Posted by notuswind on Wed, 26 May 2010 15:06 | #

GW,

After listening to Sunic’s interview of JB I think that you can safely skip any kind of question about JB’s metaphysical beliefs, spirituality, etc.  The topic was really exhausted in this interview and got a bit tedious at times.

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 26 May 2010 23:59 | #

notuswind,

I found the spiritual stuff rather interesting, though that might only be because it doesn’t move me and doesn’t contain any challenge.  It is already an historical artifact.

JB made one very telling point, I thought, about the left’s counter-intuitive fascination with the “primordial energy” that inhabits the ideas of “the far right”, by which he means, in the general sense, “the fascist”.  One wonders, though, whether Jonathan’s turn from activism to art as a function of his belief that culture is the true field of battle for the soul of “Western civilisation” is not itself a figure for a turning away from the battle rather than a turning to it.

Posted by Anonymous Nationalist on Thu, 27 May 2010 02:03 | #

Culture has been the battlefield for the soul of Western Civilisation for the last 50 odd years. The left has understood this, but not the nationalists. This is why in 2010, the left have the upperhand and the nationalists don’t. Art has the potential to be very powerful (remember the Danish cartoons?), but I don’t see the nationalists in the UK making much use of it. It’s a propaganda opportunity going missed.

You can get away with saying a lot more in art than you can in a political speech. Nationalists should be using art to push the boundaries of what is defined as acceptable, to chip away, undermine, subvert and mock the culture of the left.

Now I will copy and paste a comment from another blog:

I agree that it is important for there to be a healthy supply of high quality new nationalist art for propaganda purposes. Maybe this could be achieved by some sort of art competition or prize?

I would particularly like to see art created for the purpose of making liberals feel guilty for their support of race replacement. For example:

- Art that romantisises the white working class ( paintings of Lindsey oil refinery strikers, paintings of men in high viz jackets etc)

- Art that highlights all that is wrong with mass immigration, (paintings of 7/7, grim paintings of knife crimes in grubby take away joints, gun crimes, paintings of that mass gang stabbing outside a London train station recently etc)

- Art that demonises or pokes fun at the sneering Guardian reading London media class, politicians etc and would make the liberals feel ashamed to be part of that class of people when they look at such a painting.

- Art that makes the white liberals feel guilty for abandoning the white working class. (eg, a painting of a white liberal woman kneeling over and cooing over a newly adopted black baby. Meanwhile she has her back turned on her own white children who are toddlers and are crying out for their mother, with anguish on their faces. But the white mother isn’t listening, she can’t hear their cries, she has abandoned them for her exotic new plaything. One of the white abandoned toddlers crawls off to the far right of the painting where a man who looks vaguely like Nick Griffin is ready to give the abandoned white toddler a warm embrace)

- Art that serves as a warning to the middle class liberals who hate the WWC. The warning in the painting would convey the message: You won’t lose your skin colour, but you could lose your money and become one of the white working class that you so despise. So you’d better be nice to the white working class, because it could be you in the future - and if it was you, you wouldn’t want some sneering Guardian reading white liberal snob calling you “white trash chav scum”.

- Art that taps into the female instinct to protect her children. ( a painting of a white woman walking down an enriched street below a dark stormy cloudy sky. She clutches onto the hands of her 2 young white children, with a worried expression on her face as she walks down the London street as the only white surrounded by leering enrichers. The underlying message of the painting should be: Mothers, enrichment puts you and your children at risk, it threatens you, don’t support it)

Posted by cladrastis on Thu, 27 May 2010 04:27 | #

AN’s comment about pushing the boundaries through art is spot on (of course, one can push the boundaries in discourse as Alex Linder has done; however, through art it may be easier to claim one’s moral, intellectual, and aesthetic superiority).  Additionally, the war in which we find ourselves is largely symbolic in nature.  To assume power and create the changes that must be made, we have to hack into the symbols that inform the culture and redefine or replace them.  This can be accomplished linguistically or visually, and to perform such sorcery is the very nature of art and the occult.  Our enemies understand this well - just listen to Douglas Rushkoff.

As an aside, anyone who has been involved in even a modicum of activism knows that such work is immensely draining and that some people are not suited for it at all (Alinsky claimed organizers were born, not made).  People who are suited to be organizers possess an interpersonal warmth and charisma that I would not be surprised to discover Bowden lacks.  At any rate, Bowden’s becoming a political figure necessarily entails opportunity costs in his occult and intellectual pursuits - surely an unreasonable sacrifice for a political-intellectual camp that has produced a dearth of both for the last 60 years or so.

Posted by Wandrin on Thu, 27 May 2010 08:08 | #

Culture has been the battlefield for the soul of Western Civilisation for the last 50 odd years.

Agree. The political battle takes place inside a larger battle over what is orthodox and what is heresy. Heretical political success can make heresy orthodox but it’s an uphill struggle. Everything that can help undermine the dominant culture in advance is useful.

There was a post here about one of the UK’s race laws and how there was almost no political opposition to it. That’s because the will to resist had been undermined by the media years in advance. We don’t have the media power to magnify our efforts but almost everyone should be able to find at least one moment in every day when they can say something to undermine the dominant culture to someone. They have the advantage of big media whereas we have the advantage of not lying.

Posted by fellist on Thu, 27 May 2010 09:14 | #

It is already an historical artifact.

It clearly isn’t, and there’s no reason to suppose it ever will be.

Posted by fellist on Thu, 27 May 2010 09:18 | #

GW, get Bruce Charlton on MR Radio and discuss these ideas:

http://www.hedweb.com/bgcharlton/cosmology.html

Posted by Dan Dare on Thu, 27 May 2010 18:29 | #

I have just finished listening to this fascinating talk and wanted to make a couple of observations.

Bowden’s depiction of the manner in which the ‘enemy’ have attained the commanding heights of the national culture seemed to me to be largely spot-on, and he correctly highlights the underlying paradox in what he terms the ‘left-wing capitalism’ which characterises contemporary western society. he also talks of the importance of ‘inverting the cultural inversion’ which has taken plave in the last 40-50 years, but unfortunately does not seem to have formed any solid hypothesis as to why that inversion came about in the first place (no mention of ‘Hitler’s Revenge’).

I thought his comments about culture, and art especially, were particularly interesting. He seemed also very aware of the dichotomy that he himself represents. As he noted, his own art finds greater favour with left-wingers than with people at his own end of the political spectrum. There seems little doubt that if an elitist and authoritarian regime of the type that he appears to wish for were to accede to power, his own efforts might well be officially consigned to the margins as a form of decadent Enartete Kunst.

Posted by Wandrin on Fri, 28 May 2010 05:43 | #

I have just finished listening to this fascinating talk

Yes, very interesting, especially in the context of recent threads looking at the election and what to me feels like a vote glass ceiling.

I know personally that the number of people who say at some point that they’re thinking of voting BNP has gone up enormously over the last ten years and the reaction to someone saying it has changed enormously also. Yet there seems to be a completely different dynamic when it comes to actual votes. I think policy, leadership and the shinyness of the leaflets impacts what percentage of the glass ceiling vote you pick up but not the actual glass ceiling itself.

How bad things are acts as a force to push the ceiling up.

The multicult acts as a force pushing the ceiling down.

Undermining the dominant culture may not seem practical but it is.

Posted by Grassy McKnoll on Fri, 28 May 2010 11:13 | #

Thanks for the link, and thanks to Dr Sunic for the interview. Bowden is an interesting speaker.

Posted by Lee John Barnes on Fri, 28 May 2010 11:54 | #

I have long argued for a Nationalist New Art Movement to arise.

I have even asked for us to start competitions etc to start one.

I have even asked for someone to rent / loan us gallery space to do so.

Anyone here have any money to hire or access to a facility where we could show nationalist art ?

I have a series of works in idea form that I have worked on.

For example.

If I had the money I want to create an art installation with three large rucksacks are left on the floor in a large white room.

Inside each of the rucksacks are a tape recorder and speakers that are timed to play at the exact time of the 7/7 bombings and emit a recording of an explosion and screams.

At that exact same moment, all the walls of the installation are turned into a cinema screen that shows images of the day from a projector so that the person in the room is immersed in the sights and sounds of the day, in order to experience the events in a new way.

The rest of the time you just hear a ticking from inside the rucksacks.

Simple but effective.

Another one I would like to make is a massive crucifix with a full sized facsimilie of a white British worker on it, in full working gear, high viz jacket, construction hat and boots, who is crucified and hung around his neck a sign that simply says ‘Racist’.

Another is a series of American flags made from hundreds of bullet casings fired in Iraq and Afghanistan which are then painted in such as way to resemble the American flag.

Simple art forms but effective communicators to the masses.

So then who will start to work on a New Nationalist Art Movement, who will hire a gallery or loan us somewhere for a gallery and who will put up the money to help artists apply for funds from nationalists to undertake nationalist art projects ?

Over to you.

Posted by Ivan on Fri, 28 May 2010 15:02 | #

So then who will start to work on a New Nationalist Art Movement, who will hire a gallery or loan us somewhere for a gallery and who will put up the money to help artists apply for funds from nationalists to undertake nationalist art projects ?

Over to you. (- Lee John Barnes)

Excellent ideas, sir! Your insights into “contemporary Quantum Physics” were much better compared to your understanding of Art though.

The little money I have goes to financial support of Glenn Miller’s campaign for US Senate, so sadly I cannot back your brilliant Art project.

By the way, have you listened to Miller campaign ads aired on a host of Missouri radio stations:

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/download/miller/

“It’s the Jews, stupid!”  is my favorite one:

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/download/miller/GlennMiller-Spot1-02_25_2010.mp3

Posted by Lee John Barnes on Fri, 28 May 2010 20:16 | #

My art is the art of making love to the ladies.

My art, and joy, is their pleasure.

Posted by Ivan on Fri, 28 May 2010 21:25 | #

My art is the art of making love to the ladies.

My art, and joy, is their pleasure. (- Lee John Barnes)

That’s much better. Please restrict yourself to those activities for your own sake and for the sake of others. You may want to try your talents at a porn show like the one we have here in US: The Howard Stern Show. As you probably know, Howard Allan Stern, the self-proclaimed King of All Media, is a kike - there is no surprise there.

Posted by Ivan on Fri, 28 May 2010 21:32 | #

btw, he is the same guy whose ass was kicked by Glenn Miller:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlZ-xF0w3-M

Posted by Wandrin on Fri, 28 May 2010 21:43 | #

So then who will start to work on a New Nationalist Art Movement, who will hire a gallery or loan us somewhere for a gallery and who will put up the money to help artists apply for funds from nationalists to undertake nationalist art projects?

Probably need to start a little smaller.

For people artistically inclined i’d suggest home made videos and / or Situationist style images. Copy the left and subvert it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situationist_International

http://www.art-for-a-change.com/index.html

Example take something like http://www.art-for-a-change.com/Vallen/vdraw25.htm and make the guy on the ground a white rabbit and the the four cops “diverse”. The caption could be “globalization” at the top and “celebrate diversity” on the bottom.

If a person has ideas but not the artistic skill then they could hack together existing pictures with added captions like the picture of the little South African girl with the caption “Rainbow Nation”.

Situationist “art” can be slogans for writing on billboards or on the back seat of buses like “only white people are racist”.

National-Situationist Workers Party is what we need.

Posted by Wandrin on Fri, 28 May 2010 22:25 | #

Here’s a couple i just thought of.

Picture:

Caption: If we get the Israelis to build our border fence would it still be racist?

and

Picture:

Caption: Tea Party 2015?

Posted by Desmond Jones on Fri, 28 May 2010 23:49 | #

So then who will start to work on a New Nationalist Art Movement,

Register a charity, something like the National Trust for the Preservation of an English Ontology, and fund raise.

Posted by BGD on Sat, 29 May 2010 12:57 | #

It wasn’t immediately obvious having a quick look at the archives where best to post this so I’m putting it here.

(I’m not sure where the link to this article came from in my twenty odd open tabs as I butterfly around t’ internet so apol if linked from here originally)

Anyway, some interesting laying-out by Sailer in reviewing a recent book by David Willets. The review focuses on the books analysis of the different social histories of the English as opposed to others and the cultural implications of immigration on the future of this nation.

Coming from a mainstream source it’s interesting in its own right (albeit mostly known) but also offers a few conversational grenades to roll into debates with those that we are trying to persuade (or quieten).

David Willetts’ The Pinch: U.K. Cabinet Minister’s Discreet But Devastating Dissent On Immigration

Some quotes from SS referencing the book:

Following Cambridge anthropologist Alan Macfarlane, Willetts attributes this northwestern European model to the folkways of the ancient Germanic tribes. As Ben Franklin noted, “Britain was formerly the America of the Germans”. ...
“A small, simple family structure not driven by the need to pass on an inheritance or to sustain ties with brothers and cousins in a clan can be more personal, intense, and emotional—a clue to England’s Romantic tradition.”..
“Small families need civil society more”..
“individualism rather than tribalism, national patriotism rather than ethnic loyalty, meritocracy rather than nepotism, nuclear families rather than extended clans, law and fair play rather than privilege, corporations of strangers rather than mafias of relatives, and true love rather than the arranged marriages necessary to keep ethnic categories clear-cut.”..
“Baby boomers had tight immigration controls when they were entering the jobs market but then relaxed them when they wanted more workers coming along behind. … [Immigration] increases returns to capital and holds wages down so it rewards property-owners. It is younger people who have lost out.”...
“The crucial proposition therefore underlying the economics of immigration in Britain is as follows. The larger the proportion of earnings consumed by housing costs, the greater the benefits of under-housing and the greater the price advantage of immigrant labour. It was not despite the high cost of housing that immigrants came to the house price hotspots in Britain to make a living—it was because of them.”

It also lightly covers how the different ethnic minority social structures on the rise in this country (and elsewhere) will have profound implications for the type of “democracy” and civil society that we live under.

Obviously much of this has been discussed here in more depth but the source itself is helpful in trying to get ‘progressive’ types to peer both under the hood and into the future and evaluate the sort of life they have created for their descendants in that the future of the type of political democracy we have now (and its associated social structures) is less than certain.

Posted by Ivan on Sat, 29 May 2010 15:27 | #

Ivan, you described yourself before as a rich man, who was willing to hire Soren as an editor.  Which is it?  In either case, good on you for supporting Mr. Miller’s campaign.  (-Dasein)

Dasein, you keep disappointing me, brother. I’ve been just sarcastic about Soren’s obsession with grammar and punctuation marks. I’m not a rich man.

Would you take my word for it if I’ve said that Ivan is not a person - it’s a group of people with clear agenda?

It’s good to know though that readers pay attention and keep track of what have been said by Ivan.

Posted by Anonymous Nationalist on Sat, 29 May 2010 21:12 | #

Lee John Barnes -

So then who will start to work on a New Nationalist Art Movement, who will hire a gallery or loan us somewhere for a gallery and who will put up the money to help artists apply for funds from nationalists to undertake nationalist art projects ?

Would there be any way of getting EU / central government / Lottery money to fund such a thing? They like giving money to art projects don’t they? Maybe they wouldn’t want to give money to a nationalist art project, but a carefully chosen left wing spin of words could be used to make them think they are funding the usual left wing tripe.

Wouldn’t it be delightful to see a hysterical article in the Guardian with a headline shrieking “BNP using tax payers money to fund ‘odious’ ‘vile’ art project!” ?

The BNP response to this could simply be, “Art is meant to be challenging. Come and have a look and challenge your pre-conceived notions about the benefits of mass immigration”

To get the most from it, the art project could be combined with local community activism to make it a community art project. Art generated by underprivileged whites from deprived white communities. It could be used as a central activity to bring a community together. An activity designed to increase ethnocentrism in it’s participants.

Where would be a good location for a Nationalist Art Exhibition? Oxford University would be a good location or a traveling nationalist art exhibition that does a tour of all the top universities. Let students around the country have the opportunity to experience challenging art. It would provide a location for like minded students to gather and discuss the issues raised by nationalist art. It may even encourage some students to start developing their own art that challenges the establishment orthodoxy. Protesters like UAF might want to protest outside this traveling art exhibition and thus giving it much needed publicity. But once visitors are inside the art exhibition, they will be pleasantly surprised to see that it isn’t some “art exhibition of hate” that the UAF said it would be. There are no swastikas, pictures of Hitler or crude works of art demonising blacks and Jews. Instead what they find is refreshing, thought provoking works of art on the current political climate. Works of art which stimulates their minds into thinking thoughts that they’ve never thought before. Once they’ve seen how reasonable, stimulating and intelligent the BNP art exhibition is, and how unreasonable and thuggish the UAF protesters are outside, they will change their attitudes towards the BNP. When they leave Oxford University and graduate into top flight jobs in the media, they will take these new attitudes towards the BNP with them and these new attitudes would eventually permeate throughout society.

Here’s an idea for a possible exhibit:

Moral Compass Exhibit

The moral compass exhibit would be comprised of 4 rooms each containing “the moral compass” of the participants. The purpose of the exhibit would be to make the participants think about where their morals come from as well as experiencing freedoms and restrictions to morals.

Room 1, The Church
This room would contain a motorised circular platform in the centre of the room that represents the moral compass of the participants. Participants sit on chairs on this platform all facing the same direction. The platform is fenced in and locked, so the participants can’t get out of it. The motorised platform begins it’s journey, rotating in a clockwise direction, pointing the participants in the direction of morals. On the walls of the room, images of the insides of Churches are displayed and a loud speaker plays the sound of a vicar reading out moral passages from the Bible. The motorised movement of the compass should be designed to frustrate the participants and make them feel trapped by being slow and randomly stopping and reversing direction occasionally.  This room symbolises how in the past, people had a uniform moral compass that was set by the Church.

Room 2, The Media
After the first ride, the participants move to next room which goes forward in time to the media age. This room is exactly the same as the previous one except this time the motorised platform moves in the opposite direction ie anti-clockwise. This room sybolises how in the media age, people have a uniform moral compass that is set by the media. A moral compass that takes them in the opposite direction to the church. Like before, the platform should make the participants feel trapped and frustrated.
Images of the media are projected onto the walls of the room.  Things like the BBC1 idents that get shown before the programmes they do on the BNP with the voiceover giving the BBC moral lesson “Viewers may find the content of this programme offensive”. Other projections showing scenes from soap operas of gay kisses, BBC newsreaders reading news and other media moral lessons with the sound of pompous media voices on a loudspeaker.
The purpose of this room is to show the participants how their moral compass has been set by the media not by themselves.

Room 3, Childhood and Political Correctness
The 3rd room would be different to the previous two. The moral compass in this room would be free wheeling. The participants can move it themselves in any direction they want. It would symbolise free speech, possibly under a future BNP government. The moral compass in this room would take the form of a children’s playground roundabout. Participants would be free to move wherever they want. They would be regressed back to childhood to re-experience the freedoms of childhood and being able to say whatever they want in the school playground. The loudspeaker would play the sound of children playing in a playground and the noise of birds tweeting. The walls would be have images of blue skies and meadows on them.

Just as the participants are enjoying the freedoms, all of a sudden things would change. The roundabout would be electronically locked and frozen in position. Rigid and unmovable. This would sybolise the arrival of political correctness.  The loudspeaker would change to the sound of an authoritarian Jacqui Smith type voice, making accusations of racism, threatening to put children on “hate lists”, lecturing them on what can and can’t be said. The walls would change to grey sullen images of children with their mouths taped over and hands tied. The purpose of this room would be to show how political correctness is loss of innocence, loss of childhood, loss of freedom, loss of hope.

Room 4, Multiculturalism
The last room would contain multiple children’s roundabouts decorated in various ethnic styles such as Indian, Chinese, African, Islamic etc but no roundabout to represent the British in order to emphasise represent race replacement. The roundabouts would be closely packed into the room - so close to each other that they wouldn’t actually be able to rotate freely. Hexagonal shaped roundabouts that would bash up against each other when you try to rotate them. So the roundabouts would be stuck, not able to rotate at all. They would symbolise Britain under multiculturalism. No room to rotate the roundabouts, no room to think freely. The walls would have images of security cameras, police and assorted ethnic strife projected onto them, such as 7/7, Danish cartoon protests etc. This purpose of this room would be to symbolise the phrase “Freedom had to die so diversity might live”.

Posted by Ivan on Mon, 31 May 2010 22:53 | #

Here is something that could be of interest to numerous admirers of Jonathan Bowden’s art at Majorityrights:

http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=111685

Posted by notuswind on Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:56 | #

GW,

After listening to this interview one more time I believe that I have a much better understanding of where JB was coming from on a number of different points.

In my opinion, where the conversation really starts to get esoteric is when JB mentions his interest in Hobbes, who advanced a theory of statecraft that was very modern for its time and conceived of society in anthropomorphic terms.  JB goes on to say how he thinks that in Western society there has been a profound splitting between the intellectual class (the Hobbesian head of our society) and the rest of the Western body, where the intellectual class has decided to talk amongst themselves and completely ignore the societal body from which they came.  He proceeds to suggest that the only ideas that have the power to fix the break and reincorporate the Western head with its body are truths of an emotional-spiritual-primordial-artistic nature.  And that culture struggle to him means working with these forms in such a way as to affect Western society at a subconscious level where ideas have their most power.

Now, if this interpretation is correct than JB’s strategy and thinking is completely at variance with your own at MR.  If my understanding is correct, you would like to develop an intellectual philosophy that could advance right-wing politics in England at a very conscious level whereas JB would rather work with cultural forms that are intended to operate at a subconscious level in order to heal the break between the Western head and the Western body.

Anyway, sorry for adding my commentary to such an old thread.

I found the spiritual stuff rather interesting, though that might only be because it doesn’t move me and doesn’t contain any challenge.

Neither does it challenge me, JB’s understanding of spiritual matters is extremely primitive as he approaches them not from within but from without.  His political thought has led him to the discovery of the importance of spiritual truth but he still doesn’t understand what it all means because to do so would very require him to step outside the spirit of our age in a way that he has yet to do, I think.

JB made one very telling point, I thought, about the left’s counter-intuitive fascination with the “primordial energy” that inhabits the ideas of “the far right”, by which he means, in the general sense, “the fascist”.

See my hermeneutical exercise above.

Posted by Guessedworker on Fri, 02 Jul 2010 23:26 | #

notuswind,

Ontologues rely on the most fundamental truth and are bound thereafter to let the pieces fall where they may.  By contrast, JB is, at least in part, a utilitarian, like de Benoist, trying to make a cultural revolution because that is what worked for the other side.  Some of this may be a reaction to the inadmissability of palingeneticism.  We shall see.

I’ve got to call JB and fix a time for the recording.  I’m worried about the sound quality because he will be using a land-line.  But there is nothing more I can do on the technical front, and I’ve just got to go with the software I’ve already got.

Posted by notuswind on Sat, 03 Jul 2010 00:52 | #

GW,

Ontologues rely on the most fundamental truth and are bound thereafter to let the pieces fall where they may.  By contrast, JB is, at least in part, a utilitarian, like de Benoist, trying to make a cultural revolution because that is what worked for the other side.

I am embarrassed to say I never thought of that.

I’ve got to call JB and fix a time for the recording.  I’m worried about the sound quality because he will be using a land-line.  But there is nothing more I can do on the technical front, and I’ve just got to go with the software I’ve already got.

Good luck!