Posted by dchamil on Sat, 07 Oct 2006 13:33 | #

Quite so, Georgia (Gruzia) is discovering that independence is not all peaches and cream, entailing as it does the duty of accepting deportees. There is also the matter of defence of the nation, something which can be burdensome for small countries.

Posted by Kate the Saxon on Sat, 07 Oct 2006 13:47 | #

Good on Pootie-poot.

Yep. Georgia’s on her way to independence.
Great stuff being a grown-up country.
Cover your own arse, you Gruzians.

How is Georgia going to manage its economy without all those lovely Russian roubles being sent “home” to this Indepent Homeland.

And all those Georgians sent Home from Russia…
Will they claim to be Refugees or Returnees?
Are there Council Houses for them?
Unemployment benefits?

Oooo. Goodness.
Kisses for this one: xxx

Posted by John Thomas on Sat, 07 Oct 2006 14:56 | #

The point is that the Georgian political class is ‘trying to be clever’ by exploiting is geogaphic position in being an American client-state.
Georgia is an impoverished dung-heap, and having nothing else to exploit rejoices in the role of ‘playing the harlot’ to America for their ‘thirty pieces of silver.Of course America will dump them, just like they dump everyone else when their usefullness expires

Posted by Matra on Sat, 07 Oct 2006 16:35 | #

I’m going to guess this has more to do with the recent escalation of political tensions between Russia and Georgia than a desire by Putin to crack down on illegals.

Posted by James Bowery on Sat, 07 Oct 2006 19:46 | #

Karl Magnus is typical of the thinking of those against self-determination. 

Their ‘thinking’ is:

“If a ‘capitalist democracy’ like the US destroys it middle class, it isn’t because the leadership is so stupid that it can’tt conceive of its own enlightened self-interest—its because <insert random rationalization>... and a regime that acts intelligently by building a middle class is merely being self-interested!”

Bottom line Putin is calling the Georgian bluff and supremacists worldwide of whatever stripe can’t deal with it except to make the incredible claim that Putin’s functional and formal secession of territory is a secret strategy to take over the territory being seceded.

Posted by Daedalus on Sat, 07 Oct 2006 19:58 | #

Ask karlmagnus about “brown Tories.”

Posted by Roald on Sun, 08 Oct 2006 03:09 | #

This is slightly OT though I noticed this issue has come up here on MR before—F*** American Renaissance.  F*** them!  I can’t write a damn thing on that piece of crap site (and I never use profanity there, I’m just venting here in anger) without it being censored for inexplicable reasons by Jared “Uncle Joe” Taylor and his asinine, arrogant little PRICK moderating staffs.  No profanity, no spam, not even very controversial comments—I’m an engineer with a fondness for boring things like critical analysis—just little on-topic two-three sentence responses to important issues for Western civilization.

The message is, either you follow the AmRen partly line strictly to the letter (and Lord knows if anybody can figure out what it is), or your voice is silenced on issues pertaining to the common future of our people, the most important issue before us.  What a cowardly little bunch of pinpricks over at Amren.

Even if AmRen weren’t a WN site, they’ve frankly committed the most cardinal sin of any small media operating on the Web, which is outright censorship of productive discussion to produce an artificial “consensus” more to their liking.  They’re full of s**t.  We’d do the movement a gigantic favor by ignoring that piece of crap site entirely.

Posted by Count Dooku on Sun, 08 Oct 2006 04:15 | #

Amren posting is not really conducive to intelligent conversation even if it wasn’t censored for unfathomable reasons. Perhaps someone should set up a forum board at that level where amreners can discuss the stories and post comments instantly and without the “censor”.

Posted by wjg on Sun, 08 Oct 2006 08:13 | #

Roald,

Join the crowd.  Amren has become a jew-worshipping joke and that’s why it’s a mile wide and an inch deep.  Another rat hole for white anger.

Posted by john on Sun, 08 Oct 2006 11:20 | #

Some of the comments here are useful in understanding why white americans are such losers when it comes to organising themselves into effective groups. Being negative about something as positive as Amren is stupid.

Posted by Jethro Kull on Sun, 08 Oct 2006 22:36 | #

“Something as positive as AmRen”?  You are joking, right, John?  As in ha ha, you’re not serious about this incredibly idiotic thing you just said? 

You *do* realize that Roald’s objection is to specific *behavior* by the operators of AmRen, don’t you?  Behavior that all of us should unequivocally, loudly and harshly condemn?  Maybe AmRen has some value as a site, and without the censorship they would indeed be a valuable contribution to the movement.  But whatever value they have is undermined thoroughly by their unconscionable, reprehensible practice of censoring their contributions to give a false picture of the views of thoughtful White nationalists.  There are things we all agree need to be kept out (like spam and shouting in all caps), but when it comes to thoughtful and substantive commentary, you just don’t censor that—that’s what this whole Bill of Rights, First Amendment thing was about.  You *don’t* censor, period, I agree that’s one of the few all-but-universal no-nos of a US-based forum, especially on the Web.  Not even the whackiest left-wing pro-immigration sites censor like that. 

You need to take some civics lessons and study a little more about what makes White civilization so strong if you’re going to so easily condone AmRen’s behavior.  This is not something I’ve had to worry much about myself, but I’ve met plenty of other WN’s (who generally don’t even write about “taboo” topics such as Jewish issues on the AmRen comments site) who are furious about the way AmRen has censored brief, thoughtful contributions that they put some effort into putting together, instead allowing the posts of a small number of “favored” contributors. 

I don’t care a turd if AmRen claims to be on our side, if they’re effectively and deliberately skewing the discussion by blotting out thoughtful and pertinent comments they don’t like—thereby creating a discussion thread that misrepresents the actual beliefs of the WN community—then their site is bullshit, and nothing more.  Furthermore, by indulging in Soviet-style censorship practices, they are violating one of the most fundamental tenets of Western civilization and one of the most sacred principles of White culture, which is the importance of free speech and open discussion, as enshrined in our most fundamental documents and principles.  If AmRen is so insecure that it can’t tolerate even slight, thoughtful deviations from whatever its party line is, then that site deserves to be ignored and to go down.  There is no place in the WN movement for such reprehensible and unacceptable behavior.

Posted by James Bowery on Sun, 08 Oct 2006 23:04 | #

Not even the whackiest left-wing pro-immigration sites censor like that. 

GNXP is may be the exception that proves the rule.

Posted by Guessedworker on Sun, 08 Oct 2006 23:41 | #

I’ve just ripped off a bannable (but entirely sincere and true) comment on this short BNP thread at Amren.  In retrospect, it might be too unsubtle.  Still I shall observe its fate:-

I might be way ahead of the trend, but I’m beginning to tire a little of the concentration on Mulsims and I suspect that others will, too.  It can certainly be overdone because Muslims, voluble and difficult thought they may be, are only 3% of the population of Britain.  If the BNP exists, basically, just to attack that small segment, I think questions will come to be asked about the rest.

In any case, Muslims are not necessarily the greatest threat to our national integrity.  Blacks screw anything that moves, basically, and of the 893,000 half-castes (correctly) included for the first time as non-white in the 2001 British population census, the majority will certainly have been mullato.  Does the BNP protest.  Nope, not a word.

No lesser threat, though no doubt a near-impossible target politically, are the Jewish human rights artistes, MSM opinion formers, mainstream political party funders and so on, without whose tireless achievements my country might be free.  Not that you would ever know there was such a thing as Jewish ethnic interests if you listened to BNP.

Right now, the concentration on Moslems is working for them.  But it isn’t entirely honest, and that lack of honesty will eventually be found out.

Posted by john on Sun, 08 Oct 2006 23:51 | #

I guess you don’t like Amren then.  I think maybe the time has passed for all that moral outrage etc. against other whites.

Posted by john on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 00:01 | #

Variable strategies is I think what Kmac calls it. Linder publishes a paper with a specific agenda, Amren another, shop around.

Posted by Andy on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 00:24 | #

Not even the whackiest left-wing pro-immigration sites censor like that.

  Then it must be because their comments are completely unmoderated. The typical leftist attitude towards the opposition is “If it moves, censor it.”

Here’s a typically enlightened leftist response to immigration restrictionists at Columbia University.

  http://tinyurl.com/lmlvx

Posted by Boris on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 01:51 | #

I believe Putin is trying to build a middle-class. He might not be too inclined to make a millionaires class(other than to favored cronies) and most Russians can leave with that.
The karlmagnus mentallity that Russia is trying to terrorize the West is only one side of the coin, the Russians can claim the same from the West. Quite frankly, with so many other alien terrorizers(China, N. Korea, India, Pakistan, Israel, Iran) the Russians truly look like tame neighbors.
But hey, lets punish the Russians and favor the Chinese, what swill…..............

Posted by Boris on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 02:25 | #

Karlmagnus
It would be interesting to conduct a poll in Russia(especially right now, when finincially things seem to be going good for the country) to find out if Russians would prefers an all out capitalist/welfare system or their current socialist/welfare system.
I believe I know the answer, but would still like to find out.
In closing, Russia is now more open and capitalistic than China, yet it’s China that receives the ‘capitalists’ accolades, not that near slave labor has anything to do with it. Or that China dishonestly manipulates this ‘partnership’ of ours by regulating their ‘currency’ to match their interests. Lets give ‘em a pat on the back.
I fail to comprehend how a country that can’t make anything worth a dam can be so rich. I personally try and buy as little chinese as possible even returning merchandise upon finding out where it truly comes from. Nowadays that’s a mission, but my Italian wine corkscrew opener is still with me for ten years, whilst the Chinese one broke in less than two months(and I’m not a heavy wine drinker) I could name every single product of theirs that’s junk but you already know it. BTW the best china IS NOT made in China, but you guessed it, Europe somewhere(Germany, Britain)
Apparently I’m a shot in the dark for America can’t seem to get enough Chinese.

Posted by Al Ross on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 02:31 | #

Wal-Mart alone is China’s fifth largest export destination. Perhaps the long-range thinkers in the US are pinning their hopes on the belief that China wouldnt actually nuke its best customer.

Posted by James Bowery on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 04:19 | #

Perhaps the long-range thinkers in the US are pinning their hopes on the belief that China wouldnt actually nuke its best customer.

Ah, but what happens when that customer’s credit runs out and there are billions of other customers?

Posted by wjg on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 04:20 | #

John,

What proves we are “losers” is when we continue to grovel at the feet of the Establishment and sacrifice our own in the hope that we may gain the respectability we seem to crave above life itself.

Before Jared Taylor’s recent epiphany seeing the wisdom of not defying our masters, AmRen held some hope of being a leader in a real slave revolt.  Now it shows again how Whites are hopelessly inept politically.  We can be bought off cheaper than Judas.

Posted by wjg on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 04:26 | #

GW,

Commissar Jobling has clearly failed in his duties by allowing that post thru.  His failures are very rare however.  I’ve said less that didn’t make it past his hawkish glance.

Posted by Jethro Kull on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 04:49 | #

John,

I support AmRen in supplying a forum to discuss especially timely issues for us.  I haven’t been on the site much, but I like the way that they actually put up recent fresh headlines with very germane material for people to discuss.  And obviously, any such site has to stay on guard for spam, trolls (especially the all-caps shouters), and people who post 100 times with a fixation on, say, Sherman and the Civil War (I’ve seen it before).

The problem I have with AmRen is that, based on my friends’ posts that have been spiked, AmRen very clearly crosses the line from guarding against spam and trolls, to outright censorship of reasoned, rational, thoughtful and concise debate among participants.  Jewish issues are one concern that’s been raised here on MR, but even posts that have nothing to do with this (and neither I nor most of my WN friends post much of anything on this issue) are censored for who knows what reason, despite being brief, reasoned and very much on-topic (and not just redundancies of something posted before). 

If I had to guess, the issue that seems to upset the fragile little psyche of the AR moderators is the portrayal of the US as a modern imperialistic state (with the UK, Australia and even Canada to a lesser extent suicidally writing on the coattails of the US).  That’s the closest I can come to a common thread drawing together the censored posts that I hear about—the American Renaissance people don’t want to hear about it, and I’m guessing it may well be because some of them, perhaps, are financially profiting from this US Empire.  Maybe a couple are participants in the US military-industrial complex themselves.  Maybe a couple run outsourcing businesses.  Maybe a couple are getting filthy rich from their investments in hedge funds in India, I can’t figure it out, but these posts seem to get spiked over and over. 

Indeed, while AR rails on and on about those evil Mexican illegal immigrants, there’s rarely much discussion about 1. the much greater danger of the unsustainably high levels of US *legal* immigration and 2. the even more dangerous economic and social effects of importing thousands of semi-skilled Indians to push American tech workers to marginalization status and slave wages.  It makes no sense why these posts would get spiked so often, and while assumptions of somebody profiting financially from this same US imperialistic mindset that’s ruining this country are mere speculation, it’s certainly not unreasonable.

A pal of mine posted a while back on the destruction of the US job market and technical capacity being wrought by the quasi-imperialistic practice of US outsourcing to India in particular.  (Another, in a similar vein, spoke of the intolerable results of the US H-1 visa program bringing in Indians who save money by staying a dozen to an apartment, living in filthy and squalid conditions, while refusing to bathe—both undercutting salaries for everyone else and literally driving everyone else out of the office due to the stench!)  Another said something about how US imperialism basically involves a fusion of left-wing Third World immigration fanatics with the “WSJ conservatives” requiring cheap supposedly high-skilled labor, selling out the White working, middle and technical classes.  Again, it was spiked.  There was a brief post about the US military-industrial complex and how it requires an ever-fresh supply of White cannon fodder, and wondering why US Whites would sacrifice themselves in imperial wars for a regime working for policies (affirmative action, framing innocent Whites like the Duke lacrosse case defendants) that are so clearly leading to our ruin.  Spiked.  Another, talking about better opportunities for US tech workers (who are fortunate enough to maybe know a little German or Italian) to work in Europe rather than contribute their efforts to US companies that see them as expendable, and to the US government that uses their own tax dollars against them.  Once again, this was too hot to publish.  Roald’s an engineer, so I’m guessing he maybe said something about perhaps outsourcing or US imperialism that the AR moderators couldn’t tolerate.

This is not only censorship, it’s the worst kind of censorship—it’s the deliberate silencing of voices drawing attention to a crucial aspect of the imperialistic idiocy that’s destroying the US and the Anglosphere in general from within.  Perhaps that’s because somebody there has a direct vested interest in this imperalistic stupidity and the offshoring and visa programs that go along with it, although that’s not an accusation I’d make without knowing more.  It could just be that one of the moderators has an ideological stick up his ass and refuses to hear inconvenient but essential truths about US imperialistic behavior, outsourcing, the military-industrial complex and their dreadful consequences.  Maybe they don’t really care about the US White middle and working classes, and White technical workers in particular, who’ve been so badly damaged by recent US government policies—the policies that are ruining our earning power and making it even harder than it already is for Whites to start families. 

Whatever the reason, it reeks of some sort of ideological censorship just like what the Soviets used to practice.  And it’s an unacceptable feature for a site that claims to be a discussion forum for the White Nationalist movement.

Posted by Boris on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 05:20 | #

JB
You’re right. Not only that, their culture is far more allien to US than Russia. I keep pointing out to this Chinese defenders the irony that by doing so much business with China they’re keeping the Russian military complex going. India is small potatoes, as is Iran, but China is a honey hole(though the little cheaters even take in the Russians from time to time, ie: reverse engineering((as Russians once did themselves)) for the Russian military complex. Why?
Well lets just say that whilst they can make the airplanes frame, they cannot the engines. Thus, their latest practise of buying airplane parts. With ships this is different and the whole enchilada must be made in Russia. Need a spacecraft?copy an elder soyuz design, not for two and then three astronauts, but just one, and call it a vistory for the motherland.
BTW I buy as little as possible from Wal-Mart, Google, AOL, Home Depot, Miller….......................

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 06:39 | #

“I shall observe its fate”  (—GW, several comments above)

It’s gone.  Vanished.  (I post this at 1:40 AM, U.S. east coast time.)

Posted by John Thomas on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 12:31 | #

That twerp, Ian Jobling, who ‘moderates’ ie censors posts at the American Renaissance web-site is particularly annoying.
One has the feeling that,
1/. He is actually an undercover double-agent.
2/. He gets some petty, pathetic power-trip from purposely deleting well-written, well-argued posts, due to his own personal issues.

Posted by Peter North on Mon, 09 Oct 2006 12:39 | #

Boris,
      You state that the best producs are made in Britain.
As someone who actually lives there, I can state that nothing substantial is made in Britain anymore - except lies and empty bragging.

Posted by Boris on Tue, 10 Oct 2006 00:26 | #

I state that china made in Britain is better than that made in China. Do the Brits still make jet engines? That’s something the chinese are incapable of. My point overall is one of bashing China not necesarilly praise Britain.

Posted by John Thomas on Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:16 | #

If you read Ian Jobling’s potted biography at the AMren main web-site, you will find that Jobling was raised in a trendy-lefty, touchy-feely ‘christian’ background, his parents were academics deeply interested in south American ‘liberation theology’.
Jobling only came to white nationalism late in life, the catalyst was him taking a teaching job in Buffalo NY, and regularly getting stomped by big, aggressive blacks, the nerdy, bespectacled academic was beaten within an inch of his life by the big butch brothas.
This inclines me believe that his motivation in the WN movement is principally inspired by revenge and the suppressed need to re-assert his crushed masculinity than by any deeper considerations of race differences, hence we can understand Jobling ‘geeting his jollies’ and feeling ‘superior’ by censoring postings.

Posted by James Bowery on Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:40 | #

High traffic isn’t as important as high quality.  The two can conceivably go together but it would not be a good idea to sacrifice quality for volume.  The sacrifice of JJR for example reduced posting traffic here.  Some consider that bad.  I consider it good, nay very good.  The signal to noise ratio of his articles were deteriorating as he degenerated into the same sort of “Nya Nya, I’m with the mainstream position and you aren’t so I don’t have to answer your arguments but I can taunt you and all you can do is waste your time answering in good faith.” garbage he routinely gets out of “leftists” and has no problem complaining about when it happens to him.

Something about signal to noise ratio it is important to recognize:

In a high noise environment, simply adding signal is the most optimal move.

In a low noise environment suppressing noise can be the most optimal move.

This has to do with the partial derivatives of the ratio with respect to signal vs noise.

In MR’s good old days—before JJR drove away some of the better bloggers—it had a relatively high signal to noise ratio.

Posted by Count Dooku on Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:36 | #

“In terms of marketing positions, is there a high-traffic site that falls between Amren and Stormfront or VNN?”

This site is between Amren and SF. It started up only a few months ago and unfortunately doesn’t have many comments which is what usually interests me the most. Scrooby posts on it.

http://forum.occidentaldissent.com/index.php

What is actually needed is a board at the Vdare level which links to a board at the Amren level which links to a board at a level between Amren and SF. Anyone at the SF level is already on board (overboard?)

Having the same message expressed in different ways is useful as some people will only be receptive to a message being said a certain way. I myself got interested by first reading Mark Steyn talking about European demographic collapse and the muslim invasion then checking out LGF, then Vdare, then Amren and now a whole bunch of sites.

Someone else posted a similar experience on Little Geneva

http://littlegeneva.com/?p=478#comments

Harry,

During my transition to reality and White Nationalism I went thru a brief stage of “Islam is our greatest enemy” as presented by Little Green Footballs, Jihad Watch, Front Page, et al. People who stop their search there either have decided to look no further (due to mental exhaustion or limited capacity) or see who is behind the curtain and understand the cost of pulling it back.

There should be a site at the Vdare level and people identified as getting too extreme for that site are promoted to an Amren level site and when they get too extreme they get promoted to something else.

Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:08 | #

CD,

This is the path from truth to consciousness that I intimated in my post on a new political compass.  As stepping stones along the way we need scores of strong sites concentrating, I believe, on quality mixed in with some - but not too much - populist content.

In essence, we have to:_

1) (fairly obviously) create intellectual momentum, and
2) teach moral integrity,

... because those readers who may lack the intellectual cutting edge must be encouraged to feel that the saving of the West is a matter of personal honour for all of us.  Comportment among intellectuals is rarely a problem.  Among non-intellectuals it can be, and clumsy mistakes are gift to the Establishment.

Posted by Daedalus on Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:39 | #

I have never bothered to post at Amren because of the time delay moderation there.

Posted by Count Dooku on Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:02 | #

Actually Daedalus, isn’t

http://forum.occidentaldissent.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7

your project?

and Rusty Mason, don’t you have your own webpage at Rustymason.com?

I thought one of you guys linked to

http://www.separatism.org/

which I think is the way to go (but not going to happen in the States until that country is ready to fall apart) in which case best to be prepared by living in an all white area so you aren’t caught like Reginald Denny in downtown LA when the shtf.

There was a discussion board dedicated to http://www.separatism.org and now I can’t find the damn thing.

Posted by James Bowery on Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:04 | #

Boris, don’t under-estimate the Asian ability to reverse-engineer.  Moreover, they have more than enough folks from which to draw to come up with significant advances.  What they lack is a culture valuing individualism which is how the West used to cultivate its creators—back before a technocrat class crept up on the creators to themselves create an environment of creative rip-off.  It is this latter phenomenon that is the proximal cause of the West’s slow decline.

China managed to pull off an amazing feat by reserving a substantial portion of its territory for a free-enterprize zone.  To use a Kevin MacDonaldism—they are flexible strategizers.  It remains to be seen whether this creativity can be made sustainable within the history of China’s bureaucratic largesse.  I doubt it.

Posted by Daedalus on Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:48 | #

Yes. It’s the companion forum to The Civic Platform. We’re going to move it over to that URL one of these days.

Posted by rustymason on Wed, 11 Oct 2006 02:48 | #

Yep.  I’ve gotten absorbed in the Latin and Greek parts of my site just now, the political stuff was driving me to drink.

Check this out, I’m translating Livy’s History of Rome back into the original Latin, using the substituion method:
http://www.rustymason.com/edu/lang/latin/trans_latin_livy_book01.html

Posted by Al Ross on Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:55 | #

It is interesting that Classicist academics like RP Oliver and Enoch Powell long appreciated the immigration-borne genetic factor in the demise of the ancient world’s empires and consistently warned us of this sine qua non of Aryan decline.

Posted by Boris on Wed, 11 Oct 2006 04:03 | #

James Bowery, thanks for the heads up. I don’t under-estimate the Chinese, but quite childish I do not like them, though they’re not number one on that list. I’ve a bit of experience myself with communist countries, and I can assure you the Chinese model will never get too far. The’ll always be second echelon to the Russians or Americans, perhaps even Japanese. Indeed to this day, even though Japan is not a nuclear nation, if given proper time they could by themselves(with our help) take care of the Chinese. With total backing from Moscow I suspect even the Mongols could do same, but that’s stretching it a bit I concede.

Posted by Al Ross on Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:00 | #

Ever since China decided to import the Western Industrial Capitalist system it has raised more people out of poverty in a shorter time than anyone thought possible. Communist is already just an empty epithet although its system wont be replaced by US-style liberal democracy despite the fond hopes of American Jews and their dupes.

Instead, long-term, there may be a return to the Confucian ethos and we can glimpse an example of this style of governance by observing the impressive success of Singapore.