Posted by der realist on Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:56 | #

“One wonders what opportunities at the level of national politics might then arise. “

For the Turks, many.  For Europeans, few if any, because we have no legitimate leaders.

Posted by NEC Watch on Sun, 22 Jul 2007 15:26 | #

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/07/20/280529.aspx?GT1=10150

Hmmm….

Posted by Furius on Sun, 22 Jul 2007 18:37 | #

Well the Turkey EU membership thing was never going to happen,  given that it would have required ratification from all EU states. Even more unlikely given that most of Eastern Europe is now in the EU.

Putin’s nationalism has taken Europe by surprise it seems. They really should not be surprised considering the amount of oil and gas Russia happens to be sitting on. Only a country run by fools would allow a small number of crooked businessmen to swallow all that up in the name of Free Markets.

Posted by Anon on Mon, 23 Jul 2007 00:07 | #

I look favorably on Russian nationalism.  I am also looking forward to Russia reasserting herself along her southern border.

Posted by a Finn on Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:58 | #

Well, if islamists gain in the elections, it makes it harder for them to gain access to Eu, thus it is good. On the other hand, then Turkey becomes more dangerous. The islamist prime minister said before his tenure in a speech: “For us the democracy is like a tram. We travel in it as far as we can get, and then we get off.”

Turkish nationalists don’t have much good consequences to Europe. They don’t serve as good enough example to European countries. They don’t care about Europe’s nationalists. They don’t help our cause in international politics. They are a cross breed between liberals, nationalists and asiatic despots and this mongrel’s sole purpose is to protect whatever liberalism can be protected in a country like Turkey.

Also, may I correct some commenters misconceptions about Putin. He sure looks good, doesn’t he. He has deposed the oligarch mafia crooks, and because of it international jews lament endlessly. He has implemented nationalist policies against muslim mafias controlling businesses. He has rejuvenated and modernized his state. He has given some indirect support to Russia’s nationalist. He has implemented somewhat more nationalist economic policies. Etc.

Yet, Putin is not a nationalist. He is an empire builder. He uses the nationalist as a street level law and order groups against the hostile minorities, who, if given freedom/democracy/liberalism, would eventually conquer Russia. No, he doesn’t want to establish a separate nation for Russians, he wants to force the minorities to be part of his international empire. Nationalists in Russia are not a true political force in Russia. They are mostly violent groups, who have no advanced political abilities. If need be, Putin uses police, army and Omon to enforce his view further.

Putin cares about foreign nationalist even less than his own. White homeland to empty Siberia? Dream on; means never, unless White nationalists have some use as a cannon fodder for his international empire. It might also be enlightening to look at the pictures of e.g. Putin’s youth groups, their international participants and miscegenated persons.

When Putin came to power I hoped for the best and prepared for the worst. My preparations didn’t go in vain. Russia has continually here and there harassed his neighbours; extorted them with e.g. energy, political pressure, economic matters; used Russian minorities as a political leverage inside foreign countries; increased their military presence along the borders of peaceful nations, invented imaginery threats in his neighbours and their tenuously related peoples in Russia, etc.

To give you a few concrete examples:

- The use of Russians and Russian mobs in Estonia as political extortion leverage in statue quarrel. Stopping their energy supply. The Putin’s youths, Nashis’ siege and invasion to Estonia’s embassy.

- Military build up along Finnish and Baltic borders.

- In fairly short time over ten “accidental” infringes of Finnish airspace.

-  Confiscating Finnish businesses / their lands or preventing their operations in Russia. Sometimes this happens because there was not bribes or enough bribes. Sometimes it is political extortion, like the confiscation of lands of Finnish firm in the aftermath of statue quarrel.

- The demands of increasing rights and political power to Russians in Baltic countries, and politicizing them to be part of Russia’s empire with their TV, newspapers, political organizations, churches etc.

- Demanding that Finnish Orthodox church stops giving religious services to Russians and that this job is given to Russia’s Orthodox church (In practice an apparatus of state). Goal; to politicize Russian minority in Finland, so that it could be better used as political leverage.

- Inventing imaginery threat of Finno-ugrics, which threatens to secede from Russia, to take natural resources in the areas in question and form a Finno-ugric empire. Deducting how widely and long this idea floated in Russia’s political scene and also that it was accepted by members of Putin’s political apparatus tells us that it had indirect countenance from top politicians. To give you picture how laughable this is:

* Finns and the Finno-ugrics in Russia are not an united group. Russia’s Finno-ugrics have mixed with Russians, mongolians, with people from Caucasia etc.

* Their culture is on constant life support. With some money a handful of actors, poets, dancers etc. here and there get an affirmative action job.

* Most of the Finno-ugrics in Russia identify with Russian culture. Their culture was already in ancient history different from us. With time and mixing, the difference has increased greatly.

* Whatever Russia’s Finno-ugric groups level of mixing of genes and culture, they don’t have unity inside them. They are dispersed and assimilated.

* They are peaceful people, who have not rebelled, when left to live a normal life.

* Comparison; There have been englishmen in history, who have moved to Brasilia, and mixed and melted to black and brown masses. If their ancestors are picked from the masses, do the English have unity with them?

- Extorting with with payments, customs duties, artificial bureaucratic obstacles, political pressure etc., against all mutual and international agreements Finland to move it’s precious businesses to Russia. The hardest pressure goes towards Finnish paper industry.

- Etc.

More can be expected in the future.

Russians are more foreign to you than most of you understand. The Mongols who ruled Russia so long planted the seeds and the foundation of Russia’s culture. Interaction with muslim world grew it. Now it has grown to strange asiatic culture. It has enough from Europe to give some surface familiarity. Inside there is ruthless, scheming and brutal soul, whose heart pumps just one sustaining thought, always has, always will: International empire, Power.

The nature of their soul is the reason they could win the jews and can protect themselves from their muslim neighbours, if they don’t let the muslims inside Russia to increase too much. Unfortunately this doesn’t make them automatically your friends.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:06 | #

“Russians are more foreign to you than most of you understand. The Mongols who ruled Russia so long planted the seeds and the foundation of Russia’s culture. Interaction with muslim world grew it. Now it has grown to strange asiatic culture. It has enough from Europe to give some surface familiarity. Inside there is ruthless, scheming and brutal soul, whose heart pumps just one sustaining thought, always has, always will: International empire, Power.  The nature of their soul is the reason they could win the jews and can protect themselves from their muslim neighbours, if they don’t let the muslims inside Russia to increase too much. Unfortunately this doesn’t make them automatically your friends.”  (—Finn)

CvH needs to read that.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:08 | #

(“win the Jews” in Finn’s comment means “beat the Jews,” “prevail over the Jews,” referring to Putin’s outmaneuvering and beating them in the Russian Oligarchs affair.)

Posted by Sam on Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:14 | #

I’m still betting on the Finns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä

The guy was a 1 man army.

Posted by Local Yokel on Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:28 | #

Gotta give a special mention to Austria and its neighbors in southern Alpine Germany in helping to thwart Turkey’s bid to join the EU.  I was there a year ago, in Linz, when Turkey was pressing most aggressively to join the European Union even as Europeans themselves were more aggressively pushing back. 

Austria was the first EU country to draw a strict line in the sand, saying that Turkey could never get EU approval from Vienna without a popular referendum from the Austrian people.  This was tantamount to a kiss of death, and both the Austrians and Turks knew it, since the sentiment of the Alpine peoples was firmly of one mind, summarized by the wonderfully firm German phrase: “Kein Eintritt!”  >90% of the Austrians bitterly opposed Turkish entry, and the Turks and the foolish EU bureaucrats were able to see the handwriting on the wall.  This is an illustrative tale of the relevance of past events, even centuries ago. 

The Austrians and their Alpine brethren in southern Germany have long memories of Turkish armies assaulting Vienna and the Bavarian lands, and being defeated by the combined forces of Austria and its allies.  They’re not about to passively allow what the invading Turks couldn’t actively achieve centuries ago.  To give credit where it’s due, the French also demanded a referendum (in which the French people were also overwhelmingly against Turkey joining the EU), while Cyprus stood steadfastly against Turkish entry.

All in all, this provides some heartening news that even in the over-bureaucratized European Union, there are mechanisms for the will of the European people to shine through and decide policy, and the resolve of the tough Austrian/Alpine German people shows that Europe still has some fight in it.

Sadly, this seems to be far less the case in other parts of the West.  When I was in Linz, I met a substantial number of Brits and Australians of all people, whose governments in London and Canberra with their fad for everything “multicultural” insist on diluting their own European peoples to minority status—Ozland, like the USA, is fast approaching White minority status, like South Africa, with the UK and Canada close behind.  The Brits and Aussies in Linz at least had no plans to ever return to their original countries. 

In fact, in a particularly cruel irony, even as Austria, Germany, Cyprus, even France have tightened the screws on Turkish immigration, both Britain and Australia have been all but advertising themselves as destinations for Turkish immigrants and have greatly increased the absolute and relative numbers of Turks living there.  There’s now an (increasingly larger) “little Istanbul” in Sydney, with more sprouting up in other cities.  Maybe not a problem in moderation but, as Turkey’s population grows, both Britain and Australia are being overwhelmed.  Thus even though the EU put its foot down against Turkish accession, Britain, Australia and even Canada seem more than willing to pick up the slack.

Posted by Rnl on Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:57 | #

Remarks by Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz

Istanbul, Turkey
July 14, 2002

[...]

There are certainly some Europeans who are open to Turkish membership in the European Union and wish to nurture Turkish progress on the Copenhagen criteria. But there are also Europeans who are inward looking, parochial and rejectionist. They fear competition from Turkey. They fear diversity. But, a European Union that includes Turkey will be a stronger, safer, and more richly diverse EU. In many ways, Turkish EU membership is as much a benefit to Europe as it would be to Turkey.

http://www.defenselink.mil/speeches/speech.aspx?speechid=268

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:19 | #

Regarding Rnl’s Wolfowitz quote:  Jews constantly pushing “diversity” are fighting a tribal war against Europeans, that’s all.  They’re perfectly aware “diversity” weakens.  Diversity is the last thing Zionist Paul Wolfowitz wants for the nation he identifies with and feels patriotism for, and doesn’t want to see weakened:  Israel.  His call for racial/ethnocultural “diversity” for Eurosphere nations is very simply an attack on them, specifically a Jewish attack.

Posted by Matra on Tue, 24 Jul 2007 05:46 | #

Diversity is the last thing Zionist Paul Wolfowitz wants for the nation he identifies with and feels patriotism for, and doesn’t want to see weakened:  Israel.

Speaking of Israeli diversity Israel is likely to deport a group of Sudanese refugees. At the link below is CBC’s The National. Broadcast on July 23 and it will presumably be available at this link until 11pm Eastern Standard Time on July 24 before it goes into the online archives.

In the piece on Sudanese refugees an Israeli human rights activist, a woman, actually says because Israel was built by refugees: “I don’t see how we can turn them down”. “Nation of Immigrants” meet “Nation of Refugees”.  But it is unlikely the pro-refugee human rightsers in Israel have got as many powerful backers as they do in the USA.

It starts from 22.14 into the broadcast and goes until 25.15.

http://www.cbc.ca/national/latestbroadcast.html

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Tue, 24 Jul 2007 06:09 | #

“But it is unlikely the pro-refugee human rightsers in Israel have got as many powerful backers as they do in the USA.”  (—Matra)

Right, somehow I don’t think Paul “Diversity Is Soooo Wonderful!” Wolfowitz is going to throw his weight behind the efforts of those Sudanese to stay in Israel. ........... Hey just call it a hunch ...

Posted by Matra on Tue, 24 Jul 2007 06:50 | #

namely the dealings of the EU in frustrating Turkey’s ascession

The European press is still pushing the line that allowing Turkey into the EU will speed up secularisation. As GW says this is not in our interests but leaving that aside for a second I’ve never understood how that was going to happen anyway. Urban cosmopolitans aren’t going to be the majority no matter how many rural people flee to the rich EU countries.  Europe doesn’t have enough jobs for them anyway. Few Turks living in rich secular Germany and Holland have melded into the mainstream. How many companies relocating to Turkey would it take to make the country middle class? Surely , surely no one expects Turkey to replicate Ireland’s Celtic Tiger. This “joining the EU will secularise Turkey” is another one of those phrases like “fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them at home” or “diversity is our strength”. It’s constantly repeated but never explained. So for now I’ll just assume it’s intended for popular consumption whilst the real agenda is to further dilute the European nations with millions of Turks.

One other upcoming issue, possibly involving Turkey, is Kosovo’s status. The big EU states, US, and Turkey want independence for the Serbian province. Russia opposes it. Merkel has warned the impatient Kosovo Albanians about a declaration of independence. On Monday the Kosovo president said there wouldn’t be a UDI but observers say if Russia continues to block international agreement on independence it may well happen. Presumably Turkey would go ahead and recognise it. Condi Rice has hinted that the US could follow suit: “We are committed to an independent Kosovo and we will get there one way or another.” (The US seems to attach great importance to its relationship with Turkey). That would create major divisions within the EU and NATO and with Russia.

Posted by a Finn on Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:25 | #

Response to Scrooby’s comments: It might be worthwhile to study how Putin came to power and beat his adversaries. Jewish oligarchs, who got their initial capital from American jews, were extremely rich, had well connected international and national networks, owned the most important businesses and medias, in essence chose the governments, ruled the politics and still Putin beat them. He must have had efficient, very large loyal, determined and at least partly secret networks, which had all kinds of large resources at their disposal. It is likely, that his rise to the top included crafty ploys. But I don’t know if enough information about his political career is available to tell significantly about these things.

To Sam: The link you have didn’t function, so I add one. We will always remember them:

http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/simohayha.asp

(Note; the two pictures on the top of the picture compilation, at the sides, are strecthed out of proportion)

Here is a link about Europe’s mosques’ owners and a solution proposal from the muslim, who wrote the last translated article in the second link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6909961.stm

http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD165007#_edn4#_edn4

Posted by Sam on Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:20 | #

A Finn,
My link to Wikipedia must have degraded. A fine example of what one motivated individual with a rifle can do.  He is required study in our unit (along with others, like Carlos Hathcock) and they are an inspiration.  We are not snipers either! 

You have also outlined quite well why I admire Putin (his plans for Finland and other innocent nations notwithstanding) and why he will most likely disappoint me as he is not a nationalist in the “live and let live” sense.  A shame really.

Posted by a Finn on Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:03 | #

To Sam: I wish you success in your studies.

We Russia’s neighbors work to influence Russia to be slightly friendlier. It might work, but we have to always prepare for the worst.

Posted by Fred Scrooby on Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:42 | #

“Jewish oligarchs, who got their initial capital from American jews, were extremely rich, had well connected international and national networks, owned the most important businesses and medias, in essence chose the governments, ruled the politics”  (—Finn)

Economic hegemony doesn’t just fall into the Jews’ hands:  there is an international Jewish mafia that never stops working hard to achieve it and has been out there, to all appearances, since the Roman Empire.  The way the Swiss civilians and Israeli civilians are constantly on a war footing, the Jews are constantly on a war footing, in the Jews’ case an economic war footing.  It’s part of their nationalism.