European Union: A Complete Waste of Time?

Posted by Kumiko Oumae on Sunday, 01 May 2016 11:55.

Brexit

Taking the Brexit position can lead to some really interesting conversations. I had the displeasure of being told that I was ‘essentially committing arson’ by supporting the OUT Campaign, as though somehow it is the OUT Campaign which is setting fire to a structure that has served its purpose very well up until now.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The European Union basically has already been set on fire by the very same people who purport to be defending it, all the OUT Campaign is doing is requesting that everyone should leave the building in an orderly fashion before the flames consume the entire structure.

It really was a noble project, but you just can’t trust people to behave themselves when given continental responsibilities. Was it ever possible to have a united Europe? Are we all simply relearning the lessons of the past in a new way? I open this thread for the purpose of getting some opinions. In retrospect was the European Project actually a complete waste of time?

Tags: British Politics, European Nationalism, European Union

Comments:

Posted by DanielS on Sun, 01 May 2016 13:28 | #

In our discussion about this post, you raised the aspect of how there was no reason for any of this. Europe was sitting pretty at the end of the cold war, in no danger and in position to wield its power more effectively than ever - but instead it went in the opposite direction.

Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 02 May 2016 10:09 | #

Even if for a moment one sets aside the grave and fundamental issues of sovereign nationhood, democratic expression, and peoplehood, and accepts in principle the benefit of reigning in the aggressive, conquest-related aspect of EGI, still one is left with the evidence that the aggressive and the conquering, while excised from member states, enspirits the new power structure.

The EU proves, as Kumiko says, that the imperialistic element cannot be eliminated merely by internationalism, but that internationalism itself becomes another conduit for it. The problem remains, then, how to resolve it ... how to live in peace; and this, it seems to me, is primarily a problem for peoples in their selection of leaders.

Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 03 May 2016 01:34 | #

To continue that line of argument, if the EU cannot exist to allow, as claimed, its national communities to live beside one another in peace but must, on the contrary, pacify those communities by obliteration of their distinctions as peoples, then it has missed its appointment with history and has no remaining function it can publicly acknowledge. What it does have, of course, is a function private to the denizens of the new power structure, complete with a loyalty to an entity alluded to somewhat darkly by the eminent Hungarian gentlemen in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TisxfLCAz8E

They are discussing the Jewish Money Power, of course.

Posted by EU police military unit being prepared on Tue, 03 May 2016 10:45 | #

Express, “EU military police carry out ‘extremely WORRYING’ civil unrest crisis training. A MILITARY police unit have carried out European Union-funded special training, ready to be deployed in the event of civil unrest or war,” 2 May 2016

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 04 May 2016 04:19 | #

Returning to the Brexit drama, who is going to win on June 23rd?

The polling says too close to call:

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9680

There are three EU polls in the Sunday papers.
An online Opinium poll for the Observer had topline figures of REMAIN 42%, LEAVE 41%, DON’T KNOW 14%. The one point lead for remain compares to a four point leave lead a month ago (tabs).
An online ORB poll for the Independent had topline figures of 50% REMAIN, 50% LEAVE without turnout, REMAIN 49%, LEAVE 51% once weighted for turnout (the previous ORB online poll a month ago had a break of Remain 51%, Leave 49%, but didn’t account for turnout) (tabs)
An online ICM poll in the Sun on Sunday had toplines of 43% REMAIN, 46% LEAVE, DON’T KNOW 11%. These are almost unchanged from the ICM poll in the week, which had figures of 44% remain and 46% leave.

... but the figures show a sustained shift to Leave over the 8 weeks of the campaign thus far. It is, of course, likely that there will be a late shift towards Remain as voters opt for the status quo, which is a common phenomenon, apparently. Certainly, the Remainers will put David Cameron front left and centre for the final push, because he is their only electoral asset. But it is hard to see what he can actually say that is different from the same old fear-mongering. The Remain campaign just doesn’t have the positives to offer voters. Fear, however, is demonstrably not getting the job done.

The Establishment Vote Leave campaign, meanwhile, has been shambolic and self-censoring. The Vote Leave big guns won’t talk meaningfully about immigration because they are members of a government which has increased it to record levels. As a result, the public’s main concern is not aired.

Vote Leave was, from the beginning, a pro-Tory, anti-UKIP campaign stitch-up; the fear being that UKIP would register major gains from campaigning for Brexit, even if that campaign was unsuccessful - just as the Scottish National Party did from the IndyRef. Vote Leave still refuses to cooperate with the failed GO campaigners, which is a disgrace. The just outcome would be that Leave wins and UKIP get the credit, just as the Tories fear.

But will Leave win on the day? There are, of course, seven weeks of campaigning left for an ISIL bomb to explode somewhere, and for more immigration crisis news to trickle in. But even without such exigencies it still feels in the gut like the longer the thing runs the more the voters will rebel against the Establishment and vote to leave. The bookies say it’s an easy Remain victory. They are offering odds of three to one. Remain voter apathy, meanwhile, looks like it is being under-estimated by the polling companies (who weight by two points to Leave for it). The Remain campaign is not looking to the politically engaged for its support. On-line newspaper polls show an enormous Leave advantage of 3 and even 4 to 1. The blogs are full of people saying they know hardly anybody socially or at work who is going to vote to Remain. To win, Remain has to motivate the masses of invisible “ordinary people”, especially the young; and they don’t vote much at all. It won’t do it through the Labour Party, which is mired in in-fighting, smears and counter-smears; and doesn’t really care about the EU anyway.

So ... Leave to win, and by a larger than expected margin: probably by a five point margin and maybe as much as ten points if a couple of bombs go off somewhere in the next few weeks. In any event, too much for the Establishment to drag its reluctant feet in the aftermath.

Posted by Captainchaos on Wed, 04 May 2016 09:49 | #

“...primarily a problem for peoples in their selection of leaders.”

This is more easily said than done. Take for instance Britain’s penchant for following fat queers down the road to ruin in the form of Nick ‘Fat Boy’ Griffin and Winston ‘Bathtub Foam Party’ Churchill. Churchill ushered in Lend-Lease and the arrival of niggers on Britain’s shores whilst Griffo flushed a decade’s worth of nationalist politics down the crapper by being an incompetent shithead.

Posted by anon on Sat, 07 May 2016 09:21 | #

Even if the EU started with good intentions - which I don’t believe - as soon as you create a permanent bureaucracy their loyalty will gradually switch to the institution itself and it will take on an agenda of its own.

So whatever the best solution is it won’t have a permanent bureaucracy.

“...primarily a problem for peoples in their selection of leaders.”

Currently leadership selection is based on education and interpersonal combat which selects for a combination of IQ and sociopathy.

However meritocracy in leadership terms is stewardship so what defines stewardship - not IQ and sociopathy, at least not alone - so decide what traits define stewardship and test for them all.

And as those traits will be partially genetic sooner or later we’ll be able to figure out what cluster of genes good stewards have.

(and good cops, good nurses, good surgeons etc)

Posted by Darkness on Sun, 08 May 2016 21:48 | #

Darkness, Darkness

Posted by Guessedworker on Sun, 08 May 2016 23:06 | #

Well, that blew away 45 years of cobwebs!

Posted by Why Washington fears Brexit on Sat, 21 May 2016 12:18 | #

Washington sees Brexit de-stabilizing Europe, threatening trade and military ties

BBC, “Why Washington is worried about Brexit”, 10 May 2016

Posted by Photographer David Baily now backs Brexit on Mon, 30 May 2016 15:29 | #

Independent, “Photographer David Bailey, once pro-EU, now backs Brexit”, 29 May 2016:

David Bailey has revealed he wants Britain to leave the European Union, more than 40 years after he featured on a celebrity-filled poster urging voters to stay in Europe.

In 1975 the renowned photographer joined artist Henry Moore, author JB Priestley and actress Janet Suzman on a poster of famous faces urging the country to “join them” in “voting yes” for Europe. But now Bailey says he has changed his mind and now wants Britain to leave the EU.

A spokeswoman for Britain’s most famous photographer said: “Mr Bailey would like you to know that he is for leaving the EU in June – Out will have his vote.”

Posted by All aboard the Brexit train on Tue, 31 May 2016 20:08 | #