group controls 80% of South east-Asian economy
example:Singapore,Malaysia,Taiwan,Hong Kong etc.

Is IQ differences mainly genetic?
A:No,Studies claim claim IQ differences at least 50% genetic.IQ depends on other parameters like health,environment etc.For example:Mercury and Lead decrease IQ by 14 points.
Children subjected to spanking or any form of physical or sexual abuse are more likely to have lower IQ.

So,what lies ahead for India?
A:As Indian economy continues to boom,the west gets tough with immigration laws,most of the Indian elites are staying back in India & the NRIs(Non-resident Indians) are returning.
India can be a success story like Malaysia where a 5% high IQ Chinese minority controls the economy of the comparatively lower IQ Malays.Also the Flynn for India is 7.6.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_Global_Inequality
http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2008/06/13/indias-average-iq-in-2100/
http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2008/05/19/indian-iq-part-1-diaspora-demographics/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Malaysia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Indian_history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_india
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/node/7669
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Between-group_differences_in_IQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ#Between-group_heritability
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_testing_environmental_variances
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_and_intelligence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-resident_Indian_and_Person_of_Indian_Origin


199018

Posted by Signofthetimes on Tue, 05 Jan 2010 11:29 | #

Interesting find. Stumbled upon this while searching for the current perceived racism in Australia Indians are having histrionics over. Anyways, it was all a very great read, I would like to add my 2 cents to the ongoing rubbish. First I really don’t care about IQ debates per se, as the people who scored lower will always feel it’s wrong so it’s never a win-win (for the present). But that I want to comment about my observations from all this bickering. And that is, isn’t it eerily similar to when talking about blacks and their IQ’s? Inevitably blacks will show up, first trying to discredit all the research out there, then turn ethnocentric and list their inventions, later start accusing people of racism/having preferences, and end it all by name calling and bashing others themselves. Hahaha. Sounds much like this board, only difference is this time the blacks are replaced with Indians. Of course Indians are still smarter than the negroids and have a greater history, but still skin color wise, there’s not much of a difference.
Which brings me to this. Dark skinned people are just as racist as light skinned people, just look at these debates. And they accuse us whites as being the most racist?? We’re now nothing compared to how Indians treat people in India. So I don’t care if they have IQ’s of 200, dark skinned browns should stay in their own countries and stop polluting ours. Believe me, we have too much muds already. I, for one, do not want to envision a world dominated by the browns. What a dirty, smelly world it will be. Ick. Take your genius IQ’s and stay in wonderful, *nice smelling* India.

Oh and one more thing, about your *high* verbal sklls. If that’s a measure to success, blacks and Hispanics should be ruling our world by now, they’re just so verbal and loud. Hah, that’ll be the day, sans them outbreeding us all. As for Indian verbal IQ, me thinks Indians talk more than they should. Certainly they rate their call centre skills a bit too highly. Because personally I find getting routed to an Indian call centre to be a little less annoying than to a Filipino one. Both think they speak English better than they do. Both sound like they’re reading from a script, get confused at the drop of complication, thereby going into a rut and needing to transfer you to someone else. And around we go. As I said the Indian is a slightly better than the Filipino but they’re both hard to understand. The first speaking with that annoying sing-song, the second sounding like a scared little ten yr. old. Oh and don’t Indians look down upon Filipinos too? But yet here they are, in the same boat with Indians, being sought out for their “verbal” skills.


199019

Posted by SHEILAKRAMAN on Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:20 | #

Indian medical doctor with IQ score of 163( taken twice with almost same results). Much hype about the achievements of many nations are being posted. I think every nation has contributed as per their capacity to the world.
Discoveries, nobel laureates are all about making the world a better place.What has been discovered by our ancestors are indeed our pride but not our right to claim some cheap publicity. Instead of lashing out on the net, I guess it will be more rewarding to get down to work, make your own discoveries and secure a niche for yourselves on planet earth or anywhere in this universe. I personally studied in India and have high regards for her. However, it is true that she has room for lots of improvement.


199020

Posted by God's Follower on Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:36 | #

I read most of the articles posted above.
I wonder how my brothers and sisters of different nations are fighting on small issue like IQ.
My sincere request to all of you to pay attention on the most likely dooms day.
In the film 2012 we saw how the contribution of different countries made the civilization safe.
It is the unity that makes our world safe not the diversity.
If we are quarreling with each other no doubt the world is going to collapse one day(before doom’s day).
Coming to the theory of IQ—-I just want to say that
“Every soul has an equal potential, You can do any thing and every thing”
“GOD lies in every soul”.
So if you have a higher IQ—> try to give more knowledge to the world
on the other hand
if you have a lower IQ….. let the higher IQ people think about it how to make the balance.


199021

Posted by Chinese on Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:21 | #

In China, Shanghai centered area ( or the Yangtze River Delta) people have the highest IQ.

In 2006, China Government had a IQ test for 6-year old children all over China. Children in Shanghai, Jiangsu Province and Zhejiang Province has a average IQ of >110. Average IQ of Shanghai and Zhejiang Children is around 115.


199022

Posted by Chinese on Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:38 | #

I believe Chinese(East Asians) are well evolved compared to other nations, as have been proved by many facts. But this does not mean all Chinese are smart.

Basically, In China, People who live in coastal provinces and Yangtze River basin provinces are smarter. However, those who live in remote Northwest are not that smart.

So I think Chinese are not as smart as Japanese or Koreans averagely. But people from Yangtze River Delta are believed to have the highest avarage IQ among East Asia. And the average IQ figure of adults from this region, I guess, is around 115-120.


199023

Posted by Chinese on Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:47 | #

Let me explain the year 2006 China Official IQ test for children in detail.

Here’s some raw data:

China children (around 6 year old) average: 103.5

Zhejiang province rural boys: 116.23
Zhejiang province average: 115.05
Beijing rural: 114.9
Hangzhou city: 114.7
Zhejiang province rural girls: 114.41
Zhejiang province girls average: 114.32
Wenzhou average: 114.195
Beijing average: 114.07
Zhejiang province city girls: 113.73
Zhejiang province city boys: 113.46
Beijing city average: 112.6
Hubei province city average: 111
Jiangsu province average: 109
Jilin province average: 107.04
Hubei province small cities and towns average: 106.4
Hubei province boys average: 105.44
Hubei province average: 105.3
Sichuan province average: 105.3
Hubei province girls average: 105.1
Guangdong province average: 103.4
Henan province average: 95.51
Hainan province average: 92.6

======================================

According to the data above, I think 106 is a reasonable figure for Chinese adult IQ average.


199024

Posted by wert on Thu, 04 Feb 2010 01:52 | #

indians rule


199025

Posted by random indian on Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:22 | #

Well…
I am an Indian.
I have always looked up at the western and oriental societies with a lot of respect.I love many things western and oriental-oriental music for example.I am learning Japanese currently,because i like it.

I was hurt to see that my home country is being attacked like that by many outsiders.Some of the language used is terrible.

I was even more hurt to see that some Indians are doing the same racist remarks such as by trying to classify brahmins and southerners as superior to the rest.I am from a brahmin family myself(though,am not a very religious person),and I cannot accept this kind of racism.You don’t solve racism with more racism.

From my observations,environmental factors like family discipline,nutrition and education tend to play a VERY important role in shaping the child’s Intelligence.Smart children tend to have Active parents who are not necessarily themselves very smart.

I will make some points here very quickly:

AFRICA ARGUEMENT:We are all from africa and we are closer to each other genetically than are two nearby chimp communities.So why the fighting and belittling?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpBzti8U58s&feature=related

MIXED BREED ARGUEMENT:Well,technically,mixed breeds are more evolved than pure breeds.They tend to have more genetic variety and bad mutations often go away.So if Indians are mixed breeds,then they are at an adavantage here.

IM OLYMPIAD ARGUEMENT:Someone from china asked why India doesn’t do well in the IMO.The answer is we don’t take it seriously.China wasn’t topping from the start,were they?They only started doing that after the economic boom.Why is that an Indian is the world chess champion,but not china?

Also,IMO results is hardly the end of everything.The french results at IMO is worse than India’s ,but there are so many more Fields medal and Abel prize winners from france than are in China.

IQ ARGUEMENT:Firstly,IQ is not the end of everything.IQ doesn’t predict imagination and creativity.And intuition develops with practice.According to Einstein,imagination is the most important thing.Richard Feynman was one of the most intelligent people of last century and he had an IQ of 122.If you count the flynn effect,it’s even lesser.Good,but hardly great.Of course,higher IQ people are more likely to succeed ,just like a person with a fitter body is more likely to succeed in a a sport like tennis.But fitness alone cannot make you a winner or a master at the sport.Moreover,fitness of a healthy person can be improved.


Secondly,IQ is far from being genetically pre-determined and it can be changed even in adulthood.Just taking the Iq test repeatedly is gonna make you increase your score a bit.Learning basic logical and abstract mathematical reasoning can boost your IQ score.Many brain games like tetris can improve your Iq.So can plain working memory training and meditation.Even learning unrelated things like a new language or a new musical instrument can boost your IQ.It’s just like neurogenesis and brain-plasticity.Just a few years back it was thought that the brain cannot generate new neurons ,but it is now known that not only can a grown-up person generate new neurons,he can move that neuron to the essential area and he can rewire his connections.Today we also know that IQ can increase in adults.

BLACK GENES ARGUEMENT:Scientists are still divided over what are the genetic factors involved in intelligence and whether some races are fundamentally inferior in intelligence.We don’t even know what’s intelligence.What’s funny is that a group of people will still give a few statistical data as “proof” of iq being “mostly” genetic.

You cannot give a “percentage” of genetic factor in intelligence because genes and environment react in a complex way and different genes respond to different stimulus differently.Or can you say what percent of the area of the rectangle is contributed by length and what by breadth?

In fact,most of the studies suggest that racial difference in IQ is mainly due to environment.Hell,blacks may have a slight advantage over whites genetically.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~nisbett/racegen.pdf

http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/GeneWatch/GeneWatchPage.aspx?pageId=200&archive=yes

Even identical twins have an average IQ difference of 6 points and some pairs have a difference of well over 20 points.

FINAL ARGUEMENT:Why are we so keen on selection and division,rather than construction and production.These racial studies of IQ are obviously done racists themselves.A more benefitting study will be to find out what kind of training can boost IQ and how can the available intelligence be used more efficiently.

I mean-saying that you are not worthy for a job,you are not worthy for breeding is not a solution.we don’t want to go back to hitler’s eugenics -do we?
We have to find proper training methods.And believe that we can improve ourselves.Studies show that positive thinking is better predictor of success than IQ.


199026

Posted by Jonathan on Sun, 14 Feb 2010 13:28 | #

Wow, the last few pages were a revealing read indeed - a bunch of supposedly high IQ people attacking and belittling each other for no other reason than they believe their ‘group’ to be superior based on nothing but some nebulous three digit number.

A question for all of you prodigies: What purpose does this type of ‘research’ serve except to inflame racial and nationalistic tension?

No wonder this type of stuff is kept out of the mainstream.


199027

Posted by Indians are slumdogs on Mon, 15 Feb 2010 05:20 | #

Indians are genetically programmed to be losers


199028

Posted by Z on Mon, 15 Feb 2010 07:22 | #

Don’t ya just love it when envious ‘Turd world’ brown people (and yes, this includes Asians) go and troll on posts about how supposedly so ‘great’ they putatively are, especially between each other?

This is a White man’s site, get on your camel’s and your elephant’s and go to the landfills where your own kind hang out. We don’t need you here.


199029

Posted by D on Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:55 | #

As a guy who has been to both India and China, all I can say is they are not in the same league. The typical Indian is stupid and dull (how can these idiots claim that they are the smartest? Honestly they are crazy.), they are surly always lying, always scheming. Their festivals are ridiculous and in my opinion it is a nation of weird retards. My girlfriend has told me she will leave me if I ever take her to dumps like India ever. India sucks, Indians are crap.


199030

Posted by Indians are gayz on Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:47 | #

On average, Indian men are borderline gays and wimps. They are over emotional like women.

I’m sure a lot of people still remember watching the Indian cricket team’s captain Kapil Dev weep like a woman infront of foreign journalists during an interview with the BBC.

Then there’s the case of the near hysterical Indian men who claimed to have been manhandled by Brad Pitt’s bodyguard.

And ofcourse Bollywood movies portray the gayness of Indian men. Like dancing and singing aroung the tree. LOL!! All Bollywood actors are shown as being over emotional.  Where else do you see men being so emotional, except in India.


199031

Posted by Z on Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:44 | #

And ofcourse Bollywood movies portray the gayness of Indian men. Like dancing and singing aroung the tree. LOL!! All Bollywood actors are shown as being over emotional.  Where else do you see men being so emotional, except in India.

They are also insanely jealous of the White man and the beautiful civilization that his race produced—that is why they kid themselves into think of themselves as ‘Aryans’—and the “East” Asians like to think of themselves (especially the Japanese) as honorary Aryans.

~

Like the universal law of aesthetics. We want beauty. Superior beauty lies in the white race. It is the variety of color, the red hair, the blonde hair, the green eyes, the blue eyes. All the other races in the world have only one coloring, the same black hair, the dark brown eyes and skin. A bit drab in comparison, can’t we say?

...

The darkies of the world are truly fascinated with the white race, and always have been. However, there is a certain envy that naturally, unavoidably develops. It seems Hitler had a point when he referred to “the hated white race.” (Mein Kampf, p.325.) But the sexual encounter of the dark with the white makes the white dark. And what most people—especially white people—forget is the fact that the white race is the minority in the world. It is, and has always been, vastly out-numbered by the dark races. Moreover, the pigmentations of the white race are all genetically recessive. The whiteness is first to fade.

Therefore, integration tends to mean elimination for the white race. That’s simply the way of the genetic world. That the white race became the most powerful, dominant, ruling race may be attributed to cultural values more than anything else. It was of course the white race that adopted the Judeo-Christian religion. The social constructs and psychological hierarchies in this tradition evolved a people more astute and agile in every way.

...

Whatever ‘mental’ problems the white race developed as a result of being more powerful are only fairly recent evolutions. In his day the white man has created a throne like no other in history. If it is criminal at the foundation, the challenge is chiefly from envy—always the weakest charge. Besides, what’s the point of the dark man accusing the white man of not keeping his white morals, if the dark man himself does not believe in those morals? The charge of hypocrisy is moot, made in impotence. (The white man’s self-flagellation is the only hope of the darkies.)

...

Disguised though it may be in moral and religious terms, political terms, or even genetic terms, the case is fairly obvious: “the hated white race” is such for its beauty and power.

~ David A. Yeagley, ‘Bad Eagle’ - American Indian Patriot and great-great-grandson of Comanche leader Bad Eagle


http://www.badeagle.com/2009/06/16/the-hated-white-race/


199032

Posted by Reggie on Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:05 | #

My grandfather was a colonel in the British army and was stationed in India during WW2.

He would often remark on how he had never come across a more un-manly, butt ugly and deceitful race than the stinky Indians.


199033

Posted by AB on Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:03 | #

Well Indians cry because Indians have a heart.

I mean I see many western people coming here and claiming that they are superior on the basis of the fact that they actually colonizeed us and enslaved africans?That’s the proof of intellectual superiority?Or is it the proof of your cruelity?Is the smartest peron in a class-room usually the biggest bully in the class?
Hell,I have even seen white people who said that the millions of innocent people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually “deserved it”.They take millions of life in the middle-east in the name of revenge,whereas actually they want to find oil.
That’s manliness?

Keep your manliness to yourself.
It is pretty well known that white people officially have the smallest penises.The very reason why people like Rushton engage in these kind of racist study is because he needs something(read IQ) to cover up the small size of his penis.I mean this Rushton guy is pretty funny with his penis obsession.Except-he is wrong by his own data.The east-asians have both larger brains and penises period.


199034

Posted by Slumdog India on Fri, 19 Feb 2010 04:22 | #

It doesn’t take genius IQ to figure out that China can kick India’s ass in any area, anytime.

If Indians don’t know that, then they have an IQ thats lower that what the estimate suggests.


199035

Posted by AB on Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:17 | #

Mr.Johnjayray ,I feel that this blog requires moderation.

I believe the original aim of the article was to discuss environmental factors that can influence the Indian IQ.Wasn’t it?
But how are the coments of posters like slumdog india,indians are gayz,reggie,,etc. not off topic?All I see is some unexplained hatred towards our country of India.


199036

Posted by Slumdog India on Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:56 | #

@AB

Previous comments by Indian posters have included plentiful racist slurs directed at others.

How come no Indian objects when it’s their countrymen mocking and dispariging others, but whine and complain when they get a taste of their own medicine?

Hypocracy is a well known Indian trait.


199037

Posted by Slumdog India on Sat, 20 Feb 2010 02:09 | #

@AB

Your own comment includes racist slurs. Don’t be such a two faced wanker.

And if you want to know which race has the smallest penis size on record, then read the article below and all will be made clear.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6161691.stm


199038

Posted by Dragon Star on Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:45 | #

The overwhelming majority of Westerners/white people are equal opportunity haters and lump both Indians/India and Chinese/China into the same cesspool of racist disdain, without any difference.

To be fair, China is still far away from achieving the same level of prosperity that the West and Japan have achieved. China is not yet a developed, first world country. But even at this stage, it is unfair to lump China with India. Any comparision b/w China and India is absolutely ridiculous, as there is no comparision b/w the two, apart from similar population size.

India is a third world slum by any stretch of the imagination. The reason why India is considered 3rd world is because there is no 4th world category, otherwise India would better fit into that category.

Today, China with a per capita income of $4,000 (and still growing), has the humility to admit that it is still a developing country with a lot of work ahead of it.

While the boastful Indians, with their abysmal per capita of $1,000 and high levels of absolute poverty, have already crowned themselves a leading world power.

Rather than their level of IQ, it’s the level of sanity of the Indians that should be up for debate.


199039

Posted by Dragon Star on Sat, 20 Feb 2010 21:17 | #

I have noticed that in all India vs China blogs, the discussions tends to be one sided, i.e. majority of the commentors are Indian jingoists who post ceaseless diatribe against China and often pass racial slurs against Chinese people.

And ofcourse theres the non-stop self-praise and self-hype by Indians about how they are the smartest, richest and greatest in everything in the world and how great their ridiculous dark age culture and silly hocus pocus, cow, elephant, snake, monkey, rat and penis worshipping religion is.

It’s very unfortunate that majority of Chinese people have poor command over English and therefore rarely ever visit these blogs. Otherwise it would be interesting to see what they have to say in reply to the Indian’s diatribe.


199040

Posted by AB on Sat, 20 Feb 2010 21:56 | #

@slumdog

TBH,I am aware that my comment was not completely free of racist elements.And as long as ALL the racist comments are moderated,I have no problems with mine being moderated as well.

The thing is though that it was only a response to half a dozen attacking comments preceding mine.I just made a point that being manly is not about being cold-hearted.If it was so,I would rather prefer to be a woman.And secondly,If India was not ruled for so long and was allowed to industrialize much earlier,then India would be a pretty advanced nation by now.If India’s IQ is low then that is also a direct result of that.But thanks to the flynn effect ,it is on the rise.


Taste of own medicine?What the hell are you talking about dude?NOT A SINGLE Indian racist comments(yes,there are some) have been without provocation,but there are TONS of anti-India comments that begs the question-why do these outsiders care so much about my India?My guess is either theyare trying to provoke a fight between India and China,or they have somehow met the wrong Indians to get a bad impression.

It’s true that their are some hate comments from Indians as well ,but there are so many more from outsiders and none of those Indian comments have been without provocation.
I mean just go through this page 3.What do you find?The Indians are either saying that they are themselves their worst enemy and that they need to wake up,or they are being racist to themselves and dividing into groups or they are arguing that IQ does not matter and there are evironmental factors.

In contrast ,how many outside-people are insulting India(the whole nation) and are provoking a fight between India and China?Like I said,my own comment is preceded by at least half a dozen hate comments.
So,I request the blog owner to moderate ALL racist commments,including my own previous comment.

How would you feel ,if you are told that you/your relatives are genetically less inteligent,less athletic,less hygienic,less manly,less good-looking,less everything?you and some other guys(don’t know if they are same guy with different names) are doing the same to Indians.Is it any surprise that some Indians are replying back?If you cannot take part in a contructive discussion,then please leave,u have no business here.

Oh and about penis size.(this will my last post regarding this topic,as it’s pointless)
you do know that normal size and the size of erection are different ?don’t you?And you do know that true erection is practically impossible to measure under artificial conditions,don’t you?I am not even going to touch upon the kamasutras,tantric massages and stuff like that but the size of penis alone does not determine sexual health.

here is a better one
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jonny5/penis-size-chart-by-ethnicity-aub
as you can clearly see.The Asians beat the caucasians in the 8.7+ category.So, clearly,true erection is better in asia.
And I mean didn’t that Rushton argue that smaller avg.  genitals=greater avg. intelligence?Even by that logic and your article,Indians got to be smarter.


199041

Posted by AB on Sat, 20 Feb 2010 22:06 | #

@Dragon Star

I suppose you are chinese?

All I wanna say is please don’t generalize,I noticed that one or two Indians were insulting the chinese by calling them gooks and monkeys.That’s obviously a very ugly thing to do.But most Indians really don’t have any bad feelings towards China.India itself has many chinese looking people.

Infact,there are many more chinese attackers here.Some Indians did boast,but I think that’s to defend themselves from insults/inferiority remarks.


199042

Posted by Dragon Star on Sun, 21 Feb 2010 02:52 | #

@AB

Many more Chinese attackers here? Where? Most of any attacks against Indians in any blog come from the white people and Pakis. Most Chinese don’t participate in these discussions due to either insufficient knowledge of English or lack of interest.

Yet most Indians lose no time in launching their barrage of vulgar rant against you know who.

And even if the Chinese commentors did “attack”, it wasn’t done first and in no way comparable to the vile invectives hurled by Indians. Which, as I had mentioned earlier, is a common practise by Indian commentors in any India vs China blog. Not just this one.

It’s not just some Indians boasting. A flair for empty boasting and astronomical hyperbole seems to come naturally to most Indians, if not all.

Theres a difference b/w putting up a defence by using logical arguments consistant with facts and resorting to delusional bragging and demeaning tirade.

By many Chinese looking people in India, you probably mean the people that live in the North-Eastern states of India. All of which were never originally part of India. If I’m not mistaken, these people also have some serious grievance concerning discrimination against them, including outright racial animosity directed against them by the majority population. And you try to make it sound as if these people are living in paradise in India.

Your excuses are flimsy.


199043

Posted by Slumdog India on Sun, 21 Feb 2010 03:25 | #

Yo AB!! Nobody gives a toss about your India. It’s the incessant boasting and shameless self-promotion by you Indians that begs a response by “outsiders”.

I couldn’t help laugh my ass off at your ludicrous explanation on how you Indians have a low IQ.

Yeah rite! Blame it all on the white man. Like it was the white men who created and enforced that idiotic caste system of yours, or as if that hilarious culture of yours, where dancing and singing around the rose bush spontaneously, was forced on you by the white man. Both of which are indicative of the Indian people’s screwed up mental state.

You losers should seriously get a life.


199044

Posted by something_1984 on Sun, 21 Feb 2010 13:09 | #

in the past platnum was yang and gold was yin.  It is now time for things to be reversed on all fronts.


199045

Posted by AB on Sun, 21 Feb 2010 19:14 | #

It’s impossible to guess their exact country,but there are definitely more people using vulgar language against India than those against China.

I don’t care what might have happened in any of those of India vs China blogs,but please don’t bring the hatred from there to here.And also this isn’t exactly an India vs China topic.I do not care if China becomes a super power.I do not har china in general and I plan on learning mandarin at some point in my life.All I want is for India to become a 1st world nation by 2030.

You are very misinformed about the north eastern states.They are ALL parts of India.Not only that ,even Nepal was a part of ancient India and so was the rest of Tibet .Unfortunately,we lost them.

Secondly,even outside of north-eastern states,you can find pure chinese faces(such as in Bengal and UP).And purity is not a criteria,then

When I was a school student ,my best friends were chinese looking.India’s football team captain is chinese looking.

And India cares about all of these states as much as it cares about any other state.There are some problems,but they are no more worse than in many other states.The thing is India’s economy needs to get better in order to make everyone happy.

You know very little about India as a country.


199046

Posted by AB on Sun, 21 Feb 2010 19:32 | #

@Dragon Star
The last comment was for you.

@Slumdog
As much I hate to admit,you do have some valid points.Although you are only partially correct.

Caste system is an evil,but the situation with castes have definitely improved though.And people who hate India often magnify the evils of caste system a 100 times.In reality there is no/very-little untouchability practiced in the society(may be in the past,but not now).Moreover,some benefits are given to lower castes like reservations etc.Do the blacks get any special privellage in America or Europe?No.

The west have already done the damage they needed to do.The main culprit that exist today is definitely poverty and poor educational system and bad politics.And India’s spiritual nature of culture also takes attention a bit away from practical things.

And I do not really hate the white people in general.Only some of them who did bad things.


199047

Posted by Punj on Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:53 | #

There is no point in fighting really.We are all related.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjBlZl8RON8

Indians are mainly caucasoids.Although there is also mongoloid blood (especially in the east) and negroid blood (especially in the south).

If genes really do play a role in IQ,then the negroid and mongoloid will cancel each other and our IQ should be somewhere around the caucasoid range.And that is exactly what most of the studies show outside of India (like in UK,SA,Singapore etc) where there is no selective migration.


199048

Posted by Slumdog India on Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:03 | #

Punji boy

I don’t know from where you Indians get the notion that your race is caucasian. As far as I can tell, most Indians are medium to dark brown and resemble the middle easterns and australian aboriginals more than the Europeans.

Apart from your darker complexion, you Indians don’t have any of the typical facial structure of Europeans. Is it your desire to be ethnically related to the white race? Does it make you feel better about your race?

I mean look, your crickter Harbajan Singh is as dark as an African himself, but he has the nerve to call Australian aboriginal crickter Andrew Symmonds a black monkey. LOL!! Look whos calling who a black monkey.

It’s pretty evident that you Indians don’t feel good about your race and want to belong to the white race’s club. Good luck, keep on trying. grin

“If genes really do play a role in IQ,then the negroid and mongoloid will cancel each other and our IQ should be somewhere around the caucasoid range.” I don’t know what you mean by that. To me, it’s a really dumb ass claim and highly contentious if you are trying to say that you Indians (caucasian wannabes) are smarter than the mongoloids.

Just take a look around and you’ll see for yourself that mongoloid countries like Japan, S.Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong are 1st world places and even China is ascending really fast with many world class cities. And Singapore with a Mongoloid majority, is also a developed state.

In comparision, all countries with brown populations like the ones in the Middle East and South Asia are underdeveloped 3rd world slums, with high levels of poverty and destitution. Which also includes India.

Besides, Mongoloids (along with the whites) have played major roles in world history. In contrast, no brown person has impacted world history in any significant way.

If you Indians are really that much smarter, then why aren’t you using all that smartness? Are you hoarding it somewhere? LOL!!


199049

Posted by Guest Lurker on Mon, 22 Feb 2010 05:58 | #

It always perplexes me why it is non-whites even bother frequenting boards such as this. Why do they bother?


199050

Posted by Guest Lurker on Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:13 | #

As to the caste system, it might have been a creation of migrant Indo-Aryan tribes. This is a serious point of contention among Hindu nationalists who resist the idea that any aspects of their culture might be due to non-indigenous elements. However, while they resist the idea of Indo-Europeans migrants into the subcontinent, there has not been any credible argument mounted for the expansion of Indo-Europeans OUT of India and westward, at least not to my knowledge. The genetics at this stage is also confusing. At one point it was thought haplotype R1A was representative of Indo-Euros and that its provenance was Eastern Europe. Recent studies suggest there are even older sub-clades of it in India. Yet others claim that R1A probably originated in China about 21,000 years ago and showed up in Southern Siberia about 20,000 years ago. From this point, 2 branches split- one towards India, the other towards Europe. This interpretation has it that the R1A sub-clade that reached India got there a few thousand years earlier, but another one from the other branch from the Balkans made its way across the steppes and into India as the Indo-Aryans.

Here is that pdf if anyone is interested:

http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf


199051

Posted by Punj on Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:42 | #

Actually Slumdog,I only said that Indians are mainly caucasians(not pure caucasians) and that’s true.Genetically they tend to be much closer to Europeans ,than to Orientals or Negroids.

Here is a chart which was not created by an Indian:

Of course,it isn’t very accurate as the population is actully much more homogenous(due to interbreeding).Also,the australoid part should be placed much more southward than suggested.But you do get the idea.

Nor did I ever say that mongoloids are less IQ people.Your comprehension skill doesn’t look any better than a baby.I said that because mongoloids tend to score higher than caucasians,and negroids lower,and the fact that Indians have both mongoloid and negroid blood in them,the higher IQ genes and lower IQ genes will balance each other out ,leaving the Indian IQ at near the caucasoid range.The Singapore Indians are actually mostly the lowest caste people,yet they score near about 100.Obviously,this verifies my hypothesis.
And I am not a wanna be,I am a proud Indian.

As for mongoloids ,I am not sure if they are really any smarter than Indians.Look at Bhutan and Nepal.These 2 countries have much higher percentage of mongoloids than in India.And being surrounded by mountains,they also have a pretty cold climate compared to their latitude.But they seem to have an even lower IQ than Indians!!

And your face recognition skills seems to be even worse than your reading skills.A typical Indian face is more European looking than both Arabs and Australoids.See the video in my last post.

The reason why Australoids and Indians share similar skin colour has got a lot to with the latitude.

You can easily check that Australia and India are about the same distance away from the equator.It is now a highly accepted theory that you skin colour is determined by the latitude in which you leave.But even so,Indians are still lighter skinned than australoids.

As for Harbhajan,he said an Indian abuse,it was misinterpreted as “Big Monkey” by the australians.I doubt Harbhajan was even aware that in the west they call the black people monkeys(most Indians aren’t aware of it).In India,the term monkey is usually said to the hyperactive and mischeivous people.Mothers often call their children monkey because children tend to be hyperactive.Hell,we even have monkey gods.This only shows that australians think along racist lines.It may be a genetic defect.


199052

Posted by QuickSilver on Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:09 | #

@AB,
“You are very misinformed about the north eastern states.They are ALL parts of India.Not only that ,even Nepal was a part of ancient India and so was the rest of Tibet .Unfortunately,we lost them. ...”

I think you have some misunderstandings about India and I would like to point them out here.  India, as an independent unified political entity does not exist historically.  It takes a British empire to create what we today referred to as India.  Winston Churchill summed it up when he said India is as much a country as the equator is a country.  Even Gandhi himself did not know he was an Indian until he was classified as one when he board a train in South Africa.  Gandhi viewed himself as a Gujarati.  But even at the time of India independence, there are still a lot of territories and princely states that were not part of British India.  Goa, Hyderabad, Sikkim..etc being some of the examples. Immediately after independence, Nehru methodically consolidated all the territories that were not part of the British empire into a contiguous area, often by heavy hand tactics or outright invasion.  The present day North East India, the so-called seven sisters, never want to be part of India but was forcibly incorporated into India.  Even today, the Assamese ...etc. are still fighting for their independence.

In other words India is a country created instantly in 1947 as a result of colonial legacy.  Much like a lot of other countries created as a result of colonialism, it holds together people that has no affinities to each other beyond some vague commonalities like Hinduism.  These peoples have no common language, no common history.  It is because of this realization that Nehru has to set up a department to instill a sense of Indian-ness among its people when the country was first created some 60 years ago.

You said this and that are all part of ancient India reflects a misconception called Arkand Bharat.  It is this mentality that makes India hated by ALL its neighbors.


199053

Posted by Slumdog India on Tue, 23 Feb 2010 04:29 | #

Listen Punji

The average Indian’s facial structure doesn’t look anything like a European.

Europeans have long and narrow faces, deep set eye sockets, slim noses, high cheek bones, angular jaw line. Indians have shorter and broader faces, bulbous noses and dispropotionately bigger eyes.

Those few Indians who do resemble Southern Europeans like Greeks and Italians are probably the result of interbreeding. It may be recalled that many Greek soldiers from Alexander’s army had settled in India.

The only people in Europe who you Indians can claim as your ethnic kindred are the Roma gypsies. They are originally from India and many of them do look like Indians and Pakis.

The question of wether the average mongoloid is smarter than the average Indian or not is best left to the experts to answer. All I can add is that the mongoloid race has achieved much more in history, than brown skin people.


199054

Posted by AB = Liar on Tue, 23 Feb 2010 04:58 | #

Do the blacks get any special privellage in America or Europe?No.

Is this a deliberate lie or are you ignorant of the racial situation in Europe and America?


199055

Posted by Punj on Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:15 | #

@Quick Silver

I am not going to wait for AB,I will reply to your post myself.

I am an Indian and as a result I had to study Indian History.So I am pretty aware of exactly what AB meant.India did exist historically as a common empire at a lot of different times,even before the british empire.Perhaps the most the most prominent one was the maurya dynasty.

The wheel in the Indian flag represents the Ashoka Chakra(a ruler from that time) and it symbolises how India is a unit even in all its diversity.

The concept of “Nation” itself is quite new and only applies to the modern world.
None of the countries that exists now existed as a political entity just a few centuries ago and Gandhi identifying himself as gujrati is no more different than ancient greeks identifying themselves as from a particular city.Does that mean they were not Greeks?It’s because people are not always aware of the ruler’s identity,especially if the empire is big.

And does it even matter what India was in the distant past?India is what it is now.And everyone has accepted it.Even the north-eastern states have accepted that.The few noises that come now and then are caused by the minority of these people,not the majority.

I think the original the original point of the debate was whether these far-east states have Indian or Chinese influence?Obviously the answer is India.The thing is these states have much more in common than just religion.Nepali uses devnagri as a script,same as hindi and Assam uses swaralipi as their script,same as bengali.In tibet ,the two most famous tourist spots Kailash(HIndu god’s name)-Parvat and Manas-Sarovar are completely hindu names.The tibetian language has nothing to with mandarin and has much more in common with Indian languages.And I can bet you that Dalai Lama would much rather prefer to be called an Indian than a Chinese.

The bristish claim that they “created ” India is laughable,because they obviously did nothing but divide it.The “divide and conquer” principle was used to make ruling India easier,it has nothing to do with do with non-existance of india.The word “Bharat” can be found in MANY MANY old literature.India always existed.

@Slumdog

Slumdog,man,it’s pointless to argue with a baby.But still, I will reply to you one more time.You have probably seen some picturtes of hungry dying Indians over the internet to come to draw conclusions.Unfortunately,most of India is rather poor.
But any Indian whose standard of living from childhood matches that of a middle class European(even lower-middle class European),usually look comparable in terms of facial features(I have never said they are identical,but there are strong similarities).In fact,the Indian faces are often more symmetric and proportionate compared to the west and that’s because of the greater genetic diversity found in India.


As for roma gypsies ,they have very caucasian features as well.Give them proper food and proper clothes and many of them will look european.In fact,many gypsies ARE indistuinshable from europeans.


199056

Posted by Guest Lurker on Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:02 | #

Slumdog,man,it’s pointless to argue with a baby.But still, I will reply to you one more time.You have probably seen some picturtes of hungry dying Indians over the internet to come to draw conclusions.Unfortunately,most of India is rather poor.
But any Indian whose standard of living from childhood matches that of a middle class European(even lower-middle class European),usually look comparable in terms of facial features(I have never said they are identical,but there are strong similarities).In fact,the Indian faces are often more symmetric and proportionate compared to the west and that’s because of the greater genetic diversity found in India.

I’ve been to India, and what you’ve written above is nonsense. Even well to do Indians look nothing like Euros, and neither do gypsies. There are politicians in southeast Europe who dress like the local Balkan Euros, and yet they are clearly distinguishable from the indigenes. I’m curious, what exactly is the agenda of someone like yourself that you would take time to seek out a white racialist board and post on it?


199057

Posted by Guest Lurker on Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:04 | #

In the above post, I was referring to gypsy politicians.


199058

Posted by Slumdog India on Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:46 | #

Punji, stop bullshitting!!

Biharis, Gujratis, Tamils, Goans, Bungalees look nothing like European and neither do Poonjabis. The Roma people are easily told apart from the European.

Even Ghandi looked nothing like a European.


199059

Posted by Punj on Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:58 | #

Sorry,I wasn’t really aware that this is supposed to be a racist blog for white people.The thing is that it is very easy to stumble across this kind of blog while searching for something else.

I saw lots of Indians,Chinese and other people posting here and a topic that does not have anything to do with whites.So it never even occured to me that this was supposed to be a blog exclusively for white people.Since that’s the case,this is will be my last comment then.I have no interest in fuelling your racism any more.

Indians are considered caucasian by even many western people.Does that mean they are the same as white?No.But there are definitely similarities in the skull structure.I never said Indians are indistuishable from westerners(the word you used).

I don’t know which well off families you saw in India(and which part of India).OK,may be not all of them.But many well off families,especially those that are highly educated, do indeed look a lot more western than others-if you can get over the skin colour and dress code,that is.(If possible,watch some Indian TV commercials.)

Gypsies often get away by saying that they are spanish,italian etc.It’s a fact.Some of them are indeed very distuingishable,but definitely not all of them.

Among western people,I would say Indians look more like the jews than most of the other groups.Gypsies too.Infact Hitler actually put the jews and gypsies into the same category and discriminated against them.It is indeed true that jews have south asians genes that are not found in the remaining Europeans.

P.S:Again,I don’t mean identical features,just similar features.Indians obviously have some differences.


199060

Posted by I on Wed, 24 Feb 2010 04:11 | #

Posted by Punj on February 23, 2010, 11:15 PM | #

In tibet ,the two most famous tourist spots Kailash(HIndu god’s name)-Parvat and Manas-Sarovar are completely hindu names.The tibetian language has nothing to with mandarin and has much more in common with Indian languages.And I can bet you that Dalai Lama would much rather prefer to be called an Indian than a Chinese.

Have you ever heard of Sino-Tibetan language family? Tibetan and Chinese are of the same origin. And Tibetans and Han-Chinese just look the same. Tibet was never under India’s rule but was a part of China back to 800 years ago. Moreover, India itself was united/created by British for the first time in the past 1000 years.

Buddhism was originated from Nepal and Sakyamuni is a Chinese-looking guy. This explains why Buddhism religion is popular only in East-Asian countries.


199061

Posted by Guest Lurker on Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:04 | #

Buddhism was originated from Nepal and Sakyamuni is a Chinese-looking guy. This explains why Buddhism religion is popular only in East-Asian countries.

And what evidence do you have of this? Just because Christianity became the religion of Europe, does this mean that the Europeans are all genetic semites? From my reading, Buddha is known as the Sage of the Sakyas. Renowned Finnish Indologist, Asko Parpola, believes that the Sakyas were the ancient Indo-Iranic Sakas, from whom the later Scythians and Jats descended. The Jats today still preserve legends of Buddha being a Jat and of the lineage of the solar king, Iksvaku. In the Digha Nikaya, which is the oldest book of the presectarian Pali Canon, it is said that Buddha [DN 3.144] “has blue eyes”.

Do you have alternate information? Also, are you a Chinese?


199062

Posted by Shiva on Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:14 | #

It is safe to say that most of the Indian guys posting here are quite ignorant and boorish. I wonder why they even bothered to say anything. Let me give my two cents worth here.

I am a great admirer of China, and the progress it has made over the past few decades. I think a firefly-esque future for the world is very desirable, where English and Mandarin are the dominant languages (Hindi and Arabic speakers will probably disagree).  Industriousness and hard work are very chinese qualities, qualities which build civilisations. But I find the average chinese person very ignorant about his nation’s past (unless you count Chaiman Mao!). It seems that they have become a nation of soulless factory workers! Not very ‘intelligent’, in my opinion.

I dislike several qualities that are typically found in Indians, like their propensity to jabber endlessly, their laziness, divisiveness, etc. India is also probably the only place where cowardice and non violence are elevated to a virtue. Probably comes from having their arses handed to them so many times in the past. And yes, independence was not won, but rather granted by the Brits who simply became disinterested. But only after looting it dry, breaking its spirit, destroying its traditional systems of thought, imposing a prudish Victorian morality, and reducing it to a nation of beggars. The Indians did not ask you to come to conquer them. Yet, driven by greed, you came. Well, the consequences are just beginning to show. Armed with English, the brightest ones will spread out across the world. You did not honestly think that you could just leave India poor and forget about it, did you? The ‘globalised’ same system that you have set free will come back and haunt you.

I see that a lot of people here equate Hinduism with a backward, animal and penis worshipping religion. That is a very mistaken POV. Unlike the bloody monotheistic religions emanating from the so-called ‘Holy Land’, Hinduism does not expect much from its followers, and allows them to stay true to their native culture and express themselves as that feel like.

Coming to the question of intelligence, I think a nation as rich as India in religious traditions, epics, poetry, languages, systems of thought, logic, etc can rival any other in terms of intelligence. All those who think darkies = dumb can eat their hears out!


199063

Posted by Shiva on Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:18 | #

I have one question which I hope the commentators here can answer: Are we comparing the Intelligence of indians and chinese, or of Aryans and East Asians? While the chinese are a pretty homogeneous in terms of race (at least to me), it is a rather vexing question for the indians. While i will not get into this, i see a gross injustice done to the indians when it comes to historical achievements.

The aryans who did settle down in india in the past, should be considered indians, shouldn’t they? Whatever they wrote, invented, discovered, etc should rightfully be considered indian achievements, not aryan achievements, right? Are not the Brits proud of their Anglo Saxon heritage, even though these tribes were originally ‘invaders’?

I fully support the anti-miscegenation theme in this forum, but the game is not as one sided as you think. indians as a percentage of the population in the US and the UK are increasing (given the low native birth rate, for which the indians are not to blame wink). But the whites didn’t restrain themselves while they were here. According to wikipedia, “Inter-ethnic marriages between European men and Indian women were very common during colonial times. According to the historian William Dalrymple, about one in three European men (mostly British, as well as Portuguese, French, Dutch, and to a lesser extent Swedes and Danes) had Indian wives in colonial India”. The descandant community is around 600,000 strong today, and, nobody here talks about ‘repatriating’ them. They are quite proud of their heritage (as all indians, regardless of their colour are) and are doing very well. What do the ‘honourable’ whites here have to say about that?


199064

Posted by Slumdog Hot-aire on Sat, 06 Mar 2010 20:36 | #

East Asian majority countries are prosperous and progressive.

South Asian majority countries are poverty stricken, backward and prone to social and political strife.

What more proof do you want to show that East Asians have superior intellect?


199065

Posted by Ashok on Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:03 | #

Comments by Dragon Star and Shiva have brought some semblance of decency to this crapfe… err.. debate. They represent the level-headed numbers from China and India and the hope for the future.

I personally agree that we have a lot to learn from East Asia. Forty years ago South Korea had a lower per capita income than India. Today SK companies have cornered the Indian car market. In the face of all evidence it is baffling to see the racist malice the urban Indian, primarily for the north reserves for the East Asian. To most Indians there will be no difference in perception of a Nepali and a Japanese, that in itself says how superficial and geographically challenged we are as a people inspite of all the claims to great refinement in culture.

Now the good news: the Indian IQ is nowhere as low as Lynn calculated with his sample size drawn from the muckiest and poorest interiors of the country. It may not be as high as its Chinese equivalent but it is definitely not as low as North Africa or the Middle East.


199066

Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:09 | #

Ashok,

It would be interesting to know where you would intuit the pan-Indian IQ, and whether you think Pakistan and Bangladesh would vary.  Care to take a stab at it?


199067

Posted by Gupta on Wed, 17 Mar 2010 01:25 | #

Ashok

You’re right about specially northern Indians. They are the scum of the earth. Even when they migrate to other countries, they take their dirty habits with them. They are cheap racists and very jealous. Yet as history proves, they have no problem kissing the ass of foreign conquerers. They are cowardly and shameless as well.

Another good point you have made, is that Indians, despite all the hype and boasting about their ancient civilization and culture, hardly behave in civilized and cultured way. Most Indians are ill-mannered and uncouth. Indians are hippocrates who only know how to boast but never show action to match their boasts.

Chinese are focused and goal oriented. Unlike Indians, they act more and talk less. That pretty much explains why China is light years ahead of India and will always be light years ahead of India.


199068

Posted by Ashok on Sun, 21 Mar 2010 00:11 | #

The pan-Indian IQ could be in the early 90s as someone commented previously. Pakistan would rank lower, Bangladesh near about the same or slightly higher. It is complex comparing India to Bangladesh as they would one-up each other in their abysmal rankings alternately on indexes such as literacy rates and malnutrition.

Historically however the Bengalis have won more Nobel prizes than any other south asian group and Bangladesh is routinely outdo Indians in international programming contests (this one is the hardest to ignore) But again these are just indicators and could be just because of their robust intellectual tradition. They have had a brain food rich fish diet though, for centuries.

Gupta, I agree with some of what you say. To ascribe a single tendency to a sixth fraction of humanity with thousands of circles and their intersections is fraught with risk of overkill. And the groups you mention are so boxed-in and scarred that the more you beat them down on forums the harder they will come down on us and upon themselves. Chinese are everything you say, and also not as constantly at odds with themselves.


199069

Posted by dave on Mon, 22 Mar 2010 07:37 | #

What race are Bengali people? Some of them look like Oriental(Mongolic race), are they some kind of mix?


199070

Posted by Mythslayer on Thu, 25 Mar 2010 23:25 | #

RJ please get yourself educated & get out of the old idiotic theory that caste was based on race because it’s not and the proof is in the pudding.

The so called “lowly” Dravidians outperform Northerners.

There is no real concrete racial division between Northeners and Southerners but Southerners on average tend to be darker in India just like in Italy and they tend to speak the Dravidian languages unlike the Northeners who speak languages derived from Sanskrit. Unlike in Italy though they tend be higher performing than North Indians.

Now that we got the basics right, let me educate you a bit about your misconceptions.

The most developed region of India as a whole is the “Dravidian” South & Bangalore is the Southern city where IT jobs are being mainly outsourced.

Ramanujan one of the most brilliant mathematicians of the 20th century was a dark skinned Southerner from Tamilnadu the southern most & darkest state of India.

So is Subramanya Chandrasekhar & CV Raman who won Nobels in Physics.

Steve Sailer I believe has dicussed this also.


199071

Posted by Mythslayer on Thu, 25 Mar 2010 23:35 | #

Ashok one of those was Tagore who won it in literature.

Another is Muhammad Yunus who won it for peace.

Amartya Sen the socialist dhimmi won it for economics.

I need not repeat that it’s much harder to win a Nobel in Physics (& other hard sciences) like Raman & Chandrasekhar where decisions are much less influenced by political considerations than in economics and peace.

West Bengal was also a communist basket case till very recently.


199072

Posted by IQ is not the most serious issue with Indians on Sat, 03 Apr 2010 03:05 | #

India is such a dirt poor 3rd cesspool that makes up-Sahara countries look like paradise. Why can’t you Indian talents stay home and help your countrymen suffer less? Last time I checked, according to Bloomberg, more than 800 million Indians defecate in the open @http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?sid=aErNiP_V4RLc&pid=20601109. Those who do go to toilets just use bare hand to wipe @htttp://www.pbase.com/jtodhunter/indian_toilet. You may say it is a cultural issue or none of your business hygiene issue. But, it WILL be global environmental issues if India does nothing to control her population and work hard on these large scale unhygienic habits.


199073

Posted by Ricola on Sun, 04 Apr 2010 07:19 | #

I read the link above

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?sid=aErNiP_V4RLc&pid=20601109

and it says that some 665 millions Indian practice open defecation, not 800 millions.

Then I google ‘India open defecation’ and found this link:

http://www.indiatogether.org/2007/jul/hlt-squat.htm

and it says that some Indian reverts to open defecation even toilet is available.  And the reason suggested is that ‘most Indians suffer from claustrophobia once inside an enclosed toilet’.


199074

Posted by Person on Sun, 11 Apr 2010 20:26 | #

West media is guilty of hyping up the fallacy of Indian coming superpower status. Whole India is now right on this steroid and wholeheartedly believes that India is a tech superpower. The facts of matters are that Indians on average are very low IQ. International IQ study experts estimates that Indian’s average IQ is 81. The IQ stats well explains why 600-700 million Indians can not even write their own names and majorities of Indians live below sub-Sahara countries living standards. While Indian upper caste elite blogs here bragging wildly, most Indians do not have clean water to drink, have no electricity, and suffer from no sewage system. Hundreds of millions Indian urinate and defecate in the open.

Mr. Singh told the BBC that more than 65% of India’s population defecated in the open, along roadsides, railway tracks and fields, generating huge amounts of excrement every day @http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4742929.stm.  These include so-called middle class. Majorities of Indians actually can not afford toilet paper so that they have to use bare hand to wipe their as$. The sewage/sanitary system are so bad so that politician offer toilet for a parliament seat. http://www.indax.com/trculture.html  .

Because of the low average IQ, Indians are prone to believe all sort of phony stats as facts as long as they hype up Indian supremacy. People LOL when Indians brag that Indians make up 50% NASA scientists, 40% Microsoft and started 1/3 American high-tech startup. These bogus stats are internet hoax to make fun of Indian braggart nature. However, hundreds of millions of Indian believe these funny stats. It is understandable that average low IQ Indians are prone for these lies. However, it is stunning that even Indian parliament also believe these hoaxes. Indians government official also cite these bogus stats to declare Indian dominance in US, making Indian government a laughing stock of itself. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indians_in_NASA_Govt_falls_for_net_hoax/articleshow/2856295.cms India.ns are opting to complain the stupidity of their government. They conveniently forget they elect them themselves.

    It makes me laugh to see all of the incorrect facts in here. First of all, when you say that the Indians elect their officials, it reminds me of the Western side as well; they complain about their government, and frequently forget that they are the ones who elected them. Also, a low IQ has nothing to do with defectation. You are wandering off the subject and evidently want to harass the Indian race to an extreme. Stay on topic! I’m only going off topic myself to correct the false information you dished out so easily. Start acting mature and deal with the article, not your evidently rascist opinions. As with the IQ information of the main article, I am wondering if you have taken the stats from every area in India; another comment said the data was only taken from the northern parts of India within a disadvantaged group of people. Is this true? Thanks.


199075

Posted by Ashok on Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:30 | #

I think most Indians who think India is on par to overtake China fall into two categories

1. Indians who have never stepped out of the country.
2. NRIs who have never visited India.

Another factor that will tilt the scales is that the smartest Chinese who study in the west eventually return to China. It is hardly the same in India’s case.

If Confucian China was not already historically a meritocratic society, the CCP’s theme of rapid development at all costs has hardwired a savage competitiveness into the average Chinese that would be tough for Indians conditioned to hate their bureaucracy and ignore the systemic inefficiences to match. I shiver at the thought of what 50 million East Asians in South Korea achieved in 30 yrs, and 120 million in Japan after devastation in the world war. Imagine 1.5 billion of them under a Communist regime. India must not adopt a confrontational position vis-a-vis China, not militarily atleast in any case.

Only yesterday China posted 11.2% GDP growth figures, announced its first indigenously built Maglev train, while India’s space rocket with an indigenous cryogenic engine failed its launch.


199076

Posted by such bolo on Sun, 18 Apr 2010 01:36 | #

@Ashok

Well said buddy. You’r one of those rare desis who can speak the truth instead of being arrested by a false sense of patriotic fervour.

Indians have easier access to cell phones than to toilets. If this is the hi-tech India that so many Indians attempt to boast about, then India shouldn’t be comparing with China.


199077

Posted by such bolo on Sun, 18 Apr 2010 01:40 | #

Atleast the Chinese know which necessity comes first in order of precedence, in it’s endeavour to progress.


199078

Posted by such bolo on Sun, 18 Apr 2010 01:52 | #

Indians seem to be obsessed with trying to win a juvenile game of one upmanship with China, without even having a clue on how to get their priorities straight first. A game which India never had any chance of winning. Most Indians exhibit an outrageous lack of maturity and rationality.


199079

Posted by losers!! on Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:29 | #

How many of you have degrees for christ’s sake? Simply jumping at things that are not well described or well founded. IQ is not a proper measure. Its not proven.

IQ test has vocabulary and verbal skill tests, i don’t even know if these tests are offered in native languages. Brain can be exercised and academic training will directly affect the IQ score. We are as intelligent as we work on our brain. Simple.


199080

Posted by Ashish Sach on Sun, 25 Apr 2010 10:43 | #

@losers

Is not the same parameters (about tests not being in native language) apply to chinese as well.

Mandarin and other Chinese languages are way different from English.

Indians are learning English for at least last two centuries , while Chinese have just begun two decades back.


In spite of that Chinese being able to average an IQ of 105 against 84 for Indians speaks volumes.


199081

Posted by arjun on Sun, 02 May 2010 07:17 | #

@losers!!

I fully agree with you man.Whatever India is,we can get always get better.There is no harm in dreaming.In fact,they say fiction is the mirror of a culture and if I have noticed anything,it’s the fact that advanced nations are bigger dreamers than us.I think the main culprit for this is our poor economy and a “spiritual” culture which takes attention away from materialistic goals.

Oh,and all these based on some stupid book by Lynn?It’s pretty obvious from things like the flynn effect that Wealth raises IQ ,not the other way around.

I wonder who are these people who keep taking Indian names and saying the worst things about India?Are these some chinese having Indian friends(perhaps in the US).Are these peole from countries like Nepal(Nepal is a hindu country mind you)?Are these Pakis?Are these Vietnamese people who have studied hinduism?Are these Lankans?(Shouldn’t Lanka be genetically more similar to us?)

I don’t think these people are Indians.No decent person can bad mouth their homeland in such an ugly disrespectful way.

India is also probably the only place where cowardice and non violence are elevated to a virtue

This one is a little hard to digest.Are you putting cowardice and non-violence in the same bracket?Are you saying that violence is a desirable quality?Do you even know the difference between bravery and violence?Perhaps ,according to you,dropping the atomic bomb was an act of bravery?Or perhaps you view Gandhi or Buddha as a coward?In the modern world,empathy is required.


199082

Posted by Threester on Sun, 02 May 2010 17:34 | #

I found something on the internet:

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/podcasts/India_China_Border.mp3

It is a podcast.  Download it and listen.  Interesting stuff.


199083

Posted by Shankar on Sun, 02 May 2010 18:26 | #

Yeh baat bilkul sahi hai kay:
Though both countries are faced with many problems, it is China that has the real superpower potential.
India is mostly media hype on overkill.
China is a disiciplined nation, while India is chaotic.
India may be showing impressive growth figures, but alongside those impressive growth figures are equally impressive inflation and population growth figures.
India has nothing but dismal failures to show as it’s superpower potential.
Like Arjun tank, Tejas jet, Arihaant submarine, Tata Nano car, Chaandryaan moon probe and most recently the failed cryogenic rocket.
Indian military and police are pathetic crap, that get easily butchered by rag tag rebels like Naxalites and Islamic terrorists.
It is OK to dream, but to be a great nation, one must posses the ability to render those dreams into reality and not just keep on dreaming.
Why so many Indians are running after green card or any other citizenship that can get them out of India?
In general, most Indians want to get the hell out of India. And this proves that India is not as great or shining as made to be by media hype. 
MEIN BILKUL SAACH BOOL RAHA HOON! CHAAHAY AAP MAANAY YA NAHEIN


199084

Posted by Peter Wong on Mon, 03 May 2010 10:40 | #

I applaud all the level-headed humans who had the decency to stop all these nonsense. All humans are capable of achieving high IQ growth, we just need the proper environment and economic conditions. Whether you are Black, Blue, White or Green, everyone has the potential. Humans should be concentrating on protecting mother earth and making the world a better place for our next generation. We don’t need another world war to prove who is better. We might not even have another world after that.


Sincerely,
Peter Wong


199085

Posted by Frank on Mon, 03 May 2010 22:26 | #

Mr. Wong,

who wants world war? That’d be dreadful.

Have you ever met a black person? I suggest you do before lecturing on how race doesn’t exist.

Northeast Asians are very capable… Blacks are not. Live in denial if you will. I live in a half black area, so I know the truth.


199086

Posted by DarkSoul on Thu, 06 May 2010 09:10 | #

What in the name of—?! Jeez! I don’t believe I just wasted almost an entire hour going through all the drivel posted in the comments, hoping to find SOME semblance of maturity and simple sense, only to be left with a sense of disappointment and a very bad taste in my mouth. It is incredibly sad to see the level the global community has fallen to, if these are the sentiments commonly held by most of the global population, be it Westerners, East Asians, South Asians, South-east Asians, people from the Indian subcontinent, Africa, even some goddarned researcher sitting in Antarctica, for all I care.

Come on people. Doesn’t the world around us have enough problems as it is? How the fuck can you be so conceited? I personally believe that this post was originally meant to discuss simply the variable rate of IQ across the world, based on differences as perceived and observed on the basis of racial and/or geographical demarcations. This is NOT a place for you to spout your racist bile at members from other races.

To everyone, Westerner or not, (primarily Westerners, from what I’ve read), go focus on your improvement. Instead of trying to shout down other people, and expressing your insecurity about this so-called “threat” from nations like China and India, prove to them that you have what it takes to reclaim your “glory of yore”, as some of you like to put it. The reason why the West is considering these nations and their brethren as threats today is because of their rapid development over the last couple of decades, especially since the ‘90s. The West, complacent in its own sheltered cocoon and with its “oh-we-are-so-better-than-you” attitude, has suffered simply because it made the mistake of underestimating the rest of the world. This has proved to be a costly mistake, and the results are up for show.

To the people from China, India, Australia, Africa, and any other country or region of the world, who feel they have been the target of racist attacks here or elsewhere, deal with it. Differentiation between “us” and “them” is a centuries-old human mindset and no amount of campaigning or whining and complaining about it is going to help. You simply have to work with what you get and make the best of it. And in recent years, you have shown that YOU can work and progress, despite setbacks and opposition. Judging from most parameters, this is going to be YOUR decade, make the most of it.

To the people who have tried to moderate things online here, and keep the flow of shit in check, thanks a lot. DragonStar, Ashok, AB, Peter Wong, Such Bolo, and all the others who I have forgotten, the world needs more progressive minds like you. Keep up the good work, and let’s hope that we get to see more and more people like you guys and girls take an active role in international affairs and relations. The World needs more Heroes… wink

And finally, a response in advance to anyone who thinks I’m spouting crap and who wishes to start flaming again by carving a personal vendetta against me, two words - F.U.C.K Y.O.U! If you are so insecure that you feel threatened simply by a random guy expressing his views online through a post, go cry to your mommy. Or better still, go hang yourself or drink cyanide or something and rid us the sheer exasperation of having to tolerate dickheads like you, and the necessity to find and kill you. The world is a very small place, and you can never be too safe. You have been warned…

Peace! Freedom Forever! _\m/


199087

Posted by Shiva on Thu, 06 May 2010 13:42 | #

Looks like there a lot of Indians who are of the opinion that China is superior….thats understandable, as treachery and being obsequious are very Indian traits again.

To Frank - who here denies that race exists? Where did that enter the picture? Thats like denying the difference between a greyhound and a beagle!
However you also said that blacks are not capable - wtf are you to judge them? I’m sure there exist men so capable that they could make you look like a boor, a savage.


199088

Posted by thoreaulylazy on Sun, 09 May 2010 07:34 | #

Josh,

I don’t know where you get your numbers.  You wrote “Jews @ 113 IQ.  Al Einstein and others” citing IQ and Wealth of Nations.  Yet, if you look at the table from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

Israel - 94
Ireland - 93


Also,
Lynn corrected for the Flynn effect in a linear-to-time manner.  That is, if he had IQs for a country from 1952, then he would normalize it for 2002 by adding k*50 to the IQ.  Because the underlying cause of the Flynn effect is mostly nutrition, a linear-to-time adjustment assumes nutrition advanced equally across all nations.  Because certain countries had a low baseline for their average nutrition, they would be under-adjusted using a linear-to-time approach.


Moreover,
Lynn did not have IQ numbers for China.  He had IQ numbers for Shanghai and Beijing.  If you read the wikipedia page I linked to earlier, you’ll find this statement: “For People’s Republic of China, the authors used a figure of 109.4 for Shanghai and adjusted it down by an arbitrary 6 points because they believed the average across China’s rural areas was probably less than that in Shanghai. Another figure from a study done in Beijing was not adjusted downwards.”


I would also urge you to keep in mind that the strength of a nation is NOT in its median IQ (which is the only number this thread for some reason preoccupies itself with).  The tail 1% is what drives a nation.  A thousand extra people of IQ 105 cannot replace a single person of IQ 185.  This is why women are not as successful as men in the higher end, even though their mean IQ are practically the same.  The distribution of IQ for men is simply wider, and therefore the 99th pctile IQ for men is far above the 99th pctile IQ for woman.  This thread needs to obtain the 99th pctile IQs across nations/races, not waste its time on the median IQ.  A nation can (and often have) send its middle classes as cannon fodder in wars and not change the destiny of the country one iota;  it must, however, protect and nurture its intelligentsia.


199089

Posted by JAI HO on Mon, 10 May 2010 22:31 | #

Chinese are definately smarter than Indians.

Why else do leaders of both, powerful and not so powerful states go to China, but not India, for help in matters of global importance? What clout does India have on the world stage? (India’s foreign policy initiatives don’t go much beyond the catfight with Pakistan).

SO WHAT THE HELL IS ALL THIS PHONEY COMPARISION B/W CHINA AND INDIA ALL ABOUT?

APART FROM POPULATION SIZE, IS THERE ANY REAL COMPARISION B/W THE TWO?


199090

Posted by Frank on Mon, 10 May 2010 23:58 | #

Shiva,

we’re discussing races not individuals. I’m sure there are many individuals who surpass me, but blacks are very different from whites and East Asians.

You have civilised races and you have hunter-gatherer races. Blacks are of the latter. I live with blacks. Have you ever met one?

My society bends over backwards to promote blacks, and it’s nigh impossible to find competent ones. “Token blacks” are to be found everywhere. Government jobs are filled overwhelmingly by blacks to ensure they’re employed.

Claiming blacks are equal or even near the same in intelligence as whites or East Asians is simply wrong.

-

The only reason I’m concerned with China is because it looks like a burgeoning empire. I don’t want to see a reverse Opium Wars take place. I also wish for America’s empire to shrink.

If the Chinese state turns into an empire, the Chinese people (as well as many other peoples) will suffer. Some might take great pride or for a few generations enjoy great wealth, but they’ll ultimately end up as the West has.

America is an older superpower, take it from an American: you don’t want to make a Faustian bargain for empire. Keep your soul, and reject the empire.


199091

Posted by WEI YAO on Tue, 01 Jun 2010 08:22 | #

both chinese and japanese speak very bad english.we don’t learn much english because our books are writen in our own language,how about indian/they learn english since they were born ,all the books are writen in english.thats one of the reasons that indian have more people working for call-centre.


199092

Posted by sup on Fri, 04 Jun 2010 06:19 | #

yet all the indians in the USA are geniuses. Seriously, all the indians i know (more than 10) took calculus before highschool and maintained A+ in all the most advanced classes possible. but india is very impoverished, and only the well-off come to America, which is why indians there have low IQ but indians here are so smart.


199093

Posted by cha on Fri, 04 Jun 2010 06:23 | #

I doubt that the aboriginals’ average IQ is 60. That would mean that the average aboriginal is severely mentally retarded and cannot take care of themselves - and 50% of them are even worse than them. that would mean for every aboriginal with an average IQ of 100, there is one with an IQ of 20 - pretty much brain-dead. that is utter bull****.


199094

Posted by shiva on Fri, 04 Jun 2010 06:49 | #

Frank, Thanks for the well worded response.

I have never lived with blacks around me, so I guess I should (at least partially) take your word for it.

You then mention “You have civilised races and you have hunter-gatherer races”. If memory serves me right, I read somewhere that Europeans (esp. in the north) started off as hunter-gatherers too! How these hunter gatherers went on to create the wonderlands of present day Scandinavia (where I have been) is beyond me though.

I however, do believe that some races cannot, and should not mix (both socially and biologically). I just cant imagine a black man in, say, Denmark, or a Dane in Central Africa, living according to the norms of the respective socities.

Coming back to the point of India v/s China, I sincerely feel that China’s economic progress has been possible because of the Communisty Party’s authoritarian hold on power. I feel that a ‘good’ dictator can achieve much more in a short span of time than a bumbling, well-meaning democracy, at the cost of the lives of a few million people, like China did. Both our countries have a tremendous baggage of history, culture, etc (more so with India, where language, religion, region and caste can create a socity that can behave extremely fragmented at times…I dont expect westerners to understand this). What I do feel is that whatever progress India has made is despite the government’s best efforts smile
This lends a more human, dynamic face to India, where the people are not mere puppets controlled by strings from above.

But The ethos that justified the taking of these lives for the cost of progress just cannot be found in India - we here are far too soft for that stuff. This is a weakness, for sure. We call ourselves cultured and civilised, but I think its a great credit to a civilisation that it can make certain ‘sacrifices’ for a better tomorrow - this has happened everywhere in the developed world. The test for India will be to develop a model that works without the strings from the top or the human sacrifices.


199095

Posted by shiva on Fri, 04 Jun 2010 06:54 | #

As for the empire and faustian deal with the devil, I think its about time some superpowers or semi-superpowers developed in the east. I believe its finally our time to shine, and no one can take that away from us (except ourselves!)

This may also work out to the West’s advantage - it will definitely lessen the hordes of brownies and chinks that flood your gates!


199096

Posted by shiva on Fri, 04 Jun 2010 07:51 | #

Let me add an additional post on an unrelated topic.

I have long been fascinated by western culture and psyche. In the thoughts of most Americans, and particularly Brits that I have met (not to mention the movies), there is an almost self-destructive quality. Self-destructive in the sense of a definite lack of respect/concern for the social mores and thoughts, a quality of deadly sarcasm/unconcern towards established practices. This may just be the manifestation of youth (or booze!), or the characteristics of a society that places the individual above the collective - I do not know, but I wont deny that I was thrilled in a way, as this was something new and exciting to me.

But it bothers me when the western media denounces the efforts of other socities to preserve their culture and tradition. Eg - in the recent case homosexuality case in Malawi, the government’s decision was denounced in all the western magazines that I read. Contrast this to the Indian responses to the article in newspapers, which ranged from mild surprise to agreement with the court’s ruling. Similarly, when the Iranians fight hard to preserve their culture (I dont agree with most of Islam’s ideals or methods, let me say) it is looked down on in the west. Certainly, a sort of cultural imperialism is still prevalent, where the west is trying to impose its own cultural mores on others. Let me put it this way - homosexuality was a non-topic in India until very recently, until certain western women took it upon themselves to awaken the Indian masses to it. Completely uncalled for, imho.


199097

Posted by Jai nahin ho ga on Sun, 06 Jun 2010 21:22 | #

How can Indians have a higher IQ when the majority of them have minds that are filled with thoughts of jealousy, hate, greed, selfishness, inferiority complex, false pride, conceit and sexual pervasion (due to being sexually frustrated)?

Let’s be honest. Most Indians today lack the ability of critical though and self reflection. Both of which are essential elements for any civilization to strive furthur and expand it’s horizons.

Boasting about how many Indian doctors, engineers, scientists, academics, CEOs and billionaires in other countries is nothing to be super proud over. Rather it is a reflection on what an abysmal place, India is to live in for the vast majority of Indians. Who can only dream of settling abroad, in any country where there is a superior standard of living. The proof of this is that Indians have now overtaken the Chinese as the largest group of immigrants settling in other countries around the world.

While many Chinese people have and are returning to China to seek opportunities. As are a lot of foreigners who are going to China nowadays to seek opportunities. For business, and increasingly for employment. Though the latter group of foreigners going to China nowadays is not yet as large as the former group, it is growing steadily.

Just as in ancient times, Rome was a magnet for people seeking opportunities. America became the Rome of present times, until recently. Now China is showing strong signs of becoming the next Rome.

Could this have been achieved if Chinese people didn’t have the superior IQ?

Do Indians, with their primitive and superstitious culture, honestly think they have the cerebral power to make India (with all it’s filth, corruption, uncouthness and general disregard for order and discipline), into a place where not just Indians but also foreigners would like to live in? Rather the opposite is true for India.

All those Indians who dispute the veracity of the results of the IQ survey, should ask themselves the questions in the paras above.


199098

Posted by IndiaCynic on Sun, 06 Jun 2010 22:16 | #

Shiva, enough gabbing. India is awesome paradise. We all agree. Now lets start working for it. No? Most Indians want 9-5 jobs and easy jacks up their professional careers preferrably through bribes and personal favours. You would all but admit that man to man indians need to match up to the chinese, you would rather retreat into obscurantism for your own consumption or of others that it is so because of their Communist government. Maybe. But have you considered that Taiwan, the other Chinese country, is also 1st world, unlike say Pakistan or Bangladesh, the other ‘Indian’ countries. I guess it makes me obsequois to speak the truth. I don’t care anymore, its just frustrating living around so many mediocre, dishonest gasbags (except the southerners who deserve a new beginning, if you know what I mean) who don’t want to introspect and correct their shortcomings. Don’t fret about this so much, every post by a Chinese backer doesn’t have to be met by a counter post to prop up the dignity of your famed land whether here or on the businessworld comments section. Some day the people here will come over the Bollywood curtain and find out the truth, when this comment together with yours would probably have vanished into irrelevance and obscurity. But what will remain are the tangible realities.


199099

Posted by AriyaMagga on Sun, 13 Jun 2010 22:55 | #

Indians have higher SAT scores than Chinese do, Indians are also better at English, Indians also achieve more than the Chinese do in the US

Average IQ is irrelevant and doesn’t matter since with a population of a billion+ gathering accurate IQ data is difficult.


199100

Posted by theOneWithoutASecond on Sun, 13 Jun 2010 22:56 | #

India’s average IQ thing is BS

Here’s the average IQ in the US:
Jew (European, American).  .  .  .  .  115
Asian (in the U.S.)  .  .  .  .  .  .  108
East Indian (from India, in the U.S.)  108
U.S. White (Northern European, Urban)  105
U.S. White (Southern European).  .  .  100
U.S. White (Rural, South)  .  .  .  .  95
U.S. Black (North and West).  .  .  .  90
Hispanic-American .  .  .  .  .  .  .  90
U.S. Black (Rural, South)  .  .  .  .  85

Indians are much smarter than the Chinese in terms of science and mathematics, that’s why India has produced better mathematicians and physicists than China has in the last centuries.

India produced physicist Satyendra Nath Bose who made some of the most important contributions in physics with Einstein-Bose condensate. He’s ranked as one of the greatest physicist in history. There’s no Chinese physicist who’s made any contribution as significant as Satyendra Nath Bose alone in the last century.

India produced the self-taught prodigy genius mathematician Ramanujan. Ramanujan was poor, uneducated, living far away from other mathematicians, and malnourished but had an innate ability for mathematics that according G.H. Hardy surpassed even the famous mathematician David Hilbert. Some of Ramanujan’s methods are used for string theory mathematics today as well as other things. There’s no Chinese mathematician who even comes close to matching up to Ramanujan.

When mathematicians list the top ten best mathematicians of all time Ramanujan usually makes the list, but NO Chinese mathematician ever makes the list of even the top 25 mathematicians in all of time. There’s probably lots of other Indians like Ramanujan but because of poverty they remain unknown, Ramanujan almost remained unknown to world because of poverty.

Since Indians contributed more to science and mathematics this indicates that not only are Indians smarter but also more creative, and everybody knows that creativity matters more to the growth of science than answering IQ test questions, and that creativity is a higher form of intelligence.

India’s economy is also growing faster. The only thing the Chinese do is mimic and copy because although they may have high IQs they have no creativity. IQ without creativity is useless to society. India’s history, culture, spirituality indicates that Indians also have more creativity.


199101

Posted by Madarchod Indians on Mon, 14 Jun 2010 01:38 | #

Indians always boast about how well Indians are doing in the US. How come Indians aren’t smart enough to make India do well, if Indians are really that smart?

Indians are only good at utilizing and consuming what others produce, but don’t produce anything themselves. They always wait for others to create prosperous and developed societies first. Then they migrate to those societies enmasse, in order to exploit the opportunities created by the people of that society.

Indians are only smart enough to prosper through what others initiate, but are unable to initiate anything themselves. Thats why India is a dirt poor shithole that is only good at producing immigrants who don’t want to live in their own country.


199102

Posted by IndiansAreSmart on Mon, 14 Jun 2010 02:27 | #

25% of India represents the top highest IQs, meaning India has more honor students than America has students. People here don’t even know what the word “average” means mathematically, it doesn’t mean most people. Economies change from time to time and don’t necessarily reflect intelligence, just look at places like Ukraine and Russia with bad economies.

Everybody knows that East Indians are smart, seriously, the smartest boy in the world Pranav Veera is East Indian with an IQ of 176 at only age 6

Even poor Indians without an education or good health like Ramanujan end up being the best mathematicians rivaling Euler and Gauss.


199103

Posted by Drifter on Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:12 | #

I looked up the Fields medalist (often regard as the Nobel prize of Mathematics) and didn’t see a single Indian or people of Indian heritage made to the list.  Enough said.


199104

Posted by Troll Detector on Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:13 | #

Hey “IndiansAreSmart” -

If you all really are so “smart”, then please stay in your own country—since your backward, primitive and highly unintelligent fellow countrymen (who are the absolute majority of India) need you far more than we do.

Otherwise you are an envious, mendacious hypocrite.


199105

Posted by Kulak on Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:22 | #

Would many of you non-Whites PLEASE STOP using this blog to take out your obsessive and envious self-hatred against us White Americans here.

This is our blog, and this is our home. Isn’t it enough that you all have virtually the rest of our country at your disposal to manipulate and exploit—cannot us real Americans and real Westerners have even a stinkin blog where we can be left alone.


199106

Posted by IndiansAreSmart on Tue, 15 Jun 2010 03:10 | #

@TrollDetector / disgusting racist

Why didn’t Europeans stay in their own country and instead come to America then? By your own reasoning all the European immigrants are all hypocrites, envious, and mendacious then right? History shows Europeans immigrated the most. By the way those people like Satyendra Nath Bose and Ramanujan were in India not America or any European country. History shows that people travel, migrate, and that economies change from time to time dummy. Economies don’t remain constant but are unsteady and ever-changing unlike what these foolish racists really believe. They’re so funny with their foolishness.

Prior to the British coming to India India had a much better economy that’s why Columbus was trying to travel to India. After the British fucked it up it’s terrible now and only starting to recover, but India’s economy is starting to grow faster now and recover. It’s only been in these short 400-years that the primitive unintelligent Europeans have been ruling, they were so primitive that the highest technology Anglo-Saxons and Nordics ever independently came up with was cave paintings so they traveled all over the world and raped, killed, and stole information from everyone else.

Whenever the environmental factors and socioeconomic factors are the same Indians perform better than the Chinese and European, why is this? The only way Europeans and Chinese can appear superior is by gaining an unfair environmental advantage. I understand that you’re foolish so you probably don’t even know that science or a control is. Gaining IQ data of different races in different countries, different education levels, different school systems, different environments, different socioeconomic backgrounds, etc…isn’t controlled data and therefore can be influenced by any number of factors or variables. Gaining IQ data of different races in the same country, same environment, same school system, etc…is more reliable and controlled. But I don’t expect that you would be able to understand this.

Studies have also shown that IQ and financial success have no correlation, “Being more intelligent does not confer any advantage along two of the three key dimensions of financial success (income, net worth and financial distress)” - Zagorsky

You didn’t refute any statement I made you just spread racist hatred, tell lies and feel bad the smartest boy in the world Pranav Veera is East Indian

Oh yeah without Indians you would still be using shitty Roman Numerals and have no concept of zero, and many mathematics, scientific, and engineering advancements would’ve never been made without those things alone. The Arab Al-Khwarizmi had to introduce numerals to world in his book “On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals”

Arabs, Chinese, Europeans, etc…all copied off from Indians as history shows, so many English words come from Sanskrit, the numeric system, the number zero, and many other things are directly copied


199107

Posted by Kulak on Tue, 15 Jun 2010 06:22 | #

Oh yeah without Indians you would still be using shitty Roman Numerals and have no concept of zero, and many mathematics, scientific, and engineering advancements would’ve never been made without those things alone. The Arab Al-Khwarizmi had to introduce numerals to world in his book “On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals”

Idiot, that was when the “Indians” were still (largely unmixed) Indo-European Aryans, not the little brown people they are today (and why they are a disgusting third world country).

Buzz off you envious third world jerk.


199108

Posted by Troll Detector on Tue, 15 Jun 2010 06:46 | #

Why didn’t Europeans stay in their own country and instead come to America then? By your own reasoning all the European immigrants are all hypocrites, envious, and mendacious then right? History shows Europeans immigrated the most. ...

No you arrogant twirp, America is a European-diaspora land—a country built and sustained by and for White Europeans—and especially Northern European Anglo-Celts.

How dare you put non-Whites in the same category! Non-Whites are here for one thing and one thing only - to exploit and manipulate off the backs of White Americans. You people cannot create anything with substance without a White man around and supervising it all, (just like it was British and American engineers that took those “intelligent” Arabs out of their Bedouin tents in the early seventies and built up mega-cities in Saudi Arabia, Dubai, and UAE for them)

This is why you all want to immigrate into White countries, cause no matter how (putitively) “smart” your comparatively small racial elites are (most of whom have Indo-Aryan blood), most of you all are really not that intelligent, on average, especially in India. That is why nearly all of India is rather backward and primitive.

Indians Aren’t That Intelligent (On Average)
http://www.vdare.com/rushton/070926_indians.htm

Oh yeah without Indians you would still be using shitty Roman Numerals and have no concept of zero, and many mathematics, scientific, and engineering advancements would’ve never been made without those things alone. The Arab Al-Khwarizmi had to introduce numerals to world in his book “On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals”

Amazing as well when you guys cite (supposed) non-White “brilliance” it is always from examples many, many centuries ago. ;}


199109

Posted by Cod Liver Oil on Tue, 15 Jun 2010 06:54 | #

I found some thing which is also between India and China.  This time it is not about IQ but about border issue.  Listen to this podcast:

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/podcasts/India_China_Border.mp3

Interesting stuff.


199110

Posted by IndiaCynic on Tue, 15 Jun 2010 09:14 | #

IndiansAreSmart,

You are typical and embarassing with the superficial desi arrogance and lack of depth and breadth of understanding. Kindly stop embarassing those of us who would like to be known as more modest and circumspect. Because of people like you our entire group is labelled as gabby, boastful, loud-mouthed underachievers. You obviously need to learn what the Han have invented, practical devices to the factor of 10x more than anything that came out of desi land. There is simply no argument. Hell we could not even build lasting structures, there is no Indian equivalent of the engineering feat that is the Great Wall. (The grandest Indian structures are either Mughal or British) I can’t think of any ancient solid (not abstract) Indian invention that is not a bogus Hindutva invention and is relevant to the modern world. (Note - be careful not to post bogus things like Chess, before verifying where it was actually invented) If you are a Hindu like me you would know that the Puranas teach that there are four oceans - one made of curd, another of ghee, one of sugary water and some other ridiculous condiment whose name I can’t recall.

Please go through the list -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

Lets move out of historical evidence. The empirical evidence suggest Chinese in exile do better than overseas Indians and have built countries like Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan. I am not even counting post-Chinese ethnicities like the Koreans and the Japanese. China’s space and defence program is much ahead of India (India hasn’t created a functioning tank or fighter plane after decades of ‘research’) and the Chinese win more medals (5 times more) in the math, physics olympiads and programming competitions. What other proof do you need to see the truth unless you are blind to it.

As far as anecdotal evidence goes, this is what Charles’ Darwin’s cousin Francis Galton(who knew Indians and Chinese well) had to say:

“The Hindoo cannot fulfil the required conditions nearly as well as the Chinaman, for he is inferior to him in strength, industry, aptitude for saving, business habits, and prolific power.”

On the Chinese he said:

“The Chinese emigrants possess an extraordinary instinct for political and social organization; they contrive to establish for themselves a police and internal government, and they give no trouble to their rulers so long as they are left to manage those matters by themselves. They are good-tempered, frugal, industrious, saving, commercially inclined, and extraordinarily prolific. “

Well you might still want to argue about other things but you know deep down in your desi heart that ‘good tempered’ and ‘industrious’ are not adjectives that can in general be used to describe desis. Even granted that the Indians are of similar intelligence as the Chinese, the other ‘soft factors’ are overwhelmingly against us. Instead of GABBING and BOASTING on the internet we must be pulling up our socks and working till our eyes bleed but alas, most Indians dream of a 9 to 5 GOVERNMENT JOB.


199111

Posted by antikulak on Tue, 15 Jun 2010 19:31 | #

Idiot, that was when the “Indians” were still (largely unmixed) Indo-European Aryans, not the little brown people they are today (and why they are a disgusting third world country).

A simplicity of concept almost as stupid as the little brown people’s belief in “Out of India”.


199112

Posted by IndiansAreSmarter on Thu, 17 Jun 2010 08:07 | #

If you fools want to get destroyed by me, then continue replying and I’ll easily embarrass you

@Drifter
“Field Medals” only existed since 1936 dumbass. Gauss, Euler, Archimedes, Newton, Ramanujan, and all the best mathematicians never received any field medals. None of the people who received a Field Medal rival Ramanujan or any of the best mathematicians, the only good mathematician on that list is Grothendieck, the rest besides Perelman simply made relatively small contributions to mathematics so far.

But given the intelligence of these posters I doubt any of you know who even Euler or Gauss is or what even mathematicians do. Most here probably didn’t even know that Newton was a mathematician lol…they probably saw on TV an apple falling and thought that was all Newton did lol, that’s the “common” intelligence.

BTW to the dumb Chinese talking about the “International Mathematical Olympiad” no real mathematician cares about that contest, you can ask one if you want. When people look at the history of mathematics the “International Mathematical Olympiad” is never mentioned. It’s a joke to mathematicians. Being able to solve mathematical problems that have already been solved in the past has nothing to do with being a mathematician. What mathematicians care about is contributions, finding new proofs, solving conjectures, new notations,theorems, formulas, results etc…not solving problems that have already been solved in the past. But that’s all Chinese can do, solve math problems that have already been solved since they have no creativity, mimic what’s already been done.

Every mathematician and historian knows that the Indians contributed much more to mathematics than the Chinese ever have.

“Euler and Ramanujan are mathematicians of the greatest importance in the history of constants (and of course in the history of Mathematics ...)” - E. W. Middlemast

“We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made” - Albert Einstein

“It is India that gave us the ingenious method of expressing all numbers by the means of ten symbols, each symbol receiving a value of position, as well as an absolute value; a profound and important idea which appears so simple to us now that we ignore its true merit” - Pierre Simon Laplace

@Kulak

What a fuckin idiot. DNA testing shows that Indians were mixed throughout history dumbass. Where’s your evidence that they were “unmixed” Indo-European Aryan in the past? Oh wait you have none, just embarrassingly wrong claims. I doubt that the best Indian mathematician Ramanujan was a “pure Aryan” being from Erode, Tamil Nadu, India. The word “Arya” or “Ariya” (in pali) was never defined as a physical race, it had only meant “Noble” or “Noble One” in Sanskrit and Pali texts.

If it’s genetic then what’s the reason that ancient Northern Europeans (who have relatively the same genetic make up as modern ones) didn’t have any writing systems, science, or mathematics? Ancient Greek writers made fun of Northern Europeans as pale barbarians. They were just cave people. That’s why Northern Europeans never like talking about history prior to the 1400s, because they have none.

@TrollDetector

That’s right, Europeans immigrated from Europe to non-European regions. Europeans just don’t want to stay in their own fuckin continent. They want to immigrate then tell other people you’re not allowed to immigrate, lol. Why would you move out of Europe if you wanted to only be among Europeans? There’s lots of European countries that have populations that are nearly 100% white, why not just get the fuck out and help bad economy all-white European countries like Ukraine out?

History shows us that Europeans wouldn’t be anywhere without Arabs, Indians, and the Chinese. So if you wanted to be independent of all cultures or whatever then go back to not having writing systems, mathematics, science or technology just like the ancient barbaric German tribes did. The only thing found in Nordic and Anglo-Saxon areas are cave paintings. In all those 20,000+ years that’s all the Northern Europeans ever came up with, it took the Aztecs only 200 years to build a civilization that rivaled Rome, but in 20,000 years the dumb North Europeans couldn’t do anything. Thank the Southern (less Aryan) Europeans for migrating upwards for you ungrateful Northerners.

Amazing as well when you guys cite (supposed) non-White “brilliance” it is always from examples many, many centuries ago. ;}

Yeah because Ramanujan, J.C. Bose, and Satyendra Nath Bose are from ancient times…oh wait they’re not.

You can go back to using Roman Numerals or Chinese numerals if you want. I wonder why all the great advancements in science, mathematics, and engineering only came about after the use of the Hindu numeral system and not prior…

@IndianCynic

Hey fool, the only one embarrassing yourself is you. I didn’t claim Indians were better engineers than the Chinese dumbass, so where did you get that idea from? Indians contributed more to science and mathematics than the Chinese, but the Chinese contributed more to engineering. You people here sure don’t understand anything about history, science, engineering, or mathematics do you? You probably think engineering and science are the same thing, lol.

The reason why the Chinese contributed more to engineering is because it was in Chinese culture to build labor saving devices. Indians never had that culture of building machines, so they didn’t, but they were certainly intellectually capable of, the ancient Harappa piping system was only surpassed in the 19th century. Even though the Chinese had the population advantage and the culture advantage because the Chinese have no creativity the Europeans came and surpassed them easily within a few years in engineering. You would think with such a high population and having gunpowder first the Chinese would’ve done more.

The Sicilian Archimedes, the Greek Hero of Alexendria and the Arab al-Jazari were all better engineers than the Chinese were by far. The Chinese writing system is one of the most inefficient in the world, you need a million characters instead of just a few letters. China’s IQ on IQLeague.com is only 92, so I doubt the Chinese really have the high average IQ.

The Chinese have the highest population in the world, a much better economy than India, lower poverty rates, better education, and supposedly the IQ, so why aren’t the best physicists and mathematicians in the world Chinese? Given the population advantage, environmental advantage, and supposed IQ advantage you would think the Chinese would’ve contributed much more to physics and mathematics, but they didn’t. Indians with the economical disadvantage and supposed IQ disadvantage still contributed more than the Chinese. This is because the Chinese have no creativity, they’re just like robots.

The way you measure contributions to science and mathematics isn’t who wins awards and competitions that have nothing to do with the growth of science or mathematics fool. No one cares about that, people in real life care about contributions not how many awards someone has, Einstein didn’t even get an award for general relativity, but which physicist cares? The way you measure contributions is by looking at history to see who contributed more to mathematics and science, and Indians, Arabs, and Europeans definitely did contribute more to mathematics and science than the Chinese ever have.

The entire world uses the Hindu numeral system no one wants to use Roman Numerals or Chinese numerals. Bose-Einstein condensate is one of the biggest contributions to physics. The Ramanujan partition theory is used by computer scientists, Ramanujan’s other methods are used for the string theory, Ramanujan’s theorems and notebooks are studied by mathematicians. When you look back history at the greatest scientists and mathematicians you see some Indians and Arabs but nearly no Chinese. Chinese contributed more to inventing and engineering than to science and mathematics, although J.C. Bose did contribute to engineering with wireless communication.

Then you talk about the Puranas indicating you understand nothing about Indian philosophy or religion. There’s no religion called “Hindu” in Sanskrit or Pali. I don’t know which part of the Puranas mention oceans of ghee or whatever but that’s never mentioned by Krsna or in the Upanishads.

I do know that the earlier Puranas give the most advanced definition of God in comparison to Judeo-Christian religions. The earlier Puranas are the only religious texts that mentions atoms and multiple universes, they also use the accurate analogy of multiple universes being like particles of dust blowing the sky, which is amazingly similar to the bubble analogy used by modern day physicists. They also claim that the number of universes is greater than the number of atoms in the universe, which again fits into modern physics. They give the advanced definition of God being beyond sense perception, the origin of infinite universes, smaller than the atom, and the world being like an illusory dream.

Some of the very best biggest physicists were actually Vedantists, like J. Robert Oppenheimer.

“It is curious that people like Schroedinger, Niels Bohr, and Oppenheimer were Upanishad scholars” - Wheeler
“What we shall find in modern physics is an exemplification, an encouragement, and a refinement of old Hindu wisdom” - Oppenheimer

Then you talk about Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc….but Singapore is a mixed country and 42.5% Buddhist. Other countries with higher Chinese populations than Singapore aren’t doing as well as Singapore, why is this? I don’t know what empirical evidence you’re talking about, but a lot of economic forecasters are now saying India’s economy will be better than China’s in the future. India is still dealing with Muslims, poverty, illiteracy, poor education, and other nonsense. There are many many countries that don’t have a national defense as strong as India’s. India’s Air Force is the 4th largest in the world.

Then you mentioned shitty awards again, but people in real life don’t care about awards, Einstein didn’t get an award for general relativity, James Clerk Maxwell didn’t get an award for electromagnetic theory, but who cares?
With all those awards, the supposed high average IQ, and the very highest population the Chinese still can’t contribute as much as Europeans, Arabs, or Indians, why is this?

Then you use lame quotes from hundreds of years ago when DNA and atoms didn’t even exist in science.

“During the mutual exchanges between the two civilizations in the past, although certain Chinese technologies and inventions contributed to Indian civilization, in general, especially in spiritual terms, it was mainly China that learned from India. In one thousand years or so, India was China’s teacher. Chinese people will never forget that” - Mao Siwei

Then you try to talk about desi’s not being described as good tempered or whatever. But I’m only responding to hatred from the Chinese and Europeans. The Chinese hate on India much more and the Europeans and Chinese have historically been much more cruel and ill-tempered. The Greek philosopher Apollonius borrowed a lot of peaceful philosophy from India as did the Chinese.

The only thing I know deep down is that you just sound like another dumb brainwashed white suck up.


199113

Posted by Kulak on Thu, 17 Jun 2010 09:22 | #


@Kulak

What a fuckin idiot. DNA testing shows that Indians were mixed throughout history dumbass. Where’s your evidence that they were “unmixed” Indo-European Aryan in the past? Oh wait you have none, just embarrassingly wrong claims.


Here is my ‘evidence’, your desi arrogance -

Indo-Aryans of South Asia, The forgotten Whites

Aryan-The name goes back thousands of years. It is used in reference to whites that once lived in Middle Eastern areas such as India and Iran. This group later migrated to Europe and became known as the Indo-Europeans. From the Indo-Europeans sprang four groups: Celts, Germans, Balts, and Slavs. Their migration into Europe ranges from 4000BC to 500BC. The Indo-Europeans mixed with racially similar whites that already inhabited Europe. The white Aryans that stayed in the Middle East lost their genetic strain by interbreeding with the Semitic race. Other Aryans went into the Far East and they too bred themselves out of existence. Today, the word Aryan means a non-Semitic person of white European descent.

As an enduring symbol of the Indo-European peoples where ever they went, the swastika is found in all the lands where these people settled.

Example: SWASTIKA IN INDIA

This is also from Bhagwad Gita: The reality is Bhagwad Gita says: With the preponderance of vice, Krsna, the women of the family become corrupt; and with the corruption of women, O descendent of Vrsni, there ensures an intermixture of castes. Bhagwad Geeta goes on: Adnixture of blood damns the destroyers of the race as well as the race itself. Texts 41-42


ARYANA - THE ARYAN ORIGIN OF IN SOUTH ASIA

Around the year 2000 BC, originating in the Caucasus, a sun worshipping Indo-European tribe calling themselves Aryans, using a language known as Sanskrit, invaded central Asia and occupied territory as far as the North of India. These invaders were what became known as the original Aryans.

In fact, all of those countries spanning their age of conquest bear names directly related to them - India, Iran, Iraq are all corruptions of the original word “Aryan”. (Far off distant racial cousins of the Aryans went west, penetrating as far as Ireland, giving the name “Eire” to that land - also a derivative of the word Aryan).

After 2000 BC, waves of Aryans flooded into modern day Afghanistan, setting up a up a nation which became known as Aryana, or “Land of the Aryans.” By the middle of the 6th Century BC the Persian Empire had incorporated Aryana into its boundaries, and by 330 BC, Alexander the Great had occupied the region.

By this time most of the original Aryans in Aryana had been absorbed into the local native population, although it is still possible to this day to see light eyed and light haired individuals amongst the modern Afghanistan population.

During the 1st Century AD, the Kushans, an Asiatic race, occupied Aryana, with their rule destroying the last vestiges of the original Indo-Aryan culture and race. Thereafter Aryana fell under the rule of a large number of different Non-White races, until the 7th Century AD when Arab Muslim armies occupied the region. In 1220 the region was once again overrun by Mongols under Genghis Khan, who devastated the land. By this time the people of Aryana had passed into history - and only that country’s name is remembered today.


THE ARYANS AND INDIA

Another branch of the Aryans penetrated as far east as India, where they also settled and built up a civilization.

Although the Aryans established a powerful White civilization in Northern India, it would be incorrect to think that the native Indians had not created anything of their own.

The Indus civilization created by the Harrapans was already in existence by the time the Aryans invaded.

The invading Aryans were however more advanced and referred to the conquered Indians as “Dasyu” - the “dark ones” or slaves.

Indo-Aryan poetry (the Vedas) are full of stories of war against the Dasyu, and reflected that stark racial divisions between the conquering Aryans and the conquered Indians.

At the time of the writing of the main religious books of the Aryans - the Rigvedas - a distinction was drawn between the two types of people in the Indus river valley: the “fair” conquering immigrants and the “dark” native people.

Within three hundred years however, physical mixing had proceeded to the point where these two racial classes had been further subdivided further, with membership in each class being determined solely on the basis of how light or how dark an individual’s skin color was.

These divisions led to a color based class system being developed, known today as the caste system. The word caste was only given to the system by Portuguese travelers many centuries later, coming from the Latin word castus, meaning pure. The original Sanskrit for the caste system was “varna”, which means color.

As assimilation and integration between the Aryans and the Dasyu increased, the caste system became more and more complex, till four major divisions were created, with membership in each group dependent upon the coloring of the individual.

This four tier system still exists in India today, with the highest caste, the Brahmans (or “priests”) being the lightest in color, and the Sudas or “untouchables” are the darkest.

Within a few hundred years the original Aryans had become so assimilated that their contribution to Indian civilization can be considered to be at an end.

Their legacy lives on in the language, religion and poetry of India - and of course the caste system.

http://indoaryantoday.tripod.com/


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Posted by Kulak on Thu, 17 Jun 2010 09:37 | #

Here is some more evidence, your Indian highness -

History of Ancient Indian Conquest Told in Modern Genes, Experts Say

San Francisco Chronicle, 26 May 1999

Robert Cooke, Newsday

Like an indelible signature enduring through a hundred generations, genes that entered India when conquering hordes swooped down from the north thousands of years ago are still there, and remain entrenched at the top of the caste system, scientists report. Analyses of the male Y chromosome, plus genes hidden in small cellular bodies called mitochondria, show that today’s genetic patterns agree with accounts of ancient Indo-European warriors’ conquering the Indian subcontinent.

The invaders apparently shoved the local men aside, took their women and set up the rigid caste system that exists today. Their descendants are still the elite within Hindu society.

INVADING CAUCASOIDS

Thus today’s genetic patterns, the researchers explained, vividly reflect a historic event, or events, that occurred 3,000 or 4,000 years ago. The gene patterns ``are consistent with a historical scenario in which invading Caucasoids—primarily males—established the caste system and occupied the highest positions, placing the indigenous population, who were more similar to Asians, in lower caste positions.’‘

...

The ancient story holds that invaders known as Indo-Europeans, or true Aryans, came from Eastern Europe or western Asia and conquered the Indian subcontinent. The people they subdued descended from the original inhabitants who had arrived far earlier from Africa and from other parts of Asia.

During the genetic studies, in 1996 and 1997, researchers took blood samples from hundreds of people in southern India. The analyses compared the genes from 316 caste members and 330 members of tribal populations, looking for signs of Asian, European and African ancestry.

In the mitochondrial genes passed along by females, Jorde said, they could see the clear background of Asian genes. ``All of the caste groups were similar to Asians, the underlying population’’ that had originally been subdued.

But, he added, ``when we look at the Y chromosome DNA, we see a very different pattern. The lower castes are most similar to Asians, and the upper castes are more European than Asian.’’

Further, ``when we look at the different components within the upper caste, the group with the greatest European similarity of all is the warrior class, the Kshatriya, who are still at the top of the Hindu castes, with the Brahmins,’’ Jorde said.

...

CASTE SYSTEM STILL ALIVE

He added that even though India’s ancient caste system was abolished legally in the 1960s, it is still entrenched socially.

``People are very well aware of their caste membership,’’ he said, noting that in some cities the housing is still arranged along caste lines. So ``one might argue, unfortunately so, that it (the caste system) does exist in people’s minds.’’

In terms of who marries whom, the researchers described the Hindu caste system as ``governing the mating practices of nearly one-sixth of the world’s population.’’

The blood samples taken from tribal people in southern India are still being analyzed, Jorde added.

But so far, ``the tribal populations are more similar to the lower castes than to anyone else, similar to the original residents of India,’’ he said.

http://indoaryantoday.tripod.com/indoaryansofsouthasiatheforgottenwhites/id5.html

Remember, dude, this is still Our blog, and your just a guest.


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Posted by Troll Detector on Thu, 17 Jun 2010 14:26 | #

Yeah because Ramanujan, J.C. Bose, and Satyendra Nath Bose are from ancient times…oh wait they’re not.

You can go back to using Roman Numerals or Chinese numerals if you want. I wonder why all the great advancements in science, mathematics, and engineering only came about after the use of the Hindu numeral system and not prior…

Well well well, the arrogant Indian racist is getting even more arrogant and racist. Now he comes to this blog with the handle “Indiansaresmarter” rather than just “smart”.

Look here, I don’t give a damn about how supposedly “smart” a few Indians are in that disgusting “country” you call “India”. Only an extremely insecure little brown desi beta-nerd like yourself cares about that stuff.

Again, if some of you really are supposedly intelligent, you would want to stay in your God-forsaken country helping out your co-ethnics rather than bragging and boasting to White men, on a White “racist” blog, no less! Nah, your too typical of most little Indians that I have encountered in the West: spoiled, arrogant and mommy-pampered desis to the core. In fact, no other race or ethnic group really respects you, since all you people are are exploiters and interlopers, as well as some of the greediest people on the planet.

That’s right, Europeans immigrated from Europe to non-European regions. Europeans just don’t want to stay in their own fuckin continent. They want to immigrate then tell other people you’re not allowed to immigrate, lol. Why would you move out of Europe if you wanted to only be among Europeans? There’s lots of European countries that have populations that are nearly 100% white, why not just get the fuck out and help bad economy all-white European countries like Ukraine out?

The bottom line is America (and the Rest of the West) is a White Man’s Country and Civilization, built by him and for him. We did just fine without all you (supposedly) “smart” Indians before the 1965 third world immigration invasion—and we will do just fine without you. Whites envisioned and built America—Indians and other non-Whites came to a great nation that was already built.

You are not my co-ethnic—and I am not your co-ethnic—hence we will never be able to live in the same nation or territory together (Good Lord, you guys can’t even properly get along with other castes and sub-races in your own country).

Nor do I especially wish to have you or other Indians, Asians or any other non-Whites in my country taking away precious resources from me, my family, and any of my co-ethnic Northern Europeans, who are my People—especially our jobs and dipping into our collective wealth in this awful economic downturn. It is not yours or any other brown person’s “right” to come to this or any other majority-White country.


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Posted by Troll Detector on Thu, 17 Jun 2010 14:47 | #

Here is a classic example of the pampered desi beta-boy nerds falling for and believing their own lies and ethnic cheerleaders:

India rising in US: Govt falls victim to net hoax
Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN, Mar 12, 2008, 12.10am IST

WASHINGTON: It’s an Internet myth that has taken on a life of its own. No matter how often you slay this phony legend, it keeps popping up again like some hydra-headed beast.

But on Monday, the Indian government itself consecrated the oft-circulated fiction as fact in Parliament, possibly laying itself open to a breach of privilege. By relaying to Rajya Sabha members (as reported in The Times of India) a host of unsubstantiated and inflated figures about Indian professionals in US, the government also made a laughing stock of itself.

The figures provided by the Minister of State for Human Resource Development Purandeshwari included claims that 38 per cent of doctors in US are Indians, as are 36 per cent of NASA scientists and 34 per cent of Microsoft employees.

There is no survey that establishes these numbers, and absent a government clarification, it appears that the figures come from a shop-worn Internet chain mail that has been in circulation for many years. Spam has finally found its way into the Indian parliament dressed up as fact.

Attempts by this correspondent over the years to authenticate the figures have shown that it is exaggerated, and even false. Both Microsoft and NASA say they don’t keep an ethnic headcount. While they acknowledge that a large number of their employees are of Indian origin, it is hardly in the 30-35 per cent range.

In a 2003 interview with this correspondent, Microsoft chief Bill Gates guessed that the number of Indians in the engineering sections of the company was perhaps in the region of 20 per cent, but he thought the overall figure was not true. NASA workers say the number of Indians in the organization is in the region of 4-5 per cent, but the 36 per cent figure is pure fiction.

...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/India-rising-in-US-Govt-falls-victim-to-net-hoax/articleshow/2856295.cms


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Posted by IndiansAreDumbest on Fri, 18 Jun 2010 02:22 | #

Indians are the stupidest dumbfukkers in the world.

They only know how to talk junk and make junk. Including mass reproduction of ugly and smelly turdskin babies.

Buy a Tata Nano and see first hand what Indian innovation is really like. The friggin shitbox the Indians call a car will burst into flames the moment the ignition is turned on.

You ugly dotheads should show some real smartness by making your own country into a decent place to live in, so that you all ugly dotheads don’t need to wash up on everybody else’s country like overflowing sewerage.

But no, all you ‘smart’ Indians can do is make a shithole out of any country that you populate. Your own country is the world’s biggest shithole where the majority of the people don’t even own a toilet to do their shit in.

Heres proof:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aErNiP_V4RLc&refer=exclusive

@IndiansAreSmarter (or Dumber)

Read the article, you rat worshipping, cow pee drinking muddafukka. Stop your empty bragging and read the article first. Indians like you are so smart, that you haven’t even invented the toilet in your country.

India sure will overtake China and the rest of the world in open defecation.


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Posted by IndiansAreDumbest on Fri, 18 Jun 2010 02:27 | #

India sure will overtake China and the rest of the world in open defecation.

Sorry about the sentence. What I really mean’t to say was:

India already leads the whole world in open defecation.


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Posted by Lurker on Fri, 18 Jun 2010 04:19 | #

The figures provided by the Minister of State for Human Resource Development Purandeshwari included claims that 38 per cent of doctors in US are Indians, as are 36 per cent of NASA scientists and 34 per cent of Microsoft employees.


If that were true it would explain a lot!


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Posted by IndiaCynic on Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:56 | #

Wow Kulak is quoting a trip blog, probably his own, to make tall, bogus claims. Don’t know if its stupidity or vanity, maybe its both.

“Some of the very best biggest physicists were actually Vedantists, like J. Robert Oppenheimer.”

Read some opinions of the peers of Robert Oppenheimer who associate his relative lack of achievement compared to his prodigious intelligence to his irrational oriental beliefs.

If you are trying to establish primal superiority of the Vedas then lets talk of it as a whole and not selectively. The who Yajur Veda is nothing but a compilation of magical spells and voodoo for warding off ghosts and snake venom. Infact 90% of the Vedas is nothing but a product of a dark age imagination terrified of the vast unknown. In that it is no different from most ancient religious texts. You do get some gems like the Bhumi Sukta and the atheistic sentiment expressed in the Rg Veda but sublime as they are, they are statistically quite probable for such a vast piece of literature and nothing to justify an exemplary status for the whole body of work.

“but a lot of economic forecasters are now saying India’s economy will be better than China’s in the future.”

Take them with a punch of salt and curry. That is what those ‘Times of India’ surveys are worth. No credible economist without a motivated agenda would bet on Indian economy ‘bettering’ China’s in the future. I live in India, and have been to China, and I can call it for what it is - bs.

“Indians never had that culture of building machines, so they didn’t, but they were certainly intellectually capable of, the ancient Harappa piping system was only surpassed in the 19th century.”

India didn’t have a culture of wearing stitched clothes either (look it up). Women of the lower castes used to roam around with their breasts exposed in ancient times. Even the Royals imported Persian ways of court including drapering. Looks like India didn’t have a culture for anything scientifically refined - just study the coins minted during the Mauryan and Gupta empire, and compare them to what the Bactrian barbarians minted. Forget machining, there is not much proof of Indian craftsmanship either.

“Even though the Chinese had the population advantage and the culture advantage because the Chinese have no creativity the Europeans came and surpassed them easily within a few years in engineering.”

This sounds similar to what parents of underachieving kids tell their peers “Bhupinder may not be as smart as his Li but he is CREATIVE” which means exactly what it is - more BS. I am not going to argue over these imponderable straw mans, just look at the number of scientific Patents filed by China compared to India and figure it out.

“You would think with such a high population and having gunpowder first the Chinese would’ve done more.”

I have the same question for India. 5000 years of civilization, huge population, immense wealth and nothing to show for material achievement ?

“It is curious that people like Schroedinger, Niels Bohr, and Oppenheimer were Upanishad scholars” - Wheeler

Yes, scientists tend to be well read and posessing contrarian natures. Orientalism was the in fashion and Occidentalism was out. What is your point ? They took bhaang and did jaap and saw the wave equation in some sort of epiphany ? You have an immature grasp of complex ideas. You can’t see that there is no correlation between them being great scientists and their interests. You just extrapolate quotations to suit your agenda and fill the gaps in your inferiority complex. Not a very high IQ trait and quite typical. Out of curiousity, are you Punjabi?

“They give the advanced definition of God being beyond sense perception, the origin of infinite universes, smaller than the atom, and the world being like an illusory dream. “

Which part of scientific fact are you trying to corroborate with such statements. That God exists? World is like an illusionary dream?

“Then you mentioned shitty awards again, but people in real life don’t care about awards, Einstein didn’t get an award for general relativity”

When Indian americans win the spelling bee chest thumpers like you are all over the internet crapping on discussion boards claiming Indian superiority, but Math, Physics olympiad and programming contests dominated by the Chinese are ‘shitty’ achievement. Very convenient, typically Indian behavior.

And put the Mao’s comment in perspective dude, it just shows how modest the Chinese are. We could learn a lot imbibing that trait. I have met several Chinese, and most don’t hate on India, they just don’t think much of it. Who can blame them? They beat us at war, and do beat us at everything including the atheltic and math olympics. We look down upon Nepalis in India don’t we? Why do we do that, Nepal was historically never conquered by us, and never even conquered by the mighty British, while we were. Then how do you expect the White and the Chinese who beat us at war to give us respect? You don’t demand respect, you work silently and command it. You don’t see the Chinese arguing on boards or pimpin their achievements but all thinking people know what they have achieved.


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Posted by Wuddat on Sat, 19 Jun 2010 02:59 | #

Indians sure have the gift of brag.

Even supposedly leading figures of Indian society, such as industrialists and military officers are not immune from making astronomical claims that always turn out to be a lot of hot air.

Back in 2005, one of India’s leading captains of industry, Mukesh Ambani made a boastful claim about India overtaking China in GDP growth by 2007. Well, it’s now 2010 and three years past Ambani’s boastful deadline of overtaking China, but not only has this prediction not come true, China’s lead over India has widened furthur. China’s economy is now 4 times larger than India’s and still growing at about 20-22% faster than India.

Another example of Indian mindless bragging was done by former chief of Indian army, Gen. Deepak Kapoor. Who boastfully claimed about the Indian army being capable of fighting both China and Pakistan together and winning in 5 days. This boast was ridiculed by the Americans.

Indians have a habit of putting their foot into their big mouths and not feel any shame. This says a lot about IndiansAreSmart’s boastful claims of Indian’s “superior intellect”.


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Posted by IndiaCynic on Sat, 19 Jun 2010 08:06 | #

Wuddat,

One mistake Indians and Chinese make in judging each other is thinking of each other as homogenous entities. Indians don’t realize how diverse the Chinese are, and the Chinese to a lesser extent are not aware of Indian diversity.

South Indians for example tend to be circumspect, hard working people, in many ways they are quite similar to the Chinese. The north Indians, those from the north-west regions especially tend to have vulgar prole mentalities and can make some of the worst gasbags.

Deepak Kapoor for example, is a Hindu Punjabi name. Several North Indian communities don’t have any concept of shame. They lack any discipline to observe civic rules and have no concept of ‘saving face’. Corrupt officials and land mafia are the role models in these societies which says a lot. They kill girl babies in the womb by the thousands and believe in caste superiority to this day. You will rarely find an Indian scientist from these northern parts. They have anger management and alcohol abuse issues, are racist, sexist, devious and prone to law-breaking. Sometimes I think its all because of the barbarian blood mixing. Maybe we should have built a Great Wall along the Khyber to preserve all that was dear.


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Posted by IndiaCynic on Sun, 20 Jun 2010 19:01 | #

The bottom line is America (and the Rest of the West) is a White Man’s Country and Civilization, built by him and for him. We did just fine without all you (supposedly) “smart” Indians before the 1965 third world immigration invasion—and we will do just fine without you. Whites envisioned and built America—Indians and other non-Whites came to a great nation that was already built.

You are not my co-ethnic—and I am not your co-ethnic—hence we will never be able to live in the same nation or territory together (Good Lord, you guys can’t even properly get along with other castes and sub-races in your own country).

Nor do I especially wish to have you or other Indians, Asians or any other non-Whites in my country taking away precious resources from me, my family, and any of my co-ethnic Northern Europeans, who are my People—especially our jobs and dipping into our collective wealth in this awful economic downturn. It is not yours or any other brown person’s “right” to come to this or any other majority-White country.

I think the American baby boomer generation was a golden harvest any country will be lucky to reap. The boomers were hard working, competitive and enterprising. But their success bred a degree of confidence that immigrants could never really pose a threat to their success. I agree with your concern, which are prudent and well-meaning for your people, no natives in any part of the world would like being supplanted by immigrants, especially those who refuse to let go of their roots and integrate into a way of life.

It is a broad two way street. The movement of immigrants from India has been hurtful for India in the long run. It might have brought us rich foreign reserves and short term economic gain but will hurt our future. By a rough analog of the Pareto principle the wealthiest will decide the future of this country’s polity. Though many Indians from the high-tech and medical professions constitute the ‘smart-set’ a majority of the student population will be well to do upper caste elite who are buying their way out of the ruthless competition for education and privileges back in India. They are typically posessed of ancestral land handouts and corrupt officials/politicians in the family who have hoarded enough wealth to buy their American tickets as a shortcut to wealth and ‘status’. They feed back dollars into their little family mob businesses back in India and pull strings using their local indian contacts to keep the common, honest hard working man under their yoke. The US dollar=48 Rs, so by making them richer you are doing both your nation, and the third world a great injustice. Stop this kind of immigration.

History is proof that undeserving elite in power rarely abdicate unless they are dislodged. Indian society is seeing a particularly egregious form of this phenomenon. This is the class of immigrants you have to watch out for, not the one selected for intelligence, but brats from rich families carrying an ancestral strain of questionable ethics and sense of entitlement to others’ resources. Beware them. Once you close your doors these undeserving royals will be forced to compete in the Indian education and job market which can be pretty daunting for the untempered by its sheer numbers. It is then that we can see a dislodging of this ‘Brown sahib’ class and the birth of prosperous meritocratic societies in south asia. Both the first and the third world shall benefit from a robust immigration check against such undeserving migrants.


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Posted by Bollywood on Mon, 21 Jun 2010 00:27 | #

@IndiaCynic

Very honest and thought provoking input from you, my friend.

Below is a link to an interesting article that sheds significant light on the true nature of behind all this Indian “talent” flooding into America.

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_5471.shtml

Highly recommended reading.


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Posted by Bollywood on Mon, 21 Jun 2010 00:37 | #

As the article shows, the true nature behind all this Indian “talent” flooding into America, began quite a long while back. But gained it’s present avalanche like momentum during the Clinton administration and continues to date. It involves corruption at the highest levels of the US and Indian govts.


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Posted by Troll Detector on Mon, 21 Jun 2010 06:36 | #

I think the American baby boomer generation was a golden harvest any country will be lucky to reap. The boomers were hard working, competitive and enterprising. But their success bred a degree of confidence that immigrants could never really pose a threat to their success. I agree with your concern, which are prudent and well-meaning for your people, no natives in any part of the world would like being supplanted by immigrants, especially those who refuse to let go of their roots and integrate into a way of life.

IndiaCynic,

I agree, very honest and thought provoking input from you, my friend.

I am sorry if I got carried away with my comments—I was just reacting to the haughtiness of the “Indiansaresmart” commenter.

With honest men such as yourself, we can all have a frank and intelligent discussion.


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Posted by KIKUYUVISITOR on Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:21 | #

My,my,my! I actually manged to read all thi shit. My opinions are based on personal observations here in Nairobi where we have a large Indian population and increasingly Chinese immigrants. Yes, I’d agree Indians are good at maths. Better than indigenous Kenyans? Hmmm…..I wish could give an ethnic breakdown based on our mixed African.white,Indian class adjusted for each races’ percentage of class,but I’d have to say no. The smartest guy I ever knew was a fellow Kikuyu.
Also there is a massive inferiority complex among both Indians and Chinese thats as obvious as the Caucasian looking actors you insist are the true face of India. I came to this site by googling some info I overheard about ancient Africans in Asia. The first Indians,the Harappans were African-and were identified as such by all serious researchers.

Professor George Rawlinson, in a work titled, “On the Affinities of the Races Western Asia,” states, “Recent linguistic discovery tends to show that a Cushite or Ethiopian race did in the earliest times extend itself along the shores of the Southern Ocean from Abyssinia to India. The whole peninsula of India was peopled by a race of this character before the influx of the Aryans…”; Historian F. Willord, in his work titled, “Asiatic Researches Vol. III,” states, “It is certain that the very ancient statues of Gods in India have crisp hair and the features of Negroes….a race of Negroes formerly had power and preeminence in India.”

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_3420.shtml
Btw,thats not Afrocentric bs. That research was done in I think the1920s. In fact the same Dravidians/Veddoids/Africans reached S.China and found the first dynasty,the Shang around 170 bc. Consult KC Chang, a renowned historian.
Conclusion? Hate yourselves or negroids as much as you want;but before doing so,it helps to have the true historical picture in mind.


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Posted by One Indian on Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:35 | #

I usually visit these kind of blogs to get a good laugh.

What happens is quite simple:Some Naive Indians boast a lot without much of a clue.But these generate massive inferiority complex in some naive Chinese and Westerners and they try to pull India down.And then the Indians fight back and the cycle continues.

Indians are definitely intelligent beings.Being an Indian,I know that.But there is a serious attitude problem in many Indians.The Chinese are much more humble and progress oriented(but they do show off a lot).

This is from where Lynn got the original IQ table for his book from

http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm

Not only is the source of this table questionable,it only shows IQ scores from only a few selected Indian regions .Most of the people tested are apparently from the slums of 1950s and 60s.

I find it amusing that people are treating IQ as some sort of gold standard of intelligence.IQ scores rise over time with abstract thinking.In fact, if Indian IQ is 82 right now,it would mean that they are cleverer than whites of the time of 2nd world war.This is because of the flynn effect.Those whites are the ones that built nuclear bombs and modern computers.

For your information- Lynn’s book has been heavily criticized and most reputable scientists dismiss his work as without any scientific basis.I am surprised that such a book is being used as the holy book in this discussion.

There are so many IQ myths that floats around the internet that it has become ridiculous.For example a common myth is that Einstein had an IQ of 160.Which is not true at all because he NEVER took an IQ test.We do know however, that Feynman had an IQ of 122.A 122 back then will be like less than 100 right now.He was a Putnam fellow and a nobel laurette.A putnam fellow is like being a medalist in USA math olympiad,only at undergraduate level.

And lastly,there is good genetic evidence that everyone outside of Africa are descendants of a single tiny group of people 60thousand years ago.That makes Indians ,Chinese and Europeans close relatives.So fight all you like ,but it does you no good to fight your own kind.


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Posted by Tyler Durden on Wed, 21 Jul 2010 02:01 | #

Re: One Indian

the same old Indian defense mechanism arguments, eh?

The author is racist.
He/She manipulated the numbers to make indians look bad.
The sample size is too small.
The data were collected from the most rural, underprivileged parts of india.
All Indians are intelligent because I know a lot of intelligent indians and in fact I am one of them [insert personal IQ score, impressive job title, etc]
IQ is not a great measure of intelligence because all Indians are geniuses like Einstein while IQ tests are designed for average joes with IQ in the ~100 range, therefore IQ tests fail to measure the indians’ supposed ultra intelligence which cannot be quantified.
IQ varies with age and one can prepare for an IQ test, therefore the scientists must have gone way out of their way to pick the smartest chinese kids, have them study for the tests beforehand, then compare their scores against those collected from the lowest caste kids from the worst possible slums. It has to be the white man’s plan to put down the indians, thus any schools of science even those remotely related to the study of human intelligence is of no significance at all.

and of course the success of a few oddball indian CEO’s and scientists is a clear sign that the average indian person is capable of achieving greatness if certain environmental conditions are met. Genetics play no part in the equation, and it’s all environmental. If indians wanted to, they could dominate the olympics with ease, the same goes for any international competition of any sort.


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Posted by Lurker on Wed, 21 Jul 2010 04:47 | #

THe Flynn effect seems to have raised all boats. I doubt there is muh diffeence beteen relative Indian and white IQ between now and WW2.

Whites in WW2 managed to come up with enigma enryption machines,  computers to decrypt enigma, atomic bombs, computers to help build the A bomb, Mosquito bombers, B-29 bombers, jet engines, jet fighters, V1 cruise missiles, V2 missiles, SONAR, RADAR, helicopters, the MG42 (still in production today).

Where is the current wave of Indian innovation?

Dicking around with existing (white) products doesnt count, obviously.


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Posted by Dick Feymann on Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:33 | #

@ One Indian,

I doubt Feymann’s IQ is 122.  Feymann was a certified goofball and I suspect he was being ‘creative’ when he took the IQ test.


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Posted by PF on Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:56 | #

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boXH-YhJp_s&feature=related

TD is the best.


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Posted by A.C is the solution on Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:39 | #

Since cold environment is so crucial for high IQ,we only need to manufacture more ACs.That is going to solve our IQ problem for sure!

Think about it,it could be that Indians did not do well in IQ tests because they took those tests in hot weather.Now,if you take those same Indians to cold countries like USA,they do better than any other national group.I mean when you are given to solve puzzles in hot Indian sunlight,you tend to feel disoriented and your brain stops functioning.But now take these Indians to Europe.It’s cold -the brain is working - and Indians are officially geniuses now.

So all we need is a few billion ACs.Problem solved!That’s my hypothesis!


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Posted by kikuyuvisitor on Tue, 27 Jul 2010 14:30 | #

I found it! Evidence from a Chinese historian,not an Afrocentrist that Africans pioneered the first Shang dynasty in 1800bc.

According to Prof. Shun-sheng Ling, the earliest documented rulership of China known as the Xia and Shang dynasties, were ruled by emperors called Xuan Di, Black Emperors who introduced farming and writing to China, and under their leadership, trade cities and travel developed. Blacks in China were raising silkworms to make silk not later than 3500 BC.

The fundamental structures of a stylish calligraphy which is still present today was perfected by the Chinese under this Black dynasty, but in addition to writing, the Blacks of the Xia and Shang dynasties introduced bronze working to China and also invented the pounded earth architecture associated with early Chinese city-states.

Black Chinese 3 Furthermore, archaeology and forensic tests confirm that China’s first two important dynasties, the Xia and the Shang/ Chang, were Black African, with an Australoid known as Madras Indian or Chamar in Trinidad present in small percentages.

http://members.fortunecity.com/jrmoore1959/africapart16.html
Don’t get me wrong-I don’t need nor do I want respect /affirmation/friendship or selfesteem;this is the real world not Oprah or Tyra Skanks. But some of you do need to reduce your alarmingly racist yet casual assertions on ‘negroids.’


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Posted by KIKUYUVISITOR on Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:11 | #

Hmmm….do I detect some subtle snarkiness, Mr.Scrooby? No matter;let me just supply the same info from a site I hope is up to your impeccable standards. I doubt it will make any difference since there is a definite race IQ agenda in your posts,but here goes- do with it as you will.

Negroid skeletons dating to the early periods of Southern Chinese history have been found in Shangdong, Jiantung, Sichuan, Yunnan, Pearl River delta and Jiangxi especially at the initial sites of Chingliengang (Ch’ing-lien-kang) and Mazhiabang (Ma chia-pang) phases (see: K.C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press:New Haven,1977) p.76) . The Chingliengang culture is often referred to as the Ta-wen-k’ou (Dawenkou) culture of North China. The presence of Negroid skeletal remains at Dawenkou sites make it clear that Negroes spread out from the North to South China. The Dawenkou culture predates the Lung-shan culture which is associated with the Xia civilization.

Many researchers believe that the Yi of Southern China were the ancestors of the Austronesian, Polynesian and Melanesian people.

In the Chinese literature the Blacks were called li-min, Kunlung, Ch’iang (Qiang), Yi and Yueh. The founders of the Xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasties were blacks. These blacks were called Yueh and Qiang. The modern Chinese are descendants of the Zhou. The second Shang Dynasty (situated at Anyang) was founded by the Yin. As a result this dynasty is called Shang-Yin.

The Yin or Classical/Oceanic Mongoloid type is associated with the Austronesian speakers ( Kwang-chih Chang, “Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China”, Current Anthropology, 5 (1964) pp.359-375 :375). Djehuti your Austronesian or Oceanic ancestors were referred to in the Chinese literature as Yin, Feng, Yen, Zhiu Yi and Lun Yi.

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-black-african-foundation-of-china-the-first-chinese/
They’re directly quoting KC Chang,perhaps the most distinguished in his field. You should ideally direct your comments towards him but hes no longer with us. The impressive nature of his bibliography makes nonsense of any objections.
http://www.bu.edu/asianarc/kcchang_bio.html


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Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:58 | #

The theories you cite are hogwash, Kikuyuvisitor, but here’s the real deal, happening right now as we speak:  Chinamen, who don’t come from Negroes despite what your Rastafarian blog claims, do run a real risk of turning into them if they’re not careful:

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2010/02/china-and-interesting-times.html

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2010/03/china-and-interesting-times-part-ii.html

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2010/03/china-and-interesting-times-part-iii.html

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2010/03/has-china-come-to-end-of-history.html


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Posted by kikuyuvisitor on Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:38 | #

Those are not my theories,but the findings of the most respected archaelogist in his field;though I’m not surprised you’d chose to interpret my post that way. KC Chang’s findings were properly peer reviewed before being accepted and published by YALE PRESS.
http://www.bu.edu/asianarc/kcchang_bio.html

Negroid skeletons dating to the early periods of Southern Chinese history have been found in Shangdong, Jiantung, Sichuan, Yunnan, Pearl River delta and Jiangxi especially at the initial sites of Chingliengang (Ch’ing-lien-kang) and Mazhiabang (Ma chia-pang) phases (see: K.C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press:New Haven,1977) p.76) . The Chingliengang culture is often referred to as the Ta-wen-k’ou (Dawenkou) culture of North China. The presence of Negroid skeletal remains at Dawenkou sites make it clear that Negroes spread out from the North to South China.

If you have personal research invalidating his findings lets hear it-ohh and don’t forget to contact the International Centre For East Asian Archealogy And Cultural History,who I’m sure would be fascinated by your new interpretations of early Chinese human history.
Btw,that link about Chinese/Ethio marriage isn’t only totally irrelevant but betray your peculiar race iq fixation.


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Posted by Essence Of truth on Sun, 05 Sep 2010 01:29 | #

Indians are culturally and morally superior to whites, any day. Indian culture is more than 5000 year old based on non-violence, peaceful co-existence, respect for the environment, spirituality and Karma, vegetarianism, yoga, good family values and purification of soul. Everything is well documented in Vedas and Puranas, regarding the meaning of life and death, reincarnation and social obligations.

While whites were meat munching and kin humping cave dwellers till very recently, they wanna gobble more than they can digest and thats how they are destroying the world, environment and various plant and animal species. They faught more wars than any one else and reduced so many plant and animal species to extinction. Somehow in last few hundred years they went on a rampage spree based on loot, plunder and slavery and accumulated huge wealth and thats why they are proving all wrong is right including injustices and lies with there false propoganda of IQ test scores.


Read more:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita


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Posted by Sikkimese on Sun, 05 Sep 2010 05:03 | #

@Essence of Truth,

“Indian culture is more than 5000 year old based on non-violence, peaceful co-existence…”

Peaceful co-existence?  Are you kidding me?  Gobbling up a three hundred year old monarchy is peaceful co-existence?

http://www.nepalitimes.com.np/issue/35/Nation/9621

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,913029,00.htm

http://sikhim.blogspot.com/2009/07/chogyal-palden-thondup-namgyal-with.html


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Posted by saman on Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:12 | #

the reason for IQ diffrence between indians and chinese is the diversity of indian population being higher than the chinese. indians have some extremely brilliant people but the majority is not.on the other hand chinese may not have the extremely brilliant people but on average less diverse but higher IQ population.


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Posted by IndiansAreSmarter on Sat, 18 Sep 2010 03:18 | #

lol the people here are stupid as fuck….after the IQ fans find out that Richard Feymann’s IQ is only 125 they say it must be a mistake…Feymann wasn’t joking when he took the test it was taken in high school…Henri Poincare’s IQ was also had a low IQ, he failed an IQ test…all IQ measures is how well you can answer IQ test questions…if someone isn’t good at answering IQ test questions then they will NOT get a high IQ score (obviously)

Oh yeah the supposed average IQ of 81 for India is guessed and estimated…what a joke but the Europeans and even dumber Chinese wouldn’t know that…

“Rather than do their own IQ studies (a potentially massive project), the authors average and adjust existing studies”
LOL what a joke, but that’s all the Chinese and Europeans can do is joke and hate, they are really stupid as fuck

All the other non-guessed sources don’t show Indians having an average IQ of 81…I wonder why (lol)

Chinese worship white people, everywhere you go they always suck up it’s so disgusting, that’s why some Europeans (but only some) like the Chinese, this Chinese guy told me that “China sucked and Europe was the best” I was like damn…they hate themselves

The only thing the Chinese can do is mimic and copy and eat dogs and snakes as food. They are really cruel as fuck try to behead students at VA Tech and blow up the Discovery Channel building. They can’t speak English well at all and Indians are much more successful in the US than the Chinese are.

Now watch I was ruin the arguments from the other responses…

@Wuddat I’m not boasting just stating the facts…Ramanujan really is better than EVERY Chinese mathematician that ever existed and he really was poor and uneducated, self-taught, suffering from malnutrition

The simple FACT is:
The best Indian mathematicians > The best Chinese mathematicians
The best Indian physicists > The best Chinese physicists (if a best even exist)
The best Indian engineers > The best Chinese engineers

I don’t view the Chinese as any threat intellectually because they only have the ability to mimic and copy everything everyone already did. I view Europeans and Arabs as much smarter. The only way the Chinese can be a threat is if they successfully mimic and copy from someone else, they are really stupid as fuck. I think Africans are waaay smarter than the Chinese because creativity alone matters so much more.

@Kulak I’m not saying the Aryan invasion theory is entirely false, but it’s definitely not entirely true. The simple fact is there are no Aryan texts outside of India. Europeans in India were known as mlecchas and the lowest like a dalit. The evidence more strongly points towards migration than invasion, but so what if there was a migration? When people talk about Greek history they don’t start out saying Arabs migrated to Greece and started Greek culture. The Greeks stole writing from the Arabs.

The word Aryan means “Noble” that’s why Buddhism is called “Ariya Magga” and Noble Eightfold Path and The Four Noble Truths are called “Ariya” in pali. In the pali canons the Buddha said the Greeks were lower than the Indians because they did not value controlling the mind and meditation like India (or Jambupada as it was called) did. Why didn’t The Buddha call them Aryan?

@Troll Detector lol….the only people who respect white people are the Chinese, since the Chinese worship white people, and some Mexicans also worship white people. Other than that the entire world hates white people, even some white historians hate white people. No one besides the Chinese respects white people, especially white people.

The simple historical fact is the whites are most hateful cruel race besides the Chinese, just as they are called truly mlecchas, mean-spirited cruel people.

Aryan philosophy is the greatest that’s why some Europeans try to falsely claim themselves as Aryan when they are really just mlecchas.

White people don’t know shit about history do they? You talk about the US being the “white man’s” land founded by whites for whites even though the founding fathers of the US were libertarians and didn’t put anything in the constitution saying it was for whites only, the reason why immigration laws were overturned was because of the founders’ vision that “all men are created equal”. They didn’t even want immigration laws at all, they truly wanted an entirely free country. So why are you loser white nationalists so against the people who built up America? America was NOT built for whites only.

Then you talked about America doing just fine pre-1965 even though during the Great Depression when America was a much much much more white country the economy was much much much worse. You just try to blame all of your own problems on non-whites.

Then you tried to mention the hoax that the Indian govt fell too even though anyone can point out so much misinformation that American politicians have fallen to.

Mlecchas lose again. Aryan intellect wins.

@IndiansAreDumbest lol….white girls are the #1 sluttiest in the world…the top 7 most promiscuous countries are all made up of mostly white European women

Lol India won Miss Universe 2 times, China won Miss Universe 0 times, India won Miss World 5 times and China won only 1 time.

In the 1700s India had the highest GDP dumbass, higher than China and Europe. One thing whites can’t understand is that economies change from time to time, they’re under the delusion that it remains constant forever. Now after the British Raj ruined everything India is slowly coming back up.

Rat worshiping? What a dumb mleccha.

“One should meditate on the omniscient, primordial, the controller, smaller than the smallest particle, yet the maintainer of everything; whose form is inconceivable, resplendent like the sun and totally transcendental to material nature” - Bhagavad Gita, 8.9

Why isn’t there any white religion which gives such an advanced definition of God? What do whites have? Norse mythology? LOL what a joke mlecchas are.

@IndiaCynic I wasn’t talking about the Vedas fool, why are you mentioning the Vedas? I don’t think the Vedas are even an actual Aryan text. As for the opinion of Robert Oppenheimer by his peers, that’s irrelevant. Newton and Faraday were the most religious scientists much more religious than all of their peers, so what? The fact is Robert Oppenheimer was never raised to be a Hindu he was just attracted to it.

Lol the economists that were saying India had an advantage over China were white. Then you changed the subject to something about Indian fashion.

The only people who don’t understand how much creativity matters are the IQ fans. Why were so many of the greatest mathematicians, engineers, and physicists people who were uneducated and had low IQs? All IQ measures through Ockham’s razor is how well you can answer IQ test questions. But if IQ matters so much to you then some of the people with the most extremely high IQs are from India but none are from China. BTW my IQ is 140+ but I don’t really care about IQ.

According to the studies done, creativity definitely matters fool, but you wouldn’t know anything about studies. You just watch TV and saw some parent say “he’s not smart but he has creativity” then thought “oh that’s what dumb people say”.

According to real studies done IQ and Creativity are different.

“Initially, military scouts used conventional intelligence tests to identify such candidates. But they soon realized a high IQ was useless in finding inventive superpilots, and they resorted to more anecdotal measures.” - Kraft,  2005

LOL, the number of patents filed by China vs India? Quantity doesn’t matter dumbass, quality does. I’m sure with at least a 600 million educated literate advantage over India the Chinese definitely file more patents than Indians. But quality matters much more. Anyone can file patents for any meaningless idea they have, don’t you know that?

If the Chinese really are so creative as you claim then explain why given the supposed IQ advantage and
definite population advantage of at least 600 million literate why China hasn’t produced even ONE mathematician as good as Ramanujan or even Brahmagupta?

Creativity matters a lot for being a great mathematician, and since the Chinese win so many useless math contests that have to do with mimicking and copying, why aren’t any of the best mathematicians of all time Chinese if they have so much creativity like you claim?

Even one of Ramanujan’s formulas, like Ramanujan’s pi formula is worth more to mathematicians and computer scientists than winning the “International Math Olympiad” a 1000 times in a row.

Jagadish Chandra Bose is a better engineer than EVERY Chinese engineer that ever existed. That’s just a plain fact. He used 60 GHz frequencies back in the 1890s and was the very first to use the semiconductor junction to detect radio waves. The US actually uses concepts from his original paper even today.

“J.C. Bose was at least 60 years ahead of his time” - Nevill Mott

Then you mention India’s supposed high population. The only problem is India never had a high LITERATE population. Brahmins forbade others from learning to read similar to what Egyptians did. So India didn’t have a high literate population fool, it just had a high population.

Using relevant sources or quotations to support your argument is something done by everyone fool. In fact, you were the one who initially started to use quotes. Now you’re claiming it doesn’t matter and indicates inferiority complex, wtf? Just a sign of someone losing the argument.

I didn’t say Indian philosophy was a scientific fact fool, I said it has the very most advanced definition of God that stands up to science.

Then you tried to lie and say that I talk about Indians winning awards when I never did nor have. Chinese modest? Look at all the comments of the Chinese making fun of Indians and very few Indians responding back. I always see the Chinese bragging about their achievements all the time, so what are you talking about? Most of the Chinese people I know are either arrogant and mean-spirited or quiet and passive. Mao’s statement was just plain honesty, it’s undeniable that Buddhism originated in India and use to dominate China, and now still dominates Japan.

Who cares about gaining respect from racists? Respect will be gained naturally not from trying to suck up like the Chinese do. So I don’t care about these white nationalists losers.

@Wuddat lol…I hear a lot more white people being arrogant and claiming that whites are superior dumbass. By saying “IndiansAreSmarter” I was only referring to being smarter than the supposed average IQ of 81.

Stupid mlecchas, just like the truth Aryans will always prevail. But there aren’t many Aryans left in India anymore like when Ram ruled only a few now. A lot of Indians have transformed into self-hating fools and definitely don’t know anything about meditation, concentration or the real Aryan philosophy like I and only a few other pure Aryans do.


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Posted by one on Sat, 18 Sep 2010 04:15 | #

White people don’t know shit about history do they? You talk about the US being the “white man’s” land founded by whites for whites even though the founding fathers of the US were libertarians and didn’t put anything in the constitution saying it was for whites only, the reason why immigration laws were overturned was because of the founders’ vision that “all men are created equal”. They didn’t even want immigration laws at all, they truly wanted an entirely free country. So why are you loser white nationalists so against the people who built up America? America was NOT built for whites only.

Benjamin Franklin

Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased. And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People? why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red? But perhaps I am partial to the Compexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind.

John Jay

With equal pleasure I have as often taken notice that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people—a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs, and who, by their joint counsels, arms, and efforts, fighting side by side throughout a long and bloody war, have nobly established general liberty and independence.

Thomas Jefferson

Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them. It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation and deportation peaceably and in such slow degree as that the evil will wear off insensibly, and their place be pari passu filled up by free white laborers. If on the contrary it is left to force itself on, human nature must shudder at the prospect held up.

Thomas Jefferson

Will not a lover of natural history then, one who views the gradations in all the races of animals with the eye of philosophy, excuse an effort to keep those in the department of man as distinct as nature has formed them? . . . Among the Romans emancipation required but one effort. The slave, when made free, might mix with, without staining the blood of his master. But with us a second is necessary, unknown to history. When freed, he is to be removed beyond the reach of mixture.

Michael Lind, The New American Nation

The real Thomas Jefferson, as I have shown elsewhere in this and other chapters, was a fervent believer in white supremacy and the superiority of the Anglo-Saxon branch of the white race. His Anglo-Saxonism and racism were not tangential to his thought and career; neither his views on the colonization of black Americans nor his elaborate political and economic theories can be understood except as elements of a single project of preserving the purity of the Anglo-American race. Jefferson was obsessed, in particular, by the fear that his precious Anglo-Saxon nation would be corrupted by intermarriage with nonwhites.  Fear of miscegenation was perhaps the most consistent aspect of his thought, from his youth to his old age. During the American Revolution, Jefferson, as a member of a Virginia legislative committee charged with revising state law, helped to tighten the slave codes and forbid free blacks from becoming citizens - even as rules governing the immigration of whites were liberalized.  The Virginia legislature rejected, as too harsh, another proposal of Jefferson’s, which would have banished from the state any white woman bearing “a child by a negro or mulatto,” on pain of the enslavement of the child.


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Posted by IndiansAreSmarter on Sat, 18 Sep 2010 05:35 | #

@one lol…those quotes don’t come from the US constitution do they? They also have nothing to do with immigration laws but the personal beliefs of people (namely in separation)....The Founding Fathers of the US definitely did not believe in race mixing no doubt about it but they also definitely did not pass absolutely any legislation prohibiting immigration

The first immigration LAW came in the 1880s…well really the 1920s….not in the 1780s

But if you want to use quotes here’s some other quotes on immigration from the founding fathers of the US:
“Let the poor, the needy and oppressed of the Earth, and those who want Land, resort to the fertile plains of our western country, the Second Land of Promise, and there dwell in peace, fulfilling the first and great commandment” - George Washington

“Those who live under arbitrary power do nevertheless approve of Liberty, and wish for it” - Benjamin Franklin

“I hold the right of expatriation to be inherent in every man by the laws of nature, and incapable of being rightfully taken from him even by the united will of every other person in the nation. If the laws have provided no particular mode by which the right of expatriation may be exercised, the individual may do it by any effectual and unequivocal act or declaration.” - Thomas Jefferson

“Born in other countries, yet believing you could be happy in this, our laws acknowledge, as they should do, your right to join us in society, conforming, as I doubt not you will do, to our established rules. That these rules shall be as equal as prudential considerations will admit, will certainly be the aim of our legislatures, general and particular” - Thomas Jefferson

White Nationalists are living in a fantasy world that the founding fathers were against immigration. They were for one of the most free countries imaginable which socialists, national socialists and white nationalist today are trying to destroy.

The bottom line is the founding fathers never tried to have pass a European-only immigration law or anything like that, they just believed in separatism.


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Posted by one on Sat, 18 Sep 2010 07:00 | #

White Nationalists are living in a fantasy world that the founding fathers were against immigration. They were for one of the most free countries imaginable which socialists, national socialists and white nationalist today are trying to destroy.

Franklin wanted to exclude “all Blacks and Tawneys.” Jefferson wanted to deport blacks to Haiti. James Monroe belonged to the American Colonization Society.

Lincoln

A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation but as an immediate separation is impossible the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together.  If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas. That is at least one self-evident truth.

Johnson

This is a country for white men, and by God, as long as I am President, it shall be a government for white men.

The Constitution

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


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Posted by one on Sat, 18 Sep 2010 07:11 | #

Focus on a specific doctrine of long ago is a red herring.

Wilmot Robertson, The Ethnostate

Doctrinal Updating. It is no surprise that the argument for ethnostates clashes head-on with the doctrine of nationhood. The British constitution is unwritten, but it contains a body of law, some elements of which accelerated the breakup of the empire, but which would directly oppose devolution in the United Kingdom. To establish ethnostates in America the written constitution would have to be amended in such a manner as to make it almost unrecognizable. Among much else, the Declaration of Independence’s appeal for “a more perfect union” would have to be discarded in the wastebasket of ideas that have outlived their usefulness and been outmoded by time.

Traditions established by enduring forms of statehood exert a powerful force for conserving the state and for clinging to the status quo, which is why the breakup of larger into smaller political entities will be as fiercely resisted by conservatives as by liberals and leftists. For this reason, ethnostate advocates would do well to emphasize and highlight the impermanence of doctrine. Doctrine emerges from the collective will, if not of the people, at least of an elite. It addresses both the historical experience and the problems at hand. It steadies the ship of state and makes a great deal of sense as long as the seas do not get too stormy and the keel holds fast.

The American Founding Fathers composed the Bill of Rights, which provided strong legal protection to trespassers of the law by guaranteeing due process. If James Madison and George Mason, the two gentlemen most responsible for Amendments I through X of the Constitution, had lived in New York City two centuries later and faced the same task, would they have produced the same document? The Bill of Rights was devised for a small, pioneering nation, whose citizenry derived almost entirely from the British Isles. These Britons had developed a certain respect for individual rights and had already succeeded in abolishing some of the more tyrannical aspects of absolutism.

Two centuries later in New York City, where crime is almost out of control, where the British element of the population has all but vanished, where the population is largely composed of inimical and feuding racial groups, many of whose members had migrated from countries with no experience whatsoever with democracy, the conditions confronting the authors working on a new Bill of Rights would be radically different from the conditions that existed in the late 18th century.

At work on a new or revised Bill of Rights, Madison and Mason would certainly have extended much more legal protection to the victims of crime than to criminals. Nevertheless, leaders of almost all political persuasions, as well as the minority members who directly benefit from the liberties provided by the first Ten Amendments, keep appealing to the Constitution and due process when they try, in most cases in vain, to cope with the surge of criminality. Unheedful of the sound proverbial advice, autres temps, autres moeurs, the same constitutional protections are still in place. What was appropriate two centuries ago for one population group is by no means appropriate for a totally different mix of people in a vast, unwieldy, crime-ridden heterogeneous nation.

Doctrine depends on time and place. When time and place change, doctrine, if it is to continue to have any relevancy, must change. As history painfully demonstrates, however, it is one of the last things to change. More often than not, political doctrines have to be dragged up to the present and revised and remodeled by force. The more doctrine lags behind the times, the more abrupt will be the way it is changed, when it can no longer avoid change. The breathless modernization of Japan in the latter half of the 19th century, the transformation of the British Empire into the British Commonwealth, the convulsions of the Soviet Union in the 20th century, the establishment of the European Community—all these radical changes, sometimes violent, sometimes peaceful, were preceded or accompanied by radical changes of doctrine.

anyone can piece together a doctrine. The trick is to formulate one that is realistic, that applies to the conditions at hand and has a better than even chance of being implemented. In an age when much of the world is graying with pollution, uniformity and lawlessness, when nations are losing what little character they have left, growing numbers of Westerners are ready to shed anachronistic doctrines for ones better suited to the times. Hanging on to dead ideas that should have been buried long since, is, besides being an invitation to disaster, a perversion that comes close to ideological necrophilia.

Wilmot Robertson, Ventilations

Also to be rigorously avoided are ringing appeals to save “our cherished institutions.” Races make institutions, not vice versa. The Constitution will never save the Majority, but the Majority, once again in control of the state, may save the Constitution.


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Posted by Jeff on Sun, 19 Sep 2010 02:59 | #

Just watching a video about French were deporting ROMA people. ROMA have been in Europe petty long, why they are still living in isolated camp? The fate of Roma in EU could have some clue why the caste system can last > 3000 years in India.


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Posted by dave on Sun, 19 Sep 2010 13:45 | #

The Roma are also from India, and it seems that their IQ is also very low.


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Posted by Fred Scrooby on Sun, 19 Sep 2010 16:19 | #

I copied all three of “one’s” posts, above, for saving in my computer.


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Posted by IndiansAreSmarter on Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:39 | #

@one….there were no immigration restrictions up until the Page Act of 1875 (which was against the Chinese)....The Founding Fathers of the US placed absolutely no restrictions on immigration at all and definitely did not want any type of immigration law, there were many non-citizens living freely and willingly and founders didn’t do anything about it or try to pass any law or act against it. Thomas Jefferson staunchly believed that immigration was a natural right.

Many other European countries had immigration laws and restrictions but America didn’t, America was supposed to be a different, new, free country.

The founding fathers wanted most problems people had to be solved without using any type of government force or laws.

After US politicians started going against the will of the founders things started falling down and the “free country” called America started to become lost and gone

White Nationalists are definitely against libertarianism and the founding fathers, they’re more for left-wing socialism and national socialism, strong regulations, bigger government, regulation of markets, and more government control. And their hero biologist is liberal atheist James D. Watson and increasingly more White Nationalists now are atheists and agnostics or non-religious and 95% of China is atheist. They want the government to restrict and control everything and are trying to ruin the country with their big government national socialist ideals.


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Posted by JT on Fri, 24 Sep 2010 01:07 | #

the reason for IQ diffrence between indians and chinese is the diversity of indian population being higher than the chinese. indians have some extremely brilliant people but the majority is not.on the other hand chinese may not have the extremely brilliant people but on average less diverse but higher IQ population.

I keep reading similar sentiments like this but the facts don’t support this.  As many commentators have already pointed out,  the Chinese dominate most Science-based competetions like the Math, Physics, Chemistry, Informatics and Biology Olympiad.  East asians, as a rule, do very well with westerners close behind.  Indians don’t even come close.  Even when it comes to computer programming—supposedly, the Indian forte —east asians and westerners still dominate.  The thing about these competitions is that they don’t compare the average students of one country with the average students of another;  they compare the best and the brightest of one country with the best and the brightest of another.  So if India have more—and smarter—high IQ people than China, shouldn’t they do a lot better in these competitions? 

The argument works a lot better with a country like Russia.  Based on Lynn’s book, Russia’s average IQ is no better than most western countries.  While Lynn’s research methodololgy may be questionable, other studies suggest that the country’s average performance pretty much falls in line with western averages.  And, yet, Russia does very well in international science contests; definitely better than the US in Math and computer programming.  While there are other factors to consider—culture, politics, etc—, it does suggest that Russia’s average IQ is pretty much close to western averages but that it has a pretty high number of high IQ people.  (Could it be because of its Jewish minority?)  India, on the hand, seems to score lower accross the board…whether your comparing averages, top 1% or bottom 1%.


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Posted by Awards on Sat, 16 Oct 2010 04:10 | #

@JT Who cares about competitions that have nothing to do with advancing mathematics or physics or science at all? China does very well when it comes to the most useless, worthless, meaningless competitions that involve answering questions that have already been answered or memorizing and copying rather than contributing and advancing…and China has the very highest literate population in the entire world, more than half a billion more than India and 300 million more than all white people.

Winning competitions has to do with who participate and the countries education system. A lot of the best mathematicians and physicists never participated in the IMO or IPO at all.

Other countries that have nearly the same genetic make up as China like Hong Kong don’t do nearly as well in competitions. India beat Hong Kong most of the years in the useless IMO Competition even though Hong Kong supposedly has a much higher average IQ than India according to Lynn.

Given the fact that China has the highest literate population and wins all the competitions that have to do with answering things that have already been answered we should expect all of the best mathematicians and physicists to be Chinese, but Chinese contributions are disproportionately low for their literate population size. If population size and IQ are not the reason for their disproportionately low contributions then the only reason left is Creativity.

About Mathematics Awards…

S. R. Srinivasa Varadhan won the Abel Prize in 2007, no Chinese mathematician has ever won the Abel Prize.

The Abel Prize is like the Nobel Prize of Mathematics, awarding nearly $1 million USD, and is open to everyone.

The Fields Medal prize is not open to everyone, only people under the age of 40, and only awards $15,000 USD. But the work of Indian mathematicians like Chandrashekhar Khare, Manjul Bhargava, Mandhu Sudan, Srinivasa Varadhan, and other Indian mathematicians are just as impressive as any who won the Fields Medal.

Manindra Agrawal and Manjul Bhargava won the Clay Research Mathematics Award, only 1 Chinese person has ever won the Clay Research Award, that was Terence Tao.

Madhu Sudan won the Rolf Nevanlinna Mathematics Prize, which is nearly the same as the Fields Medal, no Chinese mathematician has ever won the Nevanlinna Prize.

Kannan Soundararajan and Manjul Bhargava won the Morgan Prize, no Chinese mathematician won yet.

Harish-Chandra and Manjul Bhargava won the Cole Prize, no Chinese mathematician has won the Cole Prize yet.

But no one who has won any of these mathematics awards and prizes is as impressive as the legendary mathematicians like Euler, Ramanujan, John von Neumann, Newton, Gauss, Euclid, Archimedes, or any of the other great mathematicians of the past.


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Posted by dave on Sat, 16 Oct 2010 10:09 | #

How can you compare Hong Kong that has only 7 m people and India with 1,2 b people. You obviously don’t understand that the average IQ of population is important for a country to become developed. You cannot have a developed nation if you have a few geniuses and the rest of the population is retarded.

And compare the results of 20 million Taiwanese Chinese and 1,2 billion Indians at the Math Olympiad, you Indians can not beat even 20 million Chinese lol.


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Posted by Crunchy on Sat, 16 Oct 2010 16:35 | #

Even Hong Kong, with a population of 7 millions, occasionally beats India at the Math Olympiad.  These happens in 2010, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 1989

One thing I just noticed is that there seems to be a sharp drop in India’s performance at the Math Olympiad starting in 2005.  Anybody has any theory on that?


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Posted by Test Tube babies on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 15:41 | #

This year Robert Edwards got the nobel prize in medicine for producing the world’s first test tube baby.However,within 67 days(less than 3 months) of that achievement,Subhas Mukherjee independently created India’s first (and world’s second) test tube baby using an entirely new and innovative method.Subhas’s techinique was faster,simpler,safer and has a much higher success rate than Robert’s method.And in fact,it is Subhas’s technique and not Robert’s,that is the preferred method of IVF in modern medicine.

Subhas was the first person to work with frozen embroys and his method of “nitrogen freezing” is widely used today.India’s first test tube baby,Durga,is still doing well.Unfortunately,such was the criticism of his work at the time,that Dr.Subhas had to commit suicide.Such a tragedy!

Yet another example of an Indian genius.


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Posted by Jeff on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 18:11 | #

@Test Tube babies.
  This is really a sad story. Did he achieve his accomplishments in India or out of India? What kind of criticism caused his suicide?


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Posted by Real China on Mon, 29 Nov 2010 04:23 | #

A toilet in the Chinese countryside is a harrowing experience and one you will unfortunately remember for the rest of your life. The smell from a Chinese toilet can permeate the air for some considerable distance. It is a stench that on entering may send one into retreat. What may greet you is a row of rectangular holes in the ground all strewn with lumps of stale faeces and used toilet paper. There are no doors on the stalls, sometimes, even no partitions between the holes. But it isn’t just the toilets in the country that are filthy. Even toilets in big cities can be particularly unsavoury. It is not uncommon to enter a cubicle to find the previous occupant has not flushed. Perhaps such bad toilet habits are learnt whilst very young. Children can sometimes be seen urinating on the street. Many Chinese children have never worn a diaper or nappy. Instead, they have a big slit that, when they stoop down, opens and allows them to urinate or otherwise. In the last few months I have witnessed mothers allowing their young children to urinate on station platforms, streets in the heart of Qianmen and at tourist attractions, including the entrance to a Buddhist temple on the outskirts of Beijing.

China is incredibly dirty. Streets are often littered with discarded food, fruit, paper and other waste. Even in some supermarkets the grime seen on floors would shock most westerners. The most noticeable dirty habit of many Chinese people is spitting. Chinese men especially have the disgusting habit of making loud hawking sounds and spitting the contents of their actions on the road, pavement or wherever they happen to be. While it is mostly men, women too can be seen participating in this vulgar habit. Some people even spit on the bus, and onto the floors of restaurants and public toilets. Many Chinese people also seem to blow their noses in a most indiscreet and vulgar fashion. Handkerchiefs or tissues appear to be too much trouble. Instead people are often seen to use their thumb and forefinger to press their nose and loudly blow out
the contents onto the street.

In China it is not uncommon to see meat lying out on the counter and the vendor using bare hands to handle it. In summer, it often lies out in the sweltering heat all day. On streets people sell vegetables and fruit, sometimes just laid directly on the ground. They are seemingly oblivious to the fact these are the same streets upon which people spit and on which dogs defecate.

Littering is another apparently accepted habit. A recent visit to the Forbidden City in the heart of Beijing revealed how many were just unable to comprehend the use of a litter-bin. The vast courtyard leading up to the entrance of the Forbidden City was strewn with tissues, sunflower seed husks, apple cores, banana peel, orange peel, discarded corn cobs, plastic bottles and bags. My Chinese wife, who has lived in Britain many years, was also shocked at the scene which resembled not so much an ancient monument to China’s past than a garbage dump.



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Posted by dave on Mon, 29 Nov 2010 13:25 | #

you can go to any big country, including the US, to find all kind of shit(see Detroit on youtube), but it is very hard to find a country where 650 million people (about 50%)defecate in open, like in India.

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/oct/15/in-india-665-million-defecate-in-open-un.htm

And India also has more poor people than Africa:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10609407

So it is probably true that India’s average IQ is 81.


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Posted by Hamish on Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:56 | #

Comparing India to sub-Saharan Africa would be a great exaggeration of how awful things are in India.

Just try comparing the average life expectancy in India to South Africa.

In spite of the fact that the Black South Africans have lots of White doctors propping up their health, and in spite of the fact that the average life expectancy in South Africa includes the longer lived White population in its calculations, the average Indian still lives more than a decade longer than the average South African:

Life expectancy in India…63.7 years

Life expectancy in South Africa…51.5 years

Source: World Bank.


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Posted by Altec on Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:30 | #

To Real China,

I watched the video you posted and it is not that shocking.  For example, in the video you posted to show the rural poverty in China, the children there seems to be in good health, albeit living a spartan life and without modern material comfort.  But if you check out the poverty in India, the poor children looks to be in starvation, with protruded rib bones, distended bellies and skinny limbs that seems to be just skin over bones.

Also, China is the top executioner in terms of absolute number, but it is the per capita figure that matters.  Singapore is actually the world’s top executioner per capita.


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Posted by Real China on Sat, 04 Dec 2010 02:37 | #

Chinese biggest killer of endangered animals!!

Chinese illegal trade in endangered animals, worlds largest illegal industry;

Chinese illegal trade in tiger body parts, leading to its extinction,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG3-rSQH7pA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLJQsk08J9Y&feature=related
Shark fins trade; Over 100 million are killed!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQASelIMJjc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNcG-hJ4L9g&feature=related
Chinas illegal trade in Ivory, causing extinction of Elephants;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PkRtXXImVA
Eating wildlife, snake dinner in China; LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj5rPECuPKE
Chinese cooking and eating rats and dogs!! LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu-n9jxhqLo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIsyqhDTXgs&feature=related
Grilled dog on menu in Nanning china,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gAU2ex2LvM&feature=related
Dog slaughter in China,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNxw-tEn2SE&feature=related

More real China Videos Enjoy;
Dirty and filthy China!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KffebqxPoYE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkzwnQvWR38&feature=related
A walk in chinese countryside;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMPRO1R7Q48&feature=related
Old filthy village in Ghoungzhou China;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bDlfxbW8sk&feature=related
Chinese eating dogs!! LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_x_SO5Q0dk
Chinese eating baby fetus!! serious mate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8Uiavn_EN0


After looking at this one can eassily guess the real intelligence of Chinese people is no better than abroginals and tribals, it is because the IQ test can be taught and taking them again and again improve your score, some Chinese have done allright, otherwise all the chinese I have met was dumb and have poor communication and interpersonal skills, they used to sit hours and hours in the librarary to get the same grades as any other students. Its the practice and familarity with the IQ tests which makes certain people perform better than the others. Most IQ tests are designed to judge your familarity with the modern world, like the use of figures, analytical skills and reasoning. If you are a graduate, live in a urban area and live in a modern world with the use of technology, you are bound to score better in the IQ tests than the rural and uneducated tribal folk. The documentary Race and intelligence science last taboo, made for channel 4 in 2009 has taken a unbiased view of race and intelligence, and proved that race is a social construct, in reality there is not much difference between intelligence of various human populations. IQ test also can measure creativity, intellectual ability, pragmatism,  musical ability,  individual performance and dedication and general grasp of knowledge, attention to detail etc.

Race and intelligence science last taboo, an unbiased view about the IQ test scores and intelligence myths: inclusing interview from Flynn, Rushton and other scientists!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM6Ekv4L6h4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkYXSzxlhtY&feature=related


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Posted by Real China on Sat, 04 Dec 2010 06:44 | #

Correction: IQ test cannot measure creativity, intellectual ability, pragmatism, musical ability, individual performance and dedication and general grasp of knowledge, attention to detail etc


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Posted by ZoForia on Fri, 17 Dec 2010 11:23 | #

m n indian…
extc engineer..
workin as a survey engg. in d gulf…
(i think i shd delete dis info.; few ppl myt get biased by it..nvm, i’ll leave it)
i read half f d comments here… nothin really interestin…zzzz…yawn..!
abt science n physics… i thinks its a religion developed in d late 18th century… gained a strong foothold cuz it was able 2 satisfactorily xplain lodsa phenomena..
but now, in d 21st century where v can aid our eyes wid more powerful telescopes n microscopes…
science is in trouble.. physics has turned to metaphysics… many things cant b xplained by dis religion..
theories were reformulated 2 breakdown atoms further into protons,etc n den dey r further split into quarks n now strings??
n den wt abt d largest body in d universe
...n d farthest one??
ders certainly no limit.. 4 d wts smallest or d largest… its only our scope f comprehension dat limits it…
in theory, der will always b another rational no. between any two…
formulatin d laws f d universe is lyk formulatin n equation for d randomness f prime nos…(which cant b done..so tym 2 adopt a new religion now..)
newly proposed theories r resortin 2 n-dimensions n multiple universe…
inexplicable phenomenas observed in sky gave rise 2 concept f black holes n den white holes…
n den worm holes 4 travel between d two… n den d anti matter…wtf!!
had science always been so absurd..!
wtf has happend 2 d scientific community..!!
science in d future will b registered as another religion(more rational den other, though) f d history..


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Posted by ZoForia on Fri, 17 Dec 2010 11:33 | #

leme also tell u ...
chinese culture is very original n fascinatin 2 me afte my own culture.. a lot can b learnt frm it..
I’ve studied Feng Shui.. n also d subtle differences between it n d Vastu Shastra
I admire d chinese hospitality.. n politeness.. but i also think dat d chinese govt. is really thinkin f d world as a chess game..
I luv chinese, paki, srilankan, nepali n dun hate bangladeshi.. (luv thy neighbour as thyself)
I hav worked wid dem UK, US guys, filipinos, n other europeans, also arabics…
all r very good n very human like..
I dun know where dese haters who posted d above comments come from.. dey def. r not frm one f dese countries..


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Posted by Citizen on Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:05 | #

Most folk methods of gauging intelligence are useless and not representative of real general intelligence. 

I believe Indian intelligence is frequently overestimated using these methods because of factors like how their culture emphasizes social interaction and discourages violence. 

This means they adopt most social behaviors that people of higher intelligence and soft upbringing adopt and therefore are hard to tell apart.

Lack of intelligence is much easier to identify when you do things like frequently criticize or rant about things you don’t understand.  Indians may do this when they think the target or it’s champions have no social repercussions, but it goes against their social conditioning for the most part (which is different than understanding why it is silly behavior, or understanding better the thing they would criticize). 

Intelligence measures things like how easily can you extract meanings of words from their contexts, or how complex of a pattern of change between numbers can your mind automatically identify.  It controls how many abstract classes you can generate from the things you experience, which allows you to better deductively reason.  For instance challenged people may not generate enough such classes to tell a dog from a cat.  If all you have to reason with is {furry} and {four-legged} then you would think it is just as likely to meow as it is to bark. 

So people with low IQ’s might seem smart if they act a certain way, but they may not be good at solving novel problems using novel solutions. 

Also, it’s my belief that in developed nations it is taboo to use whatever intelligence you have efficiently. 
The speedup in learning it causes creates friction between you and others as you are challenging other people’s feelings of self-worth.  Intelligence may not make much of a difference in a 200 yr old company that values the ability to suck up to bosses more than the ability to solve problems, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t still measure some universal ability to extract information from your surroundings.


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Posted by ChinaHasLessGenius on Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:28 | #

@Crunchy Hong Kong does well some times in the Math Olympiad, but so what? Every single question asked in the Math Olympiad has already been answered. If the Chinese and East Asians were doing more than simply mimicking and copying answers we would’ve expected them to be the best mathematicians, yet the Chinese and East Asians don’t make good mathematicians, they make good people who can win math contests.

France does poorly in the International Math Olympiad, yet French Mathematicians contribute much much more than Chinese mathematicians do and have already won 10 Fields Medals with a staggeringly lower population size. How is that possible?

If India can rank high in the IMO some years and bad in others and France can perform badly yet still produce many mathematicians who contribute that just shows that IMO indicates nothing more than education rather than mathematical talent.

Contributions show what you can do beyond memorizing and copying, so if the Chinese were doing more we would be able to see it in the Chinese contributions towards mathematics. Instead China has never won any Fields Medal, and the 2 Chinese who have won the Fields Medal made their contributions in non-Chinese countries.

It’s strange how a country like India with such a low standard of living can still produce poor uneducated geniuses but China with millions of poor people never produces poor uneducated geniuses…how is this? There’s poor uneducated geniuses found among Europeans, Jews, and Indians, but not the Chinese, how is this? If someone’s poor and uneducated then we know much of their genius is innate. China has more than 500 million literate people so it can’t be population size, and China supposedly has a faked\guessed higher IQ, so it can’t be IQ, so what’s left?

Obviously the Chinese are either less intelligent, less creative or don’t produce as many geniuses as India does. The percentage of geniuses produced is much more relevant than average IQ. If a population with an average IQ of 100 produces no geniuses they will contribute much less than a population with an average IQ of 80 with a very high percentage of geniuses.

The modern day Indian mathematician Manjul Bhargava who is the 2nd youngest full professor at Princeton is more impressive than modern day Chinese mathematician Terrence Tao according to Princeton Generals. Terrence Tao didn’t do well with Princeton generals. Manjul Bhargava’s contributions have already found more applications than Tao’s contributions as well.


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Posted by WhoCaresAboutTheIMO on Thu, 20 Jan 2011 07:04 | #

@dave that’s funny because every single question asked in the International Math Olympiad has already been answered. The IMO is nothing more than a hard math exam. The IMO measures nothing more than education. If the Chinese are so good at mathematics then why can’t they answer unanswered math questions? Why can they only answer math questions that have already been answered?

Also you’re wrong about population size, population size isn’t relevant, literate population size is, India has a literate population of around 700 million where as China has one around 1.2 billion, meaning China has 500 million more literate people.

That’s funny how France never won the IMO even once, the very highest ranking France achieved since entering the IMO in 1967 was #5, France usually gets a ranking of 20 or lower in the IMO, yet France has already won 10 Fields Medals where as China has won the IMO so many times yet never won even one Fields Medal. How is that possible?

After winning the worlds most useless math competition - the International Math Olympiad what does China have to show for it? NOTHING! France on the other hand never won the International Math Olympiad even once and already has 10 Fields Medals. Russia who achieves high rankings in the IMO has already won 9 Fields Medals. China who always wins the IMO has 0 Fields Medal.

The conclusion: International Math Olympiad = Useless Indicator


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Posted by Who cares about the Fields Medal on Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:46 | #

One each of the American and Australian winners has been Chinese (Shing-Tung Yau and Terrance Tao). Of the French winners, one is Jewish, one German and one Vietnamese. Three Japanese have also been recipients.

Just in case there’s any doubt that North Asians can’t do the heavy lifting themselves.


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Posted by Tao is a Legend on Mon, 24 Jan 2011 17:48 | #

Actually,Tao is pretty much a legend in the mathematical community.The majority of experts rate him as the best,or at least one of the best,mathematical minds in the entire world.

The thing with Princeton Generals and Tao happened when Tao was 18.He is 34 now and has come a long way since.It can be safely said that Tao has now surpassed all his Princeton examiners.

Some have even compared Tao to the all time greats and said that he can be easily put in the same bracket as Einstein or Newton.That’s quite a complement for a person who is still alive and only 34 years of age.

I agree that Indians have a lot of mathematical ability,but no need to put down others to prove that.


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Posted by Tao is a Legend on Mon, 24 Jan 2011 18:11 | #

@citizen

You are wrong,pattern recognition depends a lot on familiarity with patterns and you can’t be familiar with patterns right from birth.People with higher IQs are usually familiar with a lot of abstract patterns.So there is a component of IQ that can be practiced.

One of the problems with India is that there are many flaws in the school and education system.
Despite that,I am sure if IQs of educated Indians in middle class families of 2011A.D ,and not the rural ones,are much higher.


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Posted by Goethe on Mon, 24 Jan 2011 22:05 | #

Actually,Tao is pretty much a legend in the mathematical community.The majority of experts rate him as the best,or at least one of the best,mathematical minds in the entire world.

He hasn’t solved a millennium prize problem. wink


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Posted by Another Indian on Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:01 | #

As far as I know the only person who has solved a millennium prize problem so far is Grigori Perelman.That guy is quite incredible.You guys should also check his IMO scores.He only appeared once and got a PERFECT score.Although that doesn’t change the fact that Tao too has an extra-ordinary reputation.In any case I don’t know how to rate or compare mathematicians.It’s a meaningless waste of energy,so I am going move back to the IQ topic.


Anyway,I recently read 2 very interesting books -one is called “Genius Explained” by Michael Howe and second one is “the number sense” written by a mathematician who turned into a neurobiologist.The first book takes a psyco-biographical approach and the second book takes a neurobiological approach,but both come to the same conclusion that extra-ordinary achievements in mathematics or any other field is very much more dependent on the quantity and quality of training,rather than any specific genes.It seems that all humans are born with a capacity for abstraction,but only few have the right kind of personalities and opportunities to get the right kind of abstract training.

Howe’s book is particularly interesting and it deals specifically with the topic of genius and also touches upon IQ concepts.IQ can actually be increased.Howe argues that studies show that it takes at least 10thousand hours of training to Really excel at anything.Yet only 100 hours of intelligence programs have shown notable gains in IQs.He also points out the difference between experience and environment and it is experience and not environment that directly shapes a person.It’s also a flawed concept that genes can determine complex traits like intelligence in such a one to one fashion.Genes and environment continuously interact to produce the individuals.His book shows that if you examine geniuses,you find that all of them had spend a lot of time training and they all got the right kind of personalities as well as the right opportunities.Also,high IQ and genius have no correlation,even though geniuses do tend to have above average IQ.


Tao himself thinks that being a high achieving mathematician is more about being hard-working,systematic and devoted than about any “innate” intelligence.(read his blog)He also admits that a bit of luck is sometimes necessary.


I don’t know how many of you know this ,but there are computer programs that can score 160+ in IQ tests.But do you honestly believe that a computer is smarter than the average human?Also,there are many myths about IQ.The reason for this is that IQ itself is a flawed concept.Yet here in India ,there is very little emphasis on development and too much emphasis on ‘in-born talent”.India certainly has the genes,but very few get the right kind of opportunities to develop. 

So,stop the racism and think constructively,rather than destructively.


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Posted by Goethe on Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:23 | #

In any case I don’t know how to rate or compare mathematicians.

Being a mathematician would help. *waves* smile

Howe argues that studies show that it takes at least 10thousand hours of training to Really excel at anything.

Complete rubbish.

It’s also a flawed concept that genes can determine complex traits like intelligence in such a one to one fashion.Genes and environment continuously interact to produce the individuals.

This is true. Instead of ‘one to one fashion’, you should be saying ‘one-to-one correspondence’.

His book shows that if you examine geniuses,you find that all of them had spend a lot of time training and they all got the right kind of personalities as well as the right opportunities.Also,high IQ and genius have no correlation,even though geniuses do tend to have above average IQ.

Not true.

Tao himself thinks that being a high achieving mathematician is more about being hard-working,systematic and devoted than about any “innate” intelligence.(read his blog)He also admits that a bit of luck is sometimes necessary.

Of course he would think that way, if he has to use the ideas of others. He’s obviously an example of the pinnacle of Asian intellect, but that doesn’t mean he is on par with the top Europeans. And applied math is icky. =)


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Posted by Another Indian on Wed, 26 Jan 2011 00:37 | #

@Goethe

Being a mathematician would help.

Not that much really.Mathematics isn’t a 100m sprint.It’s pretty much impossible to produce a single quantity to judge a mathematician.There is no mathematician or scientist or inventor that produced a completely original work.All ideas are built upon other more elementary ideas.This is different to sprinting for example.

Einstein always knew that true originality does not exist,the best you can do is to do your best “to hide your sources”.

As for the rest,you are merely stating your opinions by denying facts and carefully done studies.The amount of time spent to train/practice on a subject systematically is the single best predictor of success in any field.The majority of people regarded as geniuses with known IQs have IQs in the range 110-135.

And it’s not just Asians ,your western Stephen Hawking said that those who boast about their IQs are losers.


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Posted by Goethe on Wed, 26 Jan 2011 02:43 | #

It’s impossible for anyone to be completely original at anything.

Einstein certainly knew that, which is how he obtained credit for Poincare’s idea.

It’s the most direct predictor, but you must keep in mind that there are prerequisites to almost everything.

When I say ‘genius’, I mean 160+ IQ =)


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Posted by Al Ross on Wed, 26 Jan 2011 07:56 | #

“India certainly has the genes”. Brahmins and Parsis provide a disproportionate number of India’s cognitive elite.

As for the average Indian :

http://www.vdare.com/rushton/070926_indians.htm


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Posted by Another Indian on Wed, 26 Jan 2011 12:36 | #

@Goethe
That’s not the definition of genius.Only IQ experts and psychologists trying to sell their product(IQ tests) want to make us believe in that kind of definition.In the west they certainly know how to do marketing and politics.If that definition were true the likes of Rick Rosner or Chris Langan who have done nothing in their lives will be considered geniuses,but the likes of Feynman ,Poincare or Al Gore will not be.That’s quite ridiculous to say the least.


@Al Ross
That’s a bogus article with no evidence.I am a brahmin myself ,but I don’t buy that-even more so because it’s from Rushton..

Just to give an example-Jews are nowadays considered very smart,but at the beginning of 20th century they actually scored below average in IQ tests.

Someone already posted a documentary called “Race and intelligence”.That was a nice documentary.Watch that and all myths will break.Rushton’s arguments were refuted systematically.


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Posted by Al Ross on Wed, 26 Jan 2011 16:50 | #

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/06/indias-average-iq-in-2100.html


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Posted by Caesar on Tue, 01 Feb 2011 05:27 | #

@ Another Indian,

Since you yourself is a brahmin, you should be able to comprehend the notion that there are difference between brahmin Indians and non-Indians just as there are difference between dalits, adivasis and people of the OBCs and SCs and brahmins.


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Posted by The_Observer on Tue, 01 Mar 2011 07:25 | #

It is obvious that Indians are clever at talking a good game and getting away with corruption.  They beat the Chinese hands down on both accounts.


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Posted by vina on Fri, 08 Apr 2011 18:07 | #

The case of Vietnam is more complicated. People from the North of Vietnam is very similar to the people from South of China (actually, they once belonged to a country Nam Viet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanyue) while people from the South is a kind of mixing with the native people (i.e. Cambodia, Malaysia, etc) during the process of southward expansion of the territory.
There are quite a few differences between the two groups. Some typical stereotypes are: The Northerner are taller and white while the Southerner are short and darker. The Northerner are more tough, thrifty, valued education and family tradition while the Southerner are more relax.
The North won the war and many South Vietnam people fledged to the US. They (the South) have not been very successful (academically and economically) there.  They create the image of Vietnamese people but clearly it’s not very exact. The Northerner seem closer to the North Asia than Southeast Asia people. The Vietnamese guy who just won the Fields Medal is from the North. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngô_B?o_Châu
Children of former Vietnamese guest-workers are also among the highest performing pupils in German schools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_achievement_among_different_groups_in_Germany


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Posted by Anoop on Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:28 | #

There is a lot of verbal bashing going on here. I read through, some of them, but lost it completely after the first few.

IQ, I believe, is not a sole derivative of inherent intelligence. I believe it to be a sum product of your inherent intelligence, your trained intellignence, the sustained effort you put into maintaining your level of active usage of brain, and the level of concentration that you are able to devote at any given point of time.

If I take a test when my kid is not well and is in hospital, I might not fare upto my true potential.
I remember having liked mathematics too much in my school/college days, but down the line I changed my career to Finance. If you give me a problem, in trigonometry, I will not be able to solve now.

Being an Indian, I will be able to critically speak about the problems in India. China, I am not sure. In India huge number of people are in villages which are very very backward. Education is not given too much importance there. The family wants the kid to be useful in the labour work that they do. So while they might send the kids to the school, the atmosphere is not condusive to learning. Compare that with a much more educated state/city. Majority of Indians are in the middle income category. They have big dreams, and are able to lead a good life, but might not end their life being a multi billionare. They realise that whatever they have earned for themselves and for their family is ONLY by education. And they try to impart the same education to their kids. They try to send their kids to better schools, better environment. The time the whole of India follows this pattern the productivity of Indians as a whole will go up. The current expolitation of the uneducated mass will come to an end. Unlike China, the government of India is very very slow, as it has to go through a “democratic” process for reforms. It has made the education FREE and a constitutional right to every child. Not giving education is a crime, but in practicality, the implementation is poor. No body comes and takes a parent to the court for not sending his kid to school. I am not sure what is the system in China, but am very sure that the decisions are actually Implemented at most sincerity (or say most strictly)

Having said all these, I do not believe educated Indians are second to any one. All of my friends are quite capable of undertaking any task with equal or better efficiency than any one else in this world.


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Posted by kqk on Fri, 06 May 2011 04:04 | #

the east asian iq is definitely higher than south asian. the south asians really have no achievements to be proud of, the east asian’s achievement beats south asians hands down, in both scientific breakthroughs and the quantity of them. secondly, of all well known international competitions, east asians consistently top south asians. south asians including indians can only brag about their awards no one else has really heard of. but at any competitions where east asians compete, indians simply have no chance… they so often use the excuse of “indians have to study for the college exam” or “they don’t really care about those competition”, the truth is, in any well known competitions, indians sent just as many people as east asians, yet they trail way behind the east asians in scores, during which time the east asians also have to study for college entrance exams. the point is, south asians are not creative, not smart and build their countries like a dung hole, comparable only by sub-sahara african countries. just for the record, singapore is 70% chinese(east asian) thank god it’s not 70% indian, otherwise it will just turn into another poverty striken sri lanka.


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 06 May 2011 13:32 | #

The main difference is that india was colonized by england and China was not despite the efforts of europeans to try that.
Despite the incredible mess in eraly 20th century China, the western powers did not succeed in conquering China, and that’s the main reson China has done well and india is a mess.
Democracy only works in Europe and North America, it’s not a suitable system in Asia.

Not one former colonized country has done well, especially those colonized by europeans, all of them are sorry countries. All of them.


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 06 May 2011 13:45 | #

To compare China to india is a big mistake: only western press does this.

Despite the shameless boasting of indians who problably live on another planet, they are sorry people,
seems some of them are actually incredibly stupid as well.

I mean they cannot even build a proper bridge or highway, so what stupid ass wants to compare india with China.

China has better engineers, sportsmen, military, scientists, economists, so what do you want to compare?!


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 06 May 2011 14:17 | #

All right let’s compare China with india:

infrastructure: China wins hands down, China is even ahead of western countries in high speed rail, we have better looking highways and they are even better than what you would encounter than in western countries,
We have much more taller towers, better quality housing, roads etc. etc. in transport and housing China is more like in west.

Military: China military is bigger, yes of course, better trained, better educated, and more competent than indians, Chinese military equipment is much better than indian equipment who receives hand outs from russians, or useless stuff. there is no comparison in this field. Chinese military equipment surpasses anything that europeans produce, only the americans are more innovative than us at this moment, but since j-20 fighter China has closed the gap. india on the other hand is and will always be dependent of foreign aid, in designing weapons systems and producing weapons. They simply do not have the base to produce weapons. While China always had heavy industries (steel, machines etc.)

Scientists: China is so far ahead I don’t want to discuss this.

Sports: China wins 150 gold medals at Asian games while india wins 1 or 2 in totallly unknown sports that nobody plays or have heard of.

Economy: China is so much ahead I don’t want to compare this. Everybody knows.

Landscape: China has everything, beautiful mountains, steppes, lakes, rivers, beautiful nature, exceptional diverse flora and fauna (all plants and flowers from eurasia, exceptional fauna diversity, from deserts to ice, from artic weather to sub tropical weather.
All in one country, diversity wise only America can compare to China.

China is a so much better country.


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 06 May 2011 16:13 | #

And something else I am the expert!

I know more about race, haplogroups, genes etc. than anybody in this forum retards who quote from a rretarded website like wikipedia.

the upper class of indians called themselves “aryans” or in fact iranians who invaded india in 1200 b.c.
the area which we call the mddle east. So how did the “aryans” looked liked? They looked as iranians of today iran and they also looked as iraqi insurgents (americans are very creative in picking words, I had to laugh about insurgents instead of iraqi rebels or something like that)

Now we know the mutation taht caused paleness and colored eyes originated with mongoloids, yes, not from the people from the middle east.

So I can describe europeans as lightened up middle easterners with blend of mongoloid. So if I look purely at genes, all europeans are at least 50% middle easterners, depend of the area: spaniards and greeks maybe be 90% to 100% compatible with middle easteners like syrians and palestinians while the europeans of the north who have more mongoloid input are also paler and have coloured hair adn eyes thank to the ancient mongoloids who went to europe. How come you fail to recognize the link of mongoloid R1a and R1b are also the people who areblond and blue eyed, just like the finns who are over 60% N3 (North China haplotypes) are the most blond and blued eyed people of europe.

In fact more mongoloid input is more blond and coloured eyes, the more closer caucasians are to the original caucasians (middle easterners) the darker they are and the bigger nose they have!

So people are mixing up a lot of things, Europeans are just a mix of middle easterners and northern Chinese to speak of, the southern europeans are more closer to the original caucasians, the middle easterners, than let’s say the swedes who have more mongloid input put are blonder and more multi coloured eyed.
You fail to see the link that people with R1a and R1b are more blonder than the people of southern europe with their arab J2 and e3b genes?!
Don’t believe me?! just tell your prof about this and let them read it, yes.

What a fucking mistake it was for northern Chinese to walk to europe in paleolithic times, I rather prefer the mutation to have stayed in China, because then europeans of today would looked like middle easterners, without the paleness and multicoloured hair and eyes. I would have prefer that that all europeans would rather look like the arabs.

Europeans as lightened up arabs, maybe it was better that R1a, R1b and N3 stayed in China, what a fucking mistake it is. We would not have the whining assholes complaining about this and that, their useless colonies, maybe it would have been better that europe is just an extension of middle east.


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 06 May 2011 16:30 | #

So the peope who brought indo-european languages into europe came from the middle east, the area we now called northern iraq, northern syria and anatolia.
indo european languages is an ancient language from the middle east, introduced into europe by the ancient farmers who also introduced crops like wheat and animals like sheep and goats into Europe.


The haplogroup of the indo europeans is J2. oh yeah we can learn alot of genes. you see the most ancient groups like latin and greeks are people who are predominatly J2.
Aryans who looked like the iraqi “insurgents” narrow skull, dark brown hair, curly, lot of facial hair and body hair and a big noose with high noosebridge. ( bigger noosed people like greeks are more closer to the original caucasians of the middle east).

You see, the more body hair you have like on your chest or your back, the more male middle easterner ancestry you have. Just like the bigger your nose the more middle easterner descent you have. I mean something like Charles de Gaulle nose, I am sure he had an middle easterner haplotype like J2 or e3b or I1.

More original aryan or middle easter ancestry mean:

more body and facial hair (men)
curly hair
bigger noose bridge

for females it means

that they have bigger tits if they have more original middle easterners descent. Just look at it: soouthern european women have much bigger tits than northern european women and they cannot help it because our Chinese women have the same small breast as nordic women. The southern european women have the same large breasts as middle easterner women.


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 06 May 2011 17:01 | #

And middle easterner women as southern european women have bigger asses! A bit like black big momma. Big breasts and big tits. some of them have the body of black women.

It could be that middle easterner women have fairly amount of black genes and pass it on to southern european women.

It is possible to just look at people’s faces and body to tell where their ancestors came from.


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 06 May 2011 18:08 | #

Bigger asses and bigger tits, the body of black woman, sometimes some middle easterner and southern european women look like version of big momma.

I just want to research into this deeper, I think it seems that a fairly amount of white women have black bodies, it would be interesting to see if I am right and see if they have african haplotype. I think the amount of middle easterners haplotypes are underreported in countries like spain and portugal ( I think they lie about it, I don’t believe that R1b could be bigger than J2 and E3b, in reality the amount of J2 and E3b is substantally larger than R1b in spain, just look at spaniards, it should be very compatible with north africans and lebanese) Could’t be true of course the coalescence age of R1b in Europe is the youngest, 3000 years compared to 15000 years in China. So R1b arrived as one of the latest in spain so it cannot be bigger than the haplotypes who were already there like those middle eastern haplotypes J2 and e3b.

I think a lot is underreported or false in genetic reports about europeans, the wikipedia website is written by retards.

but going back to the big butted and big boobed women, I am sure genetics has its part, you can argue that they eat too much and dine too often at mac.
I think their body is something genetic just like the size of breasts is genetic: more middle easterner genes is bigger boobs for the women, just like all arab women seem to have big boobs like african women, I think there is a link here.

The nordic women have smaller breasts due to their bigger mongoloid heritage, but are blonder and blue eyed, comapred to southern european women. So dark haired big boobies or blond small tits.
It’s a trade off I think. Big breasted blonds are probably not real blonds.


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Posted by C.M. on Sat, 07 May 2011 12:28 | #

If the west wants to find a counter balance to China, they must find another contender as india is no match in the first place, it never was.

I tell you what we do with competitors! Do not try to compete with China for resources, land because we still remember the days that the west tried to wreck China, those countries should be very careful now for nothing is forgiven nor forgotten.


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Posted by C.M. on Sat, 07 May 2011 12:53 | #

In my opinion people in west are foolish people because they think that everything is about money and bribes and cheating to get more money. That’s why sollicitors or lawyers are amking big money in western societies. Lawyers are also overrepresented in western governments. If you look at the american congress, or house, the amount of lawyers is staggering. I hold lawyers in very low esteem but of course in west, it is different. Maybe lawyers are better liars when they address their own people when they are holding office, so maybe that’s why so many western politicans were lawyers.

The western countries also have an entrenched class of certain group of people who hold power behind the scene, and it always have been that way.


Now how should we regard western countries with their fake democracies? Do you really think that being on good terms with people in Chinese government will help you? What kind of government do you think will follow after the communists? Are you really so stupid to think that the people whom you bribed can help you? Do you think that it will be allowed that the revolution of chairman Mao would be betrayed?! Of course not, there may be greedy corrupt officials but they will not be able to change anything in your favour.

We Chinese are proud to be Chinese and we will take care of those who think that they can change China.


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Posted by TheAryanInsideOfMe on Tue, 07 Jun 2011 01:52 | #

@Tao is a Legend, actually not Manjul Bhargava’s IQ is likely higher than the lame slave Terence Tao. Manjul Bhargava is nearly the same age as Terence Tao (1 year apart) and Bhargava performed FLAWLESSLY with Princeton Generals, where as the robotic Chinese Tao stumbled and nearly failed with Princeton Generals.

Bhargava is the 2nd youngest full Professor at Princeton where as Tao had to go to UCLA (LOL).

Princeton generals are known for being very very tough and Bhargava handled all of them flawlessly and even challenged them to ask him any question. Facing Princeton generals is much much harder than winning an IMO Gold medal, so Princeton general are a good test of intelligence. Most mind’s cannot handle Princeton generals and often get lost and confused in the process where as Bhargava’s performance was flawless.

So Bhargava’s IQ is likely much higher than Tao’s, probably around 200 or higher, but neither Tao nor Bhargava’s adult IQ have ever been measured. Childhood IQs are always inaccurate and inflated.

Bhargava’s contributions are nearly all things he did independently and display high originality where as nearly all of Tao’s contributions are things done with whites. This is because the Chinese cannot contribute anything without the help of whites.

As usual WHENEVER the Chinese contribute it’s always something requiring little to no originality and it’s always with the help of whites, LOL.

Tao’s is not a legend by far, his contributions are not as significant as Bhargava’s. All of Tao’s contributions are simply improvements of things people were already working on very recently.

Bhargava’s contributions on the other hand are very original and display higher intellect than Tao’s contributions. Like Bhargava’s 14 new Gauss composition laws, that was very original because no one had ever touched Gauss composition laws since Gauss published his book in 1801. Even understanding Gauss composition laws by themselves is difficult for most.

Bhargava’s contributions are more significant and find deeper applications.

Chinese should just step back and realize that they’re just less intelligent than Indians, and have no intuition or originality like a robot.


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Posted by TheAryanInsideOfMe on Tue, 07 Jun 2011 02:12 | #

East Asians and Whites obviously have less geniuses than Indians despite having higher literate populations, are obviously less intelligent on average and on a whole than Indians. This is shown by the 2009 Richwine immigration IQ study with Indian IQ at 112, higher than the Jew, European, and East Asian.

The majority of immigrants in the US are dark-skinnned, non-brahmin, and non-selected. Richwine’s study is the most extensive done and the most accurate.

India is not nearly as developed as China, and Indians haven’t won nearly as much contests as China right? So how can India produce more mathematical talent than China?

What someone personally considers to be original and intuitive is subjective, but contributions are completely objective.

Contributions are a completely objective way to measure what someone can do beyond learning and copying, so the only conclusion is that the Chinese brain is just like a robot, everything ends after learning and copying. This is why the Chinese contribute so very little despite having the highest literate population size.

India has even begun to unleash it’s potential and Indians already contribute more than the Chinese.

The Chinese should just face the undeniable fact that they’re nothing more than slave robots, all their intellect ends at learning and copying, just like a robot.


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Posted by TheAryanInsideOfMe on Tue, 07 Jun 2011 02:58 | #

Further evidence that Chinese intelligence ends at learning and copying can be shown by the number of contests China has won vs. Chinese contributions.

Belgium IMO Medals: Gold medals: 1. Silver medals: 10. Bronze medals: 46. Honourable mentions: 40.
Belgium Fields Medals: 2

China’s IMO Medals: Gold medals: 113. Silver medals: 26. Bronze medals: 5. Honourable mentions: 0.
China’s Fields Medals: 0

So how can China win so many IMO medals yet not win any Fields Medals? Maybe it’s because Fields Medals are given for contributions, not for answering useless math contest questions. Answering useless math contest questions has to do with learning and copying where as Fields Medals is for contributions.

No one can give any valid explanation for China’s lack of contributions. It’s just like I said Chinese intelligence ends at learning and copying, just like a robot.

India’s Modern Mathematical Talents: Manjul Bhargava, Kannan Soundararajan, Akshay Venkatesh, Kiran Kedlaya

China’s Modern Mathematical Talent: Just Terence Tao

So how can India produce more mathematical talent, despite not winning nearly as many contests? Oh wait, mathematical talent is shown again by contributions not by contests alone.

India is only beginning to release it’s potential and Indians already contribute more than the stink robotic Chinese.


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Posted by TheAryanInsideOfMe on Tue, 07 Jun 2011 04:01 | #

We can already see with 100% certainty that the Chinese are nothing more than robots possessing little to no originality or intuition, with only the ability to learn and copy, not contribute. This is clearly shown by all the evidence.

Indians contribute more, produce more mathematical talent, more talents in Computer Science, etc….despite not winning nearly as many book-style contests as the Chinese.

The type of contests China performs well in are robotic-type contests that have to do with answering book-style questions that hundreds of books cover, contests requiring little to no originality or intuition.

Multiple studies have shown that self-disciple predicts GPA not IQ, meaning self-discipline predicts math exam results, meaning you don’t need a high IQ to succeed in book-style contests results.

Hasn’t China won more robotic-type programming contests than India by far? So why has an Indian, Madhu Sudan won the Nevanlinna Prize (which is like the Nobel Prize in Computer Science) but not any Chinese?

Indians have already won the Nevanlinna Prize, Abel Prize, and will most likely win a Fields Medal in 2014, despite having a much much lower literate population than the Chinese.

Obviously India will FAR surpass China in terms of contributions once India becomes more developed, education improves and becomes more accessible, and the literacy rate rises.

The only way it’s possible for the Chinese to contribute anything is if they get lots of help from whites or if they contribute something that requires very little to no originality.


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Posted by CocaCola on Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:26 | #

I found this link:

http://bhanuprasad.net/myblog/blogs/blog1.php/2010/04/07/my-take-on-india-s-low-iq

Check it out.  Interesting stuff.  Especially this link inside:

http://jinfo.org/


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Posted by raj on Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:19 | #

namastey to all chinese,at the present time may be u r better then us in the fields wat u discuss already but just think like a humanbeing do u hav any idea about wat will happen after all natural resources comletely lost ,i think ur all the achivements become useless, u said about our poverty suppose british and us army conqured ur country, and exploit ur people for next 100 years, do u hav still courage to fight like india did ,do u not fight with eachother if there is only one bread for u and ur bros. behind this condition of india britishers r totally responsible, give us time we will prove, any chinese who thought they r best in sports face any one indian in cricket…
i hav lot more things to tell u but u iq is not that much to know us, if really want to our capability go to rigveda…..
china


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Posted by Melatonin on Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:02 | #

For the fun of it, here is a world map of national IQ scores vs average penis size.  Looks like China beats India, again.  grin

http://www.targetmap.com


http://shanghaiist.com


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Posted by The_Observer on Sat, 23 Jul 2011 16:21 | #

@TheAryanInsideOfMe, @ChinaHasLessGenius, @WhoCaresAboutTheIMO

The IBO, ICO, IGC, IMO, IPHO are all competitions for senior high school students.  Many countries have only sent teams to these competitions in recent years.  The medal winners show potential that won’t be realized for years to come.  Terence Tao, born to parents from Hong Kong, as a younster represented Australia more than once in the IMO and was a medal winner. But more of a sign of his level of attainment than his being awarded a Fields medal in 2006; or his professorship at UCLA; is that there are so many other mathematics researchers who want to tap his analytical skills today.  In the world of academia, that sort of recognition of your peers cannot be bought.


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Posted by Rajandas on Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:13 | #

I’m an Indian and I find the average I.Q given for Indians as reasonable.  The Indian immigrants in North America and Europe do have a higher mean average I.Q because of their educational background and achievement: without an appreciable I.Q one can’t score the right SAT or GRE score to be eligible in the first place to study in western universities and eventually become their citizens.  However, in the Gulf regions the average I.Q for Indians could only be marginally higher than in India because most of them are unskilled or semi-skilled workers.  Having said that, their children with better education do have a ‘flynn effect’ in that they have higher I.Qs. On the whole, I believe, the current Indian I.Q would be slightly higher than 81. let’s say about 85.  With regard to the Northern Far East countries such as China, Japan and Korea having a supposedly very high I.Q of abouit 110, there are many sceptics now.  For instance, the celebrated writer Malcolm Gladwell asserts that the vaunted Chinese I.Qs are not real, in that, the sampling was not done objectively, but in order to get a ‘good leve’ the tests were administered to elite school children (comparable to the English Medium students of India). Malcolm goes on to say in his book “Outliers” that the chinese I.Q only equals that of Indian or the sub-continent average score of 85 or thereabouts.  This shows that there needs to be a total revamp in the study and fresh tests should be given to Far North Easterners; until such a time we should not include them in any race, intelligence related topics.  As far as Indians are concerned, there is a tendency among many especially the upper caste to get too sensitive on this issue of I.Q.  They bring in sanskrit, vedas, ayurveda and some selective inventions to prove they are very intelligent.  There is a difference between what one believes and what one is.  It is time for Indians to come to terms with their I.Q which on an average is about 85.  It’s not very difficult to find it out: see the Nobel Prize winners.  We Indians have fewer than 5 while the Jews have 168, and the whites cumullatively over several hundreds.  The good news is that even with a moderate I.Q of 75 a community can be successful in all aspects of life.  This is more true with us Indians because we have an above average E.Q that makes us one of the most adaptable and successful human beings on planet earth.


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Posted by Seltzer on Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:04 | #

Interesting article. Hilarious comments.
I’m a Jew(Ashkenazi)/Indian(Brahmin) American myself and I’ve worked for an NGO in India for many years.

Vanhanen got it right about the Indians but I doubt the accuracy of his stats as far as far easterners go.
I believe the Japs, Chinese and Koreans attribute their development to their work ethics more than IQ.
I don’t know what kind of sampling method was used to arrive at an average for these nations but I’m of the firm belief that the results are flawed.

I would put the Chinese behind white western/northern Europeans, the Koreans and Japs would score a little higher on an average but they would most definitely be more clustered around the average score where as the white population would have much greater variance on the higher side and not accounting for such spikes, the average would probably drop a few points and still be higher than the Chinese average.

The average Indian is the peasant, the farmer, the construction worker and the cattle rearer. These classes would make up 50-60% of the Indian population and they have one of the lowest IQs in the world.

IQ in India is class dependant with Brahmins and other upper classes scoring similar to a random sample of western Europeans and the Indian tribals at the lowest end having a similar profile as seen with the sub-Saharan African populace.

Good day!


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Posted by Leon Haller on Wed, 27 Jul 2011 09:03 | #

Seltzer sounds about right.


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Posted by truewhite on Sun, 31 Jul 2011 01:17 | #

@Seltzer and Leon Haller: clueless Jews. You’re no whites. There is no stat on Ashkenazi jew iq. The only one reliable is jew 94. really pathetic.


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Posted by arjen on Mon, 01 Aug 2011 18:56 | #

what utter bullshit!!

These iq tests are the results of so called european eugenics, aryan theory etc etc, how superior white man conquered lands, this is not intelligence, first of all

Whites population where classed as barbarian tribes, and have shown such traits, from the slave empires, of rome, britain, france, etc, to the plunder of india, africa, china, etc, to the forced conversion of others, from the dark ages, fro, the church to restricting sceience

these iq tests are built on a western format, they will always show whites to have higher iq, but lets get into history, the basic fundamentals of maths, sceience, were achieved in india and china, its well known that pythagorus studies in india, its well known that greeks would send students into india, the first known evidence for well planned cities are in india, the first evidence for agrilculture is from india not central asia, the oldest civilisatons are india and china, the difference is 300years.

for 300years, both india and chinese development was halted, for india it was two invasions of central asia, by muslims and then christians, via the sea, this absolute genocide and plunder of india, took india into poverty, its destroyed it ancient civilisation, and all this plunder and wealth was then transferred to europe, in america, a land wiped clean of the natives, whites used slavery to create the basic foundation in which white european soceity in america live in today, this free labour, created a country which has never happened before in human history, a slave population ge4neration after genraetion condemned to work and built the foundation in which whites would operate, the plunder of the east, the hijacking of trade roots, all these events which took place in the last 3-400years gave europeans a headstart withthe enrichment of wealth and knowledge form india, and at the same time india went into a deep depression for almost 400years, only know we are rising out of it, as is china.

So whites iq is down to barbarian tactics in conquering wealthy profitable lands under their control, and plunder, this accumlative wealth over400years, has steadily improved the lives of europeans and at the same time directly condemned africa, india, china, americas into poverty.

Thats why today most of the worlds problems stem from european rule and intervention,,

The most intelligent people on earth, are the indian and the chinese, the two oldest cultures on earth,

The indian never morally seeked conversion or lands of others, they where fulfilled, india and china where light years ahead of europe, information went from east to west as did wealth, even the core elements of calculus have now known to be from india, which was taken back to europe by jesuit priests…....

IQ IS Determined by genetics AND MOST importantly enviroment. The europeans have a very basic shallow culture, which is representative of their civilisation, the history of european can be classsed in two parts, the first the enslaving , conquering barbaric chapters, from the days of rome, to british empire, to nazism, and 2nd chapter is one of now, today, where the wealth of those previous events has created a stable productive enviroment for europeans which they have had now for at least 200years, the wealth taken from india and china, aafrica, has now paid dividends, but compare the ancient texts of the asians (indain chinese) with europeans, their is no contest, the east is always and has always been the most intelligent and morally guided land on earth…you just need to look into the firt chapter of europeans to soo the ironic aspects of being labelled intelligent.


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Posted by Dromedary on Mon, 01 Aug 2011 22:48 | #

Lest it be said that only WNs harbor negative feelings towards other groups (or better, groups they consider “other”), indulge in specious historical arguments (or simply lie) and so on, we present you Hindutva.


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Posted by ravi on Wed, 03 Aug 2011 01:33 | #

There are many comments. I read a selection of them.

From what I know and what I can state here is that the Indian government has never officially stated that we are in a competition with any other country in any field - whether it is the economy, the military, culture, sports, or political influence in the world. I understand why it is natural for people to compare India and China. But I think such people are wasting their time. Maybe there is not much going on in their lives.

There is no democracy versus communism, no race to the moon contest here such as the one between Russia and the USA during the Cold War era.

One thing though is clear. India is modernizing. If you visited India 10, 15 or more years ago you’ll be struck by the changes that have taken place. There will be more of the same in the next 10, 15 or more years. India is not doing it because some other country is doing it and it is not doing it to overtake some other country. Modernization is a natural process. And India is going about it in its own way and at its own pace.


199208

Posted by Leon Haller on Mon, 08 Aug 2011 08:23 | #

Psychologists are like stockbrokers and seminarians.
Mostly third-stringers blowing smoke for a
living. These people probably fall in the IQ range 75 to 85.

Very stupid comment. there are many brilliant psychologists.

Someone with an IQ of 75-85 would not be able to get through an accredited doctoral program.


199209

Posted by Genghis on Thu, 11 Aug 2011 06:38 | #

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/horrors/a/eating_babies.htm


199210

Posted by Bart Nijs on Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:16 | #

Hi, I am from Belgium, Europe, and the above comments have convinced me that IQ is strongly influenced by environmental factors. Before I started reading them, my own IQ was about 50 points higher than it is now.


199211

Posted by matt on Thu, 18 Aug 2011 02:35 | #

I do believe certain genes are associated might have an association with men carrying certain haplogroups. If you notice Europe has about 50% R y dna mixed with J2, J1, E3, I2a, I1a, N3, T.  Genetic pools that have males contributing from R or J might be smarter.  However, not research has been done. It doesn’t really matter that muuch.  If you notice most of the male contribution for East Asia comes from O y dna, which is pretty homogenous.


Haplogroup Distribution for India - R1a, R2, J2, O, L, H, very little R1b, Q, F*, E, G
Haplogroup Distribution for Europe(varies in different parts of Europe) - R1a, R1b, I1a, I2a, N3, J2, E3b, T, G
Haplogroup Distribution for East Asia - O (mostly O), N, D


199212

Posted by And_I_care_because? on Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:31 | #

Uhm…lol.
1. I’m an Indian.
2. Most of my classmates(in India) are really smart. But that may probably be because mine is supposedly a very good college.(We have to pay to get into it though…no scholarships or such…)
3. There are a few people in my class from villages. They are here on quotas or something. In the beginning, they had a very hard time understanding English and other subjects. We usually have these tests on ‘Analytical ability’ and they scored the least in the entire class.
But now, after nearly 3 years, their scores(mostly IQ) improved rapidly…hmm…one of them even became the second topper in our class.
I can’t speak for everyone, but I think education does play an important role in the ‘intelligence level’ of a person..o.O
Also, there are so many different languages in India. On what basis do they test?? They can’t ask questions in English since it isn’t our mother tongue. Not all people know Hindi either,so its ruled put as well. Not everyone is educated…so what exactly are they going to ask these kind of people?
And yeah, Chinese are quite smart..I think? Uh…but can’t know anything for sure.(Due to their government and all).
Why is everyone discussing this topic so much anyway??
It all depends on hard-work(or that’s what my dad said at-least…hehe ^^) Its his way of saying me that I’m gonna end up nowhere if I don’t work hard, no matter what my IQ level is(which happens to be 141…mwuahaha..ain’t I smart…*sigh* Just kidding…Actually Im just so lazy that I get terrible ranks(yeah, we have ranks in my stupid, stupid college) >.<
Uhm…yeah, so where was I? Yup, as I was saying(or writing, in this case), as long as we have hard-working citizens excelling in the professions they undertake, we’ve got nothing to worry about(well, other than the corrupt politicians, poverty, external terrorism, in-equitable distribution of property..and…omigosh…I could go on forever…-_-)
*scratches back of the head*
And all of you people talking this way makes me feel so dumb. NOT!
To all my fellow Indians(who are mostly elder to me)——> Jeez people! Suck it up! What are you trying to prove my saying that we have much higher IQ. Does it make a difference? I guess not! *sighs again* Get out of this site and get yourselves educated even more( and that’s exactly what Im gonna do after I complete writing this..gosh..I’m such a hypocrite…). Just stop talking about what our great-great-great-great-great….actually I’ve lost count of how many greats are there….grandfathers have done and start doing something for the nation(I’m hella patriotic, don’t you think?)
To all the other nationals(who are mostly elder to me as well)—-> Well, hello there! Eh…actually, I haven’t got anything to say to you people. Just keep insulting us and doing….uh..well..whatever you were doing..). It actually tends to make us work harder and strive for the better! So, don’t worry…you’re all doing us a favor(just in case you were wondering, that’s how it works on India). xD
Nah, I was kidding! *shows the peace sign*
Hmphhh..anyway, now I better go and study or else my mom’s gonna skin me alive(not really…gah!). We all know how Indian parents can get…o.O *shudders*
Buy-Bye.
Have fun people!(like I even care)
A 16 year-old Indian girl who just about hates the Indian education system and who is also an Engineering/Law aspirant who loathes the subject Chemistry from the bottom of her huge(Yeah…I’m such a kind person, didn’t you know?) heart!
~~~~~Peace~~~~~~
After seeing this post, I kinda started having a love-hate relationship with this world…!And people in general.
Omigosh! I am turning into a Misanthrapologist…xO!
I’m outta here!! xD


199213

Posted by And_I_care_because? on Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:38 | #

I hate this stupid Ipad and this stupid spell-checker!
My typos which turned into entirely different words in my above post…—->
*trying to prove ‘by’ saying…not ‘my’
*that’s how it works ‘in’ India, not ‘on’ India.
Bleuhhh…


199214

Posted by Se7en.Girl on Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:55 | #

Okay people! Accepted! We, Indians are dumb and have very low IQs! Happy?
Just quit the hating and racist stuff, ok?:/ World peace is an absolute necessity right now! We can’t afford a 3rd world war…=_=

@And_I_care_because?
Haha! Cool post! :D
I’m Indian too…and a girl as well…and 18 years…co-incidence much? ;D
By the way, I’m an Engineering student as well!! *Hi-five*
I’m a chemical Engineering student…which stream do you want to take up? Not an IIT aspirant, are u?
Where you from btw? x)
Good night!
Se7en.Girl


199215

Posted by danielj on Fri, 19 Aug 2011 19:36 | #

And I Care is a Southern Californian.


199216

Posted by Lurker on Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:19 | #

I felt my IQ dropping as I read And I Care ‘s comment.


199217

Posted by anon on Sat, 20 Aug 2011 05:00 | #

20 million unemployed and underemployed people in the USA have the lowest IQ of any group anywhere in the world.


199218

Posted by Lurker on Sat, 20 Aug 2011 05:41 | #

Care to elaborate anon?


199219

Posted by Amazed on Sat, 20 Aug 2011 05:42 | #

After all is said and done, this site is really about airing personal prejudices and not about science or even pseudo-science.


199220

Posted by Lurker on Sat, 20 Aug 2011 05:54 | #

Thanks for your pointless contribution there Amazed, a real breathtaking insight.


199221

Posted by anon on Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:10 | #

Posted by Lurker on August 20, 2011, 04:41 AM | #

Care to elaborate anon?

.......................................................................................................................................

America is in terminal decline. 14 million people are out of work. Another six million are in temporary jobs unrelated to their primary skills and experience. How about directing your energies toward studying the IQs of unemployed and underemployed people in America? Maybe you’ll find they possess low IQs in the range 75-85 and that’s why they were let go by their companies. Do not automatically assume people have lost jobs because of the economy. Maybe people who have lost jobs should not have been hired in the first place. In a good economy managers at companies have a tendency to overstaff and build their own little empires. The people who are now unemployed may have gotten in during the time the companies were overstaffing. These people may be low-IQ people which may interest you enough to include them in your future work.


199222

Posted by anon on Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:27 | #

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh3BI4708zS3J35O86


199223

Posted by anon on Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:29 | #

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TmTfudUbl8


199224

Posted by james on Wed, 24 Aug 2011 19:38 | #

People often point to the plethora of Indian workers in advanced positions in America’s IT industry and the UK’s medical fields. The truth is, many Indian immigrants to these countries are pre-selected as from the higher IQ range, and not indicative of either the mean or the average Indian IQ.

  India is also an astonishingly stratified nation, in terms of wealth, religion,ethnicity and caste. There is less stratification in immigrants from India to the UK and the US than in the country’s populace as a whole. The higher caste, urbanised elite provide the lion’s share of immigrants.

  This gives a distorted image of Indians as being of high IQ levels. Compare this to immigration from Mexico to America, where every middle class, lighter skinned urbanised and educated immigrant is probably outnumbered dozens of times over by normal working class Mexicans.

  China’s IQ average is much higher and more consistent than INdia’s, which is why any betting man would bellow with laughter at the mainstream media discussion on how India may soon catch up or even overtake China.

  This will simply never happen. Largely due to the natural iq difference- 106 for China 82 for India. Sure, environmental factors have a role in IQ, but no matter what effort you make, you will never make up a 24 point difference.
  Other factors include huge political and sectarian tensions. Communist political and military organisations hold huge sway in parts of the east of the country. Problems with the HIndu majority and the tens of millions of Muslims will not evaporate any time soon. India borders age old rival Pakistan,and the tensions have gone as far as nuclear stand-offs.
  And finally, they share a border with China!!! There is simply no room for 2 giant, advanced societies and world political behemoths to border one another. Not that INdia could ever approach China’s evolution anyway, but if it did it would inevitably clash with China and come off second best


199225

Posted by TheAryanInsideOfMe on Wed, 24 Aug 2011 19:44 | #

@The_Observer lol I had already debunked the big lie of the Chinese being good mathematicians by destroying the validity of the IMO now you come with a weak argument about it’s only been recent years.

Chinese are good at being math students not mathematicians (they’re two very separate things).

China has been ranking high in the International Math Olympiad since the mid 1980s and has not won EVEN 1 Fields Medal, Abel Prize, or Rolf Nevanlinna Prize. China has already disproven the validity of the IMO contest and some other contests.

The mid 1980s were not just in recent years they were nearly 30 years ago. So why hasn’t anyone from China won the Abel Prize, Rolf Nevanlinna Prize, or Fields Medal?

Tao is not from China he is from Australia, and just as I said his most significant contribution comes with the help of whites (in this case Ben Green). The Green-Tao theorem however is not that significant since Szemerédi’s theorem had already been proven in the 1970s.

Tao is just overrated by the Chinese. I mean there’s probably not even one mathematician in the entire world who would ever place Tao above mathematicians like Galios, John von Neumann, or Grothendieck.

Chinese have always lacked in the contribution department and no one can deny this.

Now let’s look at what India has contributed JUST in recent years since the year 2000:
- Won the Abel Prize (which is closer to the Nobel Prize in mathematics than the Fields Medal)
- Won the Rolf Nevanlinna Prize (equivalent to the Nobel Prize in computing)
- Developed (purely in India) the first published primality-proving algorithm to be simultaneously general, polynomial, deterministic, and unconditional called the AKS Primality test (unlike the unproven Miller-Rabin test)

If robotic type contests were useful it should be IMPOSSIBLE for Indians to be contributing more than the Chinese since the year 2000, shouldn’t it?

I guess China disproves the validity of contests.


199226

Posted by TheAryanInsideOfMe on Wed, 24 Aug 2011 20:35 | #

China has already disproven the validity of multiple contests lol….I mean look how much better China performs in robotic book-style programming contests than India so why was India the one to develop the very first proven primality test and not China? It shouldn’t be possible.

Chinese and East Asians should just stick to getting help from whites to make any contributions or only making contributions that require very little to no originality.

No one has been able to given any valid explanation for China’s lack of contributions.

The only talent coming out of China is how to win a worthless contest.

Now it’s time for me use my Blessed Divine Aryan mind to completely debunk the myth of the validity of the International Math Olympiad:

- IMO country rankings do not correlate to Fields Medals or Fields Medals equivalent (Abel Prize or Nevanlinna Prize), otherwise it should be impossible for France to have 11 Fields Medals and 3 Abel Prizes

- IMO country rankings change dramatically from year to year, further indicating they have much more to do with selection process and pre-college education system of a country rather than mathematical talent

- IMO rules say you must be under the age of 20 with no tertiary education level, further indicating they have much more to do with selection process and pre-college education system of a country rather than mathematical talent

- Only 6 individuals per country participate in the IMO, further indicating they have much more to do with selection process and pre-college education system of a country rather than mathematical talent

- The Chinese who win IMO gold medals in non-Chinese countries still don’t contribute much or anything at all, further indicating that the reason the Chinese don’t contribute is because they are genetically specified to be unable to contribute not because of the education system

- Indians who win IMO medals in non-Indian countries contribute lots, further indicating that India’s IMO rankings are suppressed by a bad selection process and pre-college education system

I already know that the main reason India performs poorly in the IMO is simply because of a bad selection process and pre-college education system, just read things like this http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100212220044AAhScLH

If the IMO rankings were a useful indicator for India specifically it shouldn’t be possible for India to produce more mathematical talent than China.

IMO individual rankings are far more useful than IMO country rankings.

Just look at the contributions made by the Chinese vs. Indians since the year 2000 and it’s no comparison, India wins by a HUGE margin.

The AKS Primality test developed by Indians working in India is far more significant than the Green-Tao theorem proven by Ben Green and Tao working outside of China. The AKS Primality test has infinitely more applications than the Green-Tao theorem which has virtually no applications.

Whites and East Asians should just step back and let India rise up and surpass the entire world.


199227

Posted by TheAryanInsideOfMe on Wed, 24 Aug 2011 23:10 | #

I’ve already thoroughly destroyed what the Chinese have been boasting about - their IMO rankings. The whole point of the IMO is to find mathematical talent which is shown by contributions so China has thoroughly failed.

You will never hear any Chinese boasting about contributions, but only worthless contests. We can see just as I said that the Chinese just don’t have any talent.

Since China performs #1 in most robotic-type contests yet has no significant contributions to show for it we can only conclude that China raises it’s rankings with artificial measures. China must be preparing students for the IMO in high school to artificially raise it’s IMO country ranking.

Most IMO-style questions just require using simple techniques found in books. IMO contest questions don’t even cover anything as advanced as calculus. With around 1-year or so of practicing IMO-style questions it wouldn’t be hard to get an IMO Silver or Gold medal.

For some reason on all the non-book style contests China doesn’t perform well in. I mean there’s no Chinese chess player that’s ever ranked world number one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FIDE_chess_world_number_ones .

I mean if someone like Tao never existed mathematics would remain nearly the same without all of Tao’s contributions. I’m very surprised that Tao even got a Fields Medal. Tao is more celebrated for being a prodigy than for his contributions.

The Green-Tao theorem has virtually no impact on mathematics, like nothing. On the other hand the AKS Primality test changed computer science and mathematics. Bhargava’s new Gauss composition laws also changed mathematics.

We can see that since China has been winning lots of contests since the mid 1980s yet has no significant contributions to show for it that China is basically done and has maxed out all it’s potential. China isn’t really doing anything other than winning contests.

India on the other hand performs much worse than China in contests, has a much lower literate population than China, is much less developed than China yet since the year 2000 has been contributing more.

Chinese should just stick to worshiping white people, boasting about worthless contests and let Indians take everything over.


199228

Posted by matt on Fri, 26 Aug 2011 00:39 | #

China is much more homogenous in terms of haplogroup distribution, so an iq test done on a population in any part of china would be valid.

However, India is a much more complex and diverse society.

Different communities have different proportion of male contribution for certain haplogroups. I believe males carrying certain mutations for R y dna, O y dna and J y dna might be smarter.


PLEASE CHECK THESE LINKS

If you don’t know what HAPLOGROUPS are, google them.  The world is way more diverse than you think. People have migrating everywhere for the last 10,000 years. Greater civilizations usually become a melting pot. You can see that if you look at haplogroup distributions for Italy, Greece, certain parts of Middle East, India.

R Y DNA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)


O Y DNA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O_(Y-DNA)


J Y DNA


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA).PNG


199229

Posted by TheAryanInsideOfMe on Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:23 | #

I’m more looking forward to what would will happen to Vietnam, Thailand, and Nigeria once they become developed.

I don’t really know what’s going on with China and contributions. China has been ranking high in the IMO since 1986 (25 years ago) yet China has no Fields Medals, Abel Prizes, or anything equivalent to show for it. India hasn’t been ranking high in most contests and since the year 2000 already has an Abel Prize, Nevanlinna Prize, and many other contributions that have not yet won major prizes. In 2014 and/or 2018 India will probably win a Fields Medal.

Since India is less developed, India has much more potential than China. The Chinese just can’t contribute much because contributions are directly linked to originality and things far outside of books.

Indians should just focus on developing and improving the living conditions in India to eliminate all the environmental and health factors lowering the IQ in India so that the average IQ in India should be around 102-110.

Indians have lots of super-geniuses like Balamurali Ambati who learned calculus at age 4 (Terence Tao learned calculus at age 7) and set the world record for being the youngest doctor, Vinodhini Vasudevan who set the world record for the youngest to score a perfect on the SAT, Manjul Bhargava who has some form of photographic memory and is the 2nd youngest full professor at Princeton, and many other super-geniuses.

Once India becomes more developed, India will obviously surpass the entire world and retain it’s position as the most advanced civilization just as in the past.

India had the very most advanced civilization for thousands of years, much more advanced than China, only relatively recently has India been surpassed:

- Indus Valley sewage and piping system was only surpassed in the 19th Century
- India had the earliest form of high carbon steel, Wootz steel, which even by today’s standards is considered one of the highest quality forms of steel
- Indian linguistics were the most advanced until the mid-20th century, Panini’s morphological analysis (from the 4th Century BC) is the most advanced prior to the mid-20th century (relatively recently)
- Indian philosophy is the only one that rivals or surpasses Greek philosophy, the logic and concepts in the Indian Buddhist pali canons by itself is enough to rival everything in Greek philosophy
- Indians were the first to develop the concept of sine, versine, earliest sine table, treat zero as a number rather than a placeholder, develop the Chakravala method, develop first general method for finding solutions to Pell’s equation, solutions to Diophantine equations of the second order, develop infinite series for trigonometric functions, mathematical analysis, and more…Indian mathematics were unsurpassed until the time of Newton and Euler

China surpassed India in inventions, but that’s only because China had the culture to build labor-saving devices for at least 2000 years. The majority of Chinese inventions don’t require much intellect at all and many were very inefficient. The mathematical inventions developed by Indians require more intellect than all of China’s inventions. China didn’t even approach anything like a Newcomen steam engine or a piston steam engine even though no knowledge of physics or electromagnetism is required for steam technology. We would’ve expected any civilization that has the culture to build machines for at least 2000 years to come up with at least steam technology. Basically any civilization that has the culture to build machines for 2000 years would’ve been able to come up with as much as China did or more.

As soon as the Arabs and Europeans adopted the culture to build machines they easily surpassed China in inventions. Once you factor in the culture variable of being the only civilization in the entire world with the culture to build machines for 2000 years China’s inventions aren’t that impressive. On the other hand Wootz steel, Indian linguistics, and some mathematical methods developed by Indians are still impressive today.

Since India had Wootz steel, clocks, water wheels, book binding, an advanced sewage system, and had already surpassed China in philosophy, linguistics, and mathematics I’m sure that if India had the culture to build to machines for 2000 years they would’ve easily surpassed China in inventions as well. I mean just imagine the inventions Indians would’ve had if India had the culture to build machines and brahmins and recluses were assigned the task of building machines by Kings. Indians likely achieved even more it’s just that Indians were not good historians so many things disappeared.

All Indians have to do is focus on infrastructure and development then once that happens India will retain it’s position as the most advanced civilization in the world, just as in the past.


199230

Posted by Lurker on Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:40 | #

As soon as the Arabs and Europeans adopted the culture to build machines

Europeans didnt adopt the culture, they developed it, independant of whether anyone else had done it as well.


199231

Posted by anon on Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:47 | #

Intelligence is many different things. It cannot be defined, measured and reduced to a single number. The IQ tests measure specific skill sets. For example, your proficiency in solving verbal, numerical, analytical and visual-spatial problems. If a nation’s population is literate with at least up to a good high school education you can expect the average IQ to be closer to 100 in that country. The idea that national IQ and
national wealth correlate well is not unsound. But it is not always so for many different reasons. For example, China wasn’t even in the game about 30 years ago as a competitor in the global economy. Back then, if you were comparing the national wealth of China to its supposed IQ of 100(assuming it was the same then as it is now), it would not have made any sense at all. Thirty years ago you had a China with a supposed average IQ of 100 and little national wealth.

Greece and Ireland are in serious economic trouble. There does not seem to be any meaningful correlation between their national average IQ and their national wealth.

The word intelligence in Intelligence Quotient is the problem. For one thing, IQ tests do not measure intelligence but skill sets. IQ tests should be renamed GLPT for General Literacy and Proficiency Test. Or called by another suitable name.


199232

Posted by Lurker on Sun, 28 Aug 2011 03:03 | #

Greece and Ireland are not fully in control of their own affairs, the EU being the most obvious problem.

IQ tests should be renamed GLPT for General Literacy and Proficiency Test

Really?


199233

Posted by namae nanka on Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:19 | #

“without an appreciable I.Q one can’t score the right SAT or GRE score to be eligible in the first place to study in western universities and eventually become their citizens.”

GRE maths is childish. The more difficult part is vocabulary, done by rote. Secondly, I would expect english scores to be rated more laxly than for the native or rather white students.

——

“Thirty years ago you had a China with a supposed average IQ of 100 and little national wealth.”

Well, they tripped a bit with their great leap.

“Greece and Ireland are in serious economic trouble. There does not seem to be any meaningful correlation between their national average IQ and their national wealth.”

There isn’t a meaningful correlation between your mom being pregnant once upon a time and your height.

“The word intelligence in Intelligence Quotient is the problem. “

Stones and sticks will break my bones, but words will haunt me forever.

————

“Since India is less developed, India has much more potential than China.”

Or being on roughly similar timelines, today’s difference in their conditions is the effect of that difference in potentials rather than its cause.


199234

Posted by anon on Sun, 28 Aug 2011 17:09 | #

You cannot predict a nation’s economic performance
several decades ahead. But it is not fantasy to
project a GDP of, say, 10 trillion dollars for India
in 30 years or so. It will probably be powered by a
workforce drawn from, let us say, 3 or 4 hundred
million people.

A GDP of 10 trillion dollars for a populaion of
3 or 4 hundred million is not too bad.

So you can have a nation within a nation. A nation
of 3 or 4 hundred million people who are its modern
economic backbone within the larger nation of
1.2 billion or more.

And the average IQ may well remain somewhere in the
80s for a country with a large GDP of 10 trillion
dollars.

Of course this is not what India wants. According to
the govt 90 percent of the children are in school now
and the rate of population growth has slowed down
considerably although it remains above the replacement
level.


199235

Posted by anon on Tue, 30 Aug 2011 15:08 | #

Economically speaking China was a nonentity just
30 years ago. Today it has an economy of 5.5 trillion
dollars roughly the same as that of Japan but China’s
population is about 11 times that of Japan. America’s
GDP is 14.6 trillion.

China has a pervasive counterfeit culture. Probably
tens of millions are engaged in manufacturing
cheap knock-offs and selling them to Chinese
consumers as well as exporting them overseas in
violation of international intllectual property
rights.

China has a literate population and a very large
economically active workforce of more than 750 million.

Chinese manufacuring and economic growth are the
direct result of several decades of transfer of
technologies and manufacturing know-how by American
and other Western corporations to China to set up
manufacturing operations there because of lower costs.

As for India-China competition or rivalry, it is
an exercise for some idle minds with not much to do.
Each country is following its own path. 

It may not be generally known that China adopted
market economy in 1978 and India in 1991. China
has a 13-year headstart. In real terms it is more
than just a 13-year advantage because in China from
the beginning the government has been identifying
specific industries, products and services to go
after and working closely with universities,
entrepreneurs and corporations to provide full
infrastructure and other support as necessary without
bureaucratic delays.


199236

Posted by InferiorAsians on Thu, 01 Sep 2011 04:14 | #

Hahahahahaha funny this two poor 3rd world country are fighting each other ,  very typical crab mentality. Why not you all focus on why your countries has the smallest penis in this world. Or just behave cause your master ( superior white ) might take your poor job .


199237

Posted by anon on Thu, 01 Sep 2011 14:29 | #

This whole business of imaginary India-China rivalry was
first started by Wall Street types: bankers, economists,
financial columnists, investment analysts and advisers
from abroad.

They looked at the growth in GDPs in recent years. The
GDP growth rates for the two countries are comparable.
They also projected an aging population and more and more
seniors and retirees in China and a slowing down of population
growth and an eventual decrease in population there. This they
interpreted as economically unfavorable to China in the
coming decades. Thus based on current GDP growth rates
and projected demographic changes in China they created a
fictitious economic competition between the two countries
out of whole cloth.

Since then more and more people have taken to writing
and commenting about a national rivalry between the two
countries that simply has not and does not exist.


199238

Posted by sampan on Sat, 03 Sep 2011 10:54 | #

who said china had won 7 prizes.for shake of ur binformation-republic of china have won 2 peace prize.hongkong chiana 1 physics prize.and republic of china(taiwan)3 science prize.so the so called chinnese republi of today have won 2 peace prizes who are most hatered by their own goverment.and india have produced the class of sn bose,jc bose,mn saha,ecg sudarshan-who all didnot win(some of them not even nominated)but first 2 of them are 2all time great.also worlds most sophisticates vitro fertilization test tube baby maker subhas mukhopadhya had to commit suicide for abuse within india.2010 nobel prize went to one of the co british scientist for this research.if mukhopadhya would have been alive he should have got it.plus the city of calcutta is directly associated with 5 nobel prize winner and also 3-4 genuine guys whom i have already mentioned(source-wikipedia page nobel prize controversy). so the city calcutta alone is enough to beat whole china.


199239

Posted by anon on Sat, 03 Sep 2011 15:04 | #

@ Posted by sampan on September 03, 2011, 09:54 AM | #

sampan,

Relax, man, keep cool! Don’t bust a blood vessel.

I pointed out in my previous post that this bogus, fabricated
competition between India and China was first started some
years ago by Wall Street types. Ignore it and do not allow
yourself to be drawn into it.

Nobel prizes were established in 1895 and the first prizes were
awarded in 1901.  Read a little history and familiarize yourself
with where your country was in 1895 and what exactly it takes
to win a Nobel prize.  If you are capable of undersanding that
you will not be writing stuff and nonsense as you did in
your post above. 

Further, Nobel prizes these days and achievements of the
ancient past are irrelevant to economic progress a country is
determined to make.

Always ask yourself: what have you done lately?


199240

Posted by Alex on Wed, 07 Sep 2011 16:12 | #

The brain requires a huge amount of energy. If you live in a region where the risk of children suffering from diseases and viruses is higher, it should be expected that as the body diverts its energies to fighting illnesses, it has less to allocate to brain development.

It’s not race that matters, but health.


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Posted by saka on Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:36 | #

I am starting to think certain haplogroups that form a higher proportion of populations might be contributing to intelligence levels. If you look at the brahmins, a high proportion of males seem to be R1a, R2 and J2 y dna. J2 originated in middle east and has been recognized as a marker that gave way to the spread of agriculture from Middle East. I believe males who ultimately became successful farmers were more intelligent, had more resources which women were more attracted to and probably had more children. J2 has a higher concentration in southern india compared to northern india. It is also quite high in askhenazi Jews and people from northern middle east. I am not sure what ethnicities contribute to extremely high intelligence socities. I have always heard there were high percentages of Askhenazi Jews. I believe certain genes that are passed on by men carrying R1, J2, O y dna contribute to intelligence. Lot of research has to be done to figure out what genes are contributing to intelligence, which is just a waste of time as everyone is just looking for an upper hand in this competitive world


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Posted by Trainspotter on Sun, 11 Sep 2011 01:28 | #

Alex: “It’s not race that matters, but health.”

LOL! Yes, I’m sure this explains it.  I marvel how, even in middle class communities of the developed world, disease and epidemics manage to strike down black students but leave white students unscathed, thus accounting for IQ discrepencies. This happens in literally thousands of school districts across the fruited plain, pretty much without exception. 

But wait, there’s more! Then disease manages to hit the middle class white students, while sparing the middle class asians! Wowza!

Amazingly, in thousands of communities all across the developed world, this same strange pattern of disease and malnutrition manages to strike certain groups and spare others, even though we control for income and educational levels of parents.

Interestingly, white children of parents who make less than $10,000 dollars a year outscore on the SAT the children of black parents who make upper middle class incomes.  It’s amazing how disease and malnutrition magically spares the trailer park, stalking the upper income black families instead!!!

The lengths you race denying cultists will go to deny reality, well, it’s actually impressive.  You take something that has a degree of truth - if Akbar is constantly malnourished or starving, then yeah that’s not going to do much for his brain development or performance on IQ tests - and then you use this to obfuscate a broader and more deeply fundamental truth, namely that the races are indeed different. 

So tell me Alex, who is nuttier?  The crazed religious zealot who believes things that cannot be proven one way or the other, or the race denying cultist who just as fervently believes things that are demonstrably, provably untrue? 

In the crazy department, you guys beat the religious zealots hands down.  But fortunately, I’m here to help you.  What you need is a quite moment of introspection and reflection.  In this moment of Zen, you might question the motives of the people who fill you with such nonsense, not to mention your own motives for then spreading it. 

But nah, that would be too hard.  Back to the cult!


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 16 Sep 2011 14:37 | #

To fully understand the scope of Chinese inventions, that even have impact today one only has to read a book like: Robert Temple, Joseph Needham, “The Genius of China: 3,000 Years of Science, Discovery, and Invention”

It’s a myth that Chinese cannot innovate: most things that are useful were invented by Chinese, even the things that people take for granted like paper money, or well drilling (ancient Chinese were drilling about 2km into the earth to extract salt with bamboo poles) so useful to extract oil today. Just a few example to mention, there are alot more of course, the use of negative numbers in math, navigation with compass, gunpowder etc. etc. too much to mention. Basically everything we have today are just modern versions of ancient Chinese inventions.

It’s of course bullshit to say that China has no mathematical talents, I mean who the fuck cares who get appointed as prof at Princeton, does princeton mark a achievement? Most degrees are “bought” in america anyway, as long they pay their college fee they will graduate, even Bush has degree from Stanford! University is for the rich not for the smart in america.

I mean like all prizes and appointments, it’s useless. Fuck the field medals of whatever prize, it’s not important.
It’s just as irrelevant to me as “foreign relations” (I wouldn’t give a fuck about what other countries/people think as long as I make China stronger) I mean even if America succeeded in bribing some Chinese politicians, it wouldn’t make any difference. We focus on making China stronger and these traitors will be shot/hanged anyway if we have a situation with the americans.


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:00 | #

The best way of running a country is a kind of military commission: it’s the only way to guarantee a traitor free government, then of course the commission should consist of highly nationalistic officers who are more fond of war than money. Money is not important, in war you can take what you want, so there is no need for trade. Taking whole nations and their resources.

Instead of piling up useless american bonds or other crap they call “wealth”, let the losers of WWII supply the americans with hondas and mercedesand pay tribute, we are Chinese, undefeated Chinese so we have no obligations whatsoever to improve american living standards with cheap electronics or clothes. America neither defeated us nor liberated us.
let the rest of the world pay tribute, we are Chinese which will set us apart from the rest of the colonized or ex colonized monkeys who are craving for their former master attention, like the useless monkeys in south east asia. I don’t take pride in talking english.

I don’t want foreign tourists in China, in fact I don’t even want foreign cars in China, let alone so called “foreign talents”, those who return from america might be traitors. I have read so many books written by foreigners or Chinese traitors that everything is clear to me: america is the source of mishaps of China, the sooner we face them in war the better.

All these bullshit advices they offer in these books, of all the crap things we should do: China must do this, China must do that, while they exempt themselves.

The Chinese politicians/traitors better think about doing the right things first: For Chinese only, only for the Chinese nation, nothing else.


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:30 | #

China should not go the way as the losers of WWII, being a nation of export, the losers might be great economies but they are also slaves of their american masters, what choice did they have other than to become nations of exporters (to america)?! they were defeated and occupied by the americans, big deal that they have large GDP, these countries are american lackeys, they have american bases on their soil and they cannot object to that.

I am so glad I am Chinese, rich loser of WWII or poor independent, I would choose the latter.
China should not go this way, and I will explain why with examples.

South Korea: success story of the east with large enterprises, again this is a small country with a small internal market, so they have no other choice than to look for overseas markets, but China has huge internal market, we sholdn’t be exporters like the south korean, because the south koreans have no choice. the japanese are a small island with no resources at all, they too are forced to trade, and of course after their defeat. But China is different, we have a huge market and we have huge resources too.
I don’t know exactly what average income per year the japanese have, but their lifestyle is hugely inferior to the lifestyle of Chinese middle income. (because everything is so much cheaper in China).

It’ folly to compare China to germany or japan, germany and japan are losers! They have no choice.

China must not get into this trap of voluntarily tying our hands like the germans and japanese. All these talk about that we “need the americans” is bullshit! Why the fuck are we financing west, so they buy from us, this whole idea of trade is useless, but maybe somebody can explain to me the advantqages of foreign trade.

Fuck foreign trade and relations, it’s irrelevant. What we should do are the things we need to do, like sinking aircarft carriers, intervene in foreign lands, set up Chinese bases.

All the other stuff is bullshit and work of traitors, having a cozy relationship with americans is treason.


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 16 Sep 2011 17:44 | #

Fuck trade! Why should Chinese peasants finance western consumers, getting bad money back instead, paper notes worth nothinig. I don’t care how they call it, what point is it in having a 2 trillion of foreign reserves, what good is that for China?! It fucking get recycled in american bonds which yields no return at all.

Only fools think it will benefit China, all this crap about “soft power” ( I don’t believe in soft power only hard military power), chairman Mao is right: america is a paper tiger and they are good for nothing, except leeching off other countries.


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 16 Sep 2011 17:56 | #

Let the european slaves finance the living style of their american masters, since america keeps reminding them that america liberated them.

fuck trade with the europeans too!
financing european lifestyle with Chinese money is treason! What good is it to buy fucking useless european bonds from bankrupt european countries?!

well fuck it! With Chinese money the PLA must be enforced, the american try to trick us into being wimps while they spend more and more money to arms. I say let’s follow suit and it will not be China that will be bankrupt in the arms race.

First they build 50 arleigh burke class DDG, or ten per year in a period while there was no need for that, the soviet union didn’t exist anymore. Then they say to China: “look we have not build any destroyers the last ten years!” Yeah I say China should also build 50 destroyers first and then say: look we have not build any navy ship lately.

we should match them ship for ship, nuke for nuke, sub for sub. They have no need of 12 aircraft carriers, but they built them.

Only fools will walk into the trap, america wants to make wimps out of the current generation of Chinese, but the americans were never friendly to us, never, it was a fucking mistake to have diplomatic relations with america. these people are not our friends, they are scum and enemies!
and europeans will take side of america which will make them enemies of China too. But of course there are plenty of nukes.


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Posted by C.M. on Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:08 | #

real power is hard military power, nuke boats, nuke missiles, destroyers.

“Soft power” is bullshit and anybody uttering these words is a fool.

America steals resources from the whole world, the price is just the cost of printing paper dollars, and they tell us how to behave?!
who’s waging war all the time? But I tend to think that those wars benefitted america, I say China must follow suite with warmaking. It really pays off.

China must wage wars too and emulate american behaviour, it works.


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Posted by C.M. on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 12:29 | #

europeans are the shy slaves of americans, of course it could be that they voluntarily choose to follow the americans because they feel that they owe the americans. I am pretty convinced though that they just don’t feel the contempt of the americans for the “old europeans”, in the words of Bush to speak of.

Think about it, most white americans (75%) are descendant from poor italians, greeks, spaniards etc. the poorerst people in europe at the time when they migrated to america. They don’t feel any connection to old world as they see it. Sure they talk english, but it’s not because they descended from brits, it’s because italians started to learn english. The majority of white americans are overwhelmingly descended from southern europeans, that’s what PLA said if genetic composition of whites in america. I am pretty sure the americans know it themselves without Chinese army geneticists telling them.
Actually not surprising, but it is funny.

We know everything: the genetic composition of our neighbours, what kind of planes they flying, what they think, we know everything.
our indian neighbours are actually the ancestors or better sat the modern cousins of australian aboriginals! the japanese male Y genome contain filipino or indonesian ( the puny skinny gene) traces, does not surprise me, just look at japanese males, some of them look like south east asians. Just compare the Chinese male swimmers with the male japanese swimmers, the Chinese are taller and better built.

of course the hindus are lying about their genetic composition, but that does not surprise me, with their white worship attitude, they are truly a race apart, they are middle easterners and australian aboriginal mix. There is no R1b in india, there is no N3 in india, there is no Q in india. The R1a, small number, that may exist came from the mughal (mongols) a couple of hundred years ago. there is however J2 that clearly show that some of them migrated from iran 1200 bc.
the language link is because the ancient indo european speakers came from anatolia (middle east) 8000 years ago with the spread of farming, and the people from the area of iran invaded india 1200 bc, that’s where the link is.


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Posted by C.M. on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 12:42 | #

To Matt you are wrong, but you are a hindu of course.

Haplogroup Distribution for India - R1a, R2, J2, O, L, H, very little R1b, Q, F*, E, G
Haplogroup Distribution for Europe(varies in different parts of Europe) - R1a, R1b, I1a, I2a, N3, J2, E3b, T, G
Haplogroup Distribution for East Asia - O (mostly O), N, D

There is no native R1b, nor Q, in india and foreign tourists are not indian cititzens.

East Asia is wrong to speak of. Here for China.

Chinese Male: O about 50%, N3 12.5%, R1a 10%, R1b 10%, further D and J accounting for rest.


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Posted by C.M. on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 12:50 | #

“Haplogroup Distribution for India - R1a, R2, J2, O, L, H, very little R1b, Q, F*, E, G
Haplogroup Distribution for Europe(varies in different parts of Europe) - R1a, R1b, I1a, I2a, N3, J2, E3b, T, G
Haplogroup Distribution for East Asia - O (mostly O), N, D “

It could be that this Matt guy copied it from internet, but it’s as reliable as the wikipedia bullshit.

indo-european speech is from the area of anatolia, 8000 years ago this was a centre of farming, which spreaded into europe. indo-europeans were not from steppes of russia, they look as the people of today armenia and turkey, they were not blond nor blue eyed. they looked as middle easterners.

the gene of blond hair and blue eyes are not from middle easterners, I mean the mutation does not originate from middle easterners.


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Posted by anon / uh on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 13:27 | #

indo-european speech is from the area of anatolia, 8000 years ago this was a centre of farming, which spreaded into europe. indo-europeans were not from steppes of russia, they look as the people of today armenia and turkey, they were not blond nor blue eyed. they looked as middle easterners.

Is there a point to your disinformation, or do you just annoy robbing white people of a significant part of their heritage like every other street-corner blabbermouth?


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Posted by Gudmund on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 18:04 | #

indo-european speech is from the area of anatolia, 8000 years ago this was a centre of farming, which spreaded into europe. indo-europeans were not from steppes of russia, they look as the people of today armenia and turkey, they were not blond nor blue eyed. they looked as middle easterners.

The Anatolian Hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis, which has never been conclusively established.  Furthermore, it concerns the fact that a certain branch of the R haplotype dispersed into Europe via Anatolia.  It says nothing about those people having a Near Eastern phenotype, nor should it because any such claim would be completely speculative and not based on evidence (unlike the genetic record, which is the basis for the hypothesis).  Incidentally, Near Eastern phenotypes tend to be associated with areas where Haplotypes E, G, and J are in high concentration, not R.

Fail.


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Posted by wtf j. c. on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 18:42 | #

The Anatolian Hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis, which has never been conclusively established.  Furthermore, it concerns the fact that a certain branch of the R haplotype dispersed into Europe via Anatolia.  It says nothing about those people having a Near Eastern phenotype, nor should it because any such claim would be completely speculative and not based on evidence (unlike the genetic record, which is the basis for the hypothesis).  Incidentally, Near Eastern phenotypes tend to be associated with areas where Haplotypes E, G, and J are in high concentration, not R.

That’s a pretty stupid comment for a myriad of reasons. No, really, I’m not sure where to begin and where to end but I shouldn’t expect much from someone who doesn’t know the difference between haplotype and haplogroup and confuses a linguistic hypothesis with genetic hypotheses, in the first place. Btw, fair features (which is what this “phenotype” discussion is all about really) quite likely developed in the neolithic or post-neolithic period (and wouldn’t have been as ubiquitous as they are in certain areas today, in the beginning) so there you go.

Is there a point to your disinformation, or do you just annoy robbing white people of a significant part of their heritage like every other street-corner blabbermouth?

He is a looney toon but his putting forward one theory about the IE urheimat robs “white people” of their heritage in what way?


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Posted by anon / uh on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:17 | #

He is a looney toon but his putting forward one theory about the IE urheimat robs “white people” of their heritage in what way?

a) In precisely the same fashion as putting white people in alarm quotes. Either there was an ethnosphere of carriers of the R1a mutation and who eventually came to refer to themselves as “Aryans”, or there was not; either this was inside what is today Europe, or it was not, despite the best efforts of some crypto-egalitarians to introduce literal “fuzzy borders” into the paleohistoric model (an ethnic “continuum”).
b) This theory has been repeatedly disproved by highly qualified scholars in every pertinent field — from archaeology to paleo-zoology; it’s popularity stems from political motive, originally to claim the Indo-Europeans for the Soviet sphere of influence (Gamkrelidze & Ivanov using slipshod etymology), latterly to deny them a place in Europe (Renfrew, Elst, et al.); the unspoken logic here is that if the Aryans had their start in Europe, Europeans will one day come alive to their remotest heritage and become naziswhowanttokillsixmillionjews.

I don’t know to which race this C.M. belongs, but you can be sure he is extra-European, because only two kinds of people bring so much vehemence to denying a European urheimat: Asians, and leftists like Elst. The entire Indo-European scholarly community within Europe and America, including most mainstream Indian and Asian experts, are behind the Ukraine refugium / steppe model. This includes many brilliant men like J.P. Mallory, David Anthony, and above all Michael Witzel.

There is no longer any debate here. Well, there is, in the way there is still a debate between creationists and evolutionists. For that matter a woman told me not long ago that one maggot spawns thousands of flies. There are different levels of understanding among people, and C.M., despite some ideas with which I agree, relies on others that are laughably false — that “most white americans” are descended from Italians, Greeks and Spaniards for example. Spanish immigration to America was one of the sparest of all European nationalities. But I won’t waste time taking apart that stupidity. I’ve exhausted myself battling “Anatolians”, who are secure in their solution merely by virtue of having not read the “Ukrainians”.


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Posted by anon / uh on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:23 | #

A last point to consider: Even Razib Khan and Dienekes (two wogs that is) support the Ukrainian model. These are legendary eggheads with a grasp of genetics that soars above all of our heads, including this C.M.

Who you gonna believe?


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Posted by Gudmund on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:15 | #

That’s a pretty stupid comment for a myriad of reasons.  No, really, I’m not sure where to begin and where to end but I shouldn’t expect much from someone who doesn’t know the difference between haplotype and haplogroup

Yes, haplogroup is the correct term, and I’m not a genetics specialist so I can be forgiven for occasionally making mistakes.  Nevertheless, none of what I said regarding those haplogroups and their distribution is untrue, nor did you refute it.

and confuses a linguistic hypothesis with genetic hypotheses, in the first place.

No, I did not confuse it, as the two are linked and there has been genetic research which supported the hypothesis only recently.  It was less convincing before there was any real evidence for a migration out of Anatolia.  I’m afraid you really don’t have as much of a bone to pick as you think.

Btw, fair features (which is what this “phenotype” discussion is all about really) quite likely developed in the neolithic or post-neolithic period (and wouldn’t have been as ubiquitous as they are in certain areas today, in the beginning) so there you go.

Yes, there is evidence that blue eyes originated in the Neolithic but to my knowledge no similar data has been compiled on blond hair or light skin pigmentation.  The point here is that the scientific record is not adequate on these questions and your speculations need more evidence to be convincing.


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Posted by j.c. wtf on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:17 | #

C.M. has said he’s Chinese. I don’t see a particular reason to disbelieve his claim, considering he is or presents himself as an anti-European sinophile.

You don’t need to familiarize me with the details of IE - some of which you interpret in an eccentric or at least lopsided fashion due to your worldview (e.g. pro-European urheimat arguments have been the worst offenders regarding unscientific arguments in the past, e.g. Colin Renfrew who has studied some of the earliest European cultures is somehow “anti-European” even though his argument stems from his archaeological interpretation about continuity in Europe). There are still unsolved problems with all urheimats. Based on my readings, I too think the steppe model more likely (or at least a combination of neolithic + steppe for both west and east) but it’s not a settled question in the sense that, say, IE linguistic unity is, by any means.

Either there was an ethnosphere of carriers of the R1a mutation and who eventually came to refer to themselves as “Aryans”, or there was not; either this was inside what is today Europe, or it was not, despite the best efforts of some crypto-egalitarians to introduce literal “fuzzy borders” into the paleohistoric model (an ethnic “continuum”).

Question time: What is “Europe” today? The area up to the Don, the area up to the Urals? The Russian steppe is good to go but Anatolia is a region so far removed from us that we might as well not acknowledge it (nevermind that even the Turks -culturally alien Muslims, sure- have less East Asian input today than some Russians do)? How do you know which Y-DNA haplogroup was dominant in the steppes back then and why do you present it as part of your “either or” argument? Are you extrapolating from the situation that exists today, after all those Iranians moved East, Turks moved East then Russians moved West across what was a thinly-populated region? I’m not even sure why you mentioned the purported dominant haplogroup of those people, in the first place. It says nothing about their autosomal genetics or their influence on the settled, agricultural populations. Perhaps it’s just an argument of the “sometime in the past, there existed a grand white people who gave us most of our languages” sort. I guess I don’t really see the attraction in that.

In precisely the same fashion as putting white people in alarm quotes

It’s a phrase that means very different things to different people, that’s why I put it in quotes (please don’t make the argument that I could say that about any ethnic grouping). Some think white = Caucasoid, some think white = European (as a term seems to have its own problems), some think white = NW Europe. I wasn’t denying your existence. :-(

Even Razib Khan and Dienekes (two wogs that is) support the Ukrainian model

Dienekes, if anything, is pro-Anatolian. I don’t know about Razib but he seems to support a steppe model for at least the Indo-Iranians. What’s a wog btw?


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Posted by j.c. wtf on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:18 | #

Nevertheless, none of what I said regarding those haplogroups and their distribution is untrue, nor did you refute it.

No, it’s not untrue *entirely* but it’s ridiculous on so many levels that I won’t spend time refuting it. grin


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Posted by Gudmund on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:33 | #

No, it’s not untrue *entirely* but it’s ridiculous on so many levels that I won’t spend time refuting it.

IOW, “I have no argument with you anymore.”

To clarify, what I’m saying is that populations with high incidence of haplogroup R are generally associated with European appearances or in some cases Eurasian appearances as it also appears in Central Asia, Siberia, etc, and that populations with high incidence of haplogroup E, J and G are generally associated with Near Eastern appearances.  Judging from the available evidence, this is not a far-fetched claim. 

I don’t really know what the argument would be here?  How is it ridiculous to generalize about this?  I’d be interested to know what you think is wrong.


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Posted by anon / uh on Sat, 17 Sep 2011 23:26 | #

(e.g. pro-European urheimat arguments have been the worst offenders regarding unscientific arguments in the past, e.g. Colin Renfrew who has studied some of the earliest European cultures is somehow “anti-European” even though his argument stems from his archaeological interpretation about continuity in Europe)

Yes, he is concerned to demonstrate the continuity of “Near Eastern farmers” from Anatolia in Europe. Fine. He can have that. What he and every other proponent of his theory has failed to prove is that these people were “speakers of Proto-Indo-European”. What can I say? He ought to have studied the Hittites better than he did. Besides, as far as I know he has never published a follow-up of any sort defending his Aryans-are-from-Turkey story. Maybe, just maybe, it’s because he can’t rework the evidence to fit that frame anymore.

Indeed, when he published that book, the place of Hittite and the Anatolian group had not been fully explored. Isaac Taylor and a handful of others had arrived at the steppe more than a hundred years ago; it’s all in Google Books. But then comes the revelation that Hittite is IE and an anti-white scumbag like Renfrew, and the Gamkrelidze team in Russia, sees them as the vehicle of both agriculture *and* Aryan culture. Well, the picture has been revised since then. Simple as that. There’s an archaeology of IE scholarship itself that must also be taken into account.

There are still unsolved problems with all urheimats.

This seems to be more of a mantra for pussyfooting scholars than even a half-truth. I see all sorts of evidence in favor of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. I wasn’t swayed by Gamkrelidze’s 900 pages of pure reaching, on the other hand.

Based on my readings, I too think the steppe model more likely (or at least a combination of neolithic + steppe for both west and east)

Then we are in total agreement.


How do you know which Y-DNA haplogroup was dominant in the steppes back then and why do you present it as part of your “either or” argument?

I’m sorry, have you not read anything by Cavalli-Sforza? I thought all this was settled more than a decade ago. How long shall we spin on this hamster-wheel? Either the west-east swathe cut through the continent by this Y-DNA marker tallies with Aryan migration or it doesn’t. C.M. says Mongolians are responsible for it; which means the Vikings were closer to the Mongols than the Aryans. You see, it really is either/or, without your square quotes. Despite the reluctance of the scholars to draw sharp lines, their findings all tend in that direction.


Perhaps it’s just an argument of the “sometime in the past, there existed a grand white people who gave us most of our languages” sort.

I doubt they were grand in the sense of numerically preponderant. That ought to be uncontroversial enough for you. But yea, they certainly did “aryanize” much of the Continent, just as the Altaics did in the east. What’s the problem?

Dienekes, if anything, is pro-Anatolian. I don’t know about Razib but he seems to support a steppe model for at least the Indo-Iranians. What’s a wog btw?

A n*gger, by extension any non-white.

I wasn’t denying your existence. :-(

Well, I’m 100% West Euro, and half Italian to boot (lolzlolzlolz), so I have no genetic stake in the Aryan question at all. I think you’d just absorbed too much of the scholarly method to understand where I’m coming from. People like you won’t satisfied until we find a six foot tall mummy with blond hair from 3,000 BC with a stone age passport issued at Dniepropetrovsk.

 

Gudmund,

I don’t really know what the argument would be here?  How is it ridiculous to generalize about this?  I’d be interested to know what you think is wrong.

You know damn well what the argument is: they don’t like the central urheimat hypothesis because they’re basically anti-white and this comes too close to an assertion of deep identity for white people, which is *dangerous*. Aryans are *scary*. They oppressed people so their existence should be systematically denied. So it must be that those Tocharians out past Lake Baikal, wearing clothing that would have almost been at home in Donegal, had more in common with the muds overrunning Germany than the Boii of Halstatt. Ok! Aryans didn’t exist. R1a is a mythtery for all time. Nothing is certain. It’s all up in the air. Everything is relative! White is different things to different people. Into scare quotes we go!


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Posted by Silver on Sun, 18 Sep 2011 00:53 | #

A n*gger, by extension any non-white.

I don’t think Americans are very familiar with the various ways “wog” is used.  The Brits seem to use it the way you think, but I’m pretty sure even there it doesn’t refer to any non-white.  (Nigerians and Koreans both “wogs”?  Hard to believe.)

But that’s certainly not the way it’s used in Australia.  Here it almost always refers to southern and southeastern Europeans, as well as Turks and Levantines, ie the earliest non-NWE immigrant arrivals, who were granted permission to immigrate under the auspices of the “White Australia policy”—awry racial reasoning on the part of the authorities or not, that’s how it happened—and its use as such is jealously guarded by those groups.  I think you’d be surprised just how white some people who use “wog” to refer to themselves here are (and virtually all wogs use it to refer to themselves, typically with pride).  I have an uncle who looks like a slavicized version of Rutger Hauer (ie pretty bloody white); he’d automatically assume he and/or his group were being referred to by the use of “wog” or “the wogs.” 

As an example of how it can be used in conversation, just last night I was talking to a girl who was pouting about the rude manner in which some Indian tried to pick her up.  She was a “eurodarkie” like me (European facial contours, “dark” skin) and I used the Indian story as an opportunity to inquire about her background.  “I’m from [city],” she said.  No, I mean, what background are you?  You’re some wog, obviously, I said.  She said actually she wasn’t, that her mother was, in her words, “English…you know what I mean” [what she meant is her mother is “Australian,” but they cant’ say that anymore since so many people call themselves “Australian” these days that it’s lost all utility as an ethnic identifier, much like “American” has], and her father part-English, part-German.  And nothing else? I asked.  “Nope.  But people just think I’m Italian,” she said.  “But it’s okay if people think I’m Italian. It’s better than thinking I’m Indian—oops, it’s bad to say that.”  [In reality there must have been some nigger in the woodpile there at some point, else she’s adopted, because her appearance was ridiculously non-nordish for someone of the claimed backgrounds.]

Anyway, dayum, I had no idea you were this passionate about the Urheimat debate.  Kurgan Pride World Wide! Lol.


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Posted by wtf j.c. on Sun, 18 Sep 2011 01:30 | #

What he and every other proponent of his theory has failed to prove is that these people were “speakers of Proto-Indo-European”.

And every proponent of every other theory…There’s no need to get into the concept of “proof” here and despite adhering to a steppe origin (see? I’m not anti-“white”, I love them riders), I can’t admit that it’s been “proved” to a certain satisfaction as far as I am concerned.

Maybe, just maybe, it’s because he can’t rework the evidence to fit that frame anymore.

He seems to have. He has reworked his theory on some matters but you’re the one who should be telling me this.

an anti-white scumbag like Renfrew

I dunno, you seem more like an anti-white scumbag with your hard-on for pre-Scythians (the name is monstrous yet it caresses your ear?). At least Renfrew was initially concerned with those nice people, ancestral to the first civilizations in Europe, who created those lovely statuettes at the Cyclades and he went from there. Right?

I thought all this was settled more than a decade ago. How long shall we spin on this hamster-wheel? Either the west-east swathe cut through the continent by this Y-DNA marker tallies with Aryan migration or it doesn’t.

That matter isn’t settled in genealogy and population genetics today, let alone “more than a decade ago”.

A n*gger, by extension any non-white.

What’s white? (lolzolzolzolzolzorgz)

I think you’d just absorbed too much of the scholarly method to understand where I’m coming from.

Maybe you’ve read too much of that Greek chick who dabbled in Aryanism (I forget her name but the possibility of her ideological non-existence would have been one of the benefits of the Central Powers winning) and de Gobineau.

White is different things to different people

You’ve shown that to be the case so why are you trying to turn it on me? :(

this comes too close to an assertion of deep identity for white people

I don’t get this one, C.M.‘s fave theory would result in “white people” having an even deeper identity, one that went back to the Neolithic, rather than the Chalcolithic/Bronze Age. Since it’s always ideology with you: ideologically, I’d take Anatolia over the steppes but I can’t.

So it must be that those Tocharians out past Lake Baikal, wearing clothing that would have almost been at home in Donegal, had more in common with the muds overrunning Germany than the Boii of Halstatt.

The Tocharians come up (with certainty, that is) a few thousand years later than the people who had more in common with the “muds overrunning Germany” entered Europe (oh God, it’s about the Grand Turk after all). By the time they decided to go East they probably had more in common with the later East Slavs obviously (the beacons of light upon Europe).


You’re a good writer, by the way. I hope my writing can be as pleasing and soothing (honestly!) as yours, one day. Pretty please though, don’t do the lisp thing. It almost ruined it for me.


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Posted by Gudmund on Sun, 18 Sep 2011 02:00 | #

You know damn well what the argument is: they don’t like the central urheimat hypothesis because they’re basically anti-white and this comes too close to an assertion of deep identity for white people, which is *dangerous*. Aryans are *scary*. They oppressed people so their existence should be systematically denied. So it must be that those Tocharians out past Lake Baikal, wearing clothing that would have almost been at home in Donegal, had more in common with the muds overrunning Germany than the Boii of Halstatt. Ok! Aryans didn’t exist. R1a is a mythtery for all time. Nothing is certain. It’s all up in the air. Everything is relative! White is different things to different people. Into scare quotes we go!

The main problem I have is that I can’t get a read on this guy.  He claimed my comments were wrong, basically, and refused to go into why.  That’s not very convincing, whatever his ideological positions might be and frankly I don’t care what they are.  He doesn’t sound quite like a revanchist, eff-whites type to me judging from his subsequent comments (although you never know, some of those types are not the straightest shooters to put it mildly). 

But on to the questions at hand:  Specifically, I’m aware I said haplotype when I meant haplogroup - again, I am not a geneticist and do not work with these terms regularly, but a simple misstep in wording doesn’t invalidate everything I said - but was anything I said re: these haplogroups and their distributions and relationship to phenotype wrong?  Not that I can see.  I’m aware I wasn’t clear enough re: Renfrew’s hypothesis (i.e. that there is an important genetic aspect to it, which was worked out by others - geneticists - well after his linguistic theory was proposed; that is how academic research evolves, though, people pick up on old things when there is more evidence) - but again, how was I wrong about this when Balaresque et al offered evidence that supports Anatolian Hypothesis?  These are valid questions and it’s not very sporting to do the dodge tactic especially if he thinks I’m wrong.  If that’s the case I’m all for being corrected but I don’t think it is.


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Posted by anon / uh on Sun, 18 Sep 2011 02:31 | #

.There’s no need to get into the concept of “proof” here and despite adhering to a steppe origin (see? I’m not anti-“white”, I love them riders), I can’t admit that it’s been “proved” to a certain satisfaction as far as I am concerned.

Then I guess we have different standards. Guys like you will never be satisfied, for, as I contend, you’ve swallowed the postmodern academic lie that nothing is certain, pushed in to the hilt when it comes to the Aryans, who must not be allowed to have existed. Even an unholy leftist like Bruce Lincoln thinks the Anatolian set have just shut their ears to the hard facts marshaled over decades, a mound as high as a kurgan and way taller than theirs, no less than the Hindutva pandits have. At least they bring some passion to it (read Talageri — hilarious). You Western proponents are bloodless beggars of the question. You will observe I am placing you in with the “Anatolians” despite your assurance that you prefer the steppe model. This is because your motive is, as you admit, palpably jaundiced. It so happens that the most talent and proof align with my preference: Aryans may be tentatively identified with the aforementioned genetic marker, and their progress throughout the Continent mapped thereby. Simple as that, hoss. Bit of equestrian humour there for you.

Also I’m not the brightest, so my perspective will be very rough around the edges, and as you note, heavily ideological. I can do no better than to counter that there is an ideological undercurrent in all of the official literature as well, you just haven’t seen through it yet. I except Witzel from this charge; he seems strangely untouched by any fanaticism or vengeance, even in spite of all the hatred that’s been poured on him in the Hindoodoo press, and he doesn’t downplay obvious conclusions like Mallory and Adams.

He seems to have. He has reworked his theory on some matters but you’re the one who should be telling me this.

I can’t be bothered anymore. These matters were settled for me years ago. I read my own boys and the rest can sod off. Literally for archaeologists, lolzlozlzlozlzlolzz   But I will have to give this a wee dekka, thanks for the tip.

Maybe you’ve read too much of that Greek chick who dabbled in Aryanism

You’ll be pleased to learn my taste is not so vulgar. Really, do I strike you as a reader of that fan-girl slop? It proves what I’ve always known, I have no ability to assimilate and reflect what I’ve read. You’d think after thousands of pages of Dumezil just a paragraph or two of good sense would result. But no. I’m still an idiot.

I dunno, you seem more like an anti-white scumbag with your hard-on for pre-Scythians (the name is monstrous yet it caresses your ear?). At least Renfrew was initially concerned with those nice people, ancestral to the first civilizations in Europe, who created those lovely statuettes at the Cyclades and he went from there. Right?

Same starting point as Martin Bernal. But you have me there: I couldn’t care less about statuettes and wine bowls. Doesn’t resonate. I prefer brutality. Haoma-huffing eaters of horse flesh. Gang warfare on the steppes. Reduction of whole peoples to the Aryan yoke. Doesn’t thrill you at all, bro? Oh I know, it was just “cultural diffusion”, they shared their pottery with the good squat Alpines who learned Aryan creole for the benefits, etc. But at least someone back on the steppe was getting really really drunk and doing stunts on horseback, then went a-clobbering down the Indus.


The Tocharians come up (with certainty, that is) a few thousand years later than the people who had more in common with the “muds overrunning Germany” entered Europe (oh God, it’s about the Grand Turk after all).

Not really. But you must admit there’s a possibility the pushers of the Anatolian model are acting partly from attachment to liberal ideology. If so, how would this color the “debate”? In precisely the same way that guru Elst and pandit Talageri argue from their own rabid pro-Hindoo bias. Witzel and his Japanese colleague have settled all that in dozens of articles, debates, blah blah blah, and their magisterial translation of the RV with its priceless introduction. Guess what? All this brainpower comes to exactly the same conclusion as the old guard: Pontic-Caspian steppe. ]

By the time they decided to go East they probably had more in common with the later East Slavs obviously (the beacons of light upon Europe).

I don’t know about that. The Tochs don’t seem to have been an equestrian folk, for one, and we lack absolutely any trace of their kinship structure and living arrangements, for another. As far as their speech, the current theory is that the first arrivals preserved those features in common with centum, while later arrivals provided an Iranian stratum. I am curious to know where you got this idea or if you came up with it yourself, ‘cause it smells like shite.


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Posted by anon / uh on Sun, 18 Sep 2011 03:27 | #

Silver,

Missed your comment. That’s a great story, and I didn’t know the other white meats self-identify as wogs there.

I’m sure there would be some cog-diss if a Brit, say a skinhead, happened to call a Nigerian and Korean in the same room “wogs”, but I am also sure they would do it anyhow. Certainly a Nigerian would sooner be called wog than a Korean, given the word’s origin. I’m in favor of restricting it to negroes but these days I use “kaffir” as a rule: it sounds like a slur, it’s directed at blacks, but not one of my fellow Americans in five-thousands knows what it is. If they ask I tell. If they don’t, maybe they slink off to the bathroom and look it up on their iPhone; or they assume from context that it’s a synonym of “n*gger”. I have trouble with “wog” because my mouth’s muscles aren’t trained to the British manner, so the “o” is open and it sounds just weird.

A friend of mine, good black Irish features, told me no less than three guys called him “wog” while traveling in Northern Ireland.


Kurgan Pride World Wide! Lol.

If you like I will send you one of my “Solutrean Social Club” t-shirts!! Deys good fo swoopin dem flah honeyz at da club. Bitches all like, “daFUCK dat meanz?”, and u be all like, “BITCH, aint u KNOW u a muhfuggin SULootreen? Psk psk, get up on mah body nah.”


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Posted by Guest Lurker on Sun, 18 Sep 2011 03:53 | #

anon/uh wrote:

A last point to consider: Even Razib Khan and Dienekes (two wogs that is) support the Ukrainian model. These are legendary eggheads with a grasp of genetics that soars above all of our heads, including this C.M.

Some interpretations of recent genetic findings are weighing in against the Ukrainian hypotheses in favor of a central European one:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/

Basically, it seems East Eurasian mtDNA lineages were fairly common in pre-Indo-European Ukraine. However, such markers were not found in Bronze Age Corded Ware remains from eastern Germany (see here), with supposed origins on the Eastern Europe steppe, nor are they commonly found in present-day Ukraine. What this suggests is that the Eastern European steppe was not the source of any large-scale migrations into Central Europe. Rather, it’s more likely that the European steppe populations were replaced by successive waves of migrants from Central-Eastern or even Central Europe.


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Posted by James on Sun, 18 Sep 2011 17:18 | #

Indians on paper have wonderful qualifications.  In practice, they rarely live up to their billing.  Having worked with Indians in Canada, USA, Europe and the UAE, I have found them to be work shy, risk adverse, always looking for pen pushing positions with a business card that says manager or director.  I have not yet experienced one that ever met a deadline, ever complied with a budget or could think outside of the box.  They are very poor managers.  Usually, they occupy a position, quickly get into trouble, hide the fact, search frantically for another job, then move.  Rarely, and never in my experience, do they see a project through to completion.  The experience of many countries, including Canada and the UK is that they leverage their degrees (their exams consist of repeating back what they have been told, not original thinking) to get visas, sponsor their families, in turn have large families themselves, then, after they have turned neighborhoods into the slums they left behind in India, you find the relatives and offspring reliant on social security.  I would guess that they have a native cunning, that permits them to ride the backs of other immigrant communities, especially when it comes to taking advantage of liberal laws, but these people do not have a work ethic, which, no matter how high your IQ will limit them to safe jobs, ducking responsibility and migration to the civil service type of work.  I have found the Chinese to be completelly different.  They do have a work ethic and some pride in their neighborhoods.  But the Indians, just a curse really.  In years to come, our grandchildren will ask why we gave away our country to these awful people.


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Posted by matt on Mon, 19 Sep 2011 04:15 | #

I am basing my information on this haplogroup distribution chart below.

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

The haplogroup distribution from various studies. There is a high percentage of males carrying R y dna.
I would say probably about 40%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_South_Asian_populations


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Posted by Boh on Mon, 19 Sep 2011 17:34 | #

My impression is that the Indians have a pretty intact feudal system which, regardless of where they immigrate to, comes along intact with them. The implication of all this is that within a feudal system everybody is considered an outsider indefinitely and actions are taken to benefit members within the feudal system—They wouldn’t put in any more effort than required because they see it as a form of trade to do work. A transaction which finishes the moment its over.


The Chinese/Asians on the other hand want to be embraced on a cultural level, they put in more effort because they wish to show their worth. They want to be part of the society on a fundamental level—to go beyond trade.


I think in a realistic sense Indians would never immigrate unless there was an economic reason, whereas Chinese/Asians might have deeper reasons.

As for IQ, I don’t think people are talking about human intelligence so much as trying to create ethnic based class systems.


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Posted by Bliss on Mon, 19 Sep 2011 19:40 | #

India had the very most advanced civilization for thousands of years, much more advanced than China, only relatively recently has India been surpassed

Cut the stupid ghetto jive-talking already. You are not fooling anyone. The only relics of an advanced civilization that are found in India are those that were built by foreign rulers, the turko-mongol muslim Mughals and the white Christian British. The Hindus were never able to create an advanced civilization, probably because of the asinine caste system. Just read above how disgusted even Gandhi was by the Indian villages in which the overwhelming proportion of Hindus have always lived, or how disgusted Babur the Mongol-Turk conqueror of North India, the Aryan homeland, was by the utter shabbiness and backwardness of his new domain.


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Posted by Bliss on Mon, 19 Sep 2011 20:03 | #

China has been ranking high in the IMO since 1986 (25 years ago) yet China has no Fields Medals, Abel Prizes, or anything equivalent to show for it

Ethnic Chinese have won 2 Fields Medals vs 0 for ethnic Indians.

East Asians have won more than 3 times the Nobel Prizes in the sciences than south Asians.

Technologically, economically, militarily, organizationally, in practically every way east Asia is miles and miles ahead of south Asia. You look very, very stupid bragging about India which is poorer, hungrier, filthier, shabbier than almost any other place on earth. This despite having all the advantages of western inspired political, judicial, educational institutions and the stability and peace of 3 generations since the British handed it over to the Hindus. What this mess proves is that the Brahmins of India, the black and brown sahibs who replaced the British white sahibs as rulers of India, have got to be among the dumbest people on the planet. Yet, shamelessly, they are also the most boastful!


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Posted by Bliss on Mon, 19 Sep 2011 20:27 | #

I already know that the main reason India performs poorly in the IMO is simply because of a bad selection process and pre-college education system

India performs poorly in practically everything, not just the IMO. It has the hungriest children on the planet in both percentage and absolute terms despite having enough farmland. Or look at it’s miserable infrastructure, shabby even by third world standards, despite graduating tons of “engineers” every year. Who or what do you blame for the miserably failed systems and processes of India if not the low intelligence of it’s ruling elite, the upper caste hindus?


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Posted by Bliss on Mon, 19 Sep 2011 21:09 | #

  India never had a high LITERATE population. Brahmins forbade others from learning to read

Like I said the Hindu hereditary caste system is an asinine way to organize a society, another expression of the low intelligence of Indians. Just look at it’s sorry results.

The egalitarian Enlightenment movement of Europe and America which drew inspiration from not just the pagan Greeks but also the Confucian Chinese basically created the modern age. Caste and superstition ridden India has a lot of catching up to do…

Even after generations of independence India still has one of the lowest literacy rates in the world, and what passes for literacy in India is a joke.


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Posted by Bliss on Mon, 19 Sep 2011 22:24 | #

My society bends over backwards to promote blacks, and it’s nigh impossible to find competent ones.

Hey Frank, stop lying to us. Your society is led by a black, Obama, who replaced an incompetent white, Bush. You have more African-American doctors than German-American doctors despite there being more German-Americans than African-Americans. The head of NASA, a former Commander of the Space Shuttle, is African-American. Heads of Fortune 100 corporations are black. American music from jazz to rock to hip hop is the creation of blacks and imitated all over the world. Your all-American sports are dominated by blacks. Your most popular religion, Pentecostalism, was started by a black. Etc, etc.


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Posted by Bliss on Mon, 19 Sep 2011 22:39 | #

my simple test is skin, hair, and eye color—the lighter the better.

Then you should have a fetish for albinos. Do you? Does anybody?

Instead what I see is tons of pasty white men who have a fetish for black haired, black eyed, darker skinned mongoloid females. They seem to find the Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipino women utterly irresistible. It is actually amusing to see them acting more possessive over Asian girls than girls of their own race! How do you think that makes white girls feel? Undesirable and inferior I bet.


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Posted by Bliss on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 00:24 | #

Ethnic Chinese have won 2 Fields Medals vs 0 for ethnic Indians.

Three Japanese and a Vietnamese have also won the Fields Medal. Vietnam also performs much better than India in the International Math Olympiad. So does Iran.


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Posted by Bliss on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 00:39 | #

The Wolf Prize in mathematics has been won by 3 Japanese and 2 Chinese mathematicians vs 0 Indians.

The Wolf Prize in Physics which is second to the Nobels in prestige has been won by 2 Japanese and 1 Chinese vs 0 Indians.

The Wolf Prize in Chemistry has been won once by a Chinese but never by an Indian.

The Wolf Prize in Medicine has been won by 3 Japanese vs 0 Indians/south Asians.


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Posted by C.M. on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:57 | #

indo-europeans were not from central europe or ukraine. Why do you keep whining about that?!
What is your problem then? So they came from the middle east, so what? The biggest mistake you make is to identify “indo-europeans” with R1a (it’s a mongoloid haplotype, the oldest R1a is found in China), it’s not true, the oldest or one of the oldest indo european speeches, Greek, groups into armenian and then more distantly iranian, the greeks came from the middle east, as all people with indo european speeches were. They looked different than now, but that’s not strange, Europeans are mixed heavily, just look at all the different haplotypes.

The problem is with you guys is that you claim certain haplotypes as your own while it’s simply not true, for example R1a, it’s present in Europeans “so it must be from europe”. I wrote before that R1a and R1b originate from Asia, if you don’t believe me just let a professor read my message.
I mean it’s also true of N3, if 60% of finnish males have this haplotype, what does that make? Finnish origin? Of course not, it could not be, because N3 is a sister clade of haplotype O. There are maybe 75 million Chinese males with N3. But N3 is certainly not in the 60% like in finland. What you see in Finland is that people with altaic speech from somewhere near northern China migrated to Finland somewhere in time.

I mean europeans would like to see themsleves as “unique”, but you really are no more than a mix of middle eastern and mongoloid. It’s s the way it is, nothing more, ask any honest geneticist.

I mean how can R1a be a gene of “indo-european”, if ti’s only present primarily in eastern europe, not southern europe and southern europe is certainly the entry point of indo european speakers. Look at greece: it’s primarily J2 and E3b as the theory would have predicted of a middle eastern origin of indo europeans. western europe is where R1b is dominant and it’s not even from europe itself, the people with R1a and R1b could not have spoken indo european languages for one simple reason, R1a and R1b have northern Chinese origin ( there are the people with the oldest coalescent ages of these haplotypes going back way before they emerge in Europe, for example the R1b coalescent age of spanish and irish is only 3000 years old, because these areas where the last areas to be settled by people with R1b).
R1a could not be the language of indo european, it’s simple as that. What exactly the people spoke at the time, I am not sure but it could be something that’s related to the siberian languages or like that of finland, but certainly not indo european.

Now the kurgan (burial mount), if this is something “indo european”, how come there are no burial mounts in europe? You guys are making the mistake of claiming the indo europeans buried their kins in kurgans or rode horses, you can forget about that, the oldest domesticated horses were found in ancient kazakstan, yeah.

the indo europeans cremated their kins, like in middle east, drank wine like everybody in middle east, eat bread like other middle eastern people, looked as other middle eastern people and migrated in the neolithics, 8000 years ago, into europe. Their lifestyle, farming was superior to the hunter gatherer societies so their languages became dominant by culture not by war. If you farm you wait for the food to grow literally, instead of going after ruuning game or collecting wild berries. There was a population explosion in neolithics due to farming. hunter gatherers did not had as many children as the indo european farmers so that’s how europe got their speech conversion. Of course the hunter gatherers married the daughters of the farmers too.


You know where the kurgans are? In Siberia primarily. So no kurgans and no horses for indo european, they aquirred horses much later.


199280

Posted by C.M. on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:25 | #

indo-europeans: middle eastern origin, from anatolia, wheat and barley bread, wine, sheep and cows, the language family is large stretching into india, from it’s point of origin, the middle east.
crops and animals domesticated in middle east, how clearer could it be. European females share almost exactly the same haplogroups as the women in today syria and turkey.

Characteristics of
Siberian steppe nomads: horses domesticated in today’s area of kazakstan, they dug up bones with a mouth bit, I think. kurgans, tattooes, living in kind of tents, bow hunting, alcoholic drink from mare’s milk,


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Posted by C.M. on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:25 | #

genetics don’t lie.

I said that white americans are overwhelmingly descended from southern europeans and it’s true.

The language in america is english, so the southern europeans abide by it.

Most names in america sound english but are the people carrying english names really from british descent? I guess not. You can be a Mcandrews and have 0.00 % scottish ancestry instead you can be anything, like a mix of italian/polish who married into someone bearing that name but descended from greek and french etc.

I am not referring to hollywood actors who changed their names into more anglo sounding ones, but the overwhelming part of whites in america descended from southern europeans, I don’t know wh either, maybe they had more children.


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Posted by anon / uh on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:05 | #

What is your problem then? So they came from the middle east, so what?

So ... it didn’t happen. As I will presently show.

I wirr speak yaw language. Risten up, China Man.

The biggest mistake you make is to identify “indo-europeans” with R1a (it’s a mongoloid haplotype, the oldest R1a is found in China),

It is associated with Altaics, not “Mongoloids” — as it is associated with the movements of the Indo-Europeans. It’s highest frequencies are in Central Asia, Eastern European, then the Altaic region and Scandinavia. Not Zhongguo, Anatolia, or Mongolia.

See? Is very simpawww. China Mayin have big prablim wid dis. He go yon yon yon yon yon faw no leason at aww bout white peopaw come from de middaw eass, cause he HATE white peopaw.


the greeks came from the middle east,

Wrote the anti-white Jew, Martin Bernal. Even other Jews debunked his burrshit. Next prease!

They looked different than now, but that’s not strange, Europeans are mixed heavily, just look at all the different haplotypes.

Ok. Ret’s rook again, sharr we.

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/worldmtdnamap.pdf

In dis wan yew gonna see dat mtDNA haplogroup pledominates in Western Europe, whereas de situation in Qin is much maw confused, i.e. yaw wimmin had reaw hawd time rong rong ago.

Now we gonna rook at Y-DNA:  http://forums.iransportspress.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22953&d=1268865764&thumb=1

As you gonna see from dis, Pekin Meng, West Europeans are extremely low in markers from the Middle East, as are the Han. Italians alone present a high frequency of haplogroup J, which they share with Turks. What dis meeeeaaaaan?  you still don’t berieeeeve me?? Werr den risten stirr China Mayin!

The problem is with you guys is that you claim certain haplotypes as your own while it’s simply not true, for example R1a, it’s present in Europeans “so it must be from europe”.

rrrorzrorzrozrorzrorrozzozzrrzrzz

As you can see, China Mayin, R1a is quite rare among West Europeans, marginal in Germans, more predominant in Norwegians and Slavs. Why? Because this tracks the movements of “Indo-European” tribes across the Continent.

It simpry is true, from available data, that there is a very low frequency of R1a in Anatolia, which may be associated with the “elite dominance” of the “Anatolian group” of “Indo-Europeans” who departed the Urheimat ~2500BC.

Dat crear enough faw youuuuuu? you berrrieeeeeeve me now??

I wrote before that R1a and R1b originate from Asia, if you don’t believe me just let a professor read my message.

Awwrr, haw haw haw haw haw!!! Dat REARRY funny!!! You mean dat R1b mutation dat don’t hardly ESIST in Asia and is AW OVA Eulope COME FROM AZNS??? Yon yon yon yon yon yon, WAAAHHHH!!!

I mean europeans would like to see themsleves as “unique”, but you really are no more than a mix of middle eastern and mongoloid. It’s s the way it is, nothing more, ask any honest geneticist.

Awwwww, hawhawhawhawhaw!! dat rearry REARRY funny!!! White peopaw just MONGOROID n Middaw Eastern, HAWHAWHAHWHAW!!!!  loll on froor raughing!!!!!

You guys are making the mistake of claiming the indo europeans buried their kins in kurgans or rode horses, you can forget about that, the oldest domesticated horses were found in ancient kazakstan, yeah.

Awwww hawhawhawhaw rearry rearry REARRY funny!!! Don’t you know how fah da Eurasian steppe exten’, China Man? There was no “Ukraine” or “Kazakhstan” in 3000BC. “Ukrainian hypothesis” is shorthand for: Eurasian steppe hypothesis. Oops! China Man make stlaw meng argument.

the indo europeans cremated their kins,

Later, starting in Greece and Italy, after contact with European natives. As they did in Indo-Pak, after living with those darkies. Curiously, Zoroastrians “expose” their dead—in towers, kinda like kurgans.

like in middle east, drank wine like everybody in middle east,

And lacked a native word for “wine”.

eat bread like other middle eastern people,

Although their words for bread mean “boil”, “bubble”.

Their lifestyle, farming

And lacked words for farming.

so their languages became dominant by culture not by war.

Despite words relating to warfare.

If you farm you wait for the food to grow literally,

China Man know wut he torking about. His peopaw fom rong rong time.

instead of going after ruuning game

You mean like cave paintings depicting the hunt? or Doric legends of boar-chasing? Scythian legends of the golden stag?

collecting wild berries

Ok, ok. The Finno-Ugrics did that!

There was a population explosion in neolithics due to farming.

There was a population expansion in neolithics due to stock-breeding. On the steppes.

You know where the kurgans are? In Siberia primarily.

Kurgans per se are not the point; that was Gimbutas convention. Pit graves exist all over Eastern Europe ... the Balkans .... central Asia ... well into Xinjiang. Ruh roh!

You do understand that there was cultural borrowing on the Continent, yes? like how the Han were given the wheel and the horse by the ??? ???

indo-europeans: middle eastern origin, from anatolia, wheat and barley bread, wine, sheep and cows,

Despite lacking words for wheat, barley, bread, and wine at the earliest linguistic stratum.

Siberian steppe nomads: horses domesticated in today’s area of kazakstan, they dug up bones with a mouth bit, I think.


Yon yon yon yon yon. Siberians adopted habits from Aryans, just as the Red Man did. Yon yon yon yon yon, hate white peopawww.


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Posted by anon / uh on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:38 | #

genetics don’t lie.

Ignorant Chinee do. Your queue’s a little tight, loosen up.


199284

Posted by C.M. on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:42 | #

Listen stupid fuck:

If R1a is a indo european marker, why don’t dutch have R1a, are they not indo european speakers?
The same goes for brits, norwegians etc.
Altaics are mongoloid people in siberia, you stupid useless american!, there was no fucking movement from indo european people into siberia, the first white russians appear only a couple hundred years ago in Siberia.
Oh fuck r1b does not exist in asia, what the fuck, if those fucked up white geneticist would do a good job you wouldn’t be so fucking disinformed!
you fucking stupid fuck, I tried to type it as clear as possible in your fucked up language but still it’s not clear.
you are out of your fucking mind, europeans are very high in middle eastern markers, like J2, E3b, and I1 (I1 is a sister clade of J2). And the european females, J,T, U, V, but not H because H came from kazakstan.


where did you find the links via fucked up wikipedia bullshit or something, it’s full of crap! I don’t read crap links!

You don’t believe me?Just show it to one of your biology profs in stanford, MIT or whatever overrated institution in the fucked up states of america!

you stupid fuck: spain is full of J2 and e3b can you tell difference between spaniards and lebanese?
That will give you a lead, or can you tell portuguese apart from maroccans?!


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Posted by C.M. on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:51 | #

You stupid dumb ass if you don’t know the difference between a kurgan and a pit grave, then why are you reacting to me message, you know nothing about the subject except blablabla about “urheimat” maybe you are really stupid.

A kurgan is a man made small mountain or big heap of earth covering the grave chamber.
A pit grave is a kind of grave like a hole in the earth.

Kurgans are man made mountains to speak of.


199286

Posted by C.M. on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:55 | #

as stupid as most americans are, the most stupid people on this planet,it would be a pleasure to wipe them out, ignorant people, ok, but stupid people… maybe there is a final solution to that!


199287

Posted by anon / uh on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:00 | #

you stupid useless american!

There. Does it not feel better to be honest?

 

where did you find the links via fucked up wikipedia bullshit or something, it’s full of crap! I don’t read crap links!

Nor books, evidently. Not by “fucked up white geneticists”, at least. Because white people are evil middle eastern mongoloids, as you have shown, conclusively.

 

A kurgan is a man made small mountain or big heap of earth covering the grave chamber.
A pit grave is a kind of grave like a hole in the earth.

I say t??me?to?, you say t??m??t??.

Scurry off now, Ding Dong Wang. Someone’s tea is going cold.


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Posted by C.M. on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:12 | #

Well well well, stupid america man from trailer park wants to say something.

I want to add this: america is a fucked up society and everything america stand for should be avoided by true patriotic Chinese like the fucking rubber sole hamburgers, the fucking cars they drive, the fucking hollywood movies they make, plus everything considered western values like democracy and other crap!

I am so glad that americans know how true Chinese patriots think.


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Posted by Leon Haller on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:23 | #

C.M.,

What has China given to the world, really? Very little. The few things of value only became valuable when the white man was able to perceive alternative uses.

And remember: China has always had the largest population in the world, as well as the excellent old Confucian civil service. And yet, the Chinese have accomplished comparatively little (not just in science and technology, but the arts, music, literature, philosophy, etc).

Almost everything of value on the planet came from the Aryan (though in recent centuries the Jews have, it must be admitted, also made some positive contributions, along with a lot of negative ones).

I’m not sure you’re even a real Chinaman.


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Posted by C.M. on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:42 | #

Sure sure, belgium man also wants to make a contribution, I wil take my gunpowdered pistol against your fucking electric invented what?

The big mistake is that China did not take full advantage of everything we invented, instead we were just too peaceful but this mistake will not happen again. If we used gunpowder to slaughter other people, China would have a much higher living standards.

what value? your prada handbags, your eau de cologne (cost 10 eurocent ingredients, alcohol, water, artificial flavor) that sell for excessive dollars?
what have you invented that is worth anything? movies? music? every culture has invented entertainment, I don’t give a fuck about hollywood movies.

west has invented nothing that is useful, do you relly think the overrated and overpriced western stuff are things considered useful?

the only thing you succeeded in tricking all these backward and stupid people in buying western crap like handbags and “brand” clothing like those 3 dollar jeans that sell for 200 euro.

Just look at those useless monkeys in the desert with their oilmoney, they hired these whites to build a golf course in the middle of desert, great invention golf course in desert!

you think inventing mass production is some kind of big feat of whites?
you may have defeated those arabs and other monkeys but first defeat us on the field before I think west is so great, because I am not convinced at all.


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Posted by anon / uh on Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:07 | #

The big mistake is that China did not take full advantage of everything we invented, instead we were just too peaceful but this mistake will not happen again.

It is really a pity that you inimitably peaceful, South Asia-conquering, Sun Tzu-reading Chinese were unable to profit from “your” one game-changing invention because “you” were too busy beheading and immolating each other (Warring States), before adopting the crossbow and Western cavalry tactics in pursuit of your prideful navel-gazing. Paw’ peace-roving Chinee! He smoke his opium while white devo’ rape the centre du cul du monde.

Just look at those useless monkeys in the desert with their oilmoney,

Our ancestors, you mean? rorzrorzrorzrorzrzrzrzzz

 

you think inventing mass production is some kind of big feat of whites?

About as big as inventing the wheel. Which one of your Emperors ordered through the Sears-Roebuck, Silk Road Edition along with horses that “sweat blood”.


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Posted by Why America is a Superpower on Wed, 21 Sep 2011 23:18 | #

Michio Kaku explains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM&feature=topvideos_science

Basically, USA is a superpower because of the Indians , because of the Chinese, and because of other immigrants who are not pure breed whites. Without them USA would be nowhere.

I think one group that should be specifically mentioned are the Jews that immigrated to USA at late 19th and early 20th century. Most of America’s big name projects(nuclear, space, computers etc) of the 20th had Jewish and Eastern European names written all over them. But Jews are not white, of course. They look more like a mix of relatively upper-cast Indians and pure-breed whites.  They are like half-breeds who have interbred for many centuries.

So, what USA currently boasts of has very little to do with “white supremacy” and has lot more to do with “white diplomacy” - to be able to steal the best minds from the rest of the world. The pure breed whites have contributed very little compared to what they have stolen from the other great minds - not just from India and China, all over the world - The middle east (especially Israel, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Uzbekistan etc), the eastern half of Europe( as far as Russia) and also to some extent from Latin America and Africa.

The pure-breed whites, however, have contributed in barbaric ways. Most of the wars have been started by them. Forget the Hiroshima, forget the Nazis, take more recent examples - There is a Hiroshima right now in Iraq - More handicapped and disabled children are being born in Falujah than rest of the world combined-(USA, of course, denies that) , Afghanistan was destroyed and most recently in Northern Africa where they got their European pet dogs to wag their tails for them. The pictures of destruction coming from northern Africa were more horrifying than WTC on September 11.

Oh and fight terrorism? Don’t make us laugh! Noam Chomsky said the right thing - he pointed out the barbaric activities that was done by USA and Bush. Bush has killed at least a dozen times more than what Laden did - yet, USA didn’t even ask for any permissions before invading Pakistan and Afghanistan. Mr. Chomsky points how they broke International laws! He rightly asked about how USA would react if these countries invaded the white house and killed Bush and left?

Hell, they don’t even know how to respect their own heroes! Just look at how they treated BOBBY FISCHER!


Oh and Indians are poor? China is poor? Yes, some are - but the thing is the cost these people have to pay are also much less - so most live quite stress free. And you don’t have to live glamorously to live comfortably.


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Posted by Bliss on Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:04 | #

Oh and Indians are poor? China is poor? Yes, some are - but the thing is the cost these people have to pay are also much less - so most live quite stress free. And you don’t have to live glamorously to live comfortably.

1. Don’t try to lump India with China, you are just flattering yourself. It makes more sense to lump India with Africa. China has done a far better job feeding, educating and employing it’s people than India.

2. it is so typical of Hindus to lie about or callously dismiss the massive hunger and poverty of India like you are doing. How can you live “comfortably” when you are starving or malnourished? Or when you don’t have access to clean water or toilets? There are more far more hungry women and children in India than in all of Africa. Over half of all Indian children are malnourished. Shame on you for pretending they are living comfortable lives!

3. America can easily remain wealthy without immigrants from India. Don’t flatter yourself so much. These Indians should instead be trying to develop their hungry and impoverished motherland which needs them far more than already developed nations like America.


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Posted by matt on Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:36 | #

R1a most likely originated in western india looking at the Coalescent time estimates for R1a1a(xM458).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987245/?tool=pmcentrez

wow, lol this forum started to get pretty crazy with the name calling. I was always been curious about genetics. It doesn’t really matter after all if you are European, Asian or African.


199295

Posted by Bliss on Thu, 22 Sep 2011 10:51 | #

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10609407

“Eight Indian states account for more poor people than in the 26 poorest African countries combined, a new measure of global poverty has found.

The Indian states, including Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and West Bengal, have 421 million “poor” people, the study found.

This is more than the 410 million poor in the poorest African countries, it said.”


199296

Posted by Silver on Sat, 24 Sep 2011 01:02 | #

Uh,

Missed your comment. That’s a great story, and I didn’t know the other white meats self-identify as wogs there.

Well, there were only two sorts of people in the Australia I grew up in: ‘wogs’ and ‘aussies’ (unless you counted the abos…but, well, you know…), and everyone knew it; so, ‘self’-identify, yes, but only after the choice was forced on us; much the same way blacks ‘self-identify’ as niggers/niggas/niggaz.  The difference, of course, is that anglos and northern whites are permitted by society to refer to wogs as wogs, and in the presence of wogs and/or to the wog or wogs in question and not raise eyebrows or cause offense. 

That last bit depends entirely on context, of course.  I wouldn’t take offense if I were being rebuked and I knew I was in the wrong, eg cutting off someone in traffic I wouldn’t be at all shocked to hear <<BEEEEEEEP>> “ya fuckin’ wog!!!”  On the other hand, when it’s used as a provocation I’ll admit it has a way of escalating the situation.  For example, (true story) walking past a pub one night someone challenged with me, “Can your t-shirt get any tighter, ya fuckin’ wog?”  That would have been a provocation even without the ‘ya wog,’ but I probably would have let it go.  As it was, well.. the truth is I got my ass soundly kicked that night. Bastards.

I’m in favor of restricting it to negroes but these days I use “kaffir” as a rule: it sounds like a slur, it’s directed at blacks, but not one of my fellow Americans in five-thousands knows what it is. If they ask I tell. If they don’t, maybe they slink off to the bathroom and look it up on their iPhone; or they assume from context that it’s a synonym of “n*gger”.

Kaffir can work.  You can also defend its use on a religious basis, should the need arise. (Its an islamic/arabic term for an ‘unbeliever.’)  For me, though, nothing signals supreme racial frustration and disgust like ‘nigger.’ 

I have trouble with “wog” because my mouth’s muscles aren’t trained to the British manner, so the “o” is open and it sounds just weird.

No, if you’re American you don’t even bother with ‘wog.’  The American drawl takes the sting right out of it. The effect is akin to that of pronouncing nigger with an long ‘i’—n-eye-gger.  Doesn’t work.

Guys like you will never be satisfied, for, as I contend, you’ve swallowed the postmodern academic lie that nothing is certain, pushed in to the hilt when it comes to the Aryans, who must not be allowed to have existed.

Cutting remark.  This is one reason I’m a racist-even-though-I’m-not-all-that-racist: I just can’t stand all the nauseating bullshit spoken about race.  Even though I’m convinced that a life lived racially is a life better lived—and which is why I’ll support WNs, even hardass ones, despite my great dislike/wariness of them—I actually find it hard to get worked up over race in real life (except when it comes to nogs [in numbers] and their ways).  But when it comes to racial obscurantism—or anti-white animus masquerading as obscurantism—I have to put my foot down.  You’re hardly wrong, Uh: things have degraded to the point where even allowing that Aryans existed (or exist) is considered repugnant.  It’s virtually a form of ‘reverse white supremacy’ (especially when pushed by Aryans themselves): yes, whites once lived in all these lands and accomplished great feats but this must never be acknowledged, because the weight of such knowledge would simply crush non-whites, delicate little flowers that they are. 

What rubbish it all is.  I want the facts.  I’m a big boy, I can take it.  If the truth is that Aryans accomplished (and accomplish, but more the former, or so I would argue) pretty much everything of note in this world, then I want to know about it.  I couldn’t care less what such truth (allegedly) ‘says’ about me or people like me.  Obviously there is no shortage of WN types who like to gleefully claim it means non-whites are useless, inferior vermin, parasites, blah blah, but in reality it’s within every individual’s power to decide for himself whether to value his individual and group existence and to live his life in accordance with such value or not, regardless of what ‘the facts say’ or of what other people think.  If anti-racists truly wished to empower people to ‘overcome racism,’ clearly a better way to do so would be to enable individuals and groups to adopt self-valuing attitudes and maintain them and reinforce them over time, rather than to demand that the world change (and in the case of the white world, cease to exist) so that they can feel better about themselves. (I say if anti-racists ‘truly’ wished to help because a large contingent of anti-racists do not truly wish to help at all.  ‘Anti-racism’ is just their latest means of prosecuting the revolutionary transformation of society that, for reasons normal people find hard to grasp, they remain ever so keen on. And if they hate racists so much that they can’t help but do everything in their power to ruin racists’ lives, empowering people to ‘overcome racism’ on their own is more powerful here also, if one considers the exasperation of those racists who base their racism on feeling superior—since the thrill of feeling superior dissipates if the party you’re feeling superior to doesn’t seem to care.


199297

Posted by C.M. on Tue, 27 Sep 2011 17:57 | #

To the hindu “Matt”

“R1a most likely originated in western india looking at the Coalescent time estimates for R1a1a(xM458)”

matt: Just browse “M45”, just to read your own stupidty.

M45 is the overlapping “parental group” of Eurasians which includes Americans Indians, now are you saying that “american Indians” originate from western india ?!

How stupid are you?

I say it again: R1a and R1b originate in northern China. There are the oldest R1a and R1b lineages, going back to tens of thousands of years.

R1b is rediculously young compared to Asian (Chinese) and it’s the same for R1a, oldest R1a is found in Russia, with coalescent age of 12000 years, compare that to Chinese 23000 years.
The european R1a and R1b are just younger branches of Chinese!


199298

Posted by C.M. on Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:13 | #

I have seen some figures in a report about the coalescent age of R1a and R1b.

The oldest European R1a is found in Russia (as expected because Russia is a neighbour of China) then the age diminish westwards. Logical after all, compare it to the branches of a tree.
Now Russia 12000 years, then 9000 years the Balkan, and then 5000 years the R1a in countries like Norway.

R1b is even younger in some parts of Europe:just a rediculous 3000 years ago that R1b people arrived in countries like Spain and Ireland (youngest). Now it’s not the point where the percentage is the highest as someone said, the percentage is not important, there is a Siberian tribe who whas over 90 percent of R1a, we call this genetic drift. So you can blablabla that Europe has high percentage of R1a and R1b, but that does not mean it originates in Europe. In my previous post I gave this example of N3 of Finnish people: they are in the range of 60% compared to 12.5% in northern China, but does this mean the higher percentage is the place of origin? No, the only thing that is important is the coalescent age of the particular gene, which is also just about 3000-2000 years old. N3 in Europe is the most youngest of all male haplogroups. The N3 in China is much older because it originates there.

To claim otherwise is like claiming that the australians are the ancestors of english, just as stupid.

A bit of logical thinking in europeans would be wellcome, europeans are people who like to delude themselves with everything.


199299

Posted by anon / uh on Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:35 | #

I say it again: R1a and R1b originate in northern China.

cf.

The oldest European R1a is found in Russia (as expected because Russia is a neighbour of China)


Someone’s having to give ground.

By the way, Russia = “Ukraine”.

Oops! Back to “Europe” go the Aryanz.

So you can blablabla that Europe has high percentage of R1a and R1b, but that does not mean it originates in Europe.

The claim is not that R1a originated in West Europe; but that it originated in the Russian expanse, probably in or around “the borderland”, Ukraine.

Whether R1b originated in the Pyrenees or not is out of my specialty. Seems likely given the environmental pressure (LGM) exactly analogous to that which is thought to have seen the birth of R1a in the east. 

Wait, why the f*ck am I trying to reason with anti-white Chinese supremacist?

Tea’s getting cold, Fang To Dong. Time to replenish. Do you like your queue pulled sometimes? I bet you do, naughty naughty chinee. No tickee no pockee.


199300

Posted by C.M. on Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:46 | #

The whole idea of ukranian refuge or something is totally stupid. but to get back to r1a, the oldest R1a found in europe is in russia, the oldest R1a of ALL, you stupid moron, is in China!

CAN YOU READ?!

There was no fucking ukranian refuge in ice age, some moron introduce this idea and the other morons just copy and paste.

“Whether R1b originated in the Pyrenees or not is out of my specialty”
Of course you know nothing as you admitted: I would be surprised if you knew anything at all.


199301

Posted by anon / uh on Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:39 | #

There was no fucking ukranian refuge in ice age, some moron introduce this idea and the other morons just copy and paste.

I trust any following this screed can hear the shrieking of the little Chinaman as he forces paleohistory into his preferred shape.

Uklainian LEFUGE AREUHH?? Some MAW-WAN introduce dat n otha MAW-WANS jes COPY-PAYSS’!

COPY-PAYSS’!!! MOTHA!@#$@%!!!

Christ, now I have to watch South Park. “Why u open SHITTY SUSHI next to my SHITTY WOK??!!”


199302

Posted by Racism is stupid. This blog proves it. on Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:10 | #

This blog is living proof of the stupidity of racism

This blog proves why racists are stupid.
Just look at the all the speculations with haplogroups they come up with to fulfill their own satisfaction.

I am going to write in a manner so that even the less informed person should be able to understand.

Basically the only scientifically acceptable evidence we have right now gives a broader picture of the original migration of the human race. We all originated somewhere in Africa and we moved from their along different branches.
To understand, watch a documentary like this one called the “The Journey of Man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBJDGzzrMyQ

There are at least half a dozen documentaries like the above one. Just to name a few you can also watch:
The Incredible Human Journey
The Human Family Tree
In Search Of Adam
The Real Eve

Basically, we all came from Africa. All non-Africans share a common ancestry as little as 60-70 thousand years back and all human beings in general share a common ancestry as little as 150 thousand years ago. Here is a rough idea map of early man migration.

Notice the word EARLY. We can’t tell much about recent migration(such as if “Aryan” migration actually occurred, the reason is recent intermixing )

So we are all Africans. This includes the Chinese too, where they are usually brainwashed to believe other things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQJzhFGuoHg

And how do we know this? There are basically two main ways. One is to look at the Y chromosome and the other is to look at the mt-DNA. Y chromosome is passed from father to father, so it gives paternal lineages and similarly mt-DNA gives the maternal lineage. What we actually look for in this y-chromosome are patterns of mutations or markers which these guys are calling haplogroups - which is the technical term.

The thing is, by looking at the overall patterns of distribution of markers along various ethnic groups in various geographic locations one can only get a broader picture of migration like shown in those documentaries(because people have intermixed for long), which is why speculations of realtively recent events like what is made in this blog are useless self-pleasing speculations, nothing more. Moreover, it appears that even the data doesn’t match from one person to another.

There is another reason why classifying human beings into races and treating them like different breeds of dogs doesn’t make sense. Consider this - the genetic difference that exists between two nearby groups of chimpanzees in neighbouring forests is more than the genetic difference found within the entire human race. And if anything, dogs should be much more diverse than chimps.
The reason for this fact is that human beings came terribly close to extinction. At one point there were less than 2000, possibly much less, human beings living in Africa. And the group that left Africa and gave rise to all non- Africans were even less in number -around 100 probably. Compare the chimps- their numbers never dropped below 20,000 and their population never increased as fast as humans. Which basically translates to- we are an incredibly close group.

Some like C.M are just plain nuts. Others like matt says that they are just curious about genetics (like me), but in reality he too cannot come out of certain racist assumptions. These people have just convinced themselves about some kind of strong relation between certain mutations and intelligence based on certain intuitive feelings developed on the basis of limited observations.
However, if you just think about it a bit it doesn’t make any sense.

Firstly, These markers appeared randomly as human beings branched out from one location to another. For example , if a “white skin” mutation occurs in a small group/branch, all subsequent branches will have white skin. However, very soon each of these branches will acquire many more new mutations and will further branch and mutate. As a result this small similarity of white skin gets overshadowed by other new dissimilar features to call “white skin” a race.

Secondly, The human species is too recent to have developed significant genetic differences.

Thirdly, It is possible for different genotypes to give rise to similar phenotypes. There are such examples in humans as well. One example is lactose tolerance(milk digestion) in adults. Majority are lactose intolerant- for example, lactose tolerance is extremely rare among east-asians. It is, however, found in certain groups. Two such examples are in northern europeans and eastern africans. Both obtained lactose tolerance independently and at different times(both when they started cattle rearing). So, if you apply this to intelligence, it is entirely possible that one branch of a certain haplogroup is more similar in intelligence to another branch of another haplogroup than to another branch of it’s own haplogroup.

And another thing this lactose example shows is how stupid the concept of race is. For example, one can easily build a lactose tolerant “race” instead of “white” race. But no, we don’t look for that - what we look for are certain common sense notions that appeals to us usually related to external appearances.


199303

Posted by Racism is stupid. This blog proves it. on Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:18 | #

And another thing this lactose example shows is how stupid the concept of race is. For example, one can easily build a lactose tolerant “race” instead of “white” race. But no, we don’t look for that - what we look for are certain common sense notions that appeals to us usually related to external appearances.

There are even more reasons to believe that racists are stupid. One reason is that they tend to believe in genetic determinism- that is, what you become is written in your genes and you can’t change. Forget skills and abilities, even physical traits aren’t completely “determined” by genes. Enter epigenetics. Each of the cells in your body have exactly the same DNA. Then how come your eyes are different from ears or tongue? The answer lies in epigenetics. The so called genes only do things like producing proteins or enzymes. But whether they actually produce that protein can be turned on and off using epigentic codes. The cells in different tissues are different because different genes are turned on and off in different kinds of cells. However, epigenetics isn’t predetermined at birth. The epigenome constantly interacts with with environment. It’s like a medium through which genes and environment interact. Even physical activities and psychological factors like stress can alter epigenome. And epigenome is the reason why identical twins tend to become more and more different as they grow up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV8FM_d1Leo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj4d-9Jgl6g
And some epigenetic changes, especially during puberty and pregnancy can span sevral generations.
Watch the documentary “Ghost In The Genes” for better understanding.

There is also some evidence found in certain organisms where the mutation rates can speed up under environmental stress in order to adapt. There are actually mutator genes which can turned on-off with response to environment. There is still a lot to understand about evolution, but one thing these things like epigenetics tell us is how important the environmental factors are.

And If you note how genes and environment interact, it is actually meaningless to assert something like a “percentage” to heritability of genes. Because not only is it impossible to provide an exactly identical environment, but different environments may be better for different individuals. Like pointed out earlier, environment and experience are two very different things.

And lastly, I will touch upon yet another stupid assumption by racists -  which is that IQ is somewhat unchangeable and that it is actually very important.Here is a link to an excellent article:
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2007/12/17/071217crbo_books_gladwell?printable=true
The article just flat out destroys both of the above claims.
In India, for example, educated people usually first encounter IQ type tests only after school. No wonder that some old childhood measurements aren’t that high. There are plenty of people who increase their scores in those kind of tests massively over a period of time.
IQ tests that are verbal tend to rely on vocabulary, which relies of knowledge and are culturally biased.
But even those that aren’t, the kind of progressive matrices used to measure Chinese IQ,also tend to rely on knowledge of abstract pattern. the thing with abstract patterns is however that you have to do some mental calculations or transformations before you can match a pattern. That’s why abstract knowledge coupled with working memory is a very good predictor of IQ. Abstract knowledge can always be increased with experience. For working memory, you need to train it like muscles and eat good food.
Moreover, these IQ test questions aren’t very consistent. Often the same question can be answered in two different ways by thinking along two different lines. So whatever IQ is, it’s definitely not a measure of some kind of innate qualitative thinking.

And also remember that the most important part of human evolution isn’t the bigger brain, there are other mammals with bigger brains, rather it’s the fact that they can communicate verbally(vocal chord) and use two hands with an opposable appendage(the thumbs). The evolution of the vocal chord and thumbs is what led to bigger brains because of greater intellectual stimulation.
And who knows, perhaps it is possible to teach even chimpanzee calculus if we can just communicate with them properly.

While I have exposed the stupidity of racism, I am sure racists will still exist because human stupidity is infinite and that is what is sad.


199304

Posted by anon / uh on Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:28 | #

This blog is living proof of the stupidity of racism

The blog is alive?

the genetic difference that exists between two nearby groups of chimpanzees in neighbouring forests is more than the genetic difference found within the entire human race.

Anchoring. -1% genetic difference is all that’s necessary to result in phenotypic differences, which also have gross results in modern social contexts, specially adapted to accommodate one or another type, not concurrently.

Secondly, The human species is too recent to have developed significant genetic differences.

Your breakfast was recent. Two and a half million years cannot be described as “recent” even grammatically. 


Majority are lactose intolerant-

Majority does not carry the gene for lactose tolerance. Does not mean they cannot consume dairy. Witness south Indians — gene absent, but they love curd.


You could have saved yourself time by simply stating your belief that “there is no such thing as the white race”.


199305

Posted by matt on Thu, 29 Sep 2011 19:03 | #

I completely agree with the above two posts. After all skin color is just one single mutation and it varies all around the world. It is possible for different mutations like lactose tolerance to occur in different parts of the world. After all life might just be a hologram anyways.  I guess the whole idea of race is something that has been created as a way to compete for natural resources.  Our overly materialistic society is what is giving life to these ideas as people need to reduce competition based on social status, skin color, gender, nation origin etc. Maybe society should place more importance on living in harmony with nature.


199306

Posted by Racism is stupid. on Thu, 29 Sep 2011 21:28 | #

@anon / uh

I don’t think you even understood what I was trying to say.
BTW, human beings as a species are AT MOST 250 thousand years old, not 2.5 million years. You are probably talking about the genus homo, all of whose branches other than modern human beings has died out. And all living human beings can be traced to common ancestry only about 150 thousand years ago, even less for non-africans.

@matt

I am glad that you agree.
BTW, I think the general consensus is that there are more than one genes involved in producing the skin colour. And there are probably epigentic factors involved as well - take tanning for example. ( or take the fact that red heads use the same pigment in their hair as people in general do in their lips.)


199307

Posted by Graham_Lister on Thu, 29 Sep 2011 21:51 | #

@racism is stupid

I don’t have time right now to discuss all of your point and it would take quite a long time to point out the misinterpretations, half-truths and omissions in your posts however let me point our this; You obviously know VERY little about social evolution.

But forget direct biological arguments.

There is overwhelming sociological evidence that ‘diverse’ societies are worse places to live in and that maximally homogeneous societies are those with the highest levels of social-capital, trust and the fewest social pathologies.

It is not an accident that Denmark and Japan, for two examples, have excellent scores on the quality of life scale. In fact these relationship hold within nations also: in the USA the most homogeneous states score much higher on social-capital etc. It is a robust empirical observation.

This is not my assertion about the superiority/inferiority of any particular ethnic/cultural group rather it would also hold if little green men with 200 IQs were the minority/source of diversity.

People do not want to live in overtly diverse societies with ever more socio-cultural cleavages that have deep and potentially explosive political consequences (do you know the history of Indian partition for example?).

I would never wish to be anywhere near to being in the non-majority group in my own society. This wish has nothing to do with vulgar racism and everything do to with political and sociological realities.


199308

Posted by C.M. on Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:58 | #

To this anon uh

yet another fucking moron who is a stupid middle aged old man, thinking he knows it all, including matter of science, you fucking stupid moron, I am a man of science, unlike you fucking retarded old man! I know what I am talking about, but maybe I am wasting my time to try to explain things to a fucking moron who would not understand it anyway.

You stupid old man! Solving things of diverse topics is easy for me, including where the indo-european speakers came from (anatolia).

Look at the fucking shitty country you are from, it’s full of morons and idiots, they can’t even run their own country, of course it’s full of greedy old men stealing and engage in fraud. yeah. The reason why your sorry little country is such a mess because democracy is a sham, it should be called oligarchy instead (rule by rich people) but of course you are too stupid to understand this. No wonder why western culture is crap!

Watching “southpark” is for morons and you are one of them!

I can beat the crap out of you easily, old man.


199309

Posted by C.M. on Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:09 | #

thsi moron anon uh stupid old man living in his fantasy world, watching “southpark”...no wonder this stupid idiot is clueless.

remember moron, I am from undefeated China, not from your useless colonies. Wed on’t give a fuck about america and the west and that’s the truth, ask any Chinese about that and they won’t even know what’s the capital of england, so insignificant is europe.

we can stick our middle finger into the face of america and americans know that.
Fuck america!

I mean what’s is it like for europeans to be bossed around by americans in the same fashion as auxiliaries fighting american wars. In case of taiwan crisis I hope that americans will caome to the rescue of taiwan ordering their europeans to come along, we will crush you like insects!


199310

Posted by C.M. on Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:17 | #

useless fucking americans with your worthless dollar, the whole country is just a concept, stealing all the land from the indians, and these stupid laowei want to say something about “tibet”.
Yeah hand back the land to the indians and we can start talking about “tibet” or “taiwan”.

fucking shit americans, nuking you from here to eternity is the only right thing to do for this planet.


199311

Posted by C.M. on Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:24 | #

Only the indians are entitled to america, you build up the country with its infrastructure, well break it all down and give the land back to indians before you start to whine about immigration of mexicans and other people.

Hand the land back to the indians and then go back to the place of your ancestors. Then we can talk about “tibet” and “taiwan”.


199312

Posted by C.M. on Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:34 | #

Or better give back alaska to the eskimos or give back at least half of “usa” to the indians.

I have a better idea, maybe everybody should go back to their ancestral lands, australians go back to the london jails, “americans” go back to sicily, ireland and greece etc.

Brilliant idea, let’s all go back, black “americans” go back to nigeria and “american"jews go back to israel.

america should not exist.


199313

Posted by Matt Parrott on Fri, 30 Sep 2011 18:38 | #

remember moron, I am from undefeated China, not from your useless colonies. Wed on’t give a fuck about america and the west and that’s the truth

China has a couple decades of progress and prosperity after centuries of FAIL and that’s all they need to get their Middle Kingdom mojo back.

China is a seething mass of hundreds of millions of men with inferiority complexes, a historically unprecedented subset of whom will never get laid due to structural imbalances in their demographic profile.

I’ve got a smart idea. Let’s borrow a shit ton of money from them then stiff them on it, hand our entire military-industrial infrastructure over to them, have our most pathetic losers pick off enough of their women to refocus their sexual frustration in our direction, then load up our military with a motley assortment of foreign mercenaries, bumbling negroes, homosexuals, and assorted perverts and freaks.

What could possibly go wrong?


199314

Posted by Leon Haller on Fri, 30 Sep 2011 21:37 | #

Fortunately, the Chinese government appears to be led by men a good deal wiser than this CM idiot, though I don’t doubt that he does represent a sizable contingent of the men in the street.

Anyway, we must all be eternally grateful for Deng’s one-child policy. China’s population will grow smaller in the future, though the sheer population imbalance is so great that China will become the world’s dominant power, especially if white men keep building up their economy for them (if Lister really understood the force of his own anti-Hayekian critique, he would be directing his fire at the theoretical assumptions behind tolerance of this suicidal aspect of economic globalism - lowering short term labor costs at the expense of long term national security, parasiting off a secure future, as it were).


199315

Posted by Lurker on Sat, 01 Oct 2011 07:25 | #

this CM idiot

You’re being way too generous to him Leon!


199316

Posted by Desmond Jones on Sat, 01 Oct 2011 07:27 | #

a historically unprecedented subset of whom will never get laid due to structural imbalances in their demographic profile.

Maybe not.

In my neighborhood is a Chinese engineer who returned from Angola, and his wife is a black girl. However, she’s one of those very pretty high-end black girls. She’s very slender and not one of those fat auntie types. Her skin also isn’t the kind of oily/greasy black but rather black-brownish and more brown. They have two children, about five or six years old, twin boys.

http://www.chinasmack.com/2011/pictures/chinese-men-with-black-women-african-wives.html


199317

Posted by paul on Sat, 01 Oct 2011 08:45 | #

The one-child policy may not have actually worked as well as believed.

There was a report on Al Jazeera which can be seen on YouTube about how when China started its one-child policy 30 years ago, they selected one of their cities as a control group for a secret experiment to see what would happen if families had the freedom to have more than one child: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9kdQLQYT5w

They found that the population in that city has actually grown at a slower rate than the national average.


199318

Posted by paul on Sat, 01 Oct 2011 08:52 | #

The control city also has a more even gender balance than the national average.


199319

Posted by keep lol on Mon, 03 Oct 2011 11:25 | #

Lol   the chinese are smarter—thats why they make stuff on the factory floor pushing buttons on imported automated machines that Indians happened to program working in a office drinking quality coffee.

You know why White people don’t mind calling you smart? cause your busy doing their manual labor for them and then giving them the money you earned so they can blow it on coke and pussy—gotta keep the help content!

I forgot though, Indians are really crappy engineers/techs and the only reason they are hired is to drive prices down because the really smart White engineers are too proud to work for that type of pay and instead flip burgers—a process that could be automated if only someone with engineering skills was around…0.o                

Seriously though—-White American people are lucky that their military/industrial power complex has some love for them and actively tries to redistribute advantage in multiple indirect forms—not really true for other societies.


199320

Posted by Puccini on Tue, 04 Oct 2011 03:07 | #

“Lol the chinese are smarter—thats why they make stuff on the factory floor pushing buttons on imported automated machines that Indians happened to program working in a office drinking quality coffee. “

That’s right.  Programming is Indian’s forte.  Bow to the IT superpower:

India, the world’s IT Superpower


199321

Posted by still Lol on Tue, 04 Oct 2011 06:17 | #

Competitions, tests, scientific studies—heard of reality? What part of keeping the help content are you failing to perceive? Even the Mexicans catch on faster than you lot.


199322

Posted by Rikshay on Wed, 05 Oct 2011 20:39 | #

WOW!!! u ppl r racist barstards!!! Im a South African Hindu of Indian decent( half Dravidian and half Brahmin) - 16 years- and ive got an IQ of 135- how can u generallize the iq of a nation with over 800 000 of its ppl are living in poverty…........India and China are both very successful nations in their own right…...India and China is the base of International Civilization…...Europeans were too busy being barbaric and conquring nations and stealing their wealth…........India was the wealthiest country b4 the brits f’d the country up!!!Actsof violence!!! - is that what the bible teaches you?

shut eye


199323

Posted by meh on Thu, 06 Oct 2011 23:21 | #

It’s amazing how this discussion was started in 2005 and people are still posting(me included).


199324

Posted by Dot Buster on Fri, 07 Oct 2011 05:18 | #

All the statistics show that Indian people are stupid, on average.  And the self proclaimed IT superpower turns out to be an IT non-superpower (see the post by Puccini on October 04, 2011, 02:07 AM).  Yet these dirty desi has the gall to call American people unemployable, destroying great American company one by one and turned it into curry den.

“...American tech grads are ‘unemployable’...”

- Vineet Nayar, CEO, HCL Technologies

American tech grads are unemployable


199325

Posted by sampan on Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:28 | #

@anon
commenting regarding ur sept 03 reply.
first of all i dont have any grudge towards chinnese or east asians.but for shake of ur information,please don’t give false information.where did i say about india?
u have asked where were u guys in 1895-well my reply was based on the city of calcutta.
now ltake a note where we were in that time.in 1895 sir jagadish bose first showed radio transmission in calcutta-two years later the first theoretical form was shown by nikola tesla in usa. then in several tours to england-he finally showed the recieving coherer at royal institution.and he was the first easterner who who got an offer from chembridge for teaching post-although he did not accepted.
then in 1902 calcutta brought the first nobel prize of entire british empire.in 1913 first non european literature nobel prize winner rabindranath tagore became a global phenomenon-the first man who connnected east and west.then first nobel prize in physics from asia came to this city.in between in 1916 satyendra bose and mn saha first translated einstein’s general theory of relativity in english.and in 1924 einstein tranlated satyendra bose’s paper in german-which is now known as bose einstein statistics-and this theory hass produced atleast half a dozen nobel prize,latest being in 2001 when 3 american scientist won it for bose einstein condensate.
this city has produced asia’s first and only nobel prize winner in economics too.
two nobel prize winning medicine research carried out in asia-both malaria and vitro fertilization had occoured in this very city.
mother teressa,arguably the greatest peace prize winner is also from this city.
recently amazon.com has produced a book on great physist-where satyendra bose features in 25th position-the best rated eastern scientist.the city is directly connected with 5 nobel prize winner and two other who spent certain time here.plus subhas mukhopadhya who died long before 2010,and mn saha who gave the birth of modern astrophysics died in 1956(first nobel in astro came in 1967.)the undivided bengal(i.e west bengal of india and bangladesh togeather is associated with 8 nobel prze=two all time great like jc bose and sn bose.this was the city which was asia’s largest and second largest of british empire has produced countless number of intellectuals during 19th and early half of 20th century.
-known as bengali reniassance.the legendry oscar winning director satyajit roy,multiple grammy winner ravishankar(TO whom beatles and specially george harrison learnt sitar.)the greatest structural engineer of 20th century-fazlur khan,currrent days jayed karim all are part of bengal province.
so if u don’t have iota of knowledge about calcutta or bengal,please shut ur mouth and dont write another crap like that-because u need to cure ur fucking knowledge.


199326

Posted by James on Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:36 | #

Both Indians and Chinese do extremely well economically outside their home countries”

Yes, they do extremely well when they get to invade and take over jobs created by WHITES but when it comes to doing well INSIDE their own countries, they don’t do too well.

Any bank robber can ‘do well’ if there’s a pile of $ waiting to be grabbed. But to create that success from scratch on their own - well that they’re not so good at.

Without the jobs of western white industry, Indians and Chinese would still be sitting in the mud puddle.

Don’t mistake simply taking over what others have created as “being successful”.


199327

Posted by yo on Fri, 04 Nov 2011 03:01 | #

well in india u can see 70 percent of them dont go to school and learn somewhat education, if u go to the areas where people are well off and study then u ll find out they re the smartest around. peace also in china communism is making everyone go to school and therefore kids are getting to know a lot more then poor democratic indian kids. If you look in history india has invented so much that greek and china are like students for india. no disrespect but u go search about indians. Also in chinese bcuz they look not so good they sudy hard to show they r smart , indians have a good culture of partying and good looking people so people are democratic thinkers.


199328

Posted by Lurker on Fri, 04 Nov 2011 05:56 | #

If you look in history india has invented so much that greek and china are like students for india.

Why dont you provide us with a list?


199329

Posted by oberver on Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:03 | #

This whole india /china iq debate might have a bigger impact in future-but for now what i have seen in average china will probably beat india(if i take the whole country average).But in this part of the world(more appropriately south east asia)what i have seen the bengal(which was undivided tiil british raj) has produced best scientist,literature,reformer,philosopher etc.the city calcutta/kolkata as i have seen produced two of best scientist from entire east-sn.bose and jc.bose.plus this city had won in four different category as asia’s first nobel prize,and has more nobel ,oscar,grammy than any other city from asia.japan’s tokyo will be off course in very same league.but calcutta won it’s first nobel prize in 1902 where japan won in 1949.now in short span bangladesh has produced engineer fazlur khan,economist nobel prize winner md.yunus)plus grat director satyajit roy(oscar winner),ravishankar(who had a great impact on beatles) were also from this region.what i have seen the entire republic of china and entire india(excluding bengal and it’s capital kolkata)havenot produced these many luminaries.the pan average iq of bangladeshi will be in probably less than 90 and for bengal in india(mostly hindu dominated) will have an average of100+-and most importantly their origination is from mongoloid or indo/indo-european race.so why this particular ethnic have progressed that much while othe big cities from south or east asia(except japan)hadnot been able to do the same?


199330

Posted by To Observer and Sampan on Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:54 | #

I am a Bengali myself , but I hate the Bengali arrogance.
Bengal is going downhill because of this arrogance.
We still haven’t produced an Anand in chess.
Anand is still alive.
All our Boses and Satyajit Rays are dead.
I see myself as an Indian first.

But in any case, since I will mention a few names from Bengal that hasn’t been mentioned.
One is A.P.C.Roy. Who was recently honoured by the Royal Society of Science. THE FIRST PERSON OUTSIDE EUROPE to get that honour.
Another is magician P.C. Sorcar(junior). His father was also the Father of (modern) Indian magic. And the son is also one of world’s leading magicians. He can make anything disappear. He already vanished the Taj Mahal, moving trains, flying planes. I bet he can make this racist blog disappear as well!

Anyway, the MAIN MAN behind Google’s really fast searching is an INDIAN.
here: watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&feature=relmfu&v=tuRYbBvOMRo
At around 37:15 , I think, he mentions a name Sanjay. Sanjay is 100% Indian.
Eerily enough, the other professor- professor John looks a lot like one of my relatives.

And I agree with the guy called Racism is stupid. It really is stupid!


199331

Posted by To Sampan and Observer on Wed, 09 Nov 2011 18:24 | #

Oh I forgot to mention another name:
P.C.Mahalnobish . The great statistician and mathematician who founded Indian Statistical Institute.


199332

Posted by Heads on Wed, 09 Nov 2011 18:33 | #

This is about the “big brains” of Chinese.
Just compare the brains of Killer whales.
Killer whales have brains so big, that an entire Chinese HEAD will fit in!


199333

Posted by observer on Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:02 | #

@to sampan and observer.
it’s not about pride dude-for people like u we are going downhill-i tell u the unsung story of another hero.in 2010 nobel prize in medicine were given to cambridge scientist edwards who along with stetope created first test tube baby of the world in 1978.since stetope died in 1988 only edwards won nobel prize-at the same time dr subhas mukherjee of calcutta using some minimum apparatus and a refrigerator in his won flat created world’s second test tube baby(67 days after edwards and stetope did).but his technique was even more sophiticated and more credit goes to him because without using any lab or good facility he performed it.but thank’s to his peers and bengal goverment he couldnot show his research to the world and finally had to commit suicide.but after his death he got recgnization and medical dictionary of world’s greatest 1100 researcher’s lfigured him with 2 other calcuttan-sir ronald ross and sir upendranath bramhachari.so what is the moral of the story-it’s people like you(just was in case subhas mukherjee’s so called “peers”) we are declining.another genuine nobel miss.but don’t worry there are manilal bhowmick or ashok sen-they still might not get it-since nobel is not given for inventions in these days in physics-but there are lot’s of name i can tell u who are still alive-you tube co founder jawed karim,father of sound system amar bose etc.

what those fuckin rest of indian have really done-oh yeah chineese also hadnot done much.but they will do in next few decades-but i don’t think indian going to catch up with the chineese any way-because the attitude they show in us and off course arrogance(without really doing much)-it certainly not gonna help the country anyway-remember this.


199334

Posted by kdon27 on Fri, 11 Nov 2011 00:48 | #

There is much to be said about social intelligence - academia can only go so far in strengthening one’s position in what we currently view as “human life”. However, for the human *race* to advance as a whole and achieve Type 1 civilisation, the emphasis should be shifted slightly to understanding our place in the world and indeed the universe. Our existence is futile, the billions of stars are a testament to that. But our ability to survive and our unwavering dedication to explore and achieve can outlive the universe. In other words, we should be focused on improving ourselves as a species rather than widening the rift between races and causing division, a path that will only end in chaos and eventual death of our species.

“We have the ability to reach the Type 1 civilisation and once we do so, the universe is a stone’s throw away. The danger zone is the chaotic imbalance between a Type 0 civilisation (what we are) and a Type 1 civilisation (what we aspire to me)”.


199335

Posted by To observer and Sampan on Fri, 11 Nov 2011 01:31 | #

@observer
Don’t get me wrong, I am a proud Bengali myself and that’s the reason why I mentioned a few bengali names myself in my last 2 posts. However, that doesn’t mean that we can trash rest of India. Be a proud Indian too, not just a proud Bengali.

Ashok Sen is the string theorist, isn’t it? Well, String theorists realistically don’t have any chance of winning the Nobel.

what those fuckin rest of indian have really done

It’s these kinds of comments that I hate.
The rest of India has done plenty , especially the southern state of Tamil Nadu.
The west and north also have a decent amount of contribution for a third world country.


Bengal isn’t going downhill because of people like me, but because of those people who refuse to work hard because they think they have “bengali genes”. Genes matter very little.

To give you an example, let’s take football.
Even in the late 1970s we were beating countries like Japan or Qatar by HUGE margins.
Where is Japan now? #1 in Asia! Hell, where is Qatar? They can beat us 4-0!
Why so much improvement? Because they have planned, they have experimented and they have worked hard. We, on the other hand, we have become lazy.


199336

Posted by observer on Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:45 | #

@posted by observer and sampan
lot better reply from u-a very intellectual one.but still i will defy u in some aspects
first of all if a string theorist discover a particle faster than light(although neutrino is already doing) say trachyon he will not only win nobel but will get immortal status.
next ramanujan is one of my favourite.chandrasekhar and ramakrishnan have won nobel with us nationality-raman won from iacs calcutta with indian nationality.so yeas,tamil brahmin are good-jc bose,sn bose didnot win it-but will anybody even in dream put raman or chandrasekhar above boses-sn bose comes as one of all time great in various rankings including famous physicist lev landau’s list where he was jointly 3rd with all father’s of quantum mechanics.and about jc bose we can ask any people from science community with proper knowledge-so forget about jc bose getting one,producing another jc bose indeed is rather difficult.“it’s invention that is more important to human civilization than the inventor.“the man who could utter this-do u find any peer of such noble man?only tesla can be compared as he tored apart the huge contract of weistinghouse as they said that ur ac current isnot gonna see the daylight.
well comeback to the point of being indian-u might have seen in this forum an aryan(north indian) was advertising how great jc bose,sn bose,ramanujan are.first 2 are bengali and third one tamil.the same north indian guys who love to hate bengalis.and south indian-they hate anyone outside south.and u saw how that aryan guy(came with the name indian’s are smart)was destroyed by europeans/americans.
so do u want to say i integrate myself with those people-loud, uncouth with no manners ?
it’s a pity that from a country of 1.2 billion all the luminaries had come from one single city or a particular ethnic group bengali.if other’s would have contributed that way we would have become a first world’s nation today.so if u want to perish by calling themselves as ur brother or so u can,but i am a bengali first,a true kolkatan and then a global citizen.
and more thing-the bengal renaissance occured during colonial british period.we simply just did fine with british people but since then we bengalis have adapted the culture of those culture less north/west/south indian-and that is the biggest reason of our downfall.get rid of those scums and we will prosper again and along with tokyo,kyoto kolkata will be the best city from east.


199337

Posted by To observer and sampan on Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:08 | #

@observer
I can understand some of your concerns, since I am also a Bengali. Calcutta is now full of non-bengalis(mostly Biharis and Marwaris), I guess at least 20% will be non-bengalis, may be more. And some of these non-bengali immigrants are often disrespectful and act as if Bengal belongs to them. I am guessing that this is a big reason for your concern, and perhaps rightly so. And I think it is indeed possible that this has partly been responsible for the declining of the Bengali intellectual culture. However, this can’t explain everything, and there are certainly other more important factors as to why we aren’t producing more geniuses. I believe that the arrogance of “I have Bengali genes” is certainly one.

But beyond this, I can’t really agree with you much.
You are merely generalizing too much . And to say that India as a whole doesn’t have any decent culture outside Bengal is ridiculous.  And let me remind you that being first world does not automatically mean having a good culture.

Sure, our Indian cultures aren’t always perfect, but if you are saying that a culture from a 1st world country is automatically better, I disagree. I can create a wall of text to write down their many defects, but I will state only one. Apparently, in several studies from USA and Australia it has been found that more than 15% of married men in those countries are not the biological fathers of their child and they are not even aware of it. I had to really recheck the figures again and again. No, it wasn’t 0.15% , but 15%(25% in some studies).
So, I can have all sorts of economic luxuries, but what does it mean in the end if I can’t have the guarantee to pass my genes or know who my child is? (As for the eastern 1st worlds, do you know that many of them eat anything that moves? Dogs, cats, snakes, octopuses - anything! )
Compared to that, I feel that most Indian cultures - which are merely variations of the typical Hindu culture - are often much better.

And I find it funny that you attack the same two guys (likely north indians) who complemented you for being a Bengali. I haven’t read those posts in details, but it seems to me that the hate is more from your side than their side. You have just assumed that they all hate you without any proof. I hate to hate people for no good reason.
__________________________________________________________________________
I hate arguing, so I will come back to give one more Bengali name which wasn’t mentioned much - MEGHNAD SAHA.
Without some of his contributions the progress of the entire astrophysics will become paralyzed.

Many top physicists believed that his work his work was worth a Nobel prize. And in fact, it did indirectly lead to some Nobel prizes.

About Ashok Sen, the reason why string theorists don’t get the Nobel prize is because there is no known way to test the theory experimentally. Remember, Einstein didn’t get a Nobel for relativity (he got it for photoelectric effect), Eddington did.


199338

Posted by observer on Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:45 | #

@to observer and sampan
first of all where did i say that western culture is best and apart from bengali’s rest of indian are all goof.what i meant to say is that just like people from japan or china we bengali’s are also humble,reserve unlike rest of indian.first of all this is not a racist blog at all.not everyone is racist-when everyone is bashing the indian ,that certainly means we have some problem.so rather than being trapped in false sense of patriotism try to accept the fact.along with greece india made the biggest contribution in human civilization till 7th-8th ad.but then one after one outside attack had broken the base of the country.it will take a towering effort from everybody to reach even in a decent position.but instesd of doing so most of us are showing our arrogance hoe great we were and how other’s took all the resource from us.now indan are using the resource of europe and america and that is called as life cycle-after 100 years another global power will come-may be it will china or strong european union or may be muslim power.everything goes in a cycle,it reaches up and up and then goes down.same has happened with us.but we need enterprising,creative people with full of energy like swami vivekananda.i am quite sure that man have harvested gold in any field he would have choosen-be it philosophy,literature,science or even sports.so instead of bragging those ancient past,or crying we will have to look for future.
secondly,those north indian guy didnot praise bengalis but he was advertising how great his countrymen were.but that same guy back in home will bash on us.
thirdly,mn saha didnot win although he was nominated 4 times.but he didnot have much international support-only arthur holly compton outside india nominated him twice-even cv raman didnot nominate him although he had 3 opportunities.and the first nobel came in astrophysics in the year 1967.saha died in 1956-so again little bad luck.
finally, i am not a student in field of string theory and many people even call it shit.regarding thsi i was going through some of leonard suuskind’s concern(one of maker of string theory).but surely any pathbreaking experimental result might bring a nobel prize.
that’s it.probably i am done with u.and don’t think that i love everything of west.for example i don’t give a damn to their excessively open minded culture or their crap southing rock songs.i always try to to take the best from everybody.that’s why as much as i love tagore’s song i also love beatles,beethoven or mozart.


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Posted by To observer and sampan on Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:22 | #

@ observer

Well, I think at this point we have converged a bit with our opinions. And I too like Beethoven, Mozart and Beatles. So, I agree that there are many good things in the west. (And “west” itself can be divided into many subcultures - all very different). I also many times like chinese traditional music and arts.
There are goods and bads in every culture and any well-intentioned progressive minded person will try to take the goods while staying away from the bads.

But I will explain two areas where we differ in opinions. Firstly, I will explain why I am being patriotic. Secondly, I will explain why I think this board is racist.


1) I took the time to read many of the posts in this blog.
I agree with you that many Indians in this blog have been big-mouthed and arrogant.
But I am surprised that you could only see the Indian arrogance. The anti-Indian sentiment expressed here, mostly by english speaking whites and chinese, is often far worse than anything the Indians have expressed to defend themselves.
And many of the claims from these anti-Indians reminded me of the old Indian proverb “Cows can climb trees in stories”.
And have you read today’s newspaper? What they did to former president Kalam in an U.S airport, does that show humility or arrogance?

You said that Chinese are so humble. May be so, but most Chinese in this blog certainly aren’t.
And just look at some of those Chinese posts. A few of them cleverly tried to take credit for Japanese nobel prizes and achievements by merging the two nations under the heading “east asian”. That’s about the same as a Srilankan trying to take credit for Pakistani Nobel prize winner Abdus Salam by merging them under the heading “south asian”. But we never do that, do we?
I was reading many posts in this blog. And here is what I found :
1> First, a north Indian came in and called southern dravidians “lowly”.
2> Then, a south Indian came in and called ” southern brahmins” are the smartest. And claimed that south Indians have higher IQs than north Indians.
3> Then, apparently someone outside India called Bengalis smart and a south Indian jumped in and claimed it to be a “myth”.
4> Then a Bengali said that Calcutta is the best city, better than “all of China”.

And these kinds of posts annoy me. Because this is fighting racist attacks by diverting the attacks onto another group.“we are innocent, they are the culprits” attitude.
There is nothing to be ashamed of in admitting that we are all Indians. And there is nothing to be ashamed of in admitting that we Indians are not always perfect. Nobody is perfect, but we can all improve.
For starters, we can try to increase the education rate.
Tamil Nadu and Kerala already has about 100% literacy rate. Most other states are far behind.

Someone named Graham pointed out that “homogenous populations” do better than “diverse populations”. May be so, may be not, but I will argue that “diversity” is only in the mind. If we want to improve our nation, then firstly we have to think ourselves as one group -Indians - not “western Brahman”. And secondly, we have to forget the past glories and move towards a desirable future with full energy- just like what you said about Swami Vivekananda.

I think there is hope, because some of the most anti-racist and progressive comments here also came from Indians.

2)However, we definitely interpret this blog and its intentions and its commenting people’s intentions differently. 
To me, anyone who tries to use Rushton’s(or Lynn’s) arguments as a basis loses some credibility for being neutral/ non-racist.

Rushton is not a well respected scientist. Only in the realms of pseudoscience and racist propaganda is Rushton a well respected charlatan. He talks about genes and biology when he in fact is neither a geneticist nor a qualified biologist, not to mention he has been debunked by various professionals in the field. The only ones who drool when they hear Rushton speak are hereditarians, who need mediocre biology in order to sustain their pathetic claims of racial superiority of one group.

The original article started with somewhat curious standpoint. And blamed lack of education - which I can agree with. But then it ended on a racist note , saying things like “I suspect that the negritos may be the culprit”. What does that mean?
And if you look at all the articles and links in this board, it becomes obvious. This board assumes the existence of biological race as a FACT and routinely talks about superiority and inferiority of groups in various aspects. To me this kind of premeditated hatred is far more racist than calling someone “nigger” out of temporary anger (because “nigger” can be easily canceled out by inventing a demeaning word for the other race). Shouldn’t a non-racist be looking for individual merits? This kind of elitism is something that any wise individual will dislike.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f61KMw5zVhg

I will ask something similar to what he asked - “What’s wrong with other people?”. It’s the individual qualities that matter. And as long as someone is respectful, humble and progressive why do I have to reject or hate someone simply on the basis of that person’s origin?


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Posted by observer on Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:38 | #

A coin has two sides-head and tail.
in head side i can put the names of-Christ,Aristotole,Da vinchi,king Ashoka,Alexander,many literary genius,many legends in field of art,science and business.on the other hand the tail side will contain people like osama bin laden ,Christian popes who put Gallileo in the cell ,and off course those who put an end to Christ’s live.

if we go through the world history it mesmerizes us the fight between good and evil.wheather it’s between God and the Satan and people like Eve tries to taste the bad fruit-and from then it gets…

no human race in the world is perfect-only God and Demon can be perfect.we do good things,do bad things,we give our lives for others,and the same human who takes millions of lives within a minute.when everybody will be perfect,on that day human Civilization will come to an end.that’s why in Mahabharatha,after the end of war the Pandava’s couldnot reach in the path of immortality-only Yudisthir with the God(yes the God is so kind to every creatures of the earth that he doesnot hesitate to come as a ‘dog’).

oh!Already i have written lots of bullshit today-sorry,but can’t help!!!sudden awakening of some spiritual emancipation.

but i guess u have got the answer of first two and half paragraph of your last post.

back to business-the south indian guy who attacked ashok(probably bangladeshi) as calling him a mythslater is just another mongrel-that jerk doesnot have any idea about jc bose or sn bose.john bardeen won 2 nobel in physics,einstein didnot won more than one(that also not for special theory of relativity)and nikola tesla who deserved atleast half a dozen nobel prizes didnot win because of his feud with edison.richard feynman called nobel a pain in the neck.both bose won their biggest award when they invented and discovered-yes that’s the biggest award for any scientist which jc bose said.but iknow those dumb tamil guy hasnot got that sort of intelligence to understand this fact.secondly,sampan sais calcutta had produced more luminaries than entire china-and what is the problem to accept this truth.i as a calcuttan can proudly say we have produced better talent than many of so called first world’s city.i think only british people those who have knowledge about indian sub continent will also agree with me.but rest of the world doesnot know much about it.

thirdly,kerala has 93% literacy,tamilnadu has 82% literacy-but two of india’s most backward state mizoram which has 90% literacy,and himachal has 83% literacy(all according to 2011 stat’s).so what the hell literacy percentage really say?even all muslim arabian country has above 80% literacy-what is their input to current world?

and i don’t know much about ruston,but hopefully from next time onward if any iq list come from india-i want to see it in race wise,i.e-like iq of assamesse,bengali,bihari,tamil,punjabi etc.because india is a mixture of various countries.

i think what jeff mentioned about indian brahmin and jewish american perfectly depicts the whole situation-the brahmin has an iq of 115-120 which is even higher than jewish.but unfortunately the neglected lower cast people and muslim’s who is almost about 80% of india’s population is the reason of average iq of 86.

visit steve sailer’s blog of indian iq.

and yes-people of china love to hide behind the tag as east asian.but so is the case with third category and even second category european countries who love to hide as european instead of stating their nationality-but a british,german,french,or russian will never do this.because of this first category european countries all europe get a good name- how many jewels turkey,portugal,spain or norway had produced.

and finally regarding all racist comment-i guess i have already given the answer in the beginning of my reply today.

finally,i must say it’s been an awesome pleasure to talk with u through this lifeless machine over past week-and remember one think we bengali love this sort of intellectual discussion-so i will not tag it as an argument.

and most importantly all the replies i had given assuming u as my friend-i don’t know ur status and may be u r older than my father.so with all those replies if i had insulted u by any means please forgive me-because i am still in my early 20’s.

GOOD BYE.


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Posted by ani on Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:53 | #

well im an indian and i dont know what is my IQ level…

all i know 85% of indian population are struggling for 3 basic needs..FOOD, CLOTHS AND SHELTER..

so expecting high IQ level from them is nothing but a dumb idea…

Chinese claim they has high IQ level…but they made empty multi storied buildings in Beijing just to show their bright image to the world in Olympics…for that so many poor lost their home and kicked out from Beijing….if this is the outcome of high IQ then its good to have low IQ..

Brit Americans also have high IQ…good for them…they need it for OIL, DIVIDE n RULE and using 3RD WORLD human resource (read : poverty) for their growth..

a big fact is a 10 yrs old Indian boy posses more iq than a 30 yrs old american…(call center fact n i worked there)..

IQ is nothing but man made some questions and procedure to determine the brain’s working…and if u want ur brain working good then u need good bank balance, good food, good cloths, good home, good education….85% of Indian population don’t have that….so i am ok with low IQ level of INDIAN POPULATION..

after 200 yrs of british rule in 64 yrs (after independence) we made such a progress in economy as a whole, according to the economists (usa economists) India will overcome USA in 25-30 yrs in GDP…and usa economy is stuck now…its going down and down…

the thing is there are lots of things that makes a country…not IQ….

AND as a whole INDIA is INCREDIBLE….those who doubt it..come n visit INDIA…spend 2 months travelling different parts of india…u ll love n admire INDIA along with its low IQ…:)


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Posted by To observer and sampan on Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:31 | #

Haha, don’t worry, I am the same age as you. Sorry if I sounded all intellectual and intimidated you.
And don’t worry, I am not offended by any of your comments, I too see it as a friendly discussion.

I was a bit surprised with those literacy stats. I was sure I heard somewhere that the two southern states have close to 100% literacy rate. But I guess it wasn’t a very reliable source.

But it still doesn’t change my opinion about education, because quality of education matters much more than number of people being educated. Bengal and Tamil Nadu have two of the oldest and most well established education systems. That’s partly thanks to the fact that Calcutta was the capital of British colony and similarly Tamil Nadu was for a period the French colony. And that did help in our success.


I have already stated that I am a proud bengali. But still, you and I obviously think differently. I just don’t think that it is a graceful act to put down other groups of people simply on the basis of their origin.
For example, Norway has produced Magnus Carlsen, Spain has Picasso, Portugal has Eusebio and I am sure Turks and Arabs have some amount of contribution as well.(Steve Job’s Father was muslim, if i recall) How much do we even know about these countries? To a large extent, we english speaking Indians see the world through American and British eyes/media, which can’t always be trusted.
Of course, you are right that France, England, Germany or Russia has produced far more scientifically. But that’s not the point.

Success and failure depends on a lot of factors. Have you read “outliers” by Malcolm Gladwell? Read it!
And the importance and mutability of IQ is a highly debatable issue. There was a good link provided by this guy called “racism is stupid”. Also read “mismeasure of man”. Another person was mentioning this book called “Genius Explained”. I plan on reading it as well.


I am sure you will find many well-informed British people who have very high opinions about Bengalis, or for that matter, about Indians in general. And I am also certain that there are British people who don’t see us as anything more than “those damn Indians”. It is no secret how many of those British generals who ruled here thought very lowly about the the entire Indian subcontinent.
There are all sorts of people everywhere. It’s pointless to generalize.

So, think about that Feynman video that I posted - what Feynman said about Honors and uniforms.
If you respect or disrespect someone purely on the basis of his “race”, then you are merely honouring an uniform (and that uniform is race), you are not honouring someone for something that they did individually.

(On a side note, I was a always a big fan of Tintin in Bangla. I grew up reading tintin comics and Bengalis in general like him. Today, I saw this bengali magazine which has Tintin wearing dhuti-panjabi on the cover. I couldn’t help but think that this is how we our Bengali culture knows how make good things from outside their own. After all, we Bengalis have the same spirit of adventure that he has.)

Anyway, it was nice talking with you.


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Posted by observer on Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:48 | #

@sampan and observer
There is no need to be an aged person to be sound more intellectual-trust me,a ten year old boy can more than two of us,and there are many 69 year old men who don’t know even 1% what we know.
next ,regarding those 3rd rated european country,i want to say that i talked about only academia.if you bring sports then we have dhyanchand,leander paes(who had made most winning record in davis cup),in both men and women category first person from asia to swim across english channel and many more-brojen das,arati saha etc and offcourse many othjer great like milkha sing.
thirdly,i did not differentiated according to race- what i tried to mean is that if we get data from different race in india,then it will be possible for us that who are lacking and why-then according to result we would be able to to workout the problems.it’s always better to to work on our weak point rather than working only on strong areas.
finally regarding those british what i have seen,in most cases the upper authority realised the problem and tried to do something,but it was always the people as middlemen did all sort of bloody discrimination-lord rayleigh understood the value of jc.bose’s work,whereas the presidency college principal made all discriminations against him.


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Posted by To observer on Fri, 18 Nov 2011 03:10 | #

You are right about the capacity of a 10 year old. I thought I somehow gave you the impression of being a 60 year old.

Anyway, I wans’t talking about just sports. Picasso is not a sports-person. Art requires intellect. So does chess.
Norway has also produced Niels Henrik Abel. Ever heard of him? His work was of phenomenal importance in mathematics. Sadly, he died at the age of only 26.
Spain is better known for art than science, but still had some contribution in science/math -for example there is a thing called “catalan numbers”(Catalunya is in Spain).
I don’t know much about portugal, but I don’t know portugese to know enough.
Besides, I doubt too many non-English speaker (like spanish or portugese) will come here to boast about “white superiority” in English.
Like I said, there are all kinds of people everywhere, do not generalize.

And that’s not even the point.
Historically, you will find that different groups of people were at the top of advancement at different periods. So, it makes no sense to look down upon others. For example, before renaissance, when Europe was still in dark-ages, middle eastern people were among the most advanced.


If you look at the Bengali greats, you will not find many who had a separation mentality.
Netaji Subhas wanted to create “azad hind fauj” and to shift the capital to Delhi.
Swami Vivakananda always said about how tolerance is a great virtue.
Gurudev Rabindranath , who is the only person who has written and composed the National anthem for two different countries, has written about both India and Bengal.
Bankim Chandra wrote “bande ma taram” with India in mind.
Do you know how Hindi became the national language of India? There was a vote, and there was a tie between Hindi and Bengali. The final vote was given by a Bengali, and he voted for Hindi!

As for weaknesses, I think we should look at our own weaknesses first. If we want to improve, we should be our best critic. The weaknesses we should be looking for are weaknesses in methods, not who are weak groups of people.

Also, I will be dropping sampan . I read some of his posts. I was inititally annoyed by his boasting, but he never really seriously insulted anyone.
I also read the posts by indians are smart that you mentioned. I totally disliked his boasting and was disgusted by his attacks at other groups. However, I did not see him get “destroyed”. It was like 5 vs 1, and those 5 were not any better than him, and he still had the final words and made some valid points (as well as some invalid points).  For example, he questioned the “aryan invasion theory” and I also have doubts about it.
The supporters of that theory could not say anything beyond pointing to higher castes having genes closer to Europeans. But that can be easily explained by the “out of africa theory”, which is the most widely accepted theory in the scientific community and “racism is stupid” listed some documentaries. According to that theory, India was originally populated by 2 different waves of migration. The first was the aborigines that populated australia,japan, south-east asia and also left small traces in India. The second was a large wave of migration that came from central asia around modern kyrgystan . From there, different groups left in different directions(europe, russia,india,china,america) at different times . One of those groups arrived in India. So this can explain the gene diversity. Of course, a lot of other invasions occured much later, but the “aryan” invasion is still very questionable. The later invaders might have just selected the higher castes already in place to mate with. (And even if “aryans” did “invade”, which I really doubt, there is no evidence that they ever “left India for Europe”. It is well known that people existed in northern Europe at the same time and they were not nearly as advanced). The aryan invasion theory was cooked up much earlier when one could not do large scale genetic studies to get a picture of the migration.

 


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Posted by Banana on Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:04 | #

As a first-time reader of this thread, I have to say there are some superbly insightful posts here amid a sea of complete tosh. Many of the posts comparing China and India seem to focus on the current situation: China’s rise and India’s stagnation as the West declines.

It’s worth pointing out, I think, that there’s no indication that India will ever be anything more that it currently is. It’s completely irrelevant in the modern world, and it’s hard to see any relevance for India even within the next century. Put bluntly, if India disappeared from the face of the Earth at midnight tonight, hardly anyone would notice and even fewer would care.

China, on the other hand, has in 20 years made itself a kingpin of the world economy. What’s interesting is that there seems to be nothing to restrain this growth. China is just so good at everything that there’s little reason for India or other Asian nations to even bother tooling up to compete. China’s technological prowess has advanced at such a breakneck speed that it is now capable of space research and aeronautical engineering. Airbus already has a plant in China and Boeing is likely to follow suite.  With the transfer of technology that will take place, Chinese domestic manufacturers will emerge in a position to compete with the “big two.” In other words, you’re going to flying on Chinese-made jets pretty soon.

The Chinese have earned respect from the West for their transition from “international basket case” just 100 years ago to the economic and technological superpower that it is today. The question is: what has India been doing all this time?

Everything that India aspires to do, the Chinese have already done it. There just isn’t any need for another major player in world affairs. That means that if India ever decides that it doesn’t want to be an international basket case, then it’s going to have to do it alone. Sorry guys, you missed the bus.


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Posted by observer(TOOK LOTS OF HELP FROM POST OF SAMPAN) on Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:12 | #

@To sampan and observer

well!final post from me.finally both of us are agreeing in most of the facts-it wasnot the case when we started.

regarding abel-i can say just because there is an award in his name doesnot put him in the class of eulear,gauss,newton,leibnitz or ramanujan.

it is worldwide known fact today that real genius is born in field of creative and artistic field and in literature-not in science.in england there was a say if Shakespeare   would have wanted to become Newton he could have,but if Newton would have wanted to become Shakespeare,he could not have made it.

rabindranath tagore apart from two national song also wrote the lyrics of srilankan national anthem nama nama matha,which was translated to their language.

regarding national language,most of us don’t know that india don’t have any national language.i also knew it was hindi,but a tamil guy once rectified me,and later checked it-he was right-hindi and english are our official language.

now the most important point-I THINK THE TIME HAS COME FOR ME TAKE BACK MY OWN WORDS.I SAID PEOPLE FROM CHINA ARE HUMBLE_NO THEY ARE NOT!!!

actually most of the post in this blog has come from very ordinary with least amount of knowledge.

ONE OF THE BIGGEST NERD WAS C.M AND NOW IN THE ABOVE POST_DUDE JUST LIKE INDIA IF CHINA IS BEING DESTROYED TODAY NOBODY WILL FEEL YOUR PRESENCE APART FROM OLYMPIC.

finally going to the point which SAMPAN STATED THAT CITY CALCUTTA WILL SINGLE HANDEDLY BEAT ENTIRE CHINA_THAT CITY HAS PRODUCED FOUR NOBEL AS ASIA"S FIRST AND MANY NOBEL PRIZE WINNING WORKS IN MEDICINE(ALL FROM ENTIRE ASIA WHICH SAMPAN MENTIONED)PHYSICS AND OFF COURSE ONE OF GREATEST INVENTION OF ALL TIME BY SIR J.C BOSE.CHINA HAD NOT PRODUCED A SINGLE NOBEL APART FROM PEACE WORKING IN CHINA.

SO ALL YOU CHINESE BAD ASS WHO ARE BOASTING HOW MANY FIELD MEDAL OR DUMB MEDAL YOU HAVE WON I TELL YOU WHAT-THE CITY CALCUTTA IS BETTER THAN YOUR ENTIRE FUCKIN CHINA.

and please don’t think that people of west love you-in us most of the students tell that in paper based subject test of gre /sat-u guys do cheating.and if you go through the comments from people of west in this blog-you will find it.

 


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Posted by To observer on Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:13 | #

Well, if that was your final post, then I guess there is no point in continuing the discussion. And in that case this will be my final post as well. Anyway, I am glad you and I agreed on most issues.

I will still say a couple of things-

I don’t know how to measure the class of a mathematician, but Abel’s work really was of phenomenal importance. He opened the pathway to what is known as abstract algebra. And before him there was a blind search for quintic(5th degree) equations for centuries and no one could make a dent on this very important problem. Abel was the first person to show that you can’t solve the quintic using “normal” ways.
It’s funny that another founder of abstract algebra - Galois - also died at mere 20.

Nope, I am pretty sure Hindi IS the national language because I have read it in books published by the National Council of Education, as well as reading it in GK books. The constitution of India in 1950 originally stated hindi as THE “official language”.

English was much later added as a “subsidiary official language” precisely because a large number of Tamil and and also many Telugu speakers failed to accept Hindi as the official language. So, what the Tamil dude told you is hardly surprising.


Anyway, it was nice talking with you. Bye!


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Posted by To observer on Fri, 18 Nov 2011 21:29 | #

OK, I just realized that you were talking about the “national language” and not “official language” which I always thought could be used interchangeably.
The tale about voting that I said was related to the selection of official language.


Anyway just look at former Soviet Union and how their economy has gone downhill since they got divided.
Like they say, ” the whole is greater than the sum of its parts” and “united we stand, divided we fall”.
Instead of petty fights within ourselves, we should become united.


Once again, Bye!


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Posted by Sunny on Mon, 21 Nov 2011 08:52 | #

The following is all just hypothesis from what I gathered so far.

I think, as it relates to the concentrating of intelligence in the higher Hindu castes, the idea of an Ashkenazi-esque late IQ boom would do well in explaining the evolutionary transcendence of the upper Brahmin class (given that I doubt any group of any class entering India had IQ levels so high!), but I also feel this transcendence also evolved by a selection bias towards the genes of certain groups that proved to be better fit in India’ environment (ie, preference for the appearance of the lighter invaders). This explains the historic racism - in a way, it had to do with ancient Indian’s seeing the coincidental intelligence (along with other advantageous traits) and light skin/caucasoid appearance of their invaders and concluding that whiteness brings better luck (when it was really other traits that brought the invaders’ success). But, I also feel that lighter skin and a more Caucasoid appearance was to be favored regardless by the mechanism of sexual selection - its just that what I stated in the last sentence probably intensified this selection.

My point - So you see, I just don’t trust views of the caste system being primarily a racist motive - I feel it was the first successful eugenics project, that had the primary objective of preserving and promoting the more advantageous genes in the very uneven gene pool present in India from some ancient time/event (uneven due to the sudden emergence of populations that had met after thousands of years of separate evolutionary pathways coming out of Africa or wherever).

Like any form of artificial selection, these selection mechanisms weren’t perfect, nor do I think the attempt at eugenics was deliberate - but I will say there must have been some subconsciously felt crisis of losing the evolutionary advantages that some groups possessed, which prodded these groups to save their traits by some means. Normally this is done by killing and exterminating the enemy, but in this rare instance, it was done by tolerating the enemy as long as a social setting could be created where this enemy couldn’t damage the dominant social groups gene pool.

Here’s how all this relates to the paradox of Southern India having a higher IQ: India’s social strategy of isolating and concentrating favored genes into higher castes meant that, to some extent, darker skin in potential mates COULD have been overlooked and tolerated in the interest of inculcating other, more important premium traits that some darker individuals offered, eg, intelligence, vitality, and so forth (in their breeding methods, ie, arranged marriage). In other words, classic India could have relaxed racial intermixing taboos when the tradeoff was worth enduring for other premium traits (and obviously racial taboos WERE broken, which figures why no caucasion subclass remains in India). We can all imagine the most important premium traits generally had to do with superior wit.

So, moving along to the point - Why believe this? What does this explain? A lot. This explains why South Indian upper caste Brahmins have higher IQ’s than the ones in North India. Its possible that North India had a mean higher avg. gene pool (from outside invaders) to begin with, but South Indians may have had a more successful caste system that took its relatively lower IQ gene pool (in the beginning) and more efficiently packed the better part of that gene pool into its elite castes.

So we have two simultaneous evolutionary mechanisms occurring throughout India hitherto: one to North India’s greater advantage (better genetic pool w/regard to IQ conducive traits), and the other to South India’s (better genetic selection though out of a poorer gene pool). I suppose contemporary IQ results show that the mechanism dominating South India won out on the whole, explaining the higher IQ of their Brahmin class. What explains South India’s darker skinned Brahmins? The darker skin of Southern Indians Brahmins seems to be a remnant of the fact that it had fewer of the “high IQ” Caucasion invaders in the beginning (compared to their Northern counterparts). However, these South Indian Brahmins were probably better able to extract the best genes out of this group and proliferate them by…...I suppose a marriage system that is/was very cerebral selective (and I mean just as well with the indigenous population (thus it was perhaps a geekier culture, ie, “please marry with my daughter, o nerdy high caste one. In addition to her melodious voice and fine cooking skills, my lower so and so caste daughter is also nerdy and can keep up with your wits”)).

Incredible. The ancient Indians were so brilliant. You may call them cruel, but I believe the founders of their culture could have been 1000x worse if they wished. In those days, anywhere on civilized earth, living a complete, dignified, happy life was probably a rare luxury. 

Again, note this is all just a hypothesis and I am not an academic expert on any subject. This view just made so much sense to me, and I’ve had this in minds for years - so I had to speak out.


199350

Posted by Blues on Wed, 23 Nov 2011 00:26 | #

Wow, a lot of comments about the Indian “caste system”.

It’s funny that so many westerners talk about Indian “caste system”. I have lived in INDIA my entire life and I have NEVER seen anyone being discriminated or bad-mouthed because of his or her caste. I never even thought that it was such a big issue until I started reading the comments here.

For example, there is no such word equivalent of “nigger” or “monkey” in India to refer to lower castes.
Sure, there may be a few upper caste people who privately believe that they are “superior”, and certain religious practices are caste-specific, but that’s about it.

It’s like people are looking for an excuse - “Look how evil those Indians are-  they have a caste system!”. LOL!


199351

Posted by Republicrat on Wed, 23 Nov 2011 02:25 | #

What a load of crap, Blues. Calling somebody an ‘untouchable’ in India is equivalent to calling somebody a ‘nigger’ here. I can tell you from personal experience that Indians do not take being called an untouchable very lightly.


199352

Posted by ex-uh on Wed, 23 Nov 2011 12:40 | #

No high-caste Hindu calls any low-caste Hindu “untouchable”.

They call them:

Dalit
Mleccha
Kala / Kali (nigger)
Sudra
Namasudra

I have lived in INDIA my entire life and I have NEVER seen anyone being discriminated or bad-mouthed because of his or her caste.

Because it works so smoothly.

 


199353

Posted by Bliss on Wed, 23 Nov 2011 22:30 | #

No high-caste Hindu calls any low-caste Hindu “untouchable”.

They call them:

Mleccha
Kala / Kali (nigger)

Actually it’s the people living to the west of India such as afghans, Persians, Greeks etc who were called mlecchas or barbarians by the Hindu Brahmins. Even the punjabis at one time were called mlecchas. It has nothing to do with caste.

Also the Brahmins themselves are what would be considered “niggers” in the west. And they created their gods and goddesses in their own image: the black goddess Kali and the black god Krishna


199354

Posted by Bliss on Wed, 23 Nov 2011 22:35 | #

I have lived in INDIA my entire life and I have NEVER seen anyone being discriminated or bad-mouthed because of his or her caste.

You are obviously a shameless and stupid liar. In other words a typical Hindu.

Stupid because anyone can google and find out the truth…


199355

Posted by Bliss on Wed, 23 Nov 2011 22:48 | #

The ancient Indians were so brilliant.

So says the black south Indian Brahmin smile

Yes it was so brilliant of the brahmins to conceive of the ridiculous caste system, the cruel and indefensible animal and human sacrifices of the Vedas, the burning alive of widows, temple prostitution, child marriage, and numerous other evil practices and silly superstitions.


199356

Posted by Bliss on Wed, 23 Nov 2011 23:12 | #

i as a calcuttan can proudly say we have produced better talent than many of so called first world’s city…..but rest of the world doesnot know much about it.

Another irrational low IQ deluded Hindu. The world knows that your Calcutta is synonymous with shithole. You should be ashamed to be from such a horrible place. The Bengalis are probably the poorest, most malnourished people on the planet. It must have taken a shit load of “talented” calcuttans to achieve that. And even your educated compatriots think it makes sense to sacrifice goats to the black goddess Kali. If the British hadn’t banned it you would still be sacrificing humans to Kali! And burning your widows alive!

All the Bengalis you keep boasting of were educated by the British. What have you done since your masters abandoned you?


199357

Posted by jacob on Wed, 23 Nov 2011 23:35 | #

IQ tests, test intellectual conformity, not creativity and originality. This would explain the Asian high IQ’s. They as a people are the ultimate conformists.

In IQ tests there is typically only one answer to the problem. That problem being a social conformity to reason. But everyone knows that Genius’s and all of the greatest developments in the world are not the product of conformity. Conformity never breeds creativity. We can see this in the lack of influence the Asian population has had on Science. China used to be called the “sick man” of Asia. Their population is massive and their contribution to innovation is almost nil. We can see this lack of originality in their adoptation of European philosophies, I.e. Communism.

Friedrich Nietzsche and other Philosophers have critized Asians. Nietsche used the words “Pallid osification” to describe Orientals.

Pallid: lacking sparkle or liveliness.

Osification: The process of becoming set and inflexible in behavior, attitudes, and actions. Inflexible conformity, rigid unthinking acceptance of social conventions.

The reality is Asian people have yet to understand that laws and rules are arbitrary. Europeans make the rules and Asian’s follow them.

It also doesn’t make sense that Asian’s are considered smart because of the fact that they have destroyed their own countries. This is due to over-population and their basic lack of enviromental understanding.

It is also common scientific fact that women who have many children are ignorant, and those who have less children are more intelligent. This has already been proven in studies. So it seems strange to say that Asians are smart when the obviousness of their backwards countries, and medieval lifestyle makes them contrary to that premise.

Europeans have the most advanced civilizations and every other race has yet to meet these levels other than the Japanese. The Japanese only being good at copying other people’s inventions and making them better. Other than that their original creativity is lacking as well. They took American cars and made them better. They took the German camera and made it better. And they took German steel and made it better. Otherwise the greatest advances still come from Europeans and Jews. Other than that the Orientals have yet to produce an Einstein or a Thomas Edison.

When it comes to Black people. It makes sense that they have low intellectual comformity, I.e. IQ tests. They are far too creative to be trapped in this unoriginal form of conditioning. You can tell their creative capacity in their athletics, music, dance, and the way they talk. They by far exceed the Asiatic races in these areas. Being better singers, musicians ect. Blacks far exceed Asians in emotive expression. In all of North America there is only one or two famous high-paid Asian actors.


199358

Posted by debutant on Thu, 24 Nov 2011 18:14 | #

@bliss
Another irrational low iq deluded hindu
seems like u r just another bloody muslim or a poor christian with single digit iq-it was rammohan roy-the father of modern india who stopped sati-the process of throwing widows into fire and another named as vidyasagar who started women’s education in india and also started widow marriage in india.and all boses,ramanujan,raman,chandrasekhar did their work without the help of any british-and in last 30 years mother teressa,amartya sen,md.yunus,dr subhas mukherjee rose when their were no brtish.but as i said a dickhead rascal with single digit iq doesnot know anything about this.
and finally it’s not the bengalis that are poor in calcutta-it’s because of the migrant from up,bihar and muslims who give calcutta the bad name-may be u belong to that category.


199359

Posted by observer on Thu, 24 Nov 2011 18:44 | #

@bliss

well well well-look this mongrel bliss had again made a comeback in this blog.i went through ur comments from earlier posting-and realised just like that c.m idiot(may be he is ur dear one),ur another fool chinese living in calcutta-who even after mixing with intellectual bengalis,can’t speak a single sentence in english.already debutant had given u the answer-i promised that i will not post again-but considering ur sadistic condition-i tell u that my iq is not low-it’s more than every goofy dumb chinese or vietnamese living in calcutta-dude 6 years ago when i tested,it was 173-and for shake of ur information-i can solve arithmatic problems which an average brain takes atleast 5 minutes,within 30 seconds even without calculator-but i did not go any stupid math contest like imo-and for shake of ur information i am right now a physics doctorate student in one of the ivy league university in us.

and for last time i will again remind all chinese jerk in this blog-that the city calcutta is enough to beat ur entire fuckin china or vietnam.


199360

Posted by observer on Thu, 24 Nov 2011 19:50 | #

@debutant
friend,this bastard bliss is not from india-so don’t say he is from bihar or up-this donkey is probably a pakistani-and u know this so called camel and goat muslim pakistani love to hate hindu,india and off course bengalis-and u also know that this basterd’s are biggest friend of china-that’s why he was boasting how many field or dumb medal the chinese had won-otherwise it will be a chinese or vietnamese who had lived in india.
@bliss
if u r from pakistan then the entire world knows about u.and if ur a chinese-then i had already given reply for all u dick heads.

regarding giving goat to god-well although it’s an obsolete custom today,but still better than eating snakes or cockroach.or lot better than killing millions of people which u muslim terrorist do all over the world.

but irrespective of a pakistani goat or a chinese u r-the fact of the matter remain same-that calcutta is better than both those shithole called pakistan or relatively better china.and remember hindu bengalis are way more richer compared to average per capita income of the country-it’s migrant from backward non bengali states like up,bihar-who costitute nearly 48% population of calcutta make the city filthy and dirty(amongst which 30 percent muslim goat are there).

and bengali hindu’s have more high iq than any other ethnic in south asia or compared to chinese.


199361

Posted by Bliss on Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:10 | #

i tell u that my iq is not low….. 6 years ago when i tested,it was 173-and for shake of ur information-i can solve arithmatic problems which an average brain takes atleast 5 minutes,within 30 seconds even without calculator-but i did not go any stupid math contest like imo-and for shake of ur information i am right now a physics doctorate student in one of the ivy league university in us.

Thanks for the laugh. A doctorate student in an Ivy League college indeed smile

You come across as a stupid, shameless, mentally unbalanced, pathologically deluded liar whose IQ cannot possibly be even half of what you claim. So pathetic, and so typical of Hindu Internet warriors. Now go sacrifice a goat to Kali, genius, and rub it’s blood on your forehead as your superior bengali hindu culture demands. smile


199362

Posted by Bliss on Fri, 25 Nov 2011 17:14 | #

it was rammohan roy-the father of modern india who stopped sati-the process of throwing widows into fire

Liar. He had no authority to ban that evil brahminical practice. Thank the enlightened British rulers for forcing an end to that ancient Hindu tradition…..over the very passionate objections of the orthodox Brahmins of Calcutta who even sent a delegation all the way to England to try to stop this “interference in our religious customs”! In brahminism killing widows is apparently a religious duty!  Some Orthodox Hindus have been trying to revive this heinous “religious custom” in British-free India. There is only word to describe a religion that kills innocent, helpless women, teaches human and animal sacrifice in it’s most sacred scripture, degrades 20% of it’s adherents as untouchables and another 60% as servants by birth, and other wickedness. That word is: EVIL.

Rammohan Roy had come under the influence of British Christians and tried to reform Hinduism: he rejected the polytheism, casteism, idol worship, child marriage, widow burning etc of orthodox brahminism and started his own sect the Brahmo Samaj which soon gave up trying to reform Hinduism and rejected it entirely by rejecting the Vedas. It is officially recognized as a distinct religion and has very few adherents.


all boses,ramanujan,raman,chandrasekhar did their work without the help of any british

Liar. All of the above were educated during British rule, in the English language, in schools or colleges founded by the British government or by Christian missionaries.

And FYI, Mother Teresa was a catholic from Albania not a Bengali. Sen, Yunus, Mukherjee were all educated in schools founded by the British.


199363

Posted by Bliss on Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:07 | #

he questioned the “aryan invasion theory” and I also have doubts about it.
The supporters of that theory could not say anything beyond pointing to higher castes having genes closer to Europeans.

Actually the jatts of Punjab have the highest proportion of euro genes and they belong to the lowest caste: sudras. Check out the Harappa Project site.

The Bengali and Tamil Brahmins who are the biggest braggarts among the Hindus also happen to be among the darkest skinned of their caste, which makes sense considering their geographical location.


199364

Posted by observer on Sat, 26 Nov 2011 13:57 | #

hey look,this bloody bastard BLISS is getting even more arrogant
@bliss
hey u son of a prostitute,u r the biggest bloody lier-hindu school was established by rammohan roy,hare school-by david hare,ramtanu lahiri and rammohan roy.yes during early period of bengal reniassance this upper caste hindu bengalis and brtish(also jesuit fatheers like eugene lafont contributed)had a cognitive understanding between themselves-that’s why later even mahatma gandhi blamed rammohan roy for being excessively english lover.so u see there were more than 80% bengali input and rest were by british,jesuit and people like derozio.
now a nerd like u have claimed here they all studied in british established school-amartya sen studied in visva bharati university school in shantiniketan founded by bengali polymath,mystic first non european literature nobel laureate rabindranath tagore.so was the case with mukherjee,ashok sen,manilal bhowmik-they all studied in school established by bengalis.
now i have already cured ur fuckin knowledge about bengal-so u phony little nerd chinese don’t come to fight with us bengali-2 million hindu bengali are quite enough to beat ur entire fuckin china-because jc bose was,is and forever will be a better engineer than every chinese engineer ever existed-go and read the IEEE publication of 1998-oh sorry-u stupid nerd chinese can’t speak or read english-sorry i forgot it.satyendra bose was a better physicist than every chinese physicist(if their existed any). go and read various ranking list(including the famous made by lev landau-where he placed satyendra bose at 3rd place with 1 point along with all fathers of quantum mechanics).and bose-einstein condensate is so far the best discovery in physics in last 2 decade.
oh sorry again!!!-a son of a prostitute with single digit iq doesnot have iota of knowledge regarding this.but if anyone slightly more educated in ur family may understand-so i am giving this link regarding bose condensate-youtube video by michio kaku.
and as a matter of fact unlike rest of the indian we bengali people appreciate british for few good things they have done apart from many bad things-and i also mentioned in one of my previous post that the many in top authrity tried ti do some good things-but it was those middlemen who made all sort of discrimination-like lord william bentink,lord ripon even lord dallhousi did many good things-and british people are not the problem-problem is u dick head moron!!!

and i have no interest to talk anymore with a ruined,irrational creature like u-but i will give u some source from where u can know more about hindu bengali-an autobiogarphy of unknown indian written by bengali nirad.c.chaudhuri which was forwarded by current gurdian journalist ian jack-go and read that book if u really can read english-or even better u can personally contact ian jack to know more about it-because he was a bbc correspondent in sub continent.

already i have proved u a lier in every aspect-except one thing that u have said correctly-mother teresa was not a ethnic bengali-but she came in calcutta,adapted bengali culture,spoke that language and in her lifetime she herself told manytimes that without the help of people of bengal she could not do anything.that’s the speciality of bengal-apart form geek like u,everybody who comes in bengal become a bengali-infact calcutta’s first nobel prize winner sir ronald ross had two bengali research assistant.
and so far u have not revealed ur identity-u r such a coward-but a intellectual bengali iq had already identified u

U HAVE NOT ONLY LIED ABOUT BENGALI<HINDU OR INDIA<U HAVE EVEN LIED ABOUT WHITE PEOPLE-IN UR POST NO 477 U HAVE SAID FAT AMERICAN AND WHITE GO FOR EAST ASIAN GIRLS_SORRY<THAT IS ANOTHER BIG LIE_I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY WHITE GUY IN STREET OR IN UNIVERSITY GOING WITH UR FUCKIN EAST ASIAN GIRLS.SIMILARLY U HAVE LIED ABOUT THEM IN POST 476 ALSO.SO IT SEEMS LIKE U R THE BIGGEST FOOL AND ALSO A LIER IN THE ENTIRE BLOG.

AND U SAID OUR MASTER HAD LEFT US_WELL UNLIKE U STUPID JERK WE BENGALI PEOPLE DON"T NEED MASTER_WE DO OUR WORK IN CALCUTTA_NOT IN EUROPE OR AMERICA AND STILL WE PRODUCE TAGORE,JC BOSE,SATYENDRA BOSE,SATYAJIT ROY,RAVISHANKAR AND IN US JHUMPA LAHIRI(THE YOUNGEST PULITZER WINNER,SIDDDHARTA MuKHERJEE),AMAR BOSE,FAZLUR KHAN AND COUNTLESS OTHERS.U FUCKIN CHINESE EVEN AFTER GOING IN US OR EUROPE CAN"T PRODUCE ONE PERCENT OF US-AND IT"S A DAMN REAL TRUTH-SO AGAIN I WILL TELL U THAT HINDU BENGALIS AND CHRISTIAN ANGLOPHILIC SOCIETY IN CALCUTTA IS HELL LOT BETTER THAN ALL U GOAT.

AND REGARDING MY IQ_WELL I CANNOT PROVE IT THROUGH COMPUTER BUT THOSE WHO HAVE READ MY POSTS AND HAVE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT SCIENCE WILL UNDERSTAND WHERE I AM_AND THOSE WHO HAD GONE THROUGH UR POSTS WILL UNDERSTAND U R JUST A BOORISH SINGLE DIGIT IQ GUY.

and don’t give me anymore biased stupid reply-i have already lost enough time in morning today-and i don’t want to talk with a real jerk like u.and by the way when i said ur comments regarding boses to other students-even they laughed.


199365

Posted by observer on Sat, 26 Nov 2011 14:22 | #

in the above post one sentence which i wrote but seems incomplete
U HAVE NOT ONLY LIED ABOUT BENGALI<HINDUISM AND INDIA U HAVE ALSO LIED ABOUT WHITE PEOPLE AND INSULTED THEM IN UR POST (POST NO 476 AND 477).U HAVE CLAIMED THAT FAT WHITE MEN GO FOR EAST ASIAN WOMEN_IT"S ANOTHER BIG JOKE_I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY WHITE OR INDIAN GOING WITH UR FUCKIN EAST ASIAN GIRLS

AND BENGALI PEOPLE ARE NOT BLACK LIKE TAMIL_WE ARE MIXED HYBRID OF INDO_EUROPEAN AND MONGOLOID_DRAVIDIAN-DRAVIDIAN RACE WILL MAKE UR COLOR DARKISH_BUT I AM A BENGALI BRAHMIN WITH FAIR COMPLEXION.

AND IF UR A MUSLIM GOAT(EITHER PAKISTANI OR LIVING IN INDIA)WHICH HAS MORE PROBABILITY THAN A CHINESE_THEN IT’S HIGH TIME THAT ALL RELIGION(EXCEPT UR SUPPORTER CHINESE)TO PUT HANDS TOGETHER TO DESTROY ALL TERRORIST FROM THIS PLANET.AND IN ORDER TO DO SO WE WILL HAVE TO ETHNICALLY DESTROY ALL MUSLIMS FROM THIS PLANET_BECAUSE 99.9% OF THEM ARE MUSLIM.


199366

Posted by observer on Sat, 26 Nov 2011 14:39 | #

OHHO!!!

THIS BASTARD BLISS IN HIS POST NO 476 AND IN 477 HAD LIED ABOUT WHITE PEOPLE ALSO.U HAVE SAID THAT FAT WHITE PEOPLE GO FOR EAST ASIAN GIRL!!ANOTHER BIG JOKE_I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY WHITE GOING FOR THOSE STUPID EAST ASIAN GIRLS.AND IN POST 476 U HAVE SAID HOW IMPORTANT BLACKS ARE IN AMERICAN SOCIETY>HERE U R COMMENTING BADLY ABOUT BLACK INDIAN AND THERE U R COMMENTING IN FAVOR OF BLACK AMERICAN>

PEOPLE BE AWARE FROM THIS DOUBLE FACED SON OF PROSTITUTE AND THE LIER_NO BODY SO FAR HAD RECOGNISED U BUT I, 173 IQ GUY HOW EASILY GOT RID OF THIS SCUM-PEOPLE BE AWARE FROM THIS TERRORIST MUSLIM.


199367

Posted by Bliss on Sat, 26 Nov 2011 15:14 | #

AND BENGALI PEOPLE ARE NOT BLACK LIKE TAMIL

Then why was the Bengali section of Calcutta called Black Town by the British while the European section was called White Town?

Here is an European’s description of Calcutta from more than 2 centuries ago with numerous portraits. He described the Bengalis as being as dark as Africans (caffries) and painted them as such. Enjoy:

http://www.laits.utexas.edu/solvyns-project/hardgraveportrait.html


The rest of your delirious post is filled with the usual stupid lies and BS. Most of you Brahmin internet warriors are really screwed up in the head to the point of insanity. I doubt there is a more dishonest, deceitful, jealous, boastful and shameless group of people than you guys.

Absolutely disgusting.

 

 


199368

Posted by Bliss on Sat, 26 Nov 2011 15:52 | #

And here are some photographs of modern day Calcutta decades after the bengalis’ masters, the British, left them to their fate. Looks like hell on earth:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=calcutta+poverty&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=13423l16023l1l17970l8l4l0l0l0l0l2765l3412l5-1.9-1l2l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1024&bih=660&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

 


199369

Posted by observer on Sat, 26 Nov 2011 17:14 | #

SO FINALLY U PAKISTANI TERRORIST ACCEPT ALL I SAID ABOUT U_THAT’S THE MAGIC OF 173+ IQ BENGALI.

PEOPLE NOTE(TO ALL EUROPEAN ,AMERICAN<INDIAN OR EVEN CHINESE)PAKISTANI MUSLIM GOAT CAME INTO THE BLOG BOASTING FOR CHINESE AND EAST ASIAN AND SHOWED HATRED TOWARDS HINDU INDIAN>THEN THIS BASTARD BOASTED FOR BLACK AMERICAN AND ASSAULTED WHITE PEOPLE.THEN THIS BASTARD PAKISTANI GOAT ASSAULTED BENGALI AND HINDU AND CAME WITH THE IDENTITY AS BRITISH/CHRISTIAN.AGAIN TRIED TO MAKE ALL OF US FOOL.AND EVEN NOW TRYING TO DIVERT ATTENTION BY MAKING DISCRIMINATION BETWEEN BRITISH AND BENGALI HINDUS ETC,ETC…SO WE ALL INDIAN,BRITISH,AMERICAN ,CHINESE FIGHT AMONGST EACH OTHER.AND THIS BASTARD SON OF MUHAMMAD(AS I ALREADY SAID ALL GOAT AND CAMEL)WILL CONQUER US.
WELL AS LONG AS 173+ IQ PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE HERE IN THIS WORLD U STUPID PAKISTANI GOAT WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING.
AND LISTEN ONE THING_ALL BRITISH,AMERICAN,CHINESE,BLACK OR WHITE ARE MY BROTHER_EXCEPT U MOTHERFUCKER MUSLIM_CARRYING THE GENE OF MUHAMMAD AND TERRORISM.

AS I SAID IN MY PREVIOUS POST_IT"S HIGH TIME FOR EVERY RELIGION TO DESTROY TERRORISM AND TO DESTROY ISLAM FOREVER FROM THIS PLANET_U GUYS KILL ALL PEOPLE IRRESPECTIVE OF HINDU,CHRISTIAN,JEWISH,BLACK,WHITE-NOW IT’S BACKLASH TIME_WE WILL UNITE TO DESTROY ALL U TRIBAL MUSLIM TERRORIST FOREVER.
@to all American
THIS FUTURE OSAMA BIN LADEN IS HIDING IN YOUR COUNTRY AND ANY DAY THIS BASTARD WILL DESTROY YOUR COUNTRY_DON"T BELIEVE THEM EVEN IT"S STUDYING IN HARVARD OR MIT_BECAUSE LADEN WAS ALSO A FINE ENGINEER.

AND HEY U SON OF PROSTITUTE_U QUESTIONED MY IQ_SEE HOW A BENGALI HINDU WITH 173+ IQ UNITED EVERYBODY AGAINST THAT SHIT HOLE RELIGION U CALL ISLAM.AND AS LONG AS PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE HERE<U SON’s OF MUHAMMAD WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING.


199370

Posted by observer on Sat, 26 Nov 2011 17:45 | #

AND U ARE SHOWING THE YOU TUBE VIDEO OF CALCUTTA_HEY FOOL IT WAS A BRITISH WHO FIRST CALLED CALCUTTA THE VENICE OF EAST AND WHEN BRITISH CAME U MUSLIM GOATS WERE ALSO THERE_BUT ONLY HINDU BENGALIS REACHED THE PINNACLE.AND ALREADY I HAVE SAID 2 MILLION HINDU BENGALI IN CALCUTTA HAD PRODUCED BETTER TALENT IN EVERY FIELD THAN UR 2 BILLION MUSLIM GOATS AROUND THE WORLD.AND I ALSO SAID RIGHT NOW THERE ARE 30% MUSLIM GOATS in CALCUTTA_MOST OF WHOM ARE SLUM DWELLERS GIVING THE BAD NAME TO CALCUTTA_BUT STILL IT’S WAY BETTER THAN ANY CITY OF UR TERRORISTAN WHICH U CALL PAKISTAN-AND WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN CALCUTTA U PIG WORSHIPERS WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO IN NEXT 1000 YEARS.

AND IN ABOVE BLOG U CAME AS AN EAST ASIAN,BOASTED FOR THEM AND MADE SOME DEROGATORY REMARKS ABOUT INDIA AND HINDUISM_THEN U ASSAULTED WHITES<PRAISED BLACK<THEN U CAME AS A BRITISH AND AGAIN LIED ABOUT EVERYTHING_DON"T TRY TO HIDE INSIDE A CAMOUFLAGE_MORE U WILL DO IT_MORE EASIER WILL BECOME FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME TO DESTROY U.UR MISSION WAS TO CREATE FIGHT AMONGST EVERYBODY AND THEN GET RID OF ALL OF US-SORRY THAT’S NOT GONNA HAPPEN!


199371

Posted by observer on Sat, 26 Nov 2011 19:49 | #

@ pakistani goat bliss

hey u have shown the pictures of poverty in calcutta.well those place are not in mainstream of city-and in those slums there are mostly north indian muslim goats living who actually belongs to same ethnic of pakistani muslim dogs.
now real calcutta-indian museam,national library,science city,victoria memorial hall,world’s second largest stadium-saltlake stadium-one of world’s biggest calcutta book fair and countless others which are even best in asia-and apart from victoria memorial hall none of those had been made by british.

and picture of poverty is rare apart from tribal and muslim goats populated states in west bengal.
and our darjeeling is famous for 5 best thing in the world-it’s tea,orange,mountaineering center,queen of hills,and world highest hill station ghoom.

now when i googled picture of poverty in calcutta ,i did not find anything,but when i googled slums in pakistan i found all these things-enjoy!
ultimate tragedy of poverty in pakistan-news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8775926.stm
also-newshopper.sulekha.com/pakistan-poverty_photo_488717.htm
google pakistan slums picture.

and regarding those picture of calcutta,atleast we had home and civilization and education u muslim dogs were living in jungle at that time-that’s why u guys are so barbaric.example-mir nisar ali,even jinha’s forefather lived in jungle.


199372

Posted by Leon Haller on Sun, 27 Nov 2011 01:08 | #

This is certainly the thread which never dies.

I wonder about this:

As a very criterion-oriented psychometrician

And note that verbal ability is the core element in IQ.  If you want a quick index of IQ, vocabulary size is the best available shortcut measure.(jonjayray)

Was the author of this now ancient post actually a psychometrician? And is it agreed that verbal ability is the core element of IQ? I would have thought math ability, but I’d be interested in hearing an explanation of this assertion.


199373

Posted by Blues on Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:20 | #

Oh and about sati, I am pretty sure that a large part of those “horror stories” are blatant lies. Muslims hate hindus and that’s why they love to believe and spread those stories.
No where in hindu religion is it said that a widow needs to be murdered. Some rare widow murders probably did happen though and those were stopped by the likes of RajaRamMohan. But for the most part, sati is plain lie and was also used as a tool by the brits to divide and conquer.


Child marriages did happen though -considering anything below 18 is considered child. But I know plenty of old women who married in their teens and absolutely none of them think that their marriage was “cruel” and they are still living happily in their old age.


199374

Posted by Blues on Mon, 28 Nov 2011 18:17 | #

Whatever happened to my first post(originally#574)? It was here just 15 minutes ago!
I will try to retype it from memory.

You are obviously a shameless and stupid liar. In other words a typical Hindu.

Stupid because anyone can google and find out the truth

Ah! You Googled it! So that explains it.
People who have actually lived in India will agree with me.

In all my life I have NEVER seen anyone in India calling another person “untouchable” or staying away from that person. I don’t know what it was like in the distant past, but I certainly haven’t seen anything in my lifetime. And in all likelihood those are exaggerated stories from specific places in the past.

One thing you CAN find in India is a very dark-complexioned guy being called “kallu” by his pals/friends, which basically translates to “blackie” or “darkie”. And this dark complexioned guy will not get offended by it precisely because in India dark complexion is not associated with inferiority.

Not only does “kallu” not have 1% of maliciousness/hatred of “nigger”, it also does not have anything to do with castes. In India there are plenty of relatively dark skinned Brahmins/Brahmans.


199375

Posted by James on Wed, 30 Nov 2011 11:45 | #

@blues

You are partly right about sati.
The definition of Sati is not a widow who is murdered, but a widow who Voluntarily/Willingly sacrifices herself to accompany her husband to the “next world” to show her love. For example, there is the story of Sati Savitri. You need to have a really strong belief in the next world to do that.
In other words, it is the women who commit sati. It’s suicide rather than murder. Although there is a belief that some of these women were really forced to commit sati.

More importantly, Sati has never been a universal practice in India. It was only observed among a small number of specific groups in India. And even in communities where sati existed, not all women did it. Those who did were given high honour. And very often a woman who declared that she wanted to commit sati would have to prove her resolution before she is allowed.

Also, Sati is by no means a “hindu” specific custom. Similar events have been reported among ancient greeks,  egyptians , scythians, goths etc.
Women and servants of the high and ruling class from these places were often sacrificed so that they can follow their husband and master respectively to the next world.
Even in ancient China too, survivors were buried with kings or great warlords, together with horses, offerings, and artifacts

One popular theory is that sati came to India through scythian invaders.


I don’t think the reports of Sati are just muslims and brits hating hindus. There IS probably an element of truth in it.
However, whatever amount of sati that existed was likely more a product of ignorance(belief in next world/after-life) and superstition, rather than evil.


199376

Posted by Some facts about IQ on Thu, 01 Dec 2011 16:56 | #

Perhaps some of you will be interested in knowing some funny facts about IQ.

1>Alfred Binet, the original inventor of IQ test, devised it to filter out the children who are having slow or retarded development, so that they can be given special care and attention. He believed that his test will be of no use in identifying any special innate individual ability.

2>Garry Kasparov’s IQ is estimated by expert psychologists to be at 195 because he is widely regarded as the greatest chess player in history. A few years ago, an actual IQ test was arranged for Kasparov by the german newspaper Der Spiegel with the help of many expert psychologists. The actual IQ came out to be 135, a good 60 points less than the expert estimation.

3> Marilyn vos savant had a measured IQ of 228 as 10 year old. Her IQ dropped to 186 when measured as an adult. A difference of almost 20%.

4>Bill sidis had a childhood IQ estimated between 250 and 300. His father believed IQ is a meaningless concept. His father intentionally tried to create a genius and was successful.

5> In 1973-74, a study in Zaire (Chess and Aptitudes) by Dr. Albert Frank showed that introducing chess to teenage players increased their IQ. These players that were taught an additional 2 hours of chess instead of mathematics had stronger spatial, numerical, administrative-directional, and paperwork abilities than the group that did not get introduced to chess.

6>From 1979 to 1984, a Venezuela experiment, Learning to Think Project, tested whether chess could develop intelligence of 4,266 elementary age children as measured by the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children. The children showed an increase in IQ after less than one year of studying chess in a systematic way. The Venezuelan government was so impressed that all Venezuelan schools introduced chess lessons in 1988.

7> Although identical twins tend to have remarkably similar IQs even when raised apart, the average being 6 points apart, there has been several recorded cases where their IQs were at least 20-25 points apart.

 

 


199377

Posted by The_Observer on Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:24 | #

Just in are the results for the 2011 Siemens Foundation Competition in Math, Science & Technology for high school students in the USA.
See: 

http://www.siemens-foundation.org/en/competition/2011_winners.htm

You will notice that most of the young winners are descendants of Chinese or Korean immigrants.


199378

Posted by Tenzin on Fri, 23 Dec 2011 20:20 | #

Since this is a site comparing Indian and Chinese IQ, here is a very interesting article:

What about the rest of China?


199379

Posted by martin_uk on Sat, 24 Dec 2011 01:24 | #

The Chinese are very pleased and proud of the fact that they will most likely lead the world in science and technology in the twenty first century, but the poor deluded fools will be LIGHT YEARS BEHIND the West when it comes to Diversity Studies and White Privilege Studies.


199380

Posted by higgs boson on Sun, 25 Dec 2011 04:05 | #

Remember together we stand and divide we fall

are you kid in?with whom you want to stay-those people who always bash against you in india.now i am not a bengali but anglo living in kolkata.the city had been destroyed by non bengali migrant,some of the most dumbest people in this planet with iq less than african black.it is true calcutta had produced more luminaries than most of first world city.but if you stay with those filthy indian who loves to hate bengali,british-people who created modern india,then in future your calcutta will be destroyrd.the best way to get rid of this is to make an independent country for hindu bengali people.

now see some of blog created by your so called indian-why west bengal looks like urinal(topix forum)by some bloody nonsense.
and more thing that bengali are originally generated from mongoloid race but then laregely mixed with others-probably that is the reason it is way more ahed than rest of india.
but no doubt apart from calcutta rest of india is complete shit hole.


199381

Posted by INDIAN EMPIRE on Thu, 29 Dec 2011 17:38 | #

INDIAN TRIBES MIGRATED OUT OF INDIA IN SEVERAL WAVES, EAST AND WEST OF INDIA, INTO CENTRAL ASIA AND EUROPE AND INTO TIBET AND CHINA ITSELF. INDIAN GENOME IS THE MOST DIVERSE IN THE WORLD, SECOND TO AFRICANS, THE DEPTH OF DIVERSITY IN THE INDIAN RACE MEANS IT IS FAR OLDER THAN BOTH THE EAST ASIAN/CHINESE AND CENTRAL ASIANS/EUROPEANS. INDIAN CIVILIZATION SPREAD EAST AND WEST OF INDIA. AND NOW AFTER 500YEARS OF WAR AND OCCUPATION OF INDIA BY EUROPEAN AND ARABS, THE TRUTH IS COMING OUT! THESE SO CALLED I.Q TEST ARE WHOLLY FLAWED. INDIAN HAVE BEEN OPPRESSED FOR OVER 500YEARS AND THESE TEST ARE NO INDICATION OF THE WEALTH OF INDIANS, INTELLECTUALLY AND MATERIALISTICALLY. CHINA IS A DICTATORSHIP AND THEREFORE HAVE CENTRALIZED AND CLOSED ITSELF FROM THE OUTSIDE WORLD UNTIL NOW,  INDIAN POLITICS AND COLONIAL INTERFERENCE STILL LINGERS IN INDIA WHICH HAS FALTERED AND HALTED THE PROGRESSION OF INDIA, BUT INDIA WILL RISE AND ITS INEVITABLE. AND INDIANS ARE ONE RACE, ONE GENOME, CASTE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGON OTHER THAN A SOCIAL OCCUPATIONAL STRUCTURE DEVELOPED OVER 10,OOOYEARS, PREDATING ANY RELIGON. ARYAN INVASION HAS BEEN COMPLETELY REFUTED. IT WAS AN INDIAN MIGRATION INTO EUROPE.


‘’ M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan invasion’ of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe.”

-Stephen Oppenheimer


_____________________________________________________________________________


Researchers in England have finally settled the centuries-old debate over who gets credit for the creation of calculus.

For years, English scientist Isaac Newton and German philosopher Gottfried Leibniz both claimed credit for inventing the mathematical system sometime around the end of the seventeenth century.

Now, a team from the universities of Manchester and Exeter says it knows where the true credit lies — and it’s with someone else completely.

The “Kerala school,” a little-known group of scholars and mathematicians in fourteenth century India, identified the “infinite series” — one of the basic components of calculus — around 1350.

____________________________________________________________________________________


Baudhāyana who discovered the Pythagoras theorem, several hundred years before any Greek. Baudhāyana listed Pythagoras theorem in his book called Baudhāyana Śulbasûtra (800 BCE). Incidentally, Baudhāyana Śulbasûtra is also one of the oldest books on advanced Mathematics. The actual shloka (verse) in Baudhāyana Śulbasûtra that describes Pythagoras theorem is given below -

dīrghasyākṣaṇayā rajjuH pārśvamānī, tiryaDaM mānī, cha yatpṛthagbhUte kurutastadubhayāṅ karoti.

____________________________________________________________________________________

EAST ASIAN RACE HAS ITS ROOTS IN THE INDIAN AUSTRO-ASIATIC TRIBES OF INDIA.

Researchers found that the Indian populations had more genetic diversity than Europeans and East Asians, which gives a good indicator of the age of a population” Genographic project IBM 2011.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/7/47/figure/F1?highres=y

To sum up we conclude that, because of its very high frequency and diversity, haplogroup O-M95 had an in-situ origin among the Indian Austro-Asiatics, particularly among the Mundaris, not in Southeast Asia as envisaged earlier.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

A recent study of DNA of Zebu by Chen (2009) has shown that Bos indicus or Zebu had beendomesticated only in India, and not at any other place, ruling out all skepticism in thematter, and proving that it was only after full domestication in India, that Zebu migrated toother parts of the world.Zebu cows have a prominent presence in China and Africa.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally upper and lower castes and tribal groups.

“The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society.”

“Impossible to distinguish between castes and tribes since their genetics proved they were not different.”

-”Reconstructing Indian Population History”
- David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price & Lalji Singh
- 2009

____________________

In Vizagapatam, Brahmins and Vaishyas together accounted for 47% of the students, Shudras comprised 21% and the other castes (scheduled) were 20%; the remaining 12% were Muslims. In Tinnevelly, Brahmins were 21.8% of the total number of students, Shudras were 31.2% and other castes 38.4% (by no means a low figure). In South Arcot, Shudras and other castes together comprised more than 84% of the students!

In the realm of higher education as well, there were regional variations. Brahmins appear to have dominated in the Andhra and Tamil Nadu regions, but in the Malabar area, theology and law were Brahmin preserves, but astronomy and medicine were dominated by Shudras and other castes. Thus, of a total of 808 students in astronomy, only 78 were Brahmins, while 195 were Shudras and 510 belonged to the other castes (scheduled). In medicine, out of a total of 194 students, only 31 were Brahmins, 59 were Shudras and 100 belonged to the other castes. Even subjects like metaphysics and ethics that we generally associate with Brahmin supremacy, were dominated by the other castes (62) as opposed to merely 56 Brahmin students. It bears mentioning that this higher education was in the form of private tuition (or education at home), and to that extent also reflects the near equal economic power of the concerned groups.

As a concerned reader informed me, the ‘Survey of Indigenous Education in the Province of Bombay (1820-1830)’ showed that Brahmins were only 30% of the total students there. What is more, when William Adam surveyed Bengal and Bihar, he found that Brahmins and Kayasthas together comprised less than 40% of the total students, and that forty castes like Tanti, Teli, Napit, Sadgop, Tamli etc. were well represented in the student body. The Adam report mentions that in Burdwan district, while native schools had 674 students from the lowest thirty castes, the 13 missionary schools in the district together had only 86 students from those castes. Coming to teachers, Kayasthas triumphed with about 50% of the jobs and there were only six Chandal teachers; but Rajputs, Kshatriyas and Chattris (Khatris) together had only five teachers.


____________________________________________________


India had the world’s largest economy from the first to eleventh century, and in the eighteenth century, with a (32.9%) share of world GDP in the first century to (28.9%) in 1000 AD, from the eleventh century to the 1600 the Islamic Invasion of India took place, by 1700 AD with (24.4%).-  A Study of Groninen University, reveals that India’s share of the world income went from 24.4% in 1700, to a low of 3.8% in 1952, at the end of the British Empire

>>>>>THIS IS WHY INDIA IS CURRENTLY POOR, THE CHRISTIANS AND THE MUSLIMS LOOTED INDIA INTO POVERTY WHILE ENRICHING THEMSELVES. CHINA DID NOT WITNESS THE DEEP PENETRATION INTO CHINA AS INDIA WITNESSED, MUCH WEALTH, KNOWLEDGE WAS LOST, DESTROYED AND HIDDEN, ONLY NOW ARE WE KNOWING THE TRUTH.

>>>>>INDIAN TRIBES MIGRATED OUT OF INDIA, WEST AND EAST, INTO CENTRAL ASIA, NORTH AFRICA, AND EUROPE, AND EASTWARDS TOWARDS INDO-CHINA.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Sahoo et al had actually written the following words:“The perennial concept of people, language, and agriculture arriving to India together through thenorthwest corridor does not hold up to close scrutiny.Recent claims for a linkage of haplogroups J2, L, R1a,and R2 with a contemporaneous origin for the majority of the Indian castes’ paternal lineages from outside the subcontinent are REJECTED, although our findings do support a local origin of haplogroups F* and H.” .They also rule out arrivals from Southwest Asia because West Asian haplogroups (like Y-Hg G) are not found in India.

_________

Kivisild’s findings (2003) too had shown that humans could not have arrived from West Asia into Indiabecause of lack of West Asian Y-hgs E, G, I, J* and J2f. Kivisild et al wrote,“When compared with European and Middle Eastern populations (Semino et al. 2000), Indians (i) share with themclades J2 and M173 derived sister groups R1b and R1a, the latter of which is particularly frequent in India; and (ii) lack or show amarginal frequency of clades E, G, I, J*, and J2f.”

_________

There is a fundamental unity of mtDNA lineages in India, in spite of the extensive cultural and linguistic diversity, pointing to a relatively small founding group of females in India. Most of the mtDNA diversity observed in Indian populations is between individuals within populations; there is no significant structuring of haplotype diversity by socio-religious affiliation, geographical location of habitat or linguistic affiliation.- Scientists Susanta Roychoudhury and thirteen others studying 644 samples of mtDNA from ten Indian ethnic groups.

_________

Dravidian” authorship of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization rejected indirectly, since it noted, “Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus….” They found, in conclusion, “overwhelming support for an Indian origin of Dravidian speakers.”The frequencies of R2 seems to mirror the frequencies of R1a (i.e. both lineages are strong and weak in the same social and linguistic subgroups). This may indicate that both R1a and R2 moved into India at roughly the same time. R2 is very rare in Europe.Sanghamitra Sengupta, L. Cavalli-Sforza, Partha P. Majuder, and P. A. Underhill. – 2006.

_________

A (2009) study headed by geneticist Swarkar Sharma, collated information for 2809 Indians (681 Brahmins, and 2128 tribals and schedule castes). The results showed “no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals”. Brahmins from West Bengal showed the highest frequency (72.22%) of Y-haplogroups R1a1* hinting that it may have been a founder lineage for this caste group. The authors found it significant that the Saharia tribe of Madhya Pradesh had not only 28.07% R1a1, but also 22.8% R1a*, out of 57 people, with such a high percentage of R1a* never having been found before. Based on STR variance the estimated age of R1a* in India was 18,478 years, and for R1a1 it was 13,768 years.In its conclusions the study proposed “the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins” as well as “the origin of R1a1* … in the Indian subcontinent”.S. Sharma, argued for an Indian origin of R1a1 lineage among Brahmins, by pointing out the highest incidence of R1a*, ancestral clade to R1a1, among Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharias, an Indian tribe.
- Sharma et al 2009

_________

 


199382

Posted by INDIAN EMPIRE on Thu, 29 Dec 2011 17:39 | #

Human Genetics at the University of Michigan, conducted genetic analysis of Indian-born individuals in the US. Their studies of 1,200.’We were struck both by the low level of diversity amongst people spanning such a large geographical region, and by the fact that people of the Indian sub-continent constituted a distinct group when compared to populations from other parts of the world,’ said Pragna I. Patel.

_________

Moreover, there are other DNA lineages found in good numbers in West Asia like R1*, R1b3,J*, J2f, I, G and E which are in total more than 53% population of west Asia. These arevirtually absent from India (Sahoo). Had people migrated from West Asia to India,these haplogroups would also have arrived into India. This evidence proves that J2 did notarrive from West Asia, because no lineage can ever migrate without other lineages alsomigrating along with it from the place of origin or expansion. On the other hand nearly all of the Indian male lineages like F*, L1, H (M-69), K2, C5, C*, R1a (M-17) etc. are found inWest Asia, proving a definite Indian migration to West Asia. The HIV protective gene, whichis found in West Asia, and Central Asia too, is absent from India (Majumder and Dey, 2001).Thus on no account, any migration from West Asia to India can be supported.

_________

Sengupta (2006) showed that J2 is well distributed in Indian population.Sengupta et al (2006) found that the haplogroup J2 had a quite high variance, and hence deep time-depthin Indian tribes and castes too. Moreover the frequency is higher in the Dravidian speakingsouth Indians (19%) than the Indo-European speaking north Indians (11%). This destroys theAryan migration into India from West Asia hypothesis of Bellwood (2003 and 2005). The inference what we can derive from Sengupta and colleagues study’s data is that J2 haplogroup originated in India during Last Glacial Maximum, and migrated out of India whenclimate permitted. J2 is 18.7% in south Pakistan, the central place of Indus civilization.Lineage J2 and its derivatives are 23% in Iran and 22.2% in Turkey. (Regueiro et al.2006).But their variances are less than in India. Semino (2004) gives 18,000 ybp as the time of origin of J2. The variance was also high indicating indigenous origin of the haplogroup in India.J2 as well as its sub-clade J2b2 show a decreasing variance from India to the Balkans.

_________

Sahoo et al had actually written the following words:“The perennial concept of people, language, and agriculture arriving to India together through thenorthwest corridor does not hold up to close scrutiny.Recent claims for a linkage of haplogroups J2, L, R1a,and R2 with a contemporaneous origin for the majority of the Indian castes’ paternal lineages from outside the subcontinent are REJECTED, although our findings do support a local origin of haplogroups F* and H.” .They also rule out arrivals from Southwest Asia because West Asian haplogroups (like Y-Hg G) are not found in India.
Kivisild’s findings (2003) too had shown that humans could not have arrived from West Asia into Indiabecause of lack of West Asian Y-hgs E, G, I, J* and J2f. Kivisild et al wrote,“When compared with European and Middle Eastern populations (Semino et al. 2000), Indians (i) share with themclades J2 and M173 derived sister groups R1b and R1a, the latter of which is particularly frequent in India; and (ii) lack or show amarginal frequency of clades E, G, I, J*, and J2f.”

_________

There is a fundamental unity of mtDNA lineages in India, in spite of the extensive cultural and linguistic diversity, pointing to a relatively small founding group of females in India. Most of the mtDNA diversity observed in Indian populations is between individuals within populations; there is no significant structuring of haplotype diversity by socio-religious affiliation, geographical location of habitat or linguistic affiliation.- Scientists Susanta Roychoudhury and thirteen others studying 644 samples of mtDNA from ten Indian ethnic groups.

_________

Dravidian” authorship of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization rejected indirectly, since it noted, “Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus….” They found, in conclusion, “overwhelming support for an Indian origin of Dravidian speakers.”The frequencies of R2 seems to mirror the frequencies of R1a (i.e. both lineages are strong and weak in the same social and linguistic subgroups). This may indicate that both R1a and R2 moved into India at roughly the same time. R2 is very rare in Europe.

_________

Sanghamitra Sengupta, L. Cavalli-Sforza, Partha P. Majumder, and P. A. Underhill. – 2006.
A (2009) study headed by geneticist Swarkar Sharma, collated information for 2809 Indians (681 Brahmins, and 2128 tribals and schedule castes). The results showed “no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals”. Brahmins from West Bengal showed the highest frequency (72.22%) of Y-haplogroups R1a1* hinting that it may have been a founder lineage for this caste group. The authors found it significant that the Saharia tribe of Madhya Pradesh had not only 28.07% R1a1, but also 22.8% R1a*, out of 57 people, with such a high percentage of R1a* never having been found before. Based on STR variance the estimated age of R1a* in India was 18,478 years, and for R1a1 it was 13,768 years.In its conclusions the study proposed “the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins” as well as “the origin of R1a1* … in the Indian subcontinent”.

_________

S. Sharma, argued for an Indian origin of R1a1 lineage among Brahmins, by pointing out the highest incidence of R1a*, ancestral clade to R1a1, among Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharias, an Indian tribe.
- Sharma et al 2009

_________

The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally upper and lower castes and tribal groups. “The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society.”
“Impossible to distinguish between castes and tribes since their genetics proved they were not systematically different.”
-”Reconstructing Indian Population History”
- David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price & Lalji Singh
- 2009

_________

Underhill and colleagues (2009) presented a detailed study of R1a lineages.They found that R1a is oldest in India. This lineage started expanding from Gujarat about 16,000years back. By 14,000 years back or earlier, it reached the Ganga Valley and Indus Valley.Then people carrying R1a genes migrated out of India, through Afghanistan and Tajikistan,reaching Central Asia. From Central Asia they entered East Europe. They inhabited thePontic-Caspian area. Then they populated those areas which are inhabited today by Slavic and Baltic speaking people

_________

Team working on the same topic included Sengupta, King, Cavalli-Sforza, Underhilland colleagues. They showed that R (especially R1a1 and R2) diversity in India is indigenousin origin and does not support hypothesis of immigration from Central Asia or anywhere outside. R1a prevalence is not only high in Indo-European speaking Punjab, south Pakistan and Ganga Valley, but also in Chenchu and Koya tribes of south India (Kivisildet al.200

_________

Oppenheimer (2003) also had supported Indian origin of R1a which is also called M17 in
genetic circles. He wrote, “And sure enough we find highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in north India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 isnot only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia but diversity characterizes it spresence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan Invasion of India.’ Study of the geographical distribution and thediversity of genetic branches and stems again suggests that Ruslan, along with his son M17,arose early in South Asia,  India”.

_________

 


199383

Posted by To observer on Fri, 30 Dec 2011 02:43 | #

Observer, I came to see if you made any further posts. I am disappointed.

First of all, I don’t think Bliss is Pakistani. My first guess will be that he is an Australian. It’s also possible that he is black or a woman or a chinese . But I can’t know anything for sure.


I blame them only partially for their racism. They know too little about us. They search up google and make up random ideas about us. There are a bunch of north Indians who are indisciplined like hippies and when they migrate they can get on many low-tolerance white people’s nerves . However, these people do not represent India as a whole. They don’t even represent north-India. Moreover, if you could really get to know these people , you will find that they often have a good heart.

I am, however, deeply saddened by your racist remarks. You seem to have this firm conviction that it’s all about races and superficial features. You are wrong, my friend. People are victim of circumstances in more ways than you can imagine and every group has both kind and murderous people.

And don’t insult the Tamils. Many of them are highly intelligent and a lot of them are fairly good looking. For example, look at Vidya Balan. Does she look ugly to you? I mistook her for a sure-shot Bengali as she looked a bit like one of my former teachers.

Anyway, I was hoping that you will be a little different. That is the reason why I commented here. But you sound just like many other arrogant people here. You even sound like someone who is just trying to impress the whites.
Since I can’t change your mind, this will probably be my last post.

MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR.


199384

Posted by Indian Catholic on Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:50 | #

two(infact 3) religions brought the IQ value of Indians low.
1)Hindu religion of north India and South India.
It believes a set of customs and “way of living” which is inferior and keeps humanity the way it was 5000 years ago.
eg: caste system, incest/inter breeding direct or indirectly.
2) Pagan religions of the various tribes of India and the related regions which are absorbed to Hinduism.
These are also beliefs which is negative to a better IQ reading.

3) Hinduism’s offshoot cult called Islam. which is dominating middle east and world over which is far more inferior than the mother religion Hinduism.

These are the reasons why India is lacking in IQ and development.
eg: states like Kerala,Goa and Bigger Metros are having good average IQ and also reflects in the development of these regions. while the Hindu-muslim north India and parts of South India lags long with less than africa living conditions and IQ.

Solution is something which Indians will not be like to accept.
1) A system destroying the inferior systems as cited above.
It can be even Atheism which will Help
2) Catholic/Christianity which is making a change. in southern states like Andhra Pradesh, protestent cults and catholics have converted a lot of people. whether it is “right” or “wrong”, these same Indians once freed from caste system or at least marginally saved from hindu religion are open to education and their lifestyle and HDI are good.

The religion of Hinduism is one reason India is such a poor performer.  this, ofcourse will not be taken as a offence by Hindu/muslims. I have nothing particular against religions. but a careful study of how these religions which are almost similar to tribal culture can show you why India is not progressing the way it should.

TC,
IC


199385

Posted by John on Mon, 02 Jan 2012 17:42 | #

Both desert religions have spoiled this country. Hindus are basically peace loving peoples much like Japanese Buddhists and Chinese Confucianists and post-enlightenment European thinkers. Because of christian/muslim appeasement policy and the corruption of the government we are in the suffering end.

No other province could manage a growth rate of 11 per cent like Hindu/BJP controlled Gujarat.

The Indians invented Zero.I mean the great concept of nothing. “Zero” is a great mathematical discovery and the credit belongs to Indian thinkers.

See Dr CK Raju’s work on how/why the differential calculus invented by the [Hindu] kerala school of mathematics and astronomy of the 1400-1500 CE timeframe was imported into europe.

yet another major invention for which the credit has gone undeservedly to europeans.

“In contrast with China,” said Delhi University’s Mohanty, “India’s developmental strategy did not ensure that the land belonged to the tiller, so absentee-landlordism, sharecropping and concealed
landlordism are still the norm in most areas.”

India’s two most populous states—Uttar Pradesh and Bihar—are still plagued by a near-feudal system of absentee landlords and tenant farming.

“I know it is heretical,” said Nick Bridge, a New Zealand diplomat who served in Beijing and until recently was ambassador to India, “but I think one of the main reasons that China has an advantage is that it underwent a violent revolution. The Communists killed the landlords. India still has them, and they are dragging the country down.”

China, like the Soviet Union, launched a mostly disastrous program of collective farming that reached a low in the 1958-61 Great Leap
Forward. In that program, instituted by Mao as an accelerated way to communism, peasants were forced to join production brigades and eat in communal kitchens.

The result was a breakdown in the food production system and the famine that experts now believe killed up to 30 million. The communal kitchens were abandoned in 1962. The collective farms lingered until 1979, when Deng initiated a “household contract system” that lets peasants till their own land and sell their harvests on the open market.

But the essential reforms—land redistribution—that occurred at the time of the revolution remained intact. Once freed from the collective, Chinese farmers prospered—quickly. Some centralized, communal aspects of the system remain and help Chinese peasants organize and coordinate efforts.

“China has made progress in areas where we have not,” M. S. Swaminathan, a renowned agronomist and an architect of India’s “green revolution” in agriculture, said in an interview at the Madras-based Swaminathan Research Foundation. “Because of the very possibility of social mobilization under a single political party, they have been able to get better control of water and pest management.

“The Chinese,” he said, “have an integrated approach to job creation between the farm and off-farm employment which we have not had in this country. The result in India has been the proliferation of urban slums as landless poor people migrate to the big cities of Bombay and
Calcutta and Madras, living in utter squalor and deprivation.”

China’s population increase and agricultural modernization have also produced surplus labor. An estimated 80 million to 100 million people—the “floating population”—are internal migrants, manual laborers, construction workers and curbside vendors in the major cities. But several studies report that an additional 100 million of these people were absorbed by outlying “township enterprises” that India has never developed.

“The main reason that, economically speaking, China is doing so much better than India,” Mohanty said, “is the difference in the political systems that resulted from the kinds of revolutions the two countries went through. I think the Chinese were forced to face the challenge right from the beginning. From 1949 onward, they had to justify their revolution by providing some basic economic needs, partly because they were constantly under attack from the West.

“In India, we also had great values. But at the end of the freedom struggle, there were great compromises. . . . The basic needs of the people got postponed for the vast majority of people.”

In fits and starts in the past five years, India has begun to
institute market liberalization and reforms that China began in the 1980s.

Now, many foreign business analysts are optimistic about India’s potential. “We basically advised our clients that they need to be [investing] in both China and India,” said Dominique Turcq, an analyst with McKinsey & Co. who directed a huge 1995 study comparing the “two giants of the 21st century.”

That study, the most exhaustive economic comparison of the two markets from an investment perspective, predicts that, “in the next decade, both India and China will see sustainable growth.”

Democracy Inhibits Growth

India’s vibrant democracy, Turcq said in an interview in Paris, where he is now based, in some ways inhibits the government’s ability to spur growth. A democratic government, for example, must pay closer attention to inflation and respond to “strong, established lobbies.”

But foreign investors who have worked in both places often find India’s civil society easier to understand and more dependable.

“Democracy puts limits on what you can do in brutalizing the economy,” Turcq said. “But it does give you more stability. India will probably never grow at 12% a year like China. But it will have stability.”

Other observers are not so sure. What the strictly business analyses of India fail to take into account, they say, are growing divisions among castes, religions and economic classes—the haves and the have- nots.

China’s ability to convert quickly to a market economy can be
attributed in part to the country’s attention to the most basic social needs. So while Mao’s party may have been seeking to reach a perfect Communist state—by instituting universal education and public health care and improving the status of women—it also laid the groundwork for a market economy.

“The force of China’s market economy rests on the solid foundations of social changes that occurred earlier,” said economist Sen. “India cannot simply jump onto that bandwagon without paying attention to the enabling social changes—in education, health care and land reforms—that made the market function in the way it has in China.”

Meanwhile, a working measure of success for the two titans may lie in the question posed by former U.S. diplomat Jay Taylor in his 1987 book, “The Dragon and the Wild Goose,” which compares the nations: “Would you rather be the poorest man in China or in India?”

Rone Tempest, The Times’ Beijing Bureau chief since 1993 and New Delhi Bureau chief from 1984 to 1988, reported these stories in India and China.

“As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never
come to an end”

Events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)
Ancient Pagans

*As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples
were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.

*Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.

*Examples of destroyed Temples the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea,
the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the
Heliopolis.

*Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis
were famous as “temple destroyer.” [DA468] *Pagan services became
punishable by death in 356. [DA468]

*Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed,
because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]

According to Christian chroniclers he “followed meticulously all
Christian teachings…”

*In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.

*In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on
demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]

*The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to
pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a
Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.

Mission

*Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to
convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]

*Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church
taxes between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain
5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]

*Battle of Belgrad 1456 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]

*15th century Poland 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by
Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]

*16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops “pacified and
civilized” Ireland, where only Gaelic “wild Irish”, “unreasonable
beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common
of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing.” One of
the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother
of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that “the heddes of all those (of what
sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte
off from their bodies… and should bee laied on the ground by eche
side of the waie”, which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused
“greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde
fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde”.

Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99,
225]

Crusades (1095-1291)

*First Crusade 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]

*Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96
thousands. [WW23] *9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish),
thousands respectively. [WW25-27]

*Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered
(number of slain unknown) [WW30]

*After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and
60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed.
[WW32-35]

Here the Christians “did no other harm to the women found in [the
enemy’s] tents - save that they ran their lances through their
bellies,” according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres.
[EC60]

*Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the
subsequent famine “the already stinking corpses of the enemies were
eaten by the Christians” said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]

*Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish,
muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]

(In the words of one witness “there [in front of Solomon’s temple]
was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood
of our foes”, and after that “happily and crying for joy our people
marched to our Saviour’s tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of
gratitude”)

*The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote “It was impossible to
look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay
fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the
blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies
and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of
all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the
victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous
sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that
within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels
perished.” [TG79]

*Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that “even the following
summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of
decomposition”. One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]

*Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered “in the
name of Our Lord Jesus Christ”. [WW45]

*Fourth crusade 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims
unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]

*Rest of Crusades in less detail until the fall of Akkon 1291
probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas
alone). [WW224]

Note All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

Heretics

*Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus
and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]

*Manichaean heresy a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice
birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics)
was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between
372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]

*Albigensians the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians.
[DO29]

The Albigensians (cathars = Christians allegedly that have all rarely
sucked) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept
roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]

Begin of violence on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single
pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209
destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including
Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends)
20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]

*Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed.
[WW181]

*subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half
the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were
exterminated. [WW183]

*After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search
and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the
stake 1324. [WW183] *Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy
alone), [WW183]

*Other heresies Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and
many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some
Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of
persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including
the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).

*Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220
burnings. [DO28]

*John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was
burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]

*University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna.
[DO59]

*Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for
seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori
(Rome) on 2/17/1600.

Witches

*from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several
thousand.

*in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars
several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or
hanged. [WV]

*incomplete list of documented cases


199386

Posted by Arjune Shandal on Tue, 10 Jan 2012 00:35 | #

im an indian, my iq is 140. cool story bro. tell it again.


199387

Posted by M-W on Thu, 12 Jan 2012 05:15 | #

一群海盗跟奴隶贩子的后代在自诩自己的26个字母变成了世界语言是一件多么让人自豪的事情啊
悲剧的是
直到现在,依旧存在着种姓制度的民主的印度,还在为曾经统治过他们的白人们摇旗呐喊
并大喊说:我们的智商是最高的
知道自己的脑门上印着‘奴隶’跟‘笨蛋’四个字吗?


199388

Posted by M-W on Thu, 12 Jan 2012 06:02 | #

智者说过学习一种外语是为了从另一个视角重新审视我们身处的这个世界
Wiser said that:
To learn another absolutely different language can help you to see the world from another angle,and you will benefit a lot through this method.

白人们,麻烦问一下,你们的脑中除了26个字母的字母拼写系统以外,
还知不知道有另一个世界—地球上唯一的一个世界还在用着象形文字?

那里用占世界不到7%的土地养活了占世界20%的人口
那里的文明持续了五千年,而曾经的玛雅,埃及,苏美尔都已经变成了时间的沙砾
那里采用着与世界绝大多数国家不同的政治制度,有着世界上最大的海陆空军队以及NUCLEAR POWER
那里正在运行着世界上运营里程最长速度最快的高铁以及成为了
世界上仅有的三个可以独立发射载人火箭,出舱并建立空间站的国家

中华文明教育我们:和而不同,所以我们不会去征服一个国家,而是去交流去理解去做买卖
中国是不会不像白人那样剥着印第安人头皮玩的。

白人孩子们,你们在自诩26个英文字母成为世界通用语之前,好好审视一下自己血腥暴力的历史
这对你们提高IQ有好处。

中国正在重回他500年前应该所处的位置,尽管这500年来我们自己将我们的文明隔绝于世界之外
专制和封闭导致了我们暂时的经济落后,但我们正在奋起直追,2020年见分晓。
中国5000年来不惧怕任何形式的挑战
记住:千万不要惹一条左手握着原子弹,右手握着世界经济发动机的巨龙
REMEMBER: NEVER MAKE A GIANT DRAGON ANGRY WHOSE ATOM BOMB IN ITS LEFT HAND,
ENGINE OF THE WORLD ECONOMY IN ANOTHER HAND.

WE HAVE BEEN COMING BACK
NEXT WE WILL PLAY THE ROLE LIKE FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO


199389

Posted by Jim on Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:26 | #

@ Indian Empire

Are you suggesting that Europeans, middle-easterners and east-asians all came from Indians?

That’s interesting!
That would kind of mean that India is to Eurasia what Africa is to the World.


199390

Posted by Vibhu Parcha on Fri, 13 Jan 2012 10:46 | #

</strong>this is a highly racial article as clearly </em><u></u>disregard<u></u><em>the history of india do you know India was the first place where education was public…. we called them gurukuls and not modern day schools which indeed were introduced by the English. World’s first university was built in India.. and you talk of us having poor education. There are more illiterates in US than in India inspite of our massive population.
<strong>
what I think is that modern IQ testing is totally unfair because it does not take into account one’s first language and ability of communication in other languages
<strong></strong><em></em><u></u>some fact here-
we Indians were fisrt to calculate the distance b/w sun and earth, earth and moon, size of milky way about 3000 years back. Our holy scriptutres mention of aeroplanes, helicopters, missiles even in the age when world was still mainly nomadic, in maths…rather half of it is by India.. we invented Calculus 2000 years before Newton, Pythogoras Theorem was known to us since 500 years before greeks, taylor series was made in India about 1100 years ago, 0 was brought into existence by us….our 5000 year old scriptures mention of IVF, cloning, inter- galactic travel…..................there is lots more and i cant stop writing


199391

Posted by Vibhu Parcha on Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:05 | #

this is a highly racist article as clearly disregard the history of india do you know India was the first place where education was public…. we called them gurukuls and not modern day schools which indeed were introduced by the English. World’s first university was built in India.. and you talk of us having poor education. There are more illiterates in US than in India inspite of our massive population.
what I think is that modern IQ testing is totally unfair because it does not take into account one’s first language and ability of communication in other languages
some fact here-
we Indians were fisrt to calculate the distance b/w sun and earth, earth and moon, size of milky way about 3000 years back. Our holy scriptutres mention of aeroplanes, helicopters, missiles even in the age when world was still mainly nomadic, in maths…rather half of it is by India.. we invented Calculus 2000 years before Newton, Pythogoras Theorem was known to us since 500 years before greeks, taylor series was made in India about 1100 years ago, 0 was brought into existence by us….our 5000 year old scriptures mention of IVF, cloning, inter- galactic travel…..................there is lots more and i cant stop writing


199392

Posted by John on Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:34 | #

Inter-galactic travel?
Helicopters? Aeroplanes? 3000 years ago?

Are you mad? If your holy scriptures really mention them, then it is nothing more than imagination.


199393

Posted by Asensharma on Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:14 | #

I am an upper cast Hindu, from East India (West Bengal, for those who want precision).

For me, it is not difficult to understand why India fares so low in terms of average I.Q. tests. Who are we kidding when most of the population still struggle to make two ends meet? The lower section of the society is dually cursed: First is the ancient cast system which ensured they do not get access to any mental stimulation, the second is the corrupt political scenario in the country. Together these all result in malnutrtion, poverty and lack of oppertunities, and worse, a prevalent menrality that certain scetions of the society don’t really deserve attention. Even the people belonging to that section start believing that.

I writemy response with such humbleness</strong> not because I doubt the potential of India.
Quite on the contrary… Because <strong>I believe that the first step towards achieveing that potential is to recognize and accept and embrace the areas where we lack.

It saddens me specially to see Indians turning against each others. Claiming Northern supremity over Southern, and vise versa.
It is even more saddenning to see that we, the upper cast Hindus, sight cast system and the resulting damage to the Indian population as a means to secure our own ego ” XX% brahmin population and other upper casts”. As if it does not matter that the rest of the country is struggling and falling behind their full ppotential, as long as we get our badge of the “genetically advanced, higher IQ minority”.

To the Chinese participants... I envy the solidarity. I do not agree with all that you have written, but, I admire the fact that not one Chinese person has pointed finger to another, claiming they could have even a higher IQ score had certain section of the populace not been present.

This in itslef is a great eye opener to anyone who wonders why India manages to fall behind in aggregate terms, while individual Indians show brilliance. Because we have a long, long way to go before we identify ourselves as Indians. </strong<strong>>, and not on basis of cast, language or region.

Note: Ironically enough, the introduction i have given for myself is meant for fellow Indians.

Thanks.


199394

Posted by John on Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:39 | #

What all you people are failing to consider is the possibility that IQ tests are not a valid measure of intelect. First of all, Raven’s Progresive Matrices, which alot of these studies are done with, uses INDUCTIVE REASONING. The problems blatantly demand inductive reasoning, which is a non-rigorous form of reasoning, and not critical to the sciences in the manner that deductive reasoning is. This is an issue that has not been addressed in the literature at sufficient length at all, but, as a Cognitive Psychology grad student, you can rest assured, I will make sure that it is studied at length. I’m sure Raven’s progresive matrices must say something about certain cognitive functions but it is not the be all end all. Furthermore, what these “scientists” fail to realize is that some cultures may simply not give a shit about some stupid IQ test and their idea of effort is… uhh… no effort. The Roma studies are highly credulous for example. Just so everyone knows, the level of “effort” on one of these tests is gauged by the clinician who administers the test in a bullshit qualitative way, it is highly non-rigorous. Lastly, the correlation between IQ and achievment, that means actual real life achievment, is positive, but weak. Now, some people will say “it is moderate!!” Wrong, moderate correlations; R=.5, translate into an R^2 of .25. It’s R^2 that is the important part, that’s the part that tell syou the strength of the relationship, and according to mainstream (but ill informed sources) it signifies “variance accounted for” (this is an ill informed interpretation of R^2 but we’ll roll with it). An R^2 of .25 means that the majority of the variance in the dependent variable, say,  ACHIEVMENT, is NOT acounted for by variance in the independent variable IQ. Not to mention the relationship is asymptotic, meaning that as IQ approaches infinity d(achievment)/d(IQ) approaches 0 (the derivitive). What this means is that a really, really high IQ isn’t gonna make that big of a difference for a person in life, in comparison to a person with a high IQ. To cut a long story short, IQ just isn’t the most important thing in whether or not you succeede in life, so stop worrying about it.


199395

Posted by TheAryanInside on Sat, 25 Feb 2012 20:51 | #

[quote=Bliss]
Ethnic Chinese have won 2 Fields Medals vs 0 for ethnic Indians.

lol I noticed you said “ethnic Chinese” instead of “China IMO medalists”...the fact is 0 China IMO medalists from China have won a Fields Medal. Tao is from Australia and his contributions aren’t significant so I don’t know how he won, I guess the Fields Medal committee is a joke now. Chern’s contributions are more significant but he’s from the US not from China and he’s from the distant past.

If Ramanujan lived during the time period that the Fields Medal existed he would’ve won a Fields Medal, so going back to the distant past doesn’t mean much.

So your 2 “ethnic Chinese from non-Chinese countries” only shows that the Chinese can’t independently do anything.

What’s come out from China (not Chinese in non-Chinese countries) since 1986 when China started ranking high in the IMO?

The fact is Chinese in China performs the best in the IMO so where are all of China’s contributions to go with it?

The only reasonable answer is that the Chinese are genetically incapable of contributing. We know this because the Chinese in non-Chinese countries who rank high in the IMO also go on to contribute very little (like Lenny Ng).

On the other India since the year 2000 has already won the Abel Prize (Nobel Prize equivalent), Rolf Nevanlinna prize (Nobel Prize equivalent), and created the first primality testing algorithm proven to run in polynomial time (which is much more significant than the Green-Tao theorem).

Since there are lots of Indians who have made Fields Medal worthy contributions not winning a Fields Medal isn’t really significant for India considering India’s malnutrition and illiteracy rates. The Fields Medal committee is just a joke now.

India will probably win a Fields Medal in 2014 and/or 2018.

On the other hand what’s China’s explanation for no Chinese IMO medalists from China winning a Fields Medal or Abel Prize or any high ranking mathematical prize given out for contributions despite ranking extremely high?

The only explanation is that the Chinese are genetically incapable of contributing, they disproved the validity of many contests lol.

Ranking high in the IMO doesn’t even mean much. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (PRK) also have high rankings, but they were disqualified twice for cheating and have no significant mathematical contributions.

Basically any country can artificially raise their rankings in contests if they wanted to.

So China’s high rankings in contests not correlating with contributions out from China only proves that the Chinese are genetically incapable of contributing, they are just like robots.


199396

Posted by TheAryanInside on Sat, 25 Feb 2012 21:39 | #

</u>

Three Japanese and a Vietnamese have also won the Fields Medal. Vietnam also performs much better than India in the International Math Olympiad. So does Iran.

Japan, Vietnam, and Iran also perform much better than France in the IMO, but France has 11 Fields Medals and a much lower population size than those combined.

France also has more Fields Medals than all three of those countries combined.

Having high rankings in the IMO without contributions to correlate clearly shows us that the Chinese are incapable of contributing.

The Wolf Prize in mathematics has been won by 3 Japanese and 2 Chinese mathematicians vs 0 Indians.

The Wolf Prize in Physics which is second to the Nobels in prestige has been won by 2 Japanese and 1 Chinese vs 0 Indians.

The Wolf Prize in Chemistry has been won once by a Chinese but never by an Indian.

The Wolf Prize in Medicine has been won by 3 Japanese vs 0 Indians/south Asians.

Lol since the year 1984 East Asians have a sum total of 3 Wolf Math Prizes?

The total literate population of East Asians is like 1400 million+ so we would expect them to be contributing much more than not just Indians but the entire WORLD.

India still has a lower literate population size than both Europeans and East Asians.

Since the year 2000:
The Abel Prize (nearly equal to a Fields Medal) has been won by 1 Indian but 0 East Asians

The Nevanlinna Prize has been by 1 Indian but 0 East Asians

The AKS Primality test was developed by 3 Indians in India and 0 East Asians

Clay Research Award won by 2 Indians and 1 Chinese

Gödel Prize won by 7+ Indians and 1 Chinese

Considering India’s human development, average IQ, and literate population size India is contributing dis-proportionally more than the Chinese.


199397

Posted by TheAryanInside on Sat, 25 Feb 2012 22:43 | #

Cut the stupid ghetto jive-talking already. You are not fooling anyone. The only relics of an advanced civilization that are found in India are those that were built by foreign rulers, the turko-mongol muslim Mughals and the white Christian British. The Hindus were never able to create an advanced civilization, probably because of the asinine caste system.

lol stop lying to yourself. Don’t make me laugh.

What was advanced about China? The majority of Chinese inventions don’t require much intellect at all and are simply the result of Chinese culture.

Obviously since China was the only civilization in the world that had the culture to build machines for 2000+ years we would expect China to have the most machines during that time. We would’ve also expected any civilization that has the culture to build machines for 2000+ years to figure out steam technology, but China didn’t.

Having lots of inventions that do not require much intelligence over a 2000+ year period when China had the culture advantage isn’t a sign of advancement, it’s a sign of a lack of advancement.

The only reason people mistakenly believe that China was so advanced is because they don’t factor in culture.

Basically any civilization that has the culture to build machines for 2000+ years would’ve been able to come up with China’s inventions or more.

Gunpowder, paper, woodblock printing, the primitive compass, and basically all of China’s primitive inventions don’t require much intelligence at all to figure out, just simple experimenting and guessing.

The reason why basically every Chinese invention had been surpassed by Arabs and Europeans in the 13th-16th Century is specifically because nearly all Chinese inventions don’t require much intelligence.

India had been much more advanced than China in mathematics, linguistics, astronomy, philosophy, metallurgy, plumbing, and every area besides inventions:

- Indian philosophy is the only one comparable to Greek philosophy, the logic and concepts in Indian texts can easily rival or surpass everything in Greek philosophy

- Indian astronomy had been the most advanced until the time of Johannes Kepler in the 17th century, the Chinese thought the earth was flat and square until the 17th Century LOL

- Kerala school’s mathematical analysis remained the most advanced form of mathematics until the 18th Century

- Indus Valley plumbing system remained the most advanced until the 19th Century

- Pāṇini’s morphological analysis had remained the most advanced until the mid-20th Century

- The classical and traditional manner that Indian high-carbon Wootz steel was manufactured has still yet to be re-discovered in modern times

If anyone doubts any statement above just double-check it and see if it’s true.

The reason why many of the things Indians did were only surpassed much later on is specifically because they require much more intelligence than China’s primitive inventions.

The Kerala school’s mathematical analysis alone requires more intelligence than not some but rather ALL of China’s primitive inventions.

The only thing China can get ahead of India in is copying, lol.


199398

Posted by TheAryanInside on Sun, 26 Feb 2012 00:21 | #

Technologically, economically, militarily, organizationally, in practically every way east Asia is miles and miles ahead of south Asia. You look very, very stupid bragging about India which is poorer, hungrier, filthier, shabbier than almost any other place on earth.

lol China finally got around to figuring out that the earth wasn’t flat and square in the 17th century and now in modern times all they can do is learn and copy from others, not contribute.

East Asians have the very highest literate population in the entire world and also a high average IQ yet they contribute dis-proportionally very little.

Since East Asians have the highest literate population size, perform well in contests, and have high average IQs why do they contribute so very little? It’s because they’re genetically incapable of making contributions that require originality.

India has a low average IQ, high illiteracy rates, high malnutrition rates, a lower literate population than both East Asians and Europeans and Indians still contribute dis-proportionally more than the Chinese.

Japan doesn’t even have it’s own national defense, the US provides Japan with most of it’s national defense. If a country doesn’t have to worry much about national defense spending building up infrastructure and an economy would be much easier. So much of Japan’s success comes directly from the US.

Right now India really is poor. But India is just beginning to become developed, so we don’t really know India’s potential yet. One of the main challenges India faces is that it’s even more over-crowded than Japan.

China on the other hand has been ranking high in contests for 25 years and China has no significant contributions. So we can see that China has already reached it’s limits and exhausted all it’s potential.

Everything China has been doing are things that any country can do (copying infrastructure, ranking high in contests that have do with copying, copying national defense programs, and other things involving copying).

Even if China achieves the best economy in the world all they’ll be doing is copying, not contributing.

Since India is still developing itself we don’t really know how strong India’s economy or national defense will become. Once India’s literacy rate goes above 90% and internet usage goes above 30% India would’ve obviously surpassed robotic China in every imaginable field.

India is just beginning to un-tap it’s potential where as China has already exhausted it’s potential.


199399

Posted by TheAryanInside on Sun, 26 Feb 2012 01:20 | #

@ Indian Catholic

1) I don’t think so. There is no such religion as “Hinduism” it is simply a geographical term used to refer to all Indian religions in India (except for Buddhism, Jainism, and Carvaka).

So which Indian religion are you referring to when you say “Hinduism”?

Many things in Indian philosophy contain concepts that are far more advanced than things found in Judeo-Christian religions. Physicists like Erwin Schrödinger and Robert Oppenheimer were interested in Vedantic philosophy.

Of course the philosophical concepts in Indian religions are nothing like the Ganesh or Brahma version of “Hinduism” that is often portrayed in the media.

What a shame that the media portrays “Hinduism” to be such a primitive religion when in reality Indian religions are truthfully more advanced than all other major religions besides Buddhism.

2) Pagan religions? Are Vedantic, Advaita Vedantic,  and other monistic/monotheistic Indian religions considered Pagan?

3) lol, Islam is an off-shoot of Judaism and Christianity, not “Hinduism”. In Islam they believe in the same prophets that Christians and Jews believe in.

Where did you get the idea that Islam is an off-shoot of “Hinduism”? Most Indian religions are nothing like Islam at all. Judaism is very similar to Islam and Christianity is some what similar to Islam.

4) Or a solution would be to switch to the more advanced Indian religions like that of the Vedantists instead of the later Puranic Indian religions.

Vedantists believe that reality is an illusion generated by our sensory perceptions and that all that really exists is the one true unborn God who is beyond our sensory perception. It is nothing like other Indian religions.

“As dreams, illusions and castles in the air are viewed, so is the tangible universe viewed by the wise, well versed in Vedanta”

“By direct perception, logical deduction, scriptural testimony and personal realization, one should know that this world has a beginning and an end and so is not the ultimate reality. Thus one should live in this world without attachment”

“The Absolute Truth, which alone was present before the creation of the universe and which alone will remain after its destruction, is also the time factor and the ultimate cause. Even in the middle stage of this creation’s existence, the Absolute Truth alone is the actual reality.”


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Posted by Dump people try to make smart comments on Tue, 28 Feb 2012 07:02 | #

I do not think the data is accurate in a way.  It’s all about what era you’re talking about.  For example if you check stastic a hundred years ago.  You would like chinese is not high of iq because of the economic conditions does not allow chinese to go to school.  The other factor is what percentage you’re talking about for example genetic happen randomly.  If your population is 3000 percent number of people then genetic random of super smart people would be high than the other population.

What I would like to say is that there is no such population smart forever or stupid forever it all depend of economic conditions, the generic ramdon number how big of your population, the cultures how much family encourage children to learn and challenge and other factors.

At this era, Indian and Chinese pupolation is high and the economic have been improving; therefore, will see more of success.  The Jews has learn a great lessons about race termination; therefore they family cultures invoke them to be more selfdefend by take more knowledge to defend themself.

If there a WW3, then whoever win the WW3 would have the most IQs because their economic would be improve.  It’s all dawnwin evolution.

Therefore your comments and your statistic only for racism or nationalism to make you feel better. 

Please do not be a victim of Racism and have your own judgment.


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Posted by indian strategy on Tue, 06 Mar 2012 20:55 | #

Vocabulary and math iq without geometry are the best 2 correlates of income. These 2 need to be measured first. Though most of the factory based jobs of the Chinese (requiring spatial IQ, not math) are blue collar low waged works I am not convinced and impressed much either from the Indian call-centers. Maybe the Chinese are getting prepared for hi-tech industries requiring spatial IQ of the future. So they are learning. The people working in the call centers are just very ordinary and won’t need any kind of graduation or certificate. Sorry but it is a very simple job. 10.7 percent of the Indians are said to have learned English. Okay, they are using their English knowledge. That is just it, nothing else. The Chinese don’t know much English. They can’t do it but the Indians can! In the factory based jobs the Chinese might learn some know-how. It may be useful in the hi-tech jobs of the future. But I wonder what the Indians will learn from the call-centers and promote to! It is a useless job in every kind of measurement. But yes there is one advantage of it. It doesn’t require much area and energy which both are useful for a crowded country. India wouldn’t be able to set up factory based industries because they require energy demands and very large places. On the other hand the Chinese are making investments for the mines especially in Africa. Maybe for an energy crisis they are getting prepared. As an economist I have no doubt that there will be numerous books written in the future about the very different strategies of the Indians and the Chinese. They are playing the game from different perspectives. Time will show who is right. India has the advantage of English, judicial system and low energy demanding jobs. And India has one more advantage. Their jobs are very fixable. They can get rid of the call centers any time they want and set up another firm but the Chinese won’t be able to get rid of the large factories in a short time. The Indians praise individuality and they are better entrepreneurs. They have also better personality traits for business life. I guess the Indian strategy is better but I would like to learn the plans of the Chinese too. To me the Indians have some advantages other than IQ. The Chinese economy isn’t efficient enough due to the government interventions like giving bank credits to unprofitable areas. But this has nothing to do with IQ. In the future Tibet may get separated from China so there may be political problems preventing sustainable growth. Anyway except the high caste Indians (Brahmins) and Parsis I don’t believe that there are smart races in India. They make up less than 5 % of India. Finally India has one of the worst, hottest climates in the world. They won’t be able to attract foreign investment much. Anyway let’s wait and see what happens.


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Posted by Indian Strategy on Wed, 07 Mar 2012 20:56 | #

There are so many idiot explanations in this forum that I really don’t know where to begin from. First Marilyn Vos Savant had an IQ of 228 as a child but an IQ of 186 (!) as an adult. They are the same IQ,
The former one is ratio-IQ and the latter is deviation-IQ. See
http://hiqnews.megafoundation.org/Terman_Summary.htm
Second, chess is just a strategy game nothing to do with high IQ. So is the Japanese Go. But if one is take a strategy game for comparison (!), it would be much better to take Go as no computer is able to beat a good Go player yet as it is much more difficult to formulate in software. By the way Deeper Blue defeated Kasparov. More than 90 % of the Go players are East Asians.
One said that there were 4 Indian billionaires in top 10. He says this proves (!) that Indians are smarter. This is the result of the very bad allocation of income.
I believe that except the high caste Indians (Brahmins) and Parsis there are absolutely no smart races in India. You should read http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=7aa0c384b52dbbc77af9f49275ebc439 .India has 3 main advantages over China. Those are English, judicial system and especially the energy profile. Indians won’t need much energy as they make investments on information technologies.
As to creativity you should know that these three things are different.
IQ (verbal, math, spatial)
creative talent
creative personality (high conscientiousness, high emotional stability (or low neuroticism), high openness to experience)
First what is the difference between math and spatial ability? Spatial IQ (or Performance IQ) is visual reasoning with real 3-D objects (unlike chess). In chess the rules and moves are imaginary. The car repairers have jobs with low spatial IQ. The engineers have quiet high spatial IQ and finally the INVENTORS have the extreme levels of spatial IQ, not the scientists or mathematicians.  The conditions of today requires verbal and math IQ (especially math without geometry because they are different types of IQ) mostly because they are correlated most with income. In the historical evolution of IQ the Jews improved their verbal and math IQ but decreased their spatial IQ. Their scores were as follows in the Backman study.
Verbal: 107.8
Math: 109.7
Spatial IQ: 91.3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ashkenazi_Jews/Archive_1
(verbal comprehension factor - 107.8; English language – 99.5; mathematics – 109.7; visual reasoning (“a measure of reasoning with visual forms”) – 91.3)
While the Jews were being selected for their high math skills they were also being deselected for their low spatial skills. They had to sacrifice their spatial skills because it was a very EXPENSIVE for the brain and couldn’t provide income too much. Math IQ provided higher income and it was cheaper for the brain. Why? Because spatial IQ requires much space from the brain and much energy from the body. How did they find this? To understand this one should first learn what correlation is.

The height and weight correlate positively with each other. If you randomly select 100 persons of 1.70 m and 100 persons of 1.80 m you will see that on AVERAGE (not always) the persons in the 2nd group have also more weight. But if you select the tallest 100 persons and the fattest 100 persons on earth you will see that no one in the first group also exists in the 2nd group because being fat or tall requires high energy from the body so one can’t be the fattest and the tallest at the same time. Due to the law of the preservation of energy DNA has to sacrifice one of them to reach the extreme levels in the other one.
It goes the same for verbal and spatial IQ. They correlate positively. If you select 100 persons with 120 verbal IQ and 100 persons with 130 verbal IQ you will see that the 2nd group has also higher spatial IQ on average. But if you select the highest 100 persons in verbal IQ and the highest 100 persons with spatial IQ on earth you will see that no one in the first group also exists in the 2nd group because having high verbal IQ or having high spatial IQ requires high energy from the body so one can’t have the highest verbal IQ and the highest spatial IQ at the same time. Due to the law of the preservation of energy DNA has to sacrifice one of them to reach the extreme levels in the other one. That is why the highest spatial IQ scorers usually score just moderately high in verbal as when most of the brain is devoted to mechanical abilities almost there is not much space for verbal in the brain. So for the brain the VERBAL and the SPATIAL IQs are the MOST EXPENSIVE abilities. But though math IQ provides more income on average the highest math scorers don’t need to sacrifice their verbal IQs much as there are many people who score very high in both of them meaning that math IQ is much cheaper and efficient for the brain and body. Anyway though the Jews produced lots of scientists and mathematicians in the history they absolutely had no INVENTORS because science requires ABSTRACT reasoning but technology requires CONCRETE reasoning. That is the difference between math and spatial IQ. Almost one third of the math faculties in the US are Ashkenazim but they are fewer in the engineering departments. Caltech has the highest SAT scores and the engineering departments are full of the East Asians. Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla, Graham Bell, Faraday and many others were all whites as the Jews lacked spatial IQ related with INVENTIONS. The INVENTIONS require SPATIAL IQ and the DISCOVORIES require MATH IQ. The Jewish evolutional strategy was right as the mechanical abilities were irrelevant with earning money. Even in a very technological society like Japan you can’t employ everyone in hi-tech centers. It is limited. Anyway the average SPATIAL IQ of the East Asians is 110, matchless in the world. That is why the Japanese beat every nation in hi-tech patents. I am 100 percent sure that the Chinese will follow them as all the East Asians have the same IQ profile. Then you can ask why the East Asians didn’t have lots of inventors in the history. IQ, creative talent and creative personality are 3 different things. A super high IQ person can learn many things in a short time with little study but there is no guarantee that he will produce a new thesis with useful and original idea. These are different talents of the brain. Creative talent and high IQ correlate little with each other. The best creativity test is Torrance verbal test (if it is not studied before) and this test doesn’t and can’t measure INVENTIVE ability. It measures the creative in writing and science more (at least better than an IQ test if the test isn’t studied, ted.uconn.edu/nrcgt/reports/rbdm9202/rbdm9202.pdf ).
The Nobel Prize winners had many skills related with arts and writing (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/imagine/200903/arts-and-crafts-keys-scientific-creativity).
These artistic skills combined with high math IQ produces creative talent. I am not convinced that the East Asians lack any creative talent. First it was the opinion of the Torrance who created the best creativity test and spent 60 years working on creativity that the East Asians were in fact better in creative talent but worse in creative personality (high conscientiousness, high emotional stability or low neuroticism and high openness to experience). Secondly the Nobel Prize winners are overrepresented most in writing ability among all kinds of arts. There are almost no East Asian writers. One reason is the language barrier. They have very difficult languages for translation. Every symbol is a word. But the other reason is they are not interested in writing just like the author says they are not talkative. It is impossible that the East Asians lack writing ability as the Asians have the same essay writing scores in SAT with even a greater variance. If you exclude the southeast Asians it is clear that the East Asians will have higher mean averages than the whites http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/2006-total-group-writing-subscore-report.pdf).
The creativity process first begins with asking the right question (http://www.hyle.org/journal/issues/9-1/root-bernstein.htm). It is related with aesthetic taste. I don’t believe that the East Asians lack any aesthetic taste as writing ability already includes it.
Then what do they really lack? Possibly it is related with the personality skills. Just look at http://www.toddkshackelford.com/downloads/Schmitt-JCCP-2007.pdf .
You will see that the East Asian countries have lower C, lower N (or in other words higher emotional stability) and lower O. They also have lower variances in all these three personalities. The ones who took the questionnaires were all college undergraduates, the cream of the population. High conscientiousness is related with high ambition, persistence and perseverance. High emotional stability is related with self confidence. And finally high openness is related with curiosity and trying new things. These all more or less come to hard work in the end. The East Asians have good work ethics but when it comes to trying to find new discoveries they don’t work enough. That is exactly what the questionnaires say. In fact especially the Jews work much harder than the whites. See Israel scores where 40 percent of the population is Ashkenazim.
In PISA the East Asians have higher mean scores and higher variances in math at the same time meaning that the whites have no CHANCE at the high end of the math scale. They also have higher mean scores in science but lower variances. But still at the 6th sigma (one in a billion level) the East Asians will have higher means according to the variances. Now let’s come to the Nobel Prizes, Fields Medals and IMOs (International Math Olympiads). First IMO or Putnam in the US is question-answer types of test. They are related with IQ, not creativity. In creativity there is no question. You yourself ask the question and find the answer. Nobel Prizes or citations are related with creativity. Fields Medals are also related with creativity but sometimes they find solutions to unsolved problems like in the case of Perelman. Then it is yes like an IQ type of test. Just like with Nobel Prizes, who gets Fields Medal is quite political.  Who among many well-deserving candidates gets picked has to do with having networking connections among former Fields Medalists and other powerful folks in the field. Someone said that IMO wasn’t a good indicator. It is true but you should also know that the Fields Medals or even the contributions are not good indicators. First math is just a tool to understand physics better, not a GOAL. There is no need to make any kind of contribution to math unless engineering demands more.  First in the US there are only 2 High Schools teaching advanced problem solving techniques for the math Olympiads. They are Thomas Jefforson and Philips Exeter Academy. But one should know that the math taught in those schools for the Olympiads is useless anywhere. Even if you are a math genius you don’t need to learn stupid, useless techniques for absolutely nothing. In the US only the math undergraduates can take the Putnam test. 3500-4000 students take the test every year.  Most of them get zero as they don’t know these advanced techniques. In 6 hours they try to solve 12 problems. Even the top 5 (Putnam Fellows) can solve usually 8-11 of them. You can see the tests of the last year.
http://amc.maa.org/a-activities/a7-problems/putnam/-pdf/2011.pdf
Even if you are a genius solving these problems brings you nowhere because this level of math is absolutely UESELESS! Almost all of the Putnam fellows end up in the academy because there is no other place that they use their skills. Sometimes the investment firms hire them as quands. However there is no need to be a Putnam fellow to be a quand. It is always claimed that the East Asians are more homogeneous than the whites but the PISA math variances controvert this belief as it is higher. The East Asians are very good in IMOs (in fact they don’t need to prove anything). They are less good in Putnam but still good as the best students enter the engineering departments. IMOs or Putnam tests are useless anyway. The Indians are terrible both in IMO and Fields Medals but one can’t blame them. Though there is no research I guess the math mean scores of the high caste Indians and Parsis must be higher than the East Asians. Also it is worth seeing their variances. Winning Fields Medals or Nobel Prizes require creative talent plus creative personality (high C, low N and high O). The East Asians lack these 3 traits but I am not convinced that they lack creative talent for the so-called reasons I explained. The Indians on this forum really seem ridiculous to me. While accusing to the Chinese as being uncreative I really wonder what is the proof that they are creative. Okay, IMOs or even the Fields Medals are useless indicators but even contribution to math is not (or shouldn’t be) the perfect indicator of math creativity as most of math today can’t be used anywhere. But if the East Asians are uncreative (also in the sense of creative talent, not only in the sense of creative personality) the Indians are uncreative too. Just see the number of the laureates by country given except PEACE! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country
Australia: 11
Austria: 16
Belgium: 6
Canada: 18
France: 12
Germany: 96
Hungary: 11
India: 6
Luxembourg: 2
Netherlands: 18
Norway: 10
Poland: 10
Saint Lucia: 2
Sweden: 25
Trinidad Tobago: 1
UK: 106
US: 311
India with its population over 1.2 billion won just 6 Nobel Prizes and Swiss with only 7 millions won 22. The comparison is ridiculous and nonsense. The East Asians may lack creative talent but we shouldn’t be sure unless it is proved in creativity tests. But are the Indians really creative? On the other hand the ones who accuse the Chinese (or generally all the East Asians) of copying and imitating DON’T UNDERSTAND the difference between math and spatial IQ. A scientist can explain the nature of electric but can’t use it in equipment. Edison or Tesla could use it because they had extreme levels of spatial IQ. They are different abilities of the brain. By the mean average spatial IQ of 110 the Chinese and the other East Asians have no rivals in the world. If anything is invented in the West they will easily copy, imitate and improve it with little study like the Japanese did a lot in the past. The first original ideas about the robotics industry (one of the 6 big hi-tech industries) initialized in the US but they couldn’t improve as they didn’t have the spatial IQ of the Japanese. Having low spatial IQ is not a disadvantage as math ability correlates more with income but be sure that even if the other nations try to do the same thing they will immediately fail.


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Posted by Indian Strategy on Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:45 | #

I made a mistake. France won 52 Nobel Prizes, not 12 with its 65 millions. India’s population is over 1.2 billion, maybe 1.6 billion. The high caste Indians (Brahmins) are said to be 4.3 percent of the population. So there is no doubt that there are over 50 millions of Brahmins and Parsis (the minimum expectation) and they are very wealthy (no excuse for not winning Nobel Prizes because (!) of poverty). Okay, then you can do the comparison. The Indians know how to accuse the Chinese of being uncreative then why could they win just 6 Nobel Prizes with a population far over 50 millions?

Finally there are certainly other factors playing roles in the growth of the countries. In fact if you go to the world fact book of CIA,
GDP per capita is:
3.700 $ for India
8.400 $ for China
11.600 $ for Brazil
16.700 $ for Russia.
The comparison of China and India is extremely ridiculous as if both countries have accomplished anything in the past. Despite the terrible inheritance of the socialism even Russia is much wealthier than both of them. When you read the comments you will see that most of them belong to Indians (yes, they are really talkative) and the Chinese don’t pay much attention to them. The Indians are trying to prove themselves and they are very prone to lying. They lie about almost everything. They send comments under a different name as if they are Americans and they are fans of the Indians’ math abilities. This fact is quite popular. Anyone who reads the Indian forums knows quite well that Indians always lie.


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Posted by Chinese Strategy on Sat, 24 Mar 2012 04:05 | #

Wow, the Chinese have nice theory about Indians.
“Indians are talkative”, “Indians work in call centers”,etc etc.
Just how many Indians do you know? Most high educated indians don’t give a damn about call centers. Most indians who work in call centers do so because they need money to sustain their family and call centers are an easy way to earn money for those know a bit of english.
After being questioned about their creativity they come up with spatial IQ theory, as well as claiming that math is useless. LOL, I am not even going to waste my time on the usefulness of math and how many areas of higher math require high spatial intelligence.

Bringing Go is absolutely useless since very few Indians even heard about that game. But in east Asia they have popular games very similar to chess - such as shogi in Japan etc. If more than 90% of go players are from east-asia, it is only too obvious that the better players will be east-asians. I hope Indians can pick up this game soon. It is true that computers find it harder to beat humans in go. However, it also true that far less people and research and money have been spent on it. And everything that computers can do well is not necessarily outside strategy.

Inventions- I don’t know about Japanese inventions, but chinese inventions have a pretty bad rep in india. There are linguistic phrases in India like “that thing will not even last as long as a chinese toy”. Chinese toys look good. Very cute. But they simply don’t last. May be it’s because that they work so hard that they forget to concentrate.

Oh and MVS’s IQ- I actually heard that her entire IQ of 200+ was a fraud or misunderstanding. Her actual IQ was 132 in childhood and close to 180 in adulthood. So, she actually increased her IQ. In any case, whatever is true, the guy had a point. Plenty of people have changed their IQs. It is not fixed.


As for nobel prizes, it isn’t like China are doing any better than India.
Both India and China were very poor countries until recently.
China are now getting rich and developed fast, India slowly.
Brahmins are not beggars, but they are rarely very rich, although brahmins do tend to be much better educated than average. It’sa cultural thing. Parsis tend to be rich though. Also, not all high achieving Indians are brahmins or parsis. Some high achievers are other high castes including khatriyas ,or kayasthas, as they are called in some places. Some are not even hindu - for example, there is a Sikh Nobel winner in science in India.


However, I don’t agree that chinese have no creativity. I also don’t agree with the guy who said that IMO is not important. Indians don’t take it seriously, but I think Indians should take it seriously. IMO and original contributions are very different. Indeed, IMO type exams require memorizing a lot of techniques, but at least IMOs do a far better job of training creativity than do normal school mathematics.

 


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Posted by Astro on Fri, 30 Mar 2012 06:27 | #

The average IQ disparity between China and India are merely due to the average literacy rate, China 95.4 and India is 74. Indians will supersede Chinese when the literacy rate comes to a par.  India has a wide social, cultural and diversity than any other nation. The Indian population can be grouped in terms of the four traditional caste super-categories:1. Brahmin 2. Merchant, 3. Peasant,4. 4.1 Dalit 4.2 (“Untouchable”) 4.2 Scheduled Caste, 4.3 Muslims with North Indian vs South Indian geographical distinction.
Rec1Man’s latest summary table: Current IQ
Southern Brahmin, 1% @ 120 IQ,
Northern Brahmin, 4% @ 115 IQ,
Southern Merchant, 3% @ 110 IQ,
Northern Merchant, 12% @ 105 IQ,
Southern Peasant, 8% @ 93 IQ, Northern Peasant, 32% @ 88 IQ,
Muslim, 15% @ 75 iQ
Southern Dalit, 5% @ 75 IQ,
Northern Dalit, 20% @ 75IQ,
Avg = 86.10 IQ
Current Flynn for India is +7.8. Hypothesized Flynn effect for India in 21st Century:
Brahmins and merchants = +5, Peasants = +7,Muslims and Dalits = +10,The Flynn for Africa =+10, Sp all these relates to education and literacy as these above classes enjoyed a advantage in terms of education.
High End Indian IQ, Over 120 IQ = 55 million,
Over 130 IQ = 20 million,
Over 140 IQ = 5 million.
Please note that in every category south Indians have 5 points more though they are fairly from a warmer climate than north and hence the cold climate advantage is a myth.
Look at American Indians. As per Forbes, When statistical adjustments are used to convert the backward digit span results to full-scale IQ scores, Indian Americans place at about 112 on a bell-shaped IQ distribution, with white Americans at 100. 112 is the 79th percentile of the white distribution. For more context, consider that Ashkenazi Jews are a famously intelligent ethnic group, and their mean IQ is somewhere around 110. Digit span data (IQ equivalents) by U.S. immigrant group indicates Europe 99, Northeast Asia 106, Southeast Asia 104, India 112, sub-Saharan African 89, Mexico 82, Central America/Caribbean 83, South America 86. U.S Indians are clearly the latest and greatest “model.” In 2007 onwards, the median income of households headed by an Indian American was approximately $83,000, compared with $61,000 for East Asians and $55,000 for whites and is still growing. About 69% of Indian Americans age 25 and over have four-year college degrees, which dwarfs the rates of 51% and 30% achieved by East Asians and whites, respectively. Indian Americans are also less likely to be poor or in prison, compared with whites. The best comparison will be with an American contest as the data’s and environments are unbiased and everyone has more or less same opportunities. The IQ for Jews in Israel is way below than an American born Jew. In shot it is not the ethnic or the race or cold climate matters, The environment, education and efforts are the key points. Coming to Buddhism which was an offshoot of Hinduism which has six philosophical schools, Infact Advaitha uprooted Buddhisam from India as it failed on philosophical grounds. Shakyamuni was an Indian Aryan , there was no Nepal at that time. Nepalese are a new set of people , Indians mixed with Asians and hence the Shakya Clan was contaminated with the Asian blood because we do not see any high caliber monks from that clan anymore. The Highest form of Buddhism is Madyamika which was quite different from Buddha’s time. Sunyavada is the brain child of Nagarjuna who was a South Indian Brahmin. Bodhidarma another south Indian monk who was an Indian prince taught Zen Buddhism to these Chinese and even the Shaolin Kung Fu was attributed to him, Can any Asian deny it?.  Sanskrit is the proto Indo-European language and decimal / Binary systems are an Indian contribution to the world which is the foundation of Mathematics. So every race and every culture has their own share of contribution.


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Posted by bulut umut on Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:42 | #

Rec1Man is just an ordinary commenter, not a scientist. His numbers of estimations mean simply nothing. The Indians in US are highly selected. They are not representative.


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Posted by Astro on Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:55 | #

If you cant digest Rec1Man, just leave it. What about Richwine immigration IQ study with Indian IQ at 112, higher than the Jew, European, and East Asian? these too are mere estimations ? What you mean by Indians in US are highly selected, Jews and East Asians are not highly selected in the Richwine immigration IQ study? The stage for study should be in equal grounds, environments and unbiased. India’s literary rate and economy are much lesser than China is due to the corrupted Indian political/social system and hence the disparity in average IQ as it adversely effect educational opportunities equally to the public as a whole. China too had gone through that phase from corruption, poverty,illiteracy and average low IQ. If you disagree then you have to admit that the forefathers of Chinese people were dumb, so IQ too is tangible, a collective IQ has to do with society. The fact remains that East Asians are the most hard working people but not the highest intelligent people. The Average IQ of Jews in Israel are way below than an American Jew, even less than average, so which one is the right representation? if you take the IQ of Jews in Israel as the right representation as per your logic then Jews are below average in Intelligence, mind around 27 Nobel prices were attributed to Jews in science, almost all from outside Israel. Your logic is that the caliber of a warrior is independent of the weapons he use which is insane, if that is the case many should have been still using bows and arrows. Countries like UK, Australia etc are racial to a certain extend and hence not representative at the moment unlike US. It is evident from Queen being the head of the state even in this 21st century for these countries. By the way the highest IQ in the world is 225 for a south Indian, non brahmin girl, Vishalini of age 11, she will be in the Guinness book by the age of 14. The Indian state and central governments have failed to recognise and appreciate Vishalini’s extraordinary achievements yet. That is India….........................


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Posted by indian strategy on Sun, 01 Apr 2012 13:59 | #

The Indians in the US earn more than the Jews but UK Indians perform worse than the British people in UK. That is why US Indians aren’t representative. If the US Indians were representative then India would be the wealthiest country in the world. You also ask an IDIOT question about why Indians in the US were representative but not the other immigrants? The average income of India is only 3.700 $ but 16.700 for Russia. A smart Indian will have a lot of reasons to emigrate to US from India. But a smart Russian won’t have much reason to emigrate from Russia to US as Russia is already wealthy (at least much better from India). Of course the very high achievers from an extremely poor, over 1.2 billion population will be able to emigrate to US. Can you expect the same quality for French or German immigrants? France and Germany are already wealthy. Why would a smart person emigrate to US? It is a BIG SHAME for India to have an average income of 3.700 $. That already explains everything. Despite the British heritage they can manage to perform nothing. Only 40 percent of population in Israel is Ashkenazim and they are immigrants from East Europe. They are less intelligent than American Jews. The ones who can’t emigrate to US can immigrate to Israel. So Israel is their 2nd choice. High scorers in conscientiousness, emotional stability (or low neuroticism if reversed) and openness work harder. That is exactly what the questionnaires say. The whites (especially the Jews) work harder, not the East Asians.


199409

Posted by Astro on Sun, 01 Apr 2012 23:06 | #

Read my post first thoroughly and then comment wisely, it includes the UK representation, UK is racial that is why a lot of unrest there and UK is no more an economy. It seems you are a very stupid person, brush up your G.K, India is the 3rd largest Economy right now not due to these smart American Indians, which discredits your theory that the smart Indians has moved out. In fact the second category of Indians has moved out as the first need not to move out as they are well off, their average IQ is in 120 range and are predominantly rich. If you cant agree,  fine, even with 74% literacy rate and with these dumb Indians how can be India in the 3rd third place in GDP cutting even Japan?. Only US and China are above India. India is much smaller (1/3rd in size) than both US and China and even Russia where Russia is not a player at all now may be in the future. Leave EU as they are not a single nation. I consider Japan is the best economy since they are a very tiny nation. If you don’t know, India too has the 2nd fastest growth rate in the world. India has the potential to be no: 1, obviously which no one can predict as India has numerous internal issues unlike any other nation. You are foolishly debating on the per capital income, man India has one billion people and hence the per capital income is less. In that way Chinese pci is way below US, Japan and western countries. Hope you agree with population, pci will come down drastically, simple maths. pci is only an average income that doesn’t mean all Indians are poor. Qatar has the highest p.c.i , their average IQ is 78 only so? obviously the population is less. You are talking about British heritage, British screwed up India man, changed the history,divided India resulted in a non ending headache for India, the Pakistan, though there are some contribution which cannot be denied. India and China both has an ancient civilization which British lacked. The European civilization is just after renaissance, quite new apart from Greece and Rome. It is true that the Europeans did well and did a lot of contribution, though drawing the key elements from other cultures, maths from Indians and gun powder from Chinese. The intention was imperialism. I am not getting into the dark ages as everybody knows about it. Mind that India was the richest country in the world prior to the Arab Invasion , both in wealth and in knowledge. Foreign invasions only trashed India.  I agree the difference with poor and rich is more there in India which is due to the wide gap in education and the corrupted social and political systems which are being corrected, such time India has to stay in the 3rd slot. Learn more about India, before posting commands. I am least bothered about jews they are a smart bunch of people doing good w/o hurting others. My intention is not to boost Indians and sub-dude others, If anyone felt like that then it was not intentional. I am against these racial morons that is all. There are smart and dumb people in every culture and race , if you cant live with it then that is your problem, It is better for you to abstain from cracking your head here as it will not yield any fruitful results !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


199410

Posted by Chinese Strategy on Sun, 01 Apr 2012 23:23 | #

A smart Indian will have no reason to migrate to USA. Firstly, things are MUCH cheaper in India. And India provides greater privacy. A smart Indian can figure that much out. A rich person living in India is effectively the richest person on earth. He will have no reason to migrate unless he works for an American company. I mean who the hell prefers to live in a place where there are cameras all over your head? And who the hell prefers to live in a place where you have to pay Euro 2 to 4 just to go to the toilet? Living in these countries will also mean adopting a very different culture.

The ones who migrate to places like australia or UK are mostly poor but bold people desperate to improve their income. If these poor uneducated people can earn some money even as drivers or barbers and then send back even half the earning back to their family back in India, they effectively make their family back in India richer. Because $100 in these countries mean very little, but mean a LOT in India. It’s a sacrifice these people make for the sake of their family. Some others that go are businessmen and can make much more money in UK than India.


Is it really a surpise these people score a bit lower in IQ tests than average? LOL!


199411

Posted by indian strategy on Mon, 02 Apr 2012 10:30 | #

It seems that you are surely an Indian as you have proved with your idiot commands. But I am not a Chinese or an East Asian. Don’t try to teach me economics as I am already an economist. India is the 3rd economy due to its population, nothing else and China is the 2nd due to the same reason. They are not success stories. America is the 1st economy and its population is greater than 300 millions. But still they have a very high income per capita though some of the populations are blacks and Hispanics. The Indians perform only in America very well, not in the other countries which proves that the very best of the Indians migrated to US. Take the Brahmins and Parsees out nothing will be left in India. The growth rates high are because of the extremely low average income and cheap labor. If everything is cheaper then migrate to Sub-saharan African countries, they are cheaper there.


199412

Posted by Astro on Mon, 02 Apr 2012 18:31 | #

You are not an economist for sure,If you are then either you are stupid or racial. Now you are saying even China is not a success story, so you are not an economist for sure everyone even idiots know that the two most success full nations in terms of growth now is China and India and the whole world is taking about it. Being an economist how do you rate a country’s growth ? can you please highlight on these please?  Why only Indians, the best performing immigrants are US immigrants, take Jews , blacks, for that matter every ethnicity, that in US. The credit is for USA that is why we have a black president. Will this happen in UK , Canada , Australia ? I doubt. Brahmins are not the richest class in India and more over they are just 5%, parsis are 0.02%, which cant give an impact in such a big country. The real factor is literacy is growing in India and other classes are getting smarter, Brahmins are no more a competition in even getting into premium schools. Those days are gone.  Why Iran is not a success full country from where the parses came ? Ethnicity changed after migrating to India ? Did they mixed with Indians ? So then India has to be credited for that in either way. They landed up in Gujarat and in Mumbai the most industrialized states in India, They resorted to business and became successful being a closed community, In fact just 2 big corporates are parses and thus they got the name, which is in fact is a pie compared to the vast Indian economy. India welcomes everybody, that is how the British crooks came in pretending for business ( East India company) and screwed up India. As I said India is a very complicated country you cannot analyse the Indian situation being an outsider by just presuming things Like you. I studied and lived exclusively with Chinese , Indians and Americans in their respective countries and I have a better picture than you. racialism and fanaticism blinds even intelligent people and may act as idiots that is what happened to you. First digests the fact that everybody is born with a brain and from the same factory the nature so the technology is same, the difference is in the environments in a social level and efforts in a personal level that is what makes people different. Then coming to genius is just around 1% and is evenly distributed hence leave it. Use your academic skills in a better way as both of us are wasting our time here. I know you will come up with some stupid argument, So I am retiring and let it be that way if we have a difference.


199413

Posted by indian strategy on Mon, 02 Apr 2012 20:55 | #

There are 5 goals for an economist which one of them is growth rate. However poor countries always have more advantage because of cheaper labor. When Japan was a very poor country in the 1960’s they had this advantage and managed to grow at a rate of 10 % per year. But when it became a wealthy country in the 90’s it managed to grow at only 1.5 rate per year because the labor was too expensive. Though there are many mistakes even the idiot writers of Wikipedia know this fact. Like I said don’t teach me my profession. India’s income per capita is just 3.700 $. Even if there is no population growth (which is impossible) in India and there is 10 % of growth rate theoretically (which is another impossible situation) 10 years later the average income will be 9.597 $ which means simply NOTHING! That is math!

3.700
4.070
4.477
4.925
5.417
5.959
6.555
7.210
7.931
8.724
9.597

If India or China manages to have the same income per capita of Russia or even Brazil one day (I don’t believe) they will no longer be able to have these growth rates like Japan couldn’t do the same thing what it did in the 60’s. Do a favor to me and don’t waste my time trying to prove your idiot comments. It is clear that you don’t understand anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Japan

With average growth rates of 10% in the 1960s, 5% in the 1970s, and 4% in the 1980s, Japan was able to establish and maintain itself as the world’s second largest economy from 1968 until 2010, when it was supplanted by the People’s Republic of China.

Growth in Japan throughout the 1990s at 1.5% was slower than growth in other major developed economies.


199414

Posted by Astro on Tue, 03 Apr 2012 00:58 | #

How can I talk to a person who cant understand the pci and the population correlation. U.K and Russia has a comparable GDP but why the pci of Russia is no where near to UK?. Cheap labor is only one of the factors, or else Africa should have been growing the most. The population growth of India will turn out to be a boon as India will be still young in the work force and will maintain more or less the same growth in the long run with a bonus of a huge domestic market, even China will be handicapped in a later stage as they have restricted the population growth. Japan’s growth was mainly due to innovation and competitive pricing. India and China were poor due to the stupid Soviet model. Anyway I have no time to waste further, have better work to do.


199415

Posted by Curious Indian on Fri, 06 Apr 2012 17:01 | #

If indian strategy is really not east-asian like he claims, i wonder what motivation he has in expressing such comments against india.
Looks like someone is suffering from inferiority complex and insecurity(,even if he or she is not going to admit it).
Another possibility is that he is simply a chinese trying to use a proxy.


199416

Posted by Astro on Sat, 07 Apr 2012 05:27 | #

You are absolutely right “Curious Indian”.


199417

Posted by indian strategy on Mon, 09 Apr 2012 20:05 | #

I think curious Indian and Astro are the same person attacking my personality because of having the disability to prove anything wrong in my comments. Sure, that is exactly the dirty, disgusting Indian style, writing comments under a different name. Anyone who reads all the comments in this web site will see how the Indians have inferiority complex and are trying to prove themselves. You are not in a situation to judge my economical comments as you are a fool. Just show my comments to an economist he will agree that I am an economist and show him your comments he will say that you are an idiot. What motivation should I have? Not all people need to be Chinese or East Asian to tell the truth (like you think so) if you believe in justice, fair, honesty. Look at the link below who (possibly an American, surely not a Chinese) claims to be a neuroscientist. Though there are some points that I don’t agree with Linda (that writing requires less g than chess) I can understand what she means by the reaction time. In solving a math problem the reaction time may be important but the other point which she forgets is that IQ doesn’t need to be limited with just understanding. Vocabulary which is said to be the best correlating subtest according to factor analysis method isn’t limited with understanding. It is also related with memory. A person with good vocabulary skills can learn the same word with having heard of 3 times while a normal person learns it with 10 times. The vocabulary skills of nations or races (whites and East Asians) can be estimated with the extrapolation method. You measure the math score of each nation and guess their vocabulary scores with how much they are better or worse in vocabulary compared to math in sd=15. Though there isn’t a research like this Lynn believes that the whites have better verbal skills.

By the way if China or India manages to have a mean income of 20.000 $ decades later (surely never ever) they will need personality traits other than IQ. When the countries get wealthier IQ plays less role. The wealthiest state of the US, California has a mean IQ of just 100 (http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQ-States.htm#P) but it is the most creative economy. That is why 60 percent of the population is democrat.

http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/05/hi-iq-not-needed-for-tennis-but-needed-for-writing.html
If you define true genius as creative achievement you might be right (although the Chinese made many of the most important inventions & discoveries long before whites), but creativity invokes personality traits other than intelligence.
But when it comes to pure intelligence, whites are no match for the East Asians. If you made a list of the 100 most intelligent people in the world, as measured by pure raw brain power and neural efficiency, information processing speed; all 100 of them would be East Asians. Above a certain IQ, whites vanish completely, and it’s ONLY East Asians. Even Ashkenazi vanish, because they are still of caucasoid stock so there are limits to how smart they can get.
Similarly, the 100 best athletes in the world would all be black.
Linda, who is the East Asian (EA) James Joyce? Mozart? Euler?”
Oh, I agree that the most creative geniuses in history would all be Caucasoid, but that’s because creativity achievement, even in fields as g loaded as math & science, depends on a lot more than just high IQ. It also depends on certain personality traits and neurological conditions that are present in whites and especially blacks, but are less common as you move to the top of the evolutionary ladder: East Asians.
But if you’re talking pure intelligence, the most intelligent people of all time were all East Asians. Every single one of them. In laboratory experiments using the most state of the art chronometric equipment, with performance measured in milliseconds, I’ve found that there are physical limits to what even the sharpest Caucasoid brain can do. And I’ve tested some of the most profoundly gifted caucasoids from all over the world. The East Asian brain by contrast is new and improved (i.e. recently evolved as East Asians are a young race(see Rushton)) and are capable of processing information far more efficiently. It’s got to the point where I wont even test you unless your East Asian because I know it’s a waste of my time.


199418

Posted by Rooboy on Tue, 10 Apr 2012 01:46 | #

nicknguyen,

I have seen the same thing in Vietnam. Having travelled through vietnam in 1997, what i saw was a ethnically backward people (IQ tests prove this, even though vietnam’s iq levels are distorted by the Lyn study and given the same rating after averaging that of Japan etc). There was filth everywhere (given vietnam has a relatively lower population that India and China, I was execting a much more cleaner and advanced society. What I saw was filthy street, woman peeing and spitting on side streets and a society that although it talks about being like Singapore and other SE asian countries, was far far far behind.

The fact is as country deveops economically, so does their general level of well being and IQ level. China’s IQ tested during the Mao period for example would be much lower than it is now….

Rooboy


199419

Posted by Astro on Wed, 11 Apr 2012 06:40 | #

Your are wrong, Astro and Curious Indian are different. I am not so cheap to provoke someone. I am only defending the truth. Your long post doesn’t make any sense. East Asians has only 3rd place in Richwine study after Indians and Jews which stands intact irrespective of which ever way you bark. East Asians are the most Intelligent people has no support other than your personal views which are obviously biased as everybody knew it and no one will take it seriously. After a certain IQ the whites vanish ? don’t make an ass yourself. All most all the scientific inventions are from whites.  Even your early posts reflects the maximum number of Nobel prices won by whites in science and there by you are contradicting your own statement, so please revise your own post before commenting which will make you an ass again. There is no evolutionary pressure for brain to evolve as before, like primitive men, Information assimilation has already superseded the natural evolution, 1-100 part. Moreover humans are not even using 10% of the brain capacity and hence a lot of room yet to be resorted. Having said this, don’t bring up another argument as “we Chinese people are using the most brain capacity from the rest 90%”!!!!!. Recent studies are showing that even the brain size is shrinking which again discredits your evolutionary theory, probably it is a devolution rather than an evolution. Most of the computational power has been shared by computers now could be another reason. It is sad that now you are trying to disprove the correlation of IQ and intelligence, which is only showing your desperation. You couldn’t keep up the debate. You could not reply to my post on April 02, 2012, 07:58 PM”, which I can understand now. So why cant you better give up, racial morns has no place in a modern society!!!!!!!!!


199420

Posted by indian strategy on Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:35 | #

I answered about the Richwine study in details before but as you are a fool you can’t understand. Read it several times, not once! Lynn measured India as 81 and that was not only one measure. It is even lower than the American blacks. Average income of India supports his study very well. That is exactly what India deserves. No one would care about India if there were not few smart races due to the caste system. The long post about the East Asians belongs to a neuroscientist, not to me. Read the whole link. Inventions and discoveries require other personal traits, not just high IQ. I won’t repeat what I wrote before because you don’t understand. You probably categorize Indians also as whites. They may be closer to the whites than the East Asians but they are absolutely not whites. Arabs, Iranians aren’t whites either! India’s only 6 Nobel Prizes except Peace prove (!) how creative (!) Indians are! I think as being a white (!) you want to share the victory of the whites’ Nobel Prizes against the East Asians. The Arabs or Iranians could also do the same thing assuming themselves as whites. Don’t worry the Europeans or Americans don’t care about the Indians, Arabs, Iranians, Pakistani etc. they are all in the low IQ category. The claim that humans don’t use their brains in the max capacity is only a myth to delude idiots like you. Evolution never produces anything which the body doesn’t use. If anything isn’t needed anymore as the environmental conditions change it disappears again with evolution by time. We have unused tooth, they will disappear in the future. I think the Indians are happy with their average income of only 3.700 $! It is extremely low but sufficient to make them happy.))) someone said ‘the Indians do not use toilet paper! They use their bare hands too for wiping their a$$! If you see a basin of water in front of an India toilet, stay away!’ yes, they don’t use as they have no Money but stil they are happy. A french, German, British or an american would hate living with only 20.000 $ but Indians are stil happy with only 3.700 $ because they are absolutely simple people! It is not worth wasting time with your idiot questions because you couldn’t understand my earlier answers before as you are a fool.


199421

Posted by indian strategy on Wed, 11 Apr 2012 21:29 | #

I really what kind of an agenda the author has by flattering India. If nutrition gets better the Indians will get smarter. One could say the same thing for Africa! So what?

In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_growth_1990–2007
You can see the growth rates between 1990-2007. Equatorial Guinea had the record with 29.03 percent per year (though it didn’t have a huge domestic market).

1.990 133.219.577
1.991 171.893.220
1.992 221.793.822
1.993 286.180.569
1.994 369.258.788
1.995 476.454.614
1.996 614.769.388
1.997 793.236.941
1.998 1.023.513.625
1.999 1.320.639.631
2.000 1.704.021.316
2.001 2.198.698.704
2.002 2.836.980.937
2.003 3.660.556.503
2.004 4.723.216.056
2.005 6.094.365.678
2.006 7.863.560.034
2.007 10.146.351.512

And it managed to grow 26.02 percent per capita annually but it is still not a miracle as the country is still very poor. But Norway at the 48th rank managed to grow 6.62 % annually though it doesn’t have a HUGE DOMESTIC MARKET (!) either. It is a miracle as Norway was already very wealthy.


199422

Posted by Astro on Thu, 12 Apr 2012 17:47 | #

As one of my Russian friend said Chinese are the most hardworking people physically that is why they are good in Kung Fu and in manufacturing jobs. where Indians are good in Yoga/Mediation and Software development and hence creative and intelligent. Richwine study proved it. Culturally once India ruled china (Buddhisam). Now due to west China has grown as they have transferred the technology and build the infrastructure for China. They proved that they are the most ungrateful people (not all Chinese, there are many good Chinese people I know) on the planet earth. See the invasion of Tibet. Since you lost the debate, you resorted to dealing in a filthy manner about cleaning ass etc. You do not deserve to be here, go to some pornographic sights and continue your discussion there, there may be people in your category there. Our discussion ends here as you could not cut any of my points and also diverted the discussion in a desperate way to fitly subjects by side tracking from the main subject. Since you are not a representation for Chinese people why I should continue with you. Any way I am posting one of my published articles here not for you but for others.


199423

Posted by Astro on Thu, 12 Apr 2012 18:03 | #

IS PERSONALITY TRAITS BEYOND GENOME

This is obviously a wonderful subject to debate and there are few critics in favoring genotypes and the others against it. The recent studies favored IQ in correlation to nueroplastry especially in childhood, stressing on envi-ronment and efforts rather than genotypes. It will be more appropriate to choose the word stereotypes instead of defining as genotypes. It is true that the early models supports genotypes in favor of IQ, the new model emphasize more on neuroplastry which happens predomi-nantly in the childhood because of the variance in those periods compared to matured ones. We are not yet in an ideal multiracial and multicultural society to assure the validity of genotypes. Even the hapmap project which carried out is basically intended for researchers to use the data for the studies pertaining to diseases rather than studying the IQ gaps in races. Another notable factor in hap map project was that the samples are extremely small Phase 1 290 , phase 2 290 and phase 3 1030,. There is no way to find the educational and environmental factors are identical as the identity of the individuals are kept as classified. More over for the sustenance of hereditary traits there should be halo types which can only happen in small groups. That is why main land Chinese have a less average IQ than a Hong Kong or Singaporean Chinese? How come African Americans has a wide gap of IQ variance with African blacks? These are the questions to be addressed. The counter argument can be the smartest has moved out from their home land, but they have not demonstrated the high IQ what they recently have with their parents who actually migrated earlier which marks as daylight that environment factors projects out always. Another objection can be that since they have migrated to other countries and if the race mixing is not much dominant then there can be more halo types, but again the time frame is extremely small to substantiate such arguments. This implies there is a strong correlation of the environments and efforts which boost once IQ and hence the gap which we see. Every ethnic group has their own social norms and set up even in a multicultural environment. The home grown terrorist are a typical example for such conclusions. By saying so I didn’t mean there is a genital factor which is favorable to IQ , the variance is genetical factors are obvious as no two DNA’s match, so such variance can be correlated to individuals with in the races to individuals among the races. Results of the US election of 2008 is an eye opener as Obama being a black. The younger and educated voters favored Obama unlike the older and less educated ones. so the racially biased category of people lies in the latter group. The same with racially biased IQ proponents too. In order to have a closer look we need to get hold of some elementary knowledge about genetics and it’s role even though we are very early in the science of genetics, still it is worth discussing it here. The DNA in our cells are comprised of four chemical building blocks adenine, thymine, cytosine and guanine , abbreviated as A,T,C, and G.  There are more than 6 billion of these chemical bases combined together in a sequence to form 23 pairs of chromosomes which defines a single human cell. There 23 pairs which are contributed from the parents with each pair has a combination of one from the mother and the other from the father. These sequencing are instrumental in defining our physical traits, possibilities for genetical disorders and diseases. The genetical sequencing of different individuals is remarkably similar to hundreds of bases. The normal variations happen at about 1200 bases, on an average. One person might have an A at the location for G for another person or either an extra base or a missing one. Each distinct letter of a chromosomal region is known as an allele, and a collection of alleles in person’s chromosomes is called a genotype. The genetic differences in bases are known as single nucleotide polymorphisms or simply SNP’s pronounced as “snips” and are in an order of approximately 10 million SNP’s estimated to occur in the human genome. Since the researchers are unable to locate as on where is a particular gene resides in a chromosome which is responsible for say high blood pressure.  they have to do a round about method by using SNP’s as markers to identify the gene.  It is cumbersome to test all the 10 million common SNP’s. of a persons chromosomes instead they can compare the SNP’s of people who have high blood pressure with people without there by identifying the gene responsible for hypertension using that SNP pointer.  Also it has been noted that the genetic variants that are nearer each other tend to be inherited together. For example a set of people can have identical genetical variations around all the SNP’s in the chromosomal region surrounding a particular variant A instead of G at a given location in the chromosome. There regions of linked SNP’s are called halo types. These halo types can be seen in a given population with concentrations of different percentages as 55% have one type of halo type another with 30% and some with 8% and the rest can have a variety of less common type of halo types. These are spread across evenly with in races than among races. This again discredits the correlation of IQ advantage with particular races. Every race has an identical genome makeup of a 99.9 % only. The disparity is in halo types which are universally spread and hence the race and IQ correlations are a myth. American Jews were famous for their highest IQ which was now over took by Indians in the Richwine Study Indicates that race has nothing to do with IQ. Environments, efforts and halotypes which are spread across the races rather than within races indicate that IQ is tangible. Since this is the era of globalization such differences should be uprooted even in the embryo stage to build a peaceful multicultural society worldwide.


199424

Posted by Curious Indian on Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:06 | #

LOL, this guy thought that Astro and I are the same? Poor intuition!
Based on that post, he definitely seems to identify himself more with east-asians, but calls he is not one! It seems either he is a chinese trying to use a proxy, or may be he is some sort of half-breed.

I have considered another possibility and rejected it - which is that he is related to the blog and wants the blog to be alive, but I don’t think that’s the case - racist attitudes like his are common.

Astro, you are indeed right. Primitive men had larger brains. Also, math or physics majors, who have much higher IQs, actually don’t have that much larger brain.
More importantly, google “neurogenesis”. Recent research has shown that even human adults can grow new brain cells. London Taxi Drivers literally grow their brain size.

BTW, there are many computers that can score 160+ easily in an IQ test.
Perhaps you guys should know that during the development of AI it was found that knowledge and adaptability are far more crucial than the long detailed algorithms and computations. The reason why the best human chess players can go toe to toe with supercomputers is because humans are able to remember more patterns, even though they compute much less.

Strategy, About vocabulary - you will be surprised to know that the average educated indian knows 3, or at least 2, different languages. That’s 3x vocabulary.
Some schools give importance to Sanskrit, a difficult language - that’s 4x vocabulary.

Oh and let me remind you, 2.2 GHz quad core can easily be much faster than a 3.6 GHz single core pentium. So even if there was a case that chinese brains carry signals faster, it will not mean that they process more. But there is no solid proof for even that.

And you call us dirty because we defend our country? What kind of a dirty coward are you? you hide behind internet anonymity and curse another country that you know very little about.

Perhaps you should watch this:
David Suzuki destroys Rushton, the guy you racists cling to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&feature=player_embedded&v=i9FGHtfnYWY

I have a lot of respect for the Chinese, but not racist bastards like you.
And yes, we Indians are happy with our normal life. If that hurts you so much, too bad.


And Astro, since you talk about genes and environmental effect, you might be interested in this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4ZzjKxFHM
Richard Lewontin breaks many heritability myths.
Also check out videos on EPIGENETICS to understand how genes and environment interact.


199425

Posted by indian strategy on Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:55 | #

You lost the debate (as if there was any). I answered every question of yours in details and again and again you ask the same stupid questions. If you read my 622nd post there is no huge market advantage like your stupid 615th post claims so. You turn to the Richwine study though the Indians perform worse everywhere else except US. You should ask this to Lynn, not the author of this web site. As to the toilet paper just read the 17th post in this forum and the 20th post as a reply to that. Yes, that is exactly the typical character of the Indians like I observed in many other forums.


199426

Posted by Astro on Fri, 13 Apr 2012 02:54 | #

@Curious Indian,You came up with some good points, we must root out any racial morons whether it is Indians, Chinese or whites. I just watched the Suzuki / Rushton debate. Ruston totally lost. As Suzuki said Ruston should have been fired from the westen university. I don’t know how come Ontario government allowed and funded such morons with public money, Liberal party has to be blamed for this as they are in power in Ontario for some time. Did you noticed even Rushton admitted that 50% are environmental factors which catering to IQ score, see that makes the whole difference. This Rushton is another idiot, How could he became a professor of psychology, I dont know. He never considered the EQ which is a vital factor for enhancing the IQ, Cultural and religious factors enhances the EQ, not ethnicity. As you know racial people always have a lower IQ as well as EQ,  that is why they cant win a debate and will resort to filthy arguments. This Chinese guy initially came up with some good though common points which I refuted all of them, then he came up with p.c.i and cheap labor argument, due to his low IQ he cant even understand that with population p.c.i will come down. Or we need a very huge GDP. China is 3 times bigger than India in size and in resources so naturally the GDP will be more and hence in pci too in a INDIA VS CHINA scenario, though there are other factors. He skipped to respond to my quote.“U.K and Russia has a comparable GDP but why the pci of Russia is no where near to UK?.“population is the answer which he dont know or cant admit Cheap labor is only one of the factors, or else Africa should have been growing the most.?” no answer for this!!! . This guy could not even understand what I quoted “The population growth of India will turn out to be a boon as India will be still young in the work force and will maintain more or less the same growth in the long run with a bonus of a huge domestic market, even China will be handicapped in a later stage as they have restricted the population growth” What I said is that the population growth will turn out to be a boon (a luck) for India and will have a huge domestic market in the future in India itself and also a young work force” poor guy did not get it. As population grow the domestic market will also grow with in the country.  He couldn’t catch it. He claims he is an economist,  most probably a high school drop out for sure. It is very simple a person with high IQ can never be racist. Everyone knows that Brain has unlimited capacity, can store unlimited data unlike a computer. This stupid guy argues evolution will not produce anything which is not useful. How do evolution knows that we are going to use gadgets like computers to store data which is in a way depriving us to use the more potentiality of the brain as we are resorting to computers, stupid guy.” See David Susuki even being an east Asian origin, he is against such racial morons why because he is living in a multiracial society unlike this idiot may be from some rural province from China interested in toilet papers only. May be we should only deal with sensible Chinese fellows who are living in a multicultural society. Did you noticed his comments on toilet paper, filthy guy. I will watch the other videos later thanks for the link and dropping in.


199427

Posted by indian strategy on Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:20 | #

The reaction time measures the period of the process of understanding, not the period of the electric signals in the brain. If the process is faster the electric signals should be faster. That is what she says so. She doesn’t say ‘as the electric signal are faster they understand faster’ but she says that as they understand faster their brains must have faster electric signals’. It seems you didn’t understand. In fact she says just the reverse of what you understood.))) If you read (I wouldn’t in fact advise as I know that you won’t understand) The G Factor of Arthur Jensen which is said to be the best book about the science of mental abilities in the history he approves that the reaction time is one of the biological correlates of g. One doesn’t need to be a neuroscientist to measure the reaction time. The psychologists also do it.

Africa has the youngest work force (!) and no luck. Not only the idiot writers of Wikipedia but even the MOST IDIOT people on earth know this. I read your stupid comments to laugh, not for anything else. But you are going very well, I suggest carry on writing tones of extremely idiot sentences so that the people can understand why there are lots of idiots in India and why the mean IQ is extremely low. You prove that India is just 81, not any more. You are a perfect Indian and you represent your country very well. As to Gordon’s lie in the 17th post it is not surprising to see the simplicity of the lie and that he even doesn’t think of changing his Indian name. Even lying requires some honor (!) and a little bit IQ. The Indians can’t have even that level.


199428

Posted by indian strategy on Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:27 | #

By the way the reaction time is measured with milliseconds. They ask you a simple question and you give the answer in less than a second.


199429

Posted by Curious Indian on Sat, 14 Apr 2012 13:32 | #

Yes, Astro, indeed you made some very valid points on topics such as p.c.i that he/she was unable to respond to.
And let me just point out another thing -  if you notice - Rushton, Jensen, Lynn, Linda Gottfriedson etc - they are all psychologists or social scientists. They are not qualified biologists, nor mainstream scientists as much as they would like to claim so.
Whereas if you notice the videos I posted - the likes of Suzuki, Lewontin - and others such as Graves, Luigi Sforza etc - most of them are geneticists or qualified biologists.

Sir Richard Feynman had spoken volumes about how psychology, social sciences and related fields are not exactly real sciences. They follow some scientific forms, but for the most part, these are “cargo-cult science” practiced by pseudo-scientists , often motivated by certain political agendas. And they end up INTIMIDATING people. He even compared psychiatrists with witch doctors.

To understand how they intimidate, you just have to look at the likes of Rushton. In his speeches, he will say that he has drawn his conclusions based on statistics. He will base his lectures on statistical concepts such as G-factor, which he claims is very highly heritable, without giving the slightest idea to normal people what this thing really means. He will just avoid saying they are complex.

However, if you ask a real statistician, they will tell you that this whole G-factor is nothing more than a STATISTICAL ARTIFACT.  The whole concept of g-factor is based on correlations. The idea is that the IQ questions which correlates best with other questions(answering one makes you likely to answer others) are the one with highest g-load. Then they use the concept of factor analysis to make a jump from correlation to make statements that imply causation.

The whole thing is a logical fallacy really and is based on cyclic logic. They have confused correlations with causation. In fact, an IQ test is SELECTED/RATED to be a good IQ test IF ONLY it CORRELATES with other IQ tests. Can you see the cyclic logic here?
In general, this g-factor is closely correlated to working memory. However, even working memory can be trained like muscles. Practicing games like dual-n-back has shown to improve it.
And get this - the FLYNN EFFECT IS STRONGEST on tests which are more g-loaded like the Raven’s progressive matrices and which also tend to be less culturally biased .

To understand better, I suggest you read a guy called Cosma Shalizi. You may also read an article called “Misuses of statistics in the study of intelligence” by Jack Kaplan.
In fact, one should question the very validity of IQ tests Jus because they are objective doesn’t make them valid.
Shalizi - he writes - If asked to continue the sequence “1, 1, 2, 3, 5”, most readers would recognize the Fibonacci sequence and say “8”. But there are infinitely many other sequences where the next number is 7 (e.g., pick the largest prime number less than or equal to the sum of the previous two numbers), or for that matter 11 (the smallest prime number greater than or equal to, etc.). Similarly, what Raven’s matrices test is not how well you can “deduce relations”, but how well you can find the patterns RAVEN LIKED— personally, I can solve such puzzles only by guessing what was going through the test-maker’s mind.


Feynman also points out the lack of importance of talent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr8sVailoLw

Apart from confusing correlation with causation, another reason why psychologist or social scientist find it hard to do real science is because they deal with what is known as complex systems. The human brain, the human society etc are complex systems. In complexity science there is a concept of EMERGENT PROPERTY. These are properties of the whole systems that are not found in the parts.  Intelligence is an emergent property. Something as a simple as a simple IQ score can’t determine something as complex as intelligence. It’s like trying to judge the health of a person with blood pressure alone.

Now I am quite liberal and I believe in having the freedom express your opinions and doing research, but Rushton is not a real researcher - he is a pseudoscientist funded by racist organizations.


————————————————

And Strategy, reaction time is by no means the same as processing power. It just measures how quickly you respond to something. The response itself may be preprogrammed.
An it is a hard thing to measure. For example, professional tennis players bypass the biological limits of reaction time by responding to the ball by following the opponents body movements.
Smilarly, while average digit-span is believed to be around 7 digits. By practicing properly for several years, one can extend the digit span to as high as 100 or even more. Similarly, a chess player can train himself to play bliindfold chess games. These are not general skills, but applies to very specific skills with a lot of practice. It’s called expert working memory, different from general working memory..

In general, the speed of decision making seems to depend on a substance called myelin. The more myelinated you brain connections are- the quicker you make decisions. however, the amount of myelination seems to be largely influenced by environment.
Not all parts of the brain are equally myelinated. The parts that you use more are myelinated more. Starting something like playing a musical instrument early may also result in greater myelination of the relevant connections.

And myelin may be a doubl-edged sword. While it may make you act fast, it may also make it harder to rewire the relevant connection - making you closed-minded or slave of a habit.


199430

Posted by indian strategy on Sat, 14 Apr 2012 15:40 | #

It is my fault to think that you and the idiot Astro are the same. It is quiet clear that you must be much smarter than that idiot. And it is a shame for you flattering that idiot. I know that correlations don’t need to be the causations but you should know that both in the social sciences and hard sciences the researches are made like this. For example in the countries which have the highest population growths and the lowest average age (they are the same) the economical growth rates are generally low. Economists have always thought that the population growth was the main reason. They thought that there was a correlation between the two. It is quiet related with Rushton’s r-K theory. The families which have more children have generally lower IQ. It goes the same for the nations and races. The testosterone hormones spend more energy and not much is left for the brain. Though I am quiet liberal and support the freedom of expression I don’t think there is anything wrong with what Rushton claims. Suzuki made one big mistake. He talked about the meaningless of race and then he again said that there was a greater diversity within a race than between 2 races. He denies the existence of race and says this.

As to the reaction time I don’t think it can be programmed unless you learn the type of questions before. And I think you can’t learn otherwise the reaction time would be meaningless. They ask a simple question related with IQ and you are supposed to answer correctly in less than a second. It is one of the correlates of g but not the g itself. Among all the subsets the vocabulary is said the have the highest g loading. What it means is the high scorer in the vocabulary test has the highest chance to do better in the other tests. Vocabulary has a lot to do with memory, not just understanding. In America all the enrichment programs like Head Start, Abecedarian Project, Perry Preshool, Milwaukee Project failed to increase the IQs of the children. The most expensive and the most successful program was Abecedarian and it was less than 5 points at the age of 15. IQ at childhood is quiet environmental but at adulthood it goes to its genetic orbit.


199431

Posted by Dumb Indian with a BIG mouth on Sat, 14 Apr 2012 15:42 | #


” Yes, Astro, indeed you made some very valid points on topics such as p.c.i that he/she was unable to respond to.
And let me just point out another thing -  if you notice - Rushton, Jensen, Lynn, Linda Gottfriedson etc - they are all psychologists or social scientists. They are not qualified biologists, nor mainstream scientists as much as they would like to claim so.
Whereas if you notice the videos I posted - the likes of Suzuki, Lewontin - and others such as Graves, Luigi Sforza etc - most of them are geneticists or qualified biologists.

Sir Richard Feynman had spoken volumes about how psychology, social sciences and related fields are not exactly real sciences. They follow some scientific forms, but for the most part, these are “cargo-cult science” practiced by pseudo-scientists , often motivated by certain political agendas. And they end up INTIMIDATING people. He even compared psychiatrists with witch doctors. “——-Curious Indian


***Perhaps you don’t need a scientist, natural or social, to point out what’s the obvious, unless of course one has a 2-digit IQ part from curious?

 


“To understand how they intimidate, you just have to look at the likes of Rushton. In his speeches, he will say that he has drawn his conclusions based on statistics. He will base his lectures on statistical concepts such as G-factor, which he claims is very highly heritable, without giving the slightest idea to normal people what this thing really means. He will just avoid saying they are complex.

However, if you ask a real statistician, they will tell you that this whole G-factor is nothing more than a STATISTICAL ARTIFACT.  The whole concept of g-factor is based on correlations. The idea is that the IQ questions which correlates best with other questions(answering one makes you likely to answer others) are the one with highest g-load. Then they use the concept of factor analysis to make a jump from correlation to make statements that imply causation.

The whole thing is a logical fallacy really and is based on cyclic logic. They have confused correlations with causation. In fact, an IQ test is SELECTED/RATED to be a good IQ test IF ONLY it CORRELATES with other IQ tests. Can you see the cyclic logic here?
In general, this g-factor is closely correlated to working memory. However, even working memory can be trained like muscles. Practicing games like dual-n-back has shown to improve it.
And get this - the FLYNN EFFECT IS STRONGEST on tests which are more g-loaded like the Raven’s progressive matrices and which also tend to be less culturally biased . “——-Curious Indian


*** The fact that no everyone (indeed not many) can be trained like Schwarznigger or Usian Bolt contradicts your claim that working memory can be trained like muscles. And working memory (rote learning) is not g even by a long shot.  The logical fallacy is what you’re claiming that g= working memory= trained. 

 

“To understand better, I suggest you read a guy called Cosma Shalizi. You may also read an article called “Misuses of statistics in the study of intelligence” by Jack Kaplan.
In fact, one should question the very validity of IQ tests Jus because they are objective doesn’t make them valid.
Shalizi - he writes - If asked to continue the sequence “1, 1, 2, 3, 5”, most readers would recognize the Fibonacci sequence and say “8”. But there are infinitely many other sequences where the next number is 7 (e.g., pick the largest prime number less than or equal to the sum of the previous two numbers), or for that matter 11 (the smallest prime number greater than or equal to, etc.). Similarly, what Raven’s matrices test is not how well you can “deduce relations”, but how well you can find the patterns RAVEN LIKED— personally, I can solve such puzzles only by guessing what was going through the test-maker’s mind.


Feynman also points out the lack of importance of talent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr8sVailoLw

Apart from confusing correlation with causation, another reason why psychologist or social scientist find it hard to do real science is because they deal with what is known as complex systems. The human brain, the human society etc are complex systems. In complexity science there is a concept of EMERGENT PROPERTY. These are properties of the whole systems that are not found in the parts.  Intelligence is an emergent property. Something as a simple as a simple IQ score can’t determine something as complex as intelligence. It’s like trying to judge the health of a person with blood pressure alone.

Now I am quite liberal and I believe in having the freedom express your opinions and doing research, but Rushton is not a real researcher - he is a pseudoscientist funded by racist organizations. ”——-Curious Indian


*** Individual examples-exceptions can be discredit IQ test. 

True, IQ tests can not measure complex systems like brain so accurately so far.  Yet that is not the point,. The point is that the tests are statistically valid to correlate and predict.  It´s like even though a primitive sand timing device (IQ tests) can not count timing of 100m sprint (IQ) accurately due to various contraints, it can still pretty much tell who is fast(high IQ), who is slow(low IQ) and what are the general differences, in spite of the fact that the sand device that we have is not Rolex.

Nothing to do with causation here as we are dealing with the cause, yet. Correlation implied is enough to tell this story. 

Yes, simple things CAN and ALWAYS determine something complex, as complex as intelligence. That´s the whole beauty of science, isn´t it?  With simple quartz watch alike computing power, high IQ people went to the Moon decades ago.  Yet with the help of billions of donations and countless sophitiscated int´l bodies around the world for decades, low IQ people of India and Sub Sahara Africa still live in mut huts on top of garbage piles. That´s all you need to know.

 

 

”  And Strategy, reaction time is by no means the same as processing power. It just measures how quickly you respond to something. The response itself may be preprogrammed.
An it is a hard thing to measure. For example, professional tennis players bypass the biological limits of reaction time by responding to the ball by following the opponents body movements.
Smilarly, while average digit-span is believed to be around 7 digits. By practicing properly for several years, one can extend the digit span to as high as 100 or even more. Similarly, a chess player can train himself to play bliindfold chess games. These are not general skills, but applies to very specific skills with a lot of practice. It’s called expert working memory, different from general working memory..

In general, the speed of decision making seems to depend on a substance called myelin. The more myelinated you brain connections are- the quicker you make decisions. however, the amount of myelination seems to be largely influenced by environment.
Not all parts of the brain are equally myelinated. The parts that you use more are myelinated more. Starting something like playing a musical instrument early may also result in greater myelination of the relevant connections.

And myelin may be a doubl-edged sword. While it may make you act fast, it may also make it harder to rewire the relevant connection - making you closed-minded or slave of a habit. ”——-Curious Indian


*** ....errr, seems right, unless you can provide solid evidences that 6-year-old kids or even much younger babies ( add any groupings of adults if you want) from high IQ countries who have been taking IQ tests have been specificly trained for Working Memory as you´ve accused, in order to fetch a faster reaction time than say kids/adults from low IQ countries such as India.


199432

Posted by Dumb Indian with a BIG mouth on Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:01 | #

***Nothing to do with causation here as we are NOT dealing with the cause, yet.  IQ tests seperate 2 groups of people consistently.  Correlation implied is enough to tell this story.


199433

Posted by Astro on Sun, 15 Apr 2012 01:04 | #

@Dumb Indian/Big mouth, You have some great points and will be always fun to debate in an intelligent way not like that Chinese idiot who skips from one to another w/o keeping up the debate he cant answer. Hope you don’t do that
Your quote:-***Perhaps you don’t need a scientist, natural or social, to point out what’s the obvious, unless of course one has a 2-digit IQ part from curious? –

Statistics are always based on probability, they are tangible, and depends on a set of variable factors, they are not abstract. There are not yet any solid race-genetics based study.  Even the hap map project which carried out is basically intended for researchers to use the data for the studies pertaining to diseases rather than studying the IQ gaps in races.  IQ variations depend on the environments, classical examples are American Indians, American jews, and American blacks vs their own country. Suzuki is a Genius

Your quote:-*** The fact that no everyone (indeed not many) can be trained like Schwarzenegger or Usian Bolt contradicts your claim that working memory can be trained like muscles. And working memory (rote learning) is not g even by a long shot.  The logical fallacy is what you’re claiming that g= working memory= trained. 
*** ....errr, seems right, unless you can provide solid evidences that 6-year-old kids or even much younger babies ( add any groupings of adults if you want) from high IQ countries who have been taking IQ tests have been specificly trained for Working Memory as you´ve accused, in order to fetch a faster reaction time than say kids/adults from low IQ countries such as India.

There is a point what you say everyone cannot became a Schwarzenegger but how many Schwarzenegger’s are there? Same way How many Einstein’s are there? So Genius category will be always there in IQ too which cannot be trained. But everyone can be trained and develop a muscular body with workouts. So to get a 3 digit IQ from 2 digit can be done easily.  If you take the 200 million middle class ppl in India which is growing who has adopted the 2 child policy are all in 3 digit IQ categories . Even my own experience which I have restrained to expose so far was it may sound racial. My primary schooling was with Chinese, 80% were Chinese but not even one Chinese kid could stand even with in top 7. If you take mere statistics as you prefer then all of them has a low IQ, how can 80% have a low IQ ? Impossible right ?,

Chinese situation is different “Entire attention on one child from the parents in terms of nutrition, education etc cannot be denied as they have resorted to the one child policy, not due to low testosterone loading but due to government policy, Chinese and Indians both were notorious in testosterone load , evidence is in population. Rushton is wrong again
 
Memory is unlimited, Brain is the most plastic organ than anything, neuroplastry is the key to IQ enhancement. There are many cases that people are leading a normal life even after removing the most parts of the brain itself. Neural paths can be easily rewired
Your Quote:- Yes, simple things CAN and ALWAYS determine something complex, as complex as intelligence. That´s the whole beauty of science, isn´t it?  With simple quartz watch alike computing power, high IQ people went to the Moon decades ago.  Yet with the help of billions of donations and countless sophisticated int´l bodies around the world for decades, low IQ people of India and Sub Sahara Africa still live in mut huts on top of garbage piles. That´s all you need to know.

Statistics is not science man, Science is beautiful for sure but even science or mathematics has limitations as Godels theory proclaims it. There are self referral statements which are not even computable; Even Allen Turing has admitted it. The highest IQ ppl went to moon is true as always the notable scientists are in genius category, But mind their ancestors were living in a more muddy conditions in the Europe in the dark ages.,These people were ruled for more than 1000 years by Romans,due to low IQ ?. West became smart after renaissance only, Why due to IQ mutation or the over night renaissance? .Chinese ppl were also living in mud and were a set of dumb and poor ppl take 50’s, yet all are not still out from it.  Western civilization uplifted them with globalization; west build the entire infrastructure for China.  But everybody forgets that the base for moon mission is science, and the base for science is mathematics ( decimal / Binary systems both are the inventions of Indians, not like silly things as gun powder and paper ). Albert Einstein acknowledged this due to his unbiased and sensitive mind which recalls his greatness not only as a great scientist but also as a great personality.  In his own words “ We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made”-Albert Einstein”. Obviously some one in his genius category can only acknowledge this as such ppl will also have a high EQ too. “If Indians had a patent on decimal system then India should have been the world Bank.

“Yes, simple things CAN and ALWAYS make something complex,ex:- decimal system. But simple things cannot determine complex things.

Take quantum mechanics, even string theory is failing. Determinism totally failed.  Brain is the most complex system, science is a child in front of it. Even genetics will not help as long as there are unpredictable factors due to freewill, brain capacity and plasticity unlike Turing systems which are predictable. that is why AI will be doomed to be failed.  The intelligence will be always be shrouded under mystery. How can you even think a simple statistical system can predict the most complex system the brain ……You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to infer such simple observation. If you reply try to stay in the subject unlike the other guy. You could not cut any of Curious Indians points, He may have another full set loaded for you…..........


199434

Posted by Curious Indian on Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:34 | #

@indian strategy
Thanks for the compliments, you seem better than what I thought, but I don’t think I have done anything wrong by defending my fellow countryman Astro.

I agree with your view that correlations may not always be useless, but they are never enough to show a causal relationship- no matter how high. And if you are being paid to announce highly offensive and highly useless study results without even having the need to establish a causal relationship - there is a need to be concerned. That’s what Suzuki said, basically. And there is no contradiction in what Suzuki said. Biologically race is not very meaningful, but there is obviously a social notion of race - people report themselves as belonging to some race.

If you ask Lewontin, he will tell you that Rushton has interpreted the r-k theory upside down. Graves will tell you that r-k theory is false entirely.

yes, vocabulary has high g-loading. The reason I avoided vocabulary is because it should be quite obvious that it has a cultural bias and someone motivated enough and having access to proper resources should be able to pick up new words. Like I said, an average educated Indian knows about 3 languages. From my observations, plenty of Indians from all social classes pick up new words much faster than I do and my own vocabulary isn’t that bad - I know several languages plus a few programming languages. If vocabulary is indeed an important measure, then I am almost certain that there is a cultural bias in tests if Indians don’t score high in some tests.

Many experts think that things like backward digit span which is closely related to working memory are closely related to g. And to me, it indeed seems if Indians indeed have some kind of deficit it’s more likely to be in working memory than vocabulary.To give an example, in India we have
10^3= thousand, 10^5 = Lakh, 10^7 = crore and so on.
In west, they have
10^3= thousand, 10^6 =million, 10^9= billion and so on
In Japan, they have
10^4= man, 10^8=oku, 10^12=choo and so on.
Notice the difference in increments. It seems that the Japanese, because of their system, are forced to remember chunks of 4 digits, whereas we Indians only need to remember chunks of 2 or 3.
Simple things like these, if experienced from early childhood, can actually make a difference in working memory.

About pre-programmed responses, even if you don’t know the exact question, there is always a difference in the degree of familiarity to certain sets of questions and that can make a big difference.

@BIG mouth

firstly, what we see is not necessarily what can be. I am not claiming that everyone can be as fast as Bolt, but I am quite sure that Bolt himself would not be Bolt without training.
secondly, I already mentioned a game which has produced results in improving working memory.Obviously, it can be trained.
thirdly, working memory =/= rote learning and plenty of experts believe that g is very closely related to working memory.
fourthly, my claim was closer to:
g= has close connections with working memory , not the most important thing , can be improved by training (just like muscles).

<Yes, simple things CAN and ALWAYS determine something complex, as complex as intelligence. That´s the whole beauty of science, isn´t it?  With simple quartz watch alike computing power, high IQ people went to the Moon decades ago.  Yet with the help of billions of donations and countless sophitiscated int´l bodies around the world for decades, low IQ people of India and Sub Sahara Africa still live in mut huts on top of garbage piles. That´s all you need to know.>
Do you even know what a complex system means? If not, please don’t display you ignorance.
Is that why the best experts can’t predict the weather 10 days ahead? Or can’t predict the stock market for next month?And in fact, our best prediction methods are based on computer simulations and complex calculations - NOT SIMPLE LAWS. And an IQ score is merely a simple measure, not even a law like the law of universal gravitation. It can hardly tell anything.
There is a reason why they call it complexity science - there are no KNOWN simple laws. And in fact, in complexity science they say something similar to “a butterfly flapping its wings in a country like India can cause an F5 tornado in your country”. If I were you, I will never underestimate Indian butterflies or African mosquitoes. Nor will I underestimate the complexity of intelligence. And BTW, you didn’t go to moon, did you?? That’s all you need to know.


<errr, seems right, unless you can provide solid evidences that 6-year-old kids or even much younger babies ( add any groupings of adults if you want) from high IQ countries who have been taking IQ tests have been specificly trained for Working Memory as you´ve accused, in order to fetch a faster reaction time than say kids/adults from low IQ countries such as India>
Can you provide solid evidence that these 6 year olds never got any necessary training? Perhaps certain environments put greater demand on working memory right from birth?  And how exactly do you test for working memory of little babies? Can you provide solid evidence that a 6 year old will definitely respond a certain way if you just tell them to? Can you provide solid evidence that they will never disobey you or not take the test correctly?

@Astro
BIG mouth is by no means any better than strategy, you are being way too nice to him. The language he uses is probably worse. He is obviously a racist.

BTW, you probably know ,but not all godel statements are based on just self-reference, some are based on infinities. In fact, one Turing’s proof is based on the fact that countable infinity is not the same as uncountable infinity.


199435

Posted by Curious Indian on Sun, 15 Apr 2012 11:42 | #

I am reposting the big-mouth portion because the reference comments did not appear.

@BIG mouth
Perhaps you don’t need a scientist, natural or social, to point out what’s the obvious, unless of course one has a 2-digit IQ part from curious?

Or perhaps what needs to pointed out depends a bit on the culture you are a part of? And did I hit a nerve here by pointing out the obvious?/ Does the obvious truth hurt? Why?


The fact that no everyone (indeed not many) can be trained like Schwarznigger or Usian Bolt contradicts your claim that working memory can be trained like muscles. And working memory (rote learning) is not g even by a long shot.  The logical fallacy is what you’re claiming that g= working memory= trained

.
firstly, what we see is not necessarily what can be. I am not claiming that everyone can be as fast as Bolt, but I am quite sure that Bolt himself would not be Bolt without training.
secondly, I already mentioned a game which has produced results in improving working memory.Obviously, it can be trained.
thirdly, working memory =/= rote learning and plenty of experts believe that g is very closely related to working memory.
fourthly, my claim was closer to:
g= has close connections with working memory , not the most important thing , can be improved by training (just like muscles).



Yes, simple things CAN and ALWAYS determine something complex, as complex as intelligence. That´s the whole beauty of science, isn´t it?  With simple quartz watch alike computing power, high IQ people went to the Moon decades ago.  Yet with the help of billions of donations and countless sophitiscated int´l bodies around the world for decades, low IQ people of India and Sub Sahara Africa still live in mut huts on top of garbage piles. That´s all you need to know.

Do you even know what a complex system means? If not, please don’t display you ignorance.
Is that why the best experts can’t predict the weather 10 days ahead? Or can’t predict the stock market for next month?And in fact, our best prediction methods are based on computer simulations and complex calculations - NOT SIMPLE LAWS. And an IQ score is merely a simple measure, not even a law like the law of universal gravitation. It can hardly tell anything.
There is a reason why they call it complexity science - there are no KNOWN simple laws. And in fact, in complexity science they say something similar to “a butterfly flapping its wings in a country like India can cause an F5 tornado in your country”. If I were you, I will never underestimate Indian butterflies or African mosquitoes. Nor will I underestimate the complexity of intelligence. And BTW, you didn’t go to moon, did you?? That’s all you need to know.


errr, seems right, unless you can provide solid evidences that 6-year-old kids or even much younger babies ( add any groupings of adults if you want) from high IQ countries who have been taking IQ tests have been specificly trained for Working Memory as you´ve accused, in order to fetch a faster reaction time than say kids/adults from low IQ countries such as India
Can you provide solid evidence that these 6 year olds never got any necessary training? Perhaps certain cultures and environments put greater demand on working memory right from birth?  And how exactly do you test for working memory of little babies? Can you provide solid evidence that a 6 year old will definitely respond a certain way if you just tell them to? Can you provide solid evidence that they will never disobey you or not take the test correctly?


199436

Posted by Dumb Indian with a BIG mouth on Sun, 15 Apr 2012 12:31 | #

Astro:

—-Statistics are always based on probability, they are tangible, and depends on a set of variable factors, they are not abstract. There are not yet any solid race-genetics based study.  Even the hap map project which carried out is basically intended for researchers to use the data for the studies pertaining to diseases rather than studying the IQ gaps in races.  IQ variations depend on the environments, classical examples are American Indians, American jews, and American blacks vs their own country. Suzuki is a Genius—-

***  Excuse me, but I am not used to argue with double-digit IQers as I usually loss patience due to that fact that I don’t know from where to start correcting them…just countless dumb claims one after another….  Oke, that you don’t see race-based genetics doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Many race-based genetics are there, for ages, yet they are censored by mainstream media.  “classical examples” you raised are in fact classic fallacies which can be easily refuted as they have been numerous times.  Suzuki is a liberal idiot btw, to put it mildly.

——There is a point what you say everyone cannot became a Schwarzenegger but how many Schwarzenegger’s are there? Same way How many Einstein’s are there? So Genius category will be always there in IQ too which cannot be trained. But everyone can be trained and develop a muscular body with workouts. So to get a 3 digit IQ from 2 digit can be done easily.  If you take the 200 million middle class ppl in India which is growing who has adopted the 2 child policy are all in 3 digit IQ categories . Even my own experience which I have restrained to expose so far was it may sound racial. My primary schooling was with Chinese, 80% were Chinese but not even one Chinese kid could stand even with in top 7. If you take mere statistics as you prefer then all of them has a low IQ, how can 80% have a low IQ ? Impossible right ?,—-

***oh my, you still don’t get it, do you? My Schwarzenegger analogy has nothing to do with “how many”, but “how to become”…

***India has 200m middleclass? What’s the definition of Indian middleclass?  “Own 1 mobile phone, a coloured TV and a 3-wheel (or more) vehicle” according to Indian govt.  By the same definition, there are probably 200 million plus middle class in prosperous superpower Sub Sahara Africa as well….

***As for your primary school example, in my primary school and high school, almost all top 5 were ethnic Chinese… your point is?


—- Chinese situation is different “Entire attention on one child from the parents in terms of nutrition, education etc cannot be denied as they have resorted to the one child policy, not due to low testosterone loading but due to government policy, Chinese and Indians both were notorious in testosterone load , evidence is in population. Rushton is wrong again——-

*** Genetically the Chinese are drastically different from the Indians.  In fact they are almost mirror images as the Whites and the Blacks. Only SOME Indians from Northeast India have relatively low testosterone (then again, Indians by and large don’t have evolutionarily advanced features that East Asians have) due to admixture with their Mongol conquers several hundred years ago. Vast majority of Indian have High testosterone instead.  It proves that Rushton is right. 

 
—-Memory is unlimited, Brain is the most plastic organ than anything, neuroplastry is the key to IQ enhancement. There are many cases that people are leading a normal life even after removing the most parts of the brain itself. Neural paths can be easily rewired—-

***… “brain part removal”, “easy neural path rewiring” ? where? In India?  Perhaps after those operations, you could give me a ring to have a drink…


—-Statistics is not science man, Science is beautiful for sure but even science or mathematics has limitations as Godels theory proclaims it. There are self referral statements which are not even computable; Even Allen Turing has admitted it.—-

*** Statistics is one of the most important tools of modern sciences.  Godels and Turing…what they have anything to do with discrediting stats ?

—-The highest IQ ppl went to moon is true as always the notable scientists are in genius category, But mind their ancestors were living in a more muddy conditions in the Europe in the dark ages.,These people were ruled for more than 1000 years by Romans,due to low IQ ?.—-

*** warm climate is one of the key reasons for jump-starting ancient agrarian economies. How early one had an agrarian economy has little to do with one’s IQ. In warm climates such as India and Sub-sahara Africa, you drop a seed carelessly today and forget it, it will grow into a fruit tree tomorrow.  Yet both India and Africa have been major food importers and the UN food aid recipients for decades… No surprise there.


—-West became smart after renaissance only, Why due to IQ mutation or the over night renaissance? .——

*** Black Death curled a large section of lower class +  huge infusion of advanced Chinese tech through Chinese/Arab merchant fleet/s in Italy + competitive and free social/economical environments… , based on already high average IQ of indigenous Europeans.


—-Chinese ppl were also living in mud and were a set of dumb and poor ppl take 50’s, yet all are not still out from it.  Western civilization uplifted them with globalization; west build the entire infrastructure for China. —-

***Yet with the same globalisation, and with more investments, worldwide large scale donations and the UN Food Aids for decades, India and Sub-Sahara Africa haven’t been lifted by the West even under democratic rules.  How come the Chinese made it and India/Africa failed?

 

—-But everybody forgets that the base for moon mission is science, and the base for science is mathematics ( decimal / Binary systems both are the inventions of Indians, not like silly things as gun powder and paper ). Albert Einstein acknowledged this due to his unbiased and sensitive mind which recalls his greatness not only as a great scientist but also as a great personality.  In his own words “ We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made”-Albert Einstein”.——

*** Einstein was drunk and tried to be PC.  Chimps knew how to count bananas long before the Indians did, didn’t they?

 

——Obviously some one in his genius category can only acknowledge this as such ppl will also have a high EQ too. “If Indians had a patent on decimal system then India should have been the world Bank.
“Yes, simple things CAN and ALWAYS make something complex,ex:- decimal system. But simple things cannot determine complex things.—-

***Many countries, China for example In I’Çhing, claim invented decimal system long before India.  The fact that Indians have big mouthes compensates for their dismal brain power.  Well, God is fair.

 
——-Take quantum mechanics, even string theory is failing. Determinism totally failed.  Brain is the most complex system, science is a child in front of it. Even genetics will not help as long as there are unpredictable factors due to freewill, brain capacity and plasticity unlike Turing systems which are predictable. that is why AI will be doomed to be failed.  The intelligence will be always be shrouded under mystery. How can you even think a simple statistical system can predict the most complex system the brain ……You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to infer such simple observation——-

***Determinism totally failed only according to you? 

***A simple statistical system CAN predict complex star formations and the beyond in galaxies billions light years away, let alone the tiny brain of yours…


—— If you reply try to stay in the subject unlike the other guy. You could not cut any of Curious Indians points,  He may have another full set loaded for you—-

***after Hindu “brain part removal” and “easy neural path rewiring”, perhaps?

 

 


199437

Posted by indian strategy on Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:15 | #

Curious Indian, you obviously know absolutely nothing about the experiments in the US, otherwise you wouldn’t ask for solid proofs. IQ can not be improved, that was the final conclusion of all the experiments in America.

http://www.arthurhu.com/index/aintell.htm

@@Abecedarian Project

IF YOU PUMP $10,000 A YEAR INTO POOR BABIES, THEY’LL GAIN 5 IQ POINTS
BY AGE 15, AND YOU’LL “PREVENT POVERTY”

This study claims that if you pump lots of money into poor kids at
birth, you can improve IQ at levels that stick around even at age 15,
compared to Head Start which starts at 3 to 5, and generally fades
out in an IQ gap. Note that even this study after 15 years has
subjects with an IQ of 94 which is still below average, and only 5
points above the control group, at a cost approaching $10,000 per
child for the first 5 years of life when most rich kids don’t get any
formal schooling at all except from their parents.

ABCEDARIAN CLAIMS PRESCHOOL FIXES IQ WITHOUT FADE-OUT
“What it might take to defeat poverty: A North Carolina Program that
starts teaching at birth is based on the idea that preventing the
setbacks of poverty is more effective than trying to compensate for
them” Seattle Times Dec 5, 1996 A3 Richard Whitmire. Study with
subjects now 21, concludes that IQ can be changed, but Head Start
starts way too late at 3 to 5, it must start in the first months of
life with trained experts. [ mothers are obviously not good enough]
Craig Ramey oversaw Abecedarian and another $33 million experiment on
low birthweight children. That program raised IQs by 13 points.
Godfrey Oakley ran a $2.5M program based on ab. methods. CDC proposed
$10,000 per year, $300 million over 5 years but shot down by Clinton.
z45\clipim\2000\10\14\abced.efx abced1.gif

IQ DIFFERENCES DID NOT STICK, BUT KIDS DID BETTER IN LIFE IQ
differences disappeared as kids aged in Mich. project Richard
Whitemire Gannett News seattle Times Dec 15, 1996 A3 High/Scope Perry
Preschool Study tracked 123 poor black children for 27 years. “Only”
7 percent of program group had been arrested vs 35% of the control
group. 4x earned $2,000 or more a month, 3x owned homes, fewer
received welfare, marriages lasted twice as long, females had fewer
out of wedlock babies. Claims that the program saved society $7 for
every $1 in cost. However, IQ differences washed out by age 10

IQ differences vs control group
3.0 84.27 100.70
3.5 93.04 102.96
4.0 89.19 101.22
4.5 91.09 101.22
5.0 93.82 101.43
6.5 92.26   98.45
7.0 91.82   98.12
8.0 93.33   97.83
12.0 88.44 93.74
15.0 90.34 94.98

Claim - differences did not fade completely, but 15 point gap has
narrowed to less than 5 points.

NY TIMES SAYS ABECEDARIAN WORKS
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/102299early-childhood-edu.html
New York Times October 22, 1999 Quality Day Care, Early, Is Tied to
Achievements as an Adult.  The Abecedarian Project involved 111
African-American families in Chapel Hill, N.C., whose infants were
medically healthy but, demographically, at risk for failure 35% vs
15% in 4 yr college. 30% vs 56% repeat grade, over 19 vs 17 child,
below avg test scores, iq gap 17 at age 3, 5 pts by age 21

NEWSWEEK: ABECEDARIAN SHOWS GAINS AT AGE 15 VS HEAD START
Craig Ramey of the University of Alabama in 1972 launched the
Abecedarian Project.  Children enrolled in this program from ages
ranging from 4 months up to 8 years were found to still score higher
in math and reading at age 15 than the untreated, with an average
retained IQ advantage of 4.6 points, with earlier treatment lasting
longer.  Intervention after age 5 showed no benefits. “Your Child’s
Brain ” Newsweek Feb 19, 1996 p. 61


199438

Posted by dumb chinese with small dick and 2mm eyes on Sun, 15 Apr 2012 15:25 | #

LOL ,Chinese claiming high IQ with stupid statistics.Can anyone name any chinese / east asian genius scientist or mathematician?.Most of their Inventions are just random discoveries,that too discovered over a long period.Most of them are insignificant too.They have no solid scientific proofs.Their mathematic contributions are just pathetic.What do chinese have today?.Only third rate copy paste stuff,with technology stolen from european countries.


199439

Posted by Astro on Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:30 | #

@ Big mouth Oh god, I think these Chinese IQ figures are manipulated, as there are controversy on this , could be true that is what I am getting from your answers

 

***oh my, you still don’t get it, do you? My Schwarzenegger analogy has nothing to do with “how many”, but “how to become”…

We are talking about how many ” Average IQ level ” of countries implies numbers right ?. how to become is by enhancing,economy, literacy, nutrition etc. Genetics only plays when it comes to Genius, Artists, poets, musicians, athletes etc which are born and spread across races which only fit into what you say. Doctors and Engineers can be made not born.

***India has 200m middleclass? What’s the definition of Indian middleclass?  “Own 1 mobile phone, a coloured TV and a 3-wheel (or more) vehicle” according to Indian govt.  By the same definition, there are probably 200 million plus middle class in prosperous superpower Sub Sahara Africa as well….

Oh god that is not what I meant, I am talking about the middle class IQ level in India.

***As for your primary school example, in my primary school and high school, almost all top 5 were ethnic Chinese… your point is?

That is ok anybody can say anything, I talked the truth - my experience , you your experience,  this cannot be disputed so leave it.


*** Statistics is one of the most important tools of modern sciences.  Godels and Turing…what they have anything to do with discrediting stats ?

***Many countries, China for example In I’Çhing, claim invented decimal system long before India.  The fact that Indians have big mouthes compensates for their dismal brain power.  Well, God is fair.

Get proofs we will have a party with a Chinese girl

Yes man statistics is only a tool not science, google about Godel incompleteness theorem even applicable to mathematics, then let alone statistics, if you have an average IQ then you will get it.

—-The highest IQ ppl went to moon is true as always the notable scientists are in genius category, But mind their ancestors were living in a more muddy conditions in the Europe in the dark ages.,These people were ruled for more than 1000 years by Romans,due to low IQ ?.—-

*** warm climate is one of the key reasons for jump-starting ancient agrarian economies. How early one had an agrarian economy has little to do with one’s IQ. In warm climates such as India and Sub-sahara Africa, you drop a seed carelessly today and forget it, it will grow into a fruit tree tomorrow.  Yet both India and Africa have been major food importers and the UN food aid recipients for decades… No surprise there.

This is not the answer, both Romans and Europeans lived in same conditions - that is why I said IQ has nothing to do with intelligence , your answer itself proofs it.

—-West became smart after renaissance only, Why due to IQ mutation or the over night renaissance? .——

*** Black Death curled a large section of lower class +  huge infusion of advanced Chinese tech through Chinese/Arab merchant fleet/s in Italy + competitive and free social/economical environments… , based on already high average IQ of indigenous Europeans.

Ha ha ha-Europeans got it from Arabs who intern got it from Indians - You are making your own history Get some proofs for this we will have a second party with 2 Chinese girls man

***Yet with the same globalisation, and with more investments, worldwide large scale donations and the UN Food Aids for decades, India and Sub-Sahara Africa haven’t been lifted by the West even under democratic rules.  How come the Chinese made it and India/Africa failed?

Who said India failed ? India is the 3rd largest economy, mind India is only 1/3rd in size of China, don’t act dumb. What is the place of Africa in GDP do you know ? Sudan has the highest GDP in Africa which is in the 69th place, Why this idiotic comparison with Africa?.awake, I thought you are more smarter ?

*** Einstein was drunk and tried to be PC.  Chimps knew how to count bananas long before the Indians did, didn’t they?

Einstein was drunk? that is how he got theory of relativity & special relativity ? wow see the Chinese brain!!!!!!!!!, you are becoming a chimp now, Yes except Indians everyone was only counting bananas like chimps, nobody could even imagine in millions and billions and in decimals and fractions, complex numbers etc and higher maths,

Indian mathematicians made early contributions to the study of the concept of zero as a number,[5] negative numbers,[6] arithmetic, and algebra.[7] In addition, trigonometry[8] was further advanced in India, and, in particular, the modern definitions of sine and cosine, complex numbers, Linear equations were developed there.[9] These mathematical concepts were transmitted to the Middle East, China, and Europe[7] and led to further developments that now form the foundations of many areas of mathematics. not just counting - Google it

***A simple statistical system CAN predict complex star formations and the beyond in galaxies billions light years away, let alone the tiny brain of yours…

Why a statistical system cant even predict a weather accurately? then let alone star formations

Why a statistical system cant even predict a stock market ? Human behavioral patterns play a great role here - learn about “free will ” - Curious Indian has good points here.

You still didn’t get it brain is the most complex organ than any star formation, because consciousness is expressed through brain, w/o consciousness nothing makes sense, that is what the tiny brain do mmmmh


Chinese pictorial character based language enhances the spacial IQ may be true with a trade off in verbal IQ is again a mix and match. it is again an environmental situation…...that is all I have to say man


your own Chinese news follow the below link


china becoming low IQ


199440

Posted by Astro on Sun, 15 Apr 2012 19:04 | #

@ Big mouth, Sorry the earlier Link didnt work. Your own Chinese TV, watch this please !!!!!!!!!!!

Chinese IQ is shrinking


199441

Posted by Astro on Sun, 15 Apr 2012 19:51 | #

@ Big mouth, there is a correction

your quote***Yet with the same globalisation, and with more investments, worldwide large scale donations and the UN Food Aids for decades, India and Sub-Sahara Africa haven’t been lifted by the West even under democratic rules.  How come the Chinese made it and India/Africa failed?

Who said India failed ? India is the 3rd largest economy, mind India is only 1/3rd in size of China and hence, don’t act dumb. What is the place of Africa in GDP do you know ? Even south Africa is only in 25th place, Nigeria is 30th. Why this idiotic comparison with Africa?. I thought you are more smarter ?


199442

Posted by indian strategy on Sun, 15 Apr 2012 21:15 | #

IQ is one of the many parameters affecting the average income of a country. The discussion here always seemed pointless to me as both countries are extremely poor and still be very poor decades later. What interests me is the guess of Kenichi Ohmae who guessed everything correctly up to now. The Japanese economy grew so fast in the 80’s that the rents of the real estates went up like a rocket. In 1989 the value of the real estates only in Tokyo was greater than all the real estates in America, that is to say if you sold only Tokyo you could purchase America. But 10 years later the value of the real estates was less than 20 percent. Ohmae guessed the exact value of the real estate market in 1999 only in 1987 realizing that though the value of the real estates was going up manipulatively the number of the unrented real estates too was increasing. The banks couldn’t see the relationship and continued mortgaging the estates. He knew the collapse of the real estate market and bank crisis in the 1990’s. Though being a nuclear engineer Ohmae has a far-seeing talent than any other economist. If he doesn’t see any chance for China in the future I would surely bet he should be right. ))) Though really it is not necessary I would like to learn what he thinks for India.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/opinion/why-do-chinese-read-fewer-books-57424.html

Another is an article in the Wall Street Journal: ‘Will China Go to A Low IQ Society?’ author Zhang Tao http://chinese.wsj.com/gb/rssall.xml started the article quoting a paragraph from Japanese scholar Kenichi Ohmae’s “Low-IQ Society” published several years ago, expressing his concern on national quality. It states: “When traveling in China, I found that massage parlors are everywhere, but bookstores are hard to find. On an average, the Chinese people spend less than 15 minutes a day to read, only a small portion of the reading time of the Japanese people. China is a typical ‘low IQ Society,’ with no hope of becoming a developed country in the future.”


199443

Posted by Curious Indian on Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:03 | #

These days I remain a little busy, so I will not be able to reply very frequently.

@indian strategy

I am not sure what one or two of the studies you posted really prove. I think they don’t prove anything at all.
I have seen all kinds of studies with all sorts of claims. You can never trust psychological studies. And most studies seem to agree that IQ can be raised AT LEAST temporarily. In fact, even the study you posted seems to agree with that to a certain extent. Others argue that there has been at least partial long lasting changes.


IQ obviously can be changed. The Flynn effect is good enough to show that. The dutch IQ increased by more than 20 points in 3 decades with virtually no immigration.
And like R.Lewontin said in the video that I posted, even Identical twins don’t have identical IQs - in fact, their IQs can differ by more than 20 points.
In fact studies show that in tests like Raven’s PM, you can rise the score of the subjects by at least 5-6 points simply by motivating the subjects enough.

Now you can say that some particular kinds of tests like general knowledge or vocabulary don’t seem to rise much with time, but like I said, anyone with common sense can tell that these components are likely to have a large cultural bias as well as motivational bias. Quite clearly, an average American will not know many things that a typical Indian will know and vice versa.

To bring back the witch doctor analogy of Feynman - suppose someone is ill and you try to treat that person. You say that I have tried honey, I have tried olive oil, I have tried carrots and I have spent lots of money and tried almost all herbs that I heard about. But this person despite showing some temporary improvements doesn’t seem to get cured fully - therefore this disease is incurable. The problem is- while you might draw such easy conclusions, someone with more advanced knowledge of medicine can actually prove you wrong by treating the patient with more advanced medicine like antibiotics. The same applies to these psychological studies of IQ.


@Astro
I told you, you are are just being way too nice to big mouth. He doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about. He is just blinded by his anti-India sentiments.

And you are correct, children with half their brains removed can perform fairly normal in various tests. The brain is very plastic.


199444

Posted by indian strategy on Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:50 | #

Let me first explain something. I don’t have the time and patience to answer every question here but I try best as I can. No, there is no test in the history which raised the IQ more than 20 points. If you don’t trust the psychological studies then why do you trust the Flynn effect? There is the critic of the study you mentioned. The enrichment studies in America are the most expensive and trusted ones worldwide as they are funded by the government and are supervised from both sides (right handed racists and left handed liberals) and the liberals have responsibility to the government. A charlatan may easily come up with a claim that he managed to raise the IQ of the children with hard work by changing or teaching the type of questions etc (I think this is the way in India). No, he can’t do any trick in America because he is being watched by everyone, the racists and moreover the government supervisors. The people should be satisfied that their taxes are not wasted by the government. There are numerous studies and there is not even one study that could raise the IQ of the children only 5 points at age 15! Abecedarian was very close to it. The Head Start costed multibillionaire. The racists say ‘we watched this film before’ because every time the liberals come up with different new claims that they will try new methods. Anyway the IQ scores gained faded out but there were other social outcomes of these experiments for the society. Racism has different meanings. One can claim that IQ is genetic but IQ doesn’t need to be the most important genetic trait. The term inferior or superior depends on what is demanded by the environmental conditions and they can always change. And finally James Watson, the cofounder of DNA and winner if Nobel Prize is known for his views that the blacks are genetically less intelligent than the whites. I think he deserves more attention than unqualified idiot geneticists like Suzuki.

http://www.neoeugenics.net/TRC.htm

Flynn states this fact succinctly, “Moreover, data whose quality cannot be challenged have posed the same question. The Dutch military data, like those of Israel, Norway, and Belgium, are near exhaustive; but even better, Vroon compared a sample of the total population of Dutch examinees with the scores of their own fathers. There is simply no doubt that Dutch men in 1952 had a mean IQ of 79 when scored against 1982 norms. Has the average person in The Netherlands ever been near mental retardation? Does it make sense to assume that at one time almost 40% of Dutch men lacked the capacity to understand soccer, their most favored national sport?”
Of course not, and that is why the Flynn effect is not taken seriously as an increase in real intelligence, because we just do not see one generation as more intelligent than previous ones, on a myriad of social indication scales. One would have to assume that the Greek philosophers were all mentally retarded, and yet wrote with such elegance that we still read and try to interpret their works today. It is absurd. And not one scholar in this book believes that real intelligence is changing but ever so slightly over time from environmental effects.
He goes on, “However, a careful survey of serious Dutch publications revealed not a single reference to a dramatic increase in cognitive ability or escalating giftedness among schoolchildren. The number of inventions patented in fact showed a sharp decline over the last generation (Flynn, 1987a, pp. 172, 187). . . . This means that in 1918, when scored against today’s norms, Americans had an average IQ of 75 on tests in which the crystallized component is at least as great as that of the Wechsler tests. Does that mean that during World War I about half of White Americans lacked the capacity to understand the basic rules of baseball?”


199445

Posted by Astro on Sat, 21 Apr 2012 02:58 | #

@Curious Indian, I think this guy “Big mouth” seems to be a genuine one, that is why he did not get back to us with some kind of insane argument, like normally the racial morons do, that is why I was nice to him. Hope this answers your concern.

Your argument on Flynn effect cannot be disputed sanely.  Multiple studies have documented significant IQ gains over time even by changing the test patterns. Data from both developed and developing nations show IQ gains over time, most notably in culturally reduced tests like the Raven’s Progressive Matrices. The hypotheses that resonate best with the findings are those related to parents’ literacy, family structure, and children’s nutrition and health. This doesn’t mean that all ancients were dumb, the contributions in philosophy / science whether ancient or modern are all from a specific category of people ( genius ) spread across races/nations and nothing to do with an average high IQ of a particular nation or society rather than a trend prevailing in those societies in a particular period. EX:- Greeks were after philosophy, Romans were after Imperialism, Indians were after spirituality, Chinese were after martial arts, Europeans were after Science & Technology. Now everybody is after science and technology, these are the trends. Average IQ can be elevated with the early mentioned factors, which helps in building up better economies and nations for sure.

I found an interesting paper below on this proving the Flynn effect substantiating your argument. Your points were very thoughtful and up to the mark.


Intelligence


199446

Posted by Curious Indian on Sun, 22 Apr 2012 15:17 | #

@indian strategy

I thought you will ask this. I indeed don’t take psychological studies too seriously. That includes everything, including the Flynn Effect. However, in logic, it is far more EASIER TO DISPROVE something than it is to prove something. In logic and mathematics, there is a term called “Proof by counterexample”. If you have a theory and you want to disprove something, it is enough to show a counter-example. What the Flynn Effect does is that it provides a counter example to the claim that “IQ cannot be raised”. Therefore, it is more credible than the heritability hypothesis.

On the other hand, the claim that “iq cannot be raised” can only be disproved and not proved using counterexample. To prove such a claim one requires much more precise understanding of biology which may as well be far beyond modern science.

When you try to prove something, the important thing is not how much money you pour, but what methods you use. I already tried to explain that in my last post using the medicine example. The methods used to prove that IQ cannot be raised look very dubious to me.

James Watson never put it the way you put it here. The words he used were much more ambiguous. And while he might be a very important figure, he is only one old man- the majority of geneticists do not believe in genetic determinism. Too bad Crick is isn’t alive. I would be very interested in what he had to say.

Can I ask you something? What makes you think that IQ is any different from chess? IQ tests ask a certain type of question that has to be answered in a certain manner. What is your argument for saying that it is not real IQ if you study for it? In chess, master players specifically train for gaining knowledge of patterns inside the chess board. Nobody says that it is unfair to win by studying. So why is it wrong to gain IQ by studying?

And you said yourself that the rise of IQ as in flynn effect is not a real rise in intelligence. Then perhaps, IQ ITSELF IS NOT A REAL MEASURE OF INTELLIGENCE? You are again making a mistake - IQ and number of inventions -  the quality of inventions - etc - these are all very different things.


As for why IQ fades away by adulthood in some studies - I think it’s possible that there are some very good reasons for that. Firstly, notice that IQ is a relative measure. Therefore, if you stop getting intellectual stimulation and others do not , you start to fall behind in the relative terms. Several factors can easily cause you to get lesser necessary intellectual stimulation for IQ. Such as:
1> Extreme Poverty
2> Your Culture - it can cause you to have a very different set of GK and vocabulary than what’s required in these tests
3>Perhaps most importantly - your personal interests. This may be somewhat genetically influenced- but who the hell said that playing baseball makes you a lesser human being than doing physics?

And BTW, most of those test subjects in those USA based studies were Africans, not Indians.

@Astro
I don’t know what you mean by genuine, but what he said sounded pretty racist to me as he was insulting the Indians. But may be, like you said, he should be given the benefit of doubt as long as he doesn’t come back with more stupid comments.

Indeed, the flynn effect has a tremendous presence, simply because it is able to provide a counterexample.

If you ask me, I feel that IQ is not really that important, just like scores in schools are not that important. These are more like the side effects of the actual medicine and the not the medicine itself. Real intelligence or talent probably lies in emotional characteristics, knowledge of what’s important and the ability to pay attention.


199447

Posted by indian strategy on Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:37 | #

You are wrong. Watson put it exactly that way. Here are 2 of many links.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/18/science.race/index.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fury-at-dna-pioneers-theory-africans-are-less-intelligent-than-westerners-394898.html

As to Crick, the other co-founder of DNA and Nobel Prize winner, he was found to be guilty too as a supporter of Jensen and eugenics. Today we have his letters.

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/01/francis-crick-james-watsons-partner-was.html

Also in Crick’s letters we learn about William Shockley, the inventor if transistor and Nobelist in physics that he too was a racist and eugenicist. By the way here I have to explain that both Shockley and Alvarez (2 Nobelists) missed Terman’s IQ test with a few points. They were not among the 1500 students (140 IQ or higher). One reason was Terman’s test included only verbal questions and no math questions and both were math prodigies and lacked verbal talent. Also as a child, could Dr. Alvarez have spoken English as a second language, and have faced special problems on an English-based IQ test. Second as an inventor Shockley had very high spatial talents which many mathematicians even don’t have. Shortly though he was very talented both in math and spatial the test measured his weakest talent, verbal. Anyway it is good to know that he believed in racial differences in IQ and was eugenicist. If we go that way I have to remind that the greatest inventor Nikola Tesla too was a supporter of eugenics if you read the book of Margaret Cheney
http://www.margaretcheney.com/tesla___man_out_of_time_87234.htm

I have no idea about if the majority (!) of the scientists don’t believe in the racial differences in IQ. First science doesn’t work by voting and secondly the founders of DNA and many other famous Nobelists or inventors-scientists did believe. That is enough for me. Who the hell is the idiot Suzuki?

Your medical explanations don’t mean anything (that the brain is so plastic or what so ever). It is much easier to prove that IQ can’t be raised that it can be raised. If one can’t score better even if he took a long enrichment program and trained that is already over for any discussion. If one scores better in an IQ test some years later we have to be suspicious about if he learned the type of the questions. Then he wouldn’t be able to answer a different type of question and type of questions are limitless unlike the similarity of the positions in chess otherwise computers wouldn’t be able to beat the world champs. That is the difference. If one is trained only in verbal or math questions and if he can do better in spatial tests then I would be convinced that his IQ increased and due to the experiments in the US there is not an accomplishment like this. Furthermore even the biological correlates of g (reaction time, glucose rate in the brain) are not changing no matter how much the brain is plastic. If there is an increase in IQ there should be other correlates of it changing. As to Flynn effect it is possibly the misinterpretation of the different pattern of the questions in the tests. There is no necessity to make a big research but the questions about the Flynn effect are clear. If the Dutch men in 1952 had a mean IQ of 79 when scored against 1982 norms does it make sense to assume that at one time almost 40% of Dutch men lacked the capacity to understand soccer, their most favored national sport?” or the other question is Does that mean that during World War I about half of White Americans lacked the capacity to understand the basic rules of baseball?” The questions are so stupid that it is really not necessary what kind of a misinterpretation of pattern exists in the tests. It is true that most of the experiments were done with the blacks, whites and some adoption studies with the East Asians etc. I don’t know if there were any about the Indians but what would differ? Science is universal. Do you mean the others have solid brains but the Indians have plastic brains so that they could be taught better? Even your sentence contradicts you and has some real basis of racism.

There are many other clues about the racial differences that the cold weather selected the best men hunters who thought ahead and used the tools better (verbal and spatial) so the bell curve of the men is much greater than the women in cold climates. The reason why the people of Inuit living in Siberia have 90 IQ is because of very low population they were not highly selected and mutated. In Africa there was no selection due to the cold weather and the women have larger bell curves. Only in cold regions the men of the smart races have larger curves than the women. And the Jews used Judaism as an evolutionary strategy (Kevin MacDonald) for eugenics. That is why they have better verbal and math scores. Due to the caste system some Indian races did the same thing. That is why they have similar genetic diseases with Ashkenazim.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0718_050718_ashkenazim_2.html
This is the first time I see Lynn’s last table in http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/IQ+and+Global+Inequality?cx=partner-pub-0939450753529744:v0qd01-tdlq&cof=FORID:9&ie=UTF-8&q=IQ+and+Global+Inequality&sa=Search#979
Lynn estimated India as 82. He also agrees that India suffer malnutrition more than Africa. The Indians worship the cows instead of eating. Lynn’s study has been criticized. I don’t know how much he might have manipulated. But I know about his studies about the Jews. He first found the Backman study representative and later changed his mind (though it is known as the best and most representative study) and one unrepresentative study in Britain. Anyway it is very likely that there may be many errors in his table like that Laos as 89, Thailand as 91 or Vietnam as 94. I don’t know if there were migrations to these countries from the cold regions. Anyway it is likely that the mean IQ can increase in India with nutrition and better health care. But India’s climate can’t have selected for high IQ in the past. The other possibility is that there were migrations from Eastern Europe and Central Asia as the link supports. And the other chance is the high heterogeneity. And lastly there was the eugenicist strategy in the high castes. Though the estimations for the East Asian countries seem to be highly manipulated for me I don’t think the Indians have any chance in math except the high castes. And yes, maybe the East Asians are good in pictorial memory as they remember thousands of symbols but might (?) lack vocabulary skills as they can’t learn languages fast.

http://tanmoy.tripod.com/bengal/races.html

Northwest India shares with west Asia and eastern Europe (and pockets in Africa and South East Asia) the maximum heterozygosity known among world populations, with means between 0.35 and 0.37; and the rest of India (and Europe) is only slightly lower: 0.33 to 0.35. This shows the vast amount of admixture that has gone on in these regions: to be contrasted against Australia which has a homozygosity of less than 0.25.

However, there is significant admixture of the Central Asian populations, more in the North than the South and even less in the Northeast, and more among the upper castes than among the lower.


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Posted by abcd on Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:24 | #

There are 9 scientist of Indian origin who are in list of Philip Barker’s world’s top 1000 scientist/mathematician.Among these 3 had done their work in abroad and rest 6 had done their work in India.


rest 6 are-1 Parsi-H.J.Bhaba.
          1 tamil-S.ramanujan.
          4 from bengal-J.C Bose,S.N Bose,C.V Raman,M.N.Saha(All from univ.of calcutta)

from usa-1.Punjabi-H.KHorana
          1.Tamil-S.chandrasekhar
          1.up-Ashoka .J.Prasad.

Now Venkat Raman Ramakrishnan will be added on that list from abroad.


and in top category two other from calcutta-Sir Ronald ross,Subhas mukherjee can be added as later was recognised Lately.AND Ronald Ross was India’s first Nobel prize winner among their total 9 nobel prize winners.
         

From china-Probably 6 ethnic Chinese(including,taiwan,hong kong) are in the list and all are Huns.


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Posted by Jungle on Wed, 25 Apr 2012 05:12 | #

According to Law of the Jungle, a Mongol or Chinese have to be very clever or he will die soon. Story of Genghis Khan or Emperor Taizong explain the theory clearly. The core of chinese culture is “the Law of the Jungle” instead of Confucius. The Saint (Duke of Zhou) respected by Confucius had killed brother to be king. As we all know, Confucius’s culture is totally meaningless.


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Posted by Harry on Wed, 25 Apr 2012 14:21 | #

It’s meaningless to show how successful and intelligent the top 10k are. The score mentioned is about the average or median of the whole population. Go back to love your underrepresented people, rather than tell everyone here you are a different type. Stop discrimination of the lower cast people, so your country can have a better score.


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Posted by abcd on Wed, 25 Apr 2012 16:28 | #

@harry

    is your post a reply to my previous post?

      If that is the case then I can say not every whites are Newton,Galileo Or Da Vinchi.

  The people I have mentioned belongs to different ethnics.You have made a whole mess of caste and ethnicity.In india there are 28 states and 7 more central occupied region and there are many ethnic groups.But unfortunately apart from 3 indian states others have not contributed anything.The city calcutta has brought more laurels to the country than entire rest of the nation.Those bengali or Tamils are two different ethnic groups-not upper caste.Expand the horizon of your knowledge;otherwise don’t make stupid comments.


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Posted by Curious Indian on Thu, 26 Apr 2012 18:54 | #

@indian strategy
Your entire post was basically just about claiming how some famous scientists have been in favor of genes determining IQ and IQ being important.(part1)
However, after that I feel that you have almost completely ignored or misunderstood the other points I was trying to make.(part2)

While replying to part2, I couldn’t help but agree with Astro that you seem to go in circles without making any real point.

<u>Part1</u>

I was aware of Shockley’s view-point, I wasn’t really aware of Crick’s.
Watson never said it as directly as you are making it, but I honestly can’t guarantee what his actual view points are.
Firstly, neither Watson, nor Crick discovered the DNA. They discovered the structure of it. The idea of DNA was already there in the 19th century.
One thing I do believe in is that there should be freedom in research. I believe that sometimes your support for freedom of research can be mistaken as you believing a certain thing when it might not be true.
I think it should be noted that Watson or Crick have done very little racial research themselves and were mostly just backing other people doing research. However, some their comments indeed sound a bit racist and not just supporting research.

However, I am always going to be skeptic about claims made about dead scientists. I am much more willing to listen to living scientists - those who are alive - and in their own words. And I am pretty sure that the vast majority of today’s geneticists do not believe in genetic determinism. Today, the much more accepted view point is that genes and environment interact - making “determinism” vitually meaningless
For example- here is what Craig Venter says:“We simply do not have enough genes for this idea of biological determinism to be right”

As for dead scientists, I can easily produce a list of equally famous or possibly much more famous people who didn’t support racism. Here is one- Albert Einstein. I already showed you how Feynman doesn’t believe in the importance of talent. His views were largely echoed by many of the greatest intellects in mankind’s history. Darwin didn’t believe in Eugenics either. He opposed the view points of his cousin Francis Galton.

Nobel Prize winner biologist John Cairns believes that evolution itself might be somewhat adaptive to the environmental pressure.

So what does a few famous people having outdated and biased racial or genetic-determinism views mean? Nothing, I would imagine.

 

<u>Part2</u>

You completely missed my medicine example. I wasn’t just talking about brain-plasticity. I was talking about this- just because someone has tried hard or spent money and was unable to completely cure a disease doesn’t mean that the disease is incurable. Read it again if you didn’t understand.
Also, read my points about proof by counter-example.
you said: “It is much easier to prove that IQ can’t be raised that it can be raised.”
NOPE! This is totally ridiculous because of the two above points.


When it comes to Flynn Effect, you completely ignored the main question I posed : Perhaps what this Flynn effect proves is that IQ itself is not a real measure of intelligence? It’s hardly a surprise that there is some correlation between IQ and well-being, given that our society selects people for jobs on the basis of IQ.
You can’t have double standards - if the dutch IQ has increased, for whatever reason, then so can the Indian IQ.

And you completely ignored my question as to why it is OK to study in chess, but not study for IQ tests. Where is your evidence that those who score high in IQ have not gathered the relevant knowledge?

I don’t know if there were any about the Indians but what would differ? Science is universal.

I think you are mistaken, there is no science here at all.

The idea that Indians don’t have the capacity for spatial thinking is your hypothesis, your imagination. There is no evidence for it. Perhaps we are reversing the cause and effect here? Maybe the Chinese are good at pictorial stuff precisely because they have to remember so many letters at an early age?

 


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Posted by Curious Indian on Thu, 26 Apr 2012 19:09 | #

One correction: Cairns didn’t win the Nobel, my mistake, but he is/was a prominent biologist.


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Posted by 1234 on Fri, 27 Apr 2012 21:01 | #

@Curious Indian

I must point this out to you that Crick-Watson was largely a duo over-hyped by media. I have seen some laymen who actually “remember” that these two “discovered genetics”.
The work of Frederick Griffith, Oswald Avery or Erwin Chargaff were much more important than these two.(None of them got the Nobel)
Erwin Chargaff said that their chemical knowledge was rather poor.
They just collected the findings from their colleagues, assembled them and presented it as their own, by building this model.
The work of Wilkins and Franklin was also very important, probably at least as important as that of these two. Franklin died, so only Wilkins shared the Nobel with these two, but Wilkins is not nearly as popular as these two.

Overall, I must say that you made some excellent points.


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Posted by indian strategy on Sat, 28 Apr 2012 15:27 | #

Curious Indian, it seems that you confused everything and didn’t understand some points.

1 – IQ is genetic
2 – IQ is important
3 – Some races have higher IQs

These 3 are all different things. The word ‘racist’ is used for many different meanings. Neither Rushton nor Watson calls themselves as racist but this doesn’t mean that they believe IQ is environmental and all people have the same IQ. It is meaningless to say one race is superior to another because no one knows which genes including IQ will be important to survive in the future. Some liberals claim IQ is environmental, some of them say it is genetic but not important and some say think that though it is genetic and all races have different IQs it is much better to act as if we are all equal (politically correctness). Some really believe that all races have different IQs but think that as it is against the human rights it is much better not to talk about it and do anything. Some liberals also think that creativity is more important. The word ‘racist’ can also be used for the opposite meaning for democrat. I don’t know why you gave Einstein as an example but I am pretty sure that he didn’t say anything like that IQ isn’t genetic or all races have the same IQ. As a Jew he certainly knew the dangers of racism and that the Jews suffered much from racism especially in Germany. For political reasons the people can easily be provoked for the destruction of another race like that the Germans did against the Jews in the past. It is a great danger but this has nothing to do with science. The Germans didn’t kill the Jews because they really thought that they were superior to them in any kind of measurement like IQ or creativity but just because they were provoked. I don’t support eugenics because it is against the human rights and secondly it is really not worth the price paid for it but it is important to understand how it is made to understand the mechanism of evolution. Surely there may be more talented scientists than the Nobel Prize winners. Nobel Prize doesn’t need to be a correct measure but it is ridiculous for one to claim that X had more knowledge. Who is the jury? Who decides?

I didn’t imagine anything for the Indians. In the US they spent billions of dollars to improve the IQ of the children with various methods and all of them failed but there were other gains in personality so that they still continued the experiments. What do you mean by there were no Indians in the experiments? It is a ridiculous question. As to Flynn effect again, it is just an ILLUSION of scoring. There is no gain in IQ because of the questions I asked before. It is impossible and ridiculous to assume that the Dutch men had a mean IQ of 79 in 1952! They can’t be so stupid not to understand soccer. Surely it is always difficult to assume how much difficult a question is in an IQ test so that the psychologists adjusts the scoring. But is surely much more difficult to adjust the scoring of tests belonging to different periods and the so-called Flynn effect comedy is the result of it. I answered your question about chess before. Learning certain types of questions doesn’t make you smarter because you will fail to do a different type of question. I know that Mark Henshaw (.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)) wrote in his book that 3 different studies in Germany proved that that chess talent correlates close to zero unlike most people wouldn’t imagine. The mean IQ of German chess players with 2300 ELO rating was found to be only 110. That chess correlates to 0 doesn’t mean that we don’t use our brain while playing. It means chess and math require different cognitive abilities. The abilities just don’t overlap, that’s it. Chess is not of course a poker game, it requires thinking. These players must have spent thousands of hours studying, analyzing positions on chess board. That they just score 110 in an IQ test is the perfect proof that no matter how much you think you just learn, not improve your IQ as your other correlates of g remain the same. It is not important that chess correlates to zero because you use your brain to think. If thinking on different subjects has any effect that your brain might begin to work more efficiently (not just learning the type of questions but with a different reaction time or glucose rate) then you should be able to use it in IQ tests. You can spend thousands of hours studying chess positions and might be pleased to have the illusion (!) of having elevated your IQ but your study won’t help you to score better in math. There was a link about the 3 studies in Germany but it doesn’t work anymore. You should ask Mark about it.

The Chinese or the other East Asians in the US also have very spatial scores when tested though they don’t learn their alphabet as they are born in the US.


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Posted by indian strategy on Sat, 28 Apr 2012 19:28 | #

Once again, I just pointed out to the links that Watson said that the blacks were genetically less intelligent than the whites. You can find lots of similar links. But you still don’t say how he put (!) it if he didn’t do this way. Obviously he believed in the racial differences in IQ but doesn’t call himself as a racist. That is another story depending on what you want to do with it. It is also ridiculous of you showing Einstein as a liberal. He never said that he didn’t believe in the racial differences in IQ. He was just against racial enmity. It is also ridiculous of you saying that the IQ scores in the experiments faded out because they lost their personal interests. Then if they didn’t fade out the racists could also say that the students gained some personal interests, but not IQ! This is not an answer.


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Posted by curious Indian on Sat, 28 Apr 2012 20:12 | #

@ strategy

I don’t know why you gave Einstein as an example but I am pretty sure that he didn’t say anything like that IQ isn’t genetic

Einstein not only fought racism with his political power, his formula for success was this
A= X+Y+Z
A=Success, X= To Work,Y = To have Fun, Z = Not to talk big

He said ” I don’t have much talent or intelligence, I just have a tremendous amount of curiosity
Notice that an emotional factor like curiosity is much more important to him than intelligence or talent.
So forget IQ, he doesn’t even think that intelligence or talent is important.

Also remember what Feynman was talking about :”...there is no miracle people… It’s just that they get interested in these things and study hard ...”. So, Feynman too gives greater importance to emotional factors like personal interests.

Similar things have been said by Grothendieck(hard work and persistence) and many others. For example, Newton gave importance to the quality of persistence and curiosity - again two emotional attributes, rather than intelligence.

one of the greatest inventors of all time is J.C.Bose, even though he never gets the recognition he deserves in the west partly because he never cared about filing patents - saying knowledge shouldn’t be bought with money.His view was ,” It is the invention which is of importance for the mankind, not the inventor”. In truth , he invented a lot of the most important things - from radio to semiconductor solid-state diodes to the idea of P-N junction to crescograph, from Resonant Cardiograph,  Galena detector for detecting infrared waves to Horn aerial, which is the ancestor of the modern-day parabolic dish aerials to polarizer rotators, diffraction grating device to measure the wave length of radiowaves to the fact that plants have living tissues very similar to animals; and many more. But in most of the cases, shamefully western scientists took the credit because in the west you only invent if you have the patent. But now IEEE has accepted each of his inventions. And a lot of his discoveries were made with cheaply manufactured materials or even completely natural materials.


Here is what J.C.Bose said about castes and religions:
”...It was because of my childhood friendship with them that I could never feel that there were ‘creatures’ who might be labelled ‘low-caste’.. I never realized that there existed a ‘problem’ common to the two communities, Hindus and Muslims…”

it seems that you confused everything and didn’t understand some points.

1 – IQ is genetic
2 – IQ is important
3 – Some races have higher IQs

Sorry, but you are the one who is confused.
I perfectly understood your points. In all these posts I was saying and giving reasons for
1. IQ is NOT genetically fixed.
2. IQ is not a real measure of Intelligence.
3. I am not sure if race is a biological meaningful concept, but some nations do seem to score higher right now, but that doesn’t mean anything really.

Astro already stopped replying to you because you simply ignore people’s points.
I too don’t have the patience to repeat my arguments over and over.
Watch the video of Richard Lewontin again. Think about the Flynn effect.
Like I said, even Identical twins can have more than 20 points difference in IQ.
And IQ is only important because we make it important. It is not a real measure of intelligence.

There is no gain in IQ because of the questions I asked before. It is impossible and ridiculous to assume that the Dutch men had a mean IQ of 79 in 1952! They can’t be so stupid not to understand soccer.

Wait , are you saying that Flynn effect itself is false? Sorry, but the Flynn Effect is a universally accepted phenomenon and is still observed all over the world, especially in developing countries. These are real data. Even herediterians admit this much. And it is Rushton and Lynn whose sources have been questioned, not the other way around. Even Suzuki at one point accused Rushton of having unscientific data. Cyril Burt is universally known to have falsified data.

Here is your assumption- A 79 IQ can’t understand football.
The average Indian IQ is supposed to be around 80. Yet I don’t know of any single Indian from any social class who finds it difficult to understand the rules of football or cricket. I don’t think even the 70 IQ Africans ever finds it difficult. And if an African with 70 IQ can understand football, why can’t a dutch have an IQ of 79 and understand football?
Double standards, eh?

The only thing it tells is that probably IQ is not a real measure of Intelligence. This is what I have been trying to tell for so long. This is what the Flynn effect proves.

In the US they spent billions of dollars to improve the IQ of the children with various methods and all of them failed

Firstly, IT IS A LIE!
I am myself aware of several kinds of studies even in USA that showed an increase in IQ. And if you have never heard of them, then I guess you have only listened to a select few of one side.
Certain adoption studies show increase in IQ. Certain educational programs with just limited hours of training produced as increase.
Recently, it was proven that training for the game dual-n-back can increase general intelligence.
Like someone posted earlier, even playing chess has shown to increase IQ by few points in countries like Venezuela.
It is also a well known fact that if you take the tests several time your IQ will automatically get better.

The only question that remained was whether these gains were permanent but there is no reason to believe that it isn’t so. IQ is a relative measure. If you don’t get stimulation when others are getting, it is bound to get down - that’s natural.
Flynn effect itself proves that IQ increases. The fact that identical twins sometimes have over 20 point difference proves that IQ increases.

Secondly, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Just because it didn’t work so far(which isn’t true), doesn’t mean that it can’t. And the existence of counter-examples prove that IQ can rise.

I answered your question about chess before. Learning certain types of questions doesn’t make you smarter because you will fail to do a different type of question

No you haven’t answered my question.
I asked you how do you know that those who are taking the tests - even 6 year olds - that they somehow weren’t exposed to the necessary stimulation and knowledge to take these tests better. And the answer is that you simply can’t provide an evidence for that.

You make it sound like if you have higher IQ you can do anything better.
THIS IS CLEARLY NOT THE CASE! There have been recorded cases of horse-race betters like this - Person A has 115 IQ and 16 year experience. Person B has 85 IQ and 16 years experience. Yet, Person B is far better than person A in making bets. Betting requires calculations which are much more complex than anything in IQ tests.
This is just one example, there are many more - for example- there are grandmasters with IQ quite below average.
All these things just show one thing- higher IQ doesn’t predict higher everything. It doesn’t give any general intelligence like IQ proponents claim.

In fact, having high IQ might simply mean knowledge of a wide variety of topics. So, if that is the case, those who have higher IQ have simply studied a wide variety of topics. And there is simply no way that you can provide evidence that a high IQ person hasn’t studied a wide range of topics.

The mean IQ of German chess players with 2300 ELO rating was found to be only 110.

See, you just proved my point. IQ is totally not needed to gain a high ELO.

You can spend thousands of hours studying chess positions and might be pleased to have the illusion (!) of having elevated your IQ but your study won’t help you to score better in math.

LOL! What makes you think that I would choose IQ over chess ELO? If I can become a grandmaster, I would take that anyday over somethinng as useless as IQ. Chess does increase your IQ, many studies show that. But the gain is only a small amount.

In general higher IQ requires knowing a large range of topics.
Having a high IQ is a bit like being the jack of all trades, master of none.

Sorry, but I prefer master of some and jack of none.

 


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Posted by Curious Indian on Sat, 28 Apr 2012 20:56 | #

@1234
Thank you.
However, it is not just in genetics.
Real life is rarely the fairy-tale that the media portrays.
In reality, ideas don’t fall on the head suddenly like an apple. Ideas EVOLVE. And very rarely a single man is responsible for anything significant.

For example, it is probably incorrect to say that the wright brothers invented the aeroplane. The basic designs were already there. They just got it to a satisfactory level.

Civilizations are built upon knowledge and attitude. IQ is largely irrelevant for the progress of a civilization.  But some people fail to understand this. Just look at Europe before and after reneissance.
What changed?
Firstly attitude and then knowledge(partly imported and partly due to industrial demands).

In fact, many studies suggest that chimps may have as much spatial or mechanical intelligence as us. But what chimps usually don’t do, but humans do is to ask the question - why?? But certainly, any human can learn to ask it?


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Posted by communism rules! on Sun, 29 Apr 2012 05:20 | #

In 1978 India’s nominal per capita GDP $200, China’s $150, yes back then india was a little bit richer than China. For most part of the last 100 years india was little bit richer than China.

Today india is $1060, and China $3800. India has changed only a little. But China for some odd reasons has completely Changed only in the last 30 years.

Communism > Democracy.


199460

Posted by indian strategy on Sun, 29 Apr 2012 06:50 | #

Just name one of those studies funded by the government which is said to have elevated the IQ of the children if you are so sure of yourself.

I asked you how do you know that those who are taking the tests - even 6 year olds - that they somehow weren’t exposed to the necessary stimulation and knowledge to take these tests better. And the answer is that you simply can’t provide an evidence for that.

Your question is so ridiculous. These experiments are made with thousands of children. After every failure will you keep on finding an excuse that all of these children were not enough stimulated?

You couldn’t understand the very simple example I gave about chess. You are not even close to it! If chess increases IQ like you claim then what do you think the mean IQ of the German chess players was before they spend thousands of hours studying chess? Do you mean they were just 80 IQ and after the study they gained 30 points? Or were they just 70 IQ and gained 40 points? If so then if you take a group of people with just 70 IQ and train them will you still find an excuse that they were not stimulated enough (!) after the failure? What do you think they were in the beginning? Not every psychologist accepts the so-called Flynn effect. There may be possible errors while measuring IQ. This doesn’t mean that IQ is changed with the environment. Identical twins can score differently in various tests. In a test one can score higher but in another test the other can due to excitement. This is due to the error. It doesn’t mean that one or the other has gained anything about IQ.

I know Venter’s explanations but I can’t see any correlation with the number of the genes and the genetic determinism. Humans have 30000 genes. If we had 1 million genes would it be the proof (!) that genes have a higher effect? LOL. It is rather like the effect of a melody and the number (!) of the musical notes the melody has.

Big Mouth stopped replying to both of you because he obviously realized you both weren’t worth losing time with. Maybe I am not as smart as him.)))


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Posted by Curious Indian on Sun, 29 Apr 2012 13:28 | #

@strategy

Basically your argument amounts to - for each of our explanations there is a counter explanation, so tell us how do we prove that IQ is genetic! And the simple answer is - you can’t , not with our current knowledge of biology. And in fact, all evidence seems to suggest that the environment does play a big role in IQ.

And my point was never that there is no genetic basis for intelligence, what I said was that there ought to be a large environmental basis for intelligence .
One of the first mistakes that hereditarians make is that they try to separate genes and environment and then ask for percentage for each. This is a HUGE mistake because genes and environments interact. You can only ask for a percentage of genetic determinism if you can keep the environment fixed and no one can do that in our society. You can at best try to control for certain specific factors.
Lewontinn’s video again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we4ZzjKxFHM

You couldn’t understand the very simple example I gave about chess. You are not even close to it! If chess increases IQ like you claim then what do you think the mean IQ of the German chess players was before they spend thousands of hours studying chess? Do you mean they were just 80 IQ and after the study they gained 30 points? Or were they just 70 IQ and gained 40 points? If so then if you take a group of people with just 70 IQ and train them will you still find an excuse that they were not stimulated enough (!) after the failure? What do you think they were in the beginning?

Who said there are 30-40 point increases? I said myself that IQ gain from chess is relatively small. May be 5-10 points on average if played seriously for several years. And the increase will vary from individual to individual based on various factors.
Chess probably improves mainly your spatial working memory, but it doesn’t teach you much abstract and logical thinking.

And in fact, the very idea behind high IQ is that you have to know lots of different kinds of topics or patterns. In general people with greater urge to learn will learn more topics and patterns. However, if you simply put someone in an education program and stimulate them , they can still improve. May be the reason why sometimes IQ starts to fade after the education program stops is because while their knowledge has increased due to the courses, but their interest really hasn’t? In fact, that may be due to many different reasons. For example, a black person might respond emotionally better to a black teacher, but there simply aren’t that many good black teachers!

Not every psychologist accepts the so-called Flynn effect. There may be possible errors while measuring IQ. This doesn’t mean that IQ is changed with the environment. Identical twins can score differently in various tests. In a test one can score higher but in another test the other can due to excitement. This is due to the error. It doesn’t mean that one or the other has gained anything about IQ.

Practically everyone accepts the Flynn effect. The main difference lies in how different people try to explain it. Far more people dispute Rushton’s data.

An IQ difference of 20 points , like observed in some identical twin cases, can’t be just because of excitement error. (And BTW, identical twins share more than just genes.)
And If one can’t even measure IQ properly, why does one try to determine who is superior?
Or perhaps the inability to keep IQ fixed is because IQ itself is not fixed?
Does IQ even exist? Isn’t that defined by just a test score? If I intentionally don’t answer, my IQ is 0 by definition.
Like I said , the only thing Flynn effect proves is that IQ is probably not a real measure of intelligence.

Just name one of those studies

As for you wanting studies, here they are:
I don’t even believe in psychology, or importance of IQ,but since you asked, here it goes—-

As for you wanting studies

1>Music training increases IQ:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/6447588/Playing-a-musical-instrument-makes-you-brainier.html

2>http://www.raisesmartkid.com/all-ages/1-articles/16-the-effect-of-music-on-childrens-intelligence

3>http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun06/iq.aspx

3>Education increases IQ:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/medical/health/medical/mentalhealth/story/2011-12-27/IQ-isnt-fixed-at-birth-and-can-increase-with-education/52237552/1
http://socyberty.com/psychology/more-time-in-school-can-increase-iq/
This one is crucial. The study was a natural experiment making it more credible than average studies.  And it’s sponsored by Norway’s government.

Robert Sternberg:“these results—that schooling has a substantial effect on IQ—replicate those of other, perhaps not quite as well-controlled, studies.I am aware of no serious studies that show the opposite result.”
“The results of this study are problematical for the chorus of psychologists and educators still locked in century-old thinking that IQ is genetic, stable and non-modifiable,” Sternberg said. “As, for these individuals, the belief in the stability of IQ is more a matter of religious faith than of scientific inference, I doubt they will be persuaded.”

4>The Head Start program in the United States is a federally funded preschool program for children from low income families. Head Start provides children with activities that might enhance cognitive development, including reading books, learning the alphabet and numbers, learning the names of colors, drawing, and other activities. These programs often have large initial effects on IQ test results and children who participate gain as much as 15 IQ points compared to control groups of similar children not in the program. The educational correlation for IQtest results continues into adulthood, with college graduates typically scoring higher than non college graduates.

A substantial body of research establishes that preschool education can improve the learning and development of young children. Multiple meta-analyses conducted over the past 25 years have found preschool education to produce an average immediate effect of about half (0.50) a standard deviation oncognitive development. This is the equivalent of 7 or 8 points on an IQ test, or a ascent from the 30th to the 50th percentile on test scores.

5>Chess increases IQ:
Like someone posted earlier - there are several studies that demonstrate this.
One of them is sponsored by the Venezuela government. The government was so satisfied, that they introduced chess lessons in schools.

Chess has even been shown to raise students’ overall IQ scores. Using the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children a Venezuelan study of over 4,000 second grade students found a significant increase in most students’ IQ scores after only 4.5 months of systematically studying chess.  This occurred across all socio-economic groups and for both males and females.  The Venezuelan government was so impressed that all Venezuelan schools introduced chess lessons starting in 1988-89 (summarised in Ferguson 1995, p. 8).
Also, In 1973-74, a study in Zaire (Chess and Aptitudes) by Dr. Albert Frank showed that introducing chess to teenage players increased their IQ. These players that were taught an additional 2 hours of chess instead of mathematics had stronger spatial, numerical, administrative-directional, and paperwork abilities than the group that did not get introduced to chess.

6>One study, produced in 1975, took place in Belgium, where Christiaen found a chess-playing experimental group of 20 fifth graders experienced a statistically significant gain in cognitive development (IQ) over a control group, using Piaget’s tests for cognitive development (Ferguson, 1995).


7>Studying chess systematically has also been shown to raise students’ IQ scores, academic exam scores (Dullea 1982; Palm 1990; Ferguson 2000, p. 3), as well as strengthen mathematical, language, and reading skills (Margulies 1991; Liptrap 1998; Ferguson 2000, pp. 3-4).  Tournament chess games, which involve clocks to limit the total time each player can use, are also a fun way to provide practice at making fast and accurate decisions under pressure, a skill that can help students cope with the similar pressures of school exams.  This is also a fun way to practise how to put the mind into high gear, where intense concentration increases alertness, efficiency of thought processes, and ultimately mental performance.


http://www.auschess.org.au/articles/chessmind.htm
http://chess.photobooks.com/genesis/web_pages/html/smart.html

8>Eric Turkheimer of the University of Virginia has conducted further research demonstrating that in poor and chaotic households, I.Q. is minimally the result of genetics — because everybody is held back.


9>Working memory training increases IQ, including fluid intelligence. And it can do so in Adults.

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/19/6829.full
http://www.sharpbrains.com/blog/2011/06/14/study-working-memory-training-can-improve-fluid-intelligence/
A recent repeat of this study with little children suggests that the IQ gain persists several months after the training has been stopped .

It must be noted that working memory is a much better predictor of academic success than IQ. And studies suggest that it can be trained like muscles.

10>Here is more on working memory
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/memory-medic/201203/training-working-memory-why-and-how

11>more:http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278262612000309

12>Here is one more on intelligence and brain-training.

http://www.naturalnews.com/034029_intelligence_brain_exercise.html

13>
Certain teaching methods have produced large gains on SAT scores .
http://www.fairtest.org/redux-test-coaching-works
Records of the averages don’t let you know how much, if any, effort students put into studying before a retake. They do show however that students’ scores improve on average the more times they take the test.

14> Mother’s milk enhances IQ.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7385097.stm
Another environmental gain.

15> Here is an adoption study claiming IQ increases when adopted in better families:
http://www.pnas.org/content/96/15/8790.full.pdf
There are many more.

16> And probably the simplest denial of genetic determinism is the Flynn effect. There is a tremendous amount of data to support. And Flynn effect is larger in less developed countries:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201008/the-flynn-effect-and-iq-disparities-among-races-ethnicities-and-nations-

Some of the above were government funded, but I don’t know why it should matter. Rushton is funded by an organization that supports eugenics. These are certainly more credible than his data. He and Lynn used data from mental treatment wards to determine IQ of aborigines.


And you want more?I can go on for ever.
For example, you can find many more studies in Flynn’s book , Nisbett’s book or other environmental proponents books.
You can probably get some studies here:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~nisbett/racegen.pdf


199462

Posted by Curious Indian on Sun, 29 Apr 2012 14:10 | #

(P.S)
Probably one of the most important points applicable to Indians here is number 8>.
Among poor people there is virtually no heritability of IQ.

Looking at how poor many Indians are - 8> coupled with 16> easily solves most of the the mystery of Indian IQ.


199463

Posted by indian strategy on Sun, 29 Apr 2012 20:38 | #

——-Head Start provides children with activities that might enhance cognitive development,    including reading books, learning the alphabet and numbers, learning the names of colors, drawing, and other activities. These programs often have large initial effects on IQ test results and children who participate gain as much as 15 IQ points compared to control groups of similar children not in the program. The educational correlation for IQ test results continues into adulthood, with college graduates typically scoring higher than non college graduates.

I have asked you to name studies especially funded by the US government, not to mention ones in Venezuela or Zaire. About the Head start you are obviously lying like a typical Indian that even at adulthood the ones who took the program still scored 15 points higher. No, this is a big LIE. Like that you can find limitless sources about Head Start here is one below saying that at a cost of 4000 $ per child a year in 1993 the program had more than 7 million children and the scores faded out 3-4 years later. First these are not like the studies you mention with no cost at all (like playing chess or guitar in 3rd world countries) but the most respected ones, not only in the US but worldwide. You still can ask if these children were stimulated enough! The study comprises more than 7 million children, not just 20-30 people. Though the Abecedarian was a very small program with only 111 black children it was the most expensive and successful program with only 4.6 points of gain at age 15. I don’t remember how much it was for the Head Start but obviously not 15 points at adulthood as you lie.
http://www.econ.ucla.edu/people/papers/currie/schqual.pdf

As to the study in Norway it doesn’t give any information about the size of the study and if the scores gained are permanent. Even the link you gave states that the students who took the music lessons might already have been self-selected.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun06/iq.aspx
(Schellenberg isn’t sure why music lessons are associated with higher IQ and stronger academic performance, but he has several theories: Children with higher IQs have more cognitive ability to handle the mental challenges of music lessons and school, so music lessons probably exaggerate that advantage. School itself boosts IQ, so the school-like features of music lessons such as learning to read music might also lead to improved intellectual functioning, Schellenberg speculates.)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/medical/health/medical/mentalhealth/story/2011-12-27/IQ-isnt-fixed-at-birth-and-can-increase-with-education/52237552/1
(“The size of the effect was quite large,” she said. Comparing IQ scores before and after the education reform, the average increased by 0.6 points, which correlated with an increase in IQ of 3.7 points for an addition year of schooling, Galloway said.)
http://socyberty.com/psychology/more-time-in-school-can-increase-iq/
(“The extra time at school has a considerable effect on the increase in IQ in early adulthood. But the results are not yet clear whether this applies to all children, or just the children who are involved in this study. A link between higher IQ with education higher has been established, “the researchers said as quoted by BBCNewsHealth, Wednesday (28/12/2011).
But, in fact to determine whether to spend more time in school can actually increase the IQ is very difficult. This is probably because children with higher IQ are naturally choose to spend more time in the education system.)
You make 2 big mistakes. First, some of the links you gave state that the children at early age can improve their IQ with music or chess or whatever. This is not something new but all these faded programs like Head Start and many others have already proved that their IQs go to their genetic orbit in the adulthood. Second there is no information about if the scores are permanent or gained temporarily. Temporarily means there is no gain but intellect because of the concentration. Though America is arguably the most developed country in science and technology it is also the center of the charlatans! Here are 2 studies below which were first claimed to have improved the IQ of the children. Before searching on the internet you should have asked me so that you wouldn’t lose any time. There are absolutely hundreds of studies like these in America but if you sum up all of them they don’t make even one Head Start Program, the most respected one, not even close to it.
http://www.rclub.net/blog/?p=36

In October 1993, Nature magazine published an article by Frances Rauscher, Gordon Shaw, and Katherine Ky about their study in which subjects who listened to 10 minutes of a Mozart sonata prior to taking IQ tests added 9 points to their IQ scores. This research spawned a veritable industry of Mozart products for infants and toddlers (even though the research was performed on college students). Most famous was the Disney Baby Einstein products.
According to The Invisible Gorilla And Other Ways Our Intuitions Deceive Us (New York: Crown Publishers, 2010) even though dozens of subsequent tests repudiated this research. Finally, in 2007 researchers at the University of Washington surveyed parents of infants and toddlers in Washington and Montana and found that for infants, each additional hour per day spent watching baby DVDs was associated with an 8 percent reduction in vocabulary, and for toddlers, there was no significant relationship between DVD viewing and vocabulary size.

http://www.neoeugenics.net/bgpe.htm

Posthuma, Geus & Boomsma note that, “The large genetic contribution to individual differences in cognitive abilities is well established. From childhood to early adulthood, the relative impact of genetic factors on cognitive abilities increases and becomes even higher from middle adulthood to late adulthood. Data from four large twin studies from the Dutch Twin Registry, which are partly longitudinal and partly cross-sectional, reflect this increasing heritability of cognitive abilities with age. Shared environmental influences play a role only before adolescence and are of relatively low importance between ages 7 and 16. This pattern of the relative impact of genetic and environmental influences on cognitive abilities corresponds to that found in many other countries.

Figure 9.1
Additive genetic/Shared environment/non-shared environment by age.
50 year old 85/0/15
26 year old 88/0/12
18 year old 82/0/18
12 year old 60/25/15
10 year old 54/26/31
7 year old 40/29/31
5 year old 26/50/24

“In spite of the overwhelming evidence for the existence of ‘genes for cognition,’ actual identification of such genes is limited to neurological mutations with rather severe cognitive effects (e.g., Pick’s disease, X-linked mental retardation, and Huntington’s disease), as reviewed by Flint. Like the many rare diseases and disorders listed in online Mendelian Inheritance in Man, these genetic defects of cognition are largely Mendelian in nature. True polygenes that influence the normal range of cognitive ability have yet to be identified. One route to finding these genes is a better appreciation of individual differences in the anatomy and function of the main organ of information processing, the brain.”
This relationship between genetic, shared environment and non-shared environment has been emerging now for over a decade and sheds new light on the social sciences, educational policy, and social intervention policies. But numerous social programs are slow to respond. The Chicago Tribune ran an article reporting the surprise results of the first test scores around the state of Illinois as part of President Bush’s new program: No Child Left Behind. What they found was that even in wealthy suburban schools, minority students, primarily Black and Hispanic, were still struggling to attain the minimal level of education. But this is not surprising if innate intelligence determines a students success, and not the amount of money spent or the quality of the teachers - these factors count but they are not determinant. The entire article was just a series of new excuses why minorities have so much trouble learning - but never is the genetic component even alluded to.
The changes between genetic/shared and non-shared environments also explains why social scientists have placed so much hope on early intervention programs like Head Start. At the age of five-years-old, as shown in the above figure, genes only account for 26% of intelligence while the shared environment accounts for 50%. These young minority students then, with intensive and on-going enrichment programs, are able to learn and excel far beyond the average of their peers. Then, as they get older, disappointment sets in: the early intervention starts to fade as the genetic component goes to 82% while the shared environment component goes to zero.
No wonder that social scientists and educators have been looking for excuses for this failure for early intervention to persist into adulthood. They assumed that anyone can be equally educated with the right programs. To explain the failures a whole litany of explanations emerged: racism, lack of money for education, crime, slavery, apprehension over test taking, bias in tests, pollution, poor nutrition, belonging to a lower caste, etc. The excuses are endless and at times humorously creative - but they are never formulated into any falsifiable theory and therefore they cannot be tested (typical of most social science research).


199464

Posted by 1234 on Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:26 | #

@Curious Indian

Ho Ho! I suggest you just ignore this idiot strategy.
Even after you produced studies from all from all over the world and those published in well established journals, even government sponsored ones like he asked, he still has the courage to come up with excuses. Not to mention, he just bypassed most of your important questions and is dragging you to psychological non-sense.

(P.S)
Probably one of the most important points applicable to Indians here is number 8>.
Among poor people there is virtually no heritability of IQ.

Looking at how poor many Indians are - 8> coupled with 16> easily solves most of the the mystery of Indian IQ.

I think you are spot on here.
Indeed the the fact heritability of IQ is very low among poor people might very well explain India’s IQ.
However, I feel that there is also a mismeasure of IQ of India and China.
In India, most of the IQ testing came from the less developed areas, wheras in china, big cities were tested.
Lynn’s has close social relations with various Chinese. That could also add to the bias.
Korea and Japan’s IQ just might be right, but China- I doubt very much.
In fact, Malcolm Gladwell writes that the actual IQ of Chinese in America is actually around 98, not 105. The earlier bias was due to study of high SES families.

So testing bias combined with very low heritability of IQ among poor people might very well explain everything.


199465

Posted by Curious Indian on Tue, 01 May 2012 15:53 | #

@1234

Ho Ho! I suggest you just ignore this idiot strategy.
Even after you produced studies from all from all over the world and those published in well established journals, even government sponsored ones like he asked, he still has the courage to come up with excuses. Not to mention, he just bypassed most of your important questions and is dragging you to psychological non-sense.

Indeed, may be I should just ignore him.


There are just one or two things I am compelled to answer.
First, http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/medical/health/medical/mentalhealth/story/2011-12-27/IQ-isnt-fixed-at-birth-and-can-increase-with-education/52237552/1

“In 1955, Norway began extending compulsory middle school education by two years. Galloway and her colleague Christian Brinch, from the department of economics at the University of Oslo, analyzed how this additional schooling might affect IQ.

Using data on men born between 1950 and 1958, the researchers looked at the level of schooling by age 30. They also looked at IQ scores of the men when they were 19.”

The education increased in Norway was compulsory for men and the IQ was tested at 19 years of age - an age at which it is considered fairly stable. It pretty much negates any counter point that strategy said.

“By looking at a reform which increased mandatory schooling and prevented people from dropping out of school after the 7th grade, it is fairly certain that the effects seen are an effect of schooling on IQ, not vice versa, she explained.”

Second, the head first study was interesting one because they did produce an initial increase of about 10-12 IQ points. Even if temporary, the IQ did increase. Why? And the long term effects were not zero. There was a very small but positive IQ gain. I have also already mentioned possible reasons for why it might be failing.
Also,
The children in Head Start are overwhelmingly poor and minority. They are at high risk of starting school far behind their more advantaged peers, and falling further behind over time. They tune-out and drop-out at alarming rates.
Most importantly, the head start program is only a few weeks long. How can anyone expect a permanent gain from such a brief period?
Remember, IQ is a relative measure

Barnett, Young, and Schweinhart(1998), used causal modeling to show that long-term effects of early childhood education are built upon short-term effects.

Also, some other projects like abecedarian had greater long lasting benefits, including 4 point IQ gain at age 21.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abecedarian_Early_Intervention_Project
Notably, these projects were longer and teacher-child ratio was low.

The rest of strategy’s post is just garbage. He refers to websites like “neo-eugenics.com” disregarding studies published well-established journals, just what you said.

One of the main problems with him is that he is simply unable to understand the concept that
A zillion examples can’t prove a theory, but a single counter-example can disprove a theory.

that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence

Another very important thing he fails to understand is that
The averaged results of a large sample size doesn’t necessarily mean anything, because the good-examples and counter-examples may simply balance each other out.
In fact, if the education program had large samples, each individual samples are likely to get much less attention. So, it actually weakens the argument.
I am much more interested in the counter examples.

I asked him lots of things. He just ignored whatever he wasn’t able to answer. Instead his entire strength of argument rests upon a few study of “averages” that he clings on to like fevi-quick .

BTW, here is evidence that Asian kids’ reading system may improve their IQ
http://www.sq.4mg.com/Chinese.htm
http://www.sq.4mg.com/SpatialIQ.htm

Here is another nice article that states that the assertion that IQ is largely unchangeable is firmly contradicted by empirical findings from a number of sources.
http://www.thepsychologist.org.uk/archive/archive_home.cfm/volumeID_11-editionID_60-ArticleID_248-getfile_getPDF/thepsychologist\caniq.pdf
The article also fully explains the “fading objection”.

I think you are spot on here.
Indeed the the fact heritability of IQ is very low among poor people might very well explain India’s IQ.
However, I feel that there is also a mismeasure of IQ of India and China.
In India, most of the IQ testing came from the less developed areas, wheras in china, big cities were tested.
Lynn’s has close social relations with various Chinese. That could also add to the bias.
Korea and Japan’s IQ just might be right, but China- I doubt very much.
In fact, Malcolm Gladwell writes that the actual IQ of Chinese in America is actually around 98, not 105. The earlier bias was due to study of high SES families.

So testing bias combined with very low heritability of IQ among poor people might very well explain everything.

Thank you, and I think that is probably the case.
I agree that there might be a testing bias. But like I posted links earlier, even the Chinese reading system may have given them an IQ advantage.

In fact, I can go on forever about how many things can improve the IQ.
I mentioned there is strong evidence music, education, chess,  working memory training, breast feeding etc can improve IQ.

Indeed there are more studies that show that neurofeedback, gaming, tetris or even internet usage can improve IQ. Other studies show:

Meditation can increase grey matter, which has been linked to intelligence.
Juggling can increase certain types of brain cells.
London Taxi drivers literally grow their brain size.
Studies show that new brain cells can grow in adulthood.
Even something like synaesthesia can be induced using hypnosis.

Moreover, Flynn says that the only thing that blacks have obained in the last few decades is slightly better education. Yet, that was enough for them close the IQ gap with whites by 5 points.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=8p3mqevjeO8


199466

Posted by indian strategy on Tue, 01 May 2012 16:09 | #

ABCD you had better stop flattering your fellow curious Indian. First he lied about the Head Start Program like that he lied before about Watson and Einstein. Second what well published articles are you talking about? Here are 3 of the links he sent. The first 2 links are about http://www.pnas.org which needs to deserve attention. Just read what it says there. You really don’t understand anything, do you? The links your fellow sent are about the training of the children. You can change the IQ of the children much easier as they are children because the development of the brain hasn’t stopped yet but at adulthood when the brain finishes its development the genetic effect wins. No matter whatever you do in the past at adulthood the GAME IS OVER in the end! Even the 2 links below which your fellow has sent approves what I say, not him.

As to the 3rd link below it was published as news in Telegraph which doesn’t deserve any attention. It wasn’t published in a scientific issue. What is ridiculous in the news is that the so-called music training has (!) the SAME effect on both children and adults.

All the other links your fellow sent are about the children, not adults. One should ask what happened to those kids in Venezuela when they became adults. German chess players with 2300 ELO scored just 110.

Also your IQ score can change after eating chocolate as well as your other correlates of g like reaction time and glucose rate. Unfortunately this ends after several hours. You can publish an article in a magazine issue that chocolate improves IQ. This will be by no means different than those stupid studies that 10 minutes of listening to Mozart improves your IQ.
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/19/6829.full
(Although performance on tests of Gf can be improved through direct practice on the tests themselves, there is no evidence that training on any other regimen yields increased Gf in ADULTS.
In the domain of psychopharmacology, although there is a market for so-called “smart drugs,” there is no study showing evidence for a drug-related increase in Gf in healthy ADULTS although there are certain psychomotor stimulants and D2 dopamine-receptor agonists that have effects on isolated cognitive processes)
http://www.pnas.org/content/96/15/8790.full.pdf
(Finally, we have no data to date indicating that adopted
Children will maintain their IQ gains in adulthood after having left
their family environment. All longitudinal studies have shown
very few IQ changes after adolescence.)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/6447588/Playing-a-musical-instrument-makes-you-brainier.html
(Lutz Jäncke, a psychologist at the University of Zurich, said: “Learning to play a musical instrument has definite benefits and can increase IQ by seven points, in both children and adults.
“We found that even in people over the age of 65 after four or five months of playing a instrument for an hour a week there were strong changes in the brain.)


199467

Posted by Curious Indian on Tue, 01 May 2012 17:52 | #

No my dear strategy, the study subjects in pnas working memory study were young adults(university students). Your comprehension skills are poor.

There were a few follow up studies in various countries on various age groups including children. Working memory training has yielded positive effects each time. The positive effects are clearly visible even after 4 months. This reminds you of muscle training rather than drugs. Of course, there are drugs too that can increase your IQ temporarily- but I didn’t mention them because these drugs only work for a few days at best.

I am well aware of mozart effect and have always been skeptical about it. That is why I never mentioned it. Don’t put words into other people’s mouth.
However, musical training(not just listening) does produce long term gains in IQ. I can show you even more such studies.

And in every adoption study where IQ dropped with time, so did the environmental and motivational factors. And even after the drop, there is a positive gain as adults.


199468

Posted by 1234 on Wed, 02 May 2012 19:11 | #

@Curious Indian

Yes, I agree with you. I saw that Flynn video. He says that developing countries are catching up. That is interesting! Since you mentioned gaming, I found this video:
http://www.complex.com/tech/2011/11/researchers-believe-gaming-increases-iq-scores
Apparently, the speaker suggests that the Flynn Effect was caused largely because of gaming. There was also a mention of an Indian guy named Ananth Pai.


199469

Posted by indian strategy on Thu, 03 May 2012 18:19 | #

Curious Indian either you have terrible reading comprehension skills or you are a perfect liar. You need to check what is written there. Nowhere in the text has it said they were university students. They were lastly tested when their mean age was 13.6 years. Certainly one can’t apply to a university when he is 13 or 14 years old. Secondly at the end of the conclusion there is a confession that there is no data to date indicating that adopted
children will maintain their IQ gains in adulthood. Adolescence and adulthood are different. Third there is another paragraph talking about the regression to the mean effect. Though it claims that the gains up to adolescence cannot be solely due to regression to the mean (again the genetic effect) it also confesses that it should be at least partly. If you don’t know what regression to the mean is do a search to learn it, don’t waste my time.
The 2nd link belongs to John Ray, the author of this article in this page. He refuses Flynn Effect.
http://www.pnas.org/content/96/15/8790.full.pdf

IQ
scores were obtained for 65 subjects. The mean age for
adoptive placement was 57.7 months (SD57.5). The mean age
for IQ testing before adoption was 52.6 months (SD 5 7.2).
The mean age was 162.6 months (SD 5 22.8) for testing after
adoption.

From a methodological point of view, the IQ gain cannot be
solely due to regression to the mean.

Finally, we have no data to date indicating that adopted
Children will maintain their IQ gains in adulthood after having left
their family environment. All longitudinal studies have shown
very few IQ changes after adolescence. The present study has
evaluated at adolescence (mean=13.6 years) the effect of a total
environmental shift that took place at the end of early childhood
(between 4 and 6 years of age) for children who had low IQs at
this early stage.
jonjayray.tripod.com/geneiq.html
If I take my sociologist’s hat off, however, and re-don my psychometrician’s hat, there is another interesting explanation for the Flynn effect: It could be an “artifact” (not a real effect—i.e. maybe real IQ did not rise at all). Why?
Because, although scores on all sorts of IQ subtests (puzzle categories) rose during the 20th century, they did not rise evenly. And the scores that rose least were for those problems that loaded most highly on ‘g’ (See e.g. here). The implication is that scores on a perfect measure of ‘g’ would not have risen at all.
So how do we explain that? There is no general agreement but the commonest explanation among psychometricians is that the rise in measured IQ reflects increasing test sophistication. Kids now spend MANY more years in the educational system than they once did and although there is probably little to show for that overall, kids DO get a lot of practice in passing tests of various sorts. And practice may not make perfect but it would be surprising if test-taking skills and strategies (such as guessing when you are not certain) were not improved by many years of extra practice at taking such tests.
But, whichever way you look at it, it is clear that the Flynn effect does not weaken the case for saying that IQ is substantially genetically determined. It simply suggests what are the circumstances for making the most of our genetic inheritance. And, sadly for those who hate the idea of genetic influences, the IQ increases have not closed the usual big gap between average black and white IQ levels. Negroes have forged ahead but whites have forged ahead too. And, if U.S. education results are any guide, the black-white IQ gap may even have widened in recent years.
There is an adoption study that focuses on income summarized here which gives similar results to studies of IQ. Excerpt:
The graph below is from a fascinating new paper, What Happens When We Randomly Assign Children to Families?, by Bruce Sacerdote. Holt’s International Children’s Services places children, primarily Koreans, with families in the United States. Holt has an interesting proviso to their adoption contract, conditional on being accepted into the program, children are randomly assigned. Sacerdote has collected data from children who were adopted between 1970-1980, and thus who today are in their mid 20’s or 30’s, and their adoptive parents.
The graph shows how parent income at the time of adoption relates to child income for the adopted and “biological” (non-adopted) children. The income of biological children increases strongly with parental income but the income of adoptive children is flat in parent income.
In other words, as with IQ, family environment had NO EFFECT on achievement. Kids adopted into high income households did no better than kids adopted into low income households. Only genetics made a difference: Very contrary to lots of popular assumptions and a bitter pill for Leftists to swallow but those are the facts. And, given that the measurement of income is a lot less controversial than the measurement of IQ, the concordance between income and IQ studies could well be seen as particularly impressive.


199470

Posted by Curious Indian on Fri, 04 May 2012 11:28 | #

@1234

Indeed, it’s very likely that gaming contributed at least partially to the Flynn effect.

Unfortunately, there aren’t too many Ananth Pais in India who try to integrate gaming with education. There have been some efforts, but very very shallow ones.

Sougata Mitra’s earlier work hole in the wall was also partial success
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRb7_ffl2D0

But we need something more well planned and organized than these methods.

@indian strategy

Wow! I was talking about the working memory training article and I think I made that clear. I am not even that much interested in adoption studies as they tend to be more prone to errors.

“Participants and Procedure.

For this study, we conducted four individual experiments involving a total of 70 healthy young participants (36 female; mean age, 25.6 years of age; SD, 3.3) recruited from the University of Bern community, “


And secondly, in the adoption study what the author writes is :
Finally, we have no data to date indicating that adopted children will maintain their IQ gains in adulthood after having left their family environment. Looks like you completely overlooked the bolded part .

Generally, the IQ of a person is considered fairly stable among most people after age 13. (If the IQ drops or increases much, it can only be environmental influence. ) The writers themselves stated that fact - “longitudinal studies have shown very few IQ changes after adolescence”. So IQ at age 13.6 is fairly likely to be very close to adult IQ.


Even the guy you claim that denies flynn effect actually admits that there has been a gain in IQ, essentially confessing that the Flynn Effect occurs.What he claims is that there has been little gain in the most “high -g-loaded” areas.

Now this is somewhat misleading because:
1> There are many different degrees of g-load and one can selectively pick “high g-load”. G, like I said , is simply a measure of correlation.
2> Tests like Raven’s progressive matrices are considered the most g-loaded tests. Yet these type of tests show the highest gains.
3> Now some specific high g-loaded subtests of some high g-loaded tests like “vocabulary “, “general knowledge” show very little gain. But like I said earlier,  these do have a cultural bias - not just across countries , but even within countries among different social groups of people.
4> The developing countries show much greater Flynn effect than the most developed countries- such as the scandinavian countries.

And lastly, I have never said that genes do not play any role. Rather, what I have been telling is that genes cannot “determine” anything by itself as genes and environment interact.


199471

Posted by Curious Indian on Fri, 04 May 2012 12:07 | #

Anyway, I don’t have much time nowadays, except may be on Sundays, and I don’t want to waste my Sundays on useless stuff like these with someone as biased as strategy.

So, I will take 1234’s advice and stop. So this is probably my last post.

In case there was ever any misunderstanding - I don’t have anything against anyone - I have respect for the whites, the chinese, the other east- asians,  the jews or any other group I left out - I just wanted this stupid racism to stop , but I am too powerless, I guess.


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Posted by 1234 on Sat, 05 May 2012 15:58 | #

@Curious Indian

To be honest, I just wanted you to ignore him, but I guess I can’t blame you if you don’t have the time.  I agree with you completely again - indeed, the Flynn Effect seems to be an increase of fluid g and abstract thinking. The brain is plastic and environment plays a strong role. Personally, apart from agreeing with you about the environmental influence, I also think that IQ is overrated. There are other kinds of intelligence which are possibly more important.

Anyway, I was really inspired by that video of Sugata Mitra. Extremely interesting! I ended up watching a lot of Sugata Mitra videos - his other talks in various places. I can see potential in his method.
I think his 2010 TED talk was awesome- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk60sYrU2RU


199473

Posted by indian strategy on Mon, 07 May 2012 21:03 | #

You misunderstood what he says. There is no test which has a g loading of 1. The IQ test which has the highest g loading is said to be the best predictor of the success in the other tests. He says that if we could measure the g perfectly (we can’t) there would be no rise in g. That we can’t measure g perfectly doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Suppose there are 5 types of tests, A, B, C, D and E. If A has the highest g loading and if you increase it by practice and training you will also change the correlations (unless if you also can increase the scores of the other tests) and the test will no longer have the same predictive value for the other tests and it will have a lower g loading. Generally vocabulary is said to have the highest g loading. Surely no one takes the dictionary and memorize it. It is useless. But if everyone did it the g loadedness of vocabulary would decrease. So you see, the concept of g has its insurance in itself. No IQ test can measure g, the real intelligence.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289606000778
IQ scores provide the best general predictor of success in education, job training, and work. However, there are many ways in which IQ scores can be increased, for instance by means of retesting or participation in learning potential training programs. What is the nature of these score gains? Jensen [Jensen, A.R. (1998a). The g factor: The science of mental ability. London: Praeger] argued that the effects of cognitive interventions on abilities can be explained in terms of Carroll’s three-stratum hierarchical factor model. We tested his hypothesis using test–retest data from various Dutch, British, and American IQ test batteries combined into a meta-analysis and learning potential data from South Africa using Raven’s Progressive Matrices. The meta-analysis of 64 test–retest studies using IQ batteries (total N = 26,990) yielded a correlation between g loadings and score gains of − 1.00, meaning there is no g saturation in score gains. The learning potential study showed that: (1) the correlation between score gains and the g loadedness of item scores is − .39, (2) the g loadedness of item scores decreases after a mediated intervention training, and (3) low-g participants increased their scores more than high-g participants. So, our results support Jensen’s hypothesis. The generalizability of test scores resides predominantly in the g component, while the test-specific ability component and the narrow ability component are virtually non-generalizable. As the score gains are not related to g, the generalizable g component decreases and, as it is not unlikely that the training itself is not g-loaded, it is easy to understand why the score gains did not generalize to scores on other cognitive tests and to g-loaded external criteria.
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/19/6829.full
However, it has been demonstrated that <em>practice on these tests decreases their novelty and with that the underlying Gf-processes (5) so that the predictive value of the tests for other tasks disappears </em>(17). These findings are compatible with a long history of research on cognitive training in psychological and educational science showing that, although performance on trained tasks can increase dramatically, transfer of this learning to other tasks or domains remains shockingly rare (18–21).
http://bussorah.tripod.com/nyborg.html
Primary Ability…............................. g Loading

.................................................. Low IQ / High IQ

Fluid Intelligence (gf)..........................89….. .80
Visual Processing (gv)........................88….. .77
Processing Speed (gs)..................... .95….. .75
Long-Term Retrieval (glr)................. .69….. .65
Crystallized Intelligence (gc)........... . .84….. .39
Auditory Processing (ga).................. .81…... .65
Short-Term Memory (gsm)............... .72….. .39


199474

Posted by rohit on Tue, 15 May 2012 03:12 | #

Anyone who has been to India will immediate notice that the whole country smells of raw feces. Open defecation is ubiquitous. The 81 probably explains for much of the phenomenon.


199475

Posted by Justus of Tiberias on Tue, 15 May 2012 07:33 | #

  communism rules! on April 29, 2012, 12:20 AM | #

  In 1978 India’s nominal per capita GDP $200, China’s $150, yes back then india was a little bit richer than China. For most part of the last 100 years india was little bit richer than China.

  Today india is $1060, and China $3800. India has changed only a little. But China for some odd reasons has completely Changed only in the last 30 years.

  Communism > Democracy.


Communism > Poverty
Capitalism > Porsperity

Following World War II the Communist Party in the People’s Republic of China abolished most forms of private property and eliminated the rule of law. Competitive markets were outlawed and without the profit incentive, entrepreneurial activity ground to a halt. Through the 1950s and 1960s the standard of living for the average Chinese citizen actually fell to levels below those that existed during the Ming Dynasty and programs such as the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward destroyed human and physical capital throughout the country. After Mao Zedong’s death things began to change for China. Observing the growing prosperity of ethnic Chinese residing in the Pacific Rim outside China, Deng Xiaoping rightly concluded that if Chinese could create wealth outside China they could create it within China. Deng chose to adopt policies of wealth instead of policies of poverty and began a slow, methodical process of introducing the institutions of capitalism into Chinese society.

Following World War II, North and South Korea, as we know them today, were a single country with a
uniform population, shared history, common culture and identical standards of living. The paths of
these two nations diverged when the institutions of poverty, embraced by China, descended from the
north and the institutions of capitalism were fostered in the south. Without the rule of law, without
private property rights, without competitive markets and without entrepreneurial activity, North Korea
has become one of the true pariah states in the world. Its citizens live in a perpetual state of starvation
and fear and human rights are non‐existent.

By contrast over a period of fifty short years the south has become one of the Tigers of Asia with high
standards of living, low infant mortality rates, high literacy rate, and endless opportunity.


199476

Posted by indian strategy on Sun, 20 May 2012 22:17 | #

We don’t have a test which has a g loading of 1 (=100 %). But the author says that as long as the test gets a higher g loading the score gains diminish. If test A has a g loading of 60 % and test B has a g loading of 80 and if there are 4 points of gain in test A and 2 points of gain in test B then it means there will be ZERO GAIN in an imaginary test which has a g loading of 100 %. Surely there is no test like this but the trend of these tests from low g to high g proves it. We really have no evidence that any subset of IQ test is less important than g but the concept of g through intercorrelations is important for proving that score gains in any test isn’t generalized to all kinds of tests because then otherwise g would be improved.

The word ‘liberal’ is used for different meanings. It is the opposite synonym for both ‘racist’, ‘conservative’ and ‘Republican’. I myself believe in the racial differences in IQ and other personal traits but support ‘open trade’ and ‘freedom of thought’ as a liberal. Wealth is more dependent on trade than racial differences. Suppose that one is both a good tailor and a good doctor and he can work mostly 8 hours a day. How many hours should he work as a doctor and a tailor? Surely as a doctor he can earn much more so he should work 8 hours as a doctor and give clothes to a tailor. The same idea goes true for the countries. If France produces both wine and textile much better than the other countries and if produces wine better than textile comparatively then France should export only wine and import textile. The main principal of comparative advantage theory in international trade is clear: just focus and select the most profitable areas and sacrifice everything else. This is necessary for the reallocation of resources. While France is doing this (exporting only wine and importing textile) its foreign trade volume (import plus export of the goods & services) gets bigger. So trade volume of a country is a very good economic indicator of how efficiently the resources in the country are allocated. There are many indicators in http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/eco-economy&all=1 The m.ost important one is
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_tra_of_gdp-economy-trade-of-gdp

If 2 countries have the same population approximately and if one has a much bigger trade volume than the other then it means it is using a better reallocation of resources. How does the population affect? As the population gets higher the importance of the trade volume gets lower as there is also the trade within the country. For example UK has 56 % volume of its GDP and France has 53 %. If they get unified as one country (meaning that the population gets higher) their export and import with each other need to be excluded and subtracted from the new item. So while doing a fair measure the population needs to be paid attention. The least crowded countries should be at the top. Anyway I am skeptic about the population of India. Is it really lower than China or about 1.6 billion like some people claim so? If it is 1.2 billion (official) then India is at the 167th place while China is the 125th. If China is more crowded then it means it is using its resources more efficiently. It means India doesn’t use its potential efficiently.

I think the best way of supporting creativity is supporting arts. In order to benefit more from trade volume the governments should support arts, not sports because there are some very important relationships between the personality traits of liberalism and arts.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9221.2008.00668.x/full
Openness was the largest unique predictor of political orientation.
As in all but one of the other samples, higher scores on Openness were significantly associated with increased liberalism. Conscientiousness was the second largest unique predictor of political orientation (b = .15, SE = .02, β = .08, t[17097] = 10.02, p < .001), indicating that higher scores on Conscientiousness were again associated with increased conservatism
Conservatives’ bedrooms tended to include more organizational items, including event calendars and postage stamps. They also contained more conventional decorations and items, including sports paraphernalia, flags of various types, American flags in particular, and alcohol bottles and containers. In general, conservative bedrooms were somewhat neater, cleaner, fresher, organized, and well lit. They were also significantly more likely to contain household cleaning and mending accessories such as laundry baskets, irons and ironing boards, and string or thread. These results appear to confirm theoretical contentions that concerns with cleanliness, hygiene, and order are related to political conservatism (see Table 1). Conservative offices tended to be more conventional, less stylish, and less comfortable, in comparison with liberal offices.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/sbp/sbp/1974/00000002/00000001/art00008
Conservatism, especially as measured by the CI, also correlated significantly with low self concept, conformism, materialism, provincialism, intolerance for ambiguity, traditional family ideology, and authoritarianism


199477

Posted by AryanInside on Fri, 25 May 2012 11:21 | #

Looks like it’s game over for China - the lame. All they’ve accompished in the last 25-26 years was disproving the validity of many contests. China’s high contest rankings not correlating with their contributions clearly proves that the Chinese are genetically incapable of contributing, or are artificially raising their rankings, or both.

Whenever the Chinese do contribute something independently it’s always a contribution that requires no originality, like improving something or making a simple observation. This is shown throughout history.

Chinese worship white people and are just like robots. In the future once computers become faster and can learn and copy things well, how useful will the Chinese be?

All of China’s success just comes from artificial measures and culture, not from any real authentic genius. We would’ve expected any civilization that had the culture to build machines for more than 2,000 years like China did to at least have figured out steam technology or an advanced plumbing system, but China didn’t. I wonder what would’ve happened in history if the Greeks, Egyptians, Sumerians, or Indians would have had the culture to build machines for more than 2,000 years like China did. It’s just by luck and chance that the Chinese were the only ones to have the culture to build machines for more than 2,000 years.

We also would’ve expected any country that’s ranked as high as China has in math contests for 25 years to have at least 5 Fields Medals out from China, instead China has 0. So all China’s done is disprove the validity of the IMO and many other contests.

I think the Chinese should continue to copy, not contribute, and worship white people.

Indians contributing disproportionally more than they should clearly indicates that India will easily surpass China in basically every field by around 2030.

Since the year 2000 India already has 1 Fields Medal equivalent (the Abel prize), also the Rolf Nevanlinna prize, the AKS Primality test (first ever proven primality testing algorithm in polynomial time developed in India), and Manjul Bhargava will likely win a Fields Medal in 2014 since Bhargava has already subsumed Gauss. So within a 7-8 year time period there would’ve already been 1 ethnic Indian Fields Medal, and 1 Indian Abel Prize, that’s 2 Fields Medal equivalents in a 7-8 year period compared to China’s contributions in the last 30 years with a higher literate population, higher average IQ, and better performance in contests.

India already has more modern day mathematical talent than China does (Manjul Bhargava, Akshay Venkatesh, Kannan Soundararajan).

Once India becomes more developed Indians will likely be winning Fields Medal every year that one is given out while all China will be doing is copying and not contributing.

With a lower literate population, average IQ, and performance in contests than both East Asians and Europeans, Indians already have:
World’s youngest to score a perfect on the SAT -  Vinodhini Vasudevan
World’s youngest doctor (learned calculus at age 4) - Balamurali Ambati
Youngest standing professor at Princeton - Manjul Bhargava
World’s youngest film director - Kishan Shrikanth

Tathagat Avatar Tulsi - prodigy, received an undergraduate degree at 10 years old
Priyanshi Somani - Mental Calculator World champion
Akshay Venkatesh - prodigy, graduated at age 15
Viswanathan Anand - Current World Chess Champion

An average IQ of 81 and a lower literate population than both East Asians and Europeans doesn’t match into this data so most of India’s average IQ is just lowered by environmental and health factors.

With a literate population that’s over 1400 million, a high average IQ and high performance in book-style contests we should expect all of these prodigies and geniuses to be East Asian, not Indian.

I guess East Asians must have very few geniuses (if they have a high average IQ the standard deviation must be low).

We already know that in the US Indians have an average IQ of 112 similar to the Jews, and that Indians in almost all non-Indian countries have a much higher average IQ than 81, so most of India’s IQ is lowered by environmental and health factors.

An average IQ of 81 is actually good considering all the malnutrition in India (60% of India was recently underweight), illiteracy, and lack of access to education. Once Indians eliminate these environmental and health factors lowering the average IQ in India, India’s average IQ should go up to around 96-102 and India will have more geniuses than both East Asians and Europeans.

In India there are many ethnic groups with genius IQs:
- Unmixed Brahmins (who all seem to have some form of photographic memory)
- Certain Vaishyas (descendants of the Indus Valley civilization)
- Tamil admixtures
- Many others

So in the near future India will have a higher population of geniuses than both East Asians and Europeans, making average IQ not as relevant, and India will take over basically every field.

The primitive Chinese mind can’t contribute anything requiring originality. Just compare Tao to Bhargava. Tao’s significant contributions all come from stealing ideas from Whites where as Bhargava’s display high originality and independence. Tao’s primitive mind can’t handle Princeton generals, he’s just a UCLA boy.

Green-Tao theorem vs. Bhargava’s Gauss composition laws - Bhargava wins, Bhargava has subsumed Gauss himself, Bhargava’s new Gauss composition laws have found deep applications, have changed mathematics, will continue to find deep applications, and would’ve most likely never been made without Bhargava, the Green-Tao theorem would’ve probably been proven by Timothy Gowers or someone else

Improved Wolff’s bound vs. Bhargava’s special case proof of the Birch and Swinnerton-Dyer conjecture - Bhargava wins again, Tao’s improvement is highly unoriginal and has virtually no effect on mathematics and would’ve most likely been done by someone else, Bhargava actually proved a special case of one of the Millennium Prize Problems

Bhargava spent his childhood playing and socializing, Tao spent his childhood studying and preparing for contests yet he still nearly failed with Princeton generals. All Tao has done his whole life is study, and he still does even today.

The Chinese just can’t compete with Indians in mathematics because being a mathematician has to do with contributing not with winning math contests.

Just look at the intelligence needed for China’s inventions:
Hey look I’m Chinese “Let’s think of a writing system…I got it, let’s just use a different symbol for each word, this way if we have a million different words we’ll need a million different symbols, it’s efficient, it’s an efficient writing system”

Hey look I’m Chinese “Let’s think of an eating utensil…I got it, let’s just use two sticks, that’s a good idea, then let’s use some special techiques to hold the sticks just for eating food, it’s a 2-stick 16-step technique system, it’s efficient, it’s an efficient method”

Looks like it’s game over for China. It doesn’t matter what anyone (including self-hating Indians) say, India will take over every field and surpass the world in the near future.

India has already won the war. The Chinese are just all talk and contests, there’s no room for contributing. It’s already over for China.


199478

Posted by AryanInside on Fri, 25 May 2012 12:14 | #

If we go by population density, even Nigeria is more crowded than China, and India is more crowded than Japan see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_population_density

If this had been the year 1996 (10 years after China started performing well in contests) I’m sure lots of people would’ve predicted great contributions out of China, but that didn’t happen.

With the population density, literate population, average IQ, and high contest ranking advantage we should expect the Chinese be contributing the most by now, but they aren’t.

Building up infrastructure doesn’t require a genius IQ, just funding, so nothing China’s done really demonstrates genius.

The main reason China was only slightly ahead of India is because China is much larger with more space. India has more challenges because India is so crowded.

The reason why the Chinese only talk about contests, building up a strong economy and other things not related to contributions is because the Chinese aren’t capable of contributing. Once China is developed all they’ll be doing is copying, improving, and making contributions that require no originality.

Once India’s literate population goes above 90% and India’s internet usage goes above 30% India would’ve already far surpassed China in contributions and almost everything else.

India has lots and lots of genius IQ ethnic groups, since the Chinese are homogeneous they have very few. The reason why they perform well in book-style contests is because self-discipline predicts GPA and the Chinese are unusually cruel so Chinese students have more pressure. Even people with IQs in the high 90s can get 100% scores on calculus exams, it’s just self-discipline.


199479

Posted by high iq EA low iq SA on Sat, 26 May 2012 04:43 | #

lol, south asian talk about how east asian including chinese disprove validity of science contests? South asians can’t win any of the contests that require intellectual rigor, period, even when indians sends hundreds of thousands of their best minds to compete every year. Anything south asians including indians participate in, they fail on the grandeur level, including all of their so called high-iq sub-groups. On the contrary, these scientific contests just proved south asians including indians not only can’t compete with east asians on the intellectual level, but neither on the character level. if south asians can’t win a contest, they simply trash the contest. south asians are so absurd, they are bordering ludicrous.

south asians are obsessed with whites and jews, constantly worshiping and compare themselves with them, yet south asians simply don’t have the same intellectual capability to achieve at whites/jew’s level.  south asians pride themselves as better english speakers, thanks to their former colonial master, without british colonization, the sub continent would be in a even worse shape than it is today. even with their democratic societies, and white countries help, they continue to demonstrate they can only parrot/imitate what their british/american masters do, yet can’t show any capability or even potential to become anything significant.  the fact is, once china becomes a free thinking/democratic society, china, along with rest of the east asian will simply pull further ahead, japan is a good example how china will become economically and scientifically and times 10000. India will simply be pakistan/bangladesh times 10000.

even chinese growing up in a non-democratic, non free thinking society beats indians hands down in scientific contributions, imagine how a democratic and free thinking china will become, it will just walk all over south asians. the fact that south asians have so few nobel winners compare to east asians simply demonstrate south asian have already reached limit in their capabilities, even as they enjoy free thinking/democratic societies. On the other hand, the number of nobel prize japan has won demonstrates what china will become in the future. if chinese were given even 1/10 of free speech/thinking rights as indians do, china will win 15~20 field medals / nobel prize for every one by an indian. The fact is, south asian including Indian have already reached their intellectual limit, they have already received many technology transfers from their british/american masters, they have democratic/free thinking societies and abilities to speak in their colonial master’s tongue. yet south asians still can’t compete with the chinese in science, even as china is barred from receiving american/european high tech products, and even as china has a political system that ruthlessly stifles creativity.

all those indian proclaimed “world renowned/respected/genius indian contributors”, lol, are of course indian claims. just like how indians claim IITs are the best in the world only to find out their no-one—heard-of-besides-indians treasured university are ranked way behind dozens of chinese schools and toward the bottom of the ranking. south asians worship whites, taking pride in speaking white master’s language, actively courting white people, seeking their technological and financial help, yet white people still don’t give them time of the day, lol… why? maybe south asian just aren’t capable? yet, even as chinese and americans treating each other like enemies, and even as american bar all high tech transfers to china, chinese still top indian in every scientific field. of course, south asians will continue be obessessed with their white/jew masters and dream of immigrating to their countries at all cost, all the while east asians are creating new world order, both politically and scientifically with china at the top and take pride in speaking their OWN LANGUAGES.

One thing I do admire about south asian are that they are always so optimistic about the future, like “in 20 years, we’ll surpass… win every… “, or flat out make up lies like “1 in 5 of ... are indians, 1 in 3 of .... are indians”, you fill the blank. bragging and lie are such a normal features of south asians, it’s like part of their DNA, lol.


199480

Posted by high iq EA low iq SA on Sat, 26 May 2012 05:35 | #

indian claims chinese only excel in contest but haven’t been able to translate that into contributions. but indians not only has less contributions than the chinese, they don’t even stand a chance in any intellectual competition. iqs in the 80s indeed… wonder what’s hindering more indians from getting educated, china was able to educate more people than india even at the time when chinese economy was devastated by communism, and people were much poorer than indians. i bet IQ does make a difference.


199481

Posted by SAMBIT on Sun, 27 May 2012 11:40 | #

Hey a 16 year old Indian Bengali boy from kolkata has recently solved 350 years old puzzle given by Sir Issac Newton.That 16 year old boy Sourya Roy had solved this problem in Germany regarding the trajectory of a particle being thrown parallel to earth and he had calculated the resultant of the required force needed to put the particle on same point.Indian may have less iq-but Bengali ,specially Hindu bengali who are only 60 million in population has already produced best physicist from Asia-Satyendra Bose,Asia’s only economist Nobel laureate Amartya Sen,best literary figure from Asia-Rabindranath Tagore.

And East Asian certainly have high iq but all achievements have come from Japan only,and West Bengal had produced 5 Nobel laureate and Bangladesh 1.And there were 3 Nobel which Bengal had missed whose work had won Nobel after their death.The greatest architect of 20th century is also from Bangladesh.

@High iq EA

        From your post it looks like you certainly have very poor iq-I think this 16 year old boy has achieved more than winning so many math olympiad contest that China had already achieved.Why China can not produce a Satyendra Bose or a science polymath like Jc Bose with 1.4 billion population?Mount everest height was also calculated by a Bengali mathematician Radhanath Sikdar.Why China can not produce anyone like these men.The answer is lack of ideology.The reason Jewish and whites perform so well in inventions and discovery because of their system and great ideology.Nikola Tesla was such a genius who could think atleast 100 years ahed of his time,that’s why nobody during his lifetime could not recognise his genius during his life time.He could memorize thing for months because of his superlative memory and ideolgy of thinking prowess.

So it’s not only high iq but deep independent thinking power of someone can reach him to the pinnacle of success.Japanese have got that thinking power,that’s why they have produced way more pioneers in every field than China.


199482

Posted by indian strategy on Tue, 29 May 2012 17:56 | #

I think an idiot Indian (Astro, Sambit, Indians are smarter, AryanInside) write the same stupid things under different nick names. I really can’t stand reading the whole message filled with incredible grammar mistakes in almost every sentence and idiot arguments. he tries to respond me that Nigeria is more crowded. )) I wouldn’t be able to simplify any more. Astro or whatever the hell you are, Ricardo’s comparative advantage theory has nothing to do with the population density but it is related with population, they are different. Do not try to understand because you are absolutely an idiot!

I heard no one from India except the mathematician Ramanujan and there were dozens of better mathematicians from the West in the history. He is not that important. Instead of giving the names of lots of unknown Indian scientists you should compare the average income of India (3700 $) with the other countries if you can. That is the summary of how successful the Indians are. Do a favor for everyone and just get lost with your disgusting and idiot comments from this forum forever.


199483

Posted by SAMBIT on Wed, 30 May 2012 09:02 | #

Sorry MR. Strategy,arguably the most hopeless idiot in the entire thread, I am not the semi literate buffoon like Indians are smart or Astro or any other idiot who had posted in this blog.I just mentioned the achievement of a 16 year old boy from India who solved a critical puzzle of Newtonian mechanics recently in Germany.

Quite frankly speaking apart from Ramanujan India had not produced any world renowned mathematician.And apart from Satyendra Bose India also had not produced any world class Physicist.As one of the father of quantum mechanics he stands out the only big name form entire Asia along with European big names of the then era.

I was just replying to the disgusting nerdy geek came with the handle “high iq Ea,low iq Sa”-So rather than fighting with me you should make peace with him.And the whole world knows how much all you East Asian can speak English.Don’t worry I am form a region in India which has huge amount of Chinese and most of them are leading their lives by selling shoes and doing restaurant business.In fact from that 17th century British era they have not progressed even a single inch.

And since you have claimed yourself an Economist,I hope you have heard the names of sir Partha Dasgupta(the first Economist in the world who have become a fellow of Royal society which was exclusively for scientist) and Asia’s only Nobel laureate Economist Amartya Sen.Can you name any East Asian Economist who have achieved anything near to these men.Although they were born in current day Bangladesh but now they are part of Indian State of west Bengal.And what about Dr. Muhammad Yunus who is often being called the “banker’s of world’s poor”!!!Sorry to contradict your view but no East Asian had done anything near to these men.

And Indians are smart named one Indian Scientist Sir JC Bose-One of the greatest polymath in science and the first man from Asia who started modern science in asia.If you don’t know his achievements then beyond the shadow of any doubt It’s quite evident that you are a fucked up retarded moron who should be kept inside the small room of little knowledge which you call home.

And don’t come to fight with me-You can rest assure I have more knowledge of science than all you East Asian added together who have posted in this blog.But as good guy who has no intention to fight with anybody here must bring one great Chinese polymath who had not been discussed by anybody in the entire thread-Great polymath of 11th centurt Shen Kuo-certainly one of the greatest of all time.

Recently in 2008 the only Asian scientist whose bust was created in Britain was Sir Jc Bose(which is being kept at Christ college,Cambridge university beside Darwin and English poet Milton).why British only felicitated him?why not any East Asian or any other from India or rest of Asia-Because they are aware of his contributions in science which you nerdy geek can not digest.


199484

Posted by indian strategy on Wed, 30 May 2012 20:40 | #

Who do you think you are deluding? You come with the same idiot boring claims with different nick names. You should ask the Western people what they know about Ramanujan. I bet most of them either know nothing about him or never heard of him. You couldn’t answer my question about the average Indian income (3700 $) because you can’t. I the Chinese sell shoes what do the Indians do to earn 3700 $? The Indians should build first toilets instead of doing scientific research. Here is your country’s success.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aErNiP_V4RLc&refer=exclusive

As to scientists do you know any of the names who were cited most between 1997-2007 in physics? There were NO WHITES and NO INDIANS at the top 6 because they were all East Asians! Get surprised??? I can easily pick any name from that list and claim that he was a better scientist than your so-called scientists and you can’t prove anything!

http://library.poly.edu/news/2008/01/17/the-100-most-cited-scientists
http://in-cites.com/nobel/2007-phy-top100.html


199485

Posted by SAMBIT on Thu, 31 May 2012 08:43 | #

Strategy ,it seems like you are not only an idiot but also a lier.Average per capita income for Indian is about 1100 USD,not 3700 according 2011 census and statistics that happened in India excluding non residencial Indian (NRI).

With this per capita income it’s impossible to do any innovative work in India.India spends only 1/250 amount of money on education compared to Usa.So how can you compare India with America or wester countries.But still Indian state of West Bengal has produced some great minds in every field compared to some top European countries with only 60-70 million population but with economy 1/100 times than most of those European countries.


Satyendra Bose and Jc Bose are rare genius.Satyendra Bose’s one single paper created sensation as he created a new field of quantum statistics and 50 percent particle of this Universe(Boson) is being named after him.If he would have done his work in Europe then he would have become as genius as Bohr or Dirac or Schrodinger.Infact Einstein was not fair with him regarding his second paper which according to many physicist of that era was equally pioneering.

And Jc Bose-Lord Kelvin and Rayleigh said that no western scientist would not even have worked with such primitive instruments with absolutely no facilities under which Bose worked and did perform one of the greatest invention of all time.
He also invented microwave and was the first man in the world who experimentally showed that plant has also life.Now if anybody from east or west or any other part of the world have not heard these names then certainly they do not have any knowledge of science.for example you don’t even know that before watson And Crick DNa was discovered(almost most of the work was done)by Rosalind franklin but she died in cancer at the age of 37.later Watson and Crick got recognisation by using her previous work.

And one more thing that I am not any of the guy who has posted previously so today I will take another great physicist from Japan-Hideki Yukawa,After Satyendra Bose and Abdus Salam of Pakistan he is the 3rd best physicist from Asia in modern era.

And please don’t disturb me with anymore stupid,retarded reply as I have no intention to fight with anybody like Indian are smart or Aryan side or anybody else.


199486

Posted by indian strategy on Thu, 31 May 2012 14:25 | #

You are so idiot that you can’t do even a search on the internet. I didn’t read your entire garbage as I would pay no attention to one who doesn’t know his country’s average income and can’t use internet. India’s average income is 3694 $ according to IMF, 3425 $ to World Bank and 3700 $ to CIA. That includes all the taxes.
PPP (purchasing power parity) shows that the prices are adjusted meaning one Big Mac has the same price everywhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html
GDP - per capita (PPP): $3,700 (2011 est.)


199487

Posted by astro on Fri, 01 Jun 2012 01:05 | #

You two guys are made for each other, a real match in stupidity - A retarded Indian Bengali babu vs a Universally stupid Chinese guy,,,,carry on we are watching the fun show.


199488

Posted by SAMBIT on Fri, 01 Jun 2012 08:09 | #

Strategy,now you understand that idiot Astro(who does represent this 81 iq)and I are different person.And about all those stats just google per capita income of India and read the encyclopedia where you will find per capita income of every Indian states.The highest per capita income Indian state is Maharashtra with $1800 and lowest is Bihar with $423.

Now do you even know that the number one science journal in the world Nature’s top 1 percentile authors are either Jewish or whites.There are very few Asians in top 1 percentile most of whom becomes future Nobel prize winners.In Cambridge university they posted a survey(jointly with Royal society) where top cited east Asian authors are mostly Japanese.So where is Chinese presence my friend?There were only 4 south Asian (3 Indian,one Bangladeshi) who were cited in top 200.

Now you are certainly right that India does not have much chance to compete with India considering huge amount of population of the country are universal idiot like Astro with iq and eq level less than Australian Aboriginal.But I was just checking the Pulitzer winners from china and I did not find any single one-India have 4 including one of the youngest ever Jhumpa Lahiri.

And I will end this post by making one single statement-In last century Satyendra Bose alone had made more contributions than all Chinese added together and so far in 3 different years 9 persons have one Nobel related to His statics and bec.So I don’t have to talk about others.similarly Ramanujan showed nearly 3000 formulas related to series which has vast implementation in both Mathematics and physics.And no Chinese has so far has produced engineers like Fazlur khan (the greatest architect and structural engineer of last century) or Vinod Dham who created a chip using which almost 80 percent computers of current world run.

So all your stupid claims does not make any sense and rather than fighting against each other why people of both these country is not learning from other developed countries?


199489

Posted by SAMBIT on Fri, 01 Jun 2012 08:17 | #

in the above post it would be rather-India does not have much chance to compete with China in future considering pathetic deluded nerd like Astro are living…


199490

Posted by Astro on Sun, 03 Jun 2012 21:36 | #

You stupid SAMBIT better get out from here with your big Zero IQ, Every quote of yours is either biased or incomplete. You are a disgrace to Indians. You do not even know the Indian Nobel price winners in science, If you know then why didn’t you mention it you moron. Anyway I am not wasting my time to point out the mistakes, just not worth it.

 

 


199491

Posted by SAMBIT on Mon, 04 Jun 2012 09:18 | #

Expected reply from a guy who has come from a very dumb, primitive race with iq level somewhere around 75-80.Idiot,it’s Nobel prize,not Nobel price.

And read this wikipedia page of famous people from Kolkata where you will find the names of all Nobel Laureates of West Bengal.Apart from those 5,there are 3 Indian who won with Us nationality working in Usa/uk.Those 3 are not Indian.And why you are caring so much about Nobel Prize.Newton,Galileo,Maxwell,Faraday,Pasteur did not require any Nobel prize to become famous.In 20th century the greatest inventors like Tesla,Edison or physicist like Bose,Oppenheimer,Fred Hoyle,or current day’s Stephen Hawkins have not won Nobel.In chemistry Mendeleev did not win Nobel.In literature arguably the greatest poet of all time Leo Tolstoy did not win Nobel.Sn Bose was never nominated for Nobel prize and Jc Bose Did not even patent his work after Inventing radio,that’s why he missed out.Physician Subhas Mukhopadhya missed out Nobel as he died long ago before 2010 when Nobel was awarded in 2010 for ivf to British Edwards(his co researcher Stetope also died long ago).A man ‘s name will be written in annals of history by his work,not by any particular award.Do you think that Raman or Chandrasekhar a better physicist than Bose?

I know you goof ball does know anything about science,so for your help Iam recommending you to read this book

              Remarkable physicist from (top 50) Galileo to Yukawa published by Cambridge University press
                                      author-Ioan James of Oxford

It’s available in pdf format-read it and you will find only two Asian-S.N Bose and Yukawa(i.e, a Bengali and a Japanese).

They published top 50 Mathematician also where no Asian has featured in top 50.

And even you are so glad about that coveted award then why apart from kolkata(i.e capital of Bengal),no other Indian state has not produced a single Nobel prize winners working in their home?

And about My iq,you can rest assure it’s not only more than twice that you have got but certainly lot higher than every single primitive member of your race living around this planet.


199492

Posted by Astro on Mon, 04 Jun 2012 21:57 | #

The only Indian Nobel laureates in Science are C.V.Raman , Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar , Venkatraman Ramakrishnan and Khorana. You didnt even mentioned these names why ? because they are not Bengalis ?. You have became too small in thinking regionally. This is the curse India has due to dumb and narrow minded guys like you. If Indians go abroad their genes get mutated ? In terms of Innovations neither India nor China is a player and that is not the topic of discussion here. Go and read all the early posts from all those smart Indians and think big. India is not that shit hole bengla as you think. India was one of the greatest ancient civilizations and will be a super power in the future, China can do nothing about it, unless a bunch of jokers like you plays regionalism and screws it up. Go and read “Breaking India ” by Rajiv Malhotra and Aravindan Neelakantan, read it and come back to me, then only you know what I am saying. India is not a union of states, it is a strong nation by itself. That is the way every Indian has to think whether they live in Bengla or abroad. At least this Chinese guy has a sense of belonging for his country which you don’t even have, pathetic…................


199493

Posted by SAMBIT on Tue, 05 Jun 2012 09:52 | #

I knew an irrational retarded nerd like you will not even understand the meaning of my post.First,I took two of those Physics laureates names in my previous post and also mentioned about all 3 who had done their work in abroad.But do you even know anything about their works and it’s impact on those certain fields?the clearcut answer is No.And 3 of those laureates are Brahmins about whom you have made derogatory remarks in your previous posts and now you are boasting for those same guys-What a shame on you!!And there is one more science laureate from India Sir Ronald ross who was born in India and also did his work in India.You don’t even know how to count laureates of a country…And there are 3 Indian who should have won but missed out are salman Rushdie in Literature,In physics ECG Sudarshan and father of modern Astrophysics MN Saha.

Now at this point I realise that you certainly do not understand anything about Science or Technology-So I am diverting to different fields-Can you name the greatest Economist of last century…Oh wait he was not a laureate.

And since Olympic is approaching in London,so let’s talk about some sports.

Muhammad Ali,arguably the greatest sports person of the last century only won a single gold medal in 1960.Sergey Bubka who created 35 world records in pole vault only won one single gold medal in Olympic.Roger Federer has not won one gold medal yet in singles competition at Olympic.

So what the hell a particular award means to showcase someone’s genius?

Richard Feynman called it a burden while Linus Pauling after winning his first Nobel in Chemistry made jokes about it.According to your theory John Bardeen will be the greatest Physict of all time since he won it twice.

Although you come with the handle of Astro ,(but you certainly don’t know anything about astronomy)so let me talk about some astronomy.We all have heard the names of Galileo,Copernicus,Kepler and Newton.But how many of us have heard about Tycho Brahe without whom there would not have been any Kepler?

I certainly don’t want to waste any more time talking with a cabbage headed retarded soul like you,but you certainly an iconic figure of dumb group of people as already mentioned by the blogger.Wake up dude,the Chinese has already created sensation in field of Sports and if they invest properly and create a proper system,then they will harvest gold in field of education also.But with people like you it’s certainly impossible for India to match with China in near future.Your comment about Strategy-‘universal idiot Chinese’ tells that you have not gained proper education from your childhood.


199494

Posted by Astro on Tue, 05 Jun 2012 16:27 | #

People remember Mohamed Ali because he won heavy weight championships multiple times. When it comes to games and boxing Championships are the criteria not Olympics medals, for sports yes. Who is great?  a” world heavy weight champion” or an Olympics medal winner in Boxing. You always thinks in the other way around that is your problem. IQ problem ?

-Richard Feynman called it a burden while Linus Pauling after winning his first Nobel in Chemistry made jokes about it

So what?  it is only a joke !!!!!!!!

-Why Tycho Brahe is not known ? His cosmology was geocentric, in opposition to Copernicus and that was the biggest blunder, everybody knows it except you.

Decimal system is an Indian invention, w/o it there cant be any higher maths or science but how many acknowledges it ? why ? because there are nothing like patenting in those times , that is why always awards and honours matters.

Did you have a degree ? if so why did you took it ? that paper matters right ? Can a doctor practise w/o licencing ? These are not for show cases , these are a must.

Yes I too do not have time to talk to a dumb ass who cant even acknowledge Nobel laureates, Sir Ronald Ross is not an Indian origin ( Ancestry).

Let us stop this nonsense, Chinese fellows may be enjoying our conversation, You are the one started discrediting the Indian handlers here and did a tooth picking by yourself. That is why I have to respond for them, they might not have noticed it , if so you will get another load from them. So think as an Indian first…then you can think as a Bengali , we dont care !!!!!!!!!!!


199495

Posted by indian strategy on Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:02 | #

Sambit like I explained before you still ask the same question about GDP per capita. PPP (purchasing power parity) is calculated as if the prices of the goods and services in different countries are equal (as much as they can be). Normally because of the cheap labor especially the services are much cheaper in poor countries. So the poor countries have higher PPP than nominal and the wealthy countries have lower. By the adjustment of PPP the poor countries and wealthy countries come closer to each other; it is a much better measure. You don’t need to trust Wikipedia but note that the other source is the official site of CIA. India’s average income is 3700 $.

As to IQ tests the reliability of these tests is surely questioned. Note that the enrichment programs in the US are the most reliable ones, not only in the US but worldwide. They are not double-blind because both sides are checking the reliability of the tests as they have responsibility to the government and these programs require huge amounts from the government budget. But even during the period of Bush (Republicans) still the programs (No Child Left Behind) continued. Curious Indian said that if there is only one (as a counterexample) program improved the IQ then it will be enough (!) to prove that IQ can change. No, sorry it is not simple as that. No one is stupid. Only Head Start included 7 million students and there are numerous other studies which all failed without any exception. The scores all faded out in the adulthood as the brain ends its development. So if there was any study which is said to have improved IQ by accident (found not because they are any better in science than the US but they were just luckier) then this method should have been copied to America and generalized. I am pretty sure that the liberals would never miss it because they always come with new, very creative, ridiculous and stupid excuses for their failures.  So I don’t need to check every study in Venezuela, Zaire or maybe India etc. So if there is a specific method of improving IQ then just bring it to America and do it honestly while being watched by numerous supervisors. No, sorry there is absolutely no study like this in America! So if there is any study in the other countries I will certainly question an error of measurement. There can be several reasons. The study may be double blind (not checked by the right-hand side), include only children (prone to fade in the end at the adulthood) or not a permanent gain (scores gained temporarily just by having learned some tricks of tests or the types of questions but being unable to perform in a different type of test, shortly scores gained unrelated to g). The importance of IQ may be questioned as China is said to have an average of 105 according to Lynn but still is very poor.  But I will still claim that it is very highly genetic unless I am convinced that a specific method has been proved in the enrichment programs in America.


199496

Posted by indian strategy on Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:22 | #

ı was going to paste the link of the author below about the subject, I just forgot.
http://tongue-tied2.blogspot.com/2009/12/is-brain-like-muscle-really-i-thought-i.html
I thought I would reproduce the Newsweak column below as proof that Leftists never learn anything. Results such as they describe have been known for years. What nobody has been able to show is that the beneficial effects of special training are lasting. Educationally “enriched” kids are just as dumb when they get to adulthood as are control groups—mainly because environmental handicaps tend to fade in importance as we get older. I noted recently some very powerful genetic research which showed exactly that: Environmental influences do matter somewhat in childhood but that fades out so that in adulthood it is your genetics that dictate your abilities.

Probably what the findings below show is that if you train kids in doing the sort of tasks that you encounter in IQ tests, they will get better at doing IQ tests for as long as they remember the training.

There is a slightly expanded account of the research concerned here but I can find no trace of it being published in a peer-reviewed academic journal. That leaves a lot of questions unanswered. It is, for instance, normal for there to be a “learning effect” in IQ testing. If you give the same test to the same people two weeks apart, they will do significantly better the second time around. That alone could explain the results below. The proper academic way to circumvent that problem is to use a “parallel form” of the test on the second time around. Most tests do have such forms available. Did the researchers below do that? Who knows? Other Problems: Was the study double-blind? Again, who knows? So I think that the bright-eyed enthusiasm shown below is mainly a product of uncritical and uninformed thinking.


199497

Posted by The Great on Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:09 | #

Now I got to back up Sambit here, although I don’t agree with him/her completely - for example, I think Tesla was just a big braggart who never proved his crazy claims and got a patent for a lot of already invented things. For example, the basic principles of A.C current was already outlined by Faraday and there is some evidence that there was use of AC current in Europe even before Tesla patented it.

But Sambit certainly has point as Bengalis are probably the most successful group in India. In fact, Bengalis might as well be the smartest bunch in the whole planet.

Let’s take physics:
The greatest physicist this country has produced is S.N Bose by miles.
Bose-Einstein Condensate is easily one of the most important works in ALL of physics. Some have even said that it is possibly THE most important work, as important as relativity. And unlike the name might suggest, the work was practically Bose’s alone, Einstein had very little involvement apart from translating and publishing in a reputed journal.

And don’t even bring Raman and Chandrasekhar here. Arthur Eddington got Nobel for relativity, Einstein didn’t(he did for photo-electric effect). So by that logic, Eddington’s work should be considered greater than Einstein? Don’t even bring something so stupid.

Bose’s work has indirectly spun about a dozen nobel prizes, the latest being just a couple of years back. And I remember these physicists saying what an irony it was that Bose himself was never given the award.
And those who are saying that they never heard of Bose, who are you kidding? The most important particle in physics - also known as the god particles - are named after S.N.Bose.
If you have never heard about S.N.Bose, then it speaks volumes about your own idiocy, not anything about S.N.Bose.

Not to mention other great physicists like M.N.Saha. Then there are also things like the Roychoudury equation in physics. There was a lot of Buzz about a bet between S.Hawking and Kip thorne. The one who solved that puzzle is, however, a team of Indian physicists led by a Bengali string theorist.

Let’s take inventions:
There can’t be any doubt that the greatest inventor from this country was J.C.Bose and he was a Bengali. In fact, he is easily one of the greatest inventors ever.
The current method of test-tube babies is also thanks to a Bengali.
One of the top sound-system companies BOSE is made by a Bengali.
In fact, there are almost always some Bengalis making the news about science. For example, recently there was a news about a chip made by Bengali named Raja Basu.
The ISI kolkata(mostly bengalis) has contributed a lot to AI research.
I can go on for ever.

Let’s take music:
Who is the most popular musician in India? The answer to that is R.D.Burman - even 20 years after his death. Just ask any RJ of any Hindi FM channel. The one whose songs are always on demand is none other than a Bengali named R.D.Burman and even today’s musicians are not as much in demand as he is, unless it’s a newly released song.  He is also the one person whose songs get remixed the most. And practically all of modern Indian musicians will say that their biggest inspiration was R.D.Burman. R.D.Burman’s music is one of those things that feels better with time. The more you hear it, the better it gets.

Some Indian musicians have gone on record to say that not only is RDBurman the best musician the world has ever seen, but also that there will never be another one like him. Then there have been other musical experts who have said that “Puccini was probably the best musician in the first half of 20th century, and R.D.Burman was probably the best musician of the 2nd half of 20th century”.

But RDB is by no means the only great Bengali musician. For example, his father SDBurman holds a legendary status himself. Sachin Tendulkar was named after him.
Lata mangeskar, India’s most successful singer who has sung in many different languages rates Salil Chowdhury as probably the best. Hemata Mukherji was another true great. Even the legendary singer Kishore Kumar has produced some musical gems as a composer.
Not to mention that there were other great Bengali musicians who made music in Bengali only.

It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that since very early times in Indian film industry the Bengalis have made up nearly half of the top musicians. From Anil Biswas of early days to the golden era of Salil Chowdhury, Hemanta Mukherji(Hemant kumar), SD Burman , RD Burman to the likes of Bappi Lahiri to todays Pritam, Shantanu Moitra, Jeet Ganguly - half the top of the chart musicians have always been Bengalis. This is remarkable considering that the only two official bengali states are West Bengal and Tripura.

Of course, when the national anthems of India , Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are by a Bengali - you don’t have to say much more about their musical ability. Rabindra Sangeet is an entire genre of music in itself. The national song of India Vande Mataram is also by a Bengali.

Let’s take movies:
Satyajit Ray is easily one of the greatest auteurs of the world of all time. May be even the very best of all.
Japan’s great Akira Kurosawa had said ” To exist and not have watched Satyajit Ray’s movies is like living in this world without knowing about the sun or the moon”
Stephen Spielberg’s E.T is also said to be originally his idea.

And Ray is not by any means the only great movie maker we have had. We had several others. In fact, some of the big names in Hindi film industry are Bengalis as well.


Let’s take magic:
P.C.Sorcar senior is given the title of the Father of Indian Magic. He was probably the greatest magician in the world during his time and his son probably continues be the greatest magician in the world.
David Copperfield got a lot of publicity in the west after he vanished the statue of Liberty in NIGHT time after spending a lot of money. However, Sorcar junior made the Taj Mahal disappear in broad DAY light and with less expense. And don’t even think that vanishing is the only thing he can do. He can do lots of incredible things - for example, he is probably a greater escape artist than Houdini etc.

Here is a video of Sorcar (the son). There were better videos a year ago. Looks like they got taken away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb3h4sTFzaQ

The video also briefly talks about the Indian Rope Trick. Many believe that there was never such a trick. However, the most credible evidence of the existence of this trick exists in Jahangir’s diary and autobiography. And it is well known that the magicians in Jahangir’s court were practically all Bengalis. So if the Indian rope trick ever existed it almost certainly belonged to Bengalis.

Let’s take chess and mathematics:

  Yes, we haven’t produced any mathematician of Ramanujan’s caliber, but we did produce some pretty decent mathematicians. And I was having a look at the IMO candidates selected from India. I found that for nearly a decade the trend has been that about half of all the participants are from Bengal circle. This was surprising, because I know very well that there is very little awareness about IMO in Bengal. Certainly Bengalis don’t take this competition any more seriously than other states do. 

Yes, we have never produced any chess world champion like Anand, either. But we don’t do badly in chess. West Bengal is one of the states that has produced the highest number of grandmasters for India.(I am not even counting those Bangladesh grandmasters). Most of these Bengali grandmasters could not even continue further training abroad (like Anand was able to do because he was from a rich family)

And let me mention this- at least a small part of Anand’s achievement is shared by a Bengali. Surya Sekhar Ganguly was the only Indian assistant to Anand and he has been so for many years. And this guy, S.S.Ganguly, was at one point THE YOUNGEST PERSON TO BEAT A GRANDMASTER.
We also have some very promising champion players at very junior level (winning asian and world titles). Hopefully, some of them will make it big as they grow up.


Let’s take literaure and Economics:
The first Nobel prize for Asia was won by a Bengali, for literature. Some of the most cherished works of literature in India were written by various Bengalis, and a Bengali is the only Asian Nobel prize winner in Economics. Need I say more? 
Well, Sambit was saying something about Pulitzer prize. Even most Bengalis are unaware, but even last year’s pulitzer prize for non-fiction was given to a Bengali for a book about cancer.

Also:
The first Non-European person to become a fellow of the Royal Society of Science was also a Bengali chemist.
And I am no spiritual person, but I have seen a list of top 10 geniuses of all time made up by a white person on the net, and the one non-european who made that list was Swami Vivekananda. So this was a surprise that they have heard his name and regard him so highly.

Sorry for all the bragging. But when someone throws dirt on the floor, someone has to do the dirty job of cleaning it up. Everything I said is true.
While trying to look good in front of foreigners some are willing to play the dirty game of “look we are so good, but they are not so special”.
But even those who are trying to call it a “myth” that bengalis are smart know it very well that the stereotype in India that “Bengalis are smart” exist for very good reason. Bengalis are probably the single most successful group in all of India and possibly even in all of Asia, despite the 3rd world economy.

And I can sense some non-sensical replies coming trying to demean us bengalis, but I will not even bother replying unless I sense any meaning or honesty.


199498

Posted by The Great on Sat, 16 Jun 2012 01:57 | #

Oh and take music once again:
I cannot believe I missed out on Pandit Ravishankar.
George Harrison from Beatles has described Ravi as the “greatest musician he has ever known”.
Ravi Shankar is a Bengali as well.

And his both daughters Norah Jones and Anushka Shankar seems to be have got the musical genes. I think Norah made a record once with the number of Grammies she won. And Anushka is just as good, just may be a little less popular.


199499

Posted by Astro on Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:07 | #

I have nothing against SAMBIT he has some great points but he was going in a wrong direction, sorry SAMBIT if I have hurt you with my harsh comments, I apologize for it. Again another Bengali babu? West Bengal has 5th place in GDP and in per capital income but why only 13th place in literacy among other Indian states, if they are so smart? so don’t bark too much on it. Indian scientists are all Indians, all of them are great and are a proud for any Indian. Only fools think it regional wise. think big think globally. See this is an old strategy to divide people regionally and nationally, that is the way foreigners conquered India and other nations. Now the most growing nations are India and China and are a threat to west. white supremo’s knows this, they will play any dirty game to create an enmity with these two nations to keep them at bay and that is what this forum is doing, think and wake up you guys !!!!!!!!!!!!!


199500

Posted by India won the war on Sun, 17 Jun 2012 08:01 | #

Wait, did I read that correctly? China won the war back in sixties?
That’s ridiculous. India did have more casualties, but that does not mean that they lost the war. China came with a surprise attack and then ran away when things started to get worse for them. They even learned a little bit of Hindi like “hindi chini bhai bhai”(india and china are brothers) to calm down the situation. Right now China probably has the upper hand, but back then they would have definitely lost if the battle continued.


199501

Posted by The Great on Sun, 17 Jun 2012 13:26 | #

@Astro

Income and literacy are not the only things that determine intelligence. In fact, sometimes poverty and illiteracy makes it more difficult to become successful.

But I agree with you on other things. We should see ourselves as an Indian first and not with regionalism. I hate bragging, but someone had to reply to all that non-sense about “Bengalis are not really that smart, it’s all just a myth”.

And may be you are correct. It’s possible that all these anti-Indian comments are actually the work of some mischievous group that is trying to create a divide within Indians and a rift between India and China because India and China combined pose a big threat to them.


@India won the war

Hindi Chini bhai bhai? Awesome!


199502

Posted by Astro on Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:21 | #

@Great.

Yes GDP and per capital income does not provide the actual picture of the smartness of a countries citizens, especially in a Capitalist economy as it is related to literacy and equal opportunities. There can be very rich people and very poor people even though the GDP and per capita are high and hence it is not a right measurement, that is what happened not only for Bengal but also for India as a whole. For China being a communist nation the situation is different that is why they could achieve a high literacy rate and there by IQ measurements. When India achieves more than 90% of literacy the average IQ will definitely go above 100. Indians has the highest IQ in US pushing the Chinese to the 3rd place. Critics may say that it is not the right representation,  If that is the case then every Olympics winner cant be a right representation of his country of origin. IQ depends on many factors even the confidence makes a difference. The week when OBAMA became the president, authorities in US conducted IQ Tests among school students and surprisingly the black students matched in their scores with white counterparts though it only lasted for a week. What was that magic ? with mere confidence black children could match with whites. So race doesn’t matter, environments opportunities, literacy, hard working and even just confidence boosts the IQ. IQ changes (Flynn effect). I am missing “Curious Indian” here, he had some great points on this, He might have got fed up with that Chinese guy.

Did anybody noticed this forum ? this is a white supremo’s forum. They want to keep India and China at bay, If India and China joints together no force can stand against them. Can any one point out a single war between Indian and China before the communist china and British Imperialism? Himalayas is not an excuse because then there should not have been any cultural exchanges including Buddhism. Chinese and Indians should recognize this.

In second world war why did US bombed Japan rather than bombing Germany ? racism right. Pearl Harbour is just an excuse only. That doesn’t mean all whites are racist only a few % are morons like a small % of Chinese. So we all should fight against these minority racial moron’s irrespective of race, nationality and religion.

Sikhs are considered as dumb with so many sardari jokes but they are one of the most successful Indians right ?, Mallus has the highest literacy that doesn’t mean they are the smartest, they are one of the smartest Indians, same with Gugus, Marathis and for everyone one. Yes there are many smart bengalis, Bengali’s has contributed a lot but I prefer to call them as Indians rather than Bengali’s because the world knows Indians more than Bengali’s…..................


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Posted by India won the war on Mon, 18 Jun 2012 07:05 | #

Hindi Chini bhai bhai? Awesome!

Yes, but they must have pronounced it INDI SINI BY BY.


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Posted by The Great on Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:47 | #

@India won the war
LOL

@Astro

Yes, there is no place for racism. Race is unimportant. I liked those posts by “curious indian” as well. I am hoping that he will come back in future.

My comment was a comment in defence, not because I believe in racism.
There are extremists everywhere - in south, in bengal, in north - and they express their desire to get separated, but they are just deluded and of course a small minority. India is India, and it’s not defined by just this one group or that group. India may have its problems, but is still one of the sweetest places.

And we have to be very careful. I mean, how many Indian states were there even 15 years ago? How many are there now? Why do the number of states keep increasing? It’s because we keep falling into this trap of regionalism. The good thing is that at least as a country India has managed to keep itself intact, except may be for those nasty attacks on Kashmir from outside.

Many countries in the past have been deliberately broken into pieces from inside out by nasty external political forces. And unless we remain careful and united, the same might happen to us.


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Posted by 12 on Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:14 | #

Look at these 2 links, especially the first one. The top countries are all very rich. Could it be just a coincidence? India is far better in both. Free market economy requires freedom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index


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Posted by som on Sat, 30 Jun 2012 16:08 | #

I have read the things posted above and have come to the following conclusions that old racism has taken a biased turn in the evaluation of racial IQs.

Let me tell you of some basic incidences that will show the hypocrisy.

1. Jews are considered people with highest IQ. But Germans had always placed them to be racially inferior of lower mental ability. Russians were termed “untermensch” these findings were supported by the contemporary academic circles in Europe and all of a sudden after the world war 2, when these countries/communities collaborated with the allies, their mental ability was restored and respected.

2. Romans, Druids, Celts, Greeks could not find a way out of the “big number problem”  still the cumbersome roman numerical notation exists. You may find the “high IQ of Romans” in addressing a way round the problem, it was not until the Indians who devised the scale of notation and thus formulating the decimal system, which actually solved the problem.

3. Indeterminate equations, Permutations, diophantine problems were solved by the Indians but today you do not find the due credits given to them.

4. Kerala school of mathematics and astronomy formulated the sine and cosine series, Gregory-Madhava series, they instituted first real analysis but are not given any credit.

5. Panini structured Sanskrit grammar that can be called the first structured language, 2000 years ago. You find Panini-Backus forms today which west could understand and appreciate and make similar forms only in the early 20th century.

6. Boolean algebra involving true and false was central to the logic and argument of Buddhist philosophy, which is an Indian philosophy.

7. Indian logic school the “Nyaya” is the world’s first analytical philosophy and epistemology. Navya-Nyaya contained the concepts of set theory and Russel’s paradox, still many do not know it or discredit it.

8. S.N. Bose was the first to describe the flaw in Maxwell-Boltzman statistics and showed that entirely new statistics is required to solve the photon gas problem. His distribution formula successfully reproduced the Planck’s formula and thus he pioneered the branch of Quantum-Statistics. Today known as Bose-Einstein statistics. He was never awarded the Nobel prize in physics. Although, several Nobel prizes were awarded in later works involving the BE condensate, superfluidity, superconductivity, W Bosons.

9. M. N. Saha’s discovery about the thermal ionization is considered 12th greatest discovery in astrophysics. Still, he missed out the Nobel prize.

10.  J.C. Bose’s contribution to Radio is accepted by IEEE as fundamental and pioneering above all he is undisputed pioneer in the use of the first semiconductor device in electronics (as crystal detector) that had later revolutionized the world. No standard texts even mentions his name although this has been historically confirmed. Needless to say no Nobel prizes were given to him.

11. George Sudarshan independently of Glauber formulated the the Glauber–Sudarshan P representation in quantum optics, a path breaking discovery, while Glauber was awarded with the Nobel prize; Sudarshan was deprived. Why? Only because he was an Indian?

12. Salam, Khorana, Raman, Venky, Amartya Sen although were credited for their works , but they have made some of the greatest contributions to their respective fields. They are Indians in origin.

13. Indologists from time to time hav