Posted by Stuka on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:22 | #

Excellent analysis.

...or ongoing and deepening civil strife (intolerable for the native population).

I don’t see how civil strife (war?) ultimately would be a boon to the liberal establishment, either. Worse is better.

Posted by a reader on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:04 | #

But he won’t name the other beast, will he, the beast that has open up our borders and pushed this in the first place.

Posted by friedrich braun on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:28 | #

The race war is on, and has been on for decades, really. I welcome the fact that it’s becoming increasingly “hot” or overt. Things will have to become worse before they get better. The ultimate goal should be the physical reclamation of our neighbourhoods, apartment buildings, streets, lands, etc. presently under foreign domination - by all means necessary. Hostile, and potentially hostile invaders (all non-Whites, except ambassy personnel, tourists, and short-term company transferees), will have to leave for their respective homelands of origin…no end ifs or buts. The suicidal beeding-hearts can always accompny them if they love diversity so much and just can’t without. They’re more than welcome to happily sign their own death-warrants but they have no right to also sign mine or to drag me along with them to oblivion .

Only a full-blown race war can save the bovine, hedonistic, weak, decadent, degenerate, effeminate, bourgeois suicidal West. It’s better to have an honest confrontation now while the odds might still be in our favour than to be eventually racially displaced and mongrelized and exterminated by the alien hordes.

The French “New Right” intellectual Guillaume Faye has been arguing along those lines for over a decade now - it’s time to act before it’s too late. Most notably in The Islamic Conquest of Europe http://library.flawlesslogic.com/faye_02.htm
where he clearly states that the only solution is a race war to the finish.

Posted by friedrich braun on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:38 | #

“But he won’t name the other beast, will he, the beast that has open up our borders and pushed this in the first place.”

That’s an excellent point, which must be emphasised again and again and again. Recently David Duke addressed the same point in a letter to a reader.

http://www.davidduke.com/index.php?p=320#more-320

It is precisely the jews who want to abolish Whites and physically exterminate them.

“A crusade to diminish race as a basis of privilege and priority is already under way. There are many white, anti-racist groups who are meeting and taking action to reduce the dangers and disadvantages of using whiteness as a measure of worth, a standard of normality. Consider, for example, the publication, Race Traitor, a journal published in Cambridge, Massachusetts, whose editors utilize it as a source of information and encouragement for whites and others seeking to abolish the white race and serve as advocates of the human race. There are an increasing number of college courses and conferences studying the phenomenon of whiteness, its benefits, its costs, and its possible cures.”

–Derrick Bell, “Foreward:Healing Branches on a Tainted Tree” in Documents of American Prejudice

...

Jewish Supremacism and the Abolition of the White Race
by Dave Cooper

http://www.davidduke.com/index.php?p=321#more-321

Posted by Ventris on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:53 | #

>>But he won’t name the other beast, will he, the beast that has open up our borders and pushed this in the first place.

If you think multicultural thought and the moral & economic basis for mass immigration is something exclusively Jewish, you’ve been woefully misinformed.

Posted by Svigor on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:26 | #

Only a full-blown race war can save the bovine, hedonistic, weak, decadent, degenerate, effeminate, bourgeois suicidal West. It’s better to have an honest confrontation now while the odds might still be in our favour than to be eventually racially displaced and mongrelized and exterminated by the alien hordes.

You know, I’ve heard this crap for the last 2 years and it never gets any more convincing.

There are no wars without popular support.  If we had popular support, why would we need a war?  The white race could end this whole thing with a shrug of its shoulders.  The trick is convincing it a shoulder-shrug is needed.

The “hot war” boosters all sing in refrain that “the time for talk is past” and “the non-violent methods have failed ” and the like; none of it has even been tried, but somehow it’s failed already.

Posted by Svigor on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:29 | #

If you think multicultural thought and the moral & economic basis for mass immigration is something exclusively Jewish, you’ve been woefully misinformed.

That ain’t much of a defense friend.

Posted by ben tillman on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:50 | #

If you think multicultural thought and the moral & economic basis for mass immigration is something exclusively Jewish, you’ve been woefully misinformed.

There is no moral or economic basis for mass immigration, but there is such a thing as “multicultural thought”.  That sort of thought was indeed originated and propagated by the Jewish community.  That others subsequently espoused it for whatever reasons (indoctrination, intimidation, incentivization, or imitation of high-status individuals) is irrelevant to its origins as an ideology designed to serve Jewish interests.

Posted by ben tillman on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:52 | #

There are no wars without popular support.  If we had popular support, why would we need a war?

The idea is that a “hot” war would generate support from those who have no idea that a “cold” war is being fought already.

Posted by friedrich braun on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:41 | #

“You know, I’ve heard this crap for the last 2 years and it never gets any more convincing.”

The war against western civilisation and the White man is already here, you haven’t noticed? It’s been here for decades now and times only have been getting progressively worse.

Posted by friedrich braun on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:55 | #

You want to see an example of the race war that’s already here?:

Germans quit Berlin school, sparking migrant debate

Turkish, Arabic and Vietnamese fill the air in the playground outside the Eberhard Klein school in Berlin’s Kreuzberg district, where German is a foreign language. The last four German pupils left the secondary school in the district filled with immigrants just south of the government quarter, giving it the distinction of being the only state school in the country without any German children.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/latest/...name_page.html

Posted by Svigor on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:06 | #

Bait n’ Switch eh?  First it’s “full-blown race war,” now it’s kulturkampf?

Posted by Svigor on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:08 | #

The idea is that a “hot” war would generate support from those who have no idea that a “cold” war is being fought already.

I don’t see how.  The war for media control/meme propagation is gonna have to happen first.

If a tree crashes in a forest and no one hears it, there is no sound.

Posted by Svigor on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:12 | #

...Unless you’re talking IRA stuff, which I can’t condone.  The way I see it, the white race is gonna have to wake up.  If that takes a long, slow awakening process, so be it.  Then, they should try the methods that have worked here, like civil disobedience and massive lobbying.

We haven’t even given it the old college try yet. (I mean in a racially significant sense; I don’t dismiss the efforts that have come before)

Posted by Svigor on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:27 | #

Our adversaries want us to behave like violent fanatics, I think.

That’s because it’s in their best interests.

Want to know how they want us to act?  Look at how they portray us.

Posted by friedrich braun on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:35 | #

If you’re waiting for the bovine majority to do anything to save itself you’ll be waiting a long time. All revolutionary movements were the product of dedicated fanatics. This struggle won’t be won at the ballot box and in accordance to the Marquis of Queensberry Rules. Currently, the system simply outlaws any movement/political party that poses a grave enough threat to its survival (see Vlaams Blok, etc. All nationalist movements/parties are being threatened by the system’s judicial arm…all will banned if they get close enough to political victory. You can bet on it.).

“Bait n’ Switch eh?  First it’s “full-blown race war,” now it’s kulturkampf?”

Where did I say that a full-blown race war was on? However, when you have racial ghettos, for e.g., all over western europe where Whites don’t dare to venture (including police officers), if they wish to stay alive and which periodically erupt into orgies of plunder, rape, and murder, when you have White girls being assaulted and raped by dusky aliens on a daily basis, and so on and so forth, these are all signs of early skirmishes leading perhaps to something bigger. The race war is in many ways already here with us; and playing the ostrich won’t help you.

Just because you haven’t seen it explode in “the last 2 years” that doesn’t mean that it won’t happen; or that its happening isn’t desirable.

“The war for media control/meme propagation is gonna have to happen first.”

Is this a joke? Who’s going to wrestle media control out of the hands of the establishment, are you that naive? If that’s what you’re waiting for to turn things around you’ll be waiting a long time. All White nationalists have is the Internet, and I don’t foresee a change. Additionally, with all the anti-hate laws on the books to stifle dissident voices, you wouldn’t be able to speak the truth even if you had a tv channel all to yourself.

Posted by ben tillman on Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:44 | #

I don’t see how [a “hot” war would engender action by presently passive Whites].  The war for media control/meme propagation is gonna have to happen first.

This is elementary.  Sacrificing for an abstraction like the “future of the white race”, for white people not yet in existence is one thing; facing a Mexican, Negro, or Muslim coming at you with a weapon is something that will prompt almost anyone to action.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:56 | #

Friedrich Braun is right:  there’s a race war on. 

Look, imagine a situation where they weren’t—where they were not—forcing massive population transfers of racially-incompatible peoples on us and giving these tranferred peoples affirmative-action-type racial preferences over us, and doing other things that in effect amount to aggressive governmental promotion of their, the incompatibles’, eventual social, economic, cultural, and demographic ascendancy over us, the original whites, the whole thing to be paid for by funds subtracted from our own hard-earned tax dollars, so that we ourselves are forced to pay for our own displacement and eventual submergence and extinction—imagine for moment they weren’t doing any of that, but they did force laws on us forbidding us to protest against governmental race-replacement policies in the event we might ever wish to do so, forbidding it on the gounds it was “hate speech.”  Imagine all that—they weren’t forcing incompatible race-replacement on us but if they were we’d be forbidden to protest against it. 

Now, imagine a situation where they were, exactly as they are doing now, forcing incompatible race-replacement on us, but we weren’t forbidden to protest against it—protesting against it would not be construed as hate-speech, not be declared to be STRENG VERBOTEN!  So, imagine they were trying to race-replace us by forcing massive incompatible immigration on us, but were were allowed to protest against it.

Now, imagine a situation—the one we’re actually in, it turns out—where they’re both forcing race-replacement on us and forbidding us—surprise, surprise!, as if by pure coincidence—forbidding us to protest against it, because, supposedly, as if by magic, any protesting against race-replacement is now become this thing called “hate speech,” and “hate speech” is all of a sudden STRENG VERBOTEN! ...

Now, think about that—How many here think the perfect conjuction of those two developments—the forcing on us specifically of race-replacement and the outlawing specifically of any protesting against race-replacement, both at exactly the same time—how many think the perfect conjuction of those two things was pure coincidence?

Yes, there’s a race war on—and it’s been declared on by behind-the-scenes forces who mean white-Euro Christians no good ... who mean their extinction, in fact.

As for Jews, they’re part of it, yes—but anyone who lived through the truly harrowing experience of Danaus’s, Mark.‘s (with a period after the k), Silverhand’s, and, my own favorite, quirky01’s, comments in those other threads—all of them white gentiles except possibly for Danaus who, I agree with Friedrich, may be a Subcon—will have no illusions as to who is the biggest culprit in what’s going on:  degenerate white-Euro Christians.

Posted by Stuka on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:10 | #

What I want to know, gentlemen, is when is Guillaume Faye going to be published in English?

Posted by craig on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:54 | #

I think mass immigration from Third World countries to Britain and other European countries is largely the result of a desire for cheap labour combined with post-colonial guilt . But if you want to think it’s all the Jews’ fault, be my guest.

Posted by Geoff Beck on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:20 | #

Craig,
I agree with you that cheap labour combined with post-colonial guilt are very real and obvious reasons for the immigration chaos.

Many here also know that the 1965 Immigration Act was crafted and sponsored by prominent Jewish activist groups in the USA, and they are huge promotors and financiers of open border groups in the USA.

That is why many on MR are concerned about Jewish activism for open borders immigration.

I know very little about the historical reasons for Europe’s descent into immigration madness.

Posted by seelow heights on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:28 | #

“I think mass immigration from Third World countries to Britain and other European countries is largely the result of a desire for cheap labour combined with post-colonial guilt . But if you want to think it’s all the Jews’ fault, be my guest.”
Cheap-labor mania is certainly a major factor in the US, but don’t a large percentage of the recent arrivals in Europe wind up on the dole? With respect to post-colonial guilt what post-colonial guilt do major importers of Third Worlders like Norway, Sweden and Switzerland have?  Or maybe we’re talking about white guilt, and what would be the source of that?

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:33 | #

It’s partly the Jews’ fault, Craig.  In the States it was solely Jewish pressure groups who agitated without let-up behind the scenes from 1924 to 1965 to overthrow the national-origins immigration policy then in force and replace it with the current genocidal policy which in principle dooms whites to extinction if it’s not changed.  Also in the States there’s a completely insane thing called the Immigration Lottery by which tens of thousands of people no matter where in the world, no matter of what background, are chosen at random to come to the States.  This criminally insane attempt at genocide of white-Euros in this country was apparently manoeuvred through as immigration policy single-handedly by Jewish interest groups said to have wanted an additional way for Jews to come here from anywhere in the world, but I suspect it also served an end which many Jews and most Jewish organizations consider to be “good for the Jews,” the destruction of the traditional white-Euro-Christian demographic majority here.  Pushing demographic insanity like this shows, by the way, one of the Jewish weak spots:  they repeatedly fly right into candle flames like moths and destroy themselves—how in the world could changing the racial composition of the U.S. and Europe from what they’ve always been to the combination of non-whites presently aimed at as the new majority race, with white-Euros in the minority—how in the world could that conceivably help or “be good for” the Jews?  It could only be an unmitigated disaster for the Jews, as it could only be for everyone else.  It’s insane, and any Jews who support that kind of deliberate race-replacement genocide or traditional whites need a psychiatrist.  They also need to be exposed and restrained, ideally by other Jews but if not, then by gentiles.  Someone has to try to stop these lunatics!

Posted by Randy Mandy on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 05:05 | #

Everyones talking about Jews, so I’m wondering, has anyone here read Kevin MacDonald’s “Culture Of Critique?” I just read a “critique” of his research methods, has anyone else seen this?

http://www.h-net.org/~antis/papers/dl/macdonald_schatz_02.html

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:17 | #

“Various political movements also emerge as Jewish group-oriented behaviors, especially immigration reform (encouraging the migration of non-European peoples to the U.S. and thereby limiting the ability of Americans of ‘Northwest European’ descent to safeguard their own interests), [...]”  (—from the article linked by Randy Mandy)

That article critiquing “MacDonald’s research methods” looks very interesting but I’m going to put off reading it till tomorrow, as it’s late—after one—and I’m turning in.  Just want to say I read the first two paragraphs, and the excerpt above caught my eye.  It’s as appropriate to call 1965’s Jewish-supported Premeditated-Genocide Immigration bill “immigration reform” as it would be to call, let’s say, the passage of an Israeli law guaranteeing to all diaspora Palestinians the right to return to where they or their family lived in pre-1948 Palestine “immigration reform.”  Would anyone give the label “immigration reform” to such a Law granting a Palestinian Right of Return?  If not, then please don’t anyone lie and call the Kennedy-Celler Immigration Holocaust Bill which Jewish organizations were instrumental in pushing through into law “immigration reform.”  An appropriate name for it would be, the Slow-but-Sure, Deliberate, Coldly-Calculated Genocidal Holocaust Bill. 

Call it by its right name please.  It wasn’t “immigration reform” any more than Adolph Eichmann’s plan for the Jews was, say, “German minority-population reform.”  The 1965 bill was a criminal attempt to commit genocide.

Posted by Svigor on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:12 | #

If you’re waiting for the bovine majority to do anything to save itself you’ll be waiting a long time. All revolutionary movements were the product of dedicated fanatics.

...supported by substantial segments of their host populations.

This struggle won’t be won at the ballot box and in accordance to the Marquis of Queensberry Rules.

Who said anything about doing it politely?  Our enemies have shown us precisely how to win such a war without firing a shot; by duping us en masse.

The solution, whether it takes the form of my realism or your fantasism, still requires a critical mass of racially aware whites.

Currently, the system simply outlaws any movement/political party that poses a grave enough threat to its survival (see Vlaams Blok, etc. All nationalist movements/parties are being threatened by the system’s judicial arm…all will banned if they get close enough to political victory. You can bet on it.).

I never once ruled out a hot war.  What I said was we should give it the old college try first which, to date, our race has not done.

As for banning parties, do you know what a propaganda victory this would be?  Americans ain’t Europeans, and they wouldn’t accept such a ban the way Europeans do.

Where did I say that a full-blown race war was on?

Another bait n’ switch eh?  This is starting to impress me as disingenuous.

for e.g., all over western europe…[snip]

Just because you haven’t seen it explode in “the last 2 years” that doesn’t mean that it won’t happen; or that its happening isn’t desirable.

How exactly is a “hot” race war going to happen when all our people know is race-surrender and race-retreat?  This, imo, is the true naivete.

Is this a joke? Who’s going to wrestle media control out of the hands of the establishment, are you that naive? If that’s what you’re waiting for to turn things around you’ll be waiting a long time. All White nationalists have is the Internet, and I don’t foresee a change.

The Internet is already causing problems for the mainstream media.  As I said above, look for p2p broadband delivery of content in the near future, which will totally decentralize mass media delivery.

The old media is on its way to irrelevance.  Having a network won’t mean nearly as much in future, once they’re garage affairs.

Most real thinkers have already given up on the mainstream media as anything but an establishment mouthpiece.

The bottom line is that I think this will take a long-term effort, and that short-term thinking will get us nowhere.  We’re going to have to awaken a substantial portion of our race before we can make any real progress.

Right now we are, in my opinion, in a patient stage where we should be crafting and polishing our rhetoric.  Something this simple is still eluding us.  The movement is in its gestation stage.  That may be hard to accept for someone who’s been aware of the dynamics for ten, twenty, thirty or more years.

Additionally, with all the anti-hate laws on the books to stifle dissident voices, you wouldn’t be able to speak the truth even if you had a tv channel all to yourself.

I’m sure we’ll be able to figure something out.  Again, we’d gain substantial political capital from the enactment of such laws.

America is free enough for our needs, right now.  This may change, and if it does so will my evaluations.

If we have to convert our own race to its own interests one member at a time, then that’s what we’ll do.  The door to WNism, in practical terms, swings only one way.  What we have to do now is grease the hinges so they don’t squeak so damn much, and then start leading whites to it in earnest.

Posted by Svigor on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:16 | #

This is elementary.  Sacrificing for an abstraction like the “future of the white race”, for white people not yet in existence is one thing; facing a Mexican, Negro, or Muslim coming at you with a weapon is something that will prompt almost anyone to action.

What is going to start the non-whites coming at us en masse?  They’re getting everything they want now, why would they screw that up?  Why would our eminence grises let them?

The current (ultra) low-intensity conflict between whites and non-whites has substantial room to grow before it becomes impossible to ignore, given the monolithic alignment of the media.

Posted by Svigor on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:25 | #

Yes, I’ve read that critique, and I found that it made only one minor, potentially valid point if memory serves.  I’ll wait until I know what KMac has to say before I pass judgement.

Posted by Svigor on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:32 | #

It almost seems as if its author is suggesting that MacDonald must agree with Schatz to quote him.

Posted by ben tillman on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:32 | #

I just read a “critique” of his research methods, has anyone else seen this?

Jeff Schatz’s argument throughout—and I read all the H-Net postings contemporaneously—amounted to the following:  the things I write in my history books are facts when I want to draw conclusions from them, but they are not facts when you want to draw conclusions from them.

I have read perhaps a dozen of the Jewish sources cited by MacDonald, and have dozens more on my shelves to which I refer occasionally, and—though there may be a minor mistake here or there—the sources bear out the citations.

But more importantly, MacDonald uses the predominantly Jewish sources to construct a theory that provides us with a revelatory interpretive framework.  Even if every putative source were wholly fabricated, we would still be able to confirm from empirical observation that his theory is correct.

Posted by ben tillman on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:36 | #

What is going to start the non-whites coming at us en masse?

I don’t know.  I did not contend that this will happen soon, although obviously it has been remarked that publicized terrorist attacks are a step in the direction of a “hot” war.  I simply explained why some hope for a “hot” war now, when our numbers are better than they will be three decades down the road.

Posted by Svigor on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:06 | #

I understand perfectly why some hope for a hot war.  It would make things easy, and it has romantic appeal.

Back in the real world, we’re going to have to do a lot of very boring, very patient work.

Re: Shatz, issn’t the bit about how KMac “pretended Jews hadn’t emigrated” mystifying?  I kept thinking, “so what?”

Posted by Svigor on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:15 | #

Sorry about the non-sequitur, but I was thinking about tactics last night.

I think we need more liberal WNs: many people love statist demagoguery, why not give it to them (in a form that’s actually sustainable)?

Posted by Svigor on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:31 | #

Oh, and let’s be honest here: yes, in terms of demographics the white potential for hot war abates over time, but in terms of psychology it increases.  More to the point, I think there’s considerable headroom in the former and much more need of the latter.

Once awakened, I like our chances even in a much worse material position.

Posted by ben tillman on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:33 | #

If we have to convert our own race to its own interests one member at a time, then that’s what we’ll do.  The door to WNism, in practical terms, swings only one way.

I believe (and fervently hope) this is true, as this is about all we can do at the moment.

Posted by Randy Mandy on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:56 | #

Jeff Schatz’s argument throughout—and I read all the H-Net postings contemporaneously

Ooooh, have there been more critiques of MacDonald? Would it be too much trouble to provide me a link to them?

Posted by friedrich braun on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:44 | #

“Another bait n’ switch eh?  This is starting to impress me as disingenuous.”

This is the second time I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. What “bait n’ switch”? Maybe I’m not making myself clear. European students getting evinced from their schools and racially replaced by invading hordes (as in the story I posted of relating how the last German pupils are forced to leave a “German” school now overwhelmingly populated by immigrants) is to me indicative of a race-war in Germany (but such occurrences are also happening throughout Europe) where the indigenous population is being evinced and replaced by the invading masses and is not merely some episode of “Kulturkampf” (?).

Posted by ben tillman on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:19 | #

Ooooh, have there been more critiques of MacDonald? Would it be too much trouble to provide me a link to them?

No—after 7 years, Lieberman’s piece is it, and it challenges one datum out of three volumes that erect a highly redundant intellectual edifice.  Of course, Lieberman wants you to infer that one mistake (whether or not honest) casts into doubt all of the data on which MacDonald has constructed his theory.  Yet no one has noted any other mistakes, and—again—because of his insights, we can all determine from his (or other) sources that his theory is correct. 

When I say that I followed the H-Net postings contemporaneously, I refer to the log of emails among email list members of the H-Net antisemitism group.

Posted by friedrich braun on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:48 | #

“Of course, Lieberman wants you to infer that one mistake (whether or not honest) casts into doubt all of the data on which MacDonald has constructed his theory.”

What mistake are we talking about?

Posted by Randy Mandy on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:12 | #

Ahhh, I see. Thanks anyway, Ben. I’m wondering though, are those logs of the H-net antisemitism mailing group public? Maybe those are interesting…

Posted by Svigor on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:44 | #

Ooooh, have there been more critiques of MacDonald? Would it be too much trouble to provide me a link to them?

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showpost.php?p=2032795&postcount=1

That’s a jumble of reviews, commentary, critiques, responses, etc.

Posted by JB on Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:24 | #

Mark Steyn only targets muslims. In a piece in the Spectator (link below) he called europeans “worse than cockroaches” for being anti-Israel and allowing muslims to conquer them demographically and he said that in a 100 years from now America will be much stronger than Europe because of its demographic growth. He can’t be ignorant of the source of that demographic growth so I can only presume he knows there’s a latino invasion going on and he doesn’t care because they’re not muslims, so he doesn’t want his readers to worry about that. After all, as we all know, if you’re not a muslim you’re potentially an american.

Europeans are worse than cockroaches
The Spectator