Sit Vacant

Posted by Guessedworker on Sunday, 06 November 2005 22:36.

Today MR lost one of its two most active bloggers, the rumbustuous, irrepressible Geoff Beck. Gone are the exhortations to feeble men to march on Washington (with guns, of course) and gone too the sudden, brilliant and unsuspected pieces of gold-digger’s research that reverberated beyond our page and into the wider blogosphere. I have quite grown accustomed to waking up daily at 7.00am and firing up the PC to see what Agincourt Geoff was starting while I was yet abed in England. I will miss that moment of discovery each morning.

The first thing to do, then, is to thank Geoff for the prodigious effort he has put in. It was not simply for our entertainment – though he was often entertaining - and not just for the sake of the blog. He laboured for the people he loves and believes in and desires to see survive, and I only wish there were many more people like him.

Geoff is one of the most sincere and open-hearted individuals I have encountered in a life of fifty-four years. Of course, the net being what it is I never shook his hand in person. Still, as with many of the folks who inform our proceedings, I felt I knew him pretty well.

He arrived on MR’s threads not long after our launch. One day Phil had put up a post on, I think, the American domestic political scene. Geoff disagreed with it with characteristic candour. It was probably something less circumspect than: You Brits shouldn’t blog about stuff you don’t understand. OK, I said. Put up, if you think you can do better, or shut up. Geoff, to his credit, put up. It was a decision which changed his life.

Obviously, I had expected to discover the complexities of life inside the Beltway. Geoff, however, promptly embarked upon a voyage of discovery of his own. I watched as he journeyed steadfastly west and away from the professorial, old-school adumbrations of Chronicles towards Sailer and Amren and thence deeper into the WN heartland.

Of the rest, including yesterday’s curious appointment with Herr Hitler, you already know. For me the Hitler pictorial thread was a “WTF was that all that about?” moment. To my mind Mr Irving’s little cache of pictures were of no significance. Only one was mildly interesting because it was perhaps amateurishly photographed by a wildly impressed German soldier. But all the rest, including those of Il Duce, were of worth only to someone studying the propagandist’s art. They added not a cubit to our understanding and I did not consider them to merit a place on the site.

But … we call ourselves free-speakers and cannot so easily choose the speech we are free with. That freedom includes the duty to bear criticism, and in this case the criticism was such that it produced an unbridgeable gulf between Geoff and the blog and its commentariat (FB excepted!). My removal of his main-post letter to Irving decided the issue, and now we are light one very active Kansan blogger and border guard.

So this post, by way of bidding Geoff farewell, is also an advertisement for his replacement. MR is extraordinarily fortunate in possessing an immensely knowledgeable and articulate commentariat, and the quality of thread debate here is frequently very high by the standards of any general-issues blog. Two or three regular commenters are already well aware that I would like them to write from my side of the blog, and that invitation remains open. But there are others – old friends - who, in my estimation, would make high-class bloggers but who never leave their e-mail details on the thread. I’m hoping one or two will, over the next day or two, step forward.

There’ll never quite be another Geoff Beck. But the blog must go on.

Tags: Blogs & Blogging

Comments:

Posted by Steve Edwards on Sun, 06 Nov 2005 23:08 | #

This is bad news. Geoff, if you are reading this, we all had a disagreement over an issue that got beaten up out of proportion. As bewildering as the entire episode has been, there is no one who wanted you to stop blogging.

Posted by Steve Edwards on Sun, 06 Nov 2005 23:22 | #

One thing I did notice about that infamous thread was Friedrich Braun’s timely intervention, with the effect of spurring Geoff on to a bizarre position that he had not previously held. I think Friedrich deliberately escalated the conflict between Geoff and the rest of us, and he eventually achieved his goal of splitting Geoff off from the readership.

It’s a pity we didn’t focus our scorn on Friedrich (a disgraceful individual and a destructive mischief-maker to be sure) much earlier, when we could have prevented a total flame war from breaking out on this blog.

Friedrich, you are a lying cad who is a disgrace to his countrymen, and I call upon the proprietor of this blog to ban “Friedrich Braun” permanently.

Posted by Phil on Sun, 06 Nov 2005 23:45 | #

Having known Geoff for about a year, I feel qualified to say that I got to know him reasonably well, as well as one could know someone from interactions over the internet.

Geoff has a heart of gold. If he were a soldier, he would die fighting to the very end but would not give up. But I fear that if he were a General, he and his troops would probably get massacred because he would charge too fast and too soon.

The amount of reading he does is absolutely incredible (which also accounted for his enormous output). And no one is as committed to saving the West from the condition it finds itself in.

Geoff was probably one of the first people we “converted” to our point of view. He was a solid conservative Christian (and I hope he still is) but was perhaps unaware of the larger issues affecting us.

It pains me to know that in his unceremonious yet tempestuous exit, I was the catalyst.

For all of Geoff’s sterling qualities, he has a ferocious temper and is sometimes, sadly, lacking in good judgement. We live in a treacherous and dangerous world. And the task we face is immense - and it is full of pitfalls that too many people before us have succumbed to. Our goal, first and foremost, is to be successful and to win.

If we love the West and want it to survive, then victory is not a luxury, it is necessity. Therefore, sound judgement is absolutely essential. Without it, we will almost certainly lose given the many factors lined up against us.

I hope Geoff can see and understand this so that even if he has no further involvement with us, he does incorporate this into whatever form his political activism takes in future. I wish him all the luck. I sincerely hope that there are no hard feelings between us. Despite what has happened, I hope we can remain in touch and remain good friends and well wishers.

Posted by TRI on Sun, 06 Nov 2005 23:49 | #

Geoff,

I’m very sorry to hear that MR has lost my favorite blogger. I hope you continue writing and researching on the internet, let me know if you do. And I’m sorry I was not able to come to your defense in that thread.

Best regards,
TRI

Posted by LiberalLarry on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 00:08 | #

To understand the world requires perspectives from many viewpoints. Geoff’s perspectives were callous at times, and realistic at others. Thanks for making me see things differently.

Posted by Al Ross on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 00:14 | #

Thank you Geoff for your immensely valuable contributions.

Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 00:16 | #

Thanks for your generous comment, Larry. The Geoff I know would be touched by that.

Posted by Mrs. Blessed on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 00:29 | #

I am very sad to come here and read this. I think that MR has lost an important facet that contributes to its luster. I do hope that tempers can even out and Mr. Beck consider returning. He is missed.

Posted by Svigor on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 01:42 | #

I think I understand Geoff’s frustration. It is a jarring thing to be racially awakened. In the first year or two it can be like an emotional roller coaster ride. I’m betting he cools off. I’m hoping he comes back.

Posted by jonjayray on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 01:56 | #

I am VERY sorry to see the Beckster dumped. I was the biggest target of his abuse but he was obviously a fearless thinker—which is rare these days. And anybody who attacks the Left as I do is inured to abuse.

But in the end I agree that David was right to protect the image of the blog. Heck, I even see the point when David deletes some of MY posts!

I myself saw the pictures themselves as very interesting from a historical point of view—even though, as a libertarian, Nazism is something I violently oppose.

Posted by Kubilai on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 02:12 | #

I too am greatly saddened that Geoff has decided to leave. I too am hoping that after a day or three he decides to come back. I too miss him though I do not want this to sound as if we’re eulogizing his passing. God forbid.

To TRI above on 11/06 at 10:49 PM, while there was the occasional commenter who was a little too spunky in their assessment of the post, I think that criticism is a necessary evil in order to hone the arguments and analyses made here. This is a critically important topic to all of us and it is understandable that emotions may get the better of us at times. I know I have been guilty of that before. The one thing that needs to be said is that the movement is greater than any of the individuals. Any of us. The movement needs to forge ahead, awaken and convert as many as possible, and to ultimately WIN. That is the goal that we are all here for, including Geoff M. Beck.

With that said, I still hope he comes back.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 03:02 | #

My feeling is that if Geoff is willing to control a certain pugnaciousness to his style he’d be a huge asset to this site and I’d love to see him return in that case. But Geoff’s being pugnacious in the face of what we’re up against in this struggle is like him climbing into the boxing ring with Mike Tyson and being pugnacious with Iron Mike. Where in the world does he thing it’s going to get him? There are tons of sites out there where pugnaciousness is the order of the day but I don’t have the feeling MR.com is meant to be one of them. I could be wrong.

Posted by Martin Hutchinson on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 03:12 | #

Fred, that’s spot on. Nice guy. Smart guy. Shall miss him. Wish him well.

Hope he comes back, but controls the tendency to lash out angrily when he disagrees with something—MR is much more effective as an Oxford common room rather than a bar-room brawl.

Posted by LiberalLarry on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 03:24 | #

Whoa, Geoff left because of being censored? hahahahahaha. I laugh hard at those who remain here. Seeing the praise that he got from the regular contributors, I’m surprised that you’re more upset. Maybe its because you can’t blame a liberal in this case of CENSORSHIP.

Peace out, I quit with Beck.

Posted by Amman on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 03:32 | #

Too bad. I never really agreed with much of what Geoff said, but MR is a free-speech blog, so I could certainly respect his opinions as a breath of fresh air in today’s rigidly-controlled media world.

That said, however, I wonder if it’s not a blessing in disguise that he’s gone. I’ve heard horror stories about how gung-ho the present Bush Administration is about quashing dissent—a friend of a friend of mine had his computer confiscated for joking about Bush choking on a pretzel in an AIM conversation! Perhaps I’m just paranoid, but I’ve always worried that if some humorless government spook happened upon one of the “march on the capital!” entries Dave alludes to, MR could have gotten into some major trouble…

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 04:10 | #

“Whoa, Geoff left because of being censored? hahahahahaha. I laugh hard at those who remain here. Seeing the praise that he got from the regular contributors, I’m surprised that you’re more upset. Maybe its because you can’t blame a liberal in this case of CENSORSHIP.” (—Liberal Larry)

Larry I don’t see the meaning of your comment at all. It’s exactly as if you’d written in Chinese: no different. Can’t makes heads or tails of it. (But don’t explain! Don’t explain. ... It’s OK. ... It’s all right ... just leave it at that ... It’s all right, Larry ...)

Posted by Kubilai on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 04:23 | #

In the interests of having some influence on the average patriot, I think David should probably take the whole thread down. - JJR

Absolutely not!

Posted by Amman on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:01 | #

This whole brouhaha about Hilter pics reminds me of those legendary 50 Hitler Posts I see elsewhere on the Internets…

Posted by Bill on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:06 | #

Good! I’m delighted to hear Geoff is gone.

This is probably the best thing to happen to this site. Fewer people will be scared away and not just dismiss this as a neo-nazi site (which I almost thought when I first came to this site and read Geoff’s posts).

Posted by john fitzgerald on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:32 | #

How about moving on to the Big Macs latest?
http://www.vdare.com/misc/051105_macdonald_stalin.htm

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:40 | #

John Fitzgerald, I just read that MacDonald article—very good. (It was linked by I think John Rackell over in the Hitler-pix thread.) Everyone ought to read it.

Posted by wintermute on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 06:33 | #

I am personally sorry to see Geoff leave the blog; the arc of his awakening indicates a deep integrity that will not be put off and cannot be falsified.

Once, he censored my posts here as an embarrassment, or as exaggerations, or as inflammatory material. Within a year, he openly, honestly, and unashamedly admitted that I had been right in what I said, and, for the benefit of all present, he repeated it. That is the act of a soul rich enough to be generous; someone who can act out of some other motive than inner poverty.

Some of you here have begun to suspect, and others to fear, that the path blazed by Geoff is also going to have to be walked by you. Having drunk this cup of gall to the dregs myself, I will also affirm that it is dangerous to your emotional equilibrium, your religious faith, your relationships, and your personal health. If you follow the bread crumbs of fact, re: the “Holocaust”, Barbarossa, Katyn, Dunkirk, Danzig, and of course, the trail of inquiry whose daunting entrace is KMac’s incomparable trilogy or the book “When Victims Rule”, to be found over at the Jewish Tribal Review, your personal integrity is going to be tested to the limits and beyond. In addition to that, you will be subject to certain psycho-physiological states that you won’t find pleasant at all. Deprogramming is not for sissies. I have seen people, learning the truth about the “Holocaust” for the first time, shudder, experience chills, weep uncontrollably, vomit, etc.

I’m about as close to an expert in this “field” as anyone and I state without reservation: after you “get it”, it takes about three years before the shock - and I use the term in its medical sense - begins to wear off. Though in all honesty, it never really goes away completely - only some of the more extreme manifestations subside.

Geoff followed the clues all the way to the bitter end. If he had a episode of some sort, I’d be very inclined to forgive him for it. After all, either you have you have stared into the abyss, and thus experienced similar symptoms, or you have not, in which case you are not of the calibur to judge him.

I am of that calibur. Geoff is a man for whom truth is more important than comfort or convenience or conformity. Writers here who believe that we are in a forced choice between “(1) setting the record straight on Hitler; or (2) saving the West” have it completely ass-backwards. Without a massive and ongoing revision of the rather clumsy Holocaust narrative that emerged in the mid-seventies (but not, it will be noted, in the memoirs of those who orchestrated the war, like Churchill), there will be not any WN movement, or saving of the White race. The ball and chain around every White person’s ankle is marked “Hitler”, and when the true story of those years is widely disseminated, things will begin to change, but not before. Any movement towards gentile group association is associated, in the Pavlovian way, with WWII imagery, and until that imagery is properly contextualized, there simply is no way forward. Immigration restriction is an even more stupid waste of time than dressing up as a Nazi; we now need a Race-spanning consciousness of our moment of crisis and the means by which we have been subdued. No revisionist activity needs to have anything to do with “Nazism”, whatever that is (I myself am an old fashioned decentralized federalist, who thinks there’s nothing wrong with the US Constitution that a racial definition of citizenship couldn’t fix). Those here who suggest that defending, explaining, or exposing the various hoaxes that pass for WWII scholarship are “Nazis” or “goons” or just in it for “dress up” can go back to Free Republic, where their comfortable Bush-fronted, Jew-financed worldviews will be treated more respectfully. From his handling of the sitiation, I take it that David intends to keep MR as a free speech joint; JonJayRay’s calls for more Indian immigration will be filed under “free speech”, and historical investigation of the Jewish Question and the real events (as opposed to the hundreds of false ones) that attended upon the German state in the middle of last century are outside the range of “free speech”. A veddy British outlook, indeed, though as an American, the margin by which I criticize grows thinner every day.

Posted by wintermute on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 06:35 | #

At this point, readers can ask themselves: who finances, and flogs, and finagles, for decades on end in favor of “group libel laws” and “hate” as a legal category? The downfall and recovery of the West (if such is possible) is not a simple act of Will by one agent (the “if only WE would . . . it’s US doing this” model). An internal colony of hostile aliens will have to be either neutralized or destroyed before a free range of motion is restored to our people and nations. Many here shudder at the prospect, and rightly so. It’s an ugly business, but not so ugly as what’s been done to us by a highly organzied, dedicated, megalomaniacal, and socipathic race of conscienceless parasites.

To see even one person like Geoff hold truth to such a high value and to speak it to power, as they say, is a pleasure and an honor. He has indeed passed beyond the ability of the vast majority of the denizens of this blog to judge.

Geoff, my friend, you travel with the Hyperboreans now. Accept fate’s portion gladly and go with honor. May the gods bless your family.

Also, my best to you personally,

Wintermute

Posted by JB on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:28 | #

Geoff I hope you’ll come back

Posted by Andrew on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:53 | #

You can’t leave the bar Geoff, you have not shouted us a beer yet, that’s crimminal in Australia.

Posted by Johan Van Vlaams on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 14:08 | #

Geoff,

I would rather say, what a fortune that we don’t always share the same views, so we can deepen our analysis. Therefore please reconsider and come back to the blog.

Posted by jonjayray on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:44 | #

“I’m about as close to an expert in this “field” as anyone and I state without reservation: after you “get it”, it takes about three years before the shock - and I use the term in its medical sense - begins to wear off”

I spent years talking with neo-Nazis in the 60s and 70s and, among them, to “know the score” was a rite of passage. It meant to “know” about the worldwide Jewish “plot”. But what they “knew” was bunkum.

Posted by jonjayray on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:48 | #

But I agree with the suddenly no longer mute one that Nazism is a ball and chain that has seriously distorted all debate on matters that they espoused.

But if you DO know your history, Nazism belongs on the legs of the Left, not the Right.

Posted by WJG on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:58 | #

Wintermute,

Your thoughts are mine exactly; I tried to say similar things in Beck’s picture thread, but wasn’t nearly as eloquent. Unfortunately, right now at least, most of the contributors here disagree. They think we must continue to nod our heads and wring our hands that Nazis (and Russians and Spaniards and, by extension, all Whites) were/are monsters. Any Whites who resist the treasonous machinations of Jewry are monsters. Many say the Nazis are a ‘necessary sacrifice’ if WN is to grow. Like you say, and I strongly agree, the truth is just the opposite. Until we confront our oppressors and their view of history and cast it (and them) down WN is going nowhere.

As long as we play by their rules any ‘victory’ will be purely illusory.

Also, your description of the personal process of this realization is right on. It’s not for the faint of heart and when it happens, all of one’s premises on what is right and wrong in the recent history of the West are challenged.

There is no doubt in my mind that most of the contributors here want to protect and defend the White Race in their own ways but I hate to see so many of our people playing a game they can never win.

Posted by The Mighty Mole on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:09 | #

I don’t think Guessedworker’s apologia is good enough. He committed a boneheaded error of judgement by letting this blog, even momentarily, be turned into a Nazi/fascist snapshot album, and he has been too lax in other ways—for example, letting that ego-tripping, logorrhoeic advocate of Eurasia, John Jay Ray, have far too much bandwidth. The fellow’s got a dozen blogs of his own, for pity’s sake.

Guessedworker should have sought a larger roster of contributors at the outset. The list of those purporting to participate is inflated. Several are seldom if ever heard from. Sean Gabb, for one, would introduce a welcome note of British historical awareness, but perhaps be doesn’t care to be seen in this company.

Mr Beck’s flouncing out—no doubt he’ll be back soon, nine days’ wonders become nine hours’ wonders in blogtopia—should prompt a fundamental rethink by Guessedworker. He must stop this site becoming a cosy corner for a handful of maverick feuilletonistes. ‘Freedom of speech’, if it means shooting ourselves in the foot in front of those itching for a reason to blackguard us, is not an absolute value for conservative patriots.

Posted by Kubilai on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:11 | #

Wintermute,

Of course a lot of what you say is absolutely correct, however not all of it. Let me ask you a few questions.

1) Why isn’t the WN movement rapidly expanding despite the evidence being out there regarding organized Jewish involvement in our demise?

2) Why do you think with this unassailable evidence at our disposal, we need to post picture of Hitler to further the cause?

3) Why do you think there are different levels of “awakening” from people? Specifically when all have been exposed to the evidence.

4) What was your reaction to Hitler and this evidence the FIRST time you were told? What about others you have run across? Did everyone flock to its rightful conclusion?

5) Do you think it prudent to beat the “Hitler was right” chant over people’s head as being top priority as opposed to allowing Whites their level of comfort with it?

6) Do you think we need to have millions of Whites with all of like mind to be successful?

7) Do you not think that once we have our countries back, THEN would be the time to teach unadulterated history where OUR CHILDREN and subsequent offspring would benefit the greatest?

8) Do we need Hitler as our rallying point in order to spread the truth?

Please come and post some answers to these questions. I disagree with you on a few points which apparently are based on some sort of wounded pride. The pictures were of NO benefit to this blog and criticism is a must in order to advance as a person and as a people. They were not taken down so there was no “speech suppression”, though the subsequent letter was taken down which again served no purpose and apparently the same has been done to the likes of JJR. Everyone here has been critical of JJR so your reference falls extremely short where he gets a “pass” and the truth is suppressed. But most importantly there is absolutely no need to have a nation of “wintermutes”. Now THAT would be catastrophic for the movement because we know where that would take us due to the barely hidden bloodlust eminating from your words. I am not naive to think there will not be bloodshed of some sort in the future, hell even now as we speak, however salivating for it and being up for the task are two different things. Please do not take my words to mean I am looking for some sort of compromise and happy cohabitation. They are not and I do not. It’s just the road to get where WE want is different.

Posted by Kubilai on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:19 | #

They think we must continue to nod our heads and wring our hands that Nazis (and Russians and Spaniards and, by extension, all Whites) were/are monsters. Any Whites who resist the treasonous machinations of Jewry are monsters. Many say the Nazis are a ‘necessary sacrifice’ if WN is to grow. Like you say, and I strongly agree, the truth is just the opposite. Until we confront our oppressors and their view of history and cast it (and them) down WN is going nowhere. - WJG

WJG,

Please tell me how forcing Nazi imagery into our collective faces will benefit us? THAT is the issue and not what you state. I think exactly like you above, yet do not see this benefit of this imagery that you and wintermute do. Please explain.

Posted by WJG on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:52 | #

Kubilai,

The imagery is useful in helping us to get over our naziphobia; though the pictures themselves are trivial to me. Until we get over that disorder it shows whose thumb we are still under.

Nazis are the Establishment’s most extreme image of the White Devil followed by Russian Christians (pogroms) and Castillians (inquisition) and then not so far to contemporary WNs. These groups are ‘devils’ because they tried to defy organized Jewry.

You seem to believe that we need to cleanse ourselves of the taint of Nazism to be successful. The problem with that is the enemy will then go for the next target and then the next. I believe we need to study Nazi Germany objectively, to not cast it down out of hand, but to understand that it rose as a group defense mechanism against the very forces we are facing. It should be studied not only so that we do not demonize our German brethren but so that we learn from them and do not repeat their mistakes. We also need to understand how it was the British who started WWII and not the Germans - for those who condemn Nazis for plunging the White race into another vile, fratricidal war. This is not a chauvinistic comment as most of my ancestors were from England.

If we Whites allow the Establishment to continue to drive wedges between us they will KEEP DOING SO. The big issue for WNs should not be whether the Nazis were good or bad per se (though that should certainly be discussed) but what naziphobia (the reflexive condemnation of nazism) says about who we are subjects of.

That is the issue for me, not gratuitous shock as some, probably unfairly, attribute to Mr. Beck.

Posted by Kubilai on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:24 | #

Thanks WJG. Good points, all. I agree with nearly all of what you said and the only issues are these:

The imagery is useful in helping us to get over our naziphobia

I agree with the real aspect of naziphobia and the extremely deep meme that has been instilled. My point is that the meme is just too strong at the present time. If I am correct about you and wintermute et al, we should not be afraid to show these images. To a degree, I agree. However this issue can be shown in the analogy of another “fear” such as say agoraphobia. The fear of open spaces. My approach would be to slowly allow people with this fear to come out into the open world. I feel your view is the “shock treatment” where an agoraphobic is placed out in the middle of the desert all by himself to get over his fear and on his road to recovery and if they can’t handle it, then too bad. This type of solution will work in a miniscule number of people and will be disasterous in most. It is also unfair to the people who still are quite indoctrinated because I, and probably you as well, did not just wake up one day and know the truth. The truth was slow in coming over months and years. I know how I reacted the first time I was told of such things and the reaction was not, “yeah you’re right”. Despite me being quite open to wanting to know the reasons for our plight.

I am not against the complete analysis of the JQ and all its ramifications, nor the analysis of Nazism and Germany circa 1930s. I am actually quite FOR it. Just showing pictures, though probably innocent, is not worthwhile and has been blown out of proportion.

The other issue that I disagree with is this:

You seem to believe that we need to cleanse ourselves of the taint of Nazism to be successful.

No, not at all. I just do not think it is to our benefit to put it up first and foremost for the reasons I stated above.

Posted by Amman on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:28 | #

I have seen people, learning the truth about the “Holocaust” for the first time, shudder, experience chills, weep uncontrollably, vomit, etc.

No offense, but, um, those folks seem kinda weak to me. I’ve been as “indoctrinated” as anybody by the public school system, but I didn’t “shudder, experience chills, weep uncontrollably, vomit, etc.” when I read some of Irving’s work, or even wandered over to Stormfront and the Vanguard News Network.

That said, I’d just like to point out that whatever his other, um, laudable characteristics, Hitler wasn’t exactly a big fan of the Slavs. From what I’ve heard, the Nazis did some pretty nasty stuff in their occupation of Poland, etc. that gave Stalin a run for his money in the sadism department. Now, I’m not sure if Wintermute and WJG consider the slavic peoples “white,” but I’m just saying, if you do, you can’t really expect the Nazis to be too popular with many otherwise ardent WNs.

Posted by WJG on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:17 | #

Kubilai,

I appreciate your well thought out response. I basically agree with everything you say. This meme does need to be handled delicately. If our motivation is to not want to shock people with Nazi images but also to be willing to rationally discuss German history in the early 20th century then we are in synch. That mindset will serve the interests of WN well.

Amman,

Great point. The Nazis are by no means a template from which WN ought to base itself - their treatment of Slavs being a glaring example to avoid - only that they are one way that Whites rose up against a foreign master to cast him down. They provide some examples of how Whites can organize and many examples of what we should avoid. I think Slavs are clearly White and are some of our greatest potential allies. The Ukrainians and Russians are now in a fight for their racial survival and their fight is our fight. The Nazi persecution of the Slavs was very unjust and is what helped take Germany down.

Posted by AD on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:01 | #

It seems everyone is an expert on which direction MR should take. The ‘moderates’ are pissing their pants, the ‘extremists’ are clenching their fists. Judging by the number of hits it’s getting, maybe MR should just keep doing exactly what it’s doing. God forbid a website doesn’t please everyone all the time.

Posted by Phil on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:12 | #

I was going to put up a separate post on the arguments raised here by Wintermute and WJG but it is basically not worth it.

When one’s entire worldview is formed by a perception of supernatural God-like powers possessed by Jewry and Jewry being the source of it all - the fount of all that has gone wrong in the West, no rational understanding of our crisis is possible. It is a waste of time trying to refute such ideas.

If Jewry really are so powerful that they can control the destiny of the entire West, what hope do we mortals have then? What chance of survival exists? If Wintermute and WJG are right, then the battle is perhaps over already. Because from isolated New Zealand to Ireland (where almost no Jews live as a matter of fact), they can exercise complete control over their destinies. Complete utter total control. The same could be said for many other countries that have engaged in the same amount of stupidity as America and Britain. And we could say the same about the French too, I suppose. France, whose ambassador once described Israel as a “Shitty little country”. I suppose the Jews were controlling that too. And I suppose that also explains why newspapers like the Guardian and the Independent that push multi-racialism with the determination of fanatics also criticise Israel bitterly and turn the Palestinian cause into another expression of upper class liberal chic.

However, Wintermute and WJG do hit upon an important issue which does need greater discussion at some stage: the use of Anti-Nazism by the Left to tar all nationalism with the same brush. There is no denying that this is a problem for all European nationalists. However, the problem only gets worse if nationalists remain obsessed with Hitler and the Nazis. All the Left then needs to do is say to the public: “Aha! We told you so!”.

However, and here I speak from a purely European perspective, the crisis is in the here and now. And the opportunity is ripe for those willing to take it. The chaos in France is getting worse, cars are being torched in Berlin and Brussels. For the first time, Europeans can see the effects of multi-racialism with their very eyes in terms more graphic than ever and they will soon be expressing their opinions through the ballot box.

Our task is to give them a viable alternative to tweedledee/tweedledum. The whole idea of politcal parties and political men of the nationalist right spending all their energies trying to save Hitler in the history books is absurd when one considers what this would do to the their political fortunes in the here and now - when they can win and effect permanent change in the direction of European politics. And the change would be permanent and decisive, make no mistake about it.

But may be I am wrong. I guess we need to keep talking about Hitler for the next fifty years. After that, there will no Europe left (or much of Jewry or Israel either) but at least we would have saved Hitler’s face in the history books. That really ought to take first priority.

Posted by Phil on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:27 | #

I have seen people, learning the truth about the “Holocaust” for the first time, shudder, experience chills, weep uncontrollably, vomit, etc.

That probably says something about our sissified generation that people go through such trauma while reading historical revisionism. In earlier times, men charged into a hail of machinegun fire uncomplainingly on the field of battle with gusto.

Therefore, Wintermute, such people (who vomited or started shuddering) were either psychologically unstable to begin with or so weak that they should get some Prozac and see a shrink. They mustn’t worry too much about the world lest they go completely insane.

And please do not tell me that I need to read revisionism. I have read tons of it with gusto and still like reading it. This blog put up a post on Holocaust revisionism and was threatened with boycott by Steve Sailer. But we didn’t back down.

But there is a difference between being a free speech blog (you will note that not one of your posts which are by definition anti-semitic was ever deleted by this blog) and political irresponsibility.

Posted by Svigor on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:29 | #

Larry I don’t see the meaning of your comment at all. It’s exactly as if you’d written in Chinese: no different. Can’t makes heads or tails of it. (But don’t explain! Don’t explain. ... It’s OK. ... It’s all right ... just leave it at that ... It’s all right, Larry ...)

LOL!!! I agree and got a good laugh out of that one.

Posted by Amman on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:41 | #

If it wouldn’t be asking too much, Phil, would you happen to have a link of this lying around anywhere? I remember hearing about Steve’s exodus from MR a while back, but I never figured out what exactly caused it…

Posted by Svigor on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:46 | #

The JQ is a tricky issue. The trick is to stick to facts and not extrapolate too much.

That said, I agree to a large extent with WM’s characterization of Nazism and jewry regarding how they stand athwart the road to racial normality, between whites and their destination.

The thing is, revisionism is risky but the rewards are incalculable. I know what jews would be doing if they faced the same decision: they’d go for all the marbles.

It isn’t hard to understand that if we destroy the Shoah we win. Jewry would never recover, not ever. They would be finished, utterly annihilated, in terms of moral standing in the world (there’s a quote waiting for a hostile context-free edit - have fun lurkers).

The rub for me is that I’m not a historian, and it takes a historian to assess whether the task is doable or not, and whether or not it’s the truthful position. That’s why I pretty much stay out of the whole affair. I bring up some rather devastating logical criticisms, but that serves only to raise serious doubt, which hopefully leads people to thinking critically about the matter. Doing any more than that would turn into a full time occupation.

Posted by Svigor on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:53 | #

You seem to believe that we need to cleanse ourselves of the taint of Nazism to be successful. The problem with that is the enemy will then go for the next target and then the next.

This is a flawed argument. It took billions of dollars and thousands of man-hours to demonize Nazism, to say nothing of a worldwide conflagration.

I’d say that’s a one-off affair. It’s a hell of a lot less work to avoid the symbology, the target of that demonization, than it is to undo all that work and expense.

I know I seem to have conflicting ideas here (not an unusual state for me). Maybe the best way is to let the revisionists do their work, for us to do ours, and to stay independent.

Posted by Svigor on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:58 | #

As far as the Nazi persecution of Slavs goes, if it was as bad as is said, why did a million of them strip off their Red Army uniforms and join the Wehrmacht?

Posted by Svigor on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:01 | #

The line between honesty and hyperbole on the JQ can be hard to find.

The fact is that the basic paradigm of jew-non-jew relations in the west has been one in which jewry, an elite population, has cooperated with native elites to exploit native non-elites. Miss that and you miss the real story.

Posted by Phil on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:03 | #

This is the thread I was referring to.

Posted by Svigor on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:07 | #

If you search for Holocaust it might pop up. It was no biggie. We were discussing revisionism and Steve made one of his two or three (am I overestimating?) posts here saying “holocaust denial” (i.e., he strawmanized) was beyond the pale and that if that sort of thing continued here he’d remove the MR link from his site. He was politely told not to let the door hit him in the ass on the way out and later he removed the link (I don’t know if this event is what caused him to do so). Later he restored the link, and afaik it’s still there.

Afaik there was no “exodus” because Steve was never here to begin with.

Posted by AD on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:24 | #

This is the thread I was referring to.-Phil

I wonder if it was that video that pushed Geoff from chronicles type guy to full blown WN(as GW described)? The responses in the thread are interesting.

Posted by Amman on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:37 | #

As far as the Nazi persecution of Slavs goes, if it was as bad as is said, why did a million of them strip off their Red Army uniforms and join the Wehrmacht?

At the beginning of the war, the Nazis were actually considered to be “liberators” by many Russians—understandable when you’ve been living under Stalin. The War Nerd has a really great article on this:

http://www.exile.ru/2005-May-06/war_nerd.html

‘Course, the Nazi attitude towards the Slavs probably convinced them that they weren’t going to be “liberated” any time soon. After that, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Wehrmacht saw its Russian recruitment suddenly drop off…

It isn’t hard to understand that if we destroy the Shoah we win. Jewry would never recover, not ever. They would be finished, utterly annihilated, in terms of moral standing in the world

In all fairness, though, a major strand of WN though claims that the Jews pushed the Western nations in WWI, engineered the Soviet Revolution in Russa, and years later, fooled Roosevelt and Churchill into going to war against their German brethren yet again.

If the Jews were powerful enough to do all this *before* the Holocaust became “common knowledge,” I’m not sure dening/revising/whatever the “holocaust myth” and “rehabilitating Hitler” will be the death blow to Jewry you claim it to be.

Anyways, thanks for the link, Phil. I guess you were right, Svi—the only thing Steve said in that thread was “I’mma stop linking to u :’(” And yes, he still links to MR, so…

Posted by Svigor on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:43 | #

As I understand it the Slavs in question joined in the later stages of the war, mostly in ‘45. I could be wrong in my recollection, or what I’m recalling could be false.

Posted by Svigor on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:43 | #

Sorry, I meant ‘44 not ‘45.

Posted by WJG on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:47 | #

Phil,

There are a lot of terms that could be used to describe our (White folks) overarching enemy: the Establishment, the New World Order, International Jewry, Liberals, Leftists, and many more. I, for one, am often guilty of using the terms interchangeably, when they ought to be used more precisely. Part of this failure comes down to the sometimes hurried nature of replying on the internet when doing many other things. There are clearly many rich and powerful gentiles in the mix but I don’t think using the label of International Jewry to describe our most fundamental opponent is far off.

Our enemy, whatever is the appropriate label, is in no way hindered by physicality anymore. You wonder how countries like New Zealand and Ireland are affected. Think about it. What if New Zealand, tomorrow, had an election and a White Nationalist party was to gain power. What would happen? The entire international establishment would rally to undermine them; tourism would be decried, tariffs raised, boycotts would be initiated, and probably most importantly, the elite of NZ would no longer be welcome in international circles. The modern university system, the closest equivalent to the medieval Catholic Church, would crank out the research and studies to display Kiwi pathology to the world. They would be disparaged and mocked. Most churches are also international in nature so the sermons there would predictably fall under the influence of these external forces. The western ‘entertainment’ industry would spit out anti-Kiwi propaganda. The gate-keepers of polite NZ society know these ‘rules’ and are doubtless averse to challenging them. Do you deny this? The sovereignty of every western country now is under the powerful influence of an international plutocracy. Call it what you will but to mock it or those who clearly see it is folly if you are serious about WN.

Also, the state of Israel and international Jewry are two vastly different subjects. Many folks (on the Left and Right) who hate Israel love ‘liberalism’ and vice versa. Much of the hatred towards Israel stems from the even higher ‘liberal’ ideal of hatred towards America and any of her allies. There are some who either hate or love both as well. To say that Leftist newspapers that hate Israel and love MC somehow disproves a strong control by Jewish interests over them is weak. If you can argue that liberalism’s love of the Jew is always stronger than its hatred of traditional America then you would have a point. It is a leftist dilemma.

No, the Establishment (if that is the better term) is not invincible but to refuse to acknowledge it is populated by people who (based on their actions) hate us will be our undoing I fear. It can be defeated but first by seeing it and being willing to face its wrath.

The issue on Nazism, from my perspective, is not Nazism per se but the reflexive denunciation of it. It shows who we are accountable to - a hostile overseer. Communism killed more Ukrainians than Nazism killed Jews. Why can’t they be discussed on the same levels? This question should be known to all but many wish it would just go away.

Because most of us refuse to confront this daunting hurdle is why I fear WN may not go far - I believe it will always be commandeered to serve Establishment interests whenever there is a conflict. I hope I am wrong since ‘anti-semitism’ (i.e. opposing organized Jewry) is doubtful to grow much.

Posted by Amman on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:47 | #

Huh, maybe. I’ll have to look it up. If you wouldn’t mind me asking, what are you citing? I can check if my library has it.

Posted by Amman on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:49 | #

^was talking to Svigor, sorry for any confusion

Posted by Svigor on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:50 | #

Amman, without addressing any of the historical arguments, let me just say that destroying the shoah wouldn’t be a return to the status quo ante; their reputation would be permanently destroyed, not returned to pre-war conditions.

Posted by Amman on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:55 | #

destroying the shoah wouldn’t be a return to the status quo ante; their reputation would be permanently destroyed, not returned to pre-war conditions.

Perhaps so, but again, looking at the influence they (supposedly, I guess) had even before the war, I’m still leery of the good it’ll do. Breaking someone’s reputation won’t automatically take away whatever power they have, although it may perhaps be a step in the right direction…

Posted by Matra on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:01 | #

It’s frustrating that the Left spread it about that if you want to preserve Western civilisation you have to be some kind of Nazi. But it’s really frustrating when people on the Right end up agreeing with them.

Posted by Mark Richardson on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:12 | #

Matra, well said. The liberal establishment would love to maintain such terms of political debate.

Posted by wintermute on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:14 | #

Too many false issues/starts raised here for me to respond to, though they will all have to be hashed out eventually. Myself, I’m not in the mood. Since most of my respondants make such a show of the superiority of their tactical/political/philosophical knowledge, then all should agree that my non-participation will result in more far-sighted and effective strategies for the Aryan race (or the race of the Last Men, just as one prefers).

At any rate, my primary purpose in writing was to congratulate Geoff on his integrity. Some blowhard above said that my posts had never been censored, but - like so many of the other points he raises - that’s just so much hot air.

There was a particular post of mine that ended, not with words of my authorship, but with Geoff’s North Korean like [contents removed as inflammatory]. As I said, it was only a year later that he was posting the previously offensive words and saying, in effect, that he now agreed with them.

However, I also happily concede Kublai’s point: Geoff’s offending posts were not removed from the thread of two days ago, and therefore my criticisms of GW are unfounded and unfair. I apologize for the mistake, which I attribute solely to my own long-windedness and love of my own voice. Guessedworker, forever may you wave.

And, as long as I’m passing out accolades, may I say that JW Holliday is the most inspiring and well informed writer here? I try never to miss a post of his - though I appreciate many other posters, especially GW and Nuenke, it’s his pieces that I usually end up sending round the E-world.

Finally, a note to Kublai: it is you who misread me, and not I you. I am no advocate of the public use of swastikas and jackboots - it is wildly counterproductive. I also understand - possibly better than you do - the need to guage one’s presentation to the hearer’s capacity.

You, however, ignore my point: all attepts by Whites to organzie on the basis of race will be met by unending “holocaust” propaganda. Nietzche once wrote that Judaism, which he called “the art of concocting holy lies” had reached technical perfection in Christianity. If only!

Holocaustianity - an almost complete fabrication based on decontextualized pictures of typhus victims who were prevented from receiveing what is by any objective standard heroic levels of care by the Germans (please compare with previous non-German internment experiences in Andersonville and the Boer War) - are now presented as victims of the “gas chambers”, technological terrors every bit as real as Orson Wells’ Martian Tripods, and deployed to much the same effect on American public opinion. Only you can’t go to jail for telling the truth about the Tripods.

The piles of dead bodies would not have been dead, without the “British” policy of saturation carpet bombing, which prevented food and medicine from reaching the camps. The Brits were good enough to sell photos of their handiwork to gullible tourists as proof of German beastliness, but the growing body of evidence show them, and the Jews, as World-Historical Liars.

You’re telling me to respect the delicacy of newbies’ ears; and I will. But I thought here I was among adults concerned with the preservation and political positioning of our race. My bad.

Sincerely,

Wintermute

Posted by Amman on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:17 | #

ttyl

Posted by Phil on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:20 | #

WJG,

The enemy we confront is not International Jewry, International Capital, “Elites”, “Plutocrats” and so on.

It represents a failure in our political education to see the problems and understand where they lie. There is no denying the role of Jewry or the role of business (in promoting open borders). But the Western crisis is a crisis of the soul - it goes to the heart of what we have become as a people.

As a great writer on Democracy once said, “Every generation in a democracy is a new people”. We have become a different people through the effects of our very long association with the principles of Liberalism (going back to the French Revolution, if one were serious about these things).

Why is it that Jews are successful at pushing a radically egalitarian agenda? Why weren’t people completely opposed to their agendas in the 1960s in the US? Resistance to the agenda was feeble at best.

Note that in the Middle East no amount of American TV (easily accessible through satellite dishes) has much effect on their hatred of Jewry, the West and of Israel. What explains it? Because their condition is different from ours.

I have not seen one white nationalist confront the fundamental problem with the whole “evil enemy” thesis - the West is richer today than it ever was (granted it won’t last - as we can see in France now but it is for the moment). People live in comfort, like living in comfort, want their entertainments, their paid holidays, their comfortable houses, better and faster cars, more electronic gadgets etc. There is no rebellion because people are comfortable and they are swimming in luxury (compared to say the generation that lived through the Great Depression, they live like millionaires).

So when we come out screaming that the world is falling apart, no one listens because for them - insulated, enjoying their pleasures and their comforts, life is good. Who cares about anything else? To make them see what they confront, they will need to see its EFFECTS.

What is happening in France now is destroying that illusion of the idyllic material life - the idea that life is all about the material comforts and about money; the idea that race, nation, God, country and family be damned. Those illusions are being destroyed so rapidly that some must rub their eyes to believe what they are seeing. Others cannot bear to watch it (liberals) and shriek “racism”. But less and less people will take them seriously.

To win our battle, we will need speakers who speak to the broad mass of middle class comfortable western man. They will need to show him how deluded his current existence is.

Engaging in endless talk about Nazis by political activists (not Historians mind you) will simply make them run away in the opposite direction. They don’t want to hear about the Nazis. Unlike us, they do not have the time or the inclination to think about these things. And their attention span is very very short.

Posted by Phil on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:21 | #

These are the multitude of humanity. They require leadership. We work on the assumption that somehow we just need to run every person we meet (online or in person) through a few hundred pages of historical revisionism and they’ll be converted. I am sorry but people who believe this are living in a fool’s paradise. The man on the street doesn’t understand these things, is not interested in these things and there never will be enormous numbers of them willing to listen.

I used to think like Wintermute some time ago. I once tried “convincing” people like that. And it didn’t really work (if I were to be charitable). It was a disaster.

The lesson I have learnt is that the multitude will listen and respond to big important events and clear, crisp, uncomplicated signals. It is incapable of the level of subtlety and the nuance you will witness at places like MR. Utterly incapable of it.

What we have today is a political crisis emerging in Europe – it is spreading rapidly from Denmark to Holland to France to Germany to Britain to Norway to Sweden to Italy, to Spain and so on. Our task is to be articulate and to be completely focused at what we want to achieve.

The first task is to end the third world colonization of Europe. The way to achieve that is by driving home a political consensus on immigration that stays together – well, for eternity. The crisis and the problems immigration is currently causing in Europe gives us the opportunity to do that. But the opportunities won’t come time and again. At some point, it would become demographically impossible for our point of view to prevail – because the third world vote will become overwhelming.

What is paramount is for this demographic disaster to be arrested – in the here and now. There is no time for endless discussions about Hitler and WWII. Time is running out. If we keep up with our Hitler and Nazi fetish, the opportunity will be gone and then there will be no turning back. The Europe that I know will have died. After that if Hitler becomes a cult hero (as he is to many Islamic fundamentalists – in parts of the Middle East, they speak with glowing praise for him) in a Muslim Europe who cares? Europe will be dead. That is all that concerns me.

Posted by Svigor on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:36 | #

Amman:

Here’s a revisionist page on the subject:
http://www.vho.org/tr/2003/1/Strauss63-69.html

Here’s the Wikipedia page on the Russian Liberation Army:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army

Apparently there were over a million former Soviets fighting for the Wehrmacht, and in 1944 most were gathered into the RLA to make it a real rather than just titular army.

Posted by seelow heights on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:51 | #

There was also a Ukrainian division of the Waffen SS. http://www.infoukes.com/galiciadivision/logusz/

Posted by Kubilai on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 23:34 | #

Many, many excellent postings and as Wintermute stated, too many to comment on. However, this(*) hit the proverbial nail on the head and exactly sums up my beliefs towards the JQ. Svi, per usual, did it again…

The fact is that the basic paradigm of jew-non-jew relations in the west has been one in which jewry, an elite population, has cooperated with native elites to exploit native non-elites. Miss that and you miss the real story.

As much as organized Jewry has been instrumental in the decay of the west, the societal changes could not have been implemented without a greedy, selfish, son-of-a-bitch, White face at the very top. Be they a useful idiot or willing accomplice. We cannot forget that.

(*) I also acknowledge Phil’s comment about this same issue and the role of advanced liberalism down the ages, however this to me is all intertwined. The aspect of us having become complacent and “fat” is intertwined as well. However, the point of having a golden opportunity before us cannot be overstated. We need to take it and smartly, otherwise we, as well as Europe, most certainly are screwed.

Posted by WJG on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 23:37 | #

Phil,

I agree with most of what you said except your denial (or at least strongly downplaying) of any institutional enemy who is working against us. Your points about reaching the common man are right on. We are victims of our own prosperity which has made us soft and unwilling to take on discomfort while simultaneously attracting the 3rd World masses who will destroy us. The foundation of much of our current prosperity is our genetic endowment and/or culture which, as it is undermined also undermines the prosperity it creates. As our prosperity is eroded there will hopefully be an awakening by our people and a willingness to act. This is the place where I think your theory falls short in that you seem to have faith that our established order will be a neutral observer to this decline whereas I think it will be (because it already has been) hostile. It will distort the facts and provide specious recommendations, as is now happening regarding the Paris riots. Why? because these ‘others’ are hostile to us. Another syllogism I see relating to your thoughts is that for WN to succeed it must attract a greater following, and to attract a greater following it must go ‘mainstream’ but to go mainstream (and this is my addendum) it must sell its soul. Once its soul is sold so is the hope of WN doing that which I think we really want – autonomous and overtly racially conscious nations. For WN to go mainstream without selling out it must either win over the gatekeepers that WN is OK (a very doubtful proposition in my mind) or replace them (possible but only if we acknowledge them). I agree that most folks will never take the time to get into the finer points on history and ‘conspiracy theories’ but they will be moved (if at all) when they see foreign mobs plundering their land.

Instead of our ideas having to be at odds, they are in reality complimentary. Any revolution or dramatic paradigm shift requires the masses to act but they will usually only act when a small percentage of committed ideologues blaze some trails in parallel with the revolutionary soil being ripe. In this case I hope the revolution is peaceful but it would be a revolutionary change for red-blooded WN to become mainstream. Please keep trying to reach the masses – it is absolutely needed. Still, there is a place for the more theoretical discussions. They need to be hashed out in a forum where hopefully truth and what is good for our cause can be vetted and the chaff discarded.

Even though I am American and will strive to protect my people here I think it is even more important for the people of Europe to assert themselves and reclaim their lands. Europe is our wellspring and cannot be lost. So I share your sentiment.

I appreciate your civil discourse.

Posted by Phil on Mon, 07 Nov 2005 23:54 | #

WJG,

Thanks.

I think the divergence in our opinions is partly dictated by the fact that you’re American and I am European.

I have had this discussion many times with American friends and they agree that immigration restrictionism is much more difficult to achieve in America - constitutional patriotism, lots of space for people to run away from immigrants, immigration mythology etc.

Conversely, Xenophobia comes naturally to most Europeans. It is true that the liberal elite tries to suppress it but they cannot get rid of it. And bad luck for them, they have allowed the entry of the most hostile immigrants of all - Muslims. This in turns only fans Xenophobia.

I think you attribute powers to the establishment that I do not. If there is one thing that stays in my mind about what is happening in France right now, it is the utter impotence of the liberal, multicultural state. In the face of a few stone pelting urban thugs, one of the world’s pre-eminent Nuclear powers is utterly helpless.

Well, if a few urban thugs can bring it to its knees utterly, how srong is it really? It isn’t particularly strong and the entire multicultural state is a house of cards.

So the establishment doesn’t scare me. The establishment is composed of cowards. And nothing scares them more than public opinion (which thus far hasn’t expressed itself with sufficient vehemence but it will, when the time comes).

Our task is cut out. And it is up to us to rise to the challenge.

Posted by Desmond Jones on Tue, 08 Nov 2005 00:15 | #

It is interesting to note that many of Europe’s nations: Finland, Russia, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Romania, Ukraine, Hungary, Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Ireland, remain overwhelmingly white.

What can be learned from them?

Posted by Luke the Drifter on Tue, 08 Nov 2005 01:32 | #

I am extremely disappointed to learn that Mr. Beck will no longer contribute to this forum. His posts were among the most bracing, inspirational, and thought-provoking of any I’ve had the pleasure of reading here.

Hopefully, those of you who are trying so desperately to rehabilitate yourselves in the eyes of your enemies will soon feel that you have served penance enough. The louder you condemn the iconoclasts, the more respectable you become?

To capitulate so eagerly, and to exhibit such callous disregard for a longstanding participant whose contributions far outshine those of his critics, is nothing but contemptible.

Regardless of where you stand on the wisdom of directly confronting the psychological edifice of NS and the “holocaust”, it seems to me that refusing to discuss these matters merely serves to perpetuate their status as unassailable sacred cows. By shunning anyone who dares to mention these topics without first uttering the required rites of condemnation and contrition you are validating and increasing the power of this destructive taboo.

No reasonable person reading this thread could come away with the impression that MR is endorsing the Nazi perspective. The participants here are intelligent, educated, erudite, thoughtful, reflective, and widely experienced. This is reflected in your posts. In the face of the fervent debate witnessed here, anyone who is determined to accuse you of being nazis will do so regardless of whether or not you permit a picture of Hitler to be posted.

To my mind, an occasional picture of Hitler is harmless.

It seems clear that some of the more vociferous opponents of Beck’s posting are motivated by a personal rather than ideological animus. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Nice posts, wintermute.

Posted by Svigor on Tue, 08 Nov 2005 02:03 | #

What can be learned from them?

That distressed white populations don’t draw carpetbaggers, hostile ethnies, freeloaders, parasites, interlopers, and the rest of the usual suspects?

Posted by Matthew on Tue, 08 Nov 2005 04:30 | #

“It is interesting to note that many of Europe’s nations: Finland, Russia, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Romania, Ukraine, Hungary, Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Ireland, remain overwhelmingly white.
“

Answer: Communism and/or Economic backwardness…...Not sure about Austria though as I think it has it own immigration issues

Posted by Luke the Drifter on Tue, 08 Nov 2005 04:35 | #

To atone for the almost-unpardonable sin of questioning the gospel of the “holocaust”, I am going to recite ten “Our Fathers”, fifteen “Hail Marys” and fifty “Heil Hitlers”.

I find that doing the latter helps counter the spell that’s been cast over the issue.

Posted by Luke the Drifter on Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:04 | #

I’m trying to find a t-shirt that says something along the lines of this:

“My grandparents went to Auschwitz, and all I got was a lousy bar of soap”

It’s just a joke, OK? Without laughter, this catastrophic event would just be too terrible to deal with.

They might be popular with rebellious high-school kids.

Posted by Desmond Jones on Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:43 | #

Austria is an interesting case. Certainly no economic backwater, strongly Catholic (more conservative) and extremely xenophobic. Haider, decried as a Nazi sympathizer, did not embrace the pan European notion of WN.

“We’ve got the Poles who concentrate on car theft,” he claims. “We’ve got the people from the former Yugoslavia who are burglary experts. We’ve got the Turks who are superbly organized in the heroin trade. And we’ve got the Russians who are experts in blackmail and mugging.” While Haider and the Freedom Party’s influence has waned, the “zero immigration” impetus forced a mainstream Austrian gov’t to adopt a jus sanguinis policy (a child’s citizenship is determined by that of his or her parents). This position dispenses with civic nationalism and a pan-European nationalism, replacing it with the notion of a blood relationship, an ethnic nationalism. Austrians did not fall prey to the notion of solidarity thru common white ethnicity, because, as the Canadian experience has shown, it is a treacherous concept.

The European Union did sanction Austria but the actions only served to entrenched the ethnic solidarity already coallescing around Haider. In only six months, diplomatic sanctions against Austria brought about exactly the opposite of the EU’s intended aims. Instead of putting a stop to rightwing populism, it increased its strength. And so they were ended.

Posted by luke the drifter on Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:10 | #

Austrians did not fall prey to the notion of solidarity thru common white ethnicity, because, as the Canadian experience has shown, it is a treacherous concept

For American whites, the notion of common white ethnicity is treacherous only by comparison with an unattainable ideal. American whites cannot afford to divide into ethnic clans. Unlike Europe, we obviously don’t have historic ethnic nation-states to fall back on.

If all white Canadians spoke one language, that nation would be far better off. America is not handicapped by intra-white multilingualism.

Posted by Desmond Jones on Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:12 | #

If the USA is not already handicapped by multilingualism, it soon will be. Canada’s multilingual state has existed for almost 250 years. The de facto Canadian position is two states. The issue that remains is to make it de jure.

Posted by Luke the Drifter on Tue, 08 Nov 2005 19:49 | #

America will indeed be divided by bilingualism, but, unlike Canada, the division will fall almost completely along racial lines.

Thus it will serve as an asset in the effort to promote racial identity, not a detriment.

For example, I can’t be the only one who’s angered by having to “push 1 for english, push 2 for spanish” when making telephone calls. You’d think, at a minimum, that English would be the default, but it’s not. And this even occurs when I’m calling official government agencies, including the court system.

While this makes me angry at traitorous PC whites, it also makes me even more angry at Mexican colonists.

Posted by Desmond Jones on Tue, 08 Nov 2005 21:31 | #

If ethnic identity is a detriment, it is not evident in the Quebec experience. La survivance for Quebecers was rooted in ethnic (and pre-1960s religious) solidarity. In other words if the French embraced the English as their ‘white brothers’ they cease to exist as a separate and unique identity. Their language is destroyed and they are assimilated. It is a powerful ethnic nationalism that ensured their survival for almost 2 1/2 centuries.

Thus if the Austrians embraced the Russians, Poles and Croats as their white brethren, it demolishes the kinship, the blood relationship. In additon the Russians, Poles and Croats will agitate for more not less immigration because of their own powerful sense of ethnic nepotism.

However, it may not be a solution for the USA. Alternately, a made in America solution may not apply to Europe.

Posted by Luke the Drifter on Tue, 08 Nov 2005 22:54 | #

In additon the Russians, Poles and Croats will agitate for more not less immigration because of their own powerful sense of ethnic nepotism.

This is what’s happening in Canada. The Quebecois are in favor of more francophone immigrants, white or not, because of their own powerful sense of linguistic nepotism.

It’s highly counterproductive and ultimately completely destructive.

Posted by Desmond Jones on Wed, 09 Nov 2005 02:11 | #

In the end, that is their decision. The right to self determination, regardless of whether or not they see it as counterptoductive, should be upheld. Just as conversely, the right to exclude immigrants should be upheld. The point is though, that as long as Quebec remains within confederation, and because of a disproportionate political clout, the pursuit of their lingusitic nepotism, has a negative impact on English Canada.

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