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Comments:2
Posted by Frank on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 01:31 | # Is that the Brinkley/Joel offspring (in the third picture)? 4
Posted by James Bowery on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 02:18 | # It ain’t easy draggin’ down genes like Brinkley’s Yes it is and that’s the problem. 5
Posted by Voice on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 03:28 | # Hey I am a Mediterranean White(Atlanto-Mediterranean I have seen my type labelled) guys so lay off! lol Are Blonde Blue eyed Swedes the ultimate white person? I live with these soul-less wonders here in MN and the hyper-altruistic marxist sickos are nothing to idolize. The bland IKEA reality/consciousness really sucks thats for sure. 6
Posted by onetwothree on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 03:28 | # For a comparison, look at Kate Moss’s daughter: http://images.google.com/images?q=kate+lila&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images ...who is very cute despite her father’s rather severe goofiness: http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr;=&q=Jefferson+Hack+kate&btnG=Search 8
Posted by Alexei on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 09:23 | # Could she have been adopted? BTW, Jefferson Hack may look a bit goofy in some pictures but his long face with narrow cheekbones is neither ugly nor typical of dull people. On a good day, his features are almost aristocratic, in contrast to Kate’s slightly vulgar, though terribly attractive face. 9
Posted by James Bowery on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:01 | # <a >It looks like Brinkley wised up with the choice of sires of her other two children—the last a daughter who will probably turn out to be a real looker.</a> PS: Yes, JJR, she’s a real blonde. When I lived in La Jolla, I shared a house with a business associate and his sister, a woman who worked the pharmacy of the La Jolla drug store frequented by Brinkley during the late 1980s and early 90s. 10
Posted by Voice on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:00 | # Svigor I was having a little bit of a laugh on this one but I am a bit touchy about the whole Med thing. For the record though, I want Blonde Blue eyed(My daughter is btw) to survive and prosper as well and they have every right too not want to breed with a Med Greek or Italian. We just have to be careful here I think. We all know the right answer..Fortress Europe with each European Subrace staying in historical homelands..perfectly normal It is sad though because my sister , who looks very Med, is here on holiday as she has felt racial tension rise since importation of third world into UK. Very quickly European Sub races can be made to feel very uncomfortable as host population is threatened. She never felt this as a girl growing up just in last 5 years or so.. Another conundrum, how do we educate general public on these things? I suppose we don’t as nature will take care of itself and then it won’t be pleasant at all. 11
Posted by James Bowery on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:56 | # Liv’s father is “of Cherokee Indian, Russian and Italian descent”. Well, first of all, most Americans have a Cherokee Indian back there somewhere. They were the tribe present when the first Scotch Irish settlers moved to the New World. Secondly, _northern_ tribes of Amerindians are a lot more recessive than most would believe—not pigmentation-wise but from their remoteness from human origins. Mutations tend to be recessive and inbreeding tends to go with remote locations so you get a lot of homozygous recessive genotypes “out there”. Also, Russians are descended from the Rus Vikings. Finally, “Italian”? What’s that? It varies anywhere from Alpine types more aligned with the Swiss to strange breeds like the Sicilians. 12
Posted by James Bowery on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 18:12 | # Voice, if it makes you feel any better, one of the hottest chicks I know is a Sicilian. She’s married to a very Germanic Pole because she’s “prejudiced against Sicilians”. This is an unusual situation—usually the hot recessive chicks go for the darker men but here the situation is reversed. Not trying to interfere with her marriage—I am friends with both of them—I did ask her about her “prejudice” a bit but was unable to get a clear answer. Both of them are quite attractive and were it not for marital difficulties they would producde very attractive children. So the answer is, no, nordics aren’t the “superior” whites but there are times when it would be good to see the “best of breed” to continue the lineage—at least with the first and/or second child—before branching out to hybrids. 13
Posted by Voice on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 18:28 | # JB..Agree 100% with both posts. Racially, Italy is like one country representating virtually all of Europe. It gets to be a bit of a tough nut to crack with the whole Mediterranean question because it has been part of the wider world for a significantly longer period than Northern Europe. Italy is one of few European countries(even though low birthrate) that I have hope for. I don’t think they or the Germanic and Slavic countries will be race replaced. They have a higher level of ethnocentrism than say the English, but that may be the kicker right there! They don’t spk English and therefore don’t get infected by US English world..I digress 14
Posted by On Holliday on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 20:38 | # Let’s consider some of these questions in a more empirical manner. “Finally, “Italian”? What’s that?” The following paper is of some interest: Note that this paper is far from perfect and makes some questionable conclusions based on the data (and, essentially, merely confirms the basic findings from the early-mid 1990s). If we however focus on the data itself, we can see in Table 2 that 69/87 (79%) measured Italians – from North to South of that nation – fall into the narrow genetic cluster labeled “Italian” (half the remainder fell into the “Spanish” category). If we accept the “75% rule” for genetic classification as well as morphology: Then, based on this one study at least, “Italian” is a valid genetic unit for the country’s overall populace. Further, less than one-third of Northern Italians have > 10% Northern affiliation in this study, so unless one compares them specifically to Italian Swiss, there is likely not a large correspondence there. With respect to Russians, there have been unfortunately few comprehensive studies on that population; most work has focused on single-locus markers/few genes: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16161634&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum Though the data does not support the idea that the Vikings contributed a large amount to the Russian genepool, although some contribution was obviously made. Cavalli-Sforza’s data shows the closest relationship being that between Russians and Poles, with Hungarians also being close; these data support a mixed Slavic-FinnoUgric ancestry as being predominant. The following data: With respect to Amerindians, we have this: Which of course does not distinguish between North and South Amerindians. As well, it does not get into adaptive genetic interests, which the discussion of North Amerind “recessiveness” presumably is interested in. But, by what standard is this recessiveness measured? As well, aren’t Amerinds in general undifferentiated Asians, and, if the South Amerinds were the first to cross over, wouldn’t they have had more time in isolation from the larger Asiatic populations? I don’t see much to Amerinds other than an extremely divergent genetic profile; even if there are adaptive genetic interests there, that is also counter-balanced by the harm done by the disruption of higher-order genetic structure in hybrids crossing continental divides. 15
Posted by Voice on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 21:04 | # On Holliday, That genetic reference makes sense to me with Southern Europeans clustering in with Portugese, Spanish, Greek and Italian. I wonder why Italy and Spain have such widely different IQ levels? Italy 103 and Spain has one of lower IQ levels between 90-95? Do you think the Moorish rule impacted IQ this significantly or something else? 16
Posted by On Holliday on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 21:17 | # I don’t know the answer about Spanish IQ. One could always do - theoretically, for who will do it? - a study attempting to correlate % non-European admixture with IQ. One problem there is that selective pressure and independent assortment can begin to disassociate the two over time. I still think that in cases where a large effect is expected - European admixture in African-Americans- the effect may overpower the caveats I mentioned. But, hey, if someone is in the position to do the Spanish study, then do it. I’m not the expert on questions about IQ in any case. I do know that it’ll be helpful to have some more European-wide IQ studies to gather more data. By the way there are many caveats in that paper, and on some blogs Spaniards were getting disturbed about the fact that Iberians were clustered with Greeks. That, however, was in component I of the variation, component II showed a West-East variation. In this study the N/S component I was greater than the E/W component II by a factor of 28:12. On the other hand, Eastern European populations were underepresented in the study, so, while I believe that, consistent with Cavali-Sforza, N/S>E/W, I’m not sure of the relative proportions. The conclusions on Jews in the paper are absurd, because clusters were formed only with European populations, and then the Jews were “dropped in”, to see where they would cluster. One could, for example, attempt to see where Austrians cluster in a Asian vs. African study, but that won’t give meaningful information as to the origin of Austrians. 17
Posted by On Holliday on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 21:27 | # Also, Voice, I don’t see any problem with the original post. Brinkley’s reproductive potential was wasted with Joel, not only because the daugher has jarringly unattractive and disturbing features, but because of the genetic and identity consequences; i.e., the offspring is half-Jewish. Lest anyone say that is “anti-Semitic”, let me state that Jews should also object to the Joel-Brinkley mating, as they are always complaining about intermarriage and dilution of the Jewish stock. I suspect that that the more religious Jews are as offended by this mating as anyone here. Brinkley was never to my “taste”, but looking at her does not frighten the viewer; unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the visage on the right. Please note that this is no slur on the young woman or her character; I understand that she has been defending her mother during the latest personal crisis. I merely state that the Brinkley-Joel mix, from a biological perspective, seemingly has not turned out very well. Brinkley could have produced children with a father that would have resulted in children biologically more similar to the mother. 18
Posted by required on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 21:50 | # “Well, first of all, most Americans have a Cherokee Indian back there somewhere.” Rephrased for accuracy: “A significant minority of white trash with roots in the southern U.S. believe they have a Cherokee Indian back there somewhere.” Genetic studies fail to support claims of significant Amerindian ancestry in white Americans. The belief that modern Russians are descended to any large degree from Vikings is also wrong. I usually find your posts some of the best on this blog, Jim, but it helps when you get your facts right. 19
Posted by required on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 22:01 | # ” I am a bit touchy about the whole Med thing.” I’ve noticed. Voice overreacts like a typical thin-skinned minority member to a non-existent offense. One wonders why a “Mediterranean White” like Voice chooses to live among “soul-less” Nordics in one of the more Northern European areas of a country created by Northern Europeans. And what is his sister doing in the UK? 20
Posted by required on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 22:38 | # re: “Holliday” on Italians and the North-South clustering study: The authors fail to specify how they identified “Northern” and “Southern” Italians. If they based this identification only on the birthplace or residence of the subject, their “Northern Italian” sample undoubtedly included the descendants of 20th century immigrants from southern Italy. “we can see in Table 2 that 69/87 (79%) measured Italians – from North to South of that nation” That table doesn’t give a break down for different Italian regions. 18 Italians weren’t in the “Italian” cluster, which leaves open the possibility that less than 75% of Northern Italians cluster that way. Based on all the previous genetic and phenetic evidence I’ve seen, I’ll need a lot more data to convince me “Italian” is a valid taxonomic unit. However, due to the movement of large numbers of Southern Italians within Italy, I could believe such an “Italian” race may be coming into existence. 21
Posted by Voice on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 22:45 | # Required, I suppose it is perfectly valid post for this blog and I can’t disagree with anyone who wants to stay blonde and blue eyed as it is a lovely look to be sure, but as On Holiday pointed out Jews are fall within the cluster of Mediterraneans(which includes Greeks, Spaniards, Italians and Portugese). With the feelings(many times justified I will be the first to admit) towards Jews then it is the opinion of many on here that Northern Cluster Europeans should not breed with Jews. From here it gets interesting, because if this opinion is held then the same should be said that Northern Europeans shouldn’t breed with Southern Europeans because genetically(generally speaking) as one should expect a similar outcome. If we try to develop a European Consciousness movement in the US with this as an opinion held by the leaders of the movement , then we can forget about any success because southern europeans make up a large percentage of Euro-Americans(especially when you ask someone their ancestry and they confidently they are 1/8th Irish, German, Italian, Norwegian, Polish, English, Greek and Scottish!!!) And daggummit they are proud of their Italian heritage! Different dynamics in Europe but with similar disjointed nationalist(“hey we are talking culture from a nationalist perspective not race”) similar splits start to happen. As for my anti Swedish MN comment, it was meant to evoke the Extreme stereotype of the weak hyper altruistic Swedish/Scandi man. This corresponds to the more ethnocentric and less altruistic stereotype of Mediterranean(more corruption in Italy than Sweden as we know). Sorry required, both have a bit of truth associated with them but nonetheless generalizations. Side note, I hate MN with a passion with its high taxes and sickening media(Star Tribune and Pioneer Press) but I have moved my wife and family in the last 5 years from UK to Connecticut and back to my Midwest roots in MN and only stay because don’t want to disrupt kids schools etc. Also, don’t question me partaking in others hard work as I come from farming stock and worked in the fields since I was 10 as the rest of my family so I have the right to say whatever the hell I want. 22
Posted by EC on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 22:49 | # ” I am a bit touchy about the whole Med thing.” I’ve noticed. Voice overreacts like a typical thin-skinned minority member to a non-existent offense. Why are you then overreacting like a typical “thin-skinned minority member” simply because Voice used “soul-less” as an adjective to describe Nords? Mind you he did it in tongue-in-cheek fashion. Hmmmmm? 23
Posted by James Bowery on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 23:12 | # Holiday, thanks for the reference on the Italian cluster. As with the Russian data, things are changing almost seasonly if not monthly, so one’s working opinions are subject to review. In the case of Liv Tyler, I was merely pointing out that just because someone claims to have “Cherokee ancestry” doesn’t mean they have a significant degree and even if they do it is very far from clear how much that will change their phenotypes. Without some statement of degree of inheritance, simply listing off a bunch of ancestral groups is basically worthless—particularly given the social status that being mixed race brings with it within the current crap culture. As for how I would measure recessiveness—its pretty simple: How homozygous recessive is one’s genome? My working hypothesis is that the further from human origins you go ecologically speaking—and to some extent geographically speaking—the more likely you are to see inbreeding for mutations that are adaptive for those conditions and since mutations are generally recessive (due to deactivation brought about by the mutation) we should see them in a homozygous state before they show their selective advantage for those environments. Agreed, preserving the genetic correlation structures—particularly for the “best of breed” is the highest priority given the technological and political amplification of hybridization going on. 24
Posted by required on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 23:30 | # EC: ‘Why are you then overreacting like a typical “thin-skinned minority member” simply because Voice used “soul-less” as an adjective to describe Nords? Mind you he did it in tongue-in-cheek fashion. Hmmmmm?’ I’m not reacting to any perceived insult. I am pointing out that Voice’s beliefs and reaction are evidence of his incompatibility. My eyes tell me Southern Italians don’t belong in my country, and genetic studies back this up. But some like to fantasize otherwise. I’m all in favor of American southern Europeans openly displaying hostility for Northern Europeans. I hope comments like those of voice serve to wake up some of those who believe mixing northern and southern types in the same country is desirable. 25
Posted by EC on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 23:41 | # I’m all in favor of American southern Europeans openly displaying hostility for Northern Europeans. I hope comments like those of voice serve to wake up some of those who believe mixing northern and southern types in the same country is desirable. Yeah, good luck with that. In actuality and for simple clarification, Voice did not mean the words he wrote, unlike the words you have written. Or at least not too much. They were for effect which apparently hit too close to your home. No matter what you say your reasoning for responding was… 26
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 00:03 | # 38 of the subjects were identified as Northern Italian. If we assume that all 18 “outliers” were Northern Italian, this would mean that ~53% fell into the Italian cluster. Of the remainder, 9 were in the Spanish cluster, and 9 were in the Western-Central European cluster. Thus, 29/38, or 76%, fell into one of the two SE groups - again assuming that all 18 were Northern Italian, of which we do not know the information. The Italian-Spanish samples were weakly differentiated. Thus, if we were to assume that all 18 were Northern Italian, we can state that, for Italians as a whole in the study, 79% were in the Italian cluster and 90% in Italo-Spanish, while for the putative Northern sample, the numbers were 53% and 76%. The authors did not specify how subjects were identified in the study. One would hope that recent immigrants and their descendants were not included, but without the methodology being discussed in detail, one cannot know for sure. Thus, the authors should have provided more information, which is why I stated the paper was not perfect. I note that the Italian sample was, overall, more homogenous than the Spanish, for which the same caveats hold. 27
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 00:16 | # Voice: ‘because if this opinion is held then the same should be said that Northern Europeans shouldn’t breed with Southern Europeans because genetically(generally speaking) as one should expect a similar outcome.’ Yes. Didn’t you just get through claiming you accepted the right of Northern Europeans to preserve their racial types? ‘If we try to develop a European Consciousness movement in the US with this as an opinion held by the leaders of the movement , then we can forget about any success because southern europeans make up a large percentage of Euro-Americans’ Per the 2000 Census (http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/c2kbr-35.pdf), Italians make up 5.6% of the U.S. population. Italians are heavily concentrated in urban centers in the Northeast and Florida. Greeks are 0.4% of the population. This is against 15.2% who report German ancestry, 10.8% Irish, 8.7% English, 7.2% American [believed to be mainly of British origin], 1.7% Scottish, 1.6% Dutch, 1.6% Norwegian, 1.5% Scotch-Irish, and 1.4% Swedish. Just adding up Northern European groups from among the 15 largest ancestries, we get 48.1%. Adding French and Poles gives 54.3%. And there are additional, smaller northern European ancestries we can add. Southern Europeans are far from essential to the success of a “European consciousness movement” in the U.S. And if you are representative of American southern Europeans, they will only impede the efforts of Northern Europeans to protect their interests, anyway. ‘As for my anti Swedish MN comment, it was meant to evoke the Extreme stereotype of the weak hyper altruistic Swedish/Scandi man.’ Swedes have typically lived in very homogenous societies, and high levels of altruism are to be expected on this basis alone. That northern Europeans tend to be less ethnocentric is probably true, at least at the present. This is evidenced by the eagerness of many northern Europeans on this blog to accept southern Europeans, and of the likes of you to loudly complain if your minority group isn’t coddled. Partly, this is just a matter of majority-minority dynamics. Northern Europeans may not realize what they’ve lost until they’re a minority themselves. Your use of “soul-less” echoes comments made by southern Italians about northern Italians. I think southern Italians tend to use “soul” where others would use “loud” or “gaudy”. ‘(more corruption in Italy than Sweden as we know).’ Can’t argue here. As for the rest of your post, it’s strange for a “Med” who supposedly accepts the right of Northern Europeans to preserve their race, to move to the UK. I guess it’s good you’ve left and taken your mongrel offspring with you, but your current choice of residence leaves a lot to be desired. And, if you do in fact come from a farming family, you are extremely atypical of American southern Italians. 28
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 00:24 | # EC reads mind or EC is voice feeling the need to use a second nick in the same thread? 29
Posted by EC on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 00:33 | # EC reads mind or EC is voice feeling the need to use a second nick in the same thread? No, EC is one who knows many things, including the untenable bullshit you put forth. 30
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 00:34 | # Holliday: Personally, I’ll wait for studies with more sampled populations and more markers (and a sampling protocol that is explained) before drawing any firm conclusions about clustering within Italy. The main conclusion of the study (‘there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups’) is unassailable, though. 31
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 00:42 | # “No, EC . . . knows . . . untenable bullshit” Whatever you say, Salvatore. Is precious getting flustered that not everyone loves EC’s minority group, or does EC normally write sentences that make no fucking sense? 32
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 00:46 | # “The main conclusion of the study (’there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups’ is unassailable, though.” In other words, cherry-picking the data. Of course, the comments by the authors that there is not much difference in allele frequencies within Europe is ignored. 33
Posted by EC on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 00:48 | # I’m not Italian, Haggis. As for writing sentences that make no fucking sense, you sure felt the urge to respond derogatorily towards them. 34
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 00:54 | # ’there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population group” This has been known for at least a dozen years, and is obvious, so why you believe it is some sort of triumph, I’m not sure. The genetic gradients in Europe have been analyzed since the work of Cavalli-Sforza, etc. The utility of the paper is in the possibility of discerning narrower distinctions (e.g., Table 2), as well as the possibilities of estimating ancestral proportions in individuals and groups. I’ll give this paper a “B” and hope for more in the future. 35
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 01:12 | # “In other words, cherry-picking the data.” No. Given the samples used, the basic conclusion about north-south distinctiveness will hold up, while conclusions about intra-Italy clustering may not. “the comments by the authors that there is not much difference in allele frequencies within Europe is ignored.” Differences exist. I want to see Northern European genetic distinctiveness preserved. If you want to wipe out this diversity, feel free to make your case, though I prefer you pick a more ethnic-appropriate pen name first. Not that the Northern Europeans on this blog shouldn’t trust you like a brother, or anything. I just like honesty. Unlike Holliday, maybe EC wants to share his ethnic background with us, of which he is so duly proud. It’s amusing to see two southern Europeans on this thread immediately, one after the other, imitate an emoticon, neither noticing that it was not an intentional part of my post. 36
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 01:19 | # “This has been known for at least a dozen years, and is obvious, “ I agree. But some people like to pretend these differences don’t exist. I believe someone using the name Holliday once tried to make something of the fact that Rosenberg failed to detect intra-European clustering with 500 SNPs. If it takes 5000 SNPs to get the point across, so be it. 37
Posted by James Bowery on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 01:31 | # I think the point gets across by simply looking at the phenotypes. People can recognize various types within the European race despite the fact that Europeans may have the least genetic distance per geographic distance of any of the major races (Amerindians have the greatest looking at the graphs in Salter’s book). 38
Posted by EC on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 01:33 | # I’m not southern European either, Haggis. What I am is disgusted with little twats like yourself who rag on southern Europeans, though no doubt have a nigger or two in the family tree. The Nords who screech the loudest usually have the highest number. Oh, and if I had to choose between JW who presumably is southern European and a dipshit like you, “Queen of the Nords”. Guess who I’d pick? Intelligence and character reign supreme to me and JW exemplifies both. Your disrespect of him (as well as Voice too) simply due to their ancestral latitudinal origin speaks volumes for your character…and intelligence. 39
Posted by James Bowery on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 01:43 | # EC, Voice has a couple of strikes going against him from the outset: His joking about Nords and his residence among them. I’m going to be more tolerant of S.E.‘s who express these sentiments and in exchange I expect them to be tolerant of N.E.‘s who express counterwise sentiments, which I myself have done on occasion and will continue to do on occasion. I don’t consider the negative stereotype of Nords as being “soul-less” to be false given the fact that their environment is filled with more dominant genotypes that basically possess their souls and turn them into slaves. Give me a Viking or Goth any day. 40
Posted by Voice on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 02:00 | # JB Agreed. The only problem is Nords(at least this variant in MN) have a tendency to make themselves as well as everyone else in their midst slaves as they swallow the propanganda hook, line and sinker. Hell, I can look at it objectively and state uncategorically Med’s will be less trusting of outsiders and consequently have a tendency to be more corrupt than Northern Europeans. In this day and age that isn’t such a bad thing, but it doesn’t mean that Nords(again variant in MN) aren’t nice(but naive) people and deserve to be race replaced. Oh yeah, you betcha… I will step off civilized debate for a second for “required”. Just for the record I have a pure German Father(solid stock 6’7” 300 pounds), English/German Mother who happened to have Mediterranean blood(my guess Jewish way back) in her as well but she would never have known it. I look like a big mean German 6’4” 250 and if I ever got a hold of you for disrespecting my family I would rip your pussy head off.. 41
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 02:36 | # Assuming Voice truly is a confused German, rather than a southern European, it’s funny that he blames Minnesota’s problems on Swedes. Germans outnumber Swedes in that state (and in the rest of the U.S.). Germans brought more than their share of socialism and misdirected charity to the Midwest. Voice, if what you say about your background is true, I suggest you read the study Holliday linked to above and notice who Germans cluster with. Hint: it’s not Italians. “Dark” Germans are not typically that way because they are “Jewish way back”, and I doubt you are unless you have evidence you haven’t told us about. Though your belief that you are part Jewish goes a long way toward explaining your behavior. By the way, it takes a lot of balls to threaten someone over the internet. 42
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 03:02 | # EC, why don’t you tell us your ancestry and explain how you came to be such an anti-Nordic little bitch? 44
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 03:22 | # Okay, I call bullshit. A “pure German” father and an “English/German Mother who happened to have Mediterranean blood” do not produce a “Mediterranean white” son and a daughter so “ethnic”-looking she feels uncomfortable in the UK. It’s clear Voice is not what he claims to be. 45
Posted by George on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 05:03 | # “Hey I am a Mediterranean White(Atlanto-Mediterranean I have seen my type labelled) guys so lay off! lol Are Blonde Blue eyed Swedes the ultimate white person? I live with these soul-less wonders here in MN and the hyper-altruistic marxist sickos are nothing to idolize. The bland IKEA reality/consciousness really sucks thats for sure. “ Chances are, if you have to justify your whiteness or class yourself with a group known to bear the results of 2000 years of near eastern miscegnation: you’re a mongrel. 46
Posted by George on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 05:22 | # I agree with everything required said. The reason for the uneasiness of some southern europeans on racial matters is the fact that they simply don’t fit in with other europeans. Irish,English,French,Swiss,Germans,Poles, etc. would have trouble distiguishing between themselves. They take one look at a dusky ‘southern european’ and KNOW they are not the same race. 47
Posted by George on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 05:30 | # Well said required. A ‘English-German’ who identifies as southern european is truly a nutcase. The spawn should be nowhere near the UK. 48
Posted by d smith on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 06:48 | # Fantastic!! It’s been many years since I’ve seen a genuine aggregation of living circus freaks, and here I thought they’d been extinct for decades. Still, who would’ve ever imagined that this particular sideshow of terminally pasty specimens would ever prove to be so mind-numbingly….boring. Oh well, here’s hoping you carry on nonetheless, if for no other reason than pure nostalgia. 49
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 10:51 | # “I just like honesty.” I assume you would denounce anyone who would post pictures of recent non-European immigrants as members of the native European ethny? 50
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 11:07 | # Another look at the paper. The authors state that there is not much difference in allele frequencies within Europe. Of the genetic variation that does exist, they claim that 28% is North/South; 12% East-West. The N/S distinctiveness is observed using several thousand SNPs or with 400 selected SNPs. It is not observed with 400 random SNPs, and is not observed with the original sample set, but is observed only when the original set is selectively pruned of individuals > 10% non-European (as per their measurements). Thus, this: Is correct only insofar that the authors changed their sample set midway through the study to obtain a result not observed with the original sample. If the conclusions are unassailable (despite sample fudging), then these conclusions obtain only when significant non-European admixture is not considered, and the differences are of indigenous European origin. ” If it takes 5000 SNPs to get the point across, so be it.” The number of markers required to see a difference is inversely proportional to the magnitude of the differences involved. Which is the point of: “Irish,English,French,Swiss,Germans,Poles, etc. would have trouble distiguishing between themselves.” Curious that the distinctiveness inherent in the East/West split is not considered worthy of preservation. 51
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 11:19 | # “Irish,English,French,Swiss,Germans,Poles, etc. would have trouble distiguishing between themselves. They take one look at a dusky ‘southern european’ and KNOW they are not the same race.” I guess then the French shouldn’t feel so bad about not being able to pronounce “ciciri”, as their obvious phenotypic differences - so clear in the photos - would have doomed them anyway. I don’t think so. 52
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 13:09 | # With respect to the clustering of European groups, e.g., Germans and Italians: it depends from what vantage point you look at it. At a global, inter-continental level, these groups, and Europeans as a whole, do cluster together. Putting aside the issue of ‘massaged’ data samples (I believe the distinctions are real based on previous studies), looking at this study, when intra-continental European groups are compared, the first principal component separates Germans and Italians in different groups. One can then look at the two clusters and further separate them along a East/West axis in the second component. With sufficient numbers of SNPs, one could (as the authors allude to) clearly separate out ethnic groups from each other. So, to paraphrase comments here, if it takes X number of SNPs to clearly distinguish English from Germans, or English from Swedes, or Swedes from Germans, then so be it. There is no reason to accept 5000 SNP studies, but draw the line on those with 20,000 or 50,000 or whatever number, SNPs. So, with increasing numbers of markers, one can produce narrower clusters that are genetically distinct. A person therefore has, along the uneven genetic continuum, a number of points of interest on which to focus their attention. As suggested by Salter, MacDonald, etc. where one focuses their attention can be influenced by situational context and proximate concerns as well, with multiple points of interest between self and humanity being possible. Particularly within an intra-continental context, productive alliances can be possible and there are considerable shared interests. There are also conflicts of interest (other threads on this blog demonstrate that even groups as related as the English and Irish have had significant conflicts). Considering the difficult situation faced by the entire continental group, it is best for both the shared and conflicted interests to be discussed between reasonable people. Although I have disagreed with him in the past, and expect to do so in the future, I consider James Bowery to be reasonable, as he attempts to consider different points of view, and understand interests without overt hostility. Others, whose ill-concealed hostility toward Euroean groups oozes out at every opportunity differ from James in these important respects. In a real sense this is analogous to the JJR situation; one can discuss issues with someone you may disagree with, if the other person is someone with whom sincere and reasonable discussion is possible. At some point in the future, perhaps such discussions with James can be productive. Given the situation on other threads here, and conflicts in argumentative style and posting quality, these discussions will need to take place in a different forum, as I believe this blog is insufficient. 53
Posted by EC on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 13:14 | # Required, EC, why don’t you tell us your ancestry and explain how you came to be such an anti-Nordic little bitch? Origins consist of central Europe, mainly Slavic with some Austrian. Why? What’s it to you? Uhhh, can we speak now? BTW, I’m also dirty blonde and blue-grey eyed. Hope that adds some credibility too… Also, I never said I was “anti-Nordic”. I was only pointing out the hypocrisy of such a stance and it seems you enjoy “overreacting like a typical thin-skinned minority member” when confronted, not just “Meds”. LOL
Just a little FYI, Georgie. You may want to change your nickname when espousing Nordicist views. LOL 54
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 18:20 | # “Is correct only insofar that the authors changed their sample set midway through the study to obtain a result not observed with the original sample.” A big question for me is whether these individuals with >10% non-European admixture are natives or examples of poor initial sample selection. “The number of markers required to see a difference is inversely proportional to the magnitude of the differences involved.” Sure. Europeans tend to be more closely related to each other than to Africans or Asians. Northern Europeans tend to be more closely related to each other than they are to Southern Europeans. “Curious that the distinctiveness inherent in the East/West split is not considered worthy of preservation.” Speaking for myself, and I believe we’ve gone over this before, it is. Northern European preservationists do not advocate pan-mixia among Northern Europeans. They recognize that in the case of a nation with a northwestern European core, like America, northwestern European immigrants are more desirable than southern European immigrants. Do you disagree? “I guess then the French shouldn’t feel so bad about not being able to pronounce “ciciri”, as their obvious phenotypic differences - so clear in the photos - would have doomed them anyway.” I have not looked at that shitty little site in years, and don’t plan to now, but keep in mind that a substantial number of French citizens today descend from Portuguese, Spaniards, Italians, Poles, etc. “With sufficient numbers of SNPs, one could (as the authors allude to) clearly separate out ethnic groups from each other. So, to paraphrase comments here, if it takes X number of SNPs to clearly distinguish English from Germans, or English from Swedes, or Swedes from Germans, then so be it. There is no reason to accept 5000 SNP studies, but draw the line on those with 20,000 or 50,000 or whatever number, SNPs.” Again, the North-South division is the most significant distinction within Europe, not the only one. And, again, I welcome studies with more SNPs and more samples. However, there is no a priori reason high resolution clusters will form strictly along the lines of current national borders. I don’t expect that we’ll find Germans are homogenous and equally distant from the English. More likely, we’ll find northwestern Germans are as close to the English as they are to Bavarians, for example, and that eastern Norwegians are very similar to western Swedes. “Considering the difficult situation faced by the entire continental group, it is best for both the shared and conflicted interests to be discussed between reasonable people.” Problem is, some people like to ignore “conflicted interests” where it suits them. 55
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 18:45 | # ‘Origins consist of central Europe, mainly Slavic with some Austrian.’ Not too surprising. ‘Also, I never said I was “anti-Nordic”. I was only pointing out the hypocrisy of such a stance’ Pointing out hypocrisy? What I saw was a little punk getting angry that a NW European favors NW European racial preservation. Why is it hypocritical to believe that countries created by NW Europeans should be inhabited by NW Euroeans? Your outburst earlier: So, in EC’s world, it’s perfectly acceptable for some variety of dissembling “Med” to attempt to insult Swedes, because EC knows he is only joking. It’s not okay for a Northern Euroean to point out this instance of “Med” incompatibility, and one who does has “nigger” ancestry. This reminds one of the PC belief that it is understandable and even laudable when blacks insult or joke about whites, but never the reverse. The PC-cowed individual gets righteously indigant when a white person “cheats” and breaks this rule, exactly the way EC has responded in this thread. 56
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 19:04 | # “A big question for me is whether these individuals with >10% non-European admixture are natives or examples of poor initial sample selection.” I agree that more information is required as to how the authors chose the samples. I would tend to doubt that they sampled recent immigrants, but more information on their protocol is needed. I think it unlikely that recent immigrants would have relatively low values of non-European gene affiliation, although these may be descendants of matings between less recent immigrants and natives. The point remains that the differences observed were observed only after these individuals were excluded and represents indigenous native variation, most likely along an intra-continental cline of gene frequencies. “Sure. Europeans tend to be more closely related to each other than to Africans or Asians. Northern Europeans tend to be more closely related to each other than they are to Southern Europeans.” That is obviously true and was known of course long before this paper came out. The relative degrees of relatedness though are not proportional; the Fst differences are much smaller within the narrower comparisons. “Speaking for myself, and I believe we’ve gone over this before, it is. Northern European preservationists do not advocate pan-mixia among Northern Europeans. They recognize that in the case of a nation with a northwestern European core, like America, northwestern European immigrants are more desirable than southern European immigrants. Do you disagree?” The 1924 restriction was a fine piece of legislation, as it favored the influx of the NW European immigrants. The greatest concern at present is the non-western, non-European influx that gathered steam after 1965. “I have not looked at that shitty little site in years, and don’t plan to now, but keep in mind that a substantial number of French citizens today descend from Portuguese, Spaniards, Italians, Poles, etc.” That may be so, and the specific demographic histories of the sampled pictures should, in theory, be given (although difficult, unless surnames of the politicians makes it obvious). Nevertheless, the compiled pictures are useful, keeing in mind specific caveats. A do I. “However, there is no a priori reason high resolution clusters will form strictly along the lines of current national borders. I don’t expect that we’ll find Germans are homogenous and equally distant from the English. More likely, we’ll find northwestern Germans are as close to the English as they are to Bavarians, for example, and that eastern Norwegians are very similar to western Swedes.” This is likely true, and my examples were over-simplified for the sake of explaining the concept. However, even if the clusters break down in ways that transcend political barriers, there will be smaller and more distinct clusters formed as one uses more and more markers. And that is the basic point, that the clusters will become subdivided into smaller population units - which likely will not exactly match borders - and that these may be highly distinct at their level of analysis (but with very small Fst values). At sufficient numbers of SNPs, one could likely distinguish people from the West of England from those from the East, although of course, the differences will be small and the required SNPs large. “Problem is, some people like to ignore “conflicted interests” where it suits them.” I for one would be more than happy to discuss both shared and conflicted interests with folks like James at some point in the future in a more serious forum. I could also rephrase the above statement in that another problem is that some people like to ignore shared interests where it suits them, as well. 57
Posted by Voice on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 19:16 | # you are a stupid prat required. This is the whole subject of JB’s original post with Billy Joel “dragging” down Brinkley’s genes. Here is JB’s response to Svigor comment: It ain’t easy draggin’ down genes like Brinkley’s -Svigor Yes it is and that’s the problem.-JB You are such an idiot you can’t see the contradiction in your rantings but only the Nords are a victim of the slur. If there would have been a comment that the change in phenotype due to the mix was a shame because we lose a Nordic offspring then fine, but the comment was “dragging down” So if a Med(southern Euro cluster) makes a comment tongue-in-cheek , not about phenotype, but behavioural differences then he is - “Voice overreacts like a typical thin-skinned minority member to a non-existent offense. “ Fine..you hate the Southern European Cluster and don’t want anything to do with these darkie euros. Who gives a F##$? Shut up. 58
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 19:25 | # Voice, one point. If Billy Joel was to be clustered along a more global set of populations, not just those from Europe, I doubt that he would fall within the central tendency of any European cluster, not south and certainly not north (as, according to Seldin, even Ashkenazim fall into the southern cluster, when those are the only choices given). I would expect Mr. Joel would have a Middle Eastern component to his ancestry significantly above and beyond whatever background is found within Europe. The daughter looks, frankly, bizarre, and Brinkley didn’t do the world a favor by mating with Joel. However, as always, I would like to see a genetic analysis of the trio. Conversely, given Jewish concerns about their demographics, a wealthy Jewish male like Joel would have better served his people by “biting the bullet” and finding some young version of Madeliene Albright to mate with. In that case, Jewish ancestry and identity would have been conserved. 59
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 19:37 | # Billy Joel: Joel is descended, at least on his father’s side, from “German” Jewish (Ashkenazi) stock, and of course, is descended from a “Holocaust survivor.” Note the serial monogamy with women surnamed Weber, Brinkley, and Lee. The picture accompanying the article looks remarkably Asiatic and, of course, not the least German. 60
Posted by EC on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 19:57 | # Not too surprising. Not too surprising for what? Your preconceived bias that even someone with blonde hair and blue eyes ain’t “white enough” for you? LOL Yes, YOUR answer is not too surprising. What I saw was a little punk getting angry that a NW European favors NW European racial preservation. Really? Selective memory suffer you, perhaps? Here is my first post to you… Why are you then overreacting like a typical “thin-skinned minority member” simply because Voice used “soul-less” as an adjective to describe Nords? Mind you he did it in tongue-in-cheek fashion. Hmmmmm? As I see it, calling you on your hypocrisy, that being insulting Voice for being Med sensitive, while you clearly are Nord sensitive. You ask Voice to STFU about being Med sensitive, yet get bent out of shape when I bring to your attention your sensitivity. Understand there, “required”? Let me guess, you do not see the duplicity of the whole thing. So, in EC’s world, it’s perfectly acceptable for some variety of dissembling “Med” to attempt to insult Swedes, because EC knows he is only joking. It’s not okay for a Northern Euroean to point out this instance of “Med” incompatibility, and one who does has “nigger” ancestry. Not at all and it is explained to you in the paragraph above. You are only attempting to twist the meanings and argumentation to suit your needs. Your above statement along with the interpretation is completely incorrect. Also, I have no idea just what the f**k you are arguing about aside from only to save some degree of face. You clearly showed your true feelings which has nothing to do with your above fluffery and they can be found here… I’m all in favor of American southern Europeans openly displaying hostility for Northern Europeans. I hope comments like those of voice serve to wake up some of those who believe mixing northern and southern types in the same country is desirable. So, what you ask in essence, and to use your black/white/PC analogy, is for blacks to just accept you hating them and allow you to call them niggers. Right? Mind you, that is well within your right in my opinion, however don’t tap dance and get bent out of shape when called out on it….
61
Posted by EC on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 20:05 | # Also, I find your reasoning for Southern Italian “incompatibility” to be extremely lacking. Stating some degree of truth/generalization indicates “incompatibility”? LOL Tell me “required”, just which side of the Mel Gibson/Jew argument do you fall on? Just so I can synchronize my “incompatibility” meter. LOL 62
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 20:24 | # “The 1924 restriction was a fine piece of legislation, as it favored the influx of the NW European immigrants. The greatest concern at present is the non-western, non-European influx that gathered steam after 1965.” Agreed. Unfortunately, many southern Euros still take offense at efforts by Americans to defend their interests 80 years ago. “I could also rephrase the above statement in that another problem is that some people like to ignore shared interests where it suits them, as well.” Let’s restrict this to the U.S. case. Most S. Euros seem to be incapable of thinking rationally about N. European preservationism. It’s difficult for me to get to the point of talking about shared interests with American southern Europeans when most ASEs take offense if it is pointed out that N. European-S. European interbreeding damages N. European genetic interests, for example. It’s often claimed that ASE involvement is essential to the success of a racial “movement” in the U.S. As I showed with census data above, this is not true: ASEs are a small minority of whites in America. The argument continues: better not offend ASEs by discussing N. Euro interests, or ASEs will take their ball and go home, and then we’re all doomed. I would respond that if ASEs and N.E. Americans truly have shared interests, ASEs will continue working for those interests regardless of the actions of N.E. Americans. The claim then becomes that efficiencies are lost if ASEs and NEAs don’t work together. Well, “Pan-Aryanism” has been the party line in most American WN organizations for the past 30 years, at least, and just look at everything they’ve accomplished. Anyway, most NEAs live near other NEAs and most ASEs live near large concentrations of ASEs. And I believe any successful racial movement in the U.S. will start locally, not through internet discussions about how we must not offend Italians. 63
Posted by required on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 20:37 | # voicemonkey: Until you come up with a more plausible backstory, there is little point in replyling to you. As I’ve explained, IF you are a German, there is no reason to believe you cluster with the southern Europeans you’re getting so worked-up defending. But, since German/English people are not confused with Arabs; and since Minnesota German farm families don’t up and change countries every few years; and since I fail to see how your sister could simultaneously work in a Minnesota farm field from the time she was 10 and grow up in the UK; I have to conclude that you are a troll or a severely mentally fucked individual, and most likely member of a tribe known for looking something like arabs and changing countries frequently. 64
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 21:16 | # “Agreed. Unfortunately, many southern Euros still take offense at efforts by Americans to defend their interests 80 years ago. “ That’s a reasonable litmus test. Any SE who becomes hysterical about 1924, as do the Jews, obviously puts narrow ethnic interests first and foremost, and is not acceptable. “Well, “Pan-Aryanism” has been the party line in most American WN organizations for the past 30 years, at least, and just look at everything they’ve accomplished.” The lack of accomplishment has more to do with leadership defects, links to neo-Nazism, and lack of interest among white Americans, rather than “pan-Aryanism.” In addition, the “pan-Aryanism” of “most American WN organizations” has been, in my opinion, a joke. Who is pan-Aryanist? Amren is a journal, not an organization, and they are properly pan-Caucasian anyway, since they accept Jews. Strom’s new group, maybe, but what? - they are derived from the NA (see, re: Pierce below), which was derived, ultimately from Rockwell and Pierce’s involvement with him. Further, NV has a membership policy that they cannot defend, when asked to do so. Pierce, of whom I am very familiar, was a Nordicist (as Griffin essentially acknowledged in his biography), and a neo-Nazi follower of Rockwell. Who? Aryan Nations? Church of the Creator? Are those serious organizations? The defects of WN in America have, in my opinion, little or nothing to do with pan-Aryanism, and in fact, the constant throwbacks to Nazism and Nordicism do not help. “not through internet discussions about how we must not offend Italians.” The discussions should be about effective cooperation. In any case, “internet discussions” are over-rated, particularly if, as you propose, the significant activism will be local. ” As I showed with census data above, this is not true: ASEs are a small minority of whites in America.” Comparable to the Eastern Europeans, and, anyway, let’s have the best people of the various European-American groups contributing. I see room for cooperation among useful, reasonable and sincere people of various groups. The average white American is useless for activism, history is made by the active minority. “I would respond that if ASEs and N.E. Americans truly have shared interests, ASEs will continue working for those interests regardless of the actions of N.E. Americans.” Yes and no. Shared interests does not mean pure ethnic altruism; I don’t understand how, in a team effort, the actions of one part of a team to the other is somehow irrelevant for the functioning of the team. In any case, there are SEs who continue to work for white interests, the hostility toward them from others notwithstanding, so that in fact takes place. That is in fact not very efficient though, and as I said above, the failures of WN in America can hardly be laid to rest on some thin veneer of “pan-Aryanism” that the flawed leadership trots out every once in a while to swell the membership rolls - and of course, the membership dues. So, questions of efficiency with respect to ethnic cooperation cannot be conflated with the failures of WN for other reasons. “And I believe any successful racial movement in the U.S. will start locally,” That premise may or may not be true and anyway, given that SEs are, as you say, a “small minority” areas of the country in which they live are also likely also to have significant concentrations of NEs. Therefore, for example, the EAIF has had both NE and SE members, and, presumably, with Strom’s group, in areas that have concentrations of SEs, both groups are represented; however, members of NV would know better than anyone here. 65
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 21:22 | # The discussion has evolved to a point where I can make a suggestion that I gave another commentator here some time ago: people can pursue the strategy of activism they are most comfortable with. If the best activism really is local, then these different strategies wil adjust to their particular situations and either be successful or not. In general, as white Americans are kept fat and happy and mesmerized by the media, current prospects are not promising. 66
Posted by On Holliday on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 23:46 | # “If you don’t think Joel’s genes dragged Brinkley’s down as expressed by their daughter” As I said, the daughter is frightening, the features are jarring. Brinkley was a celebrity in her own right, so I cannot understand why she made such a poor choice with respect to her marital partner. And the marriage did not last, Joel produced this daughter and moved on to someone else. One wonders if Brinkley has regrets, or whether she is satisfied with her “glamorous” lifestyle. 67
Posted by On Holliday on Thu, 03 Aug 2006 13:35 | # Svigor, don’t worry. After all, according to the libertarians, Brinkley can marry whoever she wishes, and, hey, Joel may be a “rightist” and a “conservative”, so let us applaud the offspring. Indeed, the Volk have long known the value of Joel and his people. Indeed, the reverse is true, in that Joel obviously saw “value” in Brinkley. And, certainly, I am sure that an aging shiksa like Brinkley, who still retains her looks, can be said to have “value” in Israel, competing for the attention of the natives there with the younger Russian and Ukrainian female slaves. The Volk would approve; it’s the conservative - indeed, the “rightist” - thing to do. After all, we need to keep up the morale of the Israeli army in the fight to preserve “western civilization”, and, since Joel is finished with Brinkley, why not share the largesse? 68
Posted by Sahralinha on Tue, 03 Feb 2015 10:12 | # It´s very simple, there´s no need to beat around the bush. Post a comment:
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Posted by A. Windaus on Tue, 01 Aug 2006 01:28 | #
Am I missing something?