Genetic structure and Outbreeding Depression Quoting INBREEDING DEPRESSION AND OUTBREEDING DEPRESSION by Michael Lynch Outbreeding depressionThis phenomenon can occur in two ways. One way is by the "swamping" of locally adapted genes in a wild population by straying from, for example, a hatchery population. In this case, adaptive gene complexes in wild populations are simply being displaced by the immigration of genes that are adapted to the hatchery environment or to some other locality. For example, selection in one population might produce a large body size, whereas in another population small body size might be more advantageous. Gene flow between these populations may lead to individuals with intermediate body sizes, which may not be adaptive in either population. A second way outbreeding depression can occur is by the breakdown of biochemical or physiological compatibilities between genes in the different populations. Within local, isolated populations, alleles are selected for their positive, overall effects on the local genetic background. Due to nonadditive gene action, the same genes may have rather different average effects in different genetic backgrounds—hence, the potential evolution of locally coadapted gene complexes. Offspring between parents from two different populations may have phenotypes that are not good for any environment. It is important to keep in mind that these two mechanisms of outbreeding depression can be operating at the same time. However, determining which mechanism is more important in a particular population is very difficult. In other words, genetic structure, aka, genetic correlation structure is more than additional ethnic genetic interest—it can be function, hence loss of that structure results in loss of function resulting in outbreeding depression. Of course, the answer from vectorists that insist on imposing panmixia on populations with high rates of recessive genes is that inbreeding depression is more of a danger and that outbreeding enhancement swamps the effects from outbreeding depression. Their evidence? Well they don’t really need any since they have the government force on their side—so they needn’t pay attention to this additional paraphraph:
They just know that inbreeding is more of a problem than outbreeding—and that’s why they’re “justified” in imposing outbreeding on populations with government force and technologically amplified panmixia. Comments:2
Posted by Pi on Thu, 29 Mar 2007 20:26 | # I think the problem would be more pronounced when you cross mongrels. If you’re a mongrel and want to minimize (but not eliminate) this problem for your progeny then you should backcross into one, or the other of your pure blood parental lines. In this way you will always have a full set of pure blood genes of one of the pure lines. Never cross with another mongrel or you’re really tempting fate. -Pi 3
Posted by James Bowery on Thu, 29 Mar 2007 21:39 | # Well actually, the way new breeds are created by breeders is to first hybridize and then intensively inbreed the hybrids and kill the “junk” resulting from the inbred hybrids. The “junk” is defined in terms of those offspring not exhibiting the desired characteristics of the parent breeds. This can take multiple generations of intensive inbreeding to weed out the “junk”. Of course, NONE and I mean NONE of the proponents of human heterosis would tolerate this realistic approach to creating new breeds from hybridization. Nor will they tolerate the other realistic approach to heterosis which is the “backcross” (usually rotating between at least 3 different pure breeds) from pure breeds you mention—during which you MUST maintain your best of pure breed breed females as a best of pure breed line. Nor, in the unlikely event that they allowed that, would they allow the restriction that farmers use which is to keep the hybrid breeders ALL FEMALE and send the hybrid males NONBREEDING, ie: destined for market. (I’m not counting terminal cross systems here since those lineages always terminate.) This is because they don’t really promote the advantages of hybridization for humanity—they merely want to fuck our women with the protection of our governments and aid of our transportation and habitation technologies. 4
Posted by anon on Mon, 02 Apr 2007 07:22 | # Fred, 5
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:55 | # I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Dienekes favors “Out of Africa” over “Multiregionalism”: he seems to tout the former at every opportunity. (Why “Out of Africa” would serve his general pro-Greek bias better than “Multiregional” I don’t quite get, though one could speculate.) Unfortunately, the new paper in question lacks merit. 6
Posted by Der Dienekes on Sat, 21 Jul 2007 11:30 | # Yeah, Fred, but note what Hawks says about environmental selection influences on skull variability (not to mention of course sexual selection for phenotypic features). About Dienekes: it has long been apparent that his blog has a political subtext (although much attenuated in recent years). Nothing wrong with that - as long as you are honest about it. It’s left open to the long time reader of Dienekes’ site as to whether he’s been upfront about the biases that inform his commentaries about, for example, out of Africa, IQ and race, and Salter’s work. 7
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:18 | #
Yeah I saw that. He says it’s between 25% and 75% environmental. That’s OK: he allows us the choice so I’ll choose 25%. (Hey it’s better than Franz Boas who claimed it was 100% environmental.) Look, I have no illusions about Hawks: he definitely slants left, and it goes without saying he dwells in a universe in which the notion of race essentially does not exist — or at least any mention of it whatsoever is painstakingly avoided. That doesn’t detract from the value of perusing his site from time to time. He’s no C. Boring Disgrace, that’s for sure.
Dienekes doesn’t accept inheritance of IQ: he thinks it’s all environmental and disregards the twin studies. He’s jaw-droppingly wrong about that, of course: to reject those studies you have to fundamentally misunderstand statistics, which he certainly uses in other regards and understands, so it’s a mystery. He also, unless I’m mistaken, doesn’t accept inheritance of Greekness: he thinks Turks can be as Greek as Greeks if they adopt the culture and language sufficiently. I assume this is because he himself is part Turkish (as everyone knows, he’s of Pontic-Greek/Greek-Orthodox family background) and sees this exclusively cultural interpretation of Greekness as the way to consider himself as Greek as any Greek who isn’t part Turkish. This may be the motivation for his blindness on the IQ twin studies: if Greekness is environmental it’s only a short step from there to saying intelligence is. Greekness for him is so environmental, in fact, that he’s either implied or said outright (I can’t remember which) that a Negro can be a Greek. On the other hand, the thing he loathes most in the known universe is the claim that Greeks have Negro blood (which is strange since, if everything about being Greek is environmental, there can be no “non-Greek blood”). The thing he loathes second-most in the known universe is nothern Europeans who think they’re better than Greeks because they consider that they have no Negro blood. For this last reason he always posts anything he finds claiming that northern Europeans (Europeans north of Greece) or the peoples of the Anglosphere countries have Negro blood (he just the other day posted one claiming the Boers have Negro blood). He loves doing this because, for him, 1) it gets back at northern Euros for the insult they offer Greeks in this regard — throws it right back in their faces, and 2) it shows that, if Negro blood makes a race inferior, the northern Europeans and not the Greeks are the inferior race. Dienekes also has a certain narrowness of mind — he’s not really a broadminded guy — and definitely tends leftward politically, which is unfortunate. That said, he has to my satisfaction debunked the century-old claim of the so-called “nordicists” that Greeks have Negro blood, he has not hesitated to debunk the race-deniers’ unbelievably brazen “races-don’t-exist-because-of-clines” word-game, he loves Greek culture and history, he’s not intimidated whatsoever by Jews (though at the same time utterly disdaining what are commonly called “anti-Semites,” a term which I myself reject) and is in general completely fearless before the PC police in those areas in which he violates PC, he has come up with reliable race-predicting algorithms using only distance measurements of skull and face, he runs an interesting blog and maintains other sites that contain hugely valuable information on race, Greek history and culture, etc. His support for Out of Africa over Multiregional is a mystery in the sense that, if that support conforms to the pattern he’s shown, Out of Africa must in his view somehow benefit Greece or bolster his conceptions of Greekness and so on or, alternatively, must bolster his favorite of all views in the known universe: that northern Euros have Negro blood (or that Greeks have none). But I don’t see how it does those except possibly in the most indirect ways, by the most tortuous logic. 8
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Sat, 21 Jul 2007 17:34 | # Dienekes was also the first blogger-pundit I’m aware of to make these clarifications about the Out of Africa theory (a theory I no longer support): 1) there’s no evidence the Africans who left northeastern Africa to spread over the world as modern humans were the same as today’s True West-Central African Negroes or even today’s East-African Negroes; 2) later waves of back-migration of fully-modern non-Negro southwest Asians into northeastern Africa contributed significantly to the genetic make up of today’s peoples of the latter region who didn’t get the way they are purely by indigenous evolution in situ. He also rightly opposes the claim that the Semitic languages originated in Africa then spread to Western Asia rather than the other way around. Furthermore, his (and “Race Realist’s,” who got it from him) averaging up of the faces of national soccer teams to see what each Euro race looks like was pretty good. 9
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Sat, 21 Jul 2007 17:53 | # Both Hawks and Dienekes are worlds better than Carl Zimmer, a Jewish anti-Euro bigot, race-denier, and race-replacement advocate (and yes, Jews are typically both race-deniers and race-replacement advocates: you’d think the two would be mutually exclusive but in the twisted Jewish academic/scientific race-denial anti-Euro universe they’re not). 10
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Sat, 21 Jul 2007 19:12 | # I just noticed there’s an entry on that Manica paper over at The Civic Platform, linking to an article discussing it. 11
Posted by der pustule on Sat, 21 Jul 2007 19:31 | # Fred, Hawks is taking about selection from environmental pressures, not lamarckian ideas of environment directly influencing skull development in the individual. 12
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Sat, 21 Jul 2007 20:03 | # Right, thanks and I certainly understood that. Did something I said give the impression I thought otherwise? Apart from the possibility of there being something to these very latest Lamarckian theories that have been coming out the past year or so, I join everyone with a high-school biology education on the non-Stalinist planet Earth (aside from Arthur Koestler in “The Case of the Midwife Toad”) in being no Lamarckian. 13
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Sat, 21 Jul 2007 20:06 | # (Or did you mean “Boasian ideas of environment influencing skulls”?) 14
Posted by Der Lace on Sat, 21 Jul 2007 21:36 | # Fred, you referred to Boas; that’s not what Hawks is talking about. Here is a list of Brace’s “neutral” measurements: There are differences that will have a profound influence on physical appearance, which is modulated by sexual selection, if not natural selection. Actually, given some of these metrics, with an emphasis on the nose, there are a number of environmental influences that can exert selective pressure. “Nasal breadth” is not influenced, for example, by climate? Then we have the problem of Neanderthals. Yes, the paper Hawks criticizes is flawed. But what can one say about someone who thinks Europeans are gracilized Neanderthals, of direct descent, when _all_ of the genetic evidence that exists as of today suggests that, at most, there _may_ have been some introgression, but this was limited. One can use the word “evidently” in their “papers”; it does not make it true. 15
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Sun, 22 Jul 2007 00:16 | #
You mean Brace here, right? Are you saying Hawks thinks this? I just want to add (not for “Der Lace,” who already knows) that: 1) the reason this study is getting publicized on MSNBC and the reason the outcomes of all this type of “African Eve” research seem to get hyped (by ... what else? the Jewish-owned-and-controlled media) is race-replacement-promoting Jewish media honchos love whatever sounds as if it’ll help promote white-Negro miscegenation and to them and lots of others “Out of Africa” sounds like that; 2) no matter which theory proves true in the end, opposition to race-replacement stands on firm ground since neither Out of Africa nor Multiregional has any bearing whatsoever on that question, none, zip, nada, zero, nil; 3) bear in mind what’s being debated isn’t whether the original human stock came out of Africa — everyone agrees it did — but only whether today’s modern humans came exclusively from there (later differentiating into the races we see today), as opposed to having evolved toward today’s modernity in more than one place outside of Africa from local older ancestors that did, in turn, originally come out of Africa if you go back further. So no matter which theory “wins,” we ultimately came “Out of Africa” anyway if you go back further. The question has absolutely no bearing on race-replacement, opposition to which is totally untouched by any of this debate. 16
Posted by Der Lace on Sun, 22 Jul 2007 00:25 | # “The question has absolutely no bearing on race-replacement, opposition to which is totally untouched by any of this debate.” That is indeed a major point. Differences between groups exist, regardless of how they came to be. However, obviously incorrect commentaries about modern human origins, which fly in the face of modern science, and expose an “academic’s” ignorance of genetics, does have some bearing on that “academic’s” trustworthiness as a source. 19
Posted by Hawkmeister on Sun, 22 Jul 2007 12:17 | # Hawks: “The phenotypic variance of craniometric characters is somewhere between 25 and 75 percent environmental. So from the outset, there is a large component of variance that isn’t explained by allele frequencies. More problematic, although phenotypic variance is the sum of genetic and environmental variances, reducing the genetic variance does not tend to reduce the phenotypic variance by an equal amount. This is because a reduction in variation in the genetic background tends to increase a third component of the variance, the genotype-environment interaction variance. Consider a field of hybrid corn. All the plants are genetically uniform, and this elimination of genetic variance tends to vastly decrease the phenotypic variance. At least, as long as the environment is also uniform. But introduce variation in the environment—low spots in the field with standing water, patches toward the edge with greater pest damage, and so on—and the variance in the genetically uniform field may be disproportionately great compared to the effects of the same factors in a genetically diverse field. All this is to say that if you want to use phenotypic variance to measure genetic variance, then you have to ensure that the environmental variance is equal. Of course, that’s a problem for human crania, since people manifestly live in different environments, arguably with greater variability (at least with respect to diet and climate) in Africa.” In a nutshell: there is a difference between an ecotype and a kinship based racial group. 20
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Sun, 22 Jul 2007 16:04 | # Speaking of Dienekes, just a little aside: mental midget “NuSapiens” who is linked in Dienekes’ blogroll (and for reasons I cannot begin to fathom, in Steve Sailer’s too) is publishing his site’s race-replacement advocacy now in Thai (click on his site at Steve’s or Dienekes’ blogroll link). If he was secretly Thai, that might of course have something to do with his pro-race-replacement stance (as far as I know he was assumed to be white). 22
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wed, 08 Aug 2007 04:09 | # A further challenge to “Out of Africa” claims Euros are not (as maintained by that PC-friendly theory) simply Africans who migrated out of that continent 70-100K y/a and replaced what pre-modern Eurasians they encountered, but descend instead from Asian lineages that were distinct from Africans already a million years ago (“early Pleistocene”) and were not replaced a hundred K years ago by Africans. It’s clear that Out of Africa is not going to survive scrutiny much longer. Again, whether it survives or not makes absolutely no difference to opposition to forced race-replacement. But you have to admit it’s always nice to see a highly PC theory get flamed. 23
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wed, 08 Aug 2007 04:18 | # Notice where Hawks says at the end of his log entry that there are theories that not even the original genus Homo came out of Africa, but the whole line evolved on the continent of Asia. I wasn’t aware there were any such “radical anti-Out-of-Africa” theories. That’s a complete negation of even “Out of Africa, Light” according to which we may not have come out of Africa a hundred K years ago, but if you go back far enough we did. This says the genus Homo never came out of there no matter how far back you go. That would be a decidedly un-PC theory, to say the least. Which is why I love it so much: it’s LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT! 24
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wed, 08 Aug 2007 05:20 | #
Maybe, maybe not, Mark — but even it that’s so, our women are more than twice as beautiful as theirs to begin with, which more than makes up for it, so they still come out better looking when they’ve arrived at “a certain age.” 25
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wed, 08 Aug 2007 14:21 | #
Of course the more PC types especially relish the claim among some specialists that our “African ancestry” goes back to only 40 K years ago, prior to which we were Negroes. According to them ... Riiiiiiight ....................... Sure .................. Any day now .......................................... 26
Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:01 | # Out of Africa is finished, dead.
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Posted by Torgrim on Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:10 | #
So, as I see it, a person from Northern Scandinavia, with a blood type, A2, if mixed with a person from Sub Saharan Africa, neither would be very adaptive to either climes?