Posted by Fred Scrooby on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:12 | #

“you cannot change that the Holocaust has been proven”  (—quoted in the log entry)

If it’s been proven you don’t have to jail doubters, just refer to the proofs.  These arrests, trials, and jailings strongly imply there was no Holocaust.  That’s the strong implication, obvious without reading a single word of the “revisionist” literature:  you don’t have to read any of it.  To grasp the situation, namely that they can’t back up their assertions, it’s enough to see what they’re doing to the deniers:  that leaves no doubt whatsoever. 

Two questions:  We’re not geniuses at this site but ordinary folk (well ... some here are pretty smart but by and large we’re average guys):  everything we see — and that means everything without exception — is seen with crystal clarity by tons of very intelligent people, people way more intelligent than most of us here (people who include the real geniuses, who are of course always out there) yet they’re keeping silent.  Why?  That’s one question.  The other is, Why do Jews push punishment of Holocaust denial knowing, as they must — Jews aren’t dumb — that it’s a sure way to strengthen what they’re trying to stamp out?  Why stab themselves in the back in this way?  Is it some sort of act of desperation?

Posted by Melba Peachtoast on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:22 | #

Why would a wallaby chew his belly open and tear out his own entrails? Well, it wouldn’t actually, but if wallies did do that, it might be analogous. To something, anyway.

Posted by James Bowery on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:13 | #

The only thing that is relevant is that they don’t allow freedom of association.  If a bunch of religious zealots want to go off to some piece of land somewhere and exclude everyone who questions their most cherished beliefs about themselves, it is perfectly acceptable.

If, on the other hand they say that others can’t exclude them then they have lost their right to life as a consequence and are to be treated as pathogenic parasites rampaging through barriers to infect all who might not yet have had the life sucked from them.

It is clear which group the Holocaustians are, regardless of any “proof” of their thesis regarding exterminationsim.

Posted by ES on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:29 | #

The other is, Why do Jews push punishment of Holocaust denial knowing, as they must — Jews aren’t dumb — that it’s a sure way to strengthen what they’re trying to stamp out?  Why stab themselves in the back in this way?  Is it some sort of act of desperation?

But punishment does work. The holocaust denial law shuts up 80 million Germans. (What’s the alternative—confess the lie? No good, Shlomo, we run with this, damn the torpedoes.) Jews know exactly what they’re doing.

Posted by Desmond Jones on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:30 | #

It’s more than just the Jews. If, as GW suggests, man is infinitely malleable, (although I’d disagree) then a holocaust denial law is utilised by the elites to suppress insurrection.

This quote is interesting,

“It affects the agitator who claims the Jews prey on the German people, that they invented the Holocaust for that purpose, that foreigners should all be thrown out and that the discussion should finally be over with,” Benz said. “He must be punished because he engages in incitement of the masses, because he slanders the memory of those murdered, because he slanders our fellow citizens.”

Clearly Hitler’s rise was an insurrection that ousted the German elites and the Jewish co-elite and that notion weighs heavily on the current German rulers. MacDonald references the relationship between elite Jews and German during the 18th century, and so often the same relationship was found throughout European history; the elite Apollonians, to borrow Slezkine’s term, utilised the Mercurian Jews, to serve their ends. The punishment is not entirely about denial of the Jewish holocaust but the power it may evoke and unleash.

It’s also apparent in legal structures like apartheid. If the English/Boer/Jewish elite of South Africa really cared about the common white in 1948, South Africa would have declared itself a white only state and transfered blacks outside their territory. However, they didn’t because it did not serve their ends.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:52 | #

“The holocaust denial law shuts up 80 million Germans.”  (—ES)

It may shut them up for now, but it also convinces those 80 million Germans along with every thinking person in the world that Holocaust agnosticism, in view of these astoundingly, jaw-droppingly unacceptable arrests and trials bordering on the insane, is the only position possible( * ).  And that guarantees they won’t remain “shut up” for long and neither will anyone else.  What you’re seeing before your eyes here is the beginning of the end of the Holocaust.  These arrests and trials spell the beginning of the end of the viability of the whole Holocaust claim which is going to steadily unravel from here on. 

How could Jews pushing this behind the scenes not know this?  They must know it.  Their support for it can only, therefore, be an act of desperation:  they must see no alternative and must be preparing in their minds a “Plan-B” for when the Holocaust edifice comes crashing down.

What the Jews are doing in pushing these trials( ** ) is an act of desperation but not just that.  It’s also a result of arrogance, a totalitarian streak in their character, and a collection of blind spots in their brains that keep them from having a sense of how average ordinary Euros think and feel:  they read ordinary average Euros wrong.

The whole thing is a very, very bad situation.  What I would love would be for Jews and Euros to simply communicate better with one another but obviously that’s not going to happen. 

Until this lastest round of arrests I never had a doubt in the world about the standard version of the Holocaust (except I knew that most serious authorities believed the number was somewhat less than “six million,” the serious claims varying between a million or so less than six million, and a little more than half of six million).  This latest series of arrests are what made me read the revisionist claims for the first time in my life.  To anyone who hasn’t delved into them, they’re quite solid and have to be answered with answers, not arrests, trials, and prison.  That they’re answered with arrests, trials, and prison can only mean they can’t be answered with answers.  Where does that leave the rest of us?  As Holocaust agnostics, obviously:  we’re not blind.   
______

( *  Which amounts to Holocaust denial, since agnosticism says “I see no conclusive evidence of it.  I’ll believe it when I see some.”  In other words, “As of right now, I don’t believe it.”)

( **  Jews clearly aren’t the only ones pushing them and probably aren’t the principle ones pushing them, those likely being the reigning Euro liberal “anti-fascist” establishment types who see the “Holocaust, Standard-Version” as one essential keystone to their maintaining themselves in power and who feel they cannot permit cracks opening up in the “H S-V” since that would imperil their political hold on things — thus their hysteria in regard to the “H S-V” doubters.)

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:17 | #

“It’s more than just the Jews.  If, as GW suggests, man is infinitely malleable (although I’d disagree), then a holocaust denial law is utilised by the elites to suppress insurrection. [...] Clearly Hitler’s rise was an insurrection that ousted the German elites and the Jewish co-elite and that notion weighs heavily on the current German rulers.”  (—Desmond)

I had posted my last comment before seeing the one by Desmond.  I agree with what he says.  One facet he leaves out, however, is the German élites of Weimar and of today’s FR"G” (the Federal Republic of “Germany,” Germany in quotes because it’s not the real Germany but a puppet state orbiting around Washington, D.C.) weren’t authentically German or pursuing authentic German interests but were sort of working for alien interests — certainly the ones of today are fairly characterized in that way.  Therefore what ousted/threatens-to-oust them was/is more authentic than they were/are and they deserved/deserve to be ousted.  Weimar and the FR"G” are collaborationist élites/governments collaborating with the conqueror/occupier against the genuine national interests. 

“It’s also apparent in legal structures like apartheid. If the English/Boer/Jewish elite of South Africa really cared about the common white in 1948, South Africa would have declared itself a white only state and transfered blacks outside their territory. However, they didn’t because it did not serve their ends.”  (—Desmond)

Right, one mistake was bringing in huge volumes of Bantus of various tribes to work the diamond mines and perform other labor cheaply.  That could have only one result over the long term, the result it ended up having.  You see the élites doing the same now with non-white immigration across the Eurosphere and also, interestingly enough, in the state of Israel’s maintenance of a Palestinian-Arab workforce nearby at all times to serve labor needs.  There are many ways in which Israel could have made itself a purely Jewish country since 1948 but — apparently for economic/cheap-labor reasons — it hasn’t wished to.  What it’s doing is maintaining itself as a national-socialist apartheid state with Palestinian Bantustans to serve its cheap labor needs and the inevitable result is — you guessed it:  the world hates Israel because it’s a national-socialist state maintaining Palestinian Bantustans to exploit as cheap labor.  That policy will do Israel no more good over the long run than it did for South Africa or than it will do for the United States or elsewhere in the Eurosphere.  Big, big, big mistake.

Posted by Joel Godfrey on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:36 | #

This is horrible.  This man has the back bone of a thosand elefants and he is imprissoned for having an unpopular opinion, this has serious implications for all of us whom chose to be informed and think for ourselves about what life has offered us all.  Some people are saying this shows the end of it, the high point of holocaust seeing its twighlite but to me it doesn’t seem that way at all. 
Look at our population, look at our cities, look at all of our women and how the vast majority of them constantly feel sorry for other ethnic groups and how many of them date blacks, Mexicans and whom ever they can because of their lack of connection with white society, or should I say non-Jewish Anglo society, are these whites and non-whites going to march the horrendously intolerant Jewish nationalists off a cliff when they want to live and think like them? 
To me this might open some eyes but not many, most will stay quite and most wont even know, who knows anything about Irving or Zundel in America, outside of these blog sites and very small circles of white patriot groups not many people know about much at all.  This is a sign of their desperation to hide facts but it is also a sign of escalation.  We will be seeing more and more people here and in Europe thrown in jail for thinking like non-Jews and they will all be decent white people with out a clue of why their in jail, they will be beaten and more and more black on white rapes in prison will completely nullify their minds of all their meaningful worth.  This to me is a new more evil path against our people and I see it doing nothing but worsening our situation in America and Europefor nothing less than the next ten or so years.  People, and I really wish it weren’t true, are not willing to take chances, demand pride and confront our governments and that is the only way we will keep our rights from completely being illiminated.  That is probably the only way the holocaust exagerations and total Jewish domination of our countries will ever be illiminated and there is not much time, ten years or so and their will be enough damaged people willing to do it, now however, there’s not a chance in hell.  I really wish I didn’t feel this way but our names are probably all on adl lists and their next presidential campaigns for our countries will swing hard for this silencing for us, we owe it to ourselves to inform even the most ignorant of liberals to be nothing but an ally of free speech, we have to convince them that their rights are being discarded and until they half come to consciousness, prison could soon be waiting for us all.

Posted by Guessedworker on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:51 | #

they have lost their right to life

James, I have been pondering how to reply to your even more forthright comment along these lines on your “Trinkets” thread.  I am quite certain that in international law the principle of self-defence is predicated not on the aggressor’s loss of a right to life but on the defenders right to employ an appropriate response.  This is a very important dictinction because, while a direct attack with the intention of taking life will in extremis justify lethality in response, the defender enjoys no absolute right to such in any circumstance he sees fit.  The justification in law is a narrow one.

It would be extremely improbably that a justification on the basis of a widescale socio-political attack could be established in law.

We are back again debating the meaning of genocide and soft genocide, and the case against all those who are encouraging the demise of European Man.

Posted by James Bowery on Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:10 | #

GW, international law does not recognize the right of people to their own land so it is hard to see how you can use it to justify anything.  What is recognized by international law is the right of a 2/3 majority within fixed territorial boundaries to do anything it wishes with the other 1/3 subject to a laundry list of vague and selectively enforced “human rights”.

Yes, I recognize I’m positing a “new” basis for human rights but it is really as old as agriculture.

Posted by Stanley Womack on Sat, 17 Feb 2007 01:31 | #

Fred Scrooby asks in his first posting above, “Why do Jews push punishment of Holocaust denial knowing, as they must — Jews aren’t dumb — that it’s a sure way to strengthen what they’re trying to stamp out?  Why stab themselves in the back in this way?  Is it some sort of act of desperation?”

Resisting Defamation has an interpretation of this phenomenon and it goes like this. For the first 150 years of the American Republic, roughly between 1790 & 1940, organized Jewish behavior was consistently based on a passive-aggressive psychology. An example is, “How hurtful you are to all minorities when you won’t give us immedidate immigration rights!” In other words, the attack on Europeans and European Americans was couched in the language of pain, sorrow, universal rights, and horror. This approach generated huge victories for organized Jewry.

Since around 1940 for the last 65 years, organized Jewry has forgotten its passive-aggressive basis for power and has moved increasingly into a purely aggressive model of discourse and political rhetoric. The hatred buried in this rhetoric has been brought into the foreground.

Our point is that this will be the undoing of the Jewish Empire that presently reigns in Washington, London, Berlin, Paris, and Ottawa. The arrogance of the Zundel trial is just the capstone on 65 years of open and aggressive warfare on our nations, and we sincerely believe it will expose their methods and techniques to more and more people.

Combined with the excesses of their war on Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, etc., they have shed their protective coloration as victims and now stand forth as conquerors and killers. We saw this side of them, of course, most clearly in the Book of Joshua where the identical course of aggressive action brought about their temporary successes and then their long-term downfall.

Posted by Rnl on Thu, 22 Feb 2007 22:27 | #

Recent Zgram:

This letter was posted on the popular Rense page at http://www.rense.com - and the foreword was written by Jeff Rense.

=====

Letter From Ernst Zundel Written Just Before The Verdict

The following heavily-censored letter was written only ten days before the despicable ‘verdict’ in the kangaroo court ‘rendering’ of Ernst Zundel in Mannheim.  What shame lies upon Germany and its once proud and industrious people and their remarkable history.  Germany is now, as it has been since 1945, fully on its knees, the whipping boy of world zionism, doing the bidding of its masters.  The Human Rights and basic legal outrages of the Zundel trial are the stuff of the darkest days of Bolshevik Russia. Mr. Zundel has already had four YEARS of his life stolen and now faces 5 years in German prison. Here is his letter…

February 5, 2007

My Dear Jeff

Greetings to you from Mannheim Prison…my fifth prison in the last four years. This must be some kind of record for a man not yet convicted of anything.  But that, too, will change soon - for we are in the last days of what passes for a ‘judicial’ proceeding here.

Jeff, NO American could believe - without actually having experienced it - what is going on here.  The unfamiliar or the non-initiated could simply not believe that in an otherwise modern nation, proceedings like these could actually take place.

These events surpass even Kafka’s worst nightmarish scripts.

Still, I am not allowed to discuss the details of the case, and still, my incoming and outgoing mail is tightly censored. And several times already,  letters written by Ingrid to me have been used against me (us?) in the proceedings, as have my own letters, of all things, dealing with Biblical topics…and, get this: KARMA and REINCARNATION.

It is amazing to me to see how far things can go in the nations where there is no tradition of Freedom of Speech like we have in America…and HAD in Canada until the Marxists and their cronies - or should I say ‘useful idiots’ - took over.

Jeff, it is stunning to see how subjugation and repression will manifest and grow like a cancerous tissue if no one steps in to stop such a creeping, terminal affliction.

I consider myself one of the luckiest Germans for having had the foresight to leave this place so early in my life, and to have enjoyed my most vital years in Canada and America, [countries that] were then, when I arrived, fantastic places throbbing with energy, full of assertive self-confidence and moral strength.  There was a refreshing vigor, a can-do and will-do attitude and mood prevalent that was utterly invigorating. I am so glad my children and grandchildren can live there in freedom.

It is an eerie feeling to be living in a in every other respect modern state but with such deeply-ingrained limitations and culture myths or taboos that very, very few dare stray outside the politically-correct intellectual playpens.

For me, the free-roaming who has spent a lifetime expanding my horizon and investigating all manner of things and ideas, [understanding this] is an incredible blessing.  I find, instead, the willingness of these current Germans to live - and think - in carefully proscribed,  blinkered mental prisons to be incomprehensible.

It is interesting to watch German ‘talk shows’ about virtually any topic.  They resemble stiff, repressed, super-cautious, carefully mentally-scripted rituals.  To view them and to have to listen to them, for us who are used to the give-and-take of free, roaming discussions, is almost unbearable at times.

When I try to explain to them that in America one could write about and discuss virtually any topic without the ever-present threat of being arrested, tried, convicted, fined and even imprisoned for just thinking or writing about things other than the orthodox, generally accepted viewpoints, THIS seems unbelievable to most. They respond as if one is feeding them some kind of American propaganda.  Thus, I often feel like a fish out of water.

As you well know, I am no stranger to attempts by powerful, well-organized lobbies to enforce their own norms and versions of history and events on people - so I am not naive when it comes to questions of censorship.  However, it is something totally different from state-imposed, criminally-sanctioned dictates by the state to tell you not to touch on specific topics.

After centuries of experience with repressive monarchs, communists and other regimes and their censors - and the crippling effects they have on society - one should think that the benefits of an unfettered exchange of ideas would seem like an obvious and ideal solution. Unfortunately,  what seem obvious and logical to us who are ‘infected’ with the First Amendment intoxicant, seems positively frightening to every trigger-happy bureaucrat,  village policeman, and ‘do-gooder’ around the corner.

I was just sent the decision by the Northern District Federal Court of San Jose, CA, of November 7, 2001 - the famous Yahoo vs the French Court decision in which private French lobbies had demanded that Yahoo cease and desist from allowing websites on their provider which espouse viewpoints these lobbyists didn’t like, and products they did not want to be offered to the public.

I have never seen the reasoning by the court in this case, No. C-00-21275JF, November 7, 2001.

Jeff, it is one of the FINEST articulations I have seen of just what the First Amendment protects.

Usually, we get the ‘horse and buggy’, motherhood and apple pie explanations, sounding out of touch with the modern electronic age of instant global communications.

This San Jose Court has updated and clarified, as well as made relevant, the vital role this over 200 year old legislation means to today’s Americans, or all those who live in the geographic area where U.S. laws hold sway.

The document was sent to me by Joseph T. McGinnis, Ingrid’s and my [former] attorney in the current litigation in the U.S. against my being denied habeas corpus rights, etc, currently before U.S. courts. The question of official U.S. views and laws pertaining to the internet had been, of course, raised in the proceedings here in Germany by the defence.  I knew the outline, or Gestalt, of the U.S. view - but needed hard evidence to prove that what I claimed was right.

Well, this California court ruling supplied that proof, and my German lawyer used it ‘in whole’ as an official exhibit, filing it with the court on the last day while pleadings had already begun.

The document was declared ‘irrelevant’ (by the judge) but I was more than pleased to strike one more blow for Freedom.  My job was to alert the court to other standards of liberty existing where I lived and worked at the time of arrest (read: kidnapping -ed), incarceration and removal from America without ever having been brought before an American judge.

By the time you get this letter, the verdict may already be in here, but Jeff my case is only one case of many going on in this country. Apparently, there have already been 120,000 similar cases since 1992, virtually all ending in convictions with heavy fines and/or stiff jail terms.

The prosecutor already pleaded for five years in prison, and denying me the two years I served in Guantanamo North in Canada, which would, in effect, mean SEVEN years imprisonment for merely expressing ideas, non-violently, for which the Canadian Supreme Court - where I had lived most of my adult life - had found me Not Guilty.  The Court ruled, in fact, that a minority member in multi-ethnic Canada must have a right to his own viewpoint - even if the majority found it not to their liking - or, even if those views were wrong. August 27, 1992.

In a way, Jeff, this case is comparable to a Chinese emigrant living in Canada or America or Australia bowing to the ONE CHILD per family law in place in Communist China.  Mao’s government adopted that law, as you know, and every Chinese couple is allowed only one child per family.  Should the woman become pregnant a second time ‘accidentally,’ the couple gets hit with a heavy fine.  Should there be any further ‘accidents,’ the wife (or husband) will go to jail and [the wife will] have a state-ordered abortion performed.  In China, this issue is a serious crime which is severely punished.

Now comes the twist:

Chinese families were traditionally large, as in other Asian countries, because children were considered ‘old age insurance’ for the parents.

There are tens of thousands of Chinese - if not millions - who have fled China for other lands in order to practice the Chinese tradition of large families.  There are approximately 35 million Chinese overseas and most of those families have more than one child.

China does not ask the Canadians or Americans to imprison their overseas Chinese for having broken this Communist Chinese law.  I have not heard of one Chinese deported from Canada or the U.S. for having offended that repressive Red Chinese law.

I certainly have never heard of the Communists having made requests to the Canadian or U.S. governments insisting they stop their overseas Chinese - local residents - from exercising their reproductive freedom.  I am also not aware that Chinese returning home to China for a visit with their grandchildren or to visit relatives in China were arrested for breaking this stringent law while living outside of China proper.

But, Jeff, such is the mindset of the blinkered, indoctrinated Europeans who consider themselves enlightened and sophisticated - and that includes virtually anyone I have spoken to - that they cannot or will not see the similarity of the situation.  The situation is, of course, ludicrous!

This is a CENSORED letter from a very sad, schizoid place.  Be glad you are there…and not here.

Keep the flame of Freedom burning.  In spite of Iraq, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo - America is still a good place to be - the last free place.  Keep it so.  It is precious.

Ernst

Posted by Rnl on Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:04 | #

Daily ZGram Mailing List

Zundel Verdict: Five Years in a German Dungeon
by Michael A. Hoffman II | Feb. 15, 2007

“I think that they’ve given a strong message ... to the world, that I believe will bring a tremendous amount of comfort to Holocaust survivors.” - Bernie Farber, chief executive officer, Canadian Jewish Congress.

“The sentencing today of Ernst Zundel also represents a slap in the face to Iranian President Ahmadinejad’s hateful campaign of Holocaust denial that unfortunately has generated too much support in the Arab and Muslim world.” - The Simon Wiesenthal Center.

=====

67-year-old Ernst Zundel’s “crime” is to blaspheme the religion of Holocaustianity’s “execution gas chamber” shrine at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Protestant and Catholic Europeans have a long and ignominious history of burning, tormenting and imprisoning heretics. Zundel is now numbered with Michael Servetus, Edmund Campion and countless other independent thinkers whose ideas could not be contested, so they had to be silenced.

If Mr. Zundel really were a flat-earther, he would be laughed into oblivion. But the fact is, he has been a mentor to some of the elite scientific revisionists in the field, including former Max Planck chemist Germar Rudolf, who is on trial in Germany on similar charges.

The most disgusting aspect of the verdict against Zundel, aside from his incarceration, is the effect it will have on the Muslim world, which is sanctimoniously hectored by the West to permit more freedom of expression and to be less defensive about blasphemy of Muhammad. But the imperial West has deigned to create an exception for its own tutelary idols, about which no blasphemy may be countenanced, on penalty of five years’ imprisonment. The verdict against Zundel represents a resurgence of the Dark Ages and that fact will not be lost on Muslims.

This is not the last word on Ernst! The enemies of freedom have not broken his spirit. He has been on trial intermittently for twenty-seven years. In that time, he has never recanted, compromised, or uttered a single weasel word of accommodation to the Auschwitz flatulence, even though, had he done so, he might have received a lighter sentence or been released entirely.

Mr. Zundel stands today as an example of a man who speaks spiritual truth to overwhelming material power. His ideas cannot be contained by cages and bars. From Venezuela to Iran, a new world - a youthful world - for whom the rotten, old, Skull-and-Bones mesmerism has lost its spell-binding hold, is watching and witnessing.

The verdict against Ernst Zundel is a searing indictment of the post-modernist West. It is a self-administered “slap in the face” not to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, but to every jailer-rabbi and inquisitorial Zionist who applauds it. With each clap of their hands their studied pose as the eternal victims is unmasked, and all that stands before us is the mentality that wrote the book on tyranny, in Babylon, circa 300 A.D.

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Hoffman is the author of The Great Holocaust Trial, an account of Zundel’s courtroom ordeal in Toronto in 1985.

http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/