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National Vanguard closed down The headline reads “National Vanguard Closes Shop”, and the explanation:-
Comments:2
Posted by wintermute on Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:38 | # Readers of National Vanguard are directed to the two following successor organziations, which serve NV’s organizational and newsgathering functions, but which have been set up under vastly better thought out principles of goveranance. In both case, long standing questions of tone and graphic design seem to have also been addressed, to great advantage. European Americans United: http://www.europeanamericansunited.org/index.php?categoryid=1
Features news, Action Alerts for mass email responses, as well as podcasts. My opinion, this is the best thing that’s happened in European activism in a long time. NA’s ties to William Pierce and its use of the Life Rune symbol were always going to keep serious middle-class activists away, and the graphic design was often sloppy and unserious. Any lingering puritanical (literally) idea about the secondary or ‘insubstantial’ nature of images should be completely purged from consciousness. Corporations spend hundreds of millions of dollars on ideas for brand names, logo designs, ad campaigns, unified product design, etc. They rightfully regard it as a top priority (sometimes moreso than even product quality), and our side should as well. On that score, I would like to say how much I like the name ‘majority rights’, how much I love the little icon of Europe that greets me everytime I log on, and the perfectly chosen Botticelli. The site isn’t design-heavy, but it says what needs saying, and most importantly, does not indicate that the participants are lunatics - an all too common conclusion that is fairly drawn from word and image choice on many nationalist websites. I always regarded NV as a valuable news source, but Western Voices Worldwide seems to have incorporated all the useful functions of that site with a powerfully re-conceptualized brand identity. You can show it to friends and the graphics don’t scream ‘SKINHEAD’ as was the case in former times. I don’t know much about the the relationship between Virginia and the ‘parent corporation’, but the careful thought about issues of organization and image seem to me to be so important as to be celebration worthy. I’m also able to see silver linings here, too. First the Federal Government arrested Duke, for misallocation of funds - of which he was definitely guilty. Now they have taken a child molester from our ranks, resulting in vast improvements in one of the major Euro-American organizations. With enemies like this, who needs friends? They’re doing more to advance the state of Euro-American activism than we are. 3
Posted by more movement splits on Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:27 | # After Pierce died (*), and the insufficiencies of the new ruling triumvirate were glaringly obvious, certain people were assuring us that “the National Alliance is as strong as ever”, and that we need to stand by it and “help it grow.” When Roper broke away to form “White Revolution” (which I have heard has “split” into factions as well), amid a messy dispute, and some people raised this as evidence of a ship without a rudder, we were told, no, “the NA is running the show and better than ever.” When Strom split the voices of unbridled optimism became muter, and now I hear nothing about these topics from the original NA boosters, who, apparently, have left for greener pastures years ago. Of course, they never admitted, or will admit, that they were wrong - wrong about something which, as stated, was obvious at that time, and not only in hindsight. That doesn’t say much about their judgement, or their honesty. (*) That’s not to say that the group had any real utillty when Pierce was alive, but the personality cult around the man masked much. “The site isn’t design-heavy, but it says what needs saying, and most importantly, does not indicate that the participants are lunatics…” No, first you have to read the comments threads. “NA’s ties to William Pierce and its use of the Life Rune symbol were always going to keep serious middle-class activists away…” I’ll agree wholeheartedly with Wintermute here. Although I doubt that all the “spin offs” from NV are going to be able to escape “the legacy” in the long run. And, while I agree on the power and importance of imagery, its the ideology and quality of the people who count as well. The trouble is going to be, the middle class activists may join, but as soon as they start scratching below the surface, and “read the fine print”, they are going to start raising questions. Expect more “splitting off” of more “organizations” to come. 4
Posted by Al Ross on Mon, 26 Mar 2007 03:14 | # I read on one WN website that Kevin Strom unwittingly opened an email attachment containing child porn and that action was the beginning of the end. Regardless of Strom’s legal troubles, those of us who admire the work of the Prof Revilo Oliver owe a debt of gratitude to KS for helping to preserve the writings of the late American patriot. As wintermute noted, the wvwnews.net site is an improvement on its Nat Van predecessor but I wish the webmaster had emulated the David Duke website and incorporated an ‘email a friend’ function. 5
Posted by wintermute on Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:33 | # Although I doubt that all the “spin offs” from NV are going to be able to escape “the legacy” in the long run. more movement splits, In your opinion, is there anything that MR contributors can do to aid these two organizations in more fully decoupling themselves from “the legacy”, as you call it? NV really was the best pure news site for Whites on the web, questions of graphics and tone aside. I would earnestly hope, and would like to do what I can, to help these new splinter groups solidify their independance. Obviously, it’s something that they’ve been thinking about. To your mind, are there any glaring faults in their thinking, or are we dealing with matters of irredeemable characters here? The best and most effective WN site on the web, by default, is http://www.vdare.com 6
Posted by No Muds Just Right on Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:07 | # It’s exceedingly difficult to organize anything with jews monitoring all electronic communications. 7
Posted by No Muds Just Right on Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:13 | # Specifically, how can organizations scale with a hook-nose protruding between any two communicating individuals? Restricting activities to the legal doesn’t help; the feds in effect know of every personality difference and fracture in which they may drive a wedge. 8
Posted by GT on Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:35 | # “Specifically, how can organizations scale with a hook-nose protruding between any two communicating individuals?” 1. Restricting activities to the legal is an important first step, following not only the letter but the spirit of the law. 2. This would not be a military organization, neither should anyone infer that its purpose is to “train” future “leaders” for “the revolution.” No “Turner Diaries” for sale, here. 3. Complete corporate governance and financial transparency. Yes, that means elections and board meeting transcripts. 4. Replace reader comments, chat and online forums with “Letters to the Editor,” like VDARE. 5. Dissolve all attachment to cult-like symbols and behavior; e.g., non-Christian/non-American symbols, imagery, language (“our Volk”), etc. 6. Rather than a book club or a “greet, eat and retreat”-type emphasis the organization should focus on developing resources for Euro economic-community development, and encourage both legal and political participation. 7. The terms “European-American,” “White” and “Jew” should be politically defined and amenable to genetic interpretation, with Jews specifically excluded from the ranks. 9
Posted by GT on Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:08 | # On a sober note, I’ll eat a bowl of plain boiled broccoli if any web-initiated Euro-Am organization follows through with the above. Past experience with American nationalism has led me to believe that this tendency to shoot ourseves in the foot is too thoroughly entrenched. 10
Posted by No Muds Just Right on Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:19 | # GT, Those organizational best practices may increase the robustness against attack but do not address the communications interception problem. What if your deadly enemy knew everything about you? Exactly when and where you are asleep? Or pants down on the throne? An organization simply cannot survive this sort of constant, precision attack and a solution eludes me. Do you realize that a Jew at CIA headquarters can read yesterday’s communications intercepts of the top 50 American WNs on his lunch break? And then coordinate with infiltrators to maximize internal havoc? Is it a surprise no organization survives? 11
Posted by john on Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:01 | # I have to say I liked the daily updates for national vanguard. The reality is that as a european american the best access I have to news from Europe, Russia and other countries of interest are white nationalist sites. I was able to ignore the occasional “blast” at Jews which are ever present. I hope the wvnews will be able to take its place. (I also like the majority report site, although it is not updated quite enough right now - yeah lots of work.) I would be also be interested in any links to the David Duke incident that people think are accurate, as well as any links to the current problem with Mr. Strom. 12
Posted by James Bowery on Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:09 | # I’ve provided Majority Rights contributor edit access to about 20 people. I put it on MR so that there would be more of a labor pool available for updating it. The work involved isn’t that great—it just involves obtaining a URL for a story, coming up with a catchy headline and entering a contributor code to prove you have authorization. Optionally an image URL. I could continue to update it myself but then I may as well put up my own site and start advertising. 13
Posted by GT on Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:55 | # No Muds, Just Right, “Do you realize that a Jew at CIA headquarters can read yesterday’s communications intercepts of the top 50 American WNs on his lunch break? And then coordinate with infiltrators to maximize internal havoc? Is it a surprise no organization survives?” My present concern is with legal, “above-ground” organizations. They are not military and haven’t need for direct communication with organizations operating “below-ground.” Although we assume that legal organizations are monitored by Jews with assignments delegated to infiltrators, the fact that these organizations operate within the ‘spirit’ and framework of traditional American law and culture offers the Jews fewer opportunities for disruption. Military groups – skinheads are not military – operate on an entirely different level. They are less hierarchical and never led by individuals operating above-ground. The principle of communication between levels is, “never the twain shall meet.” Thus the legal is never merged with the illegal. 14
Posted by GT on Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:03 | # I should have written, “They haven’t need for direct communication with illegal organizations operating “below-ground.” 15
Posted by No Muds Just Right on Tue, 27 Mar 2007 04:43 | # Organizations are extremely susceptible to gossip and personal feuds. How one can fail to destroy an small group given the combination of realtime information supplied by Big Brother and government-funded infiltrators? Are organizations with open communications fundamentally viable in this arena? Homeland Security-proof encryption doesn’t exist. Then what? Runners carrying diplomatic pouches, which doesn’t scale easily or allow instantaneous/simultaneous communication? I’m at a loss. 16
Posted by James Bowery on Tue, 27 Mar 2007 06:42 | # I’m at a loss. Here’s an alternative: 4/15, 4/19, 12:00.0 Central Time If you publicize this, don’t act. If you act, act alone. 17
Posted by GT on Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:19 | # No Muds, Political organizations wage low-intensity war. In war, “freedom of speech” doesn’t exist. “Organizations are extremely susceptible to gossip and personal feuds.” Opportunities for gossip must be minimized; for example, no chat or forums. See #4, above. “How one can fail to destroy an small group given the combination of realtime information supplied by Big Brother and government-funded infiltrators?” By limiting and decisively moderating all venues of communication. “Are organizations with open communications fundamentally viable in this arena?” No. 18
Posted by Cladrastis on Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:34 | # Speaking of organizations… I just found the website of an organization called European Americans United that, politically, mirrors the sentiments of most of the folks on this site (i.e. it’s neither right nor left). It contains a very intelligent assessment of Euro-American identity, and I think it has a lot of potential. EAU appears very “mainstream” and, unlike some WN organizations, emphasizes dedication to an ethical standard. If you haven’t seen the site yet, check it out at http://www.europeanamericansunited.com 19
Posted by Question on Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:24 | # Some here consider me overly critical and “impossible to please”, so I’ll add to that characterization now, with respect to the EAU. Their statement on ethics is extremely vague. What do they consider to be “non-ethical” behavior? Presumably, gambling away followers’ money, or sex offences, would be considered grounds for dismissal, but what else? If “ethics” are so important, what are the precise ethical standards they require? Are the “leaders” held to a particularly high standard, and, if so, what is it? The group requires personal information to be given for their membership form. Shouldn’t the group then at least tell us, in their “about us” section, how the group came to be, and who are the major players behind the group? Looking at the site, it seems that the “fingerprints” of “National Vanguard” and the NA are there (and attempts to hide the “legacy” from opponents won’t work). From their own website, it seems to be a group that has sprung out of nowhere, unless I missed something in my intitial, cursory view. If so, they should make their organizational background more apparent. Their membership application has the requirement “of wholly European ancestry.” What then to make of the following alternative requirement in their constitution (and which comes straight from National Vanguard’s membership criteria): “Any person eighteen years of age or greater with no physically discernible admixture of non-European ancestry…” So, their constitution is at odds with their membership application - which is it? What are their standards of evaluation for “physically discernible admixture of non-European ancestry?” Since they do not require prospective members to submit photos (or DNA results) how is this evaluated, and by whom? Is it a self-evaluation? Can they give us an example of a celebrity who would be of “wholly European ancestry”, but who would not pass muster for their constitution because of “physically discernible admixture of non-European ancestry?” Does their constitution imply that non-Europeans who happen not to exhibit “physically discernible admixture of non-European ancestry”, would be welcome - or does the membership application trump the constitution? Or vice versa? So, we have a group that: b) refuses to tell the public information about is founding and its backing by various WN factions or leaders c) is inconsistent between its membership application and its constitution with respect to member criteria, with a constitution criteria that doesn’t provide information about the standards and evaluative tools used. Is this an improvement? 20
Posted by BGD on Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:40 | # According to Bill White (on a VNN post backed by some legal copy and paste) NV went down because Strom didn’t keep up the incorporation payments or similar.. That post appears to have hit the memory hole now though. If true and also with the way the wind seems to be blowing I assume the Revilo Oliver site will be closing down soon as well. If you want to keep the website content in the same format then download something like WinWSD WebSite Downloader 1.1 from Download.com gratis which will save all the contents and allow you to open it up offline, and possibly put it back up online one day or send it to someone who’ll continue it. That is apart from ownership and doesn’t KAS have some kind of ownership of RPO’s back catalogue or unpublished documents or similar? If NV was a product mainly of KAS then it’s fair to say it’s gone. But would he have been mainly responsible for it’s upkeep? I assume -and may well be wrong- that other hands kept the news items ticking over and so the experience gained might result in a new site..Then again. In past years I seem to remember noticing that New Nation News gleaned its news items from readers sending them in but also by setting up electronic news requests centrally (somehow?) using a range of terms like “race” “feminism” “black” etc. and then I assume once it had landed in the inbox he sifted further for that days most interesting postings. Rarely updated these days though. A job best suited for a couple of retired chaps and a wider audience sending in things. 21
Posted by Question on Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:48 | # “According to Bill White (on a VNN post backed by some legal copy and paste) NV went down because Strom didn’t keep up the incorporation payments or similar.” Perhaps that is true. A main point is that the same mistakes are being made over and over again, especially the error of a lack of introspection and critical thought. No one seems to think through the implications of their policies, or even try to make a single website internally consistent with respect to some of the most important issues. 22
Posted by BGD on Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:00 | # Some other regularly updated news-ish sites I scan on an almost daily basis, most of which will be known to most though I dare say not all… http://uk.altermedia.info/ 23
Posted by GT on Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:06 | # “No one seems to think through the implications of their policies, or even try to make a single website internally consistent with respect to some of the most important issues.” That’s right. Everything is copy and paste. No thought is given to anything but the continuation of the same failed policies from the past. Governance and financial openness? Forget it! American WN organizations exist to provide incomes for “leaders” who are not willing to expand the size of the pond, much less be accountable. 24
Posted by Me on Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:34 | # Yea the leader that is dieing and taking his last gasp always recommends at the last second a different Org that will end up being just as horrible as the last one and one that is nothing but a copy/paste of the former. It seams that the dream of places like NV is that the entire Western world wakes up overnight and storms into the Government palaces. 25
Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:03 | # Me (You!), There are only two ways of doing what must be done. Either one starts from the bottom, caring for oneself and one’s own and seeking to spread a healthy way of white life, or one organises to take the political route. The problem with (i) is its passivism in the face of Third World demographics and the machinations of the power elite. The problem with (ii) is its dire lack of a leadership of the highest intelligence and integrity (and, therefore, popularity and funding). The question at this point is: will (i) lead to (ii) quicker than (ii) will lead to (i)? 26
Posted by stunningly handsome on Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:04 | # http://www.takimag.com/blogs/article/the_southern_poverty_smearbund/ Gottfried claims he has found out that ~ one-third of American Renaissance readers are Jewish. I wonder if anyone has information that can support (or refute) this claim. If true, that would mean Jews are over-represented among AR’s readership by ten-fold, compared to their percentage of the population. Considering the liberal/racially leftist orientation of many Jews, one wonders who these readers are, and what their interest in AR really is. 27
Posted by James Bowery on Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:30 | # Any rational Jew who loved his race would have done everything they could to preserve the US’s makeup as it was upon entry to WW II. But they got greedy. You know, as in irrationally acquisitive. So they took from Americans their most prized possetion: Their posterity. Imagine that: Jews being irrationally acquisitive. Who’d a thunk it? 28
Posted by Rnl on Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:56 | # Question wrote: then to make of the following alternative requirement in their constitution (and which comes straight from National Vanguard’s membership criteria): “Any person eighteen years of age or greater with no physically discernible admixture of non-European ancestry…” So, their constitution is at odds with their membership application - which is it? I have a simple solution to this problem. _You_ will volunteer to examine all applicants. _You_ will fly down to visit all of them in their homes. _You_ will pay for DNA tests if you have any doubts about their whiteness. Unless you’re willing to do that, you should shut up. Looking at the site, it seems that the “fingerprints” of “National Vanguard” and the NA are there (and attempts to hide the “legacy” from opponents won’t work). I see nothing wrong with NV “fingerprints,” but since you do, you should be specific about your complaints. Are you complaining about NV’s message or are you complaining about NV’s packaging of the message? I assume the latter, or you wouldn’t be posting here. If that’s the case, instead of kvetching about the actual labor of serious men who care about their civilization, care far more than you do, you should provide constructive advice on how they can more successfully address mainstream Euro-Americans. Dreaming up faggoty little objections doesn’t constitute constructive advice. 29
Posted by Rnl on Wed, 28 Mar 2007 23:01 | # GT wrote: Everything is copy and paste. No thought is given to anything but the continuation of the same failed policies from the past. Governance and financial openness? Forget it! American WN organizations exist to provide incomes for “leaders” who are not willing to expand the size of the pond, much less be accountable. The idea that WN leaders profit from their political activism is itself copy and paste from VNNForum. It is a common complaint there and elsewhere, and it is remarkably stupid. If you want to make money from racial politics, start an anti-racist organization. White nationalism is not a lucrative career. Whatever complaints we may have of WN leaders, their alleged greed should be very low on the list. We should all hope that some day a substantial number of White activists will be able to make a reasonable living from pro-White politics. That day hasn’t yet arrived. When it does we’ll know we’re making progress. the same failed policies from the past Again, what are these failed policies? I don’t doubt that there must be a significant number, witness the ongoing Mexican invasion and our next war for Israel, but try to be specific. Don’t just stupidly whine about the work of others. There is a firm rule in WN politics: As soon as anyone actually does anything, a large contingent of assholes suddenly appears to complain about it, and the list of these moaning assholes will always be much larger than the activists they’re moaning about. *** Here, for what it’s worth, is the NA response to the end of National Vanguard; Von List is Erica, who perhaps can be forgiven for her crowing: Splinter Organization (from the NA) Formally Dissolves 30
Posted by GT on Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:32 | # For forty years WNism has nurtured failed policies and pathologies at the expense of growing the “movement.” That is because it is financially easier – not to mention, safer – for WN “leaders” with marginal incomes to fight among themselves for increased share of the “movement” than it is to increase the “movement’s” attractiveness to the mainstreamers leaning in our direction. I can’t help but laugh and cry when a WN “leader” fancies himself to be morally superior to a racialist paleo-conservative. A genuine WN movement can not be built around costumed entertainers or night-time lit distributions, or by limited liability corporations pretending to be something other than personality cults. The fact is sane, sympathetic, moral folks of reasonable intelligence will never buy this bullshit. 31
Posted by John on Thu, 29 Mar 2007 04:36 | # I have not been on the NV site in a several days, and was surprised at its closing. It was a great site for news. I see people commenting on here about “getting rid of the past symbols, talk, etc.” What is left. White-bread neo-con babble?? There are plenty of sites and radio stations for that kind of useless nonsense. I enjoyed the hard-hitting real news that I saw on NV. Yes, it is not for the averge brain-dead white American (or European). Too bad for them—I cannot be expected to save them from themselves. We all were reared in the same world. We can see the enemy. Why can’t they? If they cannot see the enemy now, glaring them in the face, what makes you think some God-damned Internet site is going to do to magically wake them up from their induced slumber? We need a news site for US, not the REST. Take whatever other actions you feel you have to….but the sites should be for us to communicate openly on any topic. Otherwise, interest is lost and the site WILL fail. That is why NV and Stormfront get (or got, in the case of NV) so much attention and views. I am tired of trying to win over the “average” man. Spartans did not need the weak masses to fight, only a dedicated few. Get some nuts!! Der Jaeger 18 32
Posted by Rnl on Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:38 | # GT wrote: For forty years WNism has nurtured failed policies ... What are these failed policies? You still haven’t explained. You believe that dressing up in nazi-era costumes is a mistake. So did National Vanguard. So does the NA for that matter. increase the “movement’s” attractiveness to the mainstreamers leaning in our direction. How? You’re great at making amorphous criticisms of what others do, but you seem short on serious suggestions for improvement. I make no claim that I know the answers. I don’t. I believed (and still believe) that NV was a significant step in the right direction, but if it wasn’t, then its critics - those like you who think they have spotted its errors - should have the courtesy of explaining clearly what should be done differently. “movement.” Scare-quoting _movement_ is foolish. If you want to emphasize that the movement is small, you don’t need to bother. Everyone knows that. To suggest that it doesn’t exist is wrong. 33
Posted by Rnl on Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:42 | # John wrote: Yes, it is not for the average brain-dead white American ... I am tired of trying to win over the “average” man. I think NV’s target audience was the average White American. There’s nothing to be gained by drawing a line between ourselves and everyone else. Most Whites don’t actually want what they’re getting, yet only a few are willing to do anything about it. That’s the overwhelming problem we face throughout the West. Like you, I thought NV did an excellent job. I’m surprised they weren’t more successful. 34
Posted by GT on Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:07 | # Fred, “They shouldn’t be put off the truth because some odd individuals espouse odd versions of it. ” There’s plenty of information about the problem, but no short or long-term solutions are explored – not even tentatively – except night-time literature drops and horizontal expulsion of the enemy once the economic SHTF. A race war has been “just around the corner” for 45 years. Meanwhile, life goes on and a living must be made for loved ones. Crossing one’s fingers and hoping for the best is better than jeopardizing their welfare by associating with odd individuals having no solutions other than the illegal. Few people will look at an empty cup or drink water from one that’s dirty. “Let them find their way to a version they consider normal.” That’s the point. Too many versions are not normal. MR is an exception. It is a clean cup partly full. “What’s keeping them?” You think they don’t look, Fred. I’ve known many that have at point one or another. They look, see oddness coupled with no solutions, and leave. 35
Posted by GT on Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:18 | # Rnl, “What are these failed policies? You still haven’t explained.” Scroll up the page and read. You’ll find some. Only the tip of the iceberg, though. “How? You’re great at making amorphous criticisms of what others do, but you seem short on serious suggestions for improvement.” Follow the instructions provided 5 lines above. “Scare-quoting _movement_ is foolish. If you want to emphasize that the movement is small, you don’t need to bother. Everyone knows that.” What movement? There is no movement, only fractious personality cults sustained through cyberspace. 36
Posted by Question on Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:34 | # “I have a simple solution to this problem. _You_ will volunteer to examine all applicants. _You_ will fly down to visit all of them in their homes. _You_ will pay for DNA tests if you have any doubts about their whiteness. Unless you’re willing to do that, you should shut up.” You have it completely backwards. I’m not the one doubting the “whiteness” of the applicants - it is the EAU themselves who bring up the topic in their “constitution.” So, unless the EAU is “willing to do” the effort of stating how they are going to evaluate the “physically discernible admixture of non-European ancestry…”, then they “should shut up.” You are criticizing me for pointing out something about the EAU that you yourself implicitely reject: doubting the “whiteness” of the applicants, without doing anything constructive about it. Refer your demands to the EAU leadership - whomever these unknown peoples be. As far as everything else goes, I agree with GT. 37
Posted by Rnl on Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:44 | # Question wrote: You have it completely backwards. No I don’t. You were looking for niggling sources of complaint, and you found one. You have discovered that a Euro-American organization that recruits some of its members online cannot determine whether all of them are White. You’re right. They can’t. You think your discovery is worth publicizing. There you’re wrong. It isn’t worth publicizing. It’s trivial. It’s significant only for congenital critics irritated at the constructive activity of their betters. The EAU wants Whites to join their organization. They probably don’t care whether an applicant’s grandfather was an octoroon, and they have no way of knowing even if they did care. Their target audience is the majority demographic of this country - people who look White because they are White, people without any “physically discernible admixture of non-European ancestry.” They’re not requesting racial purity. They’re only requesting that applicants be White. If you want to argue that Euro-American organizations should dump biological racialism, then that would constitute a serious piece of advice. I’m not sure it would be right, but it’s worth considering. Talk about racial ancestry scares some people. They start worrying whether their family tree is sufficiently pure. But dumping biological racialism would be tentative advice that I’ve suggested on your behalf. Everything you wrote on the alleged deficiencies of the EAU was worthless. it is the EAU themselves who bring up the topic in their “constitution.” Now we’re getting scare-quotes around _constitution_. The EAU constitution looks like a constitution. They call it their constitution. I’d say that it is their constitution. 38
Posted by Question on Sun, 01 Apr 2007 11:29 | # “If you want to argue that Euro-American organizations should dump biological racialism, then that would constitute a serious piece of advice.” I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying that they should not have as a requirement in their “constitution” something that they do not even bother elaborating on, or providing us with their “standards.” “They’re not requesting racial purity. They’re only requesting that applicants be White.” Really? How do you know, since they never tell us what they mean? “Talk about racial ancestry scares some people. They start worrying whether their family tree is sufficiently pure. But dumping biological racialism would be tentative advice that I’ve suggested on your behalf.” Do not suggest anything on my “behalf.” The WHOLE point of the WN endeavor is “biological racialism”, so why “dump” the whole point of the project? No, instead, any group should explicitely explain all of its membership criteria. For crying out loud here, the very definition of a “group” is that there is some division between those in and those out, any “organization” that cannot provide prospective members with a reasonably clear definition of that dividing line has no business soliciting membership. Explain to all of us why the requirement in the membership apllication form is insufficient. Why is that - something which can be at least geneaologically determined for the last several generations - not enough and why the added requirement? “Everything you wrote on the alleged deficiencies of the EAU was worthless.” No, it is fundamental. “The EAU wants Whites to join their organization.” Great. Can they then end the inconsistency on their website and tell us whether “white” is “of fully European ancestry”, or, “no physically discernible traces of non-European admixture”, both, or neither? Yes, by asking that they actually explain and defend their membership criteria, I’m being too picky about my “betters.” If so, and they are my “betters”, surely they can answer these questions, can they not? 39
Posted by Cladrastis on Sun, 01 Apr 2007 18:41 | # I think the EAU is taking a very mainstream approach to the issue of racial solidarity. They aren’t a bunch of Nordic supremacists. They believe in the solidarity of peoples of European extraction, who are quite phenotypically diverse across their geographical range (do Maltese, Englishmen, Greeks, Russians, and Finns all look the same? - of course not). I’m not sure exactly what the ethnic composition of Euro-America is, but it certainly includes people from across the Eurasian continent, and there is no reason to disenfranchise people b/c they fear they might be “impure”. As an aside, I seriously doubt that ALL modern-day European peoples could be considered racially pure; there are exceptions, such as Iceland and Belgium, but what about Hungary, Italy, Spain, Russia? There have been too many waves of migration from Central and Eastern Asia since the fall of Rome (think Huns, Mongol Hordes, Turks, Arabs, etc.). Not to mention, where’d all those Negro slaves in Portugal go? I’m not suggesting that most people in these countries are mudbloods, but the genes of foreigners are probably scattered diffusely across the population (or concentrated within certain populations). What we need now is POWER, and we’ll get it by organizing our people—all of them—and toppling the existing political/cultural glass house; the more people we have to do this, the easier it will be. The point is (and I think EAU would agree w/ me), organize people around phenotype now (which is a pretty good proxy for genotype anyway)—worry about genetic composition later. 40
Posted by Question on Sun, 01 Apr 2007 21:32 | # “The point is (and I think EAU would agree w/ me), organize people around phenotype now (which is a pretty good proxy for genotype anyway)—worry about genetic composition later.” First, the point is that the EAU does not even tell us what kind of phenotype they want us to “organize around”, other than it should not show “physically discernible signs of non-European admixture” - without of course telling us what these “signs” are. You people continue missing the point, which is not so much whether the EAU’s requirements about “physically discernible…” are right or wrong (another, separate issue), but: they are NOT even telling prospective members what these criteria are. Understand yet? Further, why are you conflating genetic considerations with “purity?” “Purity”, once they byword of the racialist right before the genetics era, is now co-opted as a leftist strawman argument; e.g.,: 1. Racial preservation depends on (absolute) racial purity Of course, EGI (the actual concept, not the talisman wielded around here) is based on relative genetic similarity and differences, not “purity”. Besides which, if you wish to be practical, all you need is the ancestry based approach of the membership application. Once again, the two questions that defendors of the EAU do not answer: “there are exceptions, such as Iceland and Belgium” Do you have evidence that Iceland and Belgium are “racially pure?” Or, is that a typical “movement” statement based on personal opinion? “They believe in the solidarity of peoples of European extraction, who are quite phenotypically diverse across their geographical range (do Maltese, Englishmen, Greeks, Russians, and Finns all look the same? - of course not). “ Very good, very good, so tell me: if this is so, why the extra requirement? Why not just say “people of wholly European ancestry?” I’ll ask the question once more: can the EAU provide some examples (e.g., of celebrities) of people who are of “wholly European descent”, BUT who have “physically discernible signs of non-European admixture?” This is an important point. Either: which is it? “which is a pretty good proxy for genotype anyway” Again: isn’t ancestry a “good proxy for genotype?” Why the extra requirement? 41
Posted by Question on Sun, 01 Apr 2007 21:42 | # ” but it certainly includes people from across the Eurasian continent” So, you think “Euro-Americans” includes people from Asia as well as Europe? “The point is (and I think EAU would agree w/ me), organize people around phenotype now (which is a pretty good proxy for genotype anyway)—worry about genetic composition later.” That worked very well in the Leo Felton and Anthony Pierpont cases, didn’t it? “the more people we have to do this, the easier it will be” Define guys like Colin Powell as “white” and your numbers will increase even more. Why not? Since the EAU doesn’t tell us what “physically discernible non-European admixture” is, why not Colin? Once again: Can they then end the inconsistency on their website and tell us whether “white” is “of fully European ancestry”, or, “no physically discernible traces of non-European admixture”, both, or neither? 42
Posted by JB on Mon, 02 Apr 2007 16:53 | # wintermute:
huh ? listen to that Send Them All Back http://www.natvan.com/internet-radio/ts/102701.mp3 or that Media-Driven law http://www.natvan.com/internet-radio/ts/020202.mp3 and tell me Pierce’s speeches have the effect of “scaring” middle class whites away from being involved in the cause. If the people you want joining in the struggle to preserve whites don’t like Pierce because he isn’t nice enough then you want to lower the bar so that O’Reilly and Limbaugh style c-ntservatives could perhaps consider becoming activists if they were confident that they wouldn’t take too much heat from the media. You want easily scared losers who will break at the tyniest pressure. I wasn’t conscious of the mess we were in when I first listened to WLP and I wasn’t afraid of what he had to say, I became much more curious and I tried to learn more. There wouldn’t be much of an intellectual basis for WN in America if Pierce had not been there more of Pierce’s broadcasts at : http://www.natvan.com/internet-radio/
what blasts ? I don’t recall reading juvenile blasts against jews in NVN. Besides if you’re afraid of naming the jew and I’m not talking VNN-style JeW NaMiNg here but simply explaining to whites that jews aren’t part of us and their actions and thoughts run contrary to our interests then what good will the website do ? We already have American Renaissance, we don’t need 10 clones of AmRen.
the last time I checked the indictment for Strom talked about a single child porn image file on his HD (pedophiles are notorious for having hundreds or thousands of pictures on their hard drives) plus two witnesses he allegedly intimidated. Elisha Strom came out and posted a contract between her and her husband on Stormfront that she says she and KAS signed and the contract says that KAS would have to meet with a psychologist two times a month in an effort to “cure” him of pedophilia. speaking of pedophilia listen to this ADV broadcast http://www.natvan.com/internet-radio/ts/020202.mp3 transcript here: http://www.natall.com/free-speech/fs0203a.html
if you’re a long time reader of VNN you know what kind of credibility White has and his notorious egocentrism. He has true stories mixed up with all kinds of phony of misleading articles just enough for him to say he’s telling truths that the WN organizations are hiding and to keep many people interested in what he will post next. He’s just another costumed neo-nazi except with more brains than the average.
Gottfried is a jew when that suits him and I’m not aware that AmRen knows precisly the race of all of their subscribers
as if those paleo-pussies did more than write letters to the editor and pray that things will get better someday. You don’t need an organization to do good things all by yourself or with a few friends. Take Alex Jones’ fans for example: they buy his DVDs and give them away, they distribute leaflets in daylight, organize demonstrations, etc. If white nationalists did something similar with pro-white material (DVD, mp3 CDs, news bulletins, etc.) we would already be in a better position. You would think that with all those mexicans taking over the country more whites would be doing something. If I lived in the US I would at least organize fundraising booths or fundraising events for the Minuteman Project or American Patrol in shopping malls or elsewhere and I would ask my mayor and the neighboring mayors to do what Hazleton mayor Lou Barletta did with his law against illegals. Such actions bring real life positive results and don’t require to openly express - mY gAwD - racist thoughts. Now show me some paleopussy who’s doing this. (before you object that lots of WN are not doing that either well I know that already so don’t bother) Fred Scrooby:
I think they’re afraid to be called racists, their respectability is more important than their country and their race. 43
Posted by GT on Mon, 02 Apr 2007 21:18 | # JB, The reason I laugh and cry when an American WN “leader” feigns moral superiority over a “paleopussy” is because his tolerance and promotion of cultism, automatic rejection of economic and political solutions at all levels, ill-defining and misrepresentation of organizational objectives/membership criteria, lack of governing and financial accountability, etc., all result in exactly the same thing – ZERO – in terms of growing our cause into a serious movement. For 40-50 years these policies of failure have been repeated time and again. Why is that? Not only is our growth stunted, but who can doubt that former WNs outnumber active WNs among the living? I certainly don’t. Rather than impugn the commitment and courage of those who leave the “movement” in disgust, I’d rather motivate future leaders into turning the situation around. I sincerely believe that visionary, unselfish, problem-solving leadership in this regard may prove inspirational to both fence-sitting “paleopussies” and “lemmings” alike. 44
Posted by GT on Mon, 02 Apr 2007 21:57 | # JB, “I think they’re afraid to be called racists, their respectability is more important than their country and their race.” Family welfare is more important than a cause led by incompetent “leaders.” People can’t change incompetent leadership, but they can take care of their families. “Respectability” is a condemnatory charge made by incompetent “leaders” who have refused to seriously consider, much less explore potential economic, social, and political solutions to the very real problem of being called ‘racist.’ 45
Posted by BGD on Mon, 02 Apr 2007 22:28 | # JB: I understand your Bill White criticisms but I do think he’s an interesting and engaging fellow, particularly some of his extended essays which are almost non existent these days. I do find his new found National Socialism curious, especially after some of his past criticisms of that.. Re the people behind the website of NV news, one of them comments here: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4034778&postcount=88 Outside of that the look and feel of the site they have developed in its place WV News doesn’t quite cut it. 46
Posted by GT on Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:29 | # “Re the people behind the website of NV news, one of them comments here: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4034778&postcount=88 Indeed, this is an improvement. Openly identifying the organization as an entirely legal, limited liability organization with constitutional provisions for the publication of quarterly financial statements and board members’ names should be made, given that this information is provided to the State and to the IRS anyway. 47
Posted by JB on Tue, 03 Apr 2007 03:00 | #
yeah I guess he could be entertaining if you have nothing better to do that read his website. We don’t need more essays or more books or more intellectual magazines, all that was needed to be written has been written. What we need to do is spread the word and do it in a manner which will produce results. I’m tired of the intellectual hair splitting and philosophical chattering 48
Posted by BGD on Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:58 | # JB: That may be true for you but I have to say the website introduced me to some areas I was unfamiliar with that thereafter I followed up on elsewhere such as his articles on traditionalist philosophy. I assume from the cutting tone of the reply that you have an animosity towards him and his site that may well be in part / whole justified, being aware of some of the history - I’m just giving one persons perspective. On the other point people aren’t just sitting around waiting to be enlisted and put into a uniform and marched to the frontline, they need an introduction to certain themes and arguments etc to be convinced. They can’t just root around in some library back room for primary sources. As you say people need to have the word spread to them and before his recent incarnation (where he seems to be writing more conscious propaganda rather than essays) his site did attract a lot of visits from the interested & curious. This whole thread (that you post on) is about other information sources, the quality of them, the philosophy behind them and so on. So there are still things to be discussed. Your point about doing and not endlessly discussing is an important one but I guess you are overstating because of a hostility to that individual.. Hey ho it was a small point in a thread about other stuff. 49
Posted by Q on Wed, 04 Apr 2007 15:14 | # “What if your deadly enemy knew everything about you? Exactly when and where you are asleep? Or pants down on the throne? An organization simply cannot survive this sort of constant, precision attack and a solution eludes me.” For safe web browsing To encrypt your email 50
Posted by JB on Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:08 | # BGD:
but it’s filled with gossip and half-truths and half-lies so its usefulness for the cause is very dubious (and let’s not even talk about the nazi costumes). I wouldn’t be proud of being the editor of overthrow dot com. and I wouldn’t be proud of being the editor of TAA either. We have the raise the bar higher. 51
Posted by BGD on Thu, 05 Apr 2007 00:40 | # JB, final word: I agree, I agree ...but, the one off essays kept me checking in. BW as the new Fuhrer of a new party is on the recruiting cycle and the current Overthrow updates are for propaganda value mainly and is a poor Goebbels. What I and I hope others valued were the occasional essays. 52
Posted by Michael on Fri, 06 Apr 2007 06:25 | # What we WN’s are really looking for is collective conciousness. The stupidest mestizos from Mexico, Guatamala, Ecuador etc have it and are proud. White people only lose it when they try to dilude themselves with bizarre religious cults or misguided egalitarianism. The germans found it and it so scared the ghost out of White Americans, and to hide themselves from fighting their social battles here and emulating them, they let the conflict rise to bloodshed against Germans who were aware of themselves and need to exist as a type and nation. Post a comment:
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Posted by James Bowery on Sun, 25 Mar 2007 16:23 | #
This is related to the child pornography accusations against Kevin Alfred Strom, who is now in prison awaiting trial. Given that the vast majority of the membership of National Vanguard considered child pornography to be a capital crime, it is rather devastating to have a their erstwhile leader even accused of it. Whether it is true or not, this points out the danger of centralized organizations as a means of defense.