The eternal nation in its rural hearth

Posted by Guessedworker on Friday, 22 October 2010 10:55.

Science’s capacity to explain the “what” but not the “why” has excelled itself again in a new study of population genetics reported under the title Genes predict village of origin in rural Europe.  It is published in the European Journal of Human Genetics.  Coordinated across ten European institutions, the study is, in fact, focussed on three different area of bucolic Europe, as the abstract explains:

The genetic structure of human populations is important in population genetics, forensics and medicine. Using genome-wide scans and individuals with all four grandparents born in the same settlement, we here demonstrate remarkable geographical structure across 8–30?km in three different parts of rural Europe. After excluding close kin and inbreeding, village of origin could still be predicted correctly on the basis of genetic data for 89–100% of individuals.

All four grandparents being born in the same settlement is probably about as tight as one could reasonably expect to frame an investigation into rural population structure.  The result - that up to 100% of study subjects could be gene-mapped to within 8km of their familial villages - reveals not merely an increasingly refined technical capacity on the part of the researchers, but a remarkable portrait of European blood and soil.

I don’t think I would be presuming too much upon the study’s methodology to say that the portrait endures because, while a certain number of individuals move away and the rural population as a whole is declining, others move into these areas far less frequently.  It is easy to fall into the trap of seeing a wider picture of conflict between the modernity, dynamism and cosmopolitanism of urban life - a life which is heterogeneous and destabilising in character - and their opposites among the fields of green and gold.  It is worth remembering that, irrespective of whether one is born to town or country, in a healthy, monist society everyone’s forefathers will have worked the land in all weathers with forks, graips, shovels, hedge knives and hoes, brewed the beer, baked the bread and butchered the livestock, or milled flour, made pottery, worked iron, and taken up arms alongside his brothers when bidden.  Timelessness underpins everything.  And while science cannot tell us why the genes of the people who did all this, and which we all carry today, should be preserved and not lost to Neo-Marxism, globalism, Christian universalism and Jewish millenarianism, yet we are them, we serve them, and in the turn to our selfhood they are no longer a mystery or a mere portrait.



Comments:


1

Posted by Leon Haller on Fri, 22 Oct 2010 13:59 | #

Interesting thoughts, beautifully presented.

Of course, you understand that Christiam universalism has nothing in common with globalism, or the reduction of man to the status of proletarian cattle characteristic of Marxist aspirations. The “universalism” of Christianity merely acknowledges that all men are creatures begotten of God, and as such, are invited to partake of salvation through acceptance of Christ. “My kingdom is not of this world”, Christ informed us, and loyalty to Him in no way obviates loyalty to kin and nation (whatever the various nominal or “theistic Marxist” Christians plaguing the various denominations may state to the contrary) - as millenia of Christians before our bizarrely fallen times have implicitly understood.


2

Posted by Notus Wind on Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:57 | #

GW: Timelessness underpins everything.

Yes, I very much like the way you phrased this.

I’ve recently warmed to the view that right and left, as political orientations, are not about ideology per se but about how we see respond to our past in shaping our future.  On this view, the rightward end of the spectrum tends to shape the future with the forms of the past while the leftward end tends to reject the forms of the past and shape the future with new forms.  On one extreme we never advance beyond caves and grass huts while on the other extreme we lose all sense of rootedness and our society descends into chaos.

I’m not sure how relevant these musings are to your entry but I thought I’d share them.


3

Posted by Sam Davidson on Fri, 22 Oct 2010 15:01 | #

Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.” (Matthew 10:35)

But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” (Matthew 12:47)

And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Behold! My mother and My brethren.” (Matthew 12:48)

If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, yes even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

...anyone who does not renounce all he has cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:33)


4

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 22 Oct 2010 15:17 | #

“My kingdom is not of this world”, Christ informed us, and loyalty to Him in no way obviates loyalty to kin and nation

Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.” (Matthew 10:35)

But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” (Matthew 12:47)

And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Behold! My mother and My brethren.” (Matthew 12:48)

If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, yes even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

...anyone who does not renounce all he has cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:33)

You can’t have it both ways.


5

Posted by Guessedworker on Fri, 22 Oct 2010 15:37 | #

Notus,

I would like to think we are capable of transcending both extremes.  Nationalism should always do this and even the socialism of National Socialism was a gesture in this direction.  Both poles of nationalism - the ontological and the teleological - tend to the unity of the blood over the abstractions of right- and left-liberalism, but the ontological pole does it best, imo.

Leon,

I am increasingly doubtful of the worth of preserving the Christian faith-form, save that the faith instinct must adhere to a form, and these things don’t come into being like fiat money.


6

Posted by Notus Wind on Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:26 | #

GW,

I agree with you, I’m just sharing an observation.  If nothing else, Truth certainly transcends the political axis.

My feeling is that on this understanding of left and right we’re all moderates, desiring to hold onto what’s beneficial for our people and leaving behind what’s not.  For example, we all want to preserve the biological form of our Western past but at the same time each of us also wants to do away with various cultural forms that are also in our past, which continues to be a source of much disagreement, but I don’t think anyone around here wants to slavishly recreate the past.  On the other hand, the Western mainstream is on the extreme leftward end of this spectrum, as it always repudiates the heritage of the past.


7

Posted by Frank on Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:31 | #

That’s… beautiful. You brought a tear to my eye. It’s a shame how brain drain hits rural areas so fiercely.

I liked how in the Last Samurai movie, Cruise’s katana had inscribed “I belong to the warrior, in who the old ways have joined the new.”

I’m not going to nitpick on religion here.


8

Posted by Frank on Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:12 | #

Inertia won’t be enough to preserve the rural though. When outsiders are attracted by something within the community (likely to wealth), it will need a foundation to stand on to endure / repel the invasion.


9

Posted by Quotable quotes on Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:24 | #

“Big Von and Soren Renner querying each other about the metaphysics of Heidegger? BORING. IRRELEVANT.”

“Reading this effete horse shit makes me want buy a six pack, get in the nearest Ford F150, and go ride dirt roads.”

Hunter Wallace on Majority Rights


10

Posted by tc on Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:38 | #

It is these remarks, that I keep coming back for Brother.

You and I may disagree, may have differing intellects, but our genes(instincts) carry us along parallel/similar paths…or for those of us, more spiritually inclined:


...have soul.

I will have to aim more carefully…:-)


11

Posted by Leon Haller on Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:17 | #

The Larger Question, danced around but insufficiently honed: What is it exactly that “you people” want, and why? National (proletarian) Collectivism, Aryan Aristocracy, a recrudesced national past (and which one), maintenance of existing social and political forms and structures sans non-whites, etc?

I affiliate with white nationalism for three reasons. First, and more idealistically, I wish to preserve Western Civilization, which I find in the High Culture as well as superior moral values of the historic European ethnocultures/nations. I further recognize that biology undergirds social and cultural evolution, and I believe, as a function of historical study as well as personal (and vicarious) observation, that only genetic (racial) continuity will ensure cultural continuity (’culture’ in both senses of the word: mental (intellectual and artistic) production, and folkways). Only whites will preserve Western culture in perpetuity. I am, in other words, nothing more than a true conservative. There are other true conservatives sprinkled throughout the West today, but most are cowards when it comes to acknowledging the ineradicable relation between conservatism and racial preservation, understood both genetically (blood purity) and demographically (numerical preponderance).

Second, it is in my long-term personal interest as a white man to fight against my racial dispossession and disempowerment. The presence of non-whites directly harms me in numerous ways, from fear of criminal victimization, to wealth transfers (both in taxes and professional setbacks due to “positive” discrimination), to non-white seduction and (for me) ruination of white females, to anxiety about all these negative effects of racial diversification intensifying in the future. ‘Diversity’ brings no benefit to me, but many harms.

Finally, I am a man of moral integrity, as well as personal honor (a Christian, if somewhat lackadaisical and heterodox, and a Roman), and thus find unendingly nauseating, and personally infuriating, the lies and behaviors associated with the Cult of Diversity, both the unearned swagger of arrogant and abrasive minorities, and the pathetic pusillanimity of whites in the face of it. The Christian in me morally rebels against the untruths of the Cult, while the Roman in me wants to confront and destroy it.

I’d enjoy hearing why others identify with WN, and what they understand by it (I have an ulterior reason for posting this, having to do with what I take to be many philosophical and strategic errors swirling about the WN blogsphere, including here).


12

Posted by Leon Haller on Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:22 | #

I don’t understand. I had a longish response, tried to post it (the word was “13boys”), and somehow re-posted a comment from another thread.

I am really bummed out. How did this happen? I can’t find my original comment!


13

Posted by Leon Haller on Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:25 | #

I cannot believe I lost that comment. What a lesson! Break up long comments, post paragraph by paragraph!

What a waste of time. Fuck it, time to sleep.


14

Posted by Leon Haller on Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:33 | #

The one advantage of typewriters: at least you never lost your product with one or two incorrect keystrokes!!!

That’s really a turnoff. You know, I only tried to copy my text because of occasional problems with posting long comments in the past, which somehow got timed out, and wouldn’t post.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Sat, 23 Oct 2010 14:19 | #

On some browsers ExpressionEngine eats thoughtful posts.  Chrome caches them OK.


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Posted by Eco-Fascism as Western Salvation? on Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:28 | #

‘Groundbreaking’ studies like this were well known and discussed decades ago.  For instance, the German National Socialist Richard Walther Darré, who was the Reich Minister of Food and Agriculture from 1933 to 1942, wrote a book entitled Das Bauerntum als Lebensquell der nordischen Rasse [The Peasantry as Life Source of the Nordic Race] back in 1928.

In fact, a lot of the ideas of the current ‘green movement’ were formulated and put in to practice by various high ranking National Socialists - especially Darré who is sometimes considered the first ‘green’ politician - long before the contemporary fad was even a blip on the Anglo-American radar; read the good book Blood and Soil: Richard Walther Darré and Hitler’s “Green Party” by Anna Bramwell.

And the Norwegian Nobel Prize winning writer and National Socialist ‘sympathizer’ Knut Hamsun who wrote books like Growth of the Soil (1917) about various blood and soil issues.

Also, can the ‘eternal nation on its rural hearth’ still be said to exist once, as Spengler wrote about in many works and has definitely come to pass, the countryside largely empties of people as culture progresses to civilization with the rise of cities?  And with modern White urbanites largely failing to breed at replacement, with the rural folk long since gone to live in the cities as just stated, what will become of The West?

“But this vulgar luxury of great cities - little work, much money, and still more
amusement - exercised a fatal influence upon the hard-working and simple men of
the open country. They learnt to know of needs of which their fathers would never
have let themselves dream. Self-denial is hard when one has the opposite before
one. The flight from the land set in: first the farm-hands and maids went, then the
farmers’ sons, and in the end whole families who did not know whether or how
they could hold the paternal heritage in the face of all this distortion of economic
life. It has been the same in all Cultures at that stage. There is no truth in the
belief that Italy became depopulated after Hannibal’s time by the large landed
estates. It was the “panem et circenses” of cosmopolitan Rome that did it, and it
was only when the land had lost its population and became worthless that the
farming of large estates by means of slaves developed.  Otherwise it would
have become a wilderness. The depopulation of the villages began in England in
1840, in Germany in 1880, in the Middle West of the United States in 1920. The
peasant is tired of working without wages when the town offers him wages
without work. So away he goes - to become a ‘proletarian.’” - HOUR OF DECISION

“The whole pyramid of cultural man vanishes. It crumbles from the summit, first the world-cities, then the provincial forms, and finally the land itself, whose best blood has incontinently poured into the towns, merely to bolster them up awhile. At the last, only the primitive blood remains, alive, but robbed of its strongest and most promising elements. This residue is the Fellah type.” - DECLINE OF THE WEST

“As soon as Life is fatigued, as soon as a man is put on to the artificial soil of great cities - which are intellectual worlds to themselves - and needs a theory in which suitably to present Life to himself, morale turns into a problem.” - http://www.duke.edu/~aparks/Spengler5.html

“The transition from Culture to Civilization was accomplished for the Classical world in the fourth, for the Western in the nineteenth century. Form these periods onward the great intellectual decisions take place, no longer all over the world where not a hamlet is too small to be unimportant, but in three or four world-cities that have absorbed into themselves the whole content of History, while the old wide landscape of the Culture, become merely provincial, served only to feed the cities with what remains of its higher mankind. World-city and province—the two basic ideas of every civilization—bring up a wholly new form-problem of History, the very problem that we are living through today with hardly the remotest conception of its immensity. In place of a world, there is a city, a point, in which the whole life of broad regions is collecting while the rest dries up. In place of a type-true people, born of and grown on the soil, there is new sort of nomad, cohering unstably in fluid masses, the parasitical city dweller, traditionless, utterly matter-of-fact, religionless, clever, unfruitful, deeply contemptuous of the countryman and especially that highest form of countryman, the country gentleman. This is a very great stride towards the inorganic, towards the end—what does it signify?

The world-city means cosmopolitanism in place of “home” . . . To the world-city belongs not a folk but a mob. Its uncomprehending hostility to all the traditions representative of the culture (nobility, church, privileges, dynasties, convention in art and limits of knowledge in science), the keen and cold intelligence that confounds the wisdom of the peasant, the new- fashioned naturalism that in relation to all matters of sex and society goes back far to quite primitive instincts and conditions, the reappearance of the panem et circenses in the form of wage-disputes and sports stadia—all these things betoken the definite closing down of the Culture and the opening of a quite new phase of human existence—anti-provincial, late, futureless, but quite inevitable.” - http://www.duke.edu/~aparks/SPENG7.html

“What makes the man of the world-cities incapable of living on any but this artificial footing is that the cosmic beat in his being is every decreasing, while the tensions of his waking- consciousness become more and more dangerous.. This then, is the conclusion of the city’s history; growing from primitive barter-centre to Culture-city and at last to world-city, it sacrifices first the blood and soul of its creators to the needs of its majestic evolution, and then the last flower of that growth to the spirit of civilization—and so, doomed, moves on to final self-destruction.”

More reading:

- http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Folk_and_Land

- http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Richard_Walther_Darré


17

Posted by Wandrin on Sun, 24 Oct 2010 05:50 | #

What is it exactly that “you people” want, and why?

1) English ethno-state.
- Minimum 90% English, further up to 98% other British and British descent, up to 2% other.
- Written constitution, US one as the model with extra clauses specifying blood citizenship and a specified mechanism for maintaining a minimum level of genetic closeness
- improved liberal democracy stealing good ideas from here and there

2) Variations on the ethno-state theme according to their own preferences for the other white nations as that will be neccessary for mutual survival.
- some kind of treaty arrangement based on total non-interference in each other’s internal affairs but mutual aid in a crisis
- all the white nations with a few nukes to prevent unneccessary wars
- some particular considerations for Anglosphere countries

3) A certain amount of re-arranging of the world to make this potential extinction event less likely in the future.

Why?

Some day in the future i want my blood to see the view on Alpha Centauri.


18

Posted by Leon Haller on Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:47 | #

Very good, Wandrin (though I’m sorry that I accidentally posted that comment here, when I lost another, much longer one somehow).

The jury is still out, though, on whether any kind of either liberalism or democracy will be compatible with any white ethnostate. They could be logically, perhaps, but psychologically, I think some type of fairly rigorous authoritarianism will be needed, both to achieve as well as maintain the ethnostate, at least in the early years.


19

Posted by Sam Davidson on Sun, 24 Oct 2010 22:00 | #

The Larger Question, danced around but insufficiently honed: What is it exactly that “you people” want, and why?

Well… that’s a fairly broad question.

I want:

...to not worry that my family will be raped/dismembered in their sleep.
...to stop paying for other people’s illegitimate children.
...to stop subsidizing an educational system that discriminates against my race.
...to protect the integrity of my country’s borders.
...an end to foreign wars at the behest of influential lobbyists.

I don’t want my country to look like this:




20

Posted by pug on Sun, 24 Oct 2010 22:40 | #

Leon Haller,

Once the ethnostate is achieved, a year’s worth of propaganda and fullstop will assure its persistence for at least half a century. Can you imagine the effect it will have on our people to educate en masse on the importance of European life, or just inciting the masses by barraging and flashing all the non-White on White crime scene photographs available on public record, and pointing out what evil our predecessors had done to our people?

The important thing is getting there. I don’t think it is possible through GW’s intellectualism at this point, though I wouldn’t put in on hold. This (MP3, Follow The White Rabbit podcast #52, talking about relentless repetition of ideological contradictions in left-liberalism as the means of bringing the Establishment) seems more important. Edmond Henri Adolphe Schérer had the same idea: wordism is at fault.


21

Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 01:18 | #

“What do we want” is a good question.  But it is not the first question.  That, to answer pug, is “Who are we”.

In the end, if we cannot answer this simple question, if, instead, all we can do is point to histories and genealogies or cite study references or lose ourselves in filmy imaginings of a virtuous past ... if we really cannot look at one another and at our children and say “This is who we are, and we are one”, then how can we be expected to fight those who oppress us and take our freedom as a people away and our children’s birthright?  How can we be expected to slough off the veil of lies and distortions that they use?  How can we find something more important to us than our jobs, our comforts, our security, our quiet lives, and do what must be done?

It is easy to say, “Here ... here is the panacea. Here is what we must do.”  Our numbers are full of people who have such thoughts.  They don’t understand how deep the existential crisis runs.  For over a thousand years we have worshipped an adopted god and a dogma of original sin.  For over nine hundred years we have tolerated a detached and self-interested ruling elite.  For over three hundred years we have chased after an abstract notion of liberty.  We have industrialised and atomised, and become impoverished by debt and by a crass materialism.  We have fought brother wars.  We have allowed the Jew to insinuate himself in our affairs, and now we are told we do not exist and there is nothing to defend against the waves of unwanted aliens washing over us.  The very idea, we are told, is unthinkable and inhuman.

How can we, to borrow from Fred Astaire, simply pick ourselves up from this, dust ourselves down and start all over again?  No, we must be serious.  Our self-estrangement is too profound to permit simple solutions.  As peoples and as a race, we have to return ourselves to healthy functioning, and the gold standard ... the real meaning ... of that is that once again we know who we are.


22

Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 01:55 | #

The jury is still out, though, on whether any kind of either liberalism or democracy will be compatible with any white ethnostate.

Sure. It doesn’t actually matter to me because what i believe is if the blood is preserved then eventually we’ll get back to some kind of democracy over time the same way any ethnic group with average 100+ IQ will always tend to some kind of democracy over time.

And left to our own devices over time, with many mistakes and dead ends along the way, we’d gradually perfect it.

The only vital thing is maintaining our blood - i wouldn’t say pure exactly, but within a certain range of genetic closeness - as the overwhelmingly dominant ethnic majority on our land.

Which then leads me to the same view expressed by pug

talking about relentless repetition of ideological contradictions in left-liberalism as the means of bringing the Establishment

because to me, if my tribe’s blood is preserved then over time they’ll gradually evolve towards the *best* form of government. So what i want is the survival of my blood on our land as everything else will inevitably follow on from that over the centuries. Everything else is tactics.


23

Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 01:59 | #

For over a thousand years we have worshipped an adopted god and a dogma of original sin.

I think we adopted the dogma of original sin so readily because it fitted our evolved psychology as per MacD.

Other than that quibble though i generally take your point and would prefer a form of religion which met the psychological needs of people while at the same time 100% supporting our blood, our land.


24

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 02:09 | #

As peoples and as a race, we have to return ourselves to healthy functioning, and the gold standard ... the real meaning ... of that is that once again we know who we are.

[For over nine hundred years we have tolerated a detached and self-interested ruling elite.]

And there remains a question as to why you are once again subject to a master people?

Marx himself would have been hard-pressed to have extruded a finer specimen of prole-speak.


25

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 02:29 | #

We must be serious…, know who we are.

I was quite content with myself as an imp until this guy came along.


26

Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 02:35 | #

And there remains a question as to why you are once again subject to a master people?

Easy answer to that. Normal people find it almost impossible to imagine the level of betrayal jews, or at least diaspora jews consider normal because, to take the most charitable explanation, they haven’t had the same twisted history as the jews did.

The jewish way of being, to take the most charitable explanation, is based on thousands of years of wanting to survive and thrive as a small minority inside host populations without assimilating. Apart from gypsies no other group in Europe had that experience.

The way of being they evolved requires constant and casual betrayal of their non-jewish neighbours on a daily basis. To them it is pre-emptive self-defence hence their complete lack of shame over it.

It’s like a big goy saves the life of a jew and then immediately the jew starts plotting to kill the man who saved his life and steal the man’s house. You don’t have to be clever to do that, although no doubt it helps, you just have to be viler than the first man could ever imagine.

If you are viler and more treachorous than the average person can imagine it’s easy.

There’s a whole class of conmen who are the same. There’s one set that targets greedy people and another set that targets kind people because kind people are so trusting.


27

Posted by uh on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 02:59 | #

The globe-trotter lives in a smaller world than the peasant. He is always breathing, an air of locality. London is a place, to be compared to Chicago; Chicago is a place, to be compared to Timbuctoo. But Timbuctoo is not a place, since there, at least, live men who regard it as the universe, and breathe, not an air of locality, but the winds of the world. The man in the saloon steamer has seen all the races of men, and he is thinking of the things that divide men—diet, dress, decorum, rings in the nose as in Africa, or in the ears as in Europe, blue paint among the ancients, or red paint among the modern Britons. The man in the cabbage field has seen nothing at all; but he is thinking of the things that unite men—hunger and babies, and the beauty of women, and the promise or menace of the sky. Mr. Kipling, with all his merits, is the globe-trotter; he has not the patience to become part of anything. So great and genuine a man is not to be accused of a merely cynical cosmopolitanism; still, his cosmopolitanism is his weakness. That weakness is splendidly expressed in one of his finest poems, “The Sestina of the Tramp Royal,” in which a man declares that he can endure anything in the way of hunger or horror, but not permanent presence in one place. In this there is certainly danger. The more dead and dry and dusty a thing is the more it travels about; dust is like this and the thistle-down and the High Commissioner in South Africa. Fertile things are somewhat heavier, like the heavy fruit trees on the pregnant mud of the Nile. In the heated idleness of youth we were all rather inclined to quarrel with the implication of that proverb which says that a rolling stone gathers no moss. We were inclined to ask, “Who wants to gather moss, except silly old ladies? “But for all that we begin to perceive that the proverb is right. The rolling stone rolls echoing from rock to rock; but the rolling stone is dead. The moss is silent because the moss is alive.

-Chesty, Heretics


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Posted by pug on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 04:28 | #

“What do we want” is a good question.  But it is not the first question.  That, to answer pug, is “Who are we”.

In the end, if we cannot answer this simple question, if, instead, all we can do is point to histories and genealogies or cite study references or lose ourselves in filmy imaginings of a virtuous past ... if we really cannot look at one another and at our children and say “This is who we are, and we are one”, then how can we be expected to fight those who oppress us and take our freedom as a people away and our children’s birthright?  How can we be expected to slough off the veil of lies and distortions that they use?  How can we find something more important to us than our jobs, our comforts, our security, our quiet lives, and do what must be done? — GW

It can only be stated in 100,000 ways and you know it. I’ll try to add to the list, then:

It is mostly due to the hostile jewish elite’s intellectual terrorism that European people can eschew most of our current understanding of biology, as well as physics, and what intellectual position flows from them, even if the instinct for, and implicit understanding of, self-preservation that most beings already default to fail. All individual evolved organisms have a non-putative “striving of life,” a raison d’être and ultimate interests toward ensuring the indefinite survival and expansion of their distinctive genetic information—information that is an important part of the fabric of reality and subjectively, for the organism, of the utmost importance—whether said distinctive genetic information is present and embodied in said organism or collateral kin—kin extending to and including the populational and ethnic/racial variety. Such is the only abiding morality; there is no other more important reason for which we, or our social mores, culture or governments, or their territorial monopolies, should exist. Sidestepping and cutting through all the metaphysical quagmires of yore, yesterday and the quotidian present, there is indeed an “afterlife” to speak of and consists of gaining informational representation in the universe through your natural ingroup’s progeniture, whether directly yours or kin by other means. Either we obtain ethnostates, or our history never was and our future is lost. We have less than a generation left to act.

So, do I know or not know “who we are?”

1.) What must be done is informing people of these basic life-facts, but not through eschewing socio-cultural palingenesis or any other argument for ethnic nationalism such as from the social and economic realm et seq., and certainly not at the level above; I don’t think intellectual elites can be won, and may have to be [self-censored], along with perhaps all politicians in a national revolution that is not of the ideational, so gearing oneself up would be a good idea. Why? Because I do not believe in your blatantly palingenetic pretense of English honesty, fairness & honor, that perhaps never existed, that you feel will get England through this. Philosophically qualifying “who we are”—to death?—isn’t political traction.

2.) What must also be done is drawing up an intellectual & political manifesto and talking points that all European nationalist politicians can and will constantly use, esp. White or “[insert ethnicity] genocide.” Furthermore, we need a skillfully written economic programme with regards to the issue of the monetary system and the lie of ‘free trade,’ both of which are false excuses for genocidal mass immigration. If nothing of the intellectual work done here gets applied through the political, and if the ‘free trade’ issue isn’t brought up, people won’t turn to us (“We told you so!”) when shite hits the fan, which is soon.

I don’t know how to get direct access to nationalist political parties. I don’t know if even one is currently addressing race qua race, since they’re all been seemingly queered to civic nationalism via anti-White legislation or lack of will. We need to build that bridge to all of them, however, and give them talking points which can escape PC inquisition such as discussed in the Follow The White Rabbit podcast linked above, which you are most welcome to listen to should time be available. The failure of nationalist parties to drive this point home—of minoritisation, then extinction, and what this means—is both interesting and risible. The question is how do we capture our friends who have never thought of extinction before, to then move on to our foes? And what can we do about a egomaniacal tosser such as Lee John Barnes who has been thoroughly exposed to the message of English life and rejects it for political acumen?


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Posted by Lurker on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 04:37 | #

Thanks for that uh, I’d never read that before.


30

Posted by Mario on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 04:46 | #

any ethnic group with average 100+ IQ will always tend to some kind of democracy over time.

Only very recently in historical terms has democracy become at all popular.

If we assume that some ethnic groups had IQs of 100 or above 1,000 years ago, which seems likely enough, than none of those ethnic groups practiced democracy.

If all the 100 IQ ethnic groups went from no democracy to having it, what actual reason is there to think they won’t all go back to not having democracy again?

It happened in Germany. 

They went from being a democracy to not being one, and it’s only because Hitler happened to lose the war that they went back to being a democracy.

Enough with the enshrinement of historical accident into historical law.


31

Posted by pug on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 04:55 | #

Wandrin,

The radio show I mentioned advocates something brilliant: the Establishment’s buzz-words and buzzphrases should be met with fiercer others. To wit, whenever some White anti-White calls you a “racist,” the appropriate snappy reply is to be invariably the following (not an exact reproduction of how he does it, but that’s unimportant):

In your opinion I am a racist. You are only saying that because I am White. Anti-racism is just a code-word for being anti-White, and a feeble cover for your self-estrangement and hatred of your own kind.

I.e., don’t accept it, don’t deny it, don’t question it or yourself, just attack them and question their motives. He figures that if enough people know this, it will reverb, spread geometrically and ultimately destroy our being owned by words.

To my knowledge, there is nothing they can do to respond to the above effectively; tested it and it works. Perhaps because it is true. One can twist it and use it with “anti-Semite” or whatever one wishes.


32

Posted by pug on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 05:03 | #

Mario,

The extent to which European nations are currently democracies is very questionable.


33

Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 06:06 | #

Mario

Only very recently in historical terms has democracy become at all popular.

Well, i’m not going to argue about this as it’s not relevant. I think if my blood manages to survive this current attempted genocide and ends up maintaining itself at c98% of the blood on our land then the form of government will inevitably trend in the direction i would like because of oxytocin. There might well be numerous diversions along the way but that is my belief.

People originally from the non-marxist and non-ideological left will understand it better because oxytocin is the foundation of that strand of politics.

Pug

The radio show I mentioned advocates something brilliant:

Yeah. I’ve been following that line for a while now - consistent message - bang, bang, bang, like a hammer. It’s slow but it works and if it ever reaches critical mass then things could flip dramatically.


34

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 12:13 | #

“And there remains a question as to why you are once again subject to a master people?”

Easy answer to that. Normal people find it almost impossible to imagine the level of betrayal jews, or at least diaspora jews consider normal because, to take the most charitable explanation, they haven’t had the same twisted history as the jews did.

No, that is the answer to another and subordinate question.

Which would be: why are now the Jews the particular master people involved - rather than why are the goyim perpetually subject to a master race, in general, as above.

And the answer thereto is: the goy is a perpetual child - whose intellect is marvelously adept at solving technical problems (playing with toys and taking them apart) - but whose grasp of larger organizational conundrums is negroid.


35

Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 12:43 | #

the goy is a perpetual child

Yawn. My people, left to our own devices on our own land, will always eventually make much better places to live than your people.


36

Posted by Leon Haller on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 13:26 | #

“What do we want” is a good question.  But it is not the first question.  That, to answer pug, is “Who are we”.

In the end, if we cannot answer this simple question, if, instead, all we can do is point to histories and genealogies or cite study references or lose ourselves in filmy imaginings of a virtuous past ... if we really cannot look at one another and at our children and say “This is who we are, and we are one”, then how can we be expected to fight those who oppress us and take our freedom as a people away and our children’s birthright?  How can we be expected to slough off the veil of lies and distortions that they use?  How can we find something more important to us than our jobs, our comforts, our security, our quiet lives, and do what must be done?

It is easy to say, “Here ... here is the panacea. Here is what we must do.” Our numbers are full of people who have such thoughts.  They don’t understand how deep the existential crisis runs.  For over a thousand years we have worshipped an adopted god and a dogma of original sin.  For over nine hundred years we have tolerated a detached and self-interested ruling elite.  For over three hundred years we have chased after an abstract notion of liberty.  We have industrialised and atomised, and become impoverished by debt and by a crass materialism.  We have fought brother wars.  We have allowed the Jew to insinuate himself in our affairs, and now we are told we do not exist and there is nothing to defend against the waves of unwanted aliens washing over us.  The very idea, we are told, is unthinkable and inhuman.

How can we, to borrow from Fred Astaire, simply pick ourselves up from this, dust ourselves down and start all over again?  No, we must be serious.  Our self-estrangement is too profound to permit simple solutions.  As peoples and as a race, we have to return ourselves to healthy functioning, and the gold standard ... the real meaning ... of that is that once again we know who we are. GW)

_______________________________

A lot here to mull. This response could easily generate a counter-response in the form of a series of questions - Thirty (or Fifty or a Hundred) Questions for Racialists. Because I am harried, I will confine myself.

1. Is it possible to say “who we are”? Who any race/people is, existentially? Has our race ever answered that question in the past?

2. Is it really necessary to answer “who we are” in order to save our race from extinction?

3. Why did our self-estrangement, if dated to the Euro-barbarian conversions (in the main, from Constantine to its substantial conclusion by the time of Charlemagne), only now manifest itself?

4. Do you hold that modern Western/white self-denial was always a latent aspect of the West’s acceptance of Christianity? Or is it possible that modern Christianity is itself a heretical deformation of the historic faith? How do you explain the clear fact that Western self-hatred has grown concurrently with the decline of traditionalist Christianity, and the rise of liberalism?

5. Is white suicide primarily a philosophical, theological, biological, sociological, or political problem?

I think these questions (and others I didn’t list) are very important, as is this type of discussion (though we must always bear in mind that at some point soon, we must ‘shite or get off the can’; we cannot endlessly debate the sources of our existential angsts, while the floodtide of aliens washes ever higher - I always like to remind the intellectuals that there is an ever-worsening physical condition out there that finally we will have to defeat, concurrent with our theorizing, if not before we have fashioned a new meaning of life).

My own view (very simplified) is:

a. Christianity is plausible enough for me to accept it.

b. Christianity, in its essence, does not morally necessitate the abandonment of non-universal attachments (to kin, community, nation, race).

c. Liberalism is hostile to particularistic attachments, as well as un- and anti-Christian.

d. The rise of Western self-destruction precisely chronologically mirrors the political ascendance of leftism (liberalism, socialism), though other, less ideational factors have played important roles in white destruction: rise of Jews, intra-racial wars, communication/transportation revolution ‘shrinking’ the world and thereby facilitating immigration, trade, capital flows, in turn leading to white elite unrootedness and psychic displacement from ‘folkish’ bonds, general rise of ‘individual’ and ‘self’, etc.

e. The intellectual/ideational problem of white suicide is to be solved through a return to traditional Christianity, now theologically updated to sanction ethnocommunal preservation (such preservationism, I believe, always theologically latent in the Faith, though never explored in great depth - as far as I have discovered - as today’s issues have never before obtained).

Much more could be said, obviously. I leave the ball(s) in your court(s).


37

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 13:52 | #

Yawn. My people, left to our own devices on our own land, will always eventually make much better places to live than your people.

If wishes were horses…

[You will never “be left to [your] own devices” on a globe where the population has passed pre-historic demographic levels.]

So grow up and try to grasp that human life is going to be, inescapably, stratified by lies and violence.

Sadly - presently - your attitude portends that you will be perpetually on the bottom of that pile! :-(


38

Posted by Leon Haller on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 13:54 | #

GW,

On one point we are in complete agreement. The modal way of life in the white world today is wholly racially unsustainable. That is, the entirety of the modern way of life propels white extinction, even if that is not the intention of most whites (neither is racial preservation, of course).

Is racial extinction primarily an epiphenomenon of the modern lifestyle? Or is it intrinsic to it?

Put another way, there is an ideology - multiculturalism, ‘diversityism’, liberalism - dominant in the West which promotes white extinction (or at least, excoriates positive steps towards white preservation).

But it seems as though the dominant economic structures and (non-racial) social mores (‘acquisitive individualism’) in the West also functionally promote white extinction.

Does the ideology create the structures and mores, or did the latter create conditions for which multiculti can be seen as an ex post facto rationalization?

I know I’m not expressing myself well, but perhaps you/others can intuit where I’m going with this. 

I want to know if this is really all one big intellectual problem/error, or if the modern world, quite apart from multiculti ideology, produces a non-communitarian, short-term outlooking greedmonger, for whom kinist or nationalist sacrifice is no longer desirable or even intelligible.


39

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:05 | #

Does the ideology create the structures and mores, or did the latter create conditions for which multiculti can be seen as an ex post facto rationalization?


...the party of fanciful Good Intentions with which this Road to Hell is presently being paved is the meliorist liberal Left, classical and modern, which has facilitated the liberation of the “people,” bourgeois and working-class, from their historic aristocratic masters. If we place the most charitable interpretation upon the motivation behind this contribution, we would say that the oppressed and exploited have thereby been relieved of such injustice, and have been granted the freedom and rights to which all are entitled by virtue of their humanity. Notions of Natural Law and Progress make self-evident the righteousness of this subversive enterprise — based, as it is believed to be, upon universal principles dictated by reason and compassion for one’s fellow man. Thus, as is easily observed in the present instance, advocates of this “liberalism” find themselves to be the most compassionate, caring, concerned, and committed of us all in seeing to the welfare of humanity as a whole and of the planet upon which that humanity resides.

The problem with liberating the lower orders, however, is that the revolution means more suffering, exploitation, and death under the new masters than under the old. For example, maintaining order on a mutinous ship in the old days sometimes meant resorting to flogging miscreants even more often than did the martinet who induced the mutiny. More recently, the nascent Soviet Union had to take murderous Russian brutality and callousness to unprecedented heights (or depths) in conforming its much-reduced population of surviving peasants and workers to their lovely new Gulag-enhanced and Secret-Police-supervised “Worker’s Paradise”. And to date, the tally of Maoist Red Chinese domestic megacide, in pursuit of a pure Communist liberationist regime, has not even been approached in absolute numbers by any other polity.

That is the actual working-out of the brutal logic of political-economy in the history of events, as opposed to the sentimental theory and fable with which we are most familiar. The order created by centuries of aristocratic dominion is not a story of unbridled rapacity presiding over incessant misery, a’la the tales of Robin Hood and Uncle Tom’s Cabin, but, in fact, of the progressive minimization of the unavoidable impositions that violent conflict make upon human society. It is when republican “citizenship” and revolutionary “comradeship” make their appearance on the scene that the suffering and killing really start - because the demands of the newly-elevated rabble multiply the demands that must be met. It was democratic Athenian imperialism, not monarchic Spartan conservatism, that provoked formation of the anti-Athenian coalition leading to the Peloponnesian War. It was the most “liberal” of the European powers, England, the World’s Workshop, and not Prussian Militarist Germany, on whose empire the sun never set.

Liberalism is thus the logical and historical prelude to anarchy or despotism, by virtue of having unleashed demands, for the satisfaction of which no new formula exists in replacement of the accommodations reached in the course of centuries of aristocratic rule. Anglo-America has avoided this fate, to this date, first, by having long exploited the politico-economic virtues of global colonialism in which Laissez-faire works nicely according to theory - until a pioneering frontier closes - and by having thereafter been sold into another Faustian Pact with the Fifth-Column international theocrats of the day (elite Jewry having replaced the Church in this capacity).

This latter-day Deal with the Devil involved being rewarded in the historic short-term with manhood-affirming, mock-heroic martial “victory,” and with long-awaited economic “recovery,” and with transitory global pre-eminence in the aftermath of the Fifth Column’s engineering of the War to Save Communism from Hitler and Tojo - plus the wide-spread off-shoring of otherwise class-warfare-producing wage-slavery and the additional extortions from global economic imperialism, as a bonus.

This comes, however, at the long-term expense of eliminating effective resistance to displacement of the native oligarchy by elite Jewry, of resistance to illegal immigration and eventual declension into Third-World decrepitude, and of preparedness for eventual attack by the irregular forces of the Asian (currently crypto-Communist Russian and Chinese Communist) revolutionary regimes, who are deceptively exploiting the ideologically-based delusions of their “objective enemy,” Greater Judea (formerly “America”) - the latter having been temporarily elevated beyond its place in the world (Hua Guofeng-wise) by the Fifth-Column-engineered WWII alliance with its Communist then-and-now mortal enemy, in a back-stabbing betrayal of its would-be natural and present ally, Germany.


40

Posted by Leon Haller on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:09 | #

NN,

You just wrote that comment/response in 11 minutes??!! Unless you’ve merely appended something written previously, you must be some kind of genius. I’m not sure I merely could have typed what you wrote that quickly.


41

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:14 | #

LH,

Cut and pasted from .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).


42

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:25 | #

SUPERHUMAN

[I mistakenly linked email, previously]


43

Posted by Sam Davidson on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:39 | #

3. Why did our self-estrangement, if dated to the Euro-barbarian conversions (in the main, from Constantine to its substantial conclusion by the time of Charlemagne), only now manifest itself?

Do you not think that race replacement was happening in the Roman Empire?
http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/e/bencragun/ben42/Ancient Ancestors.htm

Do you not think that the rise of Christianity had something to do with the decline of classical civilization? After the Christians took power they outlawed paganism upon penalty of death. They tore down ancient idols. This pattern repeated itself in Northern Europe. And yet this is somehow compatible with our culture?



a. Christianity is plausible enough for me to accept it.

A virgin birth, a man walking on water, a reanimated corpse? How are these things even remotely plausible?

b. Christianity, in its essence, does not morally necessitate the abandonment of non-universal attachments (to kin, community, nation, race).

Get behind me, Satan! Christ refutes you!

Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.” (Matthew 10:35)

But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” (Matthew 12:47)

And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Behold! My mother and My brethren.” (Matthew 12:48)

If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, yes even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

...anyone who does not renounce all he has cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:33)

4. Do you hold that modern Western/white self-denial was always a latent aspect of the West’s acceptance of Christianity?

It was already fully developed in Christianity, it was never ‘latent.’

Or is it possible that modern Christianity is itself a heretical deformation of the historic faith?

Christianity has certainly developed away from the original cult… It lost most of its radicalism as an adaptation to long-term survival. Christianity today is a mashup of pagan festivals with Jesus-cult aesthetics.

How do you explain the clear fact that Western self-hatred has grown concurrently with the decline of traditionalist Christianity, and the rise of liberalism?

For better or worse, Christianity became a part of Western culture. Our culture is dying, thus Christianity dies with it…

In its death throes the Christian leaders are trying to convert non-whites, but it usually ends up like this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1318756/Papua-New-Guineas-Black-Jesus-guilty-raping-young-girls.html?ITO=1490


44

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:40 | #

Leon,

Here are some my thoughts on the subject.

Many of the big problems that surround us can be directly traced back to ideas that came out of the Enlightenment, which has resulted in a triumph of the technocratic over the ancient and spiritual.

It’s not that all the ideas inherent to classic liberal thought are wrong - to the contrary, I think they have a necessary place for the more individualistic peoples of the West - it’s just that you can’t found a nation on them.  Nations should be founded on principles of identity and not simply on freedom, natural rights, and equality.  Moreover, if we are to contemplate about the prospect of rebuilding our respective societies on principles of identity then it stands to reason that we must also figure out who we are and just what kind of identity we should be organizing our political energies around.  These are not matters of common sense given our current condition of extreme self-estrangement.

Another big problem that I can identify is our incomplete view of wealth.  The kind of economic thinking that’s been dominant in the West measures economic value in terms of unending growth; increasing economic value (i.e. “growing” the economy) means increasing the rate of unending growth.  Clearly, this model is not sustainable and needs to be tempered by a broader view of wealth that takes into account both social and environmental factors.  For example, a business might bring in lots of dusky hordes into its workshops because it can employ them at cheaper cost and reap a big profit, but this kind of thing only works in the short-term for if those dusky hordes were to be so numerous as to grasp the reigns of power then the entire social-economic fabric that allowed that business to be profitable in the first place would dissolve and wealth will be lost.  Another example, a business might increase its profit margin by dumping its untreated waste onto the land; however, this too is a short-term situation as eventually the land might be so polluted and degraded that it can no longer support the society that lives on it and wealth will be lost.


45

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:01 | #

Sam,

For those of us who live in the real world the West is now thoroughly secular and technocratic, neither Christian nor pagan.  You can hate how Christianity replaced those pagan idols many centuries ago as much as you want, but it’s an exercise in esoteric irrelevancy at this point.

Nietzsche was right when he wrote in the 19th century that, “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.”  Western society no longer believes in such things so you’ll have to look elsewhere for the problem.


46

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:12 | #

Another big problem that I can identify is our incomplete view of wealth.  The kind of economic thinking that’s been dominant in the West measures economic value in terms of unending growth; increasing economic value (i.e. “growing” the economy) means increasing the rate of unending growth.  Clearly, this model is not sustainable and needs to be tempered by a broader view of wealth that takes into account both social and environmental factors.  For example, a business might bring in lots of dusky hordes into its workshops because it can employ them at cheaper cost and reap a big profit, but this kind of thing only works in the short-term for if those dusky hordes were to be so numerous as to grasp the reigns of power then the entire social-economic fabric that allowed that business to be profitable in the first place would dissolve and wealth will be lost.  Another example, a business might increase its profit margin by dumping its untreated waste onto the land; however, this too is a short-term situation as eventually the land might be so polluted and degraded that it can no longer support the society that lives on it and wealth will be lost.

If only I could arrange to retain my youth, I should live forever.

A polity will grow as long as it can, economically and/or territorially - for, when it reaches its maximum extent, it has only to decline.  As one hopes to defer death, a polity will resort to one or another sort of imperialism or colonialism in order to continue to remain whole or in balance and thus alive.

The anti-imperialism of the Left (and of the bone-head Right) is a formula for premature disintegration or fossilization of the social organism.  No one has developed a formula for societal stasis or equilibrium.

Because (rimshot) - that’s what death is.


47

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:14 | #

NN,

I’m feeling puckish this morning.

Which would be: why are now the Jews the particular master people involved…

This springs from an inverted form of Jew worship, resist the Nietzschean urge to make gods out of men.

...but whose grasp of larger organizational conundrums is negroid.

If by negroid you mean to say that his mind is prone to being addled with conspiracies then I agree with you.


48

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:27 | #

NN,

The anti-imperialism of the Left (and of the bone-head Right) is a formula for premature disintegration or fossilization of the social organism.  No one has developed a formula for societal stasis or equilibrium.

I don’t deny the circle of life, but I would hope to preserve the most essential elements of our civilization when death inevitably comes.


49

Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 20:05 | #

So grow up and try to grasp that human life is going to be, inescapably, stratified by lies and violence.

You’re a jew. You might not actually be jewish but you’re describing exactly how they think, or at least how their worst 20% think.

The simple reality is…

If enough white people come to believe they are the ongoing victims of a deliberate attempt at global genocide by the jews as a reaction to Hitler (which they are) then they’ll be very, very cross.

If this is achieved before it’s too late then that level of crossness will lead to the world being re-shaped in highly dramatic ways aimed at reducing the chances of this happening again.

Win or lose, as this all comes to a head very, very large numbers of innocent people will be getting killed simply because 20% of those ****ers think they’re the master race. Tragic.

==

Also God isn’t dead because God is empathy therefore God will continually be reborn. If you want to kill God you’ll have to eradicate oxytocin in the blood.

Master shepherds would be the ones who understand the sheep best not the least.


50

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:28 | #

You’re a jew. You might not actually be jewish but you’re describing exactly how they think, or at least how their worst 20% think.

You refer, of course, to the 20% that are the cowboys that run the ranch (the ole “Circle K”) that you occupy as a cow.

So consider this question, Wandrin: who do you think best knows how to run a ranch - a cowboy or a cow?

And what does a number of very very cross cows constitute other than a stampede?

And who knows best how to direct and get control of a stampede other than a cowboy?

So, Wandrin, you might not actually be a cow…


51

Posted by Sam Davidson on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:05 | #

For those of us who live in the real world the West is now thoroughly secular and technocratic, neither Christian nor pagan. You can hate how Christianity replaced those pagan idols many centuries ago as much as you want,...

You’re implying that I’m a bitter pagan blaming our current woes on Christianity. That’s not true.

...but it’s an exercise in esoteric irrelevancy at this point.

Irrelevant to what?

Nietzsche was right when he wrote in the 19th century that, “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.” Western society no longer believes in such things so you’ll have to look elsewhere for the problem.

And what is… the problem?


52

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:08 | #

Wandrin,

If enough white people come to believe…

I’ve forwarded the entirety of your message to the major media outlets. It’s just a matter of time now before our masters begin repeating the Mantra to the millions.

‘Til the cows come home, stay tuned.


53

Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:31 | #

Neo,

“who do you think best knows how to run a ranch”

They don’t know how to run a ranch. Hence Germany in the 30s and the coming economic collapse in Britain and America. All they know how to do is loot what others have built. My people know how to run a ranch. My people’s problem is their inability to conceive of levels of trachery above a certain threshold.

Like i said. Your primary value is as an educational tool. You think exactly like the worst jews.


JimmyMarr,

Everyone has a media outlet. It’s called their mouth.

Alternatively you can dress up in a kilt and shout “sieg heil” in the face of a conveniently placed 90 year old rabbi.


54

Posted by Ezra Pound Says... on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 00:33 | #

“The Jew is a savage, his psychology is ... may the stink of your camp drive you onwards—herders—having no care but to let their herds grouse and move onward when the pasture is exhausted.” - May 11, 1943

—-

A bit of writing on the nomadic character from http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_Recon/Wrench_Recon_6.html

The Jews and other nomadic people are DESERT MAKERS; wherever they have settled they’ve historically turned in to inhospitable deserts and then moved on to greener pastures looking for new goyim to exploit.

The Nomads are the inhabitants of Belt 2, the Steppe country. They are defined in Annandale’s Concise English Dictionary as ‘those people whose chief occupation consists of feeding their flocks, and who shift their residence according to the state of the pasture’.

The Nomads, according to this definition, present a picture to the mind’s eye of wandering shepherds and peaceful pastoralists passing from pasture to pasture to the sound of tinkling cow bells. They would erect their tents of oxhide at new pastures and enjoy the comfort of a home and resting place, until their experienced eyes told them that the pasture was insufficient for their cattle and it was time to move on.

...

The picture of the Nomads is a pleasant one and their life was peaceful and pleasant as long as the pasture was good. But, when the rain was scanty and the pasture poor, they were in trouble, Then they had to move frequently and, sometimes, faced by the loss of their cattle by starvation and themselves feeling the pinch of hunger, they would move quickly and their warriors, mounted on their loved steeds and armed with bows and arrows, would fling themselves upon peaceful people, either more fortunate pastoralists like themselves or farmers, slay many and take possession of their land. With their incredible swiftness on the march and an unprecedented speed of encircling attack, with their deadly accuracy of arrows shot from the saddle, with their horrific cries to terrorize their slow-moving victims, they must have seemed like a horde of winged insects, whose sting was death, and whose capture and destruction were impossible.

The cause of this disturbing loss of food was at one time believed to be an increasing dryness of the climate in historical times. This hypothesis was propounded by Prince Kropotkin in an article in the Royal Geographical Journal of 1904 in which he stated that it was quite certain that Belt No. 4 was more populated than it is now; it was quite certain, for example, that within historical times Eastern Turkestan and the adjacent part of Mongolia ‘were not deserts as they are now. They had a numerous population, advanced in civilization, which stood in lively intercourse with different parts of Asia’. Many of them were successful farmers dependent on irrigation from rivers flowing from their enclosing mountains. This, Sir Aurel Stein, in his monumental work The Desert Cities of Cathay, 1912, has convincingly proved beyond further discussion. Kropotkin continued: ‘All this is now gone, and it must have been the rapid desiccation of this region which compelled its inhabitants to rush down to the Jungarian Gate’ (Jungaria was a name of Western Mongolia) ‘to the lowlands of Balkash and the Obi.’ Mr. Huntingdon Ellsworth skilfully developed this hypothesis in The Pulse of Asia.

...

Another reason had to be found. It was found in the particular character of the treatment of the soil by the Nomads.

The first statement of this other reason, which I have been able to find, is that by Monsieur Rorit in the Royal Geographical Journal of 1870. Rorit wrote: ‘The nakedness of Arabia and the vast tracts of Asia in the north and west, the sterility, which extends over Persia, cannot be traced to any other cause than the pastoral habits of the inhabitants. The people inhabiting them are locusts; they destroy all woodland and vegetation, modifying even the climate—whence the necessity of migrations. Had the invasions of the barbarians any other cause? A study of the question in this sense would perhaps give us the key to the great migrations of mankind.’

Monsieur Rorit’s reason is pungently expressed, but it is now accepted. It could not well be otherwise, for, to confirm it, the same process is going on in many parts of the world under our eyes today.

In the countries in which Nomads fed their flocks and herds and grew temporary crops of grain, there was, as is usual in uninterfered with nature, a balance between animal and vegetable life. Animals feed upon the land and manure it, but they do not ravage it. When human pastoralists entered these countries, there entered with them an altogether new danger, namely a form of terrene animals so advantaged by their upright position, their hands and their large brains, that they have the capacity to override the natural law of balance. They could breed more animals than the land could permanently support; they could break up the natural life-cycle of a district by using all that the soil produced, and then, when exhaustion of the soil came, move on to another district. With weapons forged from the iron of the Altai Mountains, these Nomads could cut down trees and shrubs and, with their ability to create fire from flint or friction, they could burn as well as cut down. The ash of the burnt trees and shrubs gave the manure of their substance to the land and enabled the Nomads to grow good temporary crops for a number of seasons. They, in short, as men, had power; and power in this sense may be defined as the ability to exceed the limitations set by nature.

Nature followed the rule of return, and the Nomads, unlike the true farmers, failed to follow the, rule of return. Indirectly, by cutting down trees and shrubs for fuel and for ash, they made the soil drier. Rain fell and was by nature broken into a fine spray by trees, shrubs and thick grass and was thus evenly and widely spread in the topsoil. The topsoil, sheltered from sun and rain, stored the water. By slow evaporation from the vegetation, the water was returned to the air. But where excess of cattle fed upon the land and where trees and shrubs were widely burnt, the soil was exposed, dried and powdered, and then blown away by the winds or washed away by the rain. So a district of desert was formed, which forced the Nomads to move on. Nature then returned and in many cases restored the ravage. But if the destruction of fertility had been too great or if the half-recovered soil was again used for crops and grazing, permanent deterioration was the result.

The Nomads, then, lived a life of ill-balance by not following the rule of return, which is the only stable rule of living. They were, therefore, forced to live a life of chance. They depended on the seasons and, as the seasons varied, they themselves were necessarily speculative. In this character, indeed, they were like to other kinds of speculators, many prominent at the present time. Speculators disregard the rule of return. They strive to gain without giving; they disregard future generations; they are indifferent to the sufferings of others, provided they themselves can escape suffering. Yet eventually there is no escape from the effects of these actions, because ultimately their values are destructive and not conservative.

As long as the Nomads failed to use settled agriculture and limit their cattle-breeding, life was sometimes generous to them, sometimes even-handed, sometimes, at seasons of drought, harsh. At times of harshness, mounted on their horses they organized wide-sweeping hunts of wild animals for their food. If further pressed, they were forced to move on and this sometimes entailed making raids into the lands of their neighbours, who, in their turn might raid or join with them in raiding. Then, with increasing numbers, they might successfully, make themselves masters of the land of settled farmers and the food and wealth, which they had not the wit to get by their own skill and toil. Hence they praised war, not as a means of defence in the way in which a sturdy peasantry has so often successfully defended itself and its soil, but as a means to mastery and wealth. To them life was not only a struggle for existence, but a will to power over their enemies, an assertion of the right of the better-armed and of the more savage nature over what they regarded as possible, and if possible legitimate, prey. They terrorized when they attacked, and, when they conquered, they were successful owing to the speed of their attack, the terror they aroused, and the human slaughter they effected. All these characters of theirs ultimately, therefore, arose from their attitude to the soil. The soil was something to be exploited and even plundered for their gain. This attitude was in the sharpest possible contrast to the tenet of the Babylonians, that the soil belonged to their god, or to the sanctity with which the soil was endowed by the followers of Zoroaster. These faiths of the holiness or wholeness of the soil were, as we shall see, faiths of the farmers; the very word cultivate is derived from the Latin verb colere, of the two-fold meaning of tilling and worship.

Yet the Nomads were not by any means always wild horsemen, as when they presented themselves to their enemies, the farmers. They had within them the gentler character of humanity. Professor Keane, in Man, Past and Present, said of the Tartars or Mongols of Mongolia: ‘They are all brave, warlike, even fierce, and capable of great atrocities, though not normally cruel.’ The invention of the gun has now robbed them of their power and, in consequence, they have ‘almost everywhere undergone a marked change from a rude and ferocious to a milder and more humane disposition.’

The Nomads have been the great human desert-makers, and the deserts of the Gobi, the Lop Nor, the Taklamakan, the Registan, the Great Salt Desert, the Syrian Desert, and even the Arabian Desert and the Sahara of Africa are due to their treatment of the soil. Nor is this desert-making by men at an end. It is going on at the present, as future chapters will show, in North and South America, in Russia, in Asia, in North and South Africa, in Australia, and even in the islands of New Zealand and the West Indies, with a speed that outstrips that of the Asiatic Nomads, so much so that it may even be said that man, in this proud scientific era, has paid for his all-too-swift advance by the loss of terrene capital, of the fertility of the soil. He has become the great transferrer of this capital to other fields than those of the soil, and, by his destruction of the soil, has foredoomed himself to God knows what impending calamities, exceeding those brought about by the Asiatic Nomads, unless he calls a halt.

It is this fact which gives this dissertation on the Nomadic character its present significance.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 00:44 | #

Neo,

I think you overreach in assuming mastery of the populace is an end unto itself in the service and realization of one’s masculinity and not properly done, all things considered, so when necessary that populace may endure.  Surely if the former course is taken without the added sense of duty to pursue the latter there is a much diminished likelihood that populace will enjoy survival unto the generations - it not then being thought of as mere fodder for the rule of its would be masters. 

On the other hand, it is my opinion GW’s conviction that an ethos of militarization and subordination to Leadership is not needed to effect mobilization in defense of ethnic interests - he cites the examples of the other combatants involved in WWII - is misplaced when addressing our present predicament as his favored examples were in possession of nation states which acted as established vehicles for channelling mobilization where as we have no such thing; nor did the Krauts when they reclaimed Germany in opposition to Versailles, which was the whole point of their movement.  In short, a militarized movement acts as a vehicle to channel aggression in pursuit of group interests in the absence of a nation state and then to gain control of a nation state.


56

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 01:03 | #

Wandrin,

If I could get 1% of the media reverb and hyperbole from which your conflation originates, for the countless times I have published and recited the Mantra in public meetings, I’d be far less conservative in my estimation of its prospects.

My occasional antics and visual deployment of the vestiges of European tribalism are the only methods at my disposal for generating publicity. When I had a choice between addressing 20 aged civil rights activists, or 200 angry young anarchists, I thought it reasonable to attract the 200. In hindsight I can see that the results were, at best, only a marginal improvement.

So where does that leave us?

I’m certainly not going to stop employing the Mantra, but I will try cut back on my sieg heils, and I never wear kilts past Samhain, which I will observe this weekend.

This weekend will mark the beginning of a new strategy for me. I have invited all Oregon participants on Northwest Front’s White Nationalist Email List to visit my wife and I in our home during Samhain. I hope that a few will be able to make it. I hope that face to face communication with like-minded kinfolk will offer a new dimension to the array of possibilities available in the virtual domain.

So anyway, that’s my plan for now. I wish you could join us. Rest assured that, among other things, we will discuss opportunities to maximize the utility of the Mantra.


57

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 01:05 | #

They don’t know how to run a ranch. Hence Germany in the 30s and the coming economic collapse in Britain and America. All they know how to do is loot what others have built. My people know how to run a ranch. My people’s problem is their inability to conceive of levels of treachery above a certain threshold.

Well, you know that the Blacks built this country, having been kidnapped from an African Athens, and you Whites are just parasites living off the sweat of the slaves who suffered and died by the billions, and to whom you owe reparations in the trillions.  And I’ll even bet you didn’t know that Hannibal and Cleopatra were Black.


58

Posted by Wandrin on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 01:23 | #

Ezra Pound

The Jews and other nomadic people are DESERT MAKERS

Exactly. I’ve had a lot of contact with gypsies and they’re the same - just less clever. One, they view non-gypsies as prey and two they have no permanent emotional connection to the particular soil they happen to be on because they expect to move eventually. So they trash it.

Anyone who’s ever run a business or farmed or even gardened will know you have to constantly re-invest. You have to keep feeding the soil. They don’t do that (except in Israel) because they have no attachment to the soil they’re on.


59

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 01:25 | #

I think you overreach in assuming mastery of the populace is an end unto itself in the service and realization of one’s masculinity and not properly done, all things considered, so when necessary that populace may endure.  Surely if the former course is taken without the added sense of duty to pursue the latter there is a much diminished likelihood that populace will enjoy survival unto the generations - it not then being thought of as mere fodder for the rule of its would be masters.

Don’t worry, Captain - I’m a Nazi - not a snuff-sniffing aristocrat. 

In short, a militarized movement acts as a vehicle to channel aggression in pursuit of group interests in the absence of a nation state and then to gain control of a nation state.

Die Fahne Hoch!


60

Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 01:26 | #

Leon,

Is racial extinction primarily an epiphenomenon of the modern lifestyle? Or is it intrinsic to it?

But what is this modern lifestyle?  Is it simply an historical-sociological phenomenon?  No, it is not detached.  It is intimate.  It is psychological ... it is noumenon ... the weakening over an extended time-period of the foundations such that the house will not fall, but cracks appear in its walls, the damp enters, and it is liveable only if one has no memory of the pleasantness and warmth of the past.  And I am not talking about some long-lost golden age but simply about the plastic qualities that are productive at any and all times of good in Man, seeing, as I have mentioned elsewhere, that good in this unique respect is what tends to consciousness of self and bad is what tends to unconsciousness.

In other words, I propose a second morality beside, but perhaps not much different in detail to, the morality of the genes.  Such a morality would indeed have intrinsic to it the vivifying effects of consciousness of self, which most certainly include the unity and love of kind.

Does the ideology create the structures and mores, or did the latter create conditions for which multiculti can be seen as an ex post facto rationalization?

Neither.  The ideology furthers our estrangement.  But so does everything else - that is my point.  At its most poignant and powerful, this is a story of an entire race being slowly maddened by the circumstances in which they arise, until only more maddening can ever come out of it, and the descent turns into a death spiral.  And whilst we might look upon this comedy and say, “Ah, it’s moral degradation!” or “It’s a loss of faith and a death of custom” or “It’s Jewish ethno-warfare!”, still we are not looking at it full in the face.  Full on, it is, to borrow again from Petrarch, a “sleep of forgetfulness”.  Notus has called it the failure of our entire civilisation, but I think that may be by-product rather than the thing itself.  In itself, it is as I say.

I want to know if this is really all one big intellectual problem/error, or if the modern world, quite apart from multiculti ideology, produces a non-communitarian, short-term outlooking greedmonger, for whom kinist or nationalist sacrifice is no longer desirable or even intelligible.

But you make the greed-monger sound like something “other”.  He is us.  He is our brother, our son, our neighbour.  We cannot escape our kinship to him even if that kinship is unintelligible to the mind which has been formed in him, which is also our mind and the mind of all those about us.


61

Posted by Wandrin on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 01:28 | #

Jimmy Marr,

I’d be far less conservative in my estimation of its prospects.

Sure. I agree the odds of success are very bad. Apologies if i came across too rude.


62

Posted by Wandrin on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 02:10 | #

or “It’s Jewish ethno-warfare!”, still we are not looking at it full in the face

Just to say i think there’s two parts to this. If it’s possible to knock over the existing culture then the anger generated in the process will lead to - stuff - happening. And if successful that stuff should hopefully provide for short term survival. The foundation of long-term survival might well require a lot more thought but i’m focused on the first bit and the default state for human groups who believe their ruling class is of the same ethnicity is…consent and the default state for human groups who know or believe their ruling class is from another ethnicity is…rebellion.


63

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 02:11 | #

Wandrin,

Apologies if i came across too rude.

No. I’m the one who initiated the sarcasm. The tone of your response was perfectly appropriate, and it forces me to look critically at the negative effects of my strategies. I appreciate the help of your challenge, and hope that mine spurs you onward. I admire your work.

The Under Cover Lover tee-shirt goes very nicely with a black Utilikilt. Eyes forward.


64

Posted by Wandrin on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 02:40 | #

Undercover lovers of the world unite smile


65

Posted by Wandrin on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 03:07 | #

JimmyMarr,

Last thing, just to say it wasn’t the kilt or even the sieg heiling it’s the guy being 90. From a practical politics point of view that’s a no-win situation.


66

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 03:23 | #

When it comes to promoting the Mantra Originalsavagechick shows way more potential in a skirt than I will ever show in a kilt.

Oh well; At least I have the consolation of my “forked beard”.


67

Posted by Wandrin on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 04:08 | #

Oh well; At least I have the consolation of my “forked beard”.

Cool smile


68

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 05:39 | #

Wandrin,

Last thing, just to say it wasn’t the kilt or even the sieg heiling it’s the guy being 90. From a practical politics point of view that’s a no-win situation.

That’s good because that never happened. It’s a conflation of events, but I’m glad you brought it up, because I welcome the chance to tell my side of the story.

That wheedling Rabbi is no older than I am. He also had a full Hillel entourage, and he was attempting to filibuster the forum with pilpul and personally humiliate my 95 year old patron, Orval Etter. I wasn’t confronting an elderly man. I was defending one against the pernicious machinations of the much younger and villainous Rabbi.

For the best part of four years, I have been responsible for providing Orval’s transportation to and from the Forum. For his part, Orval used his emeritus professorship to acquire university meeting rooms. At first he could use a cane, then a walker, then a wheel chair, and eventually I had to bodily lift him in and out of bed, and in and out of my car. I had to shower him; comb his hair; brush his teeth; dress him; hold his bedpan, and change his diapers. Even now that his family won’t permit me to transport him anymore, and the university won’t allow me to speak, I still visit and tend to his needs out of loyalty.

I apologize for providing all these details, but I want to make it clear that I put a lot of effort into showing respect for the elderly.

On the evening in question, two speakers were scheduled to address the public. Even though Orval was not speaking, I had parked him in his wheelchair adjacent to the speakers’ table in a show of respect to him as founder and chairman of Pacifica Forum. Shortly after starting, the speakers were interrupted by the Rabbi, who was standing to the hard right of the stage and addressed a question to Orval, who could neither see nor hear him. In addition to vision and hearing problems, Orval suffers from bouts of senile dementia, and has insufficient lung power to speak in a public setting. There was no way Orval was going to be able to respond to the question, and the Rabbi, who knows Orval, knew this perfectly well, so he kept repeating iterations of his mantra-question for the benefit of audience. His questions spun around the axis of “We all respect the right of freedom of speech, but shouldn’t responsible people distinguish between free speech and hate speech, and don’t you think some of Pacifica’s speakers routinely cross that line?” Blah, blah, blah, blah ad infinitum in this horrible wheedling voice accompanied by slithering, limp wrested, hand gestures.

Finally, when I felt it had become obvious to the audience that Orval could not respond, I interjected that Orval had already implicitly answered the question by virtue of his having invited the present speakers who were currently entitled to have the floor. The Rabbi responded with “What are you; a mind reader?”

I responded: “Yes. I am a mind reader, and it doesn’t take me all evening to read yours. Sieg heil. Sieg heil. Sieg heil.”

At that point the Rabbi and his crew left and the meeting continued.

What more can I say?

Sieg heil!


69

Posted by Wandrin on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 05:46 | #

Ach zo.


70

Posted by Leon Haller on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 11:21 | #

To Jimmy Marr:

You asked, I answered.

I think we’re on the same page, Leon. What do you think about Northwest Front? (Jimmy Marr)

Jimmy,

Never heard of it, until you pointed it out. I read some of the website. Could be promising, but:

1. Weren’t people already hashing this about as far back as the 70s (then it was to be called The White America Bastion, or something)? Various neo-Nazi and Identity people, who, incidentally, are far more ideologically extremist than I am, went up to Idaho, and nothing much happened, except ultimate US Federal Govt harassment, the killing of Randy Weaver’s wife, etc.

2. My notion of the ethnostate comes about through WN emigration and peaceful demographic conquest of an already existent sovereign polity (eg, Australia or Uruguay have seemed the most promising to me). [I’ve discussed this at some greater length here at MR; maybe a search will find my comments.] The NWF idea seems to be talking about internal immigration/conquest, followed perhaps by racial cleansing and then secession. That is infinitely more difficult to achieve, especially as whites continue our slow-motion descent into slavery - or at least the status of a conquered people.

3. I strongly support racially conscious whites intentionally coalescing (“sending out the call”) in a given area, forming political and social networks, and unannounced militias for common racial defense, and organizing politically, albeit in subterranean fashion, to perhaps take over local GOP party orgs, school boards, etc. I’m sceptical if this will actually lead to the real ethnostate (it would certainly help to make the lives of the area’s whites more pleasant).

4. As for myself, I would probably pass on this initially, though I might be a “second-wave” emigrant (once tougher, more committed men like you or Covington, etc, actually did the hard initial settler work). I’m neither a pioneer, nor a hero, nor any kind of martyr. I have a very clearly defined set of objectives for myself to aid the movement for race preservation, most of which involve intellectual projects, the initial ones aimed at possibly gaining me a place within the broader conservative media (Haller is not my real name). I’m able to succeed within the commercial mainstream; as I transition to a different career, I think I can eventually be a kind of bridge between Hard Right conservatism, and WN. That is my goal, anyway, or one of them.

Relatedly, I’m also in the process of trying to get up an American (not white) nationalist organization, one which will utterly eschew any racism (and thus, if we grow, will be condemned by VNN, Covington, etc), but which will be an activist organization many of whose goals will be congruent with WN. We’ve got to wake up our countrymen to their dispossession, but we lose them if we go in too hard on race (just a fact of life, as I see it). Many of our fellow whites want to support an implicitly white agenda (eg, stop immigration, abolish affirmative action, resist multiculturalism, oppose welfare, shoot criminals, etc), as long as “race” is never mentioned. Hence, American nationalism. [I’ve discussed all this in private correspondence with GW.]

5. Although I would have wanted the US to have stayed out of WW2, I totally reject Nazism, both morally and strategically. Nazism needs to be buried. We don’t need new racial symbols, or flags, or ideologies. We just need to assert traditional values, as long as they aid white preservation, and are understood to be racial values, too.

A quick addendum: I’m not only a WN, or interested only in WN political issues. I am also a Catholic, and a serious conservative, and I have many intellectual interests to explore stemming from those identities, as well.


71

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:32 | #

Leon,

Weren’t people already hashing this about as far back as the 70s (then it was to be called The White America Bastion, or something)? Various neo-Nazi and Identity people, who, incidentally, are far more ideologically extremist than I am, went up to Idaho, and nothing much happened, except ultimate US Federal Govt harassment, the killing of Randy Weaver’s wife, etc.

I don’t know very much about this. Even though I was living in that area in the early 80’s, I didn’t know anything about white nationalism. The popular myth was that there were “Devil worshipers” in the woods around Hayden Lake. I had no idea what it was about.

I didn’t have a racial awakening until sometime around 2006. Prior to that I was an apolitical person with leftist sympathies. I started to get involved in the anti-war movement during the Bush administration and was shocked and appalled to discover the subversive strength of the Jewish influence there, particularly with regard to Palestine.

I got interested in Pacifica Forum, which was more even handed in its assessment of Palestine. I started to investigate media distortion vis a vis Palestine which led me to extrapolate that if the current media is lying, it is essentially journalizing a false version of history. How long had this been going on? That question ignited my interest in revisionism. The rest is history.

Right now I’m interested in Northwest Front largely because I live here, and my interest has recently been piqued by Michael O’meara’s Toward a White Republic, which pays favorable attention to the concept of a white migration to the Pacific Northwest.


72

Posted by Notus Wind on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 20:42 | #

Sam,

Irrelevant to what?

The present condition of Western society.

And what is… the problem?

That’s a difficult question but I try to give a partial answer here.


73

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Tue, 26 Oct 2010 22:28 | #

Thanks Dasein.

Writing the description was a good exercise for me because it has forced me to realize that my writing is a distorted view of reality. Because it is impossible for me to verbally recreate a multi-dimensional reality, I have instead resorted to attempting to recreate in the reader the feelings I experienced during the event. For instance, I don’t know if the rabbi really left the room after my salutations, or whether he just left my awareness. I’m just not sure. How do I really know if those accompanying the rabbi were members of Hillel? How many were there? Men or women? When I consciously look into my memories to discover more detail, they seem to retreat. What passes as memory is largely composed of emotional impressions associated with transient imagery.

This gives me a glimmer of insight into media and historical distortion. It helps me understand that some people who were deprived of media ownership in Germany during the 1930’s might remember it as surviving nine “death” camps.

Hopefully mine is not an egregious case, and hopefully the reader presupposes a certain amount of distortion in any anecdotal writing. I can accept that distortion is inevitable, but knowing this also intensifies my sense of unease in the knowledge that our journalistic class is dominated by a people of hostile ethnicity.


74

Posted by Leon Haller on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:15 | #

my interest has recently been piqued by Michael O’meara’s Toward a White Republic (jimmy Marr)

Is this a book? Sounds very interesting.


75

Posted by Leon Haller on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:55 | #

I got it. An article from TOQ. I’m way behind there.

I’m in favor of racial coalescing within the US, as functionally has been done forever at the neighborhood level. If a conscious coalescing in the Northwest really starts to happen, great! Indeed, something of an implicit nature already has been occurring, as many racially/ideologically/economically disgruntled white Californians moved to Idaho throughout the 90s and 00s.

Unfortunately, as Sam Francis pointed out 15 years ago, where whites move, jobs get created, and then non-whites follow. Non-whites have been migrating to ID, too (per my friends there). I suspect that this tandem process will continue (what’s to keep the non-whites out, pre-ethnostate?), making a future transition to a new Northwest White Republic improbable. I fear Sam Francis was right: genetic segregation is vital (to preserve our race and thus civilization), but territorial racial segregation (within the US) is unlikely absent unforeseen, ‘game changing’ cataclysms - and thus, within the US, the proper strategy is not racial separatism, but something like “Boerism”: ie, white supremacy, at least practiced within the white community itself (eg, we demand in-group loyalty, Race First consciousness, shaming and harassment of traitors, WN conflictual politics vis a vis other races). A white ethnostate will never be allowed to arise peacefully, and, fantasies of armed racial revolution are just that - fiction. They are fictive not because of the inadequate martial qualities or potential of WNs, but because of the contrast between the slow growth of white racial awareness, and the ongoing demographic inundation. A race between the ripening harvest, and the approaching jungle, as Wilmot Robertson expressed it - in 1972!
[I’d say the jungle was winning, though with the advent of the internet, the harvest has been ripening more quickly of late.] 

I say this not to be a downer, but because I don’t want limited resources of time, energy and capital being expended in ways unconducive to our ultimate goal of race preservation - especially when there are more useful activities and better approaches. 

I’ve penned some longish comments here at MR on the need for white emigration/electoral conquest of some foreign, sovereign polity as the last hope to prevent white extinction. So I do support the ethnostate, but I believe it must be brought into being by stealth, and within existing political boundaries and institutions, though the US is too diverse already, populous and politically stable in the medium term, to make ethnostate formation within the US strategically worthwhile.


76

Posted by Leon Haller on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:08 | #

Jimmy,

One last comment. Don’t give up your activism. Our race needs it as a prelude to any type of racial recovery. I’m just downplaying the notion of an ethnostate carved out of existing American territory.

Also, WN activism should NOT focus on shock tactics, such as appropriating anything from Nazism. It should be about simple truth telling, and making appeals to justice, and the white man’s own innate common sense, and sense of fairness. We are in the moral right, and morality among whites (especially white Americans) trumps mere recitations of dry scientific facts. The will-to-power posing of NeoNietzsche; the Hitler advocacy of Captainchaos; the desiccated, life-is-meaningless-so-we-create-our-own-meanings-despite-not-really-doing-so-because-free-will-does-not-exist philosophy of GW; the scornful rebuking of Christianity of Sam Davidson; the casual dismissal of God and man’s spiritual longings of Notus Wind; the ludicrous anthropomorphizing of genetic structures by seemingly everybody, except AWOL Fred Scrooby ...

Even apart from the many metaphysical errors I strongly suspect to be swirling about in these parts, none of these approaches is really going to amount to much in actually furthering our preservation, at least in the US, though the extent to which they might be tactically defensible approaches elsewhere merely accentuates the degree of the West’s degradation and disassociation (dare I say “self-estrangement”?) from its heritage.

I’ve said this before (to no avail, of course), but even the most hard-headed Darwinian or Nietzschean should be able to recognize the ethical superiority of whites to non-whites. It was from an early recognition of such on my part that I became a very precocious racialist. I was only ever attracted to White Power reactively and defensively. If non-whites were violently aggressing against us, then by (and with) God, we should defend ourselves! Fight Back! That was/is not only our right, but our duty.

Later, of course, I broadened my understanding to include an awareness that mass immigration was a form of government sponsored ‘structural violence’ against whites. But always, I was motivated in racial thinking by a sense of moral outrage, compounded of course by the lies and historiographical duplicity of multiculturalism, not to mention disgust at constant white appeasement of violent and disagreeable minorities.

My simple point is that, even for atheists and Nazis, we are going to win or lose in the realm of ethics. Most white people are good people (which, nota bene!, is why their survival ultimately matters); often ethically confused, never more so than in our times, but basically wanting to do the right thing. We must win on ethical grounds, or all the racial science will be unavailing. ‘Ought’ never finally comes from ‘is’.

And in America, the foundation of most whites’ ethics is Christianity (and in Europe, too, though the fools have turned their backs on religious truth and their own heritage; having done so, of course GW is correct about the need for a new ontology, or a new understanding of reality, including of what kind of a being Man is, and of the sources of his happiness). We will win here only by convincing those whites who are not racially/mentally defective (the defectives are a large proportion of our people, but possibly not a majority), only confused or fearful, that racial preservation is at least ethically permissible, if not morally mandatory. And we will do that by subverting the true religious subversives (the multiculturalists); ie, by showing that one can be both a Christian and a white patriot, that Christianity is not incompatible with active, sub-universal attachments (eg, to race and nation).

If WN is seen to be disallowed by Christianity, you can forget about it becoming a mass movement in the US.


77

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:36 | #

LH,

Also, WN activism should NOT focus on shock tactics, such as appropriating anything from Nazism. It should be about simple truth telling, and making appeals to justice, and the white man’s own innate common sense, and sense of fairness. We are in the moral right, and morality among whites (especially white Americans) trumps mere recitations of dry scientific facts. The will-to-power posing of NeoNietzsche; the Hitler advocacy of Captainchaos; the desiccated, life-is-meaningless-so-we-create-our-own-meanings-despite-not-really-doing-so-because-free-will-does-not-exist philosophy of GW; the scornful rebuking of Christianity of Sam Davidson; the casual dismissal of God and man’s spiritual longings of Notus Wind; the ludicrous anthropomorphizing of genetic structures by seemingly everybody, except AWOL Fred Scrooby ...

You neglected inclusion of your own pet fatuity, Leon.

Give yourself the same summary treatment and we’ll all grade your essay for you.

Or would you prefer the thorough excoriation that I can deliver?


78

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:43 | #

In the meantime, let us reduce the Hallerian argument:

1) Whites have innate common sense. [”...the white man’s own innate common sense, and sense of fairness.”]

2) White survival depends upon victory in the realm of ethics. [”...we are going to win or lose in the realm of ethics.”]

3) However, White people are ethically confused. [“Most white people are good people…often ethically confused...”]

4) And the foundation of most Whites’ ethics is Christianity. [”...the foundation of most whites’ ethics is Christianity...”]

5) But Christianity is not prescriptive of racial survival - it merely can be shown not to be incompatible. [“We will win here only by convincing those whites who are not racially/mentally defective…that racial preservation is at least ethically permissible...by showing that one can be both a Christian and a white patriot, that Christianity is not incompatible with active, sub-universal attachments (eg, to race and nation.”]

6) Christianity is thus an obstacle or irrelevancy to be gotten past or merely accommodated. So the simple truths of White innate common sense/fairness/justice must be relied upon.  But White survival, in simple point, depends upon victory in the realm of ethics.  And Whites are ethically confused.  But Christianity is the basis of White ethics.  And Christianity is not prescriptive in regard to racial preservation, so there is no victory to be had - only mere avoidance of the issue.  Again, White innate common sense/fairmess/justice must be relied upon.  But White survival depends upon victory in the realm of ethics, wherein Whites are confused, because Christianity is the basis of White ethics, and Christianity is, at best, merely ethically permissive or not incompatible with the racial preservation that has no affirmative basis in the ethics that are based in Christianity.

7) Conclusion: Leon argues, via circumlocution, that White survival is not to be had.

[But let us salvage Leon’s argument by stating it with more precision.  He errs by writing of “victory” rather than of mere accommodation.  And he escapes the circumlocution, above, by distinguishing between “ethics” and Whites’ “innate” qualities - the latter of which should perhaps be referred to as “proto-ethical” or “sub-ethical” and merely instinctual.

So Leon’s prescription comes down to an appeal to the instincts of Whites for racial survival.

Then we must, in compliance, discard all of this superficial philosophical superstructure and go for the gut.

In sum, per the implication of this enhanced precision in argument, we should see you all over at Stormfront and the Vanguard News Network.]


79

Posted by Sam Davidson on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:00 | #

The present condition of Western society.

That’s debatable. I’d argue that a major religious movement that helped bring down part of Western civilization is entirely relevant to the present condition of the West, especially since this movement still holds a tremendous amount of power. Compare this with the Enlightenment thinkers you believe to have been so destructive. How many people have read Hume or Kant compared to the New Testament? (Perspective - Can you make the kitty spin in both directions?...)

But I don’t think Christianity is the main cause of today’s decline.

That’s a difficult question but I try to give a partial answer here.

What I’m getting at is not the cause of our problem(s) but the problem itself.

I’d define the problem as racial decay. (via dysgenics, race replacement, etc)

If you agree with this statement then the next step is to diagnose the causes, which one assign to the Enlightenment, or Christianity, or the Jews, or etc etc…

And in America, the foundation of most whites’ ethics is Christianity

You have it backwards. Christianity became a ‘nice’ religion because that’s our innate character. If you give Christianity to savages (as shown above) they’ll turn it into an excuse to rape and murder. Biology creates ideas. This is materialism in action.


80

Posted by jimmy Marr on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:25 | #

Leon,

In addition to the TOQ article by the same title, Toward the White Republic is a book published by Counter-Currents containing fifteen essays by Michael O’Meara, in which he does a surprisingly good job of contrasting the viability of ethnostate formation with that of leviathan reformation.

But since I’m already in the Pacific Northwest, and the first stage of ethnostate formation is a coalescing of the white community in this area, my participation in NW Front amounts to nothing more than what I should be doing under any circumstances. In short, for me its a merely a vehicle.

While many disagree with me, I take the same approach to National Socialist Movement activities. Rather than spend my time criticizing these organizations, I focus my energy on limited participation and finding common cause.

Since both organizations tend to attract people who are younger and less fortunate than me, I try to approach them from the perspective of what I can offer rather than what I can receive. Both organizations offer structure and meaning to the lives of people in need. The sense of collective mission and pride creates a de facto system of peer review. Drinking is out. Drugs are out. Crime of any type is out.

For my own support and improvement, I turn to the senior voices I find here at MR. While it is sometimes unsettling to see so much disagreement among those I look to for guidance, I’ve come to believe that is precisely the value of this site; To externalize and chronicle the conundrums that will inevitably arise internally in the hearts and minds of current and future nationalists.

Without MR, people like you and me would run a higher risk of becoming as whacky as GW.

Maybe that is why he provides it for us?


81

Posted by Wandrin on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:22 | #

we are going to win or lose in the realm of ethics. Most white people are good people

I don’t believe most white people are good exactly. However i do believe white people have a need and predisposition for a unifying foundational moral / cultural / philosophical idea that acts as a binding and that moral high ground could be “good” if you believe in a good, which i do.

Siezing the moral high ground means becoming the priesthood of the dominant morality / culture / philosophy. Group policies all flow from and are judged against this.

If you have a fixed moral point then this foundational idea could be “good”, “bad”, suicidal or genocidal but the mechanism is the same. It’s a mechanism for group cohesion.

If you look at the relative success of the Dutch and Scandinavian groups they are basing their arguments on the liberal foundational idea which they are contesting against the “cultural marxism disguised as liberalism” foundational idea of the multicult. I don’t think that can do more than slow down our destruction but it’s better than nothing and i think it illustrates the point.

The multicult currently has the moral / cultural / philosophical high ground and policies aren’t enough on their own to challenge it. If any of your policies conflict with the hegemony you are automatically defined as “bad” in the culture. You have to challenge the foundational idea.

There’s no doubt a lot of potential candidates for this foundational idea but it has to contradict the multicult on a fundamental level on at least some points. For ethno-nationalists the multicult has conveniently provided that foundational idea itself through their elevation of the holocult. The implied foundation of the law of genocide being the implied right of unique peoples to exist.

It’s their own (pretended) foundational principle. They just don’t apply it to white people because their true motivation is genocidal ethnic hatred.

“Manifest destiny” - if that is the moral high ground then policies flow naturally from it

“Diversity is good” - if that is the high ground then policies naturally flow from that

“The English people have a right to exist” - if that’s the high ground then a completely different set of policies flow downhill.

One answer to “racist!” is “do the English people have the right to exist?” They can’t answer yes or no. Their way out of that would be to say the English people don’t exist already - mongrels etc - but that’s fine. Don’t lose your temper, just keep prodding them and they’ll dig their own grave proving their genocidal intent.

The unique peoples of the western world have the right to exist. Anything else is genocide.

the ludicrous anthropomorphizing of genetic structures by seemingly everybody

Amazon forest. Tribes fighting. It’s no different to red and blue anemones fighting over some coral. It’s just biology expressing itself through layers of abstraction. As human societies develop they find other things to fight over *as well* but biology always remains as one of those things underneath.

jews cannot co-exist on the same living space as white europeans without conflict. There are no doubt hundreds of abstract reasons but one of them is simple biology. On average, those jews who are least hostile to white people will be those with the most white blood.


82

Posted by Wandrin on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:28 | #

In short, for me its a merely a vehicle.

I think that’s a good way to look at a lot of things. There’s organising and there’s agitating. Agitating requires a consistent message which you pump out, with situational variations, using whatever vehicle is to hand.


83

Posted by Wandrin on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:43 | #

For my own support and improvement, I turn to the senior voices I find here at MR. While it is sometimes unsettling to see so much disagreement among those I look to for guidance

Evolution in action.

Except in our case there probably won’t be one key that unlocks the multicult everywhere. There’ll be different variations in different countries / regions.

I don’t think there is one correct answer. I think there is one correct answer for each region / country for the conditions that exist at that time in that region / country.


84

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:46 | #

The unique peoples of the western world have the right to exist. Anything else is genocide.

OK - we’ll preserve you as a perpetual underclass, increasingly impoverished and otherwise diminished.

Happy now?

[Well - that’s a start.]

Oh - so now you want to talk about fairness and justice, eh?

[Uh - yes, fairness and justice are only fair and just - wouldn’t you agree?]

I course - it is so by definition.

Now provide us with the world’s first complete and coherent definition of “justice and fairness,” please.

(I will be phoning up the Nobel Peace Prize Committee on your behalf, in the meanwhile.)


85

Posted by Wandrin on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 21:07 | #

Well - that’s a start.

Yes it is. It’s what communists used to call a wedge. You find a crack, slip in a wedge and then use the wedge to gradually widen the crack.

it is so by definition.

Yes, Mr Neechean Superman. *I* (or anyone else) define it to be so. *I* (or anyone else) define what God is. If enough people agree then it becomes so.

*I* define *my* God to be the commonweal and…

diversity kills.


86

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:19 | #

Yes, Mr Neechean Superman. *I* (or anyone else) define it to be so. *I* (or anyone else) define what God is. If enough people agree then it becomes so.

In this instance, one is agreeing upon that which is a vacuous pseudo-proposition by virtue of its tautological construction.

(i.e. and e.g., justice is just, and fairness is fair)

So, let’s have the non-tautological version.

(But learn some epistemological sophistication first.)

(Then you can become a Superman, too.)


87

Posted by Desmond Jones on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:21 | #

Christianity is not prescriptive of racial survival

It is not now, but it was. The evidence of this is found in John Rolfe’s consternation over his impending marriage to Pocahontas and the Virginia colony’s concern regarding miscegenation. It is also evident in MacDonald’s classification of the Puritan’s as a prosopographer’s dream.  However, it did not advance the notion of racial survival, per se, but focused upon kin selection. As a father, it is undesirable, as the Book of Ezra records, for your sons to take strange wives because ultimately it impacts the familial blood line resulting in exclusion from the community.

If you give Christianity to savages (as shown above) they’ll turn it into an excuse to rape and murder. Biology creates ideas. This is materialism in action.

Not necessarily good ideas.

The same high mental faculties which first led man to believe in
unseen spiritual agencies, then in fetishism, polytheism, and
ultimately in monotheism, would infallibly lead him, as long as his
reasoning powers remained poorly developed, to various strange
superstitions and customs. Many of these are terrible to think of-
such as the sacrifice of human beings to a blood-loving god; the trial
of innocent persons by the ordeal of poison or fire; witchcraft,
&c;.- yet it is well occasionally to reflect on these superstitions,
for they shew us what an infinite debt of gratitude we owe to the
improvement of our reason, to science, and to our accumulated
knowledge. As Sir J. Lubbock* has well observed, “it is not too much
to say that the horrible dread of unknown evil hangs like a thick
cloud over savage life, and embitters every pleasure.”

Charles Darwin

This is what the Spanish discovered in their first encounter with Mesoamericans, ‘a cloud thick with evil’ and fundamentally maladaptive.


88

Posted by Wandrin on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:44 | #

So, let’s have the non-tautological version.

The tautology is the point.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident”

Notice how those actual supermen conjured a God out of thin air.


89

Posted by Desmond Jones on Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:48 | #

Joshua 23:12-13

23:12 But if you ever turn away and make alliances with 1 these nations that remain near you, 2 and intermarry with them and establish friendly relations with them, 3 23:13 know for certain that the Lord our God will no longer drive out these nations from before you. They will trap and ensnare you; 4 they will be a whip that tears 5 your sides and thorns that blind 6 your eyes until you disappear 7 from this good land the Lord your God gave you.


90

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 00:15 | #

The tautology is the point.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident”

Notice how those actual supermen conjured a God out of thin air.

And with so little expenditure of effort!  Kaum zu glauben!


91

Posted by Sam Davidson on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 00:17 | #

It is not now, but it was.

Rolfe was referring to the Book of Ezra, right? That was a story about Jews, not Christians.

Further, Rolfe justifies the miscegenation as an opportunity to make Pocahontas a believer in Jesus. (I.e. Judaism preaches against miscegenation, but Christianity can be used to support it.)


92

Posted by Captainchaos on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 00:59 | #

Judaism preaches against miscegenation,

It is possible for non-ethnic Jews to convert to Judaism.  What if a nigger converts to Judaism and takes an ethnically Jewish mate?

but Christianity can be used to support it.

There are passages in Scripture were seem to strongly condemn exogamy.  For those lemmings who simply must have their Jebus that could be a powerful means of convincing them to eschew mudcegenation.


93

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:33 | #

Captain sir,

For those lemmings who simply must have their Jebus that could be a powerful means of convincing them to eschew mudcegenation.

I hear tell White Lemmings will jump off a cliff ‘fore crossbreedin’ with Tundra Lemmings which are brown by nature but tend to get extra muddy durin’ rut.

Notus Wind is pretty keen on such things but ya might wanna check with a seasoned outdoorsman like Hunter Wallace ‘fore ya set to work harassin’ Christians with this little known fact.


94

Posted by Wandrin on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:40 | #

For those lemmings who simply must have their Jebus that could be a powerful means of convincing them to eschew mudcegenation.

The other side have left the outer form of Christianity while gradually reshaping the inside to support the multicult.


95

Posted by Captainchaos on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:55 | #

The other side have left the outer form of Christianity while gradually reshaping the inside to support the multicult.

Tens of millions of White Christians implicitly agree with us.  If we insist they forsake their faith, or submit their progeny to spiritual castration (“breed out the faith gene”), we will drive them away.  However, if we throw them a sop to their delusions which gets them to do what we want, which is really what they want to do anyway but are now cowed, then that is a win, as far as I am concerned.


96

Posted by jimmy Marr on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 02:00 | #

throw them a sop to their delusions which gets them to do what we want, which is really what they want to do anyway but are now cowed, then that is a win, as far as I am concerned.

Norman Lowell mentions a related strategy in the newly posted NR videos.


97

Posted by uh on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 02:43 | #

‘Twas Wandrin the wise that said,

“I want a blood-based liberal democracy that incorporates the truth that diversity kills.”

??????
??????
??????


98

Posted by Wandrin on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 03:39 | #

CC,

Yup. Christianity can be turned in almost any direction over time. It’s the *form* that people have a craving for.


99

Posted by Wandrin on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 04:04 | #

uh,

That is what i would personally prefer but i don’t think that’s how things would go in the short term. If momentum could ever be created people would be getting increasingly angry at how utterly they’d been betrayed by their rulers. The anger means the end result is much more likely to be more along CC’s line. However it’s getting the momentum started in the first place which is the tricky bit.


100

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:39 | #

Wandrin,

The tautology is the point.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident”

Notice how those actual supermen conjured a God out of thin air.

I also take note, here, of what amounts to a Nietzsche-esque exercise in inadvertent mischief-making.

For, as perhaps you know, Nietzsche recognized a significant historic pattern of psychological self-indulgence - famously in regard to the highly variable commentary on the French Revolution - from which variety he deduced the infamous “perspectivist” principle of “no text - only interpretation”.

To Nietzsche’s credit, however (as we hope will be your own eventual good fortune at my hands), his maturity brought him ‘round to “conceiv(ing) reality as it is,” with its implicit recognition of the distinction between psychology and epistemology.

It would appear that such maturity lies before you, Wandrin, if I correctly hold you to standing in approbation of “divine” tautologies - an example of which is reproduced above.

In that event, you might be credited with recognizing that the indiscriminate mind dwells in the consolation provided by tautology (“all things work for good for those who love the Lord”) - as it does in adopting a “perspective” on events (the “Good War”) that is emotionally (ideologically/theologically) comforting.  Thus we have in the former a empty vessel (a “form”) to be filled with cartoonish distortions of reality - and in the latter we immediately have the substance of said distortion.

So what is wrong, we may ask, with the consolations of tautology and perspective, when we indulge, likewise, in mind-altering substances as relief and recreation from the banality of reality?

Well, the evolution of Civilization/High Culture is a process of aging, wherein the martial violence of the founding conquerors is eventually softened and the delusional lies of the priesthood are eventually exposed.

Thus, to the extent that martial virtues are sustained and minimal reliance upon priestcraft is thus achieved, the society may enjoy prolonged good health and form until its final moments - as I would hope is our mutual objective.

In conclusion, then, we may sagely condemn reliance upon suggestive but essentially meaningless and merely emotive nonsense such as ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident…” - since virtue is in restraining the downward slide of the sled that is the collective cultural vehicle, rather that in giving it added impetus.


101

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:51 | #

Notice how those actual supermen conjured a God out of thin air.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,...”

And I have long noted the irony of the pretension to possession of eternal truth therein - which pretension was immediately followed by the devising of a government regime based upon ancient models that had already shown themselves to have no such endurance.

For the founding regime lasted but three-quarters of a century, until Lincoln’s Federal Imperium did away therewith.  And another half-century was all it took to transform the American Empire into the Greater Judean version thereof.

But none of the supermanly conjurers seems to have left an effective legacy of forebodings as to the future that was already evident from the pattern of the past.  Perhaps Hamilton had some thoughts to that effect, but in any case, such wisdom did not find its way into the influential products of the period, and the fatuity explicit and implicit in those documents exposed their progeny to a swift end as a mere totem erected of its corpse.

Apple-pie, anyone?


102

Posted by Sam Davidson on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:20 | #

It is possible for non-ethnic Jews to convert to Judaism.  What if a nigger converts to Judaism and takes an ethnically Jewish mate?

Converting to Judaism is a bit more difficult than converting to Christianity. Historically, converts to Judaism have always been among the lowest ranking members of the Jewish community and their bloodlines did not intermingle with the priestly castes. Kevin MacDonald discusses all of this.

There are passages in Scripture were seem to strongly condemn exogamy.

What passages? The ones about Babylonian Jews?

Tens of millions of White Christians implicitly agree with us.  If we insist they forsake their faith, or submit their progeny to spiritual castration (“breed out the faith gene”), we will drive them away.  However, if we throw them a sop to their delusions which gets them to do what we want, which is really what they want to do anyway but are now cowed, then that is a win, as far as I am concerned.

Step 1: Identify sympathetic White Christians.
Step 2: Racialize them with supportive quotes from the Old Testament.
Step 3: Completely fail when someone starts quoting the universalist statements of Jesus.


103

Posted by Wandrin on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:41 | #

Neechean,

Meaningless waffle littered with the sort of words people use when they want to make meaningless waffle sound like something else.

Back to practical politics…

Three moments:
1. Griffin on QT where the black man was saying his views were disgusting.
2. Griffin at the election asked by some black women “are we equal?”
3. Darby attacked in an interview “you shouldn’t be allowed into Buckingham Palace because you’re racist.”

All of these attacks are based on the foundational ideas of the multicult to which there is no non-wriggly answer because they are truths held to be self-evident by the dominant culture. In another time and place they could just as easily have been attacks based on belief in transubstantiation or the Arian heresy. Foundational beliefs are equivalent to a God.

The foundational idea of the multicult comes to: diversity is good with no specified limit and anyone who says different is evil. This line has an internal contradiction because diversity with no limits amounts to attempted genocide on the people on the recieving end of the diversity. One line that could have been used in each of the moments mentioned above and which if accepted cuts to the heart of the internal contradiction would be:

“Do the English* people have the right to exist?” (*or French, German, Irish, whatever)

If they answer “yes” then you’ve placed a limiting condition on: diversity is good with no limits and anyone who says different is evil. If they answer “no” then they’ve admitted it is intentional genocide. The non-malign will say “yes” without thinking. The malign will want to say “no” but know they can’t admit in public that the entire multicult is based on genocidal ethnic hatred of white people so they’ll wriggle - which will look to the audience like they’re trying to avoid saying “no” - which they are. Another option with the malign is they say “yes” quickly then immediately try and go back to their original question. However once they’ve said yes you can keep dragging them back to that single point.


104

Posted by uh on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 17:03 | #

Wandrin,

But you know the sharper of them will just respond that that is racist baiting or there is no English people. What then? Can’t really win when the other side is so cynical.


105

Posted by Notus Wind on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 17:05 | #

Sam,

How many people have read Hume or Kant compared to the New Testament? (Perspective - Can you make the kitty spin in both directions?...)

Ha!  While I sincerely appreciate your sense of humor here I suspect that not many people have read any of those texts.  Regardless, I don’t think we can identify the destructive forces at work in our society by simply examining what books the masses (or even elite) are reading.

I’d define the problem as racial decay. (via dysgenics, race replacement, etc)

If you agree with this statement then the next step is to diagnose the causes

I think most of us agree that racial and cultural decay are just symptoms of whatever the real problem is.


106

Posted by Wandrin on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 17:19 | #

Step 3: Completely fail when someone starts quoting the universalist statements of Jesus.

Those universalist statements existed when white culture was completely different to how it is now.

Christianity isn’t a political religion like judaism, islam or Confucianism (sort-of religion) so the dominant culture will determine which bits of the religion get prominence and how they’re interpreted.

For example, you can imagine a sermon based on “love they neighbour” which is slanted to meaning kin and your immediate neighbours first, then gradually widening out in concentric circles from there.

The other angle with universalist statements is in theory they apply to white people too. What the multicult does is promote universalist values but then only applies those values to non-whites. The multicult version of Christianity does the same. Taking the statements they make and then explicitly applying them to white people do forces the reality out into the open.


107

Posted by Notus Wind on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 17:35 | #

Leon,

My simple point is that…we are going to win or lose in the realm of ethics. Most white people are good people (which…is why their survival ultimately matters)...but basically wanting to do the right thing. We must win on ethical grounds, or all the racial science will be unavailing. ‘Ought’ never finally comes from ‘is’.

Believe it or not, I agree to a large extent with what you’re saying in this paragraph; regardless of how any of us looks at the question, ethics does matter both as a political force and as a series of questions that will forever gnaw at the souls of men.  Perhaps if we were East Asians or Africans the political challenge it poses would be less salient but, as you are so fond of pointing out, “Western man is ethical man.”

However, there is still the question of how we got into this position, which I think in many respects has gone almost entirely unattended.  The mistake that is usually made in these circles, I think, is that people would rather substitute conspiracies that oversimplify the situation for real answers out of a sense of pragmatism.  In some small way I would like to contribute to a greater understanding of how we got here and what we need to do in order to successfully pick up the baton that the current liberal paradigm is about to drop.


108

Posted by Wandrin on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:08 | #

uh,

But you know the sharper of them will just respond that that is racist baiting or there is no English people. What then? Can’t really win when the other side is so cynical.

You’re right you can’t win the debate because they are vile disgusting creatures with no sense of shame or honor but it’s not them that matters.

It’s the audience that matters.

The aim is to try and neutralize or partially neutralize the power of the dominant culture on the audience. The enemy who you’re debating with is purely there to help you illustrate that the multicult is genocidal anti-white racism in disguise. You can’t win with them because they hold all the cards but you can win with x% of the audience.

To the audience the answer to the question is obviously “yes.” To the audience the other side wriggling around trying to avoid answering “yes” or going into a big rant about how the English (or whoever) don’t exist just helps to illustrate that the “universal” principles they pretend to believe in don’t apply to white people. If they talk about race-baiting then you can then ask “Do the Indian people have a right to exist?” or “Do Kenyans have the right to exist?” People will see on their faces that that would be an easy “yes” but the same answer for any white nation makes them squirm. If they talk about the English or whoever not existing then spin it out as long as possible “so are Pakistanis mongrels too or is it just the English? What about the Scots? Are they mongrels too? Is it just the English who don’t exist or is it all white people. Let them hang themselves with the audience.

In theory anyway. I use this as my lead-in to the genocide line with neutrals but i haven’t actually used it much with hostiles as the opportunity hasn’t come up.


109

Posted by Wandrin on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:19 | #

I think, is that people would rather substitute conspiracies that oversimplify the situation for real answers out of a sense of pragmatism.

That is more or less my view. I have no doubt that somewhere out there is a foundational philosophy that could both knock over the multicult and provide the basis for it’s replacement but in lieu of that i’m for knocking over the multicult with whatever is available and letting the chips fall where they may.


110

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:36 | #

Wandrin,

Meaningless waffle littered with the sort of words people use when they want to make meaningless waffle sound like something else.

What irony that a worshipful tautologist should extrude an indictment on that account!

You are to be congratulated, Wandrin, on perhaps the most ludicrous reversal that could have been managed!

Had your clever achievement been deliberate, I would have been compelled to forward your nomination for Jester to the Venue.

But regrettably we must reckon that ineptitude, rather than aptitude, occasioned this intellectual pratfall.


111

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:50 | #

Back to practical politics…

Yes, Wandrin, that’s what we’re doing here at MR - practical politics.


112

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 19:28 | #

I have no doubt that somewhere out there is a foundational philosophy that could both knock over the multicult and provide the basis for it’s replacement…

And that replacement would simply involve the Left in falling back on cosmopolitan universalism.

That would leave them theoretically vulnerable to discussion, once again, of intellectual and cultural superiority - around which they have maneuvered with post-modernist/multi-culturalist perspectives that deny any such universal standards.

However, the times are not what they once were, and it has become, more than ever, impermissibly impolite, ridiculously utopian, and culturally cretinous, to be other than sentimentally and symbolically nationalistic.

So the Left wins, no matter what.


113

Posted by uh on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 19:52 | #

Das stimmt.


114

Posted by Wandrin on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 20:52 | #

Neechee,

You still going on?

I could argue but seeing as you argue just like a jew i’ll demonstrate something instead.

Instead of trying to debate people who want to dance around trying to prove how clever they are and / or obfuscate whatever the discussion is about, the thing to do is argue like it’s a fight where the other person is allowed to move around but you have to stand in a 2 foot diameter circle and you lose if you step out of it. Stick in one spot and keep repeating your lines. The point is not the debate itself. You know you can’t influence the enemy or anyone who thinks like them. The point is to hopefully influence at least one person in the audience. If the lines work when you’re arguing with a conscious enemy rather than a teen ego then they won’t want you to keep repeating them precisely because they might influence one of the audience. So eventually they’ll retreat scowling.

With that in mind.

Three moments:
1. Griffin on QT where the black man was saying his views were disgusting.
2. Griffin at the election asked by some black women “are we equal?”
3. Darby attacked in an interview “you shouldn’t be allowed into Buckingham Palace because you’re racist.”

At those three moments asking the question “Do the English people have a right to exist?” would have been better than what was in fact said. That question or the explicit statement “The English people have the right to exist” works on a fundamental level and leads into the genocide question.

Neechee may have a better answer as to what could have been said at those three moments.


115

Posted by Guessedworker on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 21:18 | #

The left never wins.  I have slaughtered leftist arguments for years, and taken no damage to my own.  The only way they can even preserve the illusion of remaining in the game is either to play punch-bag or to censor or ban me.


116

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 21:52 | #

Wandrin,

You still going on?

Seemingly indefatigably - where error raises its ugly head.

I could argue but seeing as you argue just like a jew i’ll demonstrate something instead.

You flatter me.  But you have me at a disadvantage in attempting to reciprocate.

The point is not the debate itself. You know you can’t influence the enemy or anyone who thinks like them.

But I think like them - I speak their language: master-speak.

You can’t influence them because you converse in prole-speak.

The point is to hopefully influence at least one person in the audience. If the lines work when you’re arguing with a conscious enemy rather than a teen ego then they won’t want you to keep repeating them precisely because they might influence one of the audience. So eventually they’ll retreat scowling.

I see no point in addressing the uncomprehending herd - if you’re going to contest the running of the ranch, you have to drive your “wedge” in between the cowboys.  That’s the point of SUPERHUMAN

With that in mind.

Three moments:
1. Griffin on QT where the black man was saying his views were disgusting.
2. Griffin at the election asked by some black women “are we equal?”
3. Darby attacked in an interview “you shouldn’t be allowed into Buckingham Palace because you’re racist.”

At those three moments asking the question “Do the English people have a right to exist?” would have been better than what was in fact said. That question or the explicit statement “The English people have the right to exist” works on a fundamental level and leads into the genocide question.

Neechee may have a better answer as to what could have been said at those three moments.

Indeed.  The better answer would have been to have offered agreement in each instance and to have asked for the implications thereof.

This immediately disarms the interlocutor and requires him then to think as is not his habit nor within his capability.

This technique requires, however, the skill of one who argues like a Jew - so I counsel against its use by one such as yourself.


117

Posted by Wandrin on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 22:16 | #

the skill of one who argues like a Jew

It’s not skill. It’s a lack of interest in the truth. The value of debate is as a mechanism for getting close to the truth. jews already know what the truth is and want to hide it. They argue accordingly. If a person goes into a debate with jews they need to understand their opponent has no interest in the truth finding aspect of debate. Their aim is to hide it. Discourse is war. Therefore the aim of debating with them is simply to try and use them to illustrate those sort of points.

In your case it’s not because you know and want to hide the truth it’s just teen ego. However as your way of arguing is the same as theirs your way of arguing can be used to illustrate this point.


118

Posted by Desmond Jones on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:02 | #

Rolfe was referring to the Book of Ezra, right? That was a story about Jews, not Christians.

The whole bible is about Jews.

Step 2: Racialize them with supportive quotes from the Old Testament.

Ezra did not emphasize race. The emphasis was upon kinship. The concern was the well-being of the family.

Step 3: Completely fail when someone starts quoting the universalist statements of Jesus.

The universal statements, like Jefferson’s, are largely misinterpreted. The famous “There is no difference between Jew and Greek…” (in heaven). There is no difference between master and slave (in heaven). However, you are correct that currently there is no room to interpret these biblical passages, as they were written. The tools exist but their use is forbidden.

And I have long noted the irony of the pretension to possession of eternal truth therein - which pretension was immediately followed by the devising of a government regime based upon ancient models that had already shown themselves to have no such endurance.

What model has endured? The fundamental starting point is self-interest and kin. It’s true of the animal kingdom and of man. The Anglo-Saxon evolved a system of “‘non-kinship based forms of reciprocity’ associated with Protestant Christianity, monogamy, companionate marriage, nuclear families, a marked de-emphasis on extended kinship relations, and a strong tendency towards individualism”. From Italy to NE Asia the emphasis has remained, in varying degrees, upon kinship based reciprocity, and the triumph of nepotism. The world of kinship based reciprocity is largely ethnically homogeneous. The world of non-kinship based reciprocity is heterogeneous.


119

Posted by Captainchaos on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:19 | #

What passages? The ones about Babylonian Jews?

Review the Pentateuch, which clearly frowns upon exogamy.

Step 1: Identify sympathetic White Christians.
Step 2: Racialize them with supportive quotes from the Old Testament.
Step 3: Completely fail when someone starts quoting the universalist statements of Jesus.

These are the same White Christians who live in White neighborhoods, attend mostly White churches, home school their children, and mate with fellow Whites.  The “universalist statements of Je(b)us” seem not to have fazed them in pursuing their preferred style of life.  Which would seem to make the following course of action self-defeating and unnecessary:

Step 1: Identify sympathetic White Christians.

Step 2: Attempt to gain their support for racialism by informing them that their beloved religion, a cornerstone of the way they organize their lives, is the root of all evil and must be destroyed.

Step 3: Get out of their way as they stampede for the door.

My proposed course of action is not a trump card which beats all hands; it is a politic means of stacking the deck in our favor in relation to those whose actual behavior gives every impression they wish for themselves what we wish for our race: separation.


120

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:42 | #

” the skill of one who argues like a Jew”

It’s not skill. It’s a lack of interest in the truth.

Then you are doubly the fool in believing that skill is not involved and - in so believing or defining him thus - underestimating your enemy. 

You misspeak in writing of the technique as merely “a lack of interest in the truth” (as opposed to skill) when you concede that they “already know what the truth is”.  Thus their putative lack of interest does not address the question of alternative means (skill), but rather of ends, when you note that they “want to hide it”.

And so you have, in effect, not supported your point as to skill, but merely asserted and confused it. And followed it with a filibuster as to obvious points.  Perhaps you should turn to concerns other than debate.

Further, it is the case that advancing and defending an untruthful position requires much more skill than does the straightforward declaration of that which is logically coherent and empirically correspondent.

So our hopes for you are modest in the expectation that you will one day master the less demanding of the two disciplines.


121

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:01 | #

What model has endured?

None.

Which fact should have prompted explicit deliberations upon, and proclamations as to, the impermanence and/or vacuity of “self-evident” truths and “god-given” rights - and the implications thereof for the shape of future regimes on the continent.

But that is to expect too much consistency - hence the historic irony.


122

Posted by Guessedworker on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:16 | #

Neo,

I am not sure that Jews require that much skill to perform these argumentational acrobatics.  We would most certainly do so.  But it may be Eurocentric, anthropocentrically speaking, to view the Jewish “gift” in this area through the prism of our disadvantage.


123

Posted by Wandrin on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:20 | #

Neechee,

I won’t bother reading that. I’ll just further use you to illustrate the point i was making. If this was another arena and i’d made some point or other and someone had attacked it i’d talk to them a bit to find out if it was an enemy or someone simply misguided. If they were just misguided i’d debate / talk to them in the usual way. However if it’s an enemy (or a teen egotist) there’s no point in the debate process itself. The only point is to influence the audience.

So the sequence would be (after deciding the other person was an enemy whose aim was solely to throw up a smokescreen around the point and therefore not worth debating in a fair and honest way.)

Me: Make the point again

Them: Blah
Me: Blah
Them: Blah

Me: Blah + repeat the same point again.

Them: Blah
Me: Blah
Them: Blah

Me: Blah + repeat the same point again.

And repeat ad infinitum. Which in this case would be:

Three moments:
1. Griffin on QT where the black man was saying his views were disgusting.
2. Griffin at the election asked by some black women “are we equal?”
3. Darby attacked in an interview “you shouldn’t be allowed into Buckingham Palace because you’re racist.”

At those three moments asking the question “Do the English people have a right to exist?” would have been better than what was in fact said. That question or the explicit statement “The English people have the right to exist” works on a fundamental level and leads into the genocide question.

If they’re an actual enemy (as opposed to a teen egotist) and the point you’re making is damaging to them eventually they give up because they don’t want the point constantly repeated in front of an audience. Or ban you obviously if it’s online.

If it’s a very simple point, as all mine are as i want then them to be usable even by people who aren’t that sharp, then it no doubt gets very repetitive and annoying but it does work okay as a method.


124

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:22 | #

The left never wins.  I have slaughtered leftist arguments for years, and taken no damage to my own.  The only way they can even preserve the illusion of remaining in the game is either to play punch-bag or to censor or ban me.


May we see the hands of anyone amongst us who ever lost an argument on the net?


125

Posted by Wandrin on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:37 | #

I am not sure that Jews require that much skill to perform these argumentational acrobatics.

This will sound odd but a while ago i spent a chunk of time trying to figure out their psychology and one exercise i did was pretend i was some kind of WN secret agent from a buried WN base in Antarctica who was operating behind enemy lines in ***ZOG***

The interesting part of the execise being that you must think hard about everything you say before you say it but in real-time as every word counts, and you mustn’t say the wrong thing as if you say anything non-pc enough to get a PC reaction it counted the same as being rumbled as a spy. During this role-play exercise i could almost physically feel my verbal IQ going up a tiny bit every day.

I think that is one of the reasons they are good at word-juggling. Outside Israel they spend their life like they’re operating behind enemy lines.


126

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:46 | #

I won’t bother reading that.

But your mother says that it would be good for her little boy.


127

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:56 | #

one exercise i did was pretend i was some kind of WN secret agent from a buried WN base in Antarctica who was operating behind enemy lines in ***ZOG***

[But Mom would always want me to climb out of the trash can and wash up for supper before my mission was complete.]


128

Posted by Wandrin on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 01:16 | #

Nitchy,

I’ve made my points already.


129

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 01:27 | #

I’ve made my points already.

Having failed to grasp the most important of mine - which is that tautologies are pernicious vacuities.


130

Posted by Sam Davidson on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 04:45 | #

Review the Pentateuch, which clearly frowns upon exogamy.

The Pentateuch, otherwise known as the Torah.

My main point: the authority of Jesus Christ trumps all previous teachings in the eyes of Christians. You can be a Christian and ignore the 613 mitzvot observed in the Torah, but you can not observe these and reject Jesus Christ or his teachings.

The only people who do that are, well… Jews.

These are the same White Christians who live in White neighborhoods, attend mostly White churches, home school their children, and mate with fellow Whites.  The “universalist statements of Je(b)us” seem not to have fazed them in pursuing their preferred style of life.

Most White liberals live in white neighborhoods and marry fellow whites. They don’t smuggle baby negroes out of Haiti or dig wells in Africa like Christians, though.

Attempt to gain their support for racialism by informing them that their beloved religion, a cornerstone of the way they organize their lives, is the root of all evil and must be destroyed.

It’s not a cornerstone but a stumbling block. You admit this. These people force themselves to love other races but only from a distance.

I’ve never advocated WNs attacking Christianity… the only reason why I touched on this topic was to engage Leon Haller. And I only commented on his post because I value his opinion. If he were a troll or an idiot I’d have ignored him.


131

Posted by Wanderer on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 09:19 | #

I’d also recommend (along with a commenter far above) the excellent essay “Folk and Land” reproduced at Metapedia.

Excerpts:

Folk and Land: The Revitalization of Our Culture

The soil is the foundation of our European Culture, both in terms of practical sustenance and spiritually. The land has a mystical quality to which the Folk is rooted by ties of Family—of Blood—for generation upon generation. This is the meaning of that misunderstood and slandered concept Blood & Soil.

The Village emerges to fill the social and economic needs of an expanding rural population, to both sell produce and facilitate social communication. This is the beginnings of a culture. As the Culture gives way to Civilization, the symbols are no longer the land and its Family/Blood rootedness, nor the Village; but the Town becoming City, and ultimately (at the last, ‘Winter’ phase of a Civilization) the Megalopolis, drawing the rural population into its embrace, submerging the citydweller into a nebulous, alienated mass of proletarians and merchants without ties of land or blood and with at most a precarious notion of family. Above it all stand the new lords and masters: the Bankers, with their democratic political demagogues.

...
NS-Germany was the only major modern effort to address the decline of the Western Civilization, and to attempt an answer to the question of how to maintain a progressive, technological State yet return the Folk to the “Springtime” of its youth. Whatever mistakes, atrocities or excesses be attached to the NS experiment, the crisis of our time requires that we look at that experiment dispassionately to see what lessons might be learned from both its mistakes and successes. For the NS Reich was a conscious effort to return our Folk to the peasant values which alone can give health to our culture.
...
The real Germany was for [Voelkisch-Agriculture Minister] Darre and his supporters within the National Socialist Party not the Germany of merchants, feudal lords, cardinals, of Teutonic Knights bringing the mercantile spirit back from their Crusades in the Levant. It was the Germany of the peasant, and of the Peasant Revolt of 1525 which had sought to replace Roman, feudal law with a return to the old, customary German law under which they had been free.

Darre adopted certain of the views of Rudolf Steiner despite the latter’s opposition to NS. He opposed the industrialization of the farmer, artificial fertilizer, mass-produced grain, and insecticides. Goslar, a medieval town, became a new peasant capital, which Darre envisaged as the center for the formation of a Northern European peasant community. Festivals and farmers’ rallies were held here. Conferences on Blood & Soil were attended by representatives of Norwegian and Danish peasant movements.

Practical measures included large-scale land reclamation and harvest work undertaken by the youth of the Labor Service,where all classes of the young worked together. By the end of 1934 over half a million children from the cities and industrial areas had been sent on holidays to the country through State health programs.

“They saw, often for the first time, cattle grazing in the meadows, they felt the charm of the countryside, of the mountains, lakes and the sea. They had the unique experience of coming into contact with the customs of the peasantry, rural customs and festivities and with the peaceful charm of Nature, in contrast to the hustle and bustle of city life. Above all, it was the work of the farmer that turned out most impressive to the mind of the city child. The spirit of the city child struck roots, as it were, once again in the soil of its forefathers…” (Werner Reher, Social Welfare in Germany, Berlin, 1938).

It goes on to talk about the revolutionary “Hereditary Farms Act”, which aimed to allow families to remain tied to the land, and not be swept up in economic-migration to mega-cities.

The basis of the peasant revival was the Hereditary Farms Act. “The law takes the farm as a living cell in the folk organism.” The law ensured that indebtedness was reduced, and that farmland could not be confiscated. The law “takes fields, farm homesteads and cattle as a natural unit in the center of which stands the farmer himself. The union is regarded as a permanent one. Therefore the farm shall remain to the descendants or relatives as an inheritance in the hands of free German peasants.” Hereditary farms were defined as those no larger than 300 acres and capable of supporting a family of several children, so that “as large a number as possible of medium and small farms shall be spread over the whole country.”

An Act of June 1, 1933, in seeking to reduce farm debt and protect the farmer, ensured repayment would be from the yield without endangering the farmer’s livelihood. Property could not be confiscated by creditors, nor auctioned.

“Folk and Land”


132

Posted by Captainchaos on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:03 | #

Jesus Christ or his teachings.

Jeboo does not enjoin his followers to miscegenate.  Nor does he say he is the negation of the old law but its fulfillment.

They don’t smuggle baby negroes out of Haiti or dig wells in Africa like Christians, though.

Sure they do.

It’s not a cornerstone but a stumbling block.

It is a significant aspect of implicit Whiteness.  It can either, if approached in the right fashion, be transformed into an asset or more of a liability than it is now.  They will not give up their Christianity; they may well choose racialism.  But if forced to choose, it will not be the latter.  Which is my point.

engage Leon Haller.

Leon has stated in the past that he is agnostic.


133

Posted by Leon Haller on Fri, 29 Oct 2010 12:43 | #

Thanks for the responses and critiques directed to me. I plan to respond if I can get through today with some sanity left! I also need to engage with some of NN’s broadsides from the Duke Letter thread of 10/9.

I wrote a very long comment a couple of days ago, which I then somehow screwed up in posting and lost, leaving me still with lethargy in my limbs, and bile in my mouth. But the Old Culture needs its defenders, so I will try to rally soon. These are important issues. Y’all are opening my eyes to just how un-conservative much of the WN global community is. In the US, even ‘notorious’ ex-Klan Wizard Dr. David Duke routinely mentions his Christianity, and certainly never criticizes the Faith. Many European political nationalists similarly profess the Christian faith. Indeed, Jared Taylor may not be a Christian himself, but I have never heard of him refer to Christianity as a problem or an obstacle to white survival.

We need to have an entire post and comment thread devoted specifically to Christianity and race. It would be interesting to see the varieties of white preservationism present in the MR community.


134

Posted by Sam Davidson on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 00:57 | #

They will not give up their Christianity; they may well choose racialism.  But if forced to choose, it will not be the latter.  Which is my point.

And what do you think will happen when the flock begins to awaken to the reality of race? The good rabbi will ring the priest and tell him to do something about his crazy gentiles! Then the priest will say something like this:

“Anti-Semitism is incompatible with the lofty thought which that fact expresses. It is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we are all Semites”
-Pope Pius XI, 1938

How would you respond to this?


135

Posted by Wandrin on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 03:44 | #

Spiritually, we are all Semites

Not directed at me but politically i’d say the key was pushing the line that Jesus was a direct and total universalist refutation of jewish particularism - that their particularism cut them off from both God and Man and made them cursed - which psychologically it did (imo). This would only an argument to address to religious folks obviously.


136

Posted by Desmond Jones on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 06:40 | #

How would you respond to this?

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic Law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally.

According to long established RC church doctrine to believe that Catholics are the spiritual progeny of Abraham is a mortal sin.


137

Posted by the Narrator... on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:52 | #

We need to have an entire post and comment thread devoted specifically to Christianity and race. It would be interesting to see the varieties of white preservationism present in the MR community.

Posted by Leon Haller on October 29, 2010, 11:43 AM |

It’s been covered here several times in the past. My own article on the subject, for example http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/god_and_the_west/

The arguments tend to go round in circles.
.
.
.
.

If WN is seen to be disallowed by Christianity, you can forget about it becoming a mass movement in the US.

Posted by Leon Haller on October 29, 2010, 11:43 AM

Well, Christianity does in fact disavow WN, or any particularism for that matter.

But I would guess that around 90% or more of Whites who call themselves Christians do so in the same spirit that they call themselves Packers fans or fishing enthusiasts.

I’ve argued here before that the best way to approach the Christian Problem is to undermine its assertions and highlight its contradictions. Particularly starting with the Old Testament.

For example, in a related thread by Danielj http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/kinism_the_one_and_the_many/ I pointed out the following,

Interestingly enough, throughout the entire expanse of the Bible’s narrative, from Genesis to Revelation, never once does it touch upon the ‘why’ of creation.

Why did God create?

Seems an obvious question, yet never brought up or even hinted at. Genesis (the origins book) seems mostly concerned with the mechanics after the fact; why are there rainbows, why is a cow called a cow (cause that’s what Adam named it) and so on.

But if you were to take the text at face value, you have to consider that Man was restricted or confined to the garden only, and not free to roam the earth generally.
And as it was a fruit garden containing the tree of life and tree of knowledge, it seems that Man was created for the express purpose of tending to the Garden of the Gods. The trees of life and knowledge were for the Gods only.
This would also explain why Man needed a companion (“it’s not good that man should be alone”) and why that is in direct contradiction with the New Testament’s evolved presentation of God’s relationship to/with Man.

In Genesis it’s clear that God intended no special relationship or purpose for man, aside from that of employee-employer.

At that point, Man was without sin and stood in the presence of God, walking and talking with him. According to the New Testament, THAT is the exalted state of hallelujah for which eternity strives towards returning and which Jesus died for.

Yet in Genesis, God suggests that un-Fallen Man is alone and lonely.

In other words, un-Fallen -sin free- Man has no special relationship with his creator, nor is he intended to.

Of course, I always thought that one of the most humorlessly ironic passages, is that God declares Man’s alone-ness to be “not good”.

Then offers his solution, Woman, which causes Man’s downfall!

It does pose an interesting question though,

Which is better?

Lonely bachelor in paradise?

Or married dirt-farmer in the waste lands?

Seriously, I never understood why, if the whole point of Jesus’s death was to restore our potential for a personal relationship with God as sin-free servants in Paradise, how Adam could be called “alone” as he was a sin-free servant in Paradise who had a personal relationship with God???

.
.
.
As to a solution to our problems here in North America, I’m afraid we’ve reached the point where circumstances will sort that out. Whites are being increasingly and openly attacked and that will increase to the point where they’ll either fight back or be wiped out.

There isn’t going to be a political, philosophical or spiritual resolution, as Whites will be to busy (literally) fighting to survive to worry about the pillars of justification for their actions.

To use a season-appropriate analogy, it’s like the last few survivors of a zombie-infested city frantically boarding up the doors and windows in a warehouse surrounded by thousands of ghouls.
It’s survival instinct, pure and simple and unencumbered by philosophical horse&*@#.


138

Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 09:44 | #

Protestants may appreciate what Martin Luther had to say in his treatise On the Jews and Their Lies:

A person who is unacquainted with the devil might wonder why they are so particularly hostile toward Christians. They have no reason to act this way, since we show them every kindness. They live among us, enjoy our shield and protection, they use our country and our highways, our markets and streets. Meanwhile our princes and rulers sit there and snore with mouths hanging open and permit the Jews to take, steal, and rob from their open money bags and treasures whatever they want. That is, they let the Jews, by means of their usury, skin and fleece them and their subjects and make them beggars with their own money. For the Jews, who are exiles, should really have nothing, and whatever they have must surely be our property. They do not work, and they do not earn anything from us, nor do we give or present it to them, and yet they are in possession of our money and goods and are our masters in our own country and in their exile. A thief is condemned to hang for the theft of ten florins, and if he robsanyone on the highway, he forfeits his head. But when a Jew steals and robs ten tons of gold through his usury, he is more highly esteemed than God himself.

In proof of this we cite the bold boast with which they strengthen their faith and give vent to their venomous hatred of us, as they say amongthemselves: “Be patient and see how God is with us, and does not desert his people even in exile. We do not labor, and yet we enjoy prosperity and leisure. The accursed Goyim have to work for us, but we get their money. This makes us their masters and them our servants. Be patient, dear children of Israel, better times are in store for us, our Messiah willstill come if we continue thus and acquire the chemdath of all the Gentiles by usury and other methods.” Alas, this is what we endure for them. They are under our shield and protection, and yet, as I have said, they curse us. But we shall revert to this later.

We are now speaking about the fact that they cannot tolerate having us asco-heirs in the kingdom of the Messiah, and that he is our chemdath, as the prophets abundantly attest. What does God say about this? He says that he will give the chemdath to the Gentiles, and that their obedience shall be pleasing to him, as Jacob affirms in Genesis 49, together with all the prophets. He says that he will oppose the obduracy of the Jews most strenuously, rejecting them and choosing and accepting the Gentiles, even though the latter are not of the noble blood of the fathers or circumcised saints. For thus says Hosea 2:23: “And I will say to Not my people, ‘You are my people’; and he shall say, ‘Thou are my God.’” But to the Jew hesays [in Hos. 1:9]: “Call his name Not my people (lo-ammi), for you are notmy people and I am not your God.” Moses. too, had sung this long ago in his song [Deut. 32:21]: “They have stirred me to jealousy with what is no god; they have provoked me with their vain deeds. So I will stir them to jealousy with those who are no people; I will provoke them with a foolishnation.” This verse has been in force now for nearly fifteen hundred years. We foolish Gentiles, who were not God’s people, are now God’s people. That drives the Jews to distraction and stupidity, and over this they became Not-God’s-people, who were once his people and really should still be.


139

Posted by the Narrator... on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 12:08 | #

Don’t traditional Catholics believe jews provoked the Protestant Reformation to divide Christendom?
.
.
.
At any rate, Martin Luther still managed to illustrate the problem of the inherent universalism in Christianity,

“A person who is unacquainted with the devil might wonder why they are so particularly hostile toward Christians. They have no reason to act this way, since we show them every kindness.

.
.
.
.

“We are now speaking about the fact that they cannot tolerate having us as co-heirs in the kingdom of the Messiah, and that he is our chemdath, “


.
.
.
.
And words, concepts and names like,
Abraham,
Messiah,
Chemdath (I can’t even find a quick and clear definition for that on google)
Jacob
Gentiles
etc….
Are not indigenous to Europe or her peoples.

Yahweh was one of many Semitic gods worshiped in the middle-east, NOT EUROPE.

Look into the Ugaritic Texts. Yahweh was most likely originally named Yam or Yah and was one of the 70 sons of the Canaanite god, El, who had the title “Most High”. In the Ugaritic texts Yah’s chief competitor to El’s throne is his brother/advesary Baal.

It’s also VERY likely that the hebrews were a local Canaanite tribe and that their “adventures in the desert” were contrived during their time in Babylon, about 500 years BC.

The truth is, there was no Abraham, there was no Issac, there was no Moses, and there was no Exodus or bondage in Egypt. It’s all myth.
It’s also highly unlikely that David or Solomon existed, and if they did there were no more than tribal chieftains of a tiny primitive village that went completely unnoticed by their neighbors and in the records of that day.

This is all mythology from the Orient. It’s the fables of little brown people in near-Asian deserts.


...


140

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:43 | #

That is, they let the Jews, by means of their usury, skin and fleece them and their subjects and make them beggars with their own money.

T-BOM them,


141

Posted by Sam Davidson on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 16:11 | #

Protestants may appreciate what Martin Luther had to say in his treatise On the Jews and Their Lies:

1) Everyone acknowledges that mainstream Christianity is anti-racialist.
2) Anyone trying to be both racialist and Christian will be forced into a choice. (Most racialists, myself included, would not push someone out of the movement for being a Christian, but the Christians would not be so lenient with their own flock.)

How will we hold onto Christians when their leaders denounce us?

According to long established RC church doctrine to believe that Catholics are the spiritual progeny of Abraham is a mortal sin.

Then the best we can say is that the Catholic Church is self-contradictory, right?

Pope Pius XI continues:

“To this day, the coinage and the postage stamps of the country bear the figure of Mary, the Mother of Mankind. It would be all the more tragic, therefore, if a people so devoted to Mary, the Jewish Maiden who was the Mother of the Messiah, freely countenance cruel laws calculated to despoil and annihilate the race from which Jesus and Mary sprang.

“It is incredible that a people with such profound Christian faith, with its glorious history, with the oldest parliamentary tradition of the Continent, would join in a hymn of hatred and willingly submit to the blood lust and brigandage of tyranny. No man can love God and hate his brother. No one who hates his brother can be a faithful follower of the gentle Christ.”


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Posted by Notus Wind on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:30 | #

Sam,

Let’s see how you handle a few inconvenient facts.

That’s debatable. I’d argue that a major religious movement that helped bring down part of Western civilization is entirely relevant to the present condition of the West, especially since this movement still holds a tremendous amount of power.

Excepting a tiny minority, our people are not racially aware in the way that we understand the expression and can be thought of as existing along a continuum of implicit Whiteness.  In America, implicit Whiteness is positively correlated with one’s willingness to identify with conservative beliefs and traditional cultural institutions while American liberalism and secularism are negatively correlated with implicit Whiteness.  The generic White American who identifies as being secular is more likely to hate his people and is less likely to have White children and form White communities (albeit, implicit ones) than his ostensibly religious counterpart.

Forget about scriptures, religious doctrines, papal pronouncements, and nonsensical musings about our pagan past and focus your mind on the reality that surrounds us today.  Does it really seem as if a declining Christianity is what’s bringing down Western civilization in our time?

1) Everyone acknowledges that mainstream Christianity is anti-racialist.

So what.  Mainstream academic science is also anti-racialist as is the mainstream academic community of people who study Nietzsche for a living.  If we are to judge the worth of institutions and ideas by their mainstream forms in the present degraded age then I suspect that we’ll have to reject just about everything.  Are you prepared to do that?


143

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:09 | #

In America, implicit Whiteness is positively correlated with one’s willingness to identify with conservative beliefs and traditional cultural institutions

True.

Any good news to report?

Does it really seem as if a declining Christianity is what’s bringing down Western civilization in our time?

In the sense that the incapacity of “Christians” - and of all other slave moralists - to govern themselves without resort to whoring with the residue of Babylonian culture, is bringing the West to a precipitate end rather than a mellow retirement.


144

Posted by PF on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 23:11 | #

Notus wrote:

The generic White American who identifies as being secular is more likely to hate his people and is less likely to have White children and form White communities (albeit, implicit ones) than his ostensibly religious counterpart.

Please help me crack this nut Notus.

Low income correlates with low IQ. Low income also correlates with higher religiosity. High income correlates with lack of religiosity. Low income and low IQ also correlate with earlier age of pregnancy - I assume also with higher number of children per woman.

So there is this narrative within white nationalism, that secular white nationalists are not reproducing quickly enough, and secular people tend to be self-hating. All of this is used to support the argument for the racial value of Christianity.

To what extent is this observation just an extension of the trend that:

1) low IQ people tend to be religious
2) low IQ people have more children
3) low IQ people are de facto more immune from significant shifts in political ideology, because they do not yet understand enough about the world to realize the significance of politics - intellectually.

Take me, I’m a high IQ person. Everything indicates that I would just naturally tend to be less religious (I am) and that I will defer procreation until 30 (I likely will). That would likely happen regardless of our precarious racial situation. Saying that I’m less likely to form a white community is masking another effect, which is the urban>rural gradient.

When the effects of these gradients are removed, to what extent are these implicitly white, traditional, white-community-forming, political-correctness-immune, fecund rural whites just the brawlin’, snortin’ left side of our bell curve?

I’m going to go a step further. You and I both know that the cultural weapons crafted by Judaic thought and by whatever other trends have brought us here, were weapons to which urban, secular whites were especially vulnerable. This is probably because these same whites represent, or used to represent, our smart fraction - the people holding positions of influence in major cities and determining the direction of our culture. For a whole host of reasons, these people are the people targeted by these weapons. So of course “we” secular whites are also the most endangered by them, the most heavily and thoroughly destroyed by them. They were created within and intended for the milieu of *our* cultural heritage; Marxism and Critical theory were made to succeed in London, Frankfurt, Vienna, Paris and New York, not Oklahoma and Nebraska, where no critical mass of people would have the background to interface with what these theories were saying.

So I see this newfound longing and respect of white nationalism for Christianity as a worship of the white hive-mind from afar. The hive mind is rural, yes its still Christian, yes its immune from sophisticated cultural attack, yes it tends to produce lots of children - most of these things are the blessings that accrue to its advantage, no small part of which is that it was either too unintelligent or home-hugging and not upwardly mobile enough to participate in the cultural advance that made us vulnerable to these trends in the first place.

I have an image in my mind. Fifty men are trapped on the side of a cliff. Some guys advanced in fearlessness towards a ledge, and were kicked off by enemies - now the people who remained behind in the cave are being lauded for never making the effort. Its too bad because if you are going to need to progress to further ledges in the rest of your evolutionary history, or if the cave should provide insufficient protection (i.e. retreating into rural Christianity causes us to lose all cultural control and effectively cede America completely to the Other), then these rural whites are not the warriors we were looking for. Thats what I’m made to think of when someone extolls the amazing implicit whiteness of rural America.


145

Posted by Wandrin on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 23:40 | #

“There isn’t going to be a political, philosophical or spiritual resolution, as Whites will be to busy (literally) fighting to survive to worry about the pillars of justification for their actions.”

Maybe so but every white person who is woken up or partially woken up beforehand represents a slight improvement to the odds of winning. And part of that process involves weakening the hold the dominant culture has on people.


“At any rate, Martin Luther still managed to illustrate the problem of the inherent universalism in Christianity”

A universalism which can be flipped round and used as a tool. The multicult uses the language of universalist principles but doesn’t apply those principles to white people. You can use that contradiction to undermine them. The same goes for church groups.

You don’t need to espouse a principle to use it as a weapon against people who do. For example left-liberals hounding an avowedly Christian politician into resigning over an extra-marital affair when the hounders themselves don’t care about it. They don’t say everyone should marry and be faithful they attack on the basis of people not living up to their own stated principles.


“How will we hold onto Christians when their leaders denounce us?”

Same as freeing people from the multicult. Same as the multicult is currently doing to the Catholics over abusive priests. You undermine the moral authority of those leaders first.


146

Posted by Guessedworker on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 23:40 | #

PF,

To complicate things further ...

Not every urban white person is an urbane white person.  What is the IQ of the blue collar white population?  What is its religious profile?  Its fertility?  How does it compare with its rural equivalent?


147

Posted by Al Ross on Sat, 30 Oct 2010 23:46 | #

Interesting chunk of papal bull from Desmond. Of course, the Vatican’s views are subject to change in matters of theology and the RC Church was at one time so eminently sensible that it prohibited its followers from actually reading the Bible.


148

Posted by Notus Wind on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 01:19 | #

PF,

First of all, I should preface all my remarks with the caveat that everything I have to say about Christianity and its cultural impact is almost entirely within the confines of White Protestant America, which is the true extent of my experience and understanding.

All of this is used to support the argument for the racial value of Christianity.
...
Thats what I’m made to think of when someone extolls the amazing implicit whiteness of rural America.

My aim is much more modest than what your comments suggest.  All I am trying to do is point out the inconsistency between what Sam is implying - that [a declining] Christianity is bringing down Western civilization - and the fact that, in America, having healthier racial values and beliefs is positively correlated with religiosity in the main.  This is not to say that I am by any means satisfied with the model of implicit Whiteness that rural America has carved out for itself nor am I trying to make any kind of grand assessment about the racial value of Christianity for Western peoples the world over.

When the effects of these gradients are removed, to what extent are these implicitly white, traditional, white-community-forming, political-correctness-immune, fecund rural whites just the brawlin’, snortin’ left side of our bell curve?

The left half of the bell curve for what variable?

Regardless, even if you control for all the relevant variables I believe that this phenomena is best explained by the fact that - once again, in America - secular cultural forces are the most heavily infected with radical egalitarian, anti-Western memes (as you identified in Marxism and Critical Theory).  In general, to become more secular in contemporary America is to put oneself in closer proximity to the ideas that really are bringing Western civilization down; of course, this need not always be the case it is only our situation at the moment.

...to participate in the cultural advance that made us vulnerable to these trends in the first place.

Let’s agree to call it a cultural advance when it becomes one.  Until that happens those among us who have decided to stay behind in the cave while their urban “betters” jump off the ledge and into the Judaic abyss that’s been prepared for them have proven themselves wise (if not well-educated) by their actions.


149

Posted by Notus Wind on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 01:34 | #

NN,

Any good news to report?

I wish.

...and of all other slave moralists…

If I understand you right, the problem isn’t Christianity per se but rather the slave morality that lies underneath all our systems (both Christian and secular).


150

Posted by Sam Davidson on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 02:43 | #

Excepting a tiny minority, our people are not racially aware in the way that we understand the expression and can be thought of as existing along a continuum of implicit Whiteness.  In America, implicit Whiteness is positively correlated with one’s willingness to identify with conservative beliefs and traditional cultural institutions while American liberalism and secularism are negatively correlated with implicit Whiteness.

We should work on increasing the tiny minority.

Forget about scriptures, religious doctrines, papal pronouncements, and nonsensical musings about our pagan past and focus your mind on the reality that surrounds us today.

Forget about anything that can even be remotely used to identify Christianity! Clever rhetoric.

Does it really seem as if a declining Christianity is what’s bringing down Western civilization in our time?

I have already answered this multiple times.

You’re implying that I’m a bitter pagan blaming our current woes on Christianity. That’s not true.
-October 25, 2010, 09:05 PM

But I don’t think Christianity is the main cause of today’s decline.
-October 27, 2010, 05:00 PM

So what.  Mainstream academic science is also anti-racialist as is the mainstream academic community of people who study Nietzsche for a living.  If we are to judge the worth of institutions and ideas by their mainstream forms in the present degraded age then I suspect that we’ll have to reject just about everything.  Are you prepared to do that?

Science was not founded by a demi-God born of a Jewish mother. I can reject Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin without rejecting Lucretius, Newton, Darwin, Murray, etc.

But let’s say that in 33AD some man claimed to be ‘the Scientist’ and created a body of work that was held to be the word of God. It would be absurd for me to simultaneously reject this man’s teachings while still supporting Scientism. And that’s the inner conflict that a WN Christian has to deal with.

Same as freeing people from the multicult. Same as the multicult is currently doing to the Catholics over abusive priests. You undermine the moral authority of those leaders first.

Well, you can convert people by pointing out their worldview is false. That works. But one can’t do this without shattering their beliefs. I’m asking how we can allow White Christians to retain their religion while bringing them into racialism. This is only possible through doublethink. Most decent White people are not capable of this.


151

Posted by PF on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 02:48 | #

Notus wrote:

In general, to become more secular in contemporary America is to put oneself in closer proximity to the ideas that really are bringing Western civilization down.

To become more secular in America is to put oneself in closer proximity to ideas in general.

It is the leaving behind of Christianity that first even opens one up to ideologies, politics and world-theories of any kind. Insofar as white man has opened himself up to rational discourse and the interplay of ideas at all, it has usually - although not in all cases - lead to his increasing secularization.

Thats why we - speaking for secular urban whites - are vulnerable, because we do not inherent a world-model that is religious. By its nature it is more open to change and thus to capture by hostile powers.

Let’s agree to call it a cultural advance when it becomes one.  Until that happens those among us who have decided to stay behind in the cave while their urban “betters” jump off the ledge and into the Judaic abyss that’s been prepared for them have proven themselves wise (if not well-educated) by their actions.

It definitely was a cultural advance, only it took place on channels that you have reasoned subsequently not to matter. Many of these areas of advancement are intangible or only accessible to rarified perception, such as advances in arts and heart-culture, and advances in intellectual culture which are subtle but important. As a general rule with human beings, anything that doesnt immediately produce a tangible reward for their cause celebre will be invalidated.

If it were possible for the intellectual discourse of the rural Midwest to somehow be distilled and decanted, and held up against that of the cities prior to 1950, I dont doubt that there are several aspects which you would have to find superior in the discourse of the cities. I’m aware however that the whole calculation is being biased by a deeper consideration, which I will attempt to address now.

I take it a person on this board will invalidate any development that he believes has the tendency not to avert our present predicament. This is also called Decadence Critique, it essentially hinges on the belief that by adopting a certain set of beliefs, poses and mores, one group of whites living at a certain time became in some essential sense inferior to their predecessors. Its determined by outside metrics such as how well we withstand the onslaught of foreign races. Put another way, the job of pre-1950s whites was to develop a culture such that our present moment of existence would never come into being. All their actions are judged retrospectively in this light. If they made an advance in something subtle that doesnt immediately offer a connection to Our Survival, then their worth as people will be invalidated by comparison with vestigial whites, who, it is reasoned, by virtue of being invulnerable to the onslaught of critiques and theory, were therefore better men. You could quite reasonably say that the whole development of sensibility which occurred from Whenever-I-Discern-The-Decadence-As-Having-Begun to Whenever-I-Discern-It-As-Having-Reached-Its-Peak, is registered as a negative development by virtue of increasing our vulnerability. The country boy is instead held up as a model of psychological health.

Some people call this romance de la bue (sp?), or romance of the mud. It is the same thinking that led to the glorification of gangsters and criminals in 80’s/90s American culture (the Godfather, the Sopranos) and to the glorification of whiggerdom and gangsters in 90’s and 2000s American culture. The idea is to retreat from advances in sensibility because they lead to a weakening of the whole core of the man. The metric that whiggers use is the ability to ‘roll up on’ a chick with self-confidence and/or project aggression in tense urban settings so people leave you alone - its better to have a brain from 40,000 years ago if you want to do these things well; the metric racialists use is How-Does-This-Help-Avert-Our-Present-Disaster, for which, they reason, its better to have the brain of a rural fisherman from the 1820s. There is something dishonest about an evaluative framework that is so blatantly self-serving.

All one really wants is an excuse to run into the arms of the teleological route-to-success that one finds most attractive. For a rural white person in the embrace of Decadence Critique, they might want to see some cartoonish images of urban whites - e.g. a metrosexual - which will justify their abhorrence and turning away from urban secular white culture generally. Judaic media certainly gives us enough of these images by constantly focusing on the most decadent elements of this culture.

To divulge where my teleology lies, my family is partly sprung from an inter-generational conflict over Christianity - a tale of relatively poor origins and strong, strict beliefs. For me to go back to Christianity is no movement towards strength, in my mind its a movement towards dogma, enforced fake social conscience, and literal poverty, since these things went together back in the day. I guess what some people are telling me is that my great-great grandfather was a more strong white man, because he worked on a farm in Appalachia and demanded everyone live by the Bible. Apparently, I’m degenerate compared to him - by this reasoning. Because I look at porn occasionally and listen to rap music occasionally, right? I mean, these things are how we judge the worth of a man, do we not? So y’all are basically with my g-g grandfather, eh? (mixed regionalisms representing the movement north).

I’m not so convinced. Put it this way: the romance de la bue for vestigial whites is totally understandable as a psychological reaction to modern times, and an attempted immune reaction and act of self-defense against these times. As with most anything though, if you are willing to be more perspicacious, it will break down. Its an attempt to find oneself by establishing fixed reference points based on selectively perceived images and migrating towards one (the Strong Farmer) and away from another (the Degenerate White). I challenge rural whites to move en masse to our brown cities, be exposed to the ‘cultural accelerants’ and non-stop programming that we are, and maintain themselves with a lower rate of attrition than we do. Urban whites are at the burning point, at the point where society is constantly breaking down, at the point of attack for the whole foreign animus, and I think its a lack of sympathy that rails against them for not always being able to resist these forces.


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Posted by Wanderer on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 03:35 | #

PF wrote:
Low income correlates with low IQ. Low income also correlates with higher religiosity. High income correlates with lack of religiosity.

You’re just assuming this because of your own biases.

According to this research, the exact opposite is actually true—i.e., among whites, higher income equals more religious.

Mean church attendance score by race/ethnicity and socioeconomic status

Whites
Low 3.15
Middle 3.49
High 3.73

Blacks
Low 4.27
Middle 4.47
High 4.90

Mex-Ams
Low 3.81
Middle 3.73
High 3.79

Whites are the least churchgoing, and blacks are the most. If you assign a ranking to races and are comparing them, religiosity seems low-status.

But the plot thickens. If you look at whites alone, religiosity increases with socioeconomic status. This is also the case with blacks. By contrast, low-status Mex-Americans go to church as often as their high-status counterparts.  So, for blacks and whites, if you are comparing yourself to other members of your race, religiosity is a high-status activity.


153

Posted by Frank on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 03:42 | #

When universities were Christian, nobles would fear sending their children there lest they become monks (and have no children).

Now that universities are secular, education correlates with atheism and anti-racism. Similarly, IQ (I assume) and urban location correlate with level of education.

problem isn’t Christianity per se

What sort of social structure is proposed, and how will it be maintained?

I fear that at least damaging, nationalist structures will be undermined; and at most damaging new, anti-nationalist structures will be formed.


154

Posted by Frank on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 03:46 | #

Wanderer,

You’re just assuming this because of your own biases.

Yea, the proper criticism of religion is it’s a delusion, especially a social delusion, not something stupid. I’m not sure of the exact definition of religion used here (is it merely that which is outside agnosticism?)


155

Posted by Wandrin on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 04:20 | #

I’m asking how we can allow White Christians to retain their religion while bringing them into racialism. This is only possible through doublethink. Most decent White people are not capable of this.

Except they did for centuries. They were Christian and racialist for centuries. Christians quite happily slaughtered each other for centuries as well despite all the turn the other cheek stuff.

Most people aren’t religious about their religion. It’s a cultural, social and luck thing. People are quite capable of compartmentalising. They did it for centuries.

The churchs have surrendered to the multicult now but were they the vanguard of the change or the rearguard? Seems to me the churchs were the ones trying to hold back the multicult all these years until recently. It seems a bit odd to blame Christianity for x and y when Chrisitianity opposed x and y for centuries and only surrendered 60 years after cultural marxists gained control of the cultural high ground through media and education.

However that was then. It is trickier now because now the multicult has “turned” the churchs the congregations have two sets of conditioning working on them at once. Maybe that does mean it is better to try and undermine the faith but even if so a direct frontal charge just makes people defensive and angry.

I’ve thought about this before. If i was living in the bible belt my WN activism would actually be setting up a church and my core would be something like:
—jesus as direct and total rejection of jewish particularism
—love thy (literal) neighbour, kith and actual neighbours first
—riffs on charity begins at home e.g man with a hundred sheep gives them away to charity compared to a man with a hundred sheep who keeps them, breeds them each year and is then able to give 50 a year to charity ad infinitum

People would come to it from other churchs because it would satisfy the cultural and social forms while fitting in better with their interests.


156

Posted by Notus Wind on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 04:49 | #

Sam,

I have already answered this multiple times.

My apologies.  I think my arrow missed you and hit PF instead (sorry buddy).

Sam: 1) Everyone acknowledges that mainstream Christianity is anti-racialist.

Notus: So what.  Mainstream academic science is also anti-racialist as is the mainstream academic community of people who study Nietzsche for a living.

Sam: Science was not founded by a demi-God born of a Jewish mother. I can reject Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin without rejecting Lucretius, Newton, Darwin, Murray, etc.

You concede the point then.


157

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:15 | #

It’s an attempt to find oneself by establishing fixed reference points based on selectively perceived images and migrating towards one (the Strong Farmer) and away from another (the Degenerate White).

Someone once observed that the American went straight from savagery to degeneracy - with no civilization in between.


158

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:39 | #

If I understand you right, the problem isn’t Christianity per se but rather the slave morality that lies underneath all our systems (both Christian and secular).

“Overmen/Uebermenschen refers to the historic warrior nobility/aristocracy of all politically-advanced cultures, who, by virtue of their having predatorily conquered and stratified settled societies at the foundation of their regimes, formed the basis for “every elevation of the type ‘man’,” according to the account given by Nietzsche. These masters of violence, in a world whose lower, slavish orders were and are inescapably governed by none other than the lies of priests and the violence of nobles, need not resort to the theological and ideological illusions employed by the former and may thus adopt the clear-eyed grasp of the world that Nietzsche’s “Bird of Prey” has with regard to the tremulous, “good” (tasting) “lamb” that reciprocates with a hysterical view of the hungering raptor as the blackest of “evil”. Thus the master and his “master morality” are “Beyond Good and Evil” and so avoid the destructive, apocalyptic distortions of reality that are required of “slave morality” in all its forms (principally in the eschatological expectations of an escape to “freedom” and “liberation” from oppression and repression in an immanent (Christian) Kingdom of God or an egalitarian (Liberal/Socialist/Pacifist/Anarchist/Communist) Utopia of Man to come).” [Become Superhuman]


159

Posted by Notus Wind on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:50 | #

PF,

Good writing on your part.  But please keep in mind that we’re now far afield from my little observation.

I take it a person on this board will invalidate any development that he believes has the tendency not to avert our present predicament.

Far be it from me to not acknowledge the advancements in sensibility that have been made.  They have been made.  However, the whole thing comes to us as a package deal so you can’t consider the benefits in isolation from the costs.

these things are the blessings that accrue to its advantage, no small part of which is that it was either too unintelligent or home-hugging and not upwardly mobile enough to participate in the cultural advance that made us vulnerable to these trends in the first place.
...
The country boy is instead held up as a model of psychological health.

If, at the end of the day, the country boy is all that’s left then hasn’t history cast her judgment?  We may bitterly complain but we must also concede that perhaps even Natural Selection works in mysterious ways.

To become more secular in America is to put oneself in closer proximity to ideas in general.
...
Urban whites are at the burning point, at the point where society is constantly breaking down, at the point of attack for the whole foreign animus, and I think its a lack of sympathy that rails against them for not always being able to resist these forces.

You’re forcing my hand here.  Yes, I do hold something of a deep animus against “the cities” for the following reasons:

(1) Moral cowardice.  Their total surrender to the Jewish culture of critique is more than enough to render them worthy of scorn.  At least the hayseeds held out as long they could.

(2) Intellectual pretense.  I have been around “the cities” long enough to know that urban Whites generally believe what they are told to believe and seldom have the courage to think for themselves, yet they fashion themselves so superior to the hayseeds for just this reason.

(3) Lack of patriotism.  They tend to hate their rural brethren who they perceive as being little more than a mass of stupid White people.  It’s never a pretty site when these sorts of feelings come out in public.

Once again, I feel that I must emphasize that we’re talking about a division between the urban and rural in America.  My suspicion is that the situation in Europe is quite different.


160

Posted by Wandrin on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 06:00 | #

Once again, I feel that I must emphasize that we’re talking about a division between the urban and rural in America.  My suspicion is that the situation in Europe is quite different.

My guess is it would vary from country to country. France i imagine would be similar to America in this because they preserved their small farmer caste whereas Britain didn’t.


161

Posted by Frank on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 06:25 | #

(3) Lack of patriotism.  They tend to hate their rural brethren who they perceive as being little more than a mass of stupid White people.  It’s never a pretty site when these sorts of feelings come out in public.

They have no attachment to anything.

(2) Intellectual pretense.  I have been around “the cities” long enough to know that urban Whites generally believe what they are told to believe and seldom have the courage to think for themselves, yet they fashion themselves so superior to the hayseeds for just this reason.

Very true. They’ve worked through the math problems and been rewarded for having gotten the correct answers. But they’ve never learned to think, nor do they have any real structure to build upon. They’re strangely attached to “the city” rather than their ethnic group. They have friends and a nuclear family, but otherwise their entire existence is shallow and hollow. They’re “citizens of the world” aka programmable robots, or as CC would say “lemmings”.

The rural believes in the Bible and is proud of where it’s from; but at least it has something, at least it’s human.


162

Posted by Frank on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 06:49 | #

NN,

I’ve seen you post that before, but I don’t think that’s really saying anything. There’s always a balance of power, that is a balance of force. You can’t will away the religious, though you can act without it on your own I suppose, or encourage others to…

Feudalism won’t be returning, not with today’s technology. At “best” you might gain an Orwellian state that monitors and controls everything, totally dominating with force everything in society. Even under feudalism though, religious currents existed.

Sun Zhu teaches pure force, rejecting religion. He’s oriented around winning though, and it’s perhaps likely other texts were used with his to teach with. Someone had to do the teaching, so someone other than the general was expecting either a benefit or a common idol / attachment to be served.

-

What you might propose that is potent is for whites or white Christians to act as elites in service to their attachments.


163

Posted by Frank on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 06:52 | #

I watched that Heidegger series earlier. It took 7 videos to teach a philosophically unsound, though useful, lesson of: don’t sweat the small stuff.

I wonder if the geniuses here aren’t wasting their time reading the wrong books - I mean to include Nietzsche in that too. Read the real stuff.


164

Posted by Captainchaos on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 08:24 | #

Low income also correlates with higher religiosity. High income correlates with lack of religiosity.

This is an extremely superficial view and as such is infelicitous in fleshing out the deeper dynamics of what is being discussed here.  Religiosity is but “the outward and often social articulation of belief in higher powers”.  I do not believe you think yourself that bourgeois liberals are less given to organizing their social lives around principles they think high and transcendent.  The beginning of incite is to delve into the content of beliefs which are essentially religious and then to ask which type of personality would tend to be attracted to the former.


165

Posted by Captainchaos on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 08:55 | #

People who hold conservative as opposed to liberal views are more likely to be attracted to members of their own race and are more likely to have greater numbers of children.  Conservative Whites are more conventional in the view of the world and their concern is more provincially circumscribed.  They are less open and novelty seeking.  They are more likely to give charitably.  They are less morally vain.  These are personal tendencies which translate to higher ethnocentrism and group genetic continuity.


166

Posted by PF on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 08:56 | #

Wandrin wrote:

You’re just assuming this because of your own biases.

Maybe. But I am almost sure that I had read research on this point. Let me try to find it on the net and get back to you. When I say stuff like that, i.e. correlations, I try not to shoot from the hip, I think there was actual research.


167

Posted by Wandrin on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 09:49 | #

Wandrin wrote:

Wanderer, i think.


168

Posted by Captainchaos on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:11 | #

They are less morally vain.

Moral vanity is a function of narcissism and cuts against love and loyalty to those closest to one’s self, the former disposing one to be more concerned with “moral” abstractions that stroke one’s ego than self-sacrificing altruism.  It is not for nothing that some signed off on effectively the extermination of the German people for their 30 pieces of Lend-Lease silver whilst Germans, for all their alleged moral debasement, would have given Slavs under their prospective rule no worse than Czechs were given when their docility was obtained.  If anything, it is moral vanity which translates to moral debasement (i.e., race treason).


169

Posted by Captainchaos on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:55 | #

signed off on effectively the extermination of the German people for their 30 pieces of Lend-Lease silver

The Slavs that the English allegedly fought the war to save were turned over to the Bolshevik butchers.  The 500,000 British troops stationed in dismembered Germany as a nascent Cold War counter-weight to Russian troops on the other side of the divide created a man power shortage in England which necessitated the importation of niggers who then went to work mongrelizing the English people.  Those British soldiers, according to the narrative of moral superiority erected in the aftermath of WWII, apparently could not have been put to better use in crushing the Red Army at a time when their side had the atom bomb and the Soviets did not; or at least being sent home to tend to their women and not leaving this job to niggers.  Perhaps only Krauts can be bothered with fighting to the last man out loyalty to their own, not to mention an outcome which would have been actually morally superior in its consequences to the one obtained by English perfidy.  And as epilogue, it can hardly be a coincidence that in America the “WASP” ruling class totally capitulated to Jews and is now utterly in league with them, their moral vanity acting as a fig leaf for their seemingly congenital sociopathic lack of racial loyalty.


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Posted by PF on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:05 | #

CC wrote:

concerned with “moral” abstractions that stroke one’s ego than self-sacrificing altruism.

Self-sacrificing altruism is a moral abstraction, as you are using it.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:27 | #

Self-sacrificing altruism is a moral abstraction, as you are using it.

Self-sacrificing altruism and moral vanity are traits of personality - which, I submit, depending upon their degree of robustness, can predict behavior - in the sense I am using them.  I do not, at least conceptually, necessarily assign moral content to the former (no more so than I feel intellectually obliged to say water that boils at 32 degrees is morally agreeable water), but of course it is an abstraction.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:50 | #

Despite the best efforts of Jews and WASPs to put a Final end to the Kraut question it seems those irrepressible rascals may once again be the ones to attempt to pull the chestnuts of the race out of the fire.  Thanks Thilo.  And where are the English?  If not asleep behind the wheel, then attempting to steer it towards oncoming traffic, per usual (thanks Barnesy, you shithead).  If the Krauts ever just disappeared (or were exterminated), with the English alone left to mind the store, then our race would surely be totally fucked.


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Posted by PF on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:56 | #

Cor, CC, you have to be one of the most boring people on the whole internet.

Wait….I think I am finally beginning to understand your point…. Should the nazis have won WWII? Why… because you’re part German and you dont like America’s racial situation? OK. Gotcha. 50 million English people were wrong, because you are right. They should have capitulated, because… like you said, 70 years on, their folly is obvious. Tell me whose folly isn’t obvious 70 years on, and I’ll give you a cookie. You know better than the men who lived then. Just invent a time machine now and go back and tell them what to do. While you’re at it, go back a million years and advise homo habilis on how they can harness fire. Go back to the Roman empire and advise them not to settle Goths within their territory. Go back to old France and tell them never to invite the Normans in to serve as mercenaries. What a bunch of fucking losers, all these nations.

You know, those Romans were fucking retarded. The Goths just took over their shit. Pathetic. How could they not have known? If I were running their empire, 1800 years ago, I would have done it better, word is born. Dude, I’m like, smarter than the Romans! I know more about their empire than even they knew! Can you believe it? Its almost as if… its almost as if the existence of historical hindsight allows me to have superior strategic knowledge to all people who lived in the past… amazing!

Now I just declare how they were in the wrong, and bam! I have a moral narrative about how the past is “wrong” and “should” have been another way! Even though no one can do anything to change the past, I can nevertheless constantly remind the descendents of the groups who committed “strategic errors”, that the blame for their mistakes lies squarely on their heads, and ruthlessly hold them to account. Just like all decent people stopped doing to Germany sometime in the 70s or 80s.

Hey uh - you shouldn’t have let Goths settle within the Limes. Fucker. Hey Dionekes Pontikles and Taki, you guys were real idiots to yield to Macedonian conquest. Hey Notus, why did you let Garth Brooks overtake country music? You see, gentleman, from my vantage point in 2010 I’m retroactively declaring the experience of your ancestors invalid, because its strategically incorrect from my 2010 racialist perspective, and I’m holding you to account for this “mistake” via blood libel. And I’m creating a narrative where my ethnic group is uniquely above all blame, while I blame everyone else for all thats happened.

Time to watch some ren and stimpy.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:16 | #

Well, PF, I guess you might say of me what one commenter said on Auster’s blog of Melanie Phillips, that is, I’m a “banger”.  I’ll just keep hitting (English) people over the head with the obvious until I’m blue in the face, until I’ve exhausted any last doubt that they get my one and by now tedious point.  Either that, or until they acknowledge Krauts as the Master Race.  LOL!

Subtly be damned, I am but a simple half Kraut from the thumb state, where we don’t have countless lakes inland but big suckers surrounding us.


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Posted by PF on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:28 | #

CC wrote:

Well, PF, I guess you might say of me what one commenter said on Auster’s blog of Melanie Phillips, that is, I’m a “banger”.  I’ll just keep hitting (English) people over the head with the obvious until I’m blue in the face, until I’ve exhausted any last doubt that they get my one and by now tedious point.  Either that, or until they acknowledge Krauts as the Master Race.  LOL!

What exactly is your point?


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:35 | #

Wait….I think I am finally beginning to understand your point…. Should the nazis have won WWII? Why… because you’re part German and you dont like America’s racial situation? OK. Gotcha. 50 million English people were wrong, because you are right. They should have capitulated, because… like you said, 70 years on, their folly is obvious.

Should the National Socialist regime of pre-WWII Germany have prevailed against those who conspired to destroy it?

50 million English people were not given such education and information as would have allowed them to intelligently and providently transcend their mis-acquired sense of cultural and moral superiority - and the exploitation thereof by those in positions of responsibility who were either of the same mind or who had been prostituted to the racial and ideological enemies of the German regime.

Please resume your remarks, PF, with this unexceptionable characterization in mind.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:50 | #

In the interest of fashionable full disclosure, I know of no personal ancestry that is German other than Anglo-Saxon.  Otherwise I’m Norman (descended from a lieutenant of Rollo).

So I’m completely free of the blood bias that taints the remarks of our half-breed Captain.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:51 | #

When you absolutely need to get some racially advantageous shit done, call on the Krauts.  They’re a steamroller.  Capable of near superhuman puissance.  Which why the English in their petty rivalry with said find it necessary to constantly shame Krauts into submission as when it comes to marshal prowess Krauts have everyone else shitting bricks, and that’s even when Krauts are not ginned up on their palingenesis.  I mean, for Engerlishmuns, it’s not just NS that is worthy of scolding, “Prussian militarism” also makes them go beet red in the face.

My point?  I guess it’s as simple as Krauts are numero uno.


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Posted by Leon Haller on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:58 | #

Excellent and interesting comments from many persons. MR seems to be discussing these issues at as high a level as anywhere else on the racialist web (is my sense correct?). I’d like to respond to so many (including some of the linked essays, esp from Narrator), but I am realizing that these issues quickly implicate the most fundamental concerns of men’s lives (and I do mean “men”; females just don’t seem interested in foundational matters or able to think as abstractly, in the main), to which collectively agreed upon answers are not available.

That is, invariably, those seriously investigating all major political problems (which very much includes the struggle to save the white race and/or Western Civ) start “cheating” by taking those problems to ever-higher levels of abstraction and generality, until we finally hit the wall of Ultimate Inquiry which remains infinitely contested, and perhaps contestable: What is Real? and, What Can Be Known? Every plain policy problem, in other words, can rapidly be turned into a problem of ideology (“Is this really nationalist/conservative/progressive, etc?”), then political philosophy (“Is this just?”), then ontology (“Is this true?”), and finally epistemology (“Is this knowable?”).

Of course, to get through our lives, we all rely on a huge background of empirically settled ‘knowledge’ (what GW perhaps would refer to as ‘adaptive knowledge’; that is, the understanding of the world garnered through personal or vicarious experience - “don’t touch a hot stove” - or through reasoning based on experience - we know what it’s like to fall down, and thus can infer correctly the consequence of falling from a high place). Philosophers try to prove that we cannot really know anything - yet they themselves seem to know not to walk into traffic, submerge electronics in water, swallow razor blades, shout the “n-word” in faculty meetings, etc.

My concern here is not with Ultimate Reality (UR). I would like knowledge about UR, but I doubt I will find it here, or possibly anywhere. Even if I were presented with UR, I’m not sure I would recognize it as such, or be able to defeat epistemic critiques of it if I did. We’re not going to solve UR issues, and even if we did, others might not recognize our accomplishment. And even if others recognized our achievements, how would that advance the cause of race survival?

My point is that, wrt the issue of Christianity and race/WN, there are two only somewhat overlapping sets of concerns. First, what is the correct view of essential Christianity (I’m a big believer not only in intra-Christian ecumenism, but in the notion of a Christian doctrinal and hence ethical core which transcends more superficial points of dissension) wrt race and integration v. preservation? Does Christianity in its metaphysical essence condemn temporal conservatisms, boundaries or sub-universal attachments? Is Christianity completely otherworldly, with no concern for earthly affairs (the massively agreed upon answer to this latter question, whether doctrinally or historically, has been “NO”; Christianity in the main body of tradition values the material world, and God judges men’s behaviors in it)?.   

And second, what is the strategically correct approach WNs should adopt towards Christianity? Whether the Christian message corresponds to UR or not, should those whites concerned with race and civilization attack Christianity, coopt it, or ignore it?

These are weighty questions, though as Narrator (and I, in other contexts, perhaps only in passing) has noted, they may be finally moot. Most people possess some sort of instinct for self-preservation, and we may be approaching (though I suspect still not for some considerable time) a day in which whites will be faced with the kind of limited options that available to whites confined in American prisons: fight or be enslaved or murdered. At that point concerns about ontology, ethics, and the like will be as meaningless as debates about animal rights and biodiversity in the face of a shark or tiger attack.

But we are still far from that Race-Omega point, and the more we get our acts together now (as I believe Captainchaos asserts above), the greater our collective and thus individual chances for preservation will be when we do reach it. And that is why these deep issues do matter, and not just in terms of UR, but strategically. WNs know (not to an epistemic certainty, but as a function of the adaptive knowledge I referred to above) that the end result of the multicult will not be good for us, and thus recruiting to our cause now, “pre-war”, is akin to weapons stockpiling.

It is also necessary in light of the “ripening harvest / encroaching jungle” metaphor I utilized earlier. We’re in something of a ‘numbers game’. Our forces are shrinking; the future enemies’, mainly due to immigration, expanding. If we do not stop immigration, we could lose by default. The later we stop immigration, the harder our final fight, whether for racial liberation, or racial survival, will be. 

Does it really matter what the UR of Christianity is? It does to me, and it should to you, but only individually. Obviously, it does not matter to us as racialists, and so it is not worth debating here. What about the theologically proper view of Christianity towards race? That matters more, but again, only to that minority of intellectuals capable of understanding subtle and complex issues, and willing to consider issues dispassionately. Also, the issue is a limited one. Contrary to the condescension of NeoNietzsche above, it is crucial to draw distinctions between what is morally imperative, and what is merely ethically permissible - and such distinctions are relevant to our racial survival. Christians, vastly more numerous among whites than WNs, don’t need racialists to prove the truth of their religion, nor do racialists need to be converted to Christianity (at least for race survival purposes). Moreover, very few Christians, if forced to choose between religion and race, are going to choose race. That is an empirical contention, but experience of the world strongly favors it.

So a key, contemporary strategic issue for WNs (not for Christians - remember who is powerful, and who is weak) is whether a Christian can be a WN? Does Christianity properly, theologically, forbid, again, sub-universal attachments, such as unequal concern for nation and race - or can we embrace our own cultural particularity, and practice demographic exclusivity?

Let me reiterate: we do not need to resolve the existence or non-existence of God, the nature of justice, even whether Christianity condemns racism, properly understood. For our strategic racialist purposes we only have to show that stopping immigration and outlawing miscegenation (and in Europe’s case, repatriation of non-indigenes) are not actually forbidden by essential Christian doctrine. This is possible, if not easy, as these problems are fairly new, and there does not exist a large body of theology on these subjects (except for some tendentious 19th century OT musings from various Southern patricians, which do not carry much weight amongst Christians today - and less for their PC violations, than shoddy scholarship).

But of one thing I am certain. If most white Christians deem racial preservation measures (immigration + miscegenation + healthy nationalist pride) ‘racist’, and ‘racism’ ethically impermissible according to their religion, WNs will continue to exist in a circumscribed, if slightly, albeit continuously, growing ideological ghetto - and the Third World hordes will overwhelm us long before we shall have attained any power.

In democracies, you go where the votes are. In America, atheists are not a big group. Right-wing atheists are infinitesimal. Where should we concentrate our firepower?


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Posted by Leon Haller on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:10 | #

PF’s point wrt 20/20 historical hindsight is fair in general, but doesn’t quite invalidate criticisms of Allied involvement in WW2, at least wrt the Anglo-American elites who dragged us into war. There were plenty of persons like aviator Charles Lindbergh who understood at the time that American involvement would be catastrophic for white civilization (his words, in a speech), and could result in communist domination of Europe. There were many rightists who clearheadedly recognized that Hitler was the lesser of two evils viz Stalin.


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Posted by Notus Wind on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:45 | #

The difficulty of the hindsight critique is one of perspective.  If we critique our predecessors from the perspective of the 21st century then at best we’re pointing out a lesson of history, which is easy to do as there are many lessons of history.  It is only when we couch our critique from the perspective in which said events took place do we deal a direct blow to the targeted historical actors, which might only be possible in the future when the relevant historical documents become available.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:51 | #

There were many rightists who clearheadedly recognized that Hitler was the lesser of two evils viz Stalin.

Correct.

One might even note that 80% of the GJ goyim were opposed to intervention - yet Jew-stooge Roosevelt engineered it.

So why bother with a voting majority of goyim? 

[Also, to speak of Hitler as the lesser of two evils is to be profoundly lacking in sophistication as to the logic and history of political economy - which is to say that one is typical of the Greater Judean goyim, then and now.]


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Posted by Sam Davidson on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:51 | #

Except they did for centuries. They were Christian and racialist for centuries.

Hmm… examples? I’d say that racialism is a more recent development. Gobineau did not explain his racial theories until the second half of the 19th century and such views of Nordic superiority and eugenics were not popularized until the early 20th century.

Christians quite happily slaughtered each other for centuries as well despite all the turn the other cheek stuff.

I might have to concede this point. My only addition would be to say that for most of history the common man was illiterate and relied upon priests to give religious direction. Here’s an interesting quote that explains quite a bit about the Jewish talent for doublethink:

“In addition, the disappearance of the heroic ideal is always accompanied by the growth of commercialism. There is a cause-and-effect relation here, for the man of commerce is by the nature of things a relativist; his mind is constantly on the fluctuating values of the marketplace, and there is no surer way to fail than for him to dogmatize and moralize about things.” - Ideas Have Consequences, Richard Weaver

The churchs have surrendered to the multicult now but were they the vanguard of the change or the rearguard? Seems to me the churchs were the ones trying to hold back the multicult all these years until recently. It seems a bit odd to blame Christianity for x and y when Chrisitianity opposed x and y for centuries and only surrendered 60 years after cultural marxists gained control of the cultural high ground through media and education.

“Christian theology is the grandmother of Bolshevism.” - Oswald Spengler

Christianity played a large role in the abolitionist movement. The rifles sent to anti-slavery forces in Kansas before the Civil War were nicknamed “Beecher Bibles” after the minister Henry Ward Beecher, brother of Harriet Beecher Stowe, author of “Uncle Tom’s Cabin.” Slavery is not racialism exactly, but it’s the only acceptable form of society apart from total racial separation.

“Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.” -Alexander H. Stephenson, Vice President of the Confederacy


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Posted by Jon Leigh Barnsley on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:08 | #

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

you are all a bunch of hitler worshipping nazi dickheads and poofters

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Now vote for my new Shittish Freedumb Party so we can breed the Great Ones.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:39 | #

“Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.” -Alexander H. Stephenson, Vice President of the Confederacy

This betrays the weakness of the Confederate position, in that enslavement of the Negro was no more taxing of the ideology, structure, and martial agenda of the South than was mule ownership.

So the Confederacy was doomed, at the outset, for lack of the determination to rule the Union, as was the basic ambition of the Federal cause.

In contrast, the Romans understood the “great truth” that one’s “superiority” is the product of victory on the battlefield.  Mastery is not racial superiority - it is martial superiority - in engagement of one’s racial peers with deadly weapons.  The Confederacy was “based” thus upon a pseudo-aristocratic, quasi-bourgeois conceit of little merit.  For to claim some sort of superiority by comparison with “the negro” is to damn oneself with faint praise and, as said, to betray a fundamental and fatal lack of discipline and organization that was, ironically, the product of the very suitability of the negro as a compliant slave.

Unfortunately, there is too much of this same sloppy and superficial orientation in the formulation of WN objectives.  The world will, again, not permit the realization of a simple desire to deal with racial aliens by bourgeois means (purchasing primitives, segregating them, excluding them, running away from them).


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Posted by Wandrin on Sun, 31 Oct 2010 23:27 | #

I’d say that racialism is a more recent development.

Yes, you’re probably right to say explicit racialism was a later development but slavery (and pretty much the entirety of European Christian history) shows how people could quite easily compartmentalize.

Psychologically i think what happens is when the preacher preaches on a Sunday the congregation take his words as applying to “us” not neccessarily anyone else - summed up in the expression “praise the lord and pass the ammunition” supposedly said by a Royal Navy Chaplain at the battle of Jutland. Throughout most of European Christian history that “us” didn’t neccessarily extend any further than the next town. In Britain there was an expression “the wogs begin at Calais” which sums up the attitude.

Now the multicult churchs are explicitly saying “us” applies to everyone in the world but they didn’t used to.

So backtracking a bit i’d say instead that European Christians were always (but only ever implicitly) racial simply through distance and geography placing non-whites at a distance and therefore not “us.”

My only addition would be to say that for most of history the common man was illiterate and relied upon priests to give religious direction.

That’s precisely my point. Religious believers still do even when they’re not illiterate - if not to the same extent. Using the exact same new testament a church could stress “love thy neighbour” in the sense of those physically close to you, kith and kin, or literal neighbours or whatever.

My guess is there’s also a big pool now of Christian inclined people who have given up on the current forms because the current forms have become so multicult. One little known fact is one of the biggest pools for muslim convert jihadists is people from strict Christian backgrounds reacting against their church becoming too soft.

Here’s an interesting quote that explains quite a bit about the Jewish talent for doublethink:

That’s a possible explanation but another would simply be that jews have two “us” and two “them.” In public they share the same “us” and “them” as the host population. In private “us” is the jews, “them” is the host. The essence of the jewish survival (without assimilating) strategy is to strive to ensure their sense of “us”-ness is stronger than the host’s sense of “us”-ness.

“Christian theology is the grandmother of Bolshevism.” - Oswald Spengler

Yeah except speaking as someone who was on the left for decades it’s not remotely true. The left has always contained a *strand* of liberal Christianity but the liberal wing of Christianity was always massively outnumbered by the conservative wing until recently. Anglicanism in Britain was known as the Conservative party at prayer until it succumbed to the multicult and died.

There was also always a parallel strand of ideologically based liberalism on the left - also massively outnumbered by ideological conservatives.

Marxism was a third separate, parallel strand that has nothing to do with Christianity or liberalism. The only connection is Marxism *uses* Liberal or Christian language as a wrapper to disguise its intent.

Spengler should have simply read what the cultural marxists said among themselves. They don’t hide anything among themselves. Take crime for example. They knew crime destroys society so they wanted more of it. They can say that among themselves but they can’t say it in public so what do they do? They take liberal and Christian sounding arguments like criminals being the victims of society and use that as camouflage to get what they want. The camouflage then draws actual Liberals and actual Liberal Christians to do the legwork.

Christianity played a large role in the abolitionist movement.

The liberal wing of Chrisitanity no doubt did. Whereas the conservative wing of Christianity played a large role in legitimizing slavery.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav.htm

==

The correct analogy in my view is that of a poison and cuts on the skin. Christianity and Liberalism may represent cuts on the skin but they are simply not the poison. The poison is left-liberalism which is disguised cultural marxism.


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Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 00:00 | #

Leon Haller,

And second, what is the strategically correct approach WNs should adopt towards Christianity? Whether the Christian message corresponds to UR or not, should those whites concerned with race and civilization attack Christianity, coopt it, or ignore it?

Does it really matter what the UR of Christianity is? It does to me, and it should to you, but only individually

Exactly so. I’d also add, for those who think attacking Christianity is neccessary or useful politically (i don’t) then *how* it should be attacked is relevant. In terms of the effect they have most of the attacks i see on Christianity on WN sites could just as easily have been made by enemies.

Moreover, very few Christians, if forced to choose between religion and race, are going to choose race. That is an empirical contention, but experience of the world strongly favors it.

White people maybe - not blacks or hispanics. That distinction will gradually rub off on white christians although possibly too late.


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Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 00:12 | #

The argument over Christianity applies more generally.

The entire western world is daily saturated with anti-white propaganda coming out of the media and education. This is aimed at demoralization and divide and rule. Now obviously cultural self-criticism is neccessary up to a point to analyze how we got where we are and therefore how we get out. But people should realize that that cultural self-criticism also reinforces the psychological demoralization and divide and rule of the other side.

So people should weigh the benefit of that criticism against the cost.

For example, for most of the month the benefit of Captain Tampon’s input is probably higher than the cost but his monthly PMS sessions are all cost and no benefit. I doubt he can control it but it’s important to not get dragged in if possible.


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Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 00:22 | #

In contrast, the Romans understood the “great truth” that one’s “superiority” is the product of victory on the battlefield.  Mastery is not racial superiority - it is martial superiority

Very true.

The heroic, aristocratic medieval knight could take on a hundred peasants and win.

Until the peasants got guns.

Martial ability then became a mass project and the heros became mass composite heros e.g 82nd airborne or Royal Marines instead of individuals.

Military technology killed the aristocratic tradition not democracy. Democracy is / was the neccessary price to pay for the switch to mass warfare.


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Posted by Desmond Jones on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 01:42 | #

Christianity played a large role in the abolitionist movement. The rifles sent to anti-slavery forces in Kansas before the Civil War were nicknamed “Beecher Bibles” after the minister Henry Ward Beecher,

Beecher apparently, was a strong believer in Darwin’s theory of evolution. The rifles were supplied to immigrant anti-slavery forces, especially composed of the ‘48ers’, who were migrant Germans, apparently.

I have watched how steadily the general feeling, as shown at elections, has been rising against Slavery. What a proud thing for England if she is the first European nation which utterly abolishes it! I was told before leaving England that after living in slave countries all my opinions would be altered; the only alteration I am aware of is forming a much higher estimate of the negro character. It is impossible to see a negro and not feel kindly towards him; such cheerful, open, honest expressions and such fine muscular bodies. I never saw any of the diminutive Portuguese, with their murderous countenances, without almost wishing for Brazil to follow the example of Haiti; and, considering the enormous healthy-looking black population, it will be wonderful if, at some future day, it does not take place.

Charles Darwin


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 01:46 | #

Military technology killed the aristocratic tradition not democracy.

Junker

[as in Von Leeb, von Bock , von Rundstedt, von Manstein, etc.]

Guillotine

[As in the French Revolution]


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Posted by Sam Davidson on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 03:18 | #

All of the Christian apologists in this thread are making these general points:

1. White Christians don’t really believe what the bible says. In fact, they’re usually ignorant.
2. Thus it follows that we could manipulate Christians into believing that their religion is either racialist or tolerant of racialist beliefs.
3. All we need to do is somehow overthrow the dominant culture and gain control of these lemmings for our own purposes.

Question: If White Christians are just a passive reactionary lump, why would they be of any use to us anyway? Slave labor? Cannon fodder?

Now the multicult churchs are explicitly saying “us” applies to everyone in the world but they didn’t used to.

Matthew 12:48 - Jesus Christ redefined kinship as being a spiritual relationship. But that’s not important since White Christians are functionally illiterate and can be fooled, right? The Christian apologists certainly have a low opinion of White Christians!

I am beginning to find all of these low opinions of White Christians quite distasteful and fail to see how it will further the cause of racialism by insulting so many decent White people!

The Confederacy was “based” thus upon a pseudo-aristocratic, quasi-bourgeois conceit of little merit.

Quite right, NeoNietzsche. The Confederates were pussies! Let us continue this highly topical discussion away from the rude children at MR, post haste!


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Posted by danielj on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 04:11 | #

Has anybody here ever heard of R.L. Dabney?

Christians can have genuine disagreement, as they did violently, in the Civil War.

Both factions in the conflict, being composed mostly of self-described Christians, claimed for their side the blessing of the Lord. I’m not suggesting that we discount the other forces at play and other motivations for the struggle, but we should remember that both sides applied a thick veneer of theology over the whole escapade.

Again it appears that Christianity serves as a convenient whipping boy for liberals who accuse it of being a reactionary conservative force that is parochial, backward facing, nostalgic, pastoral, etc. and a for the WN right who accuse it of the exact opposite and consider it harbinger of all things progressive and the handmaiden of liberalism.

Unfortunately, as somebody pointed out above, it is usually just an afterthought and politicians merely recruit the clergy for manipulation of the laity.


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Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 04:15 | #

Question: If White Christians are just a passive reactionary lump, why would they be of any use to us anyway? Slave labor? Cannon fodder?

Soldiers. Voters. Electricians. Lawyers. All the usual things.

Matthew 12:48 - Jesus Christ redefined kinship as being a spiritual relationship. But that’s not important since White Christians are functionally illiterate and can be fooled, right? The Christian apologists certainly have a low opinion of White Christians!

The Koran says go kill infidels. Some muslims take it seriously. Most muslims ignore it because they’re people and most people’s primary desire is to have a quiet life. Christians are the same. So are Budhists, Hindus whatever.

I am beginning to find all of these low opinions of White Christians quite distasteful and fail to see how it will further the cause of racialism by insulting so many decent White people!

I don’t have a low opinion of white christians. People are people. Most of them want a quiet life. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Under normal conditions it provides stability. It’s only a problem now because a hostile elite has stealthed its way into power and needs to be taken down.


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Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 04:27 | #

All we need to do is somehow overthrow the dominant culture and gain control of these lemmings for our own purposes.

The options are
—ignore
—co-opt (multiple possibilities)
—attack (multiple possibilities)

I don’t know what the best option is. However i think the worst option is attacking Christianity and Christians via a direct banzai charge as all that does is annoy people. Apart from anything else the multicult is already doing that all the time anyway.


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Posted by the Narrator... on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 09:29 | #

People who hold conservative as opposed to liberal views are more likely to be attracted to members of their own race and are more likely to have greater numbers of children

Posted by Captainchaos on October 31, 2010, 07:55 AM

We don’t necessarily need more of us. We need less of them.

Numbers are not at all relevant to the issue. Our numbers have gone up and down throughout the ages.

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Does Christianity in its metaphysical essence condemn temporal conservatisms, boundaries or sub-universal attachments? Is Christianity completely otherworldly, with no concern for earthly affairs….?
Posted by Leon Haller on October 31, 2010, 12:58 PM |

The answer to both questions is yes and no. Hence, the problem.

The bible only has one semi-consistent thread running throughout it from Genesis to Revelation, and that is the notion that there is one god and sole creator of all peoples.

If you embrace that idea you have no choice but to embrace the rest of multiculturalism. And as multiculturalism is suicidal, the belief in “one god of all” is literally poison to a civilization.

The embodiment of that reality is, of course, Jim Jones and his church. Jones is LITERALLY the patron-Saint of Evangelical Christians, as his doctrine and advocacy for integration and “social justice” are the mainstream.
America is Joenestown.

G.K. Chesterton once quipped that critics of the bible will on the one hand accuse it of promoting pacifism and then on the other hand promote aggression and war. He said it can’t be both.

Well, yeah it can and it does, which is why it is interpreted both ways, sometimes simultaneously by its followers.
Case in point, most Christians support America’s invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan (and, they ultimately hope) Iran because it is okay to defend ourselves and our way of life. Setting aside the fact that none of those countries ever attacked us, these same Christians are silent and outright passive in the face of the tens of millions of immigrants raping and murdering people everyday, right in their own towns and cities.

The bible is full of contradictions and hypocrisies and logical fallacies. Thus its followers are all over the place in their affiliations and beliefs.
And so sadly you’ve got ‘good and descent White people’ holding up little brown insidious characters like Abraham, Joseph, Esther and Moses as “heroes” whose examples are to be followed.

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In democracies, you go where the votes are. In America, atheists are not a big group

Posted by Leon Haller on October 31, 2010, 12:58 PM

As I’ve said before, if we’re to come out of this predicament alive we will be led. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN DEMOCRATICALLY.

The great White Christian majority will be a minority at any time, so the democratic process will destroy it anyway.

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Posted by Wandrin on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:24 | #

The bible only has one semi-consistent thread running throughout it from Genesis to Revelation, and that is the notion that there is one god and sole creator of all peoples.  If you embrace that idea you have no choice but to embrace the rest of multiculturalism.

No it doesn’t.

G.K. Chesterton once quipped that critics of the bible will on the one hand accuse it of promoting pacifism and then on the other hand promote aggression and war. He said it can’t be both. Well, yeah it can and it does, which is why it is interpreted both ways, sometimes simultaneously by its followers.

As you say yourself five seconds later.


I don’t think being pro-christian is the answer or anything but this whole anti-christian thing is a complete waste of time.

Seriously. What is the absolutely GIGANTIC logical flaw in the idea that Christianity is the problem?

In Europe has Christianity got stronger or weaker over the last 60 years?

In America has Christianity got stronger or weaker over the last 60 years?

If over the last 60 years Christianity has got significantly weaker in America and absolutely collapsed in Europe then how the f**k can Christianity be the problem?

The multicult is the new religion.


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Posted by the Narrator... on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:50 | #

As you say yourself five seconds later.

Posted by Wandrin on November 01, 2010, 09:24 AM

huh?
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What is the absolutely GIGANTIC logical flaw in the idea that Christianity is the problem?

Posted by Wandrin on November 01, 2010, 09:24 AM

Again….what?
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In Europe has Christianity got stronger or weaker over the last 60 years?

In America has Christianity got stronger or weaker over the last 60 years?

Posted by Wandrin on November 01, 2010, 09:24 AM

It’s impossible to say either way as we have no idea to what extent past generations took Christianity (as a supernatural faith) seriously on a personal level.

I’ve said at MR before that Christianity looks to have been born out of a cultural nexus of the excesses of Classical Greek Philosophy, the Roman Empire’s “pragmatic” political cosmopolitanism and the Semitic notion of monotheism. All three were bad news. Mix them together and you’ve got a witch’s brew of toxicity.
The point is, some of the sentiments of the religion reflect native European’s worst tendencies of “live and let live” altruism. Toss in the “one god for all” motif and you’ve got an eternal justification for passivity conveniently applied at various whims.
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...how the f**k can Christianity be the problem?

The multicult is the new religion.

Posted by Wandrin on November 01, 2010, 09:24 AM

Meet the new boss,
Same as the old boss.

Christianity was conceived and born out of multiculturalism, not surprisingly at the junction where three continents meet.

Besides, think of the psychology at work in the faith. Christians, collectively, are the “bride of Christ” waiting for the “marriage supper of the lamb” and the “consummation” of the age.

In other words,

to be a Christian is to be in the harem of Sheik Jesus, a swarthy skinned asiatic man, anxiously awaiting your turn in a cosmic orgy with your “husband-to-be”.

That’s not exactly a healthy starting point for the survival of our people.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 14:00 | #

The bible is full of contradictions and hypocrisies and logical fallacies. Thus its followers are all over the place in their affiliations and beliefs.

And so it will be, as long as the bourgeois bumpkins rely upon preachers and priests, and their own prejudices, for a tailored version of the “faith” - as opposed to self-reliantly and detachedly taking from the text, as a whole, its antithetical, inversional, and apocalyptic recasting of reality, such as appeals to the minority of Christians true to the ancient and authentic faith.

So, in order to make off with the herd in our direction, the Christian cattle will have to be rustled, somehow.

And how are the Identity and British Israelism folks doing these days?


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Posted by danielj on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 14:06 | #

Narrator,

  You say you disagree with Chesterton and that it can be interpreted in multiple ways, that it is full of contradictions, etc. but you then go on to claim that it must be interpreted as a religion that abolishes all earthly distinction and that it must be interpreted solely in this fashion. The Bible cannot simultaneously be “full of contradictions” and have the unifying theme you describe.

I think Wandrin was saying you can’t have it both ways.


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Posted by the Narrator... on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 16:46 | #

You say you disagree with Chesterton and that it can be interpreted in multiple ways, that it is full of contradictions, etc. but you then go on to claim that it must be interpreted as a religion that abolishes all earthly distinction and that it must be interpreted solely in this fashion. The Bible cannot simultaneously be “full of contradictions” and have the unifying theme you describe.

I think Wandrin was saying you can’t have it both ways.
Posted by danielj on November 01, 2010, 01:06 PM

To quote myself,

The bible only has one ***semi***-consistent thread running throughout it from Genesis to Revelation, and that is the notion that there is one god and sole creator of all peoples.

Posted by the Narrator… on November 01, 2010, 08:29 AM |

I mean, “let US make man” and so on…
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Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 17:28 | #

danielj,

Apparently, Christianity has just enough coherence for all of the Narrator’s points to stand.  wink


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Posted by the Narrator... on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 17:54 | #

Apparently, Christianity has just enough coherence for all of the Narrator’s points to stand.

Posted by Notus Wind on November 01, 2010, 04:28 PM |

And they do stand.
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On the political side, here is another example of why we aren’t going to vote our way out of this.

This is consistent with the developing partisan realignment of formerly bipartisan Israel-support. Encouragingly, in the wake of Obama’s actions, the American electorate – 98 percent non-Jewish – is now solidly behind Israel: According to a recent McLaughlin poll, 53% could not vote for an anti-Israel candidate even if they agreed with that candidate’s other positions. But look closer: Among Republicans, 69% are more likely to vote for a pro-Israel candidate

The anticipated election results favoring Republicans would result in one of the most pro-Israel Congresses ever.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=193468


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Posted by Thorn on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 17:56 | #

Q: Can you be both a Christian and a race-realist?

A: An obvious YES! Just look around.

Q: Can you be rabidly pro-multicult and completely reject Christianity?

A: An obvious YES. Just look around. In my perception, non-Christians are the biggest race denying kool aide drinking multiculters.

Ergo Christianity is not, repeat NOT the main factor nor is even a minor factor contributing to our demise. If you really want to pin it onto something it’s cultural-Marxism; an ideology which all political correctness flows.

If anything, Christianity has been subverted by practitioners of political correctness. PC of course is a Jewish invention designed for the expressed purpose of breaking down Western Culture. Given the historical fact that Christianity has always been a main pillar holding up Western Culture, it’s no wonder why Antonio Gramsci and the Frankfort School shmuckaroos regarded Christian morality as one of the main obstacles in their long march through the institutions.


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Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 18:11 | #

Narrator,

Friend, in addition to entertaining the wacky idea that a committed communist and Soviet sympathizer [Jim Jones] was the ultimate fulfillment of Christian doctrine you were exposed by Wandrin in the following exchange:

Wandrin: In America has Christianity got stronger or weaker over the last 60 years?  If over the last 60 years Christianity has got significantly weaker in America and absolutely collapsed in Europe then how the f**k can Christianity be the problem?

Narrator: It’s impossible to say either way as we have no idea to what extent past generations took Christianity (as a supernatural faith) seriously on a personal level.

Your unwillingness to admit the obvious - that Christianity in the West has greatly declined in all its forms and expressions over the last two generations - reveals that you can’t be taken seriously on this subject.


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Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 19:03 | #

Sam,

I’m not sure who you think you’re fooling but you can’t make authoritative theological judgments about Christianity on the strength of a few lines of scripture and the remarks of one pope, such a facile treatment is as inadequate as it is offensive.  Moreover, even if we grant your rhetorical scraps as being more serious than they deserve what weight do they have when compared against a legacy of Europeans who were able to integrate Christianity with a vigorous national identity that stretches over multiple centuries and continues in the hearts of some to this day?  Common sense says, “Not much.”

Don’t misunderstand, none of this is to say that Christianity is beyond some well-deserved reproach.  It is not, and such has been leveled against it at MR without objection from anyone.  However, crude critiques will continue to invite acrimonious debates such as this one.


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Posted by Silver on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 19:51 | #

Christianity’s just a spiritual tradition—a rather sensible spiritual tradition for Europeans, especially considering the alternatives.  It maintains plenty of adherents on this implicit basis alone, ie they don’t care so much for or believe in the particulars but they value the spiritual nourishment, sense of purpose and feeling of community it provides. 

This is what Haller refers to as “essential Christianity.” (A term for it, incidentally, I was using independently.)  It’s basically what the first converts, illiterates to a man, would have understood and experienced of the salvific power of Christ’s resurrection.

At this level of abstraction it should be clear the doctrine can support a wide variety of political positions.  Whatever it does, one would be hard pressed to deny Christian morality stresses “the good” (as does any morality, but we’re playing favorites).  A feeling of a community is undeniable good (except to commies, who want people to feel utterly miserable in order to precipitate revolution), thus with respect to race, Christian morality should stress that which contributes to a strong sense of community; if multiracialism can be shown to do that, Christians should stress it; if monoracialism can be shown to do a better job, Christian morality should stress that.  One size doesn’t fit all.  There are some communities whose racial mix is an essential component of their community’s identity; Christians would be fools to tamper with it.  In other communities, namely white communities, stressing the good would require the honest Christian to stress racial community (something the orthodox churches always got right).


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Posted by MOB on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 22:58 | #

Speaking of rural hearths . . . having discovered Lark Rise to Candleford through Netflix and watched the first two seasons, I was happy this weekend to be able to find the third season at my library, newly arrived.  After enjoying two of the four season 3 discs, I realized this morning that, while Lark Rise has not replaced Anne of Green Gables in my list of favorite television series, it’s so close as to be nearly tied, especially since the only character I didn’t like had the misfortune to be locked up in a debtor’s prison, someplace far way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4gsD78eahg

I’ve wondered if men watch this series as well, or if in England it’s considered female fare.  Anne of Green Gables is for all ages, wonderfully so (and there’s the Hagood Hardy music).  But Lark Rise has more fully developed characters and deals with more serious issues, beautifully so.

Realistic or not, I highly recommend it.

MOB


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Posted by Wandrin on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 00:04 | #

Speaking of rural hearths . . . having discovered Lark Rise to Candleford

Nostalgic rural shows are increasingly popular. Possibly as a reaction to what is happening. They’re viewed more as family fare than female fare i think.


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Posted by danielj on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 00:38 | #

I mean, “let US make man” and so on…
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Why have you capitalized “us” here? I don’t understand the significance.

And so on what?

The Bible is more than semi-coherent on the issue of creation. The fact that we accept the plan truth of the Scripture about creation doesn’t imply that we must accept liberalism in toto, or at all really. You refusal to accept *any* universals should give you pause. The greatest thinkers in history have spent much energy defending them against sophists of all stripes. You are much too smart not to understand what a ridiculously absurd position nominalism is. If there is no “human race” than there is no “White race” or “English” or anything else but uninterpretable brute fact and bare particulars incapable of being assimilated as knowledge.

The diversity and unity contained within the Godhead enables us to understand the relation of the particular to the universal; the fundamental epistemological issue. It isn’t wrong of Christianity, and neither does it lead us to accept Babelism as the will of God, to acknowledge the spiritual equality of mankind. It doesn’t sully up our cause to feel a twinge of sympathy for the other either or to acknowledge their “humanity” whatever that may turn out to be.


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Posted by danielj on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 00:38 | #

I own Anne of Green Gables.

I like it.


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Posted by Sam Davidson on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 03:49 | #

If over the last 60 years Christianity has got significantly weaker in America and absolutely collapsed in Europe then how the f**k can Christianity be the problem?

As far as I’m aware, no one in this thread has actually proposed that Christianity is singlehandedly responsible for the modern decline of the West.

I’m not sure who you think you’re fooling but you can’t make authoritative theological judgments about Christianity on the strength of a few lines of scripture and the remarks of one pope, such a facile treatment is as inadequate as it is offensive.

Are you saying that the words of Jesus Christ, humanity’s Lord and Savior, hold no authority within Christianity?

Moreover, even if we grant your rhetorical scraps as being more serious than they deserve what weight do they have when compared against a legacy of Europeans who were able to integrate Christianity with a vigorous national identity that stretches over multiple centuries and continues in the hearts of some to this day?  Common sense says, “Not much.”

You call my evidence “rhetorical scraps”. You label my arguments “facile”, “crude, “offensive”, and accuse them of “esoteric irrelevancy”.

The monocle has dropped into the wine glass.

This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put!


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Posted by Pro-Occidental Green on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 04:39 | #

“They talk of the triumph of the machine, / but the machine will never triumph.”

- from “The Triumph of the Machine” by DH Lawrence: http://www.kalliope.org/digt.pl?longdid=lawrence2001061629a

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“Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.”

- from I’LL TAKE MY STAND by Southern Agrarians: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA01/White/anthology/agrarian.html

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“The spectacular growth of certain great trusts and industrial mammoths has produced the hopeless feeling that mass production is an inevitable trend. The saying is that we cannot turn back the hands of the clock, although there are few machines, even clocks, that cannot be turned backward as well as forward.  Actually most biological processes go always forward, but almost never continuously upward. The dinosaur and the woolly mammoth grew great, failed to develop the necessary brains to adapt themselves to a changing environment, and passed off the stage. So may the mammoths of industry.”

- from “The Fallacy of Mass Production” by D.C. Coyle in WHO OWNS AMERICA?: A NEW DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE: http://www.isi.org/books/content/277chap1.pdf

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“The clock, not the steam-engine, is the key-machine of the modern industrial age.” - from TECHNICS AND CIVILIZATION by Lewis Mumford: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technics_and_Civilization

“The cycle of the machine is now coming to an end. Man has learned much in the hard discipline and the shrewd, unflinching grasp of practical possibilities that the machine has provided in the last three centuries: but we can no more continue to live in the world of the machine than we could live successfully on the barren surface of the moon.” - from THE CULTURE OF CITIES by Lewis Mumford: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Lewis_Mumford#The_Culture_of_Cities_.281938.29

“If we are to prevent megatechnics from further controlling and deforming every aspect of human culture, we shall be able to do so only with the aid of a radically different model derived directly, not from machines, but from living organisms and organic complexes (ecosystems).  What can be known about life only through the process of living — and so is part of even the humbles organisms — must be added to all the other aspects that can be observed, abstracted, measured. ... Once an organic world picture is in the ascendant, the working aim of an economy of plenitude will be not to feed more human functions into the machine, but to develop further man’s incalculable potentialities for self-actualization and self-transendence, taking back into himself deliberately many of the activities he has too supinely surrendered into the mechanical system.” - from THE MYTH OF THE MACHINE by Lewish Mumford: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Lewis_Mumford#The_Myth_of_the_Machine_.281967-1970.29

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“. . . the human race is beginning confusedly to understand at last that it is living in a new and unfamiliar universe. The new order was meant to be a buffer between man and nature. Unfortunately, it has evolved autonomously in such a way that man has lost all contact with his natural framework and has to do only with the organized technical intermediary which sustains relations both with the world of life and with the world of brute matter. Enclosed within his artificial creation, man finds that there is “no exit”; that he cannot pierce the shell of technology to find again the ancient milieu to which he was adapted for hundreds of thousands of years.”

- from THE TECHNOLOGICAL SOCIETY by J. Ellul: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~jsa3/hum355/readings/ellul.htm

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“The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in “advanced” countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering—even in “advanced” countries.”

- from “Industrial Society and Its Future” by T. Kaczynski: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Industrial_Society_and_Its_Future

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“An extremely potent influence, however, is the transformation of the nation from an agricultural to a manufacturing community. Heavy, healthful work in the fields of northern Europe enables the Nordic type to thrive, but the cramped factory and crowded city quickly weed him out, while the little brunet Mediterranean can work a spindle, set type, sell ribbons or push a clerk’s pen far better than the big, clumsy and somewhat heavy Nordic blond, who needs exercise, meat and air and cannot live under Ghetto conditions.

The increase of urban communities at the expense of the countryside is also an important element in the fading of the Nordic type, because the energetic countryman of this blood is more apt to improve his fortunes by moving to the city than the less ambitious Mediterranean.”

- from THE PASSING OF THE GREAT RACE by M. Grant: http://www.archive.org/details/passingofgreatra00granuoft

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“Japan was the first yellow people to go methodically to the white man’s school, and Japan’s rapid acquirement of the white man’s technology soon showed itself in dramatic demonstrations like her military triumphs over China in 1894, and over Russia a decade later.”

“Thirty years ago, Professor Pearson forecast China’s imminent industrial transformation. “Does any one doubt,” he asks, “that the day is at hand when China will have cheap fuel from her coal-mines, cheap transport by railways and steamers, and will have founded technical schools to develop her industries? Whenever that day comes, she may wrest the control of the world’s markets, especially throughout Asia, from England and Germany.”

- from THE RISING TIDE OF COLOR by Lothrop Stoddard: http://www.archive.org/details/risingtideofcolo00stoduoft

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“What is this system threatening collapse and what are the forces provoking it? Simply put, it is the techno-economic system born of 18th-century liberalism — whose principal exemplar has been the United States and Europe, but whose global impetus now holds most of the world in its grip.

These catastrophes, Faye argues, are rooted in practices native to liberal modernity. For the globalization of Western civilizational forms, particularly American-style consumerism, has created a latently chaotic situation, given that its hyper-technological, interconnected world system, dependent on international trade, driven by speculators, and indifferent to virtually every non-economic consideration, is vulnerable to a diverse range of malfunctions. Its pathological effects have indeed already begun to reach their physical limit. For once the billion-plus populations of India and China, already well embarked on the industrializing process, start mass-producing cars, the system will simply become unfit for human habitation. The resource depletion and environmental degradation that will follow are, though, only one of the system’s tipping points.

Though rejecting liberalism’s monstrous perversion of European life, Faye does so not as a New Age Luddite or a left-wing environmentalist. He argues that a technoeconomic civilization based on universalist and egalitarian principles is a loathsome abnormality — destructive of future generations and past accomplishments. But while rejecting its technological, bureaucratic, cosmopolitan, and anti-white practices, he fully accepts modern science. He simply states the obvious: that the great technological and economic accomplishments of Europe cannot be extended to the world’s six billion people — let alone tomorrow’s ten billion — without fatal consequence.”

- http://www.counter-currents.com/2010/06/the-widening-gyre/


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Posted by Pro-Occidental Green on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 04:46 | #

Oswald Spengler noted that Western technology will eventually lead to the decline of The West:

“In 1931 [Spengler] published Man and Technics, a book that reflected his fascination with the development and usage, past and future, of the technical. The development of advanced technology is unique to the West, and he predicted where it would lead. Man and Technics is a racialist book, though not in a narrow “Germanic” sense. Rather it warns the European or white races of the pressing danger from the outer Colored races. It predicts a time when the Colored peoples of the earth will use the very technology of the West to destroy the West.”

- from “Spengler: An Introduction to His Life and Ideas” by K. Stimley: http://www.toqonline.com/2009/06/spengler-an-introduction/

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“Every high Culture is a tragedy. The history of mankind as a whole is tragic. But the sacrilege and the catastrophe of the Faustian are greater than all others, greater than anything Æschylus or Shakespeare ever imagined. The creature is rising up against its creator. As once the microcosm Man against Nature, so now the microcosm Machine is revolting against Nordic Man.  The lord of the World is becoming the slave of the Machine, which is forcing him — forcing us all, whether we are aware of it or not — to follow its course. The victor, crashed, is dragged to death by the team.
...
The mechanization of the world has entered on a phase of highly dangerous over-tension. The picture of the earth, with its plants, animals, and men, has altered. In a few decades most of the great forests have gone, to be turned into news-print, and climatic changes have been thereby set afoot which imperil the land-economy of whole populations. Innumerable animal species have been extinguished, or nearly so, like the bison; whole races of humanity have been brought almost to vanishing-point, like the North American Indian and the Australian.

All things organic are dying in the grip of organization. An artificial world is permeating and poisoning the natural. The Civilization itself has become a machine that does, or tries to do, everything in mechanical fashion. We think only in horsepower now; we cannot look at a waterfall without mentally turning it into electric power; we cannot survey a countryside full of pasturing cattle without thinking of its exploitation as a source of meat-supply; we cannot look at the beautiful old handwork of an unspoilt primitive people without wishing to replace it by a modern technical process. Our technical thinking must have its actualization, sensible or senseless. The luxury of the machine is the consequence of a necessity of thought. In last analysis, the machine is a symbol, like its secret ideal, perpetual motion — a spiritual and intellectual, but no vital necessity.  It is beginning to contradict even economic practice in many ways. Alreadytheir divorce is being foreshadowed everywhere. The machine, by its multiplication and its refinement, is in the end defeating its own purpose.

...

The Faustian thought begins to be sick of machines. A weariness is spreading, a sort of pacifism of the battle with Nature. Men are returning to forms of life simpler and nearer to Nature; they are spending their time in sport instead of technical experiments. The great cities are becoming hateful to them, and they would fain get away from the pressure of soulless facts and the clear cold atmosphere of technical organization. And it is precisely the strong and creative talents that are turning away from practical problems and sciences and towards pure speculation. Occultism and Spiritualism, Hindu philosophies, metaphysical inquisitiveness under Christian or pagan colouring, all of which were despised in the Darwinian period, are coming up again. It is the spirit of Rome in the Age of Augustus. Out of satiety of life, men take refuge from civilization in the more primitive parts of the earth, in vagabondage, in suicide. The flight of the born leader from the Machine is beginning.
...
The third and most serious symptom of the collapse that is beginning lies, however, in what I may call treason to technics. What I am referring to is known to everyone, but it has never been envisaged in its entirety, and consequently its fateful significance has never disclosed itself. The immense superiority that Western Europe and North America enjoyed in the second half of the nineteenth century, in power of every kind — economic and political, military and financial — was based on an uncontested monopoly of industry. Great industries were only possible in connexion with the coal-fields of these Northern countries. The role of the rest of the world was to absorb the product, and colonial policy was always, for practical purposes, directed to the opening-up of new markets and new sources of raw material, not to the development of new areas of production. There was coal elsewhere, of course, but only the white engineers would have known how to get at it. We were in sole possession, not of the material, but of the methods and the trained intellects required for its utilization. It is this that constitutes the basis of the luxurious living of the white worker — whose income, in comparison with that of the “native,” is princely — a circumstance that Marxism has turned to dishonest account, to its own ruin. It is being revenged on us today, for from now on, evolution is going to be complicated by the problem of unemployment. The high level of wages of the white worker, which is today a peril to his very life, rests upon the monopoly that the leaders of industry have created about him.

And then, at the close of last century, the blind will-to-power began to make its decisive mistakes. Instead of keeping strictly to itself the technical knowledge that constituted their greatest asset, the “white” peoples complacently offered it to all the world, in every Hochschule, verbally and on paper, and the astonished homage of Indians and Japanese delighted them.  The famous “dissemination of industry” set in, motivated by the idea of getting bigger profits by bringing production into the marketing area. And so, in place of the export of finished products exclusively, they began an export of secrets, processes, methods, engineers, and organizers. Even the inventors emigrate, for Socialism, which could if it liked harness them in its team, expels them instead. And so presently the “natives” saw into our secrets, understood them, and used them to the full. Within thirty years the Japanese became technicians of the first rank, and in their war against Russia they revealed a technical superiority from which their teachers were able to learn many lessons. Today more or less everywhere — in the Far East, India, South America, South Africa — industrial regions are in being, or coming into being, which, owing to their low scales of wages, will face us with a deadly competition. The unassailable privileges of the white races have been thrown away, squandered, betrayed. The others have caught up with their instructors.  Possibly — with their combination of “native” cunning and the over-ripe intelligence of their ancient civilizations — they have surpassed them. Where there is coal, or oil, or water-power, there a new weapon can be forged against the heart of the Faustian Civilization. The exploited world is beginning to take its revenge on its lords. The innumerable hands of the coloured races — at least as clever, and far less exigent — will shatter the economic organization of the whites at its foundations. The accustomed luxury of the white workman, in comparison with the coolie, will be his doom. The labour of the white is itself coming to be unwanted. The huge masses of men centred in the Northern coal areas, the great industrial works, the capital invested in them, whole cities and districts, are faced with the probability of going under in the competition.  The centre of gravity of production is steadily shifting away from them, especially since even the respect of the coloured races for the white has been ended by the World War. This is the real and final basis of the unemployment that prevails in the white countries. It is no mere crisis, but the beginning of a catastrophe.
...
This machine-technics will end with the Faustian civilization and one day will lie in fragments, forgotten — our railways and steamships as dead as the Roman roads and the Chinese wall, our giant cities and skyscrapers in ruins like old Memphis and Babylon. The history of this technics is fast drawing to its inevitable close.. It will be eaten up from within, like the grand forms of any and every Culture. When, and in what fashion, we know not.”

- from MAN AND TECHNICS by Oswald Spengler: http://www.archive.org/details/ManTechnics-AContributionToAPhilosophyOfLife193253


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Posted by the Narrator... on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:44 | #

Friend, in addition to entertaining the wacky idea that a committed communist and Soviet sympathizer [Jim Jones] was the ultimate fulfillment of Christian doctrine you were exposed by Wandrin in the following exchange:

  Wandrin: In America has Christianity got stronger or weaker over the last 60 years?  If over the last 60 years Christianity has got significantly weaker in America and absolutely collapsed in Europe then how the f**k can Christianity be the problem?

  Narrator: It’s impossible to say either way as we have no idea to what extent past generations took Christianity (as a supernatural faith) seriously on a personal level.

Your unwillingness to admit the obvious - that Christianity in the West has greatly declined in all its forms and expressions over the last two generations - reveals that you can’t be taken seriously on this subject.

Posted by Notus Wind on November 01, 2010, 05:11 PM

Again, and just for you Notus Wind, I originally wrote,

The bible only has one ***semi***-consistent thread running throughout it from Genesis to Revelation, and that is the notion that there is one god and sole creator of all peoples.

Posted by the Narrator… on November 01, 2010, 08:29 AM |

You might notice the word SEMI, which I highlighted there.

Do you still not see it?

If you were as familiar with biblical text as you claim, you’d know precisely what I’m talking about. But playing dumb and brushing it off is easier, I guess.

Yahweh was part of a polytheistic cult who eventually was promoted to the “one and only” at a late date.

There are passages is the text that testify to this. Notably Deuteronomy 32 (which could be used by your side to support one aspect of your argument, but -as usual- seems to be unknown and unacknowledged.

7 Remember the days of old;
  consider the generations long past.
Ask your father and he will tell you,
  your elders, and they will explain to you.
8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
  when he divided all mankind,
he set up boundaries for the peoples
  according to the number of the sons of Israel.
9 For the LORD’s portion is his people,
  Jacob his allotted inheritance.

In the Dead Sea Scrolls, in place of “sons of Israel” (in verse 9) it reads ‘sons of god’.

So when you actually translate the titles, the verse reads,

7 Remember the days of old;
  consider the generations long past.
Ask your father and he will tell you,
  your elders, and they will explain to you.
8 When El Elyon gave the nations their inheritance,
  when he divided all mankind,
he set up boundaries for the peoples
  according to the number of his sons.
9 For Yahweh’s portion is his people,
  Israel, his allotted inheritance

And this is all setting aside the most obvious point, which is that the eventually established “one god” of the second half of the old testament is so obviously different in character from the “one god” in the new testament.
And then us course there is the trinity and so on and on and on….
.
.
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Your unwillingness to admit the obvious - that Christianity in the West has greatly declined in all its forms and expressions over the last two generations -

Posted by the Narrator… on November 01, 2010, 08:29 AM

Again sir, ye know not your own religion.

For if, as you suggest, Europe was once overwhelmingly and truly Christian, then Christ was a liar.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
MAtt. 7:13

In the New Testament Christians are repeatedly portrayed as an endlessly persecuted small minority in all places and all times (sounds familiar doesn’t it). Of course after Jesus tells believers they will be hated and killed by all men he then encourages them to go ahead and make disciples of all the men who kill them.
It’s good stuff. Really.
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The greatest thinkers in history have spent much energy defending them against sophists of all stripes. You are much too smart not to understand what a ridiculously absurd position nominalism is. If there is no “human race” than there is no “White race” or “English” or anything else but uninterpretable brute fact and bare particulars incapable of being assimilated as knowledge.

Posted by danielj on November 01, 2010, 11:38 PM

That would be a long and deep and ultimately boring and circular subject to get into. My only comment would be that,
yes,
you, I, Notus Wind, Jamal, Ping Ching, Abdul, my dog, deer, squirrels, stray cats, and several thousands of other creatures, large and small, all use oxygen, for example.
Now, whether or not squirrels should be allowed to vote is another story.

That’s how a subject like Nominalism usually unfold.
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.
.
.

It isn’t wrong of Christianity, and neither does it lead us to accept Babelism as the will of God, to acknowledge the spiritual equality of mankind.
Posted by danielj on November 01, 2010, 11:38 PM

“Acknowledge”?
It’s an article of faith. A choice to believe in things not seen or evident.

The idea of a soul or spirit or things spiritual is literally the proverbial ‘leap of faith’. If people believe, really believe, in the super-natural then all things connected to the natural (the real) begin to lose all meaning and shape.

I guess what it all boils down to is what is it that we really want.
Are we content with simply keeping our numbers high and replaceable, living contently amongst the hordes?
Or do we strive for a West that is 100% White?

If it is the second (which it is for me) will Christians be a help or hindrance to that end?

...


216

Posted by Urban racial extinction on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:54 | #

“But the decay of the white family, the inevitable outcome of megalopolitan existence, is spreading, and it is devouring the “race” of nations. The meaning of man and wife, the will to perpetuity, is being lost. People live for themselves alone, not for future generations. The nation as society, once the organic web of families, threatens to dissolve, from the city outwards, into a sum of private atoms, of which each is intent on extracting from his own and other lives the maximum of amusement – panem et circenses. The women’s emancipation of Ibsen’s time wanted, not freedom from the husband, but freedom from the child, from the burden of children, just as men’s emancipation in the same period signified freedom from the duties towards family, nation, and State. The whole of Liberal-Socialistic problem-literature revolves about this suicide of the white race. It has been the same in all other Civilizations.”

- http://ia341210.us.archive.org/2/items/TheHourOfDecision/HOD.pdf


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Posted by Leon Haller on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:17 | #

I’m pleased that I have played some part in stimulating this debate on Christianity and WN, and I appreciate those responses directed to me. The following statements of mine, which I judge the most useful of what I have posted on this thread, have not been addressed (unless I missed someone), and deserve to be, as they are the heart of the issue as I see it:

Does Christianity properly, theologically, forbid, again, sub-universal attachments, such as unequal concern for nation and race - or can we embrace our own cultural particularity, and practice demographic exclusivity?

Let me reiterate: we do not need to resolve the existence or non-existence of God, the nature of justice, even whether Christianity condemns racism, properly understood. For our strategic racialist purposes we only have to show that stopping immigration and outlawing miscegenation (and in Europe’s case, repatriation of non-indigenes) are not actually forbidden by essential Christian doctrine. (me)

So: Are patriotism, stopping immigration, and anti-miscegenation laws (a followup would pertain to mere anti-miscegenation sentiment) un-Christian? More problematically, would European racial repatriations of non-indigenes be forbidden by Christianity (I refer to core doctrine, not the predictable actions of ecclesiastical authorities)?

I think these questions form the “nationalist minimum wrt Christianity”; that is, the questions respecting the Faith which are relevant to nationalists. They deserve (terse) answers. Let’s hear them.

For my part, I don’t think that Nazism (or any aggressive, as opposed to defensive and/or remedial, nationalism) can be conformed to Christian doctrine. The compatibility of the nationalist minimum with Christianity, however, seems obvious to me.


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Posted by danielj on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 14:01 | #

And this is all setting aside the most obvious point, which is that the eventually established “one god” of the second half of the old testament is so obviously different in character from the “one god” in the new testament.

And then us course there is the trinity and so on and on and on….

Firstly, the trinity is in the O.T. There are pre-incarnate Christ figures, Christophanies, etc. You quoted the verse from Genesis that talks about “us” making man. The trinity is there from the very beginning. Additionally, I’ve written (as have many others) on how the trinity actually presents a pretty decent solution for the epistemological problem of the one and the many by presupposing an ontology with the Triune God at the back of the unity and diversity we see in the universe.

Secondly, the continuity and discontinuity between the Old and New Testament is an interesting subject but anybody that takes sola scriptura seriously and has adopted almost any of the orthodox systematical hermeneutics can see that it is the same God administrating the same covenant in both testaments.

Israel’s flight from Egypt and crossing of the Red Sea represents a modern Christians salvation from the Devil (Pharoah) and Hell, and our pilgrimage (waking life on the earth) to the Promised Land (Heaven) flowing with milk and honey (salvation and eternal life). The things that occur in the O.T. are spiritual pictures completely in line with the character of the God of the N.T.

You might notice the word SEMI, which I highlighted there.

I noticed it the first time. We all saw it. It just doesn’t change the thrust of your comment or my criticism of your comment and, it isn’t a correct reading of the Bible.

That would be a long and deep and ultimately boring and circular subject to get into.

A subject you couldn’t even talk about. There are no such things as circles and therefore no such thing as circular and no way to even relate the two concepts.

I guess what it all boils down to is what is it that we really want.
Are we content with simply keeping our numbers high and replaceable, living contently amongst the hordes?
Or do we strive for a West that is 100% White?

You already know how we would all answer that question.


219

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 14:51 | #

For my part, I don’t think that Nazism (or any aggressive, as opposed to defensive and/or remedial, nationalism) can be conformed to Christian doctrine. The compatibility of the nationalist minimum with Christianity, however, seems obvious to me.

And I would agree, given the following:

1) This popular “Christianity” is no more than the belief that one will attain “Heaven,” in this world or the next, through the forgiveness of obstructive sin (by virtue of belief in Jesus as the ever-indulgent Savior, or in the priest as a potent intercessory agent).  This procedure basically involves no more than confession prompted by a childish/effeminate sense of having sinned, rather than mature attendance to ethical/moral specifications which would otherwise immensely complicate matters upon examination.

2) This minimalist “nationalism” falls far short of what needs to be addressed of existential issues.  The global class war, referenced in the posts above, will see to the death of the West, long before the immigration issue has altogether submerged the otherwise comfortable bourgeois bigot.

3) In addressing the existential crisis, an examination of its roots, nature, status, and prospects involves elevating the discussion of “Christianity” (and many another issue) to a plane above that with and in which the Women and Children of proposition (1), above, are comfortable or capable.  At this point, Christianity, in its ethical and philosophical inversions, becomes a distinct liability in terms of the survival of the race and of civilization on the planet.

4) And finally, and in summary, Men rise above and counter this and other liabilities as thoughtful and courageous latter-day Nietzscheans and Nazis.


220

Posted by Sam Davidson on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 15:42 | #

Does Christianity properly, theologically, forbid, again, sub-universal attachments, such as unequal concern for nation and race - or can we embrace our own cultural particularity, and practice demographic exclusivity?

Yes. If one believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings one must abandon ideas of racial and even family bonds because such things are superseded by spiritual concerns.

John the Baptist says in Matthew 3:9 that blood relatedness is unimportant.

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Likewise, Jesus repeats the idea of a spiritual-based kinship in Matthew 12:48.

The biological family is dealt with directly in Matthew 10:35.

For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

Even if we argue that Jesus was not promoting the breakdown of family bonds, he certainly saw it as inevitable given the nature of his teachings.

For our strategic racialist purposes we only have to show that stopping immigration and outlawing miscegenation (and in Europe’s case, repatriation of non-indigenes) are not actually forbidden by essential Christian doctrine.

By all means do so.

So: Are patriotism, stopping immigration, and anti-miscegenation laws (a followup would pertain to mere anti-miscegenation sentiment) un-Christian?

Yes. If someone wrongs you, as other races do to us, you are commanded to submit. So, when the blacks are living in “cities they did not build” and eating “food they did not grow” (deuteronomy 6:11) we should, as Christians, do nothing to stop them.

Matthew 5:39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 47
But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

More problematically, would European racial repatriations of non-indigenes be forbidden by Christianity (I refer to core doctrine, not the predictable actions of ecclesiastical authorities)?

It might depend on the context. It wouldn’t work in practice, though.


221

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 15:52 | #

“Does Christianity properly, theologically, forbid, again, sub-universal attachments, such as unequal concern for nation and race - or can we embrace our own cultural particularity, and practice demographic exclusivity?”

Yes. If one believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings one must abandon ideas of racial and even family bonds because such things are superseded by spiritual concerns.

Yes - “properly” - Christianity forbids.  [...as theology/ethics/morality]

No - “popularly” - Christianity does not forbid.  [...as a mere free ticket to Never Never Land]

This discussion will be stupidly interminable unless this distinction is kept in mind.


222

Posted by the Narrator... on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 16:25 | #

Firstly, the trinity is in the O.T. There are pre-incarnate Christ figures, Christophanies, etc. You quoted the verse from Genesis that talks about “us” making man.
Posted by danielj on November 02, 2010, 01:01 PM

The word there is Elohim, which basically means the heavenly host or gods and the angels. Definitely more than three.
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.
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the trinity actually presents a pretty decent solution for the epistemological problem of the one and the many by presupposing an ontology with the Triune God at the back of the unity and diversity we see in the universe.
Posted by danielj on November 02, 2010, 01:01 PM

And you can also use it to illustrate the unity and diversity in major metropolitan areas. Whites, blacks, hispansic, jews, arabs and the rest, all “American”.

That’s the problem and the door that is opened by such a notion.
.
.
.
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Israel’s flight from Egypt and crossing of the Red Sea represents a modern Christians salvation from the Devil (Pharoah) and Hell, and our pilgrimage (waking life on the earth) to the Promised Land (Heaven) flowing with milk and honey (salvation and eternal life). The things that occur in the O.T. are spiritual pictures completely in line with the character of the God of the N.T.

Posted by danielj on November 02, 2010, 01:01 PM

So then how does the rest of the story (the first half) work into that analogy?
You know the part where Israel insinuates themselves into Egyptian society, usurp it, and then enslave the Egyptian people, plundering the country?
And what about the mass slaughter of the people in the “promised land”?
Should the angels be looking over their shoulders?
.
.
.
.
I wrote, “That would be a long and deep and ultimately boring and circular subject to get into. yes,
you, I, Notus Wind, Jamal, Ping Ching, Abdul, my dog, deer, squirrels, stray cats, and several thousands of other creatures, large and small, all use oxygen, for example.
Now, whether or not squirrels should be allowed to vote is another story.

That’s how a subject like Nominalism usually unfold. “

You reply,

A subject you couldn’t even talk about. There are no such things as circles and therefore no such thing as circular and no way to even relate the two concepts.

Posted by danielj on November 02, 2010, 01:01 PM

See what I mean?
.
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.
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“You might notice the word SEMI, which I highlighted there.”

I noticed it the first time. We all saw it. It just doesn’t change the thrust of your comment

Posted by danielj on November 02, 2010, 01:01 PM

I didn’t think it was missed, I was just pointing out that Wandrin and Notus Wind were rather conveniently overlooking it in an attempt to misconstrue what I wrote.

...


223

Posted by the Narrator... on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 16:30 | #

I guess what it all boils down to is what is it that we really want.
Are we content with simply keeping our numbers high and replaceable, living contently amongst the hordes?
Or do we strive for a West that is 100% White?

You already know how we would all answer that question.

Posted by danielj on November 02, 2010, 01:01 PM

The critical question there was,

If it is the second (which it is for me) will Christians be a help or hindrance to that end?

...


224

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 17:08 | #

The critical question there was,

If it is the second (which it is for me [a 100 percent-er]) will Christians be a help or hindrance to that end?

It depends, of course, upon to which type of “Christian” you refer and appeal.

Numbskull or fanatic.

As analyzed, above, your chances are immensely enhanced by concentrating on the numbskulls.


225

Posted by Notus Wind on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 20:18 | #

Narrator,

For if, as you suggest, Europe was once overwhelmingly and truly Christian, then Christ was a liar.

My point was that the countries of our forebears were able to maintain a vigorous national identity alongside a Christian religious identity for several centuries.  It is merely a prosaic political observation of mine and has nothing to say about what fraction of these people entered the kingdom of heaven as referenced in Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23.

The bible only has one ***semi***-consistent thread running throughout it from Genesis to Revelation, and that is the notion that there is one god and sole creator of all peoples.
...
Yahweh was part of a polytheistic cult who eventually was promoted to the “one and only” at a late date.

There are passages is the text that testify to this. Notably Deuteronomy 32 (which could be used by your side to support one aspect of your argument, but -as usual- seems to be unknown and unacknowledged.
...
In the Dead Sea Scrolls, in place of “sons of Israel” (in verse 9) it reads ‘sons of god’.
...
The idea of a soul or spirit or things spiritual is literally the proverbial ‘leap of faith’. If people believe, really believe, in the super-natural then all things connected to the natural (the real) begin to lose all meaning and shape.
...
The word there is Elohim, which basically means the heavenly host or gods and the angels. Definitely more than three.

While I perfectly understand everything you’ve written here I fail to see its significance to the discussion in this thread.  Do you have a coherent point to all of these disparate remarks of yours?


226

Posted by Notus Wind on Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:23 | #

Sam,

Are you saying that the words of Jesus Christ…hold no authority within Christianity?

Of course not.

You call my evidence “rhetorical scraps”. You label my arguments “facile”, “crude, “offensive”, and accuse them of “esoteric irrelevancy”.

[sigh]

I’m just being honest if a little harsh.

For example, consider your quotation of Luke 14:26; no eminent Christian thinker would conclude on the basis of this verse that in order to follow Christ one must literally hate his biological family or even the milder claim that biological relations are unimportant.  The reason for this is that no one - not even the stereotypical fundamentalist Protestant - reads the Bible in a solely literal manner; rather, it is always read and interpreted in a manner that is believed to be most appropriate in context, which can sometimes be more literal or figurative depending.

To pick out a few verses and act as if they are to be understood prima facie and completely ignore how the Christian tradition has dealt with them in the context of everything else is to engage in a very crude form of analysis.


227

Posted by MOB on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 00:14 | #

The women’s emancipation of Ibsen’s time wanted, not freedom from the husband, but freedom from the child, from the burden of children, just as men’s emancipation in the same period signified freedom from the duties towards family, nation, and State.

Incorrect.  Women sought their own identity, separate from husbands or children—not physically separate, but psychologically separate, psychologically independent.

Dependence on others for one’s personal identity—not knowing who you are or having a self to stand up for—is unhealthy; it cripples.

Ibsen believed society’s treatment of women was unjust; that’s what he wrote about


228

Posted by danielj on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 03:14 | #

John the Baptist says in Matthew 3:9 that blood relatedness is unimportant.

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

That specific passage relates directly to salvation. You are misinterpreting it.

Yes - “properly” - Christianity forbids.  [...as theology/ethics/morality]

No - “popularly” - Christianity does not forbid.  [...as a mere free ticket to Never Never Land]

This discussion will be stupidly interminable unless this distinction is kept in mind.

Excellent point.

The word there is Elohim, which basically means the heavenly host or gods and the angels. Definitely more than three.

Come on. Let us not get pedantic about Hebrew unless there is a Hebrew scholar in here. We can all Google. It is an obvious reference to the trinity which is a doctrine that is clearly elucidated throughout *all* of the Scriptures. Sola Scriptura means that we approach the Bible as an organic whole.

There isn’t even much about the “Heavenly Host” itself that is not God. The Archangel Michael is most probably a preincarnate Christ, the Cherubim of Ezekiel and the other major prophets are most likely a picture of the Holy Spirit. It is all there.

And you can also use it to illustrate the unity and diversity in major metropolitan areas. Whites, blacks, hispansic, jews, arabs and the rest, all “American”.

That’s the problem and the door that is opened by such a notion.

Yes, but I would argue that it doesn’t open that door and that it is misuse of the principle that creates the situation. And really, it is untheological, bitch-ass niggers, kikes and liberal whites that are trying to shove the words of Christ down our collective throats, out of context, to induce guilt. It is the foreigners themselves and our own mistaking white guilt for the conviction of the Holy Spirit that are the problem.

So then how does the rest of the story (the first half) work into that analogy?
You know the part where Israel insinuates themselves into Egyptian society, usurp it, and then enslave the Egyptian people, plundering the country?
And what about the mass slaughter of the people in the “promised land”?
Should the angels be looking over their shoulders?

The period of slavery in Egypt is a picture of our bondage to sin and the second death and the usurping Christ-figure (Moses) is a picture of spiritual redemption and our plundering and conquering over Satan.

See what I mean?

Debating a nominalist is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

I didn’t think it was missed, I was just pointing out that Wandrin and Notus Wind were rather conveniently overlooking it in an attempt to misconstrue what I wrote.

I see.

The critical question there was,

If it is the second (which it is for me) will Christians be a help or hindrance to that end?

I would bet you ten grand that Christians will get it done before atheists or pagans of any stripe do.

Regardless, Christians are probably indispensable even if the faithless spearhead the movement. They must either reunderstand their religion, or be reeducated, or that nasty faith gene must be bred out of the gene pool for the revolution to finally get televised.


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Posted by Grimoire on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 04:10 | #

This discussion concerning anti- Christianity, Nazism, Nietzscheanism, whatever-have-you…is a self-defeating pathology created by ‘predicate-thinking’...that has been well in-calculated in your mind. It is a result of your Anglo-American culture replacing the core ‘things as they are’ - ‘Ding an Sich’ thinking’ (Hellenic/Roman /European/Academic) world view, with ‘Value as transcendent end to all things’ ... Judeo-Christian (not European Christian) world-view.

Thus NeoNietzsche the American, does not realize his learning as an old weapon in a new war, but defaults to the legal brief prepared for the court of opinion.

Thus Guessedworker, English… subsumed by the pathology - conforms all thinking to it and is incapable of consistent or clear thought….not even the recognition of such.  He will fail to see or refuse to see or admit the most obvious truths…and will justify his ingrained need for failure time and again by turning to an idealized and incoherent ‘values’, which are transcendent thus incapable of bearing teleological or historical inquiry.


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Posted by Al Ross on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 04:41 | #

“If anyone…does not HATE his own father and mother and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be My disciple” - Luke 14: 26

I look forward to further amusing theological fantasies from danielj


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Posted by the Narrator... on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 04:47 | #

Do you have a coherent point to all of these disparate remarks of yours?

Posted by Notus Wind on November 02, 2010, 07:18 PM |

Not one that you could follow, so don’t let it worry you.
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Come on. Let us not get pedantic about Hebrew unless there is a Hebrew scholar in here. We can all Google.

Posted by danielj on November 03, 2010, 02:14 AM |

I didn’t google. I have a Strong’s Concordance, which allows you to trace the etymology of darn near every word in the bible.
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The Archangel Michael is most probably a preincarnate Christ, the Cherubim of Ezekiel and the other major prophets are most likely a picture of the Holy Spirit. It is all there.

Posted by danielj on November 03, 2010, 02:14 AM

That’s a denominational take on things though. Whole other argument.
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And really, it is untheological, bitch-ass niggers, kikes and liberal whites that are trying to shove the words of Christ down our collective throats, out of context, to induce guilt. It is the foreigners themselves and our own mistaking white guilt for the conviction of the Holy Spirit that are the problem.

Posted by danielj on November 03, 2010, 02:14 AM

It’s also Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Rick Warren, Emergent Churches and the mainstream in general. That spirit has been there all along. From the mythology surrounding the first Thanksgiving (with the injuns) to the abolitionists to the “civil rights” movement.

How many Christians today, famous or not, denounce the “civil rights” movement?
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The period of slavery in Egypt is a picture of our bondage to sin and the second death and the usurping Christ-figure (Moses) is a picture of spiritual redemption and our plundering and conquering over Satan.

Posted by danielj on November 03, 2010, 02:14 AM

You’re stretching there just a little.
In the narrative, Joseph usurps the king and then proceeds to ruin the county. When he is done, Egypt is financially broke, militarized and the Egyptian people have been INTENTIONALLY driven to poverty and slavery, rounded up and forced into prepared ghettos. The hebrews, on the other hand, take their want of the plundered goods.
Joseph is more like Satan than the Pharaoh. The Pharaoh is actually about the only descent character in the whole story, as he acts to defend his people.

From Genesis 47 (After Joseph, a foreigner, had the people’s grain forcefully taken away from them for seven years,

Then Joseph came and told Pharaoh, and said, My father and my brethren, and their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have, are come out of the land of Canaan; and, behold, they are in the land of Goshen.
5 And Pharaoh spake unto Joseph, saying, Thy father and thy brethren are come unto thee:
6 The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell; in the land of Goshen let them dwell: and if thou knowest any men of activity among them, then make them rulers over my cattle.
...

12 And Joseph nourished his father, and his brethren, and all his father’s household, with bread, according to their families.
13 And there was no bread in all the land; for the famine was very sore, so that the land of Egypt and all the land of Canaan fainted by reason of the famine.
14 And Joseph gathered up all the money that was found in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, for the corn which they bought: and Joseph brought the money into Pharaoh’s house.
...

  15 And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence? for the money faileth.
  16 And Joseph said, Give your cattle; and I will give you for your cattle, if money fail.
  17 And they brought their cattle unto Joseph: and Joseph gave them bread in exchange for horses, and for the flocks, and for the cattle of the herds, and for the asses: and he fed them with bread for all their cattle for that year.
...

19 Wherefore shall we die before thine eyes, both we and our land? buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be servants unto Pharaoh: and give us seed, that we may live, and not die, that the land be not desolate.
20 And Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for Pharaoh; for the Egyptians sold every man his field, because the famine prevailed over them: so the land became Pharaoh’s.

...

21 And as for the people, he removed them to cities from one end of the borders of Egypt even to the other end thereof.

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23 Then Joseph said unto the people, Behold, I have bought you this day and your land for Pharaoh

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27 And Israel dwelt in the land of Egypt, in the country of Goshen; and they had possessions therein, and grew, and multiplied exceedingly.

Joseph takes their grains. Takes their money out of circulation so that they can’t buy back their own grain. Then he uses the money and the famine, which he intentionally made worse, to drive them to starvation and force them to sell the belongings, their lands, their homes and eventually themselves. They are then rounded up like cattle and forced into ghettos.

Meanwhile, Joseph’s people are living high on the hog off a plundered and ruined nation. Of course Exodus picks up a completely different narrative where the Hebrews are now magically a poor persecuted people.

It all has a familiar and redundant theme to it.
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I would bet you ten grand that Christians will get it done before atheists or pagans of any stripe do.

Posted by danielj on November 03, 2010, 02:14 AM |

Even 2000 years ago European Christians kept welcoming foreigners like Paul into their midst. Jesus himself was (at least) half oriental and he’s welcome into their hearts.

As you know, Pagan was a descriptive word for the rural, un-cosmopolitan, tribal folk who resisted foreign people and ideas.

It was picked up by Christians and used derisively for people who wouldn’t sing along with “we are the world”.

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Posted by danielj on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 04:53 | #

I look forward to further amusing theological fantasies from danielj

Shut the fuck up. Nobody cares what you look forward to. If you are incapable of understanding rhetorical device than perhaps you should keep your mouth shut?

It is a first principle of any orthodox hermeneutic that one passage of Scripture does not nullify another passage.

Mark 7:10-13 “For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”

Ephesians 6:2 “Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) “


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Posted by Al Ross on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:10 | #

Anger is a sin, so danielj is a very naughty man. Also, in the Bad Book of Jewish fairy - tales so beloved of those, like the hopeless nitwit, danielj, who prefer to keep their powers of reasoning (if such there be) in abeyance, the New Testament trumps the Old one in the matter of precepts.


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Posted by danielj on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:16 | #

I didn’t google. I have a Strong’s Concordance, which allows you to trace the etymology of darn near every word in the bible.

Strong’s should be restricted to Greek. There are much better Hebrew concordances.

Although, it was very funny what you did there wink

That’s a denominational take on things though. Whole other argument.

Ok. Well here is the same take from the N.T. in plain translated Greek: And beginning from Moses, and from all the prophets, He explained to them the things about Himself in all the Scriptures.
(Luk 24:27)

It’s also Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Rick Warren, Emergent Churches and the mainstream in general.

I know. That is just the way the cookie crumbles. 

That spirit has been there all along. From the mythology surrounding the first Thanksgiving (with the injuns) to the abolitionists to the “civil rights” movement.

Again, you might as well say that spirit is just in White people. We’ve went round and round on this. The Romans succumbed to it.

How many Christians today, famous or not, denounce the “civil rights” movement?

You know us all. The Kinists, a few of the unreconstructed and some other odd balls.

You’re stretching there just a little.

No. I wasn’t referring to that period. I was referring to the Exodus period. Joseph and his brothers are a whole different story with its own moral. Although, your point is technically correct. The Jews eventually take over.

It was picked up by Christians and used derisively for people who wouldn’t sing along with “we are the world”.

If you e-mail your address, I’ll send you Law and Revolution and I know you’ll like it. It addresses the subject of Christianization in a scholarly and slightly more dispassionate tone than the one you’ve adopted but I’m sure you’ll find its contents interesting.


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Posted by danielj on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:21 | #

Anger is a sin, so danielj is a very naughty man. Also, in the Bad Book of Jewish fairy - tales so beloved of those, like the hopeless nitwit, danielj, who prefer to keep their powers of reasoning (if such there be) in abeyance, the New Testament trumps the Old one in the matter of precepts.

In general, there is presumed continuity where discontinuity is not made explicit.

After all, it is a requirement of a never-changing God to not change which would logically lead us to presume that he administers one dispensation throughout a history that is linear and teleological.

I love you Al. I just wish you weren’t such a dick. Come drink some Scotch. My New Year’s Resolution ends the day before Thanksgiving and I can start drinking again.


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Posted by Al Ross on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:27 | #

Scotch sounds good. At least Jesus turned the water into wine, not Coca Cola.


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Posted by danielj on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:32 | #

Scotch sounds good. At least Jesus turned the water into wine, not Coca Cola.

This is better than “good”... I don’t do swill brah. I come correct.


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Posted by danielj on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 05:37 | #

Again, you might as well say that spirit is just in White people. We’ve went round and round on this. The Romans succumbed to it.

In fact, to drive the point home, Paul was a well educated Roman citizen…


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Posted by Book Recommendation on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 06:27 | #

Read The Restoration of the Peasantries, With especial reference to that of India by G.T. Wrench (1939) - http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_Rest/RestToC.html

Argues, in Wrench’s wise and admirable style, that the health—indeed, the very continuation of our civilization—depends on the health and prosperity of agricultural producers, and shows how the thrust of finance-based civilization has worked to destroy their very existence. A fascinating look at how villages work—and how they’re reduced to poverty and worse. Full text online.


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Posted by Occidental Ecocide on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 07:02 | #

By returning to the soil as its food that which has once taken its life from the soil, the balance between life and death is kept. This is the principle of the continuity of life upon the earth. In lack of reverence for this principle owing to its absorption in “progress,” the modern era has failed and death is overtaking life. In the words of Professor N. S. Shaler of Harvard University, in the National Geographic Magazine, 1896: “If mankind cannot devise and enforce ways of dealing with the earth which will preserve the source of life, we must look forward to a time—remote it may be, yet clearly discernible—when our kind, having wasted its great inheritance, will fade from the earth because of the ruin it has accomplished.”

The countries of western civilization no longer get from their own soils all that which their civilization requires. They require grains, fruits, sugar, flesh, wool, hides, cotton, fibres, oils, rubber, timber, and so on, for their food, bags, ropes, paper, clothes, buildings, oilcakes, gun-powders, tyres, and countless other articles for “the increase in the numbers and the keenness of their rational wants.”

These substances are the transformed foods of many soils, destined under nature to be returned to the soil, or, in an agriculture based on the natural process such as that of the Chinese, returned by men to the soil.

What do the western peoples of to-day return to the lands from which they take their needs? Do they return to the soil, after its use, all that which once took life from the soil? Do they allow the wheel of life and death its equable revolution from soil to plant, from plant to animal, and from plant, animal and man again to the soil, by restoring in full measure such vehicles of life as they have borrowed for their service? The reply is that they do not.

- http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_Rest/Rest5.html


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 14:19 | #

Grim,

This discussion concerning anti- Christianity, Nazism, Nietzscheanism, whatever-have-you…is a self-defeating pathology created by ‘predicate-thinking’...that has been well in-calculated in your mind. It is a result of your Anglo-American culture replacing the core ‘things as they are’ - ‘Ding an Sich’ thinking’ (Hellenic/Roman /European/Academic) world view, with ‘Value as transcendent end to all things’ ... Judeo-Christian (not European Christian) world-view.

Thus NeoNietzsche the American, does not realize his learning as an old weapon in a new war, but defaults to the legal brief prepared for the court of opinion.

I have the impression that ‘Ding an Sich’ (noumenal/essentialist/Platonic/Kantian/Rationalist/Realist) thinking is, to the contrary, ancient and wearyingly misconstructive and self-delusory.  It occasions interminable dispute and disquisition to no effective resolution other than exhaustion pro tempore.  (I adduce the present stupid dispute as an example and evidence thereof.)

Rather I find antithetical Nominalism and analytic philosophy to be usefully solvent of fictitious difficulties - despite the affiliation of those epistemological orientations with Anglo-Saxon culture - with which culture I am otherwise at odds.

And I do not recognize the intent of “Value as transcendent end to all things” or its applicability to myself - unless this references recognition of the value/fact distinction of which party I am a member.

But perhaps I misunderstand the complaint and would profit by an explanation.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:14 | #

BTW, Grim,

Is this what you (mistakenly) take to be “predicate thinking”:?

Yes - “properly” - Christianity forbids.  [...as theology/ethics/morality]

No - “popularly” - Christianity does not forbid.  [...as a mere free ticket to Never Never Land]


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Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:27 | #

Grim,

Thus Guessedworker, English… subsumed by the pathology - conforms all thinking to it and is incapable of consistent or clear thought….not even the recognition of such.  He will fail to see or refuse to see or admit the most obvious truths…and will justify his ingrained need for failure time and again by turning to an idealized and incoherent ‘values’, which are transcendent thus incapable of bearing teleological or historical inquiry.

To a small degree you are correct.  Where you think through the particular questions of meaning which interest us, I experience.  That is the essence of the difference in our respective modus operandi.  Because I see and understand the bias peculiar to your way, I can afford to respect it for what it is, and have repeatedly said so.  Because you see the descriptive limitations of mine but do not understand what its advantages are - something also repeatedly said here - you cannot offer respect in return.

In saying this we are only repeating what we have said many times.  Thought cannot experience, and experience cannot communicate beyond its regimen.  Not a cause for conflict but surely one for charity.


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Posted by Sam Davidson on Wed, 03 Nov 2010 18:21 | #

That specific passage relates directly to salvation. You are misinterpreting it.

John the Baptist told certain persons that being a descendant of Abraham was not enough to save them. Thus, blood ties are not as important as repentance, faith, etc. Would you agree?

Of course not.

Then how can you disagree with the words of Christ? You’re running in circles.

For example, consider your quotation of Luke 14:26; no eminent Christian thinker would conclude on the basis of this verse that in order to follow Christ one must literally hate his biological family or even the milder claim that biological relations are unimportant.

Prove it.

Personally, I’m willing to concede that Jesus was using hyperbole in this instance and did not mean an ‘active’ hate, but rather a decrease in love relative to Christ. However, if one upholds that ‘honoring one’s mother and father’ is important, then why does Jesus Christ tell one of his followers to not bother burying his dead father? This kind of neglect of his father’s corpse is an insult:

Luke 9:59, 60, 61, 62

He said to another man, “Follow me.” But the man replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family.”
Jesus replied, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”

Not only does Jesus Christ want this man to abandon his family (perhaps because they are unbelievers), but he also wants him to do it without feeling any guilt or last-minute affection.

To pick out a few verses and act as if they are to be understood prima facie and completely ignore how the Christian tradition has dealt with them in the context of everything else is to engage in a very crude form of analysis.

I have put these ideas into context multiple times. But it doesn’t matter, because you’ve already formed your opinion and have decided to nobly stand your ground. Like a Roman soldier at Pompeii who defies reality until the end as a volcano of logic buries you. How crude of it to erupt! How acrimonious!


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Posted by danielj on Thu, 04 Nov 2010 01:06 | #

John the Baptist told certain persons that being a descendant of Abraham was not enough to save them. Thus, blood ties are not as important as repentance, faith, etc. Would you agree?

That blood won’t save you? Of course. That doesn’t mean blood ties aren’t “important” at all, but rather, that they aren’t important with regard to salvation (excepting that fact that Jesus had to descend through a certain line). Blood doesn’t really factor into the equation in most ways. The point is that we aren’t saved by any of our works or our bloodline but by grace alone. God will save from all classes of men without distinction. Granting this, He nevertheless seems to save mostly the children of Japheth much like He said He would do by way of the blessing of Noah’s sons by Noah.


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Posted by the Narrator... on Thu, 04 Nov 2010 04:54 | #

Ok. Well here is the same take from the N.T. in plain translated Greek: And beginning from Moses, and from all the prophets, He explained to them the things about Himself in all the Scriptures.
(Luk 24:27)

Posted by danielj on November 03, 2010, 04:16 AM

Yes, but that is the assertion of the author about an assertion of Jesus. And the reason to doubt that is obvious. The New Testament writers had access (or knowledge of) to Old Testament texts. So they could wrap their narrative around that to say, “see, he fulfilled scripture.”
That’s not nit-picking. That’s a literal and justifiable reason to doubt the narrative.
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Again, you might as well say that spirit is just in White people. We’ve went round and round on this. The Romans succumbed to it.

Posted by danielj on November 03, 2010, 04:16 AM

As I said in this thread and other places, the “Christian spirit” is about 80% indigenous to European peoples. What I further assert though, is that that spirit is harmful and representative of the absolute worst aspects of the Greco-Roman heritage.
It’s inherited (in the blood), for certain. But then so is alcoholism.
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No. I wasn’t referring to that period. I was referring to the Exodus period.

Posted by danielj on November 03, 2010, 04:16 AM

Wouldn’t the two be connected? You wrote that Egypt was representative of our bandage to sin, yet our bondage to sin is a condition of our having been born, which we have no control or choice over.
The hebrews chose to go into Egypt.
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That doesn’t mean blood ties aren’t “important” at all, but rather, that they aren’t important with regard to salvation (excepting that fact that Jesus had to descend through a certain line).

Posted by danielj on November 03, 2010, 04:16 AM

Now this may be nitpicking, but isn’t is odd that the bible bothers to establish Jesus’s descent from David since after a thousand years and the population size of Palestine pretty much everybody alive there
at the time would have been a descendant of David?

...


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Posted by danielj on Thu, 04 Nov 2010 14:03 | #

Yes, but that is the assertion of the author about an assertion of Jesus. And the reason to doubt that is obvious. The New Testament writers had access (or knowledge of) to Old Testament texts. So they could wrap their narrative around that to say, “see, he fulfilled scripture.”

That’s not nit-picking. That’s a literal and justifiable reason to doubt the narrative.

Not when you are operating under my presuppositions regarding the cannon, viz. that the Bible is an organic whole and is to be treated as a unit. The problem we have here is that I don’t adopt the critical (and I don’t mean naive or unscholarly, but the actual theological term) stance and you do. I believe that Jesus was the fulfillment of all Scripture. Take Psalm 22 for example. I believe that David was talking about, or even as a type of, Christ where you believe that N.T. authors somehow fabricated the stories about the guards casting lots for the clothing of Christ. I believe that it was kind of miraculous that King David described a method of execution that didn’t exist yet fairly accurately where you believe it was coincidence or later interpolation.

We have fundamentally conflicting world views with different presuppositions. Thankfully, mine is capable of strict justification of knowledge.

As I said in this thread and other places, the “Christian spirit” is about 80% indigenous to European peoples. What I further assert though, is that that spirit is harmful and representative of the absolute worst aspects of the Greco-Roman heritage.

It’s inherited (in the blood), for certain. But then so is alcoholism.

So start adopting the more precise language of GW and blame the gene specifically. Christianity isn’t the problem, 80% of the White population is.

Wouldn’t the two be connected? You wrote that Egypt was representative of our bandage to sin, yet our bondage to sin is a condition of our having been born, which we have no control or choice over.
The hebrews chose to go into Egypt.

They don’t have to be connected necessarily. I didn’t write the Bible, I just try to interpret it properly.

Regarding being born into sin, that is the doctrine of total depravity and it is in there. We are born into sin and I can quote much Scripture to that effect, hence the name, original sin or ancestral sin.

Not to quibble, but they didn’t choose to go. They were starving and rode out the famine there.

Now this may be nitpicking, but isn’t is odd that the bible bothers to establish Jesus’s descent from David since after a thousand years and the population size of Palestine pretty much everybody alive there at the time would have been a descendant of David?

You think everybody in Roman Palestine was a descendant of David? I don’t know enough to argue against that assertion but I it sounds like an absurd assertion to me.


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Posted by danielj on Thu, 04 Nov 2010 14:08 | #

(and I don’t mean naive or unscholarly, but the actual theological term)

That should read: and I don’t mean that I’ve adopted a naive or unscholarly stance but that I’ve not adopted the “high criticism” of modern theologians.


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Posted by Notus Wind on Fri, 05 Nov 2010 01:38 | #

Narrator,

Not one that you could follow, so don’t let it worry you.

Hehe.  Fair enough, whether monotheistic Judaism came out of of an earlier polytheistic belief system was always an academic question insofar as I’m concerned.


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Posted by Notus Wind on Fri, 05 Nov 2010 04:39 | #

Sam,

Prove it.

The very first commentary [Coffman’s] that Google provided says the following in regards to Luke 14:26:

Verses [Luke 14:] 25, 26
Now there went with him great multitudes: and he turned and said unto them, If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also he cannot be my disciple.
...
Hateth
as applied here to father, mother, wife, etc., means “to love less,” and is void of the sentiments usually associated with that word today. The Biblical use of this word becomes clear when it is recalled that Jacob loved Rachel more than Leah (Genesis 29:30), and that the next verse says that “The Lord saw that Leah was hated.” The truly difficult part of the requirement in view here is in the words, “yea, and his own life also,” Loving the Lord more than self is the plan of salvation.

According to Coffman, the English word “hate” is not be understood literally.

Similarly, other commentaries reveal that the meaning behind Matthew 10:35 is that Christ’s message will divide even the closest of earthly relationships and the meaning behind Matthew 12:48-50 is that kinship with Christ is spiritually based.  You should note that none of this implies that our earthly ties aren’t important, which was Leon’s original point, and in fact other parts of scripture reveal that they are.

The anti-nationalist universalism we see in American Christianity today is simply a reaction to the collective loss of our Western identity, the blame for which can be placed squarely on the shoulders of the secular [and Jewish] left.  Secular Americans typically respond to this loss by adopting an egalitarian cosmopolitan stance whereas Christians have responded to it by adopting a kind of Christian nationalism, which tries to fill the void left by their ethnic identity with religious affiliation and belief.  Restore to both sets of people their Western identity and I would expect both types of phenomena to recede within a generation.


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Posted by the Narrator... on Fri, 05 Nov 2010 05:34 | #

Take Psalm 22 for example. I believe that David was talking about, or even as a type of, Christ where you believe that N.T. authors somehow fabricated the stories about the guards casting lots for the clothing of Christ. I believe that it was kind of miraculous that King David described a method of execution that didn’t exist yet fairly accurately where you believe it was coincidence or later interpolation.

Posted by danielj on November 04, 2010, 01:03 PM |

But if we apply the legal notion of “reasonable doubt” then we would be confronted with the fact that it is unknown if David actually existed or was a mythological figure. And it is unknown when and who wrote the Psalms. (some appear to have been lifted from the Ugaritic Texts, other may have been written within a few centuries of Jesus’s time).
Crucifixion has been around for ages. And in fact Paul implies crucifixions were done in the time of Moses,

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
-Galations 3:13

That is a reference on Paul’s part to Deut. 21:23

22 If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole,
23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

So the method would have been know of at the time of David.
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So start adopting the more precise language of GW and blame the gene specifically. Christianity isn’t the problem, 80% of the White population is.

Posted by danielj on November 04, 2010, 01:03 PM |

That’s not quite what I said. You can see the Roman Political pragmatism of allowing non-Latin people to become Roman citizens in the Christian notion of ‘Christians of all tribes and races are “citizens of the Kingdom”’.

Paul is a good example of that. He was a foreigner, granted Roman Citizenship, who used his legal standing to subvert and harm the very Civilization that granted him his privileges.

It’s political cosmopolitanism married to the idea spiritual universalism.
As the Indians would say, Bad medicine.
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Regarding being born into sin, that is the doctrine of total depravity and it is in there. We are born into sin and I can quote much Scripture to that effect, hence the name, original sin or ancestral sin.

Posted by danielj on November 04, 2010, 01:03 PM

Being born into sin kind of kills the notion of freewill though.

Not to quibble, but they didn’t choose to go. They were starving and rode out the famine there.

Posted by danielj on November 04, 2010, 01:03 PM

They rode it our on the backs of the enslaved Egyptians.

If you interpret it spiritually, then God created the famine so that the hebrews would be thrown into the proverbial Lion’s Den so that God could then demonstrate his glory by pulling them back out of it.

I mean if he could rain manna on Moses he could do the same for Jacob.
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You think everybody in Roman Palestine was a descendant of David? I don’t know enough to argue against that assertion but I it sounds like an absurd assertion to me.

Posted by danielj on November 04, 2010, 01:03 PM

A small area, fairly homogeneous people and a 1,000 year space of time between David and Jesus. Oh yes, it’s likely that just about everybody in the Levant was a descendant of David (remember Solomon had 700 women, some foreign).
That’s what makes an ethnic group an ethnic group. They’re all related, distantly or not.

I did a family tree some years back and what you discover is that extensive family histories are actually diamond shaped, not tree shaped. In other words they expand outward only so far, then begin to go back towards a common direction, or area. They aren’t ever-expansive.


For example, if you are of Western European descent, then the odds are pretty good that you can account Charlemagne as a great-great-etc…...grandfather.

...


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Posted by danielj on Fri, 05 Nov 2010 14:14 | #

But if we apply the legal notion of “reasonable doubt” then we would be confronted with the fact that it is unknown if David actually existed or was a mythological figure. And it is unknown when and who wrote the Psalms. (some appear to have been lifted from the Ugaritic Texts, other may have been written within a few centuries of Jesus’s time).
Crucifixion has been around for ages.

Did you actually read the paper I wrote on Kinism or the presuppositional literature I’ve recommended you?

There is “reasonable doubt” when it comes to my presuppositions. I ground everything I believe on the Scripture. The only reason I even trust induction or some method like the “reasonable doubt” method of the legal system is because of the truth of the Scriptures.

Even if you haven’t or aren’t inclined to read it, it should be easily understandable by this point what I mean when I say that we have fundamentally different world-views with fundamentally different presuppositions and that I believe that any world-view, save the Christian one, cannot justify knowledge.

So the method would have been know of at the time of David.

So was it an exactly accurate prophecy about the death of Christ? Or is hanging on a pole and being nailed to a tree with extended arms, having none of your bones broken, having your clothing divided by lot, etc. a different method of execution entirely? Or, did the later writers make shit up to fit the Psalms and the Deutero account?

You’re missing the point here because you like to argue with me. For years we’ve done this and you still refuse to listen to me when I say that you have no coherent epistemology and therefore no grounds from which to accuse me.

That’s not quite what I said.

Here it is again with what I consider to be relevant in bold: As I said in this thread and other places, the “Christian spirit” is about 80% indigenous to European peoples. What I further assert though, is that that spirit is harmful and representative of the absolute worst aspects of the Greco-Roman heritage.


It’s inherited (in the blood), for certain. But then so is alcoholism.

Being born into sin kind of kills the notion of freewill though.

There is no such thing as “free will” in the modern sense of free. We aren’t completely at liberty and we don’t have libertarian free will. One more time I will recommend Jonathon Edward’s Freedom of the Will to you.

If one was able to do differently than one did then there is no ground for moral accountability. We are only culpable for our actions because we could do no differently and because it is impossible for a counter-factual state to obtain.

They rode it our on the backs of the enslaved Egyptians.

And then they got enslaved for a much longer time period.

Are you Egyptian or something? Are you questioning my bona fides with regard to jew hatred? Why do you care about something that happened like three thousand years ago?

I mean if he could rain manna on Moses he could do the same for Jacob.

The giving of the Law and the giving of the Law is another Law/Gospel paradigm. The Bread from Heaven is a picture of the gospel, and more literally, Christ.

That’s what makes an ethnic group an ethnic group. They’re all related, distantly or not.

Check it. I’ll grant your point. That doesn’t change the fact that Christ had to be a descendant of David, rather than say, a descendant of Boudica.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:00 | #

So was it an exactly accurate prophecy about the death of Christ? Or is hanging on a pole and being nailed to a tree with extended arms, having none of your bones broken, having your clothing divided by lot, etc. a different method of execution entirely? Or, did the later writers make shit up to fit the Psalms and the Deutero account?

What is the implication of an “exactly accurate prophecy” if we grant that the less likely of the explanations was the case?

And why has a prohecy any implication and what is the “justification” for any such deduction?


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Posted by danielj on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 00:48 | #

There is “reasonable doubt” when it comes to my presuppositions.

Should read “There is no “reasonable doubt”“


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Posted by danielj on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 03:47 | #

What is the implication of an “exactly accurate prophecy” if we grant that the less likely of the explanations was the case?

It is only less likely under your epistemological metric.

The implication, however, is foreknowledge.

And why has a prohecy any implication and what is the “justification” for any such deduction?

Prophecy necessarily implies foreknowledge. Formally, if prophecy, then foreknowledge.

The implication of all this being that God has revealed Himself.


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Posted by the Narrator... on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 06:54 | #

Did you actually read the paper I wrote on Kinism or the presuppositional literature I’ve recommended you?

Posted by danielj on November 05, 2010, 01:14 PM |

Yep. As I’ve said before, much of it is not new as I was a believer up until my mid twenties. Got a whole box full of bible studies, essays I wrote, Edwards ‘Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God’, some stuff by “brother Pink”, Gail Riplinger and even some old Carmen and Amy Grant tapes. (I still think The Champion is a good song, but tell anybody)

Presuppositionalism is a fine argument. But if the bible has serious fundamental flaws (which I believe it does) then the Presup argument falls flat on its face.

One such point is the one I re-posted earlier, which is, if UNFALLEN Man (Adam) was, as God declares, Alone,
what then was point of Jesus’s death?
Because, as you know, the entire premise the New Testament writers propound upon is the idea that Christ’s death reconciled man to God so that we could have a personal relationship with him that will reach its apex in paradise where there will be “neither marrying nor giving in marriage” as believers will have a groom/bride relationship with their maker.
We will be then as Adam was in the garden of eden.
Yet that sin-free unfallen Man, who walked and talked with his maker, was declared by God to be alone.
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So was it an exactly accurate prophecy about the death of Christ?

Posted by danielj on November 05, 2010, 01:14 PM |

If you follow the narrative the authors of the Gospels set up, sure. But we don’t actually know the details of how and when he died. And we never will. As you put it, “Or, did the later writers make shit up to fit the Psalms and the Deutero account? “
Most likely.
Thus doubt as to the validity of the account is justified.
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You’re missing the point here because you like to argue with me. For years we’ve done this and you still refuse to listen to me when I say that you have no coherent epistemology and therefore no grounds from which to accuse me.
Posted by danielj on November 05, 2010, 01:14 PM

Well I can’t argue with anyone else as I’m pretty much alone in my views amongst my family. There are two “preachers” (I use the term lightly) in my family but we’re not allowed to broach the subject of religion/atheism at get togethers lest we here the “Ahh God there they go again!” cries as the room clears out.

Seriously, we argue this because it keeps coming up. And most likely will continue to come up again and again.
I see, in my own personal experience, how the faith effects people. I have cousins who do missionary/charity work with their church in Africa and other places.
I don’t speak or go about them anymore for that reason, and were I king for a day I’d have them thrown to the lions.

As for my epistemology, I’ve discovered what you will at some point, which is that knowledge and truth are not always synonymous and in many cases incompatible.
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And then they got enslaved for a much longer time period.

Are you Egyptian or something? Are you questioning my bona fides with regard to jew hatred? Why do you care about something that happened like three thousand years ago?

Posted by danielj on November 05, 2010, 01:14 PM

AS I said, the story itself is a myth. It never happened. It’s the narrative I was critiquing. And it represents a worldview held by those who wrote the text.
You might have noticed that what happened to the Egyptians in that story is pretty much what is happening to us in America right now.
You brought up the idea that the hebrews “escape” from Egypt represented Christians escape from bondage, yet you never quite addressed where the Egyptians fit into that picture. If Moses is Christ, Pharaoh is the Devil and the hebrews Christians, what then were the Egyptians in that analogy?
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The giving of the Law and the giving of the Law is another Law/Gospel paradigm. The Bread from Heaven is a picture of the gospel, and more literally, Christ.

Posted by danielj on November 05, 2010, 01:14 PM

That doesn’t really address my point. Why didn’t God tell Jacob about the coming 7/7 so he could prepare?
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That doesn’t change the fact that Christ had to be a descendant of David, rather than say, a descendant of Boudica.
Posted by danielj on November 05, 2010, 01:14 PM

Which in itself seems odd as God only granted their request for a king after their repeated asking and against his own judgment and initial denial.


...


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Posted by danielj on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 14:31 | #

Well I can’t argue with anyone else as I’m pretty much alone in my views amongst my family.

Most of us are. Thankfully, my wife and I agree.

There are two “preachers” (I use the term lightly) in my family but we’re not allowed to broach the subject of religion/atheism at get togethers lest we here the “Ahh God there they go again!” cries as the room clears out.

My family is “Christian” and I’m not allowed to broach the subject either.

I see, in my own personal experience, how the faith effects people. I have cousins who do missionary/charity work with their church in Africa and other places.

Anecdote time. My mother’s church is pastored by a Scot. He was a millionaire who moved over, took a job as the assistant pastor at there church, decided never to go back to running his businesses and eventually took over the church.

It is a non-denominational church and I find myself in the ironic situation of defending Reformed Presbyterianism to a Scot!

Long story short, they were going to adopt some little niglet from Africa and my mother initially agreed that it was a horrible idea and even let me talk race and politics for a little while at the house. Now that the little nigger has been there for a while, all resistance has broken down. Between that and my sister marrying a beaner, I’ve told here I won’t come over anymore because I just can’t see it.

I don’t speak or go about them anymore for that reason, and were I king for a day I’d have them thrown to the lions.

You’re going to have to throw me and 80% of us in the same pit!

As for my epistemology, I’ve discovered what you will at some point, which is that knowledge and truth are not always synonymous and in many cases incompatible.

That is a line from The Departed. wink


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Posted by danielj on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 14:32 | #

</i>end italics</i>


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Posted by danielj on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 14:33 | #

I’ve realized that is unclear.

It was the pastor and his wife that adopted the African and not my mother.


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Posted by danielj on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 16:10 | #

Yep. As I’ve said before, much of it is not new as I was a believer up until my mid twenties. Got a whole box full of bible studies, essays I wrote, Edwards ‘Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God’, some stuff by “brother Pink”, Gail Riplinger and even some old Carmen and Amy Grant tapes.

Pink was a Baptist so I stay away from him despite his (half) espousal of Calvinism.

I think Amy Grant made off with her producer.

Presuppositionalism is a fine argument. But if the bible has serious fundamental flaws (which I believe it does) then the Presup argument falls flat on its face.

This statement proves you don’t understand presuppositionalism. Don’t take that the wrong way either since I’m not accusing you of being unintelligent. I am saying that it hasn’t really sunk into your skull.

We are presupposing the Bible as the revealed word of the Lord, without error and inspired. It is the standard. You have some sort of inductive standard, which as I’ve stated, is a type of standard that Van Til and Bahnsen make mincemeat of since it is incoherent.

Because, as you know, the entire premise the New Testament writers propound upon is the idea that Christ’s death reconciled man to God so that we could have a personal relationship with him that will reach its apex in paradise where there will be “neither marrying nor giving in marriage” as believers will have a groom/bride relationship with their maker.
We will be then as Adam was in the garden of eden.
Yet that sin-free unfallen Man, who walked and talked with his maker, was declared by God to be alone.

Just reread what you’ve wrote here and think about it for a little while. I know you think you’ve stumbled upon some profound logical contradiction, but you haven’t.

If you want one that really plagues me, here it is: If Jesus was cursed (hung upon a tree) and took upon our sin, how is that He could have been in communion with the other two parts of the trinity at that moment or moments? God cannot abide sin? Does this mean that the trinity was divided at the time of the cross (hence the: My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me?)?

If you follow the narrative the authors of the Gospels set up, sure. But we don’t actually know the details of how and when he died. And we never will.

We don’t know by your standard.


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Posted by danielj on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 16:13 | #

You brought up the idea that the hebrews “escape” from Egypt represented Christians escape from bondage, yet you never quite addressed where the Egyptians fit into that picture. If Moses is Christ, Pharaoh is the Devil and the hebrews Christians, what then were the Egyptians in that analogy?

The Egyptian commoner represents fallen and unsaved (or unelect) man.

That doesn’t really address my point. Why didn’t God tell Jacob about the coming 7/7 so he could prepare?

Again, think about what you’ve wrote here.

The whole point of the story is Joseph as a Christ figure preparing the way through the famine and through Egypt. The whole story is about God’s provision for the house of Jacob.

Which in itself seems odd as God only granted their request for a king after their repeated asking and against his own judgment and initial denial.

Everything God does seems “odd” to me from my vantage point but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true or righteous.

Repent of your autonomy and be saved.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 16:23 | #

“What is the implication of an “exactly accurate prophecy” if we grant that the less likely of the explanations was the case?”

It is only less likely under your epistemological metric.

That raises the question of whose metric is correct, amidst your implicit assumption that epistemology is a mere matter of taste.

Do you want to to argue epistemology - or save yourself the trouble and concede the point?

The implication, however, is foreknowledge.

Already you are involved in an epistemological mistake, a tautology, since we have already granted “foreknowledge” - the question is as to whether this foreknowledge has any implication beyond a mere datum (a vision/picture of a routine future event).

“And why has a prohecy any implication and what is the “justification” for any such deduction?”

Prophecy necessarily implies foreknowledge. Formally, if prophecy, then foreknowledge.

Same mistake.

The implication of all this being that God has revealed Himself.

That follows neither logically nor empirically nor meaningfully.

[Battle for the Mind, to which GW has been directed for assistance, explains how the stress-converted and convicted mind delusionally regards nonsense as profound wisdom.]


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Posted by danielj on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 20:24 | #

That raises the question of whose metric is correct, amidst your implicit assumption that epistemology is a mere matter of taste.

It does indeed raise the question and I don’t assume it is a matter of taste. I assume that my metric justifies knowledge.

Do you want to to argue epistemology - or save yourself the trouble and concede the point?

I don’t want to argue anything with you and I’m not conceding anything to you ever. I may come to an agreement with you about something.

Already you are involved in an epistemological mistake, a tautology, since we have already granted “foreknowledge” - the question is as to whether this foreknowledge has any implication beyond a mere datum (a vision/picture of a routine future event).

We didn’t grant it.

Perhaps we should distinguish between a “one-off” and prophecy proper, which, incidentally, is what I was getting at. God’s foreknowledge springing from his omnipotence which orders and ordains all things. His foreknowledge is qualitatively different from predicting a horse race.


Same mistake.

All I generally hear from you is: “Blah, blah blah blah blah.” Charlie Brown styles. You’re in a whole different league brother. Argue with Bowery or GW.

That follows neither logically nor empirically nor meaningfully.

Ok sure.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 21:42 | #

“That raises the question of whose metric is correct, amidst your implicit assumption that epistemology is a mere matter of taste.”

It does indeed raise the question and I don’t assume it is a matter of taste. I assume that my metric justifies knowledge.

To “assume” justification is oxymoronic and self-contradictory.  Just more nonsense.

“Already you are involved in an epistemological mistake, a tautology, since we have already granted “foreknowledge” - the question is as to whether this foreknowledge has any implication beyond a mere datum (a vision/picture of a routine future event).”

We didn’t grant it.

Yes we did - to wit:

[Dj:] So was it an exactly accurate prophecy about the death of Christ? ... Or, did the later writers make shit up to fit the Psalms and the Deutero account?

[NN:] What is the implication of an “exactly accurate prophecy” if we grant that the less likely of the explanations was the case?

Perhaps we should distinguish between a “one-off” and prophecy proper, which, incidentally, is what I was getting at. God’s foreknowledge springing from his omnipotence which orders and ordains all things. His foreknowledge is qualitatively different from predicting a horse race.

We are granting you, for the sake of discussion, that which you specified, as quoted - a “prophecy proper” and not a “prediction” - and continue to ask for the meaningful implications.

“Same mistake.”

All I generally hear from you is: “Blah, blah blah blah blah.” Charlie Brown styles. You’re in a whole different league brother. Argue with Bowery or GW.

Have already done so.  What do you believe privileges the intellectual sandbox such that it need not meet the standards of the adult arena?

“That follows neither logically nor empirically nor meaningfully.”

Ok sure.

You dismiss an important lesson in intellectual maturity.

Your present procedure can be likened to that of the primitive who sees a photograph of himself for the first time and imagines that his “soul” has thus been captured.  For an accurate prophecy, no matter how remarkable, likewise has not the implications that the child mind cartoonishly projects upon a seemingly miraculous phenomenon.  Rather it is the case that non-locality and non-temporality are not demonstrable as other than impersonal phenomena (i.e., there are no disembodied spirits involved to account for the lack of familiar physical agency) - just as the photograph, imaginatively misunderstood by the primitive, is nothing but instrumental chemistry.


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Posted by danielj on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 22:20 | #

To “assume” justification is oxymoronic and self-contradictory.  Just more nonsense.

You have to at some point. All ultimate truth claims are circular and assumptive in exactly this way.

We are granting you, for the sake of discussion, that which you specified, as quoted - a “prophecy proper” and not a “prediction” - and continue to ask for the meaningful implications.

Ok.

Have already done so.  What do you believe privileges the intellectual sandbox such that it need not meet the standards of the adult arena?

I don’t qualify for your arena.

I have no idea what you are babbling about. This isn’t to say you don’t make sense, but to say that I don’t understand you. You are riddle wrapped around an enigma.

You dismiss an important lesson in intellectual maturity.

I prefer my blissfully ignorant and youthful radiance.

Your present procedure can be likened to that of the primitive who sees a photograph of himself for the first time and imagines that his “soul” has thus been captured.  For an accurate prophecy, no matter how remarkable, likewise has not the implications that the child mind cartoonishly projects upon a seemingly miraculous phenomenon.  Rather it is the case that non-locality and non-temporality are not demonstrable as other than impersonal phenomena (i.e., there are no disembodied spirits involved to account for the lack of familiar physical agency) - just as the photograph, imaginatively misunderstood by the primitive, is nothing but instrumental chemistry.

Blah blah blah blah, wah wah wah wah wah….

I can’t gain anything from engaging with you so I would kindly ask that you refrain.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 22:56 | #

All I generally hear from you is: “Blah, blah blah blah blah.” Charlie Brown styles. You’re in a whole different league brother. Argue with Bowery or GW.

The key to understanding what Neo, GW, and Bowery are getting at is to always keep in mind what are their desired end-goals for the state of society.  Neo wishes to see the enthronement of a caste of masters, men fit for mastery and hence capable of mastering, over a Master Race which will itself be molded in the image of its masters insofar as this is possible and likewise reign over the rest of humanity as master(s).  GW wants to replace liberalism as the nearly all encompassing world view of the West with a “philosophy” that will yield heightened racial awareness as those who are inculcated in it will gain sharpened epistemological incite by dint of the thrust of those investigative efforts being grounded in a realization that the ability to engage in said is rooted in what we are genetically/materially - setting the mind in motion in a search for truth in this vein will thus increase racial consciousness as increased racial consciousness will increase the search for truth in this vein.  A virtuous circle of expanding intellectualism-racialism.  The “moral” content of his “philosophy” is just his English conservatism.  He says he’s given up being a conservative, that’s bullshit.  Bowery desires to create a system that emphasizes individual masculine sovereignty, the leitmotif and main organizing principle of which is single deadly combat, thus hoping to achieve the (eugenic) effect of enhancing what we are, an individualistic and creative race which will kill (even each other) for reproductive success and resource acquisition.  The state of nature which made us as we are is to be recapitulated so that we remain what we are, only with improvements in the same vein.  On these individualistic and brutal terms, smart and strong individuals will come to predominate in future populations as they will be the ones to most successfully pass along their genes - the genes of the less smart and strong having been choked off in the bottleneck of enforced single deadly combat.  The smart and strong will presumably be motivated to enforce single deadly combat on the rest as it is in their self-interest to do it as they excel at it and will hence reap the rewards.  (Why killing effectively necessarily, or indeed usually does, entail much brains is left unanswered by Bowery.  A potential dysgenic impact on the group mean intellect?  Master in the context of collectivism, on the other hand…)


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Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 23:01 | #

That should read: “Master[y] in the context of collectivism,”


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Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 23:17 | #

What are you talking about?

Getting in touch with my “British quarter”.  Exploring different perspectives, flexing my verbal IQ, playing shit-house psychologist.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 23:31 | #

To “assume” justification is oxymoronic and self-contradictory.  Just more nonsense.

You have to at some point. All ultimate truth claims are circular and assumptive in exactly this way.

Thus all “ultimate truth” is meaningless nonsense and has no currency other than amongst the likewise converted and convicted.  Which means that you can effectively preach to none but the choir.  And you do not “have to at some point”.  That is merely an increasingly popular and self-indulgent rationalization of irrationality, impenetrability, and invulnerability, refuted by reference to the universality of the applicability of empirical principles and the singularity of the same.  Unless, of course, you are a rigorous solipcist and likely housed in a mental institution.

“We are granting you, for the sake of discussion, that which you specified, as quoted - a “prophecy proper” and not a “prediction” - and continue to ask for the meaningful implications.”

Ok.

“Ok” as in will do - or “ok” as in “whatever”? 

“Have already done so.  What do you believe privileges the intellectual sandbox such that it need not meet the standards of the adult arena?”

I don’t qualify for your arena.

Then you are an impostor.  Would you not prefer to “qualify”?

I have no idea what you are babbling about. This isn’t to say you don’t make sense, but to say that I don’t understand you. You are riddle wrapped around an enigma.

The Library has lots of books on epistemology.  Dig in like I did.

“You dismiss an important lesson in intellectual maturity.”

I prefer my blissfully ignorant and youthful radiance.

Which might be cultivated in a more appreciative venue.

“Your present procedure can be likened to that of the primitive who sees a photograph of himself for the first time and imagines that his “soul” has thus been captured.  For an accurate prophecy, no matter how remarkable, likewise has not the implications that the child mind cartoonishly projects upon a seemingly miraculous phenomenon.  Rather it is the case that non-locality and non-temporality are not demonstrable as other than impersonal phenomena (i.e., there are no disembodied spirits involved to account for the lack of familiar physical agency) - just as the photograph, imaginatively misunderstood by the primitive, is nothing but instrumental chemistry.”

Blah blah blah blah, wah wah wah wah wah….

I can’t gain anything from engaging with you so I would kindly ask that you refrain.

Perhaps others who are witness are not likewise ineducable.


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Posted by danielj on Sat, 06 Nov 2010 23:45 | #

  And you do not “have to at some point”.

Yes you do. You start laying out your epistemology, or point to some place it is laid out, and I can guarantee you’ve done so.

“Ok” as in will do - or “ok” as in “whatever”?

As in whatever.

The Library has lots of books on epistemology.  Dig in like I did.

I’ll dig in in whatever way I see fit.

Which might be cultivated in a more appreciative venue.

I’d hate to be perceived as democratic, but let us take a vote on who is the interloper here and whose contributions are appreciated more.

Perhaps others who are witness are not likewise ineducable.

I meant only that you and I are destined for unfruitful dialog.

I’ve defended you in other venues. I’m not saying you have nothing of value to offer, but rather, that I don’t want to discuss anything with you.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 01:00 | #

You start laying out your epistemology, or point to some place it is laid out, and I can guarantee you’ve done so.

Accordingly to whose analysis?

Let us grant you the following as the most sophisticated apology for your position:

==============================

Constructionism

Constructionism is the idea that reality is a product of social interaction. It is not objectively given but needs to be constructed by the observers. Similar viewpoints can be found throughout the history of philosophy from the ancient sceptics over all sorts of solipsists and religious thinkers to modern day phenomenology. Constructionist positions in general are attractive to those thinkers who explore the limits of positivism or realism.

One fundamental question that positivism cannot answer is how it is possible that we can perceive the world at all given that our sensory equipment is fundamentally different from the object of perception. How can we know what we know about the supposedly objective world? The answer that constructionists give is that knowledge about the world is possible because we create the world in perceiving it. This is what Kant (1995, B XVII) suggested in his Copernican turn. Another problem of positivism is that it appears to be circular. If one wants to say something about the world then one must observe it first. The difficulty is that one can never observe the world as it is but only the model that our consciousness produces from our perceptions.

==============================

Is this the allegation as to circularity upon which you would like to rely?


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Posted by danielj on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 01:08 | #

Accordingly to whose analysis?

So now it is a matter of taste is it?

Let us grant you the following as the most sophisticated apology for your position:

That isn’t it. The most sophisticated apology is to be found in the works of Bahnsen and Van Til. They are pretty well summed up in this work: Van Til’s Apologetic

Is this the allegation as to circularity upon which you would like to rely?

No. I don’t know your epistemology so I can’t tell you how it is circular. I can only tell you that I can guarantee you it is.

Regardless, I don’t even want to debate you! I told you I did not already. I prefer to just read you and observe you from a distance. I have very little desire to engage you directly.

I don’t understand what you ramble on about, at great length, Charlie Brown style and I don’t have the required time to invest to be able to understand you due to my job, my family and my school.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 01:21 | #

I’d hate to be perceived as democratic, but let us take a vote on who is the interloper here and whose contributions are appreciated more.

No need - I make no claim as to my appeal as do you:

I prefer [to an important lesson in intellectual maturity] my blissfully ignorant and youthful radiance.


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Posted by danielj on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 01:33 | #

No need - I make no claim as to my appeal as do you

Once a gadfly, never a friend…. smile

At least you out-ubermensch your handle and have concern for your popularity. It is comical to read his tortured concern for his reception.

I, on the other hand, consider popularity to be the most important pursuit a man can undertake.

I’m trying to politely tell you, you are far too advanced to waste your time on me and you are just too stupid to get it.


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Posted by danielj on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 01:33 | #

have concern for your popularity

Forgive me! Have no concern…


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 01:36 | #

“Accordingly to whose analysis?”

So now it is a matter of taste is it?

No, it is a question of what amongst a great deal of material needs to be adduced and addressed, specifically.

“Let us grant you the following as the most sophisticated apology for your position:”

That isn’t it. The most sophisticated apology is to be found in the works of Bahnsen and Van Til. They are pretty well summed up in this work: Van Til’s Apologetic

Then will you affirm the following as a representative summary of the basis of your “guarantee”?:

...the theistic transcendental argument: Christianity is true because it alone accounts for the preconditions of intelligibility. To illustrate, suppose an atheist comes to town and preaches that Christianity is irrational. After common grace communion with ginger ale and ginger snaps, Van Til would ask the atheist to account for the standards of rationality on the basis of the atheist’s own view of reality. The atheist, though he would not like to say it this way, must say that his legislative rational standards come from an utterly irrational (chasmos) universe. If the atheist is correct about reality, rationality came from total irrationality by the predestination of blind chance. Now the atheist seeks to use what an irrational universe miscarried (“reason”), as the Judge of what can be in reality. Van Til thus teaches us that all forms of anti-Christianity fail to account for the very pre-conditions of reasonable interchange. Perhaps even more importantly, he teaches us that we know this by grace alone.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 01:49 | #

“No need - I make no claim as to my appeal as do you”

Once a gadfly, never a friend…. smile

At least you out-ubermensch your handle and have [no] concern for your popularity. It is comical to read his tortured concern for his reception.

I, on the other hand, consider popularity to be the most important pursuit a man can undertake.

I’m trying to politely tell you, you are far too advanced to waste your time on me and you are just too stupid to get it.

I understand perfectly.

Rather, you fail to appreciate your present contribution in your capacity (among others) as a foil for the instruction of those in attendance around the globe.  Your world-wide popularity is being enhanced at this very moment.

Rejoice!


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Posted by danielj on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 01:50 | #

Then will you affirm the following as a representative summary of the basis of your “guarantee”?:

I already affirmed that the book is a summary.

I will not affirm that that passage is an adequate summary.


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Posted by danielj on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 01:51 | #

Rather, you fail to appreciate your present contribution in your capacity (among others) as a foil for the instruction of those in attendance around the globe.  Your world-wide popularity is being enhanced at this very moment.

You fail to appreciate the obscurity of this arena.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 02:21 | #

I will not affirm that that passage is an adequate summary.

Can you affirm that it has been altogether disowned by either author?

[It’s an irredeemable misconception of the issue.]

I have to persist in, and insist upon, pursuit of the basis of your “guarantee” - since to produce and reproduce an epistemological magnus opus that anticipates all objections is, by several orders of magnitude, not the economical approach to the resolution of this challenge.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 02:28 | #

You fail to appreciate the obscurity of this arena.

And I evidently fail to appreciate your superordinate appetite for popularity.


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Posted by danielj on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 02:29 | #

I have to persist in, and insist upon, pursuit of the basis of your “guarantee” - since to produce and reproduce an epistemological magnus opus that anticipates all objections is, by several orders of magnitude, not the economical approach to the resolution of this challenge.

Of course you do. You can’t just let it go. Why you feel the need to engage me despite my pleading to be left alone, I’ll never know.

Just point me to the thinkers that you think tackle the subject properly and I’ll engage them on my own in my studies.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 03:11 | #

Of course you do. You can’t just let it go. Why you feel the need to engage me despite my pleading to be left alone, I’ll never know.

You persist in a “guarantee” that any nominally scientific epistemology can be shown to be “circular”.

That is an extraordinary boast that demands justification.

Just point me to the thinkers that you think tackle the subject properly and I’ll engage them on my own in my studies.

“Thinkers” do not waste their time systematically tackling obvious imbecilities that involve misconstruction/confusion of terms as employed by the “Contructionists” with “circular” and Van Til with “randomness” and “chaos” and “irrationality”.


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Posted by danielj on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 03:33 | #

That is an extraordinary boast that demands justification.

Read the book yourself. It is around 800 pages if memory serves. I don’t have the time or the inclination to argue the nitty-gritty with you.


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Posted by the Narrator... on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 07:58 | #

That is a line from The Departed.

Posted by danielj on November 06, 2010, 01:31 PM |

Ha. Never seen it. I googled the sentence and couldn’t find the connection. But I’ll take your word for it.
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We are presupposing the Bible as the revealed word of the Lord, without error and inspired.

Posted by danielj on November 06, 2010, 01:31 PM |

Yeah, I know what it is. It’s the belief that all knowledge must conform the Bible’s facts, even if its facts are wrong.

You could probably do the same thing with Tolkien’s mythology.
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Just reread what you’ve wrote here and think about it for a little while. I know you think you’ve stumbled upon some profound logical contradiction, but you haven’t.

Posted by danielj on November 06, 2010, 01:31 PM

Stumbled? Now that’s low.

Seriously, let me put it another way…...

Just answer me this,

How was Adam alone?

Or, if you prefer, if Adam would have remained the lone human in all of creation and would have never partaken of the forbidden fruit, would he still need redemption?
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If you want one that really plagues me, here it is: If Jesus was cursed (hung upon a tree) and took upon our sin, how is that He could have been in communion with the other two parts of the trinity at that moment or moments? God cannot abide sin? Does this mean that the trinity was divided at the time of the cross (hence the: My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me?)?

Posted by danielj on November 06, 2010, 01:31 PM

Is that trick question? I mean, Psalms 22 and what not….
There is always modalism to answer your question, I guess.

Then again,

1 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
1st Corinthians 12

So many things wrong with that passage I’m not even going to get into it.
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The Egyptian commoner represents fallen and unsaved (or unelect) man.

Posted by danielj on November 06, 2010, 01:31 PM

But they sold themselves to Joseph/Jesus?
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The whole point of the story is Joseph as a Christ figure

Posted by danielj on November 06, 2010, 01:31 PM

BUT- HE -WAS -EVIL! Even by biblical standards.

The out come of the famine was artificially engineered by Joseph for the effect of starving and enslaving an entire populace.
The ONLY people who benefited were foreigners (hebrew and otherwise) who fed off of the labor of others.

If Joseph was a Christ figure, then so was Stalin!
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Everything God does seems “odd” to me from my vantage point but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true or righteous.

Posted by danielj on November 06, 2010, 01:31 PM

Makes you wonder why he inspired the book though, doesn’t it?

It’s like handing out a French biography of Hegel at a Tractor Pull in Kentucky.

...


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 14:46 | #

Daniel,

Read the book yourself. It is around 800 pages if memory serves.

It is evident that such would be an elaborate waste of time, since you do not - and presumably cannot - affirm that the summary that I took the trouble to locate for you has been disavowed in toto (for its irredeemable and ludicrous defects) and replaced with a credible reversal that yet provides a case for “circularity”.

I don’t have the time or the inclination to argue the nitty-gritty with you.

I think it appropriate to give a venue such as this no less than first-priority attention and devotion to understanding an issue before presuming to address it before a global audience.  If you are otherwise ordered in your life as a Hausmann, best leave the arena to the Kreiger, eh?.  Since the numbers of us are small, as you note, our emphasis must thus be upon the quality of what is written here.

And, since the numbers are small, and presumably one intends to be persuasive, one must deal in the common coin of logic and evidence - not in ineffable conviction and conversion to nonsense such as is the orientation of GW and yourself to none but a “choir” of the faithful - who presently are not of sufficient number.

If you wish to increase your number by other than logic and evidence, the on-coming and irresistible faith of the day, as in ancient Rome falling to the degenerate Christian rabble, is the contemporary version of slave morality adopted by the Left: Liberal Socialist Egalitarian Utopianism, domestically, and Crypto-Anarchist Marxist-Leninist Communism, internationally.  Even racism motivated by ressentiment, as noted by Nietzsche, is an underclass orientation that does not provide for, and indeed resists (a’la GW et al.), filling the void in mastery that would follow upon the displacement of Jewry in that capacity.


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Posted by danielj on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 15:35 | #

Yeah, I know what it is. It’s the belief that all knowledge must conform the Bible’s facts, even if its facts are wrong.

You could probably do the same thing with Tolkien’s mythology.

It does and no you could not.

How was Adam alone?

He didn’t have Eve.

Or, if you prefer, if Adam would have remained the lone human in all of creation and would have never partaken of the forbidden fruit, would he still need redemption?

I don’t do counterfactuals.

The out come of the famine was artificially engineered by Joseph for the effect of starving and enslaving an entire populace.

I don’t read the story that way.

The ONLY people who benefited were foreigners (hebrew and otherwise) who fed off of the labor of others.

Yes because the Hebrews are representative of the elect who are under God’s care.

They also engaged in some ethnic cleansing at God’s command. I don’t really see what the big deal is. I’m not sure why you care about the damn Egyptians so much. It is they way God chose to operate.


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Posted by danielj on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 15:47 | #

It is evident that such would be an elaborate waste of time, since you do not - and presumably cannot - affirm that the summary that I took the trouble to locate for you has been disavowed in toto (for its irredeemable and ludicrous defects) and replaced with a credible reversal that yet provides a case for “circularity”.

Then stop wasting your time. I’d really prefer that you do.

I think it appropriate to give a venue such as this no less than first-priority attention and devotion to understanding an issue before presuming to address it before a global audience.

I don’t care what you think.

If you are otherwise ordered in your life as a Hausmann, best leave the arena to the Kreiger, eh?.  Since the numbers of us are small, as you note, our emphasis must thus be upon the quality of what is written here.

This isn’t an arena. It is just a nothing little form that you ascribe cosmic significance to, the same cosmic significance you ascribe to “dominance” and your pathetic little life that doesn’t mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things.

The level of quality here suits me just fine.

And, since the numbers are small, and presumably one intends to be persuasive, one must deal in the common coin of logic and evidence - not in ineffable conviction and conversion to nonsense such as is the orientation of GW and yourself to none but a “choir” of the faithful - who presently are not of sufficient number.

Then go away. We don’t need you. Go shoot some more skeet.

If you wish to increase your number by other than logic and evidence, the on-coming and irresistible faith of the day, as in ancient Rome falling to the degenerate Christian rabble, is the contemporary version of slave morality adopted by the Left: Liberal Socialist Egalitarian Utopianism, domestically, and Crypto-Anarchist Marxist-Leninist Communism, internationally.

I’m not even sure if this is a complete sentence but I’ll say in return that the people didn’t overthrow the French government whilst whistling the Lacrimosa but singing La Marseillaise.

Even racism motivated by ressentiment, as noted by Nietzsche, is an underclass orientation that does not provide for, and indeed resists (a’la GW et al.), filling the void in mastery that would follow upon the displacement of Jewry in that capacity.

I am underclass white trash and I don’t intend on changing. I’ve achieved my towering heights with my wife and family, my mastery of melodic post-hardcore music, basic familiarity with algebra II and my eventual B.A. in philosophy.

You’re like a beat dog aren’t you? Is that what dominance is? Did your father not pay attention to you? Did your mother not touch you enough? You’re like a human being, only really fucking weird. Do you walk around talking like you do here in everyday life? It is disturbing.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 16:54 | #

“It is evident that such would be an elaborate waste of time, since you do not - and presumably cannot - affirm that the summary that I took the trouble to locate for you has been disavowed in toto (for its irredeemable and ludicrous defects) and replaced with a credible reversal that yet provides a case for ‘circularity’.”

Then stop wasting your time. I’d really prefer that you do.

Then withdraw your claim.

“I think it appropriate to give a venue such as this no less than first-priority attention and devotion to understanding an issue before presuming to address it before a global audience.”

I don’t care what you think.

Of course you do.

“If you are otherwise ordered in your life as a Hausmann, best leave the arena to the Kreiger, eh?.  Since the numbers of us are small, as you note, our emphasis must thus be upon the quality of what is written here.”

This isn’t an arena. It is just a nothing little forum that you ascribe cosmic significance to, the same cosmic significance you ascribe to “dominance” and your pathetic little life that doesn’t mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things.

It is very much an arena - that now elicits the familiar resort therein to terminal remarks ad hominem by the party exhausted of reasonable responses.

“And, since the numbers are small, and presumably one intends to be persuasive, one must deal in the common coin of logic and evidence - not in ineffable conviction and conversion to nonsense such as is the orientation of GW and yourself to none but a “choir” of the faithful - who presently are not of sufficient number.”

Then go away. We don’t need you. Go shoot some more skeet.

“We”?

“If you wish to increase your number by other than logic and evidence, the on-coming and irresistible faith of the day, as in ancient Rome falling to the degenerate Christian rabble, is the contemporary version of slave morality adopted by the Left: Liberal Socialist Egalitarian Utopianism, domestically, and Crypto-Anarchist Marxist-Leninist Communism, internationally.”

I’m not even sure if this is a complete sentence but I’ll say in return that the people didn’t overthrow the French government whilst whistling the Lacrimosa but singing La Marseillaise.

On the way down to a self-consumptive radical Jacobin regime and the guillotine.  One would hope thus for a redemptive Napoleonic imperium and the consequent suppression of “the people” as a revolutionary force.  Unfortunately, this latter development is a false hope in the present context, since there are none but your lower element, full of antithetical convictions, waiting in the wings - absent an influential and courageous element (once again amongst the military) subject to suasion by reason.

“Even racism motivated by ressentiment, as noted by Nietzsche, is an underclass orientation that does not provide for, and indeed resists (a’la GW et al.), filling the void in mastery that would follow upon the displacement of Jewry in that capacity.”

I am underclass white trash and I don’t intend on changing. I’ve achieved my towering heights with my wife and family, my mastery of melodic post-hardcore music, basic familiarity with algebra II and my eventual B.A. in philosophy.

This is insufficient credential for making, and expecting acceptance of, extraordinary claims unsupported by valid argument - hence my persistence to match your own regarding your allegation.

You’re like a beat dog aren’t you? Is that what dominance is? Did your father not pay attention to you? Did your mother not touch you enough? You’re like a human being, only really fucking weird. Do you walk around talking like you do here in everyday life? It is disturbing.

Let me charitably suggest, Daniel, that you leave this sort of misinformed analysis to PF, who specializes in this genre of self-exposure - and who thus is more polished in its presentation for examination.


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Posted by danielj on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 17:43 | #

Then withdraw your claim.

Nope.

Of course you do.

No I don’t.

It is very much an arena - that now elicits the familiar resort therein to terminal remarks ad hominem by the party exhausted of reasonable responses.

You’re socially retarded.

On the way down to a self-consumptive radical Jacobin regime and the guillotine.  One would hope thus for a redemptive Napoleonic imperium and the consequent suppression of “the people” as a revolutionary force.  Unfortunately, this latter development is a false hope in the present context, since there are none but your lower element, full of antithetical convictions, waiting in the wings - absent an influential and courageous element (once again amongst the military) subject to suasion by reason.

I’ve been in the military.

Your hopes are misplaced.

You’ve bored me to the point of exhaustion. I can’t go on.


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Posted by Gudmund on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 18:43 | #

Why do people impute bizarre/twisted Freudian motives to NeoNietzsche because of his political views?  It’s Jewy, and I don’t like to use that term but in this case there is no better description of such a tendency.  He advocates aristocratic rule, hardly an outlandish position - in fact, prior to the Age of Reason (and The Mob), it was not even an “ideological position” but the accepted order of things.  Judging by how far we’ve fallen since that time, maybe there’s something to what NN is saying after all?


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Posted by Sam Davidson on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 18:58 | #

I’ve been in the military.

Your hopes are misplaced.

Depressing, wasn’t it?


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Posted by Guessedworker on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:58 | #

prior to the Age of Reason (and The Mob), it was not even an “ideological position” but the accepted order of things.

No, it wasn’t.  Not in northern Europe.  Romans and Normans coerced the people of the land by violence, and called it by a kinder name.  There is nothing inevitable and little morally admissable about rule by class interests.  Our natural way is to lend power, and take it back when it is abused.


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Posted by danielj on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 20:25 | #

Depressing, wasn’t it?

Like any other day in Babylon…


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Posted by Gudmund on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 20:32 | #

No, it wasn’t.  Not in northern Europe.  Romans and Normans coerced the people of the land by violence, and called it by a kinder name.  There is nothing inevitable and little morally admissable about rule by class interests.  Our natural way is to lend power, and take it back when it is abused.

It is hard to be convinced by this argument in light of the fact that, for as long as civilization existed in Northern Europe, the form of rule was aristocratic feudalism.  The earliest Germanic Kings were elected, but the arrangement changed with the passage of time such that, once Europe reached a truly civilized level (i.e. 10th century or so), this custom was a distant memory.  To speak of ‘the consent of the governed’ as the natural way of things is to imagine a reversion to how things were pre-civilization - and even then there was hierarchy.

I am afraid I must also disagree that it is not inevitable that the more dominant individuals within a race will eventually rise to the top, congregate with one another, and form an aristocratic society.  This is a constant feature of civilizations, since the very first one.

I agree that the Normans alien origin and contempt for the indigenous folk led to a rather unique situation in England which was unfortunate.  But even in this particular case, the Anglo-Saxons prior to the Normans had their own King, who enjoyed their confidence.


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Posted by Notus Wind on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 21:30 | #

NN,

A couple foundational questions for you:

Where is the good to be found?

What is real or, in other words, how do you separate reality from fiction?

I’ll wait for your answer.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 21:37 | #

Gudmund,

The notion of kingship is not the same as the notion of feudal control.  The feudal age lasted in England between 1066 and 1642.  It was challenged progressively, with some digressions, from 1485 onward.  Further, the ruling class was not uniformly aristocratic by birth during this period.  Until the Black Death in 1348 the language at court remained French.  But after it the language was English.

There is no special magic attached to feudal control.  What drives European Man is his creativity and mastery over Nature.  It was always so, save for the period between Christianisation and the arising of Dante and Petrarch and Gutenberg.

European Man is, by his Nature, independent and individualistic, creative and adventurous.  Our qualities are unmatched.  To presume that we cannot organise our society without a coercive, self-interested aristocracy is absurd, and a victory for the love of ideas over the love of the European self.  We are better than that.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 07 Nov 2010 23:21 | #

NN,

A couple foundational questions for you:

Where is the good to be found?

What is real or, in other words, how do you separate reality from fiction?

I’ll wait for your answer.

Very good of you to be patient with me.

Perhaps you might assist the old man with some foundational qualifications:

1) Do you mean “the good” as in “the Good, the True, and the Beautiful”?

2) Or do you mean as in “Beyond Good and Evil”?

3) Or perhaps you have something else in mind.

As to “separating reality from fiction,” the answer would be very involved in order to be comprehensive.

So perhaps you could be more cooperative and economical than was Daniel in getting to the essence of the issue as it concerns you.

As a preliminary measure, you might specify which aspect of “reality” most engages your interest in making this distinction.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 00:00 | #

To presume that we cannot organise our society without a coercive, self-interested aristocracy is absurd,..

So might it seem until one has troubled oneself to systematically investigate the reasons for history’s global, multi-millenial, defiance of the resort to any alternative.

For example, GW, please provide your (non-stupid) remedy for the incoherence and antinomies characteristic of antiti-trust law as directed to the attempt to avert collusion in restraint of trade such as is productive of class war.
 
In the absence of such a rectified body of law, GW, administration of political-economy will follow policy rather than principle, and such administration by policy (i.e., governance by men and not by law) does not allow of guidance by popular referenda or by choice of popular representatives, as you would naively propose in initial reaction to the posing of this fundamental age-old problem, regarding which you obviously have no prior analytical knowledge.

Thus we have the history of human civilization as we find it all around the world, past and present - with organized minorities in control - and not under the control - of disorganized majorities, according to the Iron Law of Oligarchy.


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Posted by Al Ross on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 00:36 | #

For those MR supporters who, like myself, admire Nietzsche and HL Mencken, here’s The Antichrist :

http://www.fns.org.uk/ac.htm


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Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 00:42 | #

Neo,

So might it seem until one has troubled oneself to systematically investigate the reasons for history’s global, multi-millenial, defiance of the resort to any alternative.

For example, GW, please provide your (non-stupid) remedy for the incoherence and antinomies characteristic of antiti-trust law as directed to the attempt to avert collusion in restraint of trade such as is productive of class war.

Anti-trust law?  A cure for galloping self-interest?  Well, I am not much concerned with such detail at this point.  But we can talk about some prior considerations.

Let’s get back to the first of your two sentences above.  We are not Han Chinese.  Submission to authority as an evolutionarily adaptive group strategy is not in our character.  Conformism, and the moral order it sustains for the Han, is not singularly adaptive for us.  The Han are a great people of the northern hemisphere, as we are.  But they are not us, and we are not them.  We have our own evolutionarily adaptive behaviours which flow from specificities of the European character, among which are independence and individualism.  These tie in qualities such as self-reliance, initiative, analyticism, courage and conviction, all of which aid the ability to survive in the European Environment of Evolutionary Adaptiveness, and have been selected and coded accordingly.  The desire for freedom, it seems to me, is a will to this estate.

You cannot simply sweep this aside these, our endowed characteristics.  You cannot declare us Han - you cannot exchange that which is adaptive for us for that which is maladaptive - without negative consequences.  It happens, of course, and the negative consequences certainly flow.  One precondition for that is that the people must be too self-estranged to know their own needs and appetites.  Such estrangement has happened repeatedly in the past, and happens in the present, and the method has always been to have imposed upon us an interpretation of freedom which is untrue.  Behind the freedom lie lurks the controlling hand.  Notwithstanding CC’s cute interpretation of my Weltanshauung earlier in this thread, my clear goal is precisely a “resort to an alternative” in this respect, namely the truth of what is, the gateway to which is the truth that “we are”.

I wonder if you understand this latter better than the good Grim.  Well, perhaps we shall see.

Thus we have the history of human civilization as we find it all around the world, past and present - with organized minorities in control - and not under the control - of disorganized majorities, according to the Iron Law of Oligarchy.

Nature pisses on your Iron Law, and rusts it away.


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Posted by pug on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 01:23 | #

Guessedworker,

See this.


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Posted by Desmond Jones on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 01:26 | #

We are not Han Chinese.  Submission to authority as an evolutionarily adaptive group strategy is not in our character.

True, but not as either/or but as a continuum. Nepotism, submission to the pressures of extended family, are not absent from the Anglo-Saxon world, but are much less prevalent. The continuum progresses least to most, thus the Italians, Germans and Russians, for example, may tend more to traits of nepotism than the English.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 01:35 | #

Thank you, Desmond.  Agree with you.  Would you class the English further to the extreme of the continuum than the Scandinavians?

Pug,

Yep, they exist.  They are an evil.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 01:36 | #

I wonder if you understand this latter better than the good Grim.  Well, perhaps we shall see.

I understand your substantive statements perfectly - while you do not understand the vital consideration I just raised - regarding the intractable problem of politico-economic collusion - via a specific example that you now “stupidly” brush aside. 

In consequence of your lack, you fail to recognize and mention the implication of your own considerations in regard of the frequency of repetition of the inevitable re-imposition of oligarchy in the West as compared with the East.  The “Bootstrap” theory of quark persistence provides, by way of introduction to this vital consideration (in which you are sadly further remiss), an instructive analogy for the latter phenomenon.

So you find yourself at a serious disadvantage in this regard, since I wrote a graduate school thesis on the point that was acclaimed as “brilliant” by the supervising professor. 

Nature pisses on your Iron Law, and rusts it away.

And the Second Advent is due any time now.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 01:53 | #

Neo,

Political economy?  Quaint.  You don’t mean economics, then?  In any case, I can’t help you.  I’m afraid I am interested in prior questions.

Let’s try to meet half-way.

CC noted that I wish to replace liberalism in its broadest sense.  He is only too well aware - reminds me of it regularly - that I have, in the past, also expressed an assassin’s interest in that other great source of anti-freedom, which was its non-secular parent.  These two systems of philosophical and psychological error have had a pretty good run, something like 1000 to 1500 years, with little in the way of interruption, though one such happened in some parts of Europe during the 20th Century.

Now, given such unkindly suzereignty over what we must think and feel and value, you would hardly expect the history of our people to be filled with light and good, would you?  Yet here you are keenly urging upon us your rusty old law, never comprehending for one moment that it is nothing to do with out nature and nothing to do with our natural life, but everything to do with the error in which we have lived - which error I would gladly see brought to an end.

I am, Neo, proposing a new European dispensation quite unconnected to, and unproductive of, the maladies that have bedevilled our past, among them the object of your desire.

Now, who has the big idea here?  Me or Nietzsche?


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Posted by pug on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 02:11 | #

Guessedworker,

If the hostile managerial elite is replaced with one that resolves the mess and clearly instructs its subjects to violently overthrow it and future instances should it ever interfere with the race because of EGI considerations, we win. If the managerial elite disappears, unlikely as you well noted in the linked essay, Eurokind will disappear. I pray that you are wrong.

As for Euroman’s endowed characteristics, individualism and independence are not what most people notice; that’s what Bushmen are known for. It is rather our capacity for organisation (which may or may not be aided by them, at times).


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Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 04:26 | #

NN,

Perhaps you might assist the old man with some foundational qualifications:

1) Do you mean “the good” as in “the Good, the True, and the Beautiful”?

Probably this.  I mean “the good” in the very standard philosophical sense of that which makes normative judgments possible.

As to “separating reality from fiction,” the answer would be very involved in order to be comprehensive.
...

Focus on the question, “What is real?” if the latter phrasing gives you too much grief.  In other words, how do you assess the ontological status of abstract truths, normative values, paranormal phenomena, spiritual planes, etc.  Surely, you have reached some conclusions about these matters.


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Posted by Desmond Jones on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 04:27 | #

Guessedworker ,

The graph posted suggests the Swedes are closer to the Germans, in that regard.

The Iron Law does not appear to pose a problem from an evolutionary perspective. Elites will arise naturally because of reproductive differentials. However, where does Michels suggest that the Iron Law is ethnically/racially prescriptive? And even if it is, how is a people who evolved a non-kinship based system of reciprocity made to be ethnic nepotists when they are, at best, kin centric? It still leaves the same issue unresolved. From an Englishman to the Chinese there is no evidence that natural or sexual selection works based upon ethnic nepotism.  EGI remains simply a prescription. An oligarchy will only pursue a course towards EGI if it serves its own interest.


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Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 04:48 | #

NN,

Thus we have the history of human civilization as we find it all around the world, past and present - with organized minorities in control - and not under the control - of disorganized majorities, according to the Iron Law of Oligarchy.

Granted, the great majority of people live their lives while an organized minority manages the political apparatus, that much is obvious.  But how should this organized minority come to be?  Should it arise on its own or should it be determined via heredity, elections, paper tests, man to man single combat, or something else?  Who gets the power and all that.


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Posted by the Narrator... on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 05:13 | #

“You could probably do the same thing with Tolkien’s mythology.”

It does and no you could not.

Posted by danielj on November 07, 2010, 02:35 PM

Sure you can. Just ask the billions of muslims, hindus, buddhists, mormons, etc…etc….
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He didn’t have Eve.

Posted by danielj on November 07, 2010, 02:35 PM

Thank you! As I said, that fact kills the entire New Testament narrative.
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I don’t read the story that way.

Posted by danielj on November 07, 2010, 02:35 PM

Well, I read it as it’s written.

Facts of the story,

1. He forceably took their grain.
2. He sold it back to them.
3. He took their money, then HE TOOK THE MONEY OUT OF CIRCULATION which caused starvation and forced them to sell themselves and their families into slavery.
4. He rounded them up and shoved them into ghettos.

Not a nice guy!
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Yes because the Hebrews are representative of the elect who are under God’s care. I don’t really see what the big deal is. I’m not sure why you care about the damn Egyptians so much.

Posted by danielj on November 07, 2010, 02:35 PM

It wasn’t just the hebrews, other peoples went to Egypt as well.

To answer your question,
Because,

in case you hadn’t noticed, that story is playing out right now in The West, including and particularly, America.

The White race are the Egyptians in this go-round.

It is the White race’s back upon which the rest of the world leaches, especially the jews. We work to feed and sustain them, even as we are loosing our society and becoming enslaved to that end.

Just look at Hussein’s visit to India right now. What that trip represents is no different than Joseph’s “collection” of the Egyptian’s grain to give to foreigners.

It’s called redistribution. Marxism 101. And in point of fact the current “prez” has more than a passing character resemblance to Joseph.

Think about it this way,

in the narrative the hebrew god was the one true god…...he was also the enemy of the Egyptians and worked towards their ruin and destruction for his own glory.

What if your god is the one true god…..and is also the enemy of the White race?

After all, what is happening to us today is, according to prophesy, suppose to happen.


...


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Posted by danielj on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 05:51 | #

Thank you! As I said, that fact kills the entire New Testament narrative.

No it doesn’t.

Not a nice guy!

God isn’t a nice guy to His enemies.

Because,

in case you hadn’t noticed, that story is playing out right now in The West, including and particularly, America.

Again. I don’t understand why you care. I’ve read it. I know what you are getting at and what you are always getting at. You’re not asking leading questions because I know the answers you want and I agree with you that they are the correct answers.

What if your god is the one true god…..and is also the enemy of the White race?

He is the enemy of most of the entire human race inclusive. It just doesn’t bother me the way it does you since I agree with Him that we are all guilty and deserve our punishment.

Calvinism 101 brah.


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Posted by the Narrator... on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 06:21 | #

“Thank you! As I said, that fact kills the entire New Testament narrative.”

No it doesn’t.

Posted by danielj on November 08, 2010, 04:51 AM

Of course it does.

But it seems we’ve reached the “does too!/does not!” phase of the argument, so I guess we can drop it for now and pick it up again when it inevitably resurfaces in another thread.

...


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Posted by Desmond Jones on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 06:47 | #

But how should this organized minority come to be?

It arises naturally because of nepotism. Legacies for schools like Harvard are a prime example. Regardless of the striving toward meritocracy there is no way that parents will set aside the well-being of their offspring because it’s not fair their child should be advantaged by their ability, as an alumni, to donate a large sum of money. 40% of the children of alumni get into Harvard compared with only 11% of ordinary applicants.

Matthew Burr ranked fourth in his Groton class but had an SAT score of 1240. Three-fourths of Harvard students have SAT scores of 1380 or higher. Mr. Burr applied to one other college, Williams, which rejected him. Now a Harvard senior, Matthew Burr says he took the SAT four times. “I just don’t test well,” he says. He acknowledges his father’s Harvard ties aided his admission chances. “I don’t think legacy is a fair criterion for people to get into college,” he adds. “But for me, that was the way it was.”


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Posted by Al Ross on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 07:06 | #

The standards for Harvard admission were automatically Jewed and lowered when intellectual capability became severely over - emphasised at the expense of (Aryan) character. Cecil Rhodes established his eponymous Scholarships to take account of the latter.

Sometimes, of course, mistakes were made in the matter of character and one Rhodes Scholarship recipient from Arkansas, Bill Clinton, wasted two years at Oxford peaceniking and protesting thus failing to gain his M.Phil degree.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 14:12 | #

I mean “the good” in the very standard philosophical sense of that which makes normative judgments possible.

It appears that, in general, “the good” is that which, on balance as between present and future rewards, real or imagined, maximizes pleasure/minimizes pain - thus the organic world and its pursuit of the satisfaction of appetite and the avoidance of damage.

However, for highly organized humanity, arrangements for the maximization of this “pleasure” are extremely complicated, indirect, and dilatory - hence culture and the wide variety of “pleasures” to be experienced, both subtle and obvious, immediate and transcendent.  For example, the ascetic expects to find the balance of his pleasure in the hereafter.  The authentic Buddhist is comforted in the belief that eliminating pain is the best strategy in a world wherein the balance of experience otherwise falls on the side of pain.

So we can say that Hedonism, broadly defined short of becoming tautological, captures “the good” when we survey human behavior in general.

Focus on the question, “What is real?” if the latter phrasing gives you too much grief.  In other words, how do you assess the ontological status of abstract truths, normative values, paranormal phenomena, spiritual planes, etc.  Surely, you have reached some conclusions about these matters.

Basically, I’m a Pragmatist in this regard.

So - please reciprocate.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 14:57 | #

Notus,

There was a bit of patronizing impatience in the tone of your questions for which me might account by presuming that I should have wasted my time with classical philosophical concerns.

For the most part I have not - regarding them, rather, as naive and uninformed by science, social and natural.

Those who do science other than QM do not bother much with such questions - straightforward evidence and logic, coherence and correspondence, give us guidance as to how the world works.

In the modern day, the most frequent epistemological issue to be addressed is the tautology/circumlocution, wherein one erroneously believes there is substantive content amidst a proposition that can be maintained only by emptying it of content.

A familiar example of this philosophical exercise - one thus worth addressing - is the notion that:

“All things work for good for those who love the Lord”

Of course, this is a falsehood under any substantive definition of “Good”.

So the theologian has emptied it of content by reducing it to a mere tautology, here.

But people live by such fictions, and thus it is here that the philosopher au courant directs his attention and so expects to be consulted with regard to the same.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 15:00 | #

“...for which we might account…”


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Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:02 | #

NN: There was a bit of patronizing impatience in the tone of your questions for which me might account by presuming that I should have wasted my time with classical philosophical concerns.

Ha!  Who are you - of all people - to get on to someone for indulging in a fleeting moment of condescension.  You’ll just have to excuse me as I ran out of coffee a bit earlier last night than expected; it happens sometimes.

Actually, I’m quite pleased with your answers to my questions and am developing a more substantive response.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:36 | #

Ha!  Who are you - of all people - to get on to someone for indulging in a fleeting moment of condescension. You’ll just have to excuse me as I ran out of coffee a bit earlier last night than expected; it happens sometimes.

You are certainly excused for a mere fleeting moment of condescension born of indisposition - now that the appearance of your remarks otherwise has been exposed as that in which I - of all people - do not myself indulge. grin


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Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 19:06 | #

NN,

First of all, let’s not kid ourselves about the fact that you come to us not merely as an adept in matters of political-economy.  The Nietzschean perspective that you represent has more to say about life, which is why you are sometimes the locus of vigorous debate around here.

To briefly summarize the situation for those in the audience.

Nietzsche successfully diagnosed the problem when he said, “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.”, which is to say that even people who profess belief in Him seldom live their lives as if that belief were genuine.  What was once the locus of all truth, goodness, and meaning for our pre-modern counterparts has become just another smashed idol for the great majority of us.  How are we to fix this problem?

Nietzsche’s solution is for us to become worthy of this great deed by becoming gods ourselves.  What this means, as best I can gather, is that along with shedding our belief in God we must also shed our adherence to the slave morality that has always gone hand in hand with our belief in Him in exchange for a new kind of morality - a master morality.  This new morality will celebrate the strong-willed man, his nobility and dominance, and allow him to be his own value-creating judge; no longer confined by the strictures of a Levantine slave morality.  Western man will become a noble god when he starts to create his own values and dominate the earth from his own perspective.  The noble archetypes that he should look to for inspiration can be found in the long forgotten tradition of Homeric Greece and Ancient Rome; forgotten because they have been replaced by that of Jerusalem at some point in the distant past.

Let’s pause for a moment and reflect upon just how appealing this all is from a certain far rightist perspective.  We get to liberate our appetites from the golden rule and become gods ourselves; we get to save our race and dominate the earth without having to answer to anyone.  The ethical questions that people like Leon worry about become meaningless!  And, perhaps best of all, we get to blame all of our big mistakes on a Jerusalem that tricked us into abandoning our noble [Ancient] Roman tradition.

Sadly, anything that is too good to be true is probably too good to be true.  CC and Sam take note.

The big problem with Nietzsche’s solution is that it rests on the claim that are no higher principles above man.  Nietzsche recognized this dilemma and responded to it by declaring that the philosophers and the theologians got it all wrong, “Suppose truth is a woman, what then?”  He goes on to suggest that abstract truths and moral values are just a sum of human relations and don’t actually “exist”.  If I were to ask Nietzsche the question, “Where does ‘the good’ exist?  Where does abstract truth exist?” his response would be, “Nowhere, for they do not exist.  If you are worthy, you can create them for yourself.”  This is a very important move on Nietzsche’s part because his master morality says that the strong-willed man is value-creating and answers to nothing beyond himself, but how can this be if values and truths already exist independently of man?  It can’t be, that’s why he denies them in the beginning of, “Beyond Good and Evil”.

The price we must pay for adopting Nietzsche’s solution is that we have to forget Heidegger’s observation that we are “thrown into the world”, a world that is governed by principles that we didn’t establish.  We perceive moral principles, rational principles, metaphysical principles, spiritual principles; if any of these objectively exist - as is strongly suggested by the evidence of everyday life - then we can only pretend to create our own Nietzschean substitutes.  We might imagine ourselves gods, but who are we trying to fool?

I’ll give you this, maybe Nietzsche is right.  Maybe all these abstract principles we perceive are just subjective illusions that we can replace when we become worthy of doing so.  However, the purpose of this analysis is to tease out a rather strong philosophical claim that underpins your Nietzschean perspective, and it is very much subject to the sadness of doubt.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 20:36 | #

However, the purpose of this analysis is to tease out a rather strong philosophical claim that underpins your Nietzschean perspective, and it is very much subject to the sadness of doubt.

Which is well taken - for Nietzsche, in more than one context, seems to exaggerate for effect.

In this instance, where his epistemology as of BGE is other than nonsense, he is trying to free his “good Europeans” from the absolutist philosophical chains in which they are bound - by denying the “existence” of the chains that seemingly confine humanity to being merely “human” .

But this is a false dichotomy.

For the chains, indeed, do not “exist” - but nevertheless have reality as imaginative representations thereof that are subject to probation as prescriptions for or limitations on life and the attainment of demi-divinity.

Perhaps Nietzsche reckoned that dynamiting rather than trying to liquify hypostatizations was called for in this instance.

So Nietzsche evidently gave himself over to the drama of the promise of self-apotheosis as of that writing, but he calmed down in later work, writing rather of “the man that Zarathustra wants” and who is distinguished by “conceiving reality as it is”.

And this latter is what I take of this issue from the mature Nietzsche.


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Posted by Sam Davidson on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 22:51 | #

Narrator,

Have you read “The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit” by E. Michael Jones?

If you would like to collaborate or share thoughts, my email is s.davidson1981 at gmx.com


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Posted by Captainchaos on Mon, 08 Nov 2010 23:48 | #

Nepotism, submission to the pressures of extended family, are not absent from the Anglo-Saxon world, but are much less prevalent.

The will to use authoritarian measures of control unthinkable in America don’t seem to be absent from the English repertoire.  Such as security cameras equipped with speakers that allow a cop sitting on his well-fed ass to observe the actions of street-side pedestrians; and if these displease him, to instruct them to, “Move along!”  Why are measures such as these not the subject of effusive condemnation and yet what the dirty Krauts did 70 years ago are; and why could not the same or similar authoritarian tools already in place in England now not be used to preserve the English instead of working towards their destruction?  My guess: more Engerlish hypocritical, moralistic hand-wringing.

EGI remains simply a prescription.

Not taking a long walk off a tall building remains simply a prescription.

An oligarchy will only pursue a course towards EGI if it serves its own interest.

Would it or would it not serve their interests if they were put up against the wall, and additionally had all their assets confiscated by the state with not one damn dime going to their family, if they fucked with the EGI of the populace?


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Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 00:09 | #

pug,

If the hostile managerial elite is replaced with one that resolves the mess and clearly instructs its subjects to violently overthrow it and future instances should it ever interfere with the race because of EGI considerations, we win. If the managerial elite disappears, unlikely as you well noted in the linked essay, Eurokind will disappear. I pray that you are wrong.

The issue is not the existence of an elite since society will always stratify.  The issue is the taking of power by a narrow interest group rather than the lending of it by the people.  Consent must be sought and obtained.  Subjecthood must be voluntary and revokable.  In other words, the people deserve only the leaders they choose, for better or worse.

As for Euroman’s endowed characteristics, individualism and independence are not what most people notice; that’s what Bushmen are known for. It is rather our capacity for organisation (which may or may not be aided by them, at times).

It is important, if one is thinking about our individualism in an evolutionary sense, not to confuse it with the strategy of assertiveness which is characteristic to Sub-Saharan Africans.  Individualism in the European is a marker for mate selection like assertiveness.  But it is more than assertiveness, and more even than assertiveness + intelligence.  As I said before, it ties in qualities such as self-reliance, initiative, analyticism, courage and conviction, all of which reflect well on one’s ability to survive in the European EEA, and have been coded and selected accordingly.

The balance in Europeans between individualism and collectivism is evidently a fine one.  We need freedom and we need order.  Why?  Because we are conflicted with Nature and must progress to survive.  All things that are selected are conducive to fitness to environment, and in us that means keeping ahead of Nature’s opposition to our existence in these climes.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 00:27 | #

Consent must be sought and obtained.

“Consent” is manufactured by propaganda immersion via media and education.  Are Cockney Bob and Chav Charlie to have input on what is broadcast on the tube and what is printed in textbooks?  Could they even reasonably be said to understand said if given the opportunity?


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Posted by pug on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 00:34 | #

Guessedworker,

I agree with the Captain as usual. What if, bedazzled as you still are about humankind meaning much of anything, what the English revoke is their full consent power to include the non-English? What if they were instructed that forming an opinion on their own is outdated, evil and reactionary, that openmindedness is the way to go, and now they are beholden to the self-interested memes of the endless Expertsteins and Spokesbergs ready to barrage them to the effect that their existence does not matter?


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Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 00:58 | #

Notus,

Nietzsche successfully diagnosed the problem when he said, “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.”, which is to say that even people who profess belief in Him seldom live their lives as if that belief were genuine.  What was once the locus of all truth, goodness, and meaning for our pre-modern counterparts has become just another smashed idol for the great majority of us.  How are we to fix this problem?

This is already starting too far along the way.  So we get:

Nietzsche’s solution is for us to become worthy of this great deed by becoming gods ourselves.

It means nothing to me.  Who is this “us”?  What are its powers?  What is its state of consciousness?  What is its relation to being?

What this means, as best I can gather, is that along with shedding our belief in God we must also shed our adherence to the slave morality that has always gone hand in hand with our belief in Him in exchange for a new kind of morality - a master morality.

I suppose one could, metaphysically speaking, say that mastery is a quality of the self in habitation of its self, meaning in a state of “completing” consciousness (I dislike “higher”) through the act of attention.

Morality, meaning adaptive behaviour, engages with this state only insomuch as “the good” is everything that leads to it, and the “bad” everything that leads away from it and back down into the world of absence and mechanicity.

The big problem with Nietzsche’s solution is that it rests on the claim that are no higher principles above man.

The big problem with Nietzsche, it seems to me, is that he didn’t think from the beginning.  Thus:

The price we must pay for adopting Nietzsche’s solution is that we have to forget Heidegger’s observation that we are “thrown into the world”, a world that is governed by principles that we didn’t establish.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 01:00 | #

The issue is not the existence of an elite since society will always stratify.  The issue is the taking of power by a narrow interest group rather than the lending of it by the people.  Consent must be sought and obtained.  Subjecthood must be voluntary and revokable.  In other words, the people deserve only the leaders they choose, for better or worse.

Thus perpetuating civil war until an autocrat emerges.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 01:01 | #

CC

Are Cockney Bob and Chav Charlie to have input on what is broadcast on the tube and what is printed in textbooks?  Could they even reasonably be said to understand said if given the opportunity?

And who would broadcast on the tube, and who would write the textbooks?  What would the double-digits have inside their heads?


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Posted by pug on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 01:04 | #

And who would broadcast on the tube, and who would write the textbooks?  What would the double-digits have inside their heads?

The English for the English. Normalcy.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 01:06 | #

Neo,

Thus perpetuating civil war until an autocrat emerges.

Tribes war, it is true.  But we are no longer tribal.  We are genetic groupings at the level of peoples.  Peoples do not war with themselves.  Autocratic leaders do.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 01:07 | #

Pug,

Normalcy by all means.  There is no higher estate.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 01:08 | #

Engerlishmuns need to be housebroken to the sensibility that moral superiority lies in respect for an official racial order whose legally enshrined purpose is the continuity of their ethny.  There will then be no “freedom” that can possibly be “respectable” which falls outside of those parameters.  After all, it won’t even be “freedom” that is lost; it will be “unfreedom” or “freedumb” which is proscribed - and who would wish to be considered an “un” or a “dumb”-ass?  Kinda like “hate speech isn’t free speech”.  LOL!


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 01:52 | #

Tribes war, it is true.  But we are no longer tribal.  We are genetic groupings at the level of peoples.  Peoples do not war with themselves.  Autocratic leaders do.

Evidently, you know nothing of political history:

1) Civil war in the City-States of Classic Greece

2) Civil War in First Century proto-imperial Rome

3) Civil war in the Medieval city-states of Europe

4) The English Civil War

5) The French Revolution and Terror

6) The (American) Civil War

7)  The Mexican Revolution

8) The Russian Revolution

9) The German and Bavarian Revolutions

10) The Weimar Republic

11) The Spanish Civil War

12) The Chinese Revolution and Civil War

13) The Hungarian Revolution

14) The Korean War

15) The Vietnam War

To name only the most prominent examples of peoples at war with themselves under the popular leadership of at least one party.


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Posted by Al Ross on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 03:09 | #

When the EU’s precursor body was established with one of its aims being lasting peace in Europe, Enoch Powell in his objections to the new prospective overlordship made the same salient point as NN asking, Have these people never heard of Civil War?


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Posted by Desmond Jones on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 04:25 | #

The will to use authoritarian measures of control unthinkable in America..

Whoa, dude, been to New York recently?

Not taking a long walk off a tall building remains simply a prescription.

Uh no…it’s an evolved trait. EGI is not.

Would it or would it not serve their interests if they were put up against the wall…

By who?

Apartheid served elite interests and thus its racialist nature was promoted and embraced.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 05:10 | #

been to New York recently?

NYC has a much higher percentage of muds than London, yet London is totally decked out with surveillance gear.  Moreover, the police in NYC do not investigate matters of racial insensitivity.  Nor do the authorities arrest with intention of convicting citizens for said, such as the Heretical Two.

it’s an evolved trait. EGI is not.

The desire for self-preservation, and to preserve those one cares for, are evolved trait.  Likewise, the desire to associate with those genetically similar to one’s self is an evolved trait.  The moral proscription of suicide and race-mixing are merely a formalization of said.

By who?

Who shot Ernst Rohm and bundled all those kikes of to concentration camps?  Racialists with the balls to do what needs doing must assume state power and not relinquish it to any but their trusted successors.  There is no other way.


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Posted by Desmond Jones on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 06:04 | #

Surveillance in NYC is a growth sport. There is a ton of cameras. How many Randy Weavers, Wacos and FLDS events have occurred in the UK? An anonymous Negress calls the authorities in Texas and 400 children are forcibly removed from their parents at the point of a gun and nobody says boo?  Randy Weaver’s wife is shot through the head by ATF people because he sawed of a shotgun barely below the legal limit and nothing happens. It’s a joke.

Self-preservation and protection of kin are evolved. “The desire to associate with those genetically similar” is not. Parents will not forsake their kin for the co-ethnic unless they suffer some profound psychosis.

Rohm was shot by those in pursuit of self-interest. If Adolf really loved the German people why did he gamble their well-being in war?


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Posted by Wandrin on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 07:06 | #

Ship sinks. 100 white swimmers get to a desert island. Those 100 swimmers have the standard IQ distribution where 50 of them are 100+.

You think aristocratic feudalism would be the default form of government they’d create for themselves?

It’s nonsense.

The natural default form of government for white people is some kind of mixed republic / monarchy where the republic aspect is rooted in civil affairs and the monarchical in the military. The Ancient Greeks, Roman Republic and all the free tribes of Europe practised variations on that form.

Feudalism in Europe was the result of a collapse from the Romans not an advance.
1) Europeans lost the ability to maintain roads, writing and communications which meant it was impossible to exercise central power and it had to be parcelled up and devolved into small feudal pieces.
2) Armoured knights became the dominant military weapon and each armoured knight needed a village to support them.

Gunpowder destroyed feudalism. Gunpowder required a political form that would motivate a different kind of army and so things gradually went back to the Romano-Greek-EuroTribe model.

If you have a population where the average IQ is 100 then any political system that doesn’t try to utilize all those brains is not the most efficient.


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Posted by Hail on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 07:49 | #

Good point by Wandrin above. Feudalism is more suited to the Orient, where it existed more or less continuously for 4,000 years or more. Their best times came when feudalism was functioning smoothest; their stagnant times came when feudalism broke down.

Compare to Europe’s 400 years or so with feudalism. When feudalism was most ‘perfected’, we call it “The Dark Ages”. When we broke out: the “Renaissance”, rebirth!


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Posted by Captainchaos on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 07:49 | #

It’s a joke.

It surely is.  The UK has fully disarmed its citizens, so there is no “plausible” deniability in performing essentially military strikes against them, but this is no hindrance from men in full body armor carrying automatic weapons performing raids.

“The desire to associate with those genetically similar” is not.

 

So the fact that not many more than 10% of Whites engage in race-mixing is merely a cultural artifact despite every conceivable propaganda effort to contravene that?  Ridiculous.

If Adolf really loved the German people why did he gamble their well-being in war?

He believed that if he did not they would ultimately perish.  The West was trending towards dissolution even then, and those with eyes to see knew it well.


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Posted by Desmond Jones on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 08:31 | #

The UK has fully disarmed its citizens

Please…as if the Branch Dravidians could stand against the ATF. As if the Montana Freeman could resist the FBI. Just because Americans can carry arms does not mean they are able to resist the forces of government.

So the fact that not many more than 10% of Whites engage in race-mixing is merely a cultural artifact despite every conceivable propaganda effort to contravene that?  Ridiculous.

Rushton explains it in GST including the race mixing. Nextwe will be told that rich white people don’t live with poor white people, even if they were born poor,because it’s an evolved trait. Nothing to do with pursuing self-interest. However, according to the whites associate with whites because it’s genetic theory, this can’t be. The Obamas send their kids to a white school, not to the ‘Hood, contrary to this alleged evolutionary imperative. How can that be? It’s self-interest.

He believed that if he did not they would ultimately perish.

So he decided to gamble their existence by fighting the same war that had spilled so much good German blood twenty years earlier. It’s not love, it some sort of profound psychosis.


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Posted by Al Ross on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 08:51 | #

The captain’s statement, “The UK has fully disarmed its citizens” sends retrospective shivers down my spine. My semi - inattention to changes in the law meant that I omitted consideration of the (mandatory prison term) penalty which would have been applicable had I been apprehended while walking around the outskirts of St Andrews carrying my father’s pistol in an attempt to find a suitable place for its safe disposal.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 11:25 | #

Neo,

Would you like to point out which of those wars was instigated by the desire in one people to destroy another, and not by rivalry between elites?

There is one instance in the post-tribal history of the European world - one - of a popular desire for such destruction, and the offending party is not even European.  No prizes.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:39 | #

GW,

Would you like to point out which of those wars was instigated by the desire in one people to destroy another, and not by rivalry between elites?

No need - because your contention, rather, was as follows:

“Tribes war, it is true.  But we are no longer tribal.  We are genetic groupings at the level of peoples.  Peoples do not war with themselves. [Emphasis mine, NN]

All of the above-listed episodes of civil/revolutionary war (with the possible exception of the Hungarian revolt against the Soviets) are crushing counter-examples to your claim.

And these remarks follow upon, and are in response to the following:

[GW:] The issue is not the existence of an elite since society will always stratify. The issue is the taking of power by a narrow interest group rather than the lending of it by the people.  Consent must be sought and obtained.  Subjecthood must be voluntary and revokable.  In other words, the people deserve only the leaders they choose, for better or worse.

[NN:] Thus perpetuating civil war [Emphasis added, NN] until an autocrat emerges.

[GW:] Tribes war, it is true…Peoples do not war with themselves.

[NN:] (multiple counter-examples)

Thus you now pretend that the dispute is in regard to inter-national war rather than unavoidable intra-national war, wherein the administrative requirement for the eventual emergence of an elite independent of popular favor must be met by societies that have advanced past the tribal-democratic level - as history and the logic of political-economy demonstrate repeatedly throughout the world.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:34 | #

The natural default form of government for white people is some kind of mixed republic / monarchy where the republic aspect is rooted in civil affairs and the monarchical in the military. The Ancient Greeks, Roman Republic and all the free tribes of Europe practised variations on that form.

...Until further politico-economic evolution brought forth the oriental regimes of the late Roman Empire and the Alexandrian Empires.  Followed by the Napoleonic and Hitlerian empires in Europe.

In fact, the capable peoples of the world have evolved administratively according to four basic and essentially parallel patterns that depend upon the geographic and demographic circumstances in which they have settled and conquered.

So White people are neither particularly distinctive nor virtuous in this regard, and the conceit to the contrary is a terminal defect.

For the notion of a “natural default form of government” is self-delusional and culture-distortional (to borrow from Yockey).

It’s comparable to contending that the natural state of the adult is the immaturity of the child that he, and all others, once were.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 16:58 | #

Neo,

The day you can “crush” what I am saying is the day I will enter a reclusive monastery to save my soul.

Please try - try hard - to grasp the fact that, aside for reasons of self-defence, people in healthily self-aware polities do not choose to go to war because their life, individual and collective, has value to them and destruction of that life does not.  And this is so regardless of whether the proposed war is within or without.

Wars of aggression become possible amid a general non-awareness of self, in which condition a discriminative judgement becomes impossible and all manner of wild and dangerous ideas may take over.  This affects ruling elites as well as the masses, and gives licence to them to pursue their own ends at the expense of others.

All I see in your list is this situation, and all I see in you is a desire to perpetuate it.  The ruling elite in a society that is ideal from my perspective - a self-aware society - could not free-ride but must give as it receives, or its members will likely find themselves nailed to a tree or perhaps challenged to armed single combat to the death.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 17:16 | #

GW,

I see where you rather meant to say that “peoples [past the tribal stage] do not war with one another” [under other than (unpopular) elite leaqdership.]

Which does not salvage your case - for the reasons examined.

Once “peoples” are past the tribal (democratic) stage, they do not war with one another under recallable leadership because they are then necessarily preoccupied with civil and revolutionary war toward the emergence of the unifying autocrat who will then turn or return the national/imperial attention to international war (as did Napoleon and Hitler, as our most recent examples).

For it is the case that post-tribal (i.e., national) regimes cannot be popularly (recallably) administered in other than pretense.  [This is the iron-clad logic and history of political economy that awaits the attention of your bladder standing duty for your brain.]

So see the career of Octavian/Augustus Caesar for an object lesson in this principle.

And apply your lesson to the present day.

[Hint: The Permanent Secret Government always wins the election.]


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 17:30 | #

GW,

Please try - try hard - to grasp the fact that, aside for reasons of self-defence, people in healthily self-aware polities do not choose to go to war because their life, individual and collective, has value to them and destruction of that life does not.  And this is so regardless of whether the proposed war is within or without.

And please engage the other organ toward trying to grasp the fact that there is, and cannot be, a “healthily self-aware polity” on a national scale.

The culture of such necessarily involves common belief in (ideological/theological) fictions or false expectations.

Wars of aggression become possible amid a general non-awareness of self, in which condition a discriminative judgement becomes impossible and all manner of wild and dangerous ideas may take over.  This affects ruling elites as well as the masses, and gives licence to them to pursue their own ends at the expense of others.

So you further fail to grasp that such tension is present whether in war or during the “peace” that is merely the interbellum.

All I see in your list is this situation, and all I see in you is a desire to perpetuate it.  The ruling elite in a society that is ideal from my perspective - a self-aware society - could not free-ride but must give as it receives, or its members will likely find themselves nailed to a tree or perhaps challenged to armed single combat to the death.

And I, in turn, see a child’s imagination at work.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 19:04 | #

Once “peoples” are past the tribal (democratic) stage, they do not war with one another under recallable leadership because they are then necessarily preoccupied with civil and revolutionary war ...

Again you want for a critique of human consciousness (ordinary waking consciousness, to be exact).  But how to get this across to you?

Look, certainly to me and I strongly suspect to Notus also, you suffer from an almost Spenglerian attachment to looking upon human action as a succession of forms and events.  This is an exteriorisation which prevents you from even enquiring about the working of the clock.  Another way of saying that was Notus’s remark that:

The price we must pay for adopting Nietzsche’s solution is that we have to forget Heidegger’s observation that we are “thrown into the world”, a world that is governed by principles that we didn’t establish.

Notus and I have not yet got around to contesting the latter part of that remark - we certainly will.  But for now it can serve both our purposes with you.  In my terms it comes down to this: mechanicity within, mechanical effects without; conscious function within, conscious effects without.  This is true for the collective as well as the individual.  Therefore, it is our duty to strive to understand the latter.  The Law of Hazard is not an iron law.  But we cannot entirely escape.  Neither can we entirely escape the weakness of our minds.  We are, after all, “only too human”.  But there is nothing but habituation that keeps us as we are.  We do not have to remain habituated, unawares and therefore submissive and the subject to the purdue that occasions us.  The succession of forms and events can be conscious effects.  We can make the world - like gods, if you want, but loving gods, not capricious autocrats.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 20:32 | #

Look, certainly to me and I strongly suspect to Notus also, you suffer from an almost Spenglerian attachment to looking upon human action as a succession of forms and events.  This is an exteriorisation which prevents you from even enquiring about the working of the clock.

The case is precisely the reverse of what you depict.

It is myself that has looked into the mechanism and worked out its logic and implications.

The extent to which I champion the work of Spengler and Nietzsche is the extent to which I have previously recognized the underlying rationale for the phenomena which they have noticed in overall pattern.

I have briefly covered this topic over at SUPERHUMAN in discussing LAW, ETHICS, MORALITY.

And you have, in consequence of your evident ignorance of such considerations, already brushed past introduction of specifics of the discussion - with regard to the vital implications of the intrinsic limitations of anti-trust and related law for dealing with politico-economic collusion such as occasions the civil wars and revolutions immediately under discussion.

Thus there was no point in further pursuit of that which you are now (by virtue of your incapacity as a receptive student) pleased to deny is in evidence.

Perhaps, once you have done the length of the shelves at a university library under the headings of “Economics” and “Political Science” you might then be equipped to discuss the matter with some sophistication.

Rather, you seem to naively imagine that you have found some sort of transcendent solution in “interirorisation” - whereas yours is merely a formula for another slaughter of a pacified population at the hands of “non-self-aware” aggressors.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 20:50 | #

Again you want for a critique of human consciousness (ordinary waking consciousness, to be exact).  But how to get this across to you?

You can’t - because there is nothing to get across.

You suffer from the delusion of the stress-converted brain that your convictions are something other than nonsense.

I went through this demonstration regarding Heidegger himself, several months ago, with Grimoire.

Heidegger, in the pages of Being and Time, offered a delirious summary of Relativity Theory that bore no relation to reality where it did not contradict it.

And your adoption of his bullshit and rewording of trite observations carries no more weight.

If you would be relevant to the discussion, you must, rather, couch your “critique of human consciousness” in terms of its implication for “Rightly Understood Interest”.  Otherwise you are merely blathering.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 23:21 | #

Just because Americans can carry arms does not mean they are able to resist the forces of government.

You elide my point, Desmond.  It is the disarming of Englishmen that is an affront to their allegedly rugged and individualistic nature, and an act of personal dishonorment for Englishmen that they have abided that with docility.  So after their own fashion they have debased themselves.  Which raises the question in my mind as to what moral authority they have that would allow them to credibility question what Krauts did and do.

As for the point you made: Of course citizens even armed cannot hope to defeat government security forces.  But they can do significant damage (at least from the perspective of those members of the security forces affected) to those security forces that could act as a deterrent to the latter.  It is a significant morale booster to the citizenry and a deflating one for the government.  If not, why does the government so assiduously lobby to disarm the American people?

Rushton explains it in GST including the race mixing.

People do not wholly, or I even think significantly, experience their associational preferences as cold and calculated choices of self-interest but as affinity.

Nextwe will be told that rich white people don’t live with poor white people, even if they were born poor,because it’s an evolved trait.

Do you prefer the company of White trash to the snooty SWPL set?  Given a choice, I’m willing to bet to feel a greater affinity for the latter, despite the fact that you don’t wish to see the former mongrelized.  Why do you care if the former is mongrelized, despite the fact that you clearly would not prefer their company given the choice?

The Obamas send their kids to a white school, not to the ‘Hood, contrary to this alleged evolutionary imperative.

The Obongos are every bit as deracinated as the Blairs and the Clintons.  Middle class blacks, given a choice, prefer to reside in mostly black suburbs.

It’s not love, it some sort of profound psychosis.

We have come full circle, then.  It was I in a past time who assigned mental and moral derangement to leading Nazis with you contending against that position.  Have you truly changed your position, or is this merely a ploy in way of argumentation?  And if so, to what degree is this affected by your decidedly British EGI, a concept you ostensibly disavow?

My position: the Bolsheviks were going to invade, there was nothing to lose.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 23:33 | #

Neo,

You cannot disguise the superficiality of your thinking.  You cannot escape from the weight of the psychological argument.  As soon as you break cover, it will have you.

Let’s dispose of your attempts to deny its power.

You write:

It is myself that has looked into the mechanism and worked out its logic and implications

... the “it” here being the mechanicity (habituation, absence) that characterises ordinary waking consciousness which you, Neo, deliberately confuse with and re-present as your “grand historical process”.  It is, I think, evident that you understand that the turn towards a psychological analysis kills your literalist worldview.  Your literalism has nothing better to say about my psychological analysis than this:

It’s comparable to contending that the natural state of the adult is the immaturity of the child that he, and all others, once were.

... which is as clear statement of a complete and untroubled ignorance as one might wish for.  So ... try to understand.  If you have no theory of mind you cannot explain anything properly.  But if you do have a theory of mind everything can be if not explained at least fitted into the scheme of things.  Hence, my psychological analysis has something to say about your literalism, and that is why you are under attack from me, and not the other way around.

Thus:

And you have, in consequence of your evident ignorance of such considerations, already brushed past introduction of specifics of the discussion - with regard to the vital implications of the intrinsic limitations of anti-trust and related law for dealing with politico-economic collusion such as occasions the civil wars and revolutions immediately under discussion.

So which is likely to offer the deeper epiphany: a reading of the war of aggression as a manifestation of the human condition or as a product of political economy?  Well, is the struggle for resources rooted in the struggle for self-interest and, ultimately, in the struggle for genetic interests and for life itself, or is it an upshot of “intrinsic limitations to antitrust and related law of dealing with politico-economic collusion”?

One guess.

you seem to naively imagine that you have found some sort of transcendent solution in “interirorisation” - whereas yours is merely a formula for another slaughter of a pacified population at the hands of “non-self-aware” aggressors.

Did I mention pacifism?  No.  Only you mentioned that.  A dishonest way to debate.  But let’s leave that aside.  Answer this.  Why do you suppose a people who know why they must fight will be less willing to do so than a people who are merely told why they must fight?

You can’t - because there is nothing to get across. You suffer from the delusion of the stress-converted brain that your convictions are something other than nonsense.

You show your non-seriousness as a human being.  It does not matter how many books you have read or how many essays you have crafted.  If you cannot find even the trailing hooks of meaning in the words of someone who is speaking of real life, your own life will always be shallow and unsatisfying, and passed in darkness.

And your adoption of his bullshit and rewording of trite observations carries no more weight.

Heidegger is not source material for me.  What I am saying can be understood with or without Heidegger, but since Heidegger exists, it is better “with”.

If you would be relevant to the discussion, you must, rather, couch your “critique of human consciousness” in terms of its implication for “Rightly Understood Interest”.  Otherwise you are merely blathering.

You really are insufferable.  Who do you think you are, declaring the parameters for acceptability of matters of which you are sublimely ignorant yourself?  The model of human consciousness you so disparage locks you, Neo, away in a darkened, windowless, airless room, not a new-god with a handlebar moustache but a bundle of uncontrollable nervous twitches and an unedifying dependency on intellectual self-validation ... a weak, hollow, easily ignored nonentity.  This is unconscious Neo.  It is nothing, as we all are nothing.  For not you nor I nor any man is more than that, and if any of us want to rise to an understanding of the world, we must rise first to an understanding of that, or there will be only the hollow sound of our own echoing voices and, in the case of arguers like you and I, the even more hollow sound of our respective rejections of one another in the blind belief that we alone are right, we alone are relevant.

This model of human consciousness offers some observations on an individual and collective arising from that sad and true condition, and if it has no value to another soul in this world, then it is not because it is untrue, but because I have failed in my efforts to communicate it.  If I am failing with you, I cannot blame myself too much.  For you are a most determined donkey of a man.

Now will you come out into the open where I can draw a bead on you?


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Posted by Captainchaos on Tue, 09 Nov 2010 23:49 | #

Neo’s online presentation is I imagine much resonant with the English of a Hermann Goring type character.  The quintessential “Prussian militarist”: sharp intelligence, insufferable arrogance, irksome flamboyance.  These were to be the men who would rule Europe?!  Blimey and blasphemy!  But that dirty old Kraut Goring was always one step ahead of the game, even when his luck was down, and accordingly cheated the noose of Anglo-Saxon “justice” in the end.


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Posted by Desmond Jones on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 00:48 | #

The original point was the condemnation of the Nazis as immoral because of the alleged Slavocaust. The contempt arose because of the allegedly planned extermination of Slavs for the furtherance of the well-being of the German people. This is not the same as a population that has allowed itself to be disarmed. However, the question left unanswered is if the was a General Plan Ost where is the evidence of it? The determination for whether the Germans, from a WN perspective, debased themselves lies here and to date the evidence is not all that clear.

What morale boost was garnered by Ruby Ridge? The government does not care about the suffering of the security force as long as it serves their agenda which is motivated by self-interest. 

If not, why does the government so assiduously lobby to disarm the American people?

Lobby group self-interest. The Brady bill is an example. Why to groups lobby for speech restrictions? Same answer.

People do not wholly, or I even think significantly, experience their associational preferences as cold and calculated choices of self-interest but as affinity.

The selfish gene. They probably don’t experience it at all.

Middle class blacks, given a choice, prefer to reside in mostly black suburbs.

How then is black flight from the ‘hood explained? Self-interest. They want the new house, the lower criminality and the better schools for their children

It was I in a past time who assigned mental and moral derangement to leading Nazis with you contending against that position.

The contention is that leading the German people to war was not founded in love of kind, but self-interest. Even a majority of Germans did not believe Hitler invaded Poland to save ethnic Germans.

Do you prefer the company of White trash to the snooty SWPL set?

No, more of a Gulliverian misanthrope.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 01:48 | #

GW,

You cannot disguise the superficiality of your thinking.  You cannot escape from the weight of the politico-economic argument.  As soon as you break cover, it will have you.

Let’s dispose of your attempts to deny its power.

You write:

Anti-trust law?  A cure for galloping self-interest?  Well, I am not much concerned with such detail at this point.  But we can talk about some prior considerations.

... the “prior considerations” here being the mechanicity (habituation, absence) that characterises ordinary waking consciousness which you, GW, deliberately confuse with and re-present as “prior considerations”.  It is, I think, evident that you understand that the turn towards a politico-economic analysis kills your psychological worldview.  Your delusions have nothing better to say about my P-E analysis than this:

Nature pisses on your Iron Law, and rusts it away.

... which is as clear statement of a complete and untroubled ignorance as one might wish for.  So ... try to understand.  If you have no theory of human administration you cannot explain anything properly.  But if you do have a theory of civilizational evolution everything can be, if not explained, at least fitted into the scheme of things.  Hence, my P-E analysis has something to say about your delusions, and that is why you are under attack from me, and not the other way around.

Thus (to quote myself):

“And you have, in consequence of your evident ignorance of such considerations, already brushed past introduction of specifics of the discussion - with regard to the vital implications of the intrinsic limitations of anti-trust and related law for dealing with politico-economic collusion such as occasions the civil wars and revolutions immediately under discussion.”

So which is likely to offer the deeper epiphany, GW: a reading of the war of aggression as a manifestation of the human condition or as a product of political economy?  Is the struggle for resources rooted in the struggle for self-interest and, ultimately, in the struggle for genetic interests and for life itself, or is it an upshot of “intrinsic limitations to antitrust and related law of dealing with politico-economic collusion”?

The deeper epiphany arises, of course, from the complexities of the latter as they subsume the simplicities of the former - for those not of simple mind.  For those of simple mind, rather, only the simplicities evoke an epiphany (defined as: “a sudden,  intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something,  usually initiated by some simple,  homely,  or commonplace occurrence or experience.”) 

“you seem to naively imagine that you have found some sort of transcendent solution in “interirorisation” - whereas yours is merely a formula for another slaughter of a pacified population at the hands of “non-self-aware” aggressors.”

Did I mention pacifism?  No.  Only you mentioned that.  A dishonest way to debate.  But let’s leave that aside.  Answer this.  Why do you suppose a people who know why they must fight will be less willing to do so than a people who are merely told why they must fight?

Because you are preaching a variety of conscientious objection and thus a form of pacifism.

You show your non-seriousness as a human being.  It does not matter how many books you have read or how many essays you have crafted.  If you cannot find even the trailing hooks of meaning in the words of someone who is speaking of real life, your own life will always be shallow and unsatisfying, and passed in darkness.

I see that I now have a primary resource for proletarian wisdom.

“If you would be relevant to the discussion, you must, rather, couch your “critique of human consciousness” in terms of its implication for “Rightly Understood Interest”.  Otherwise you are merely blathering.”

You really are insufferable.

Though not nearly to the degree that instruction productive of your sophistication in these matters evidently would be.

Who do you think you are,  declaring the parameters for acceptability of matters of which you are sublimely ignorant yourself?  The model of human consciousness you so disparage locks you, Neo, away in a darkened, windowless, airless room, not a new-god with a handlebar moustache but a bundle of uncontrollable nervous twitches and an unedifying dependency on intellectual self-validation ... a weak, hollow, easily ignored nonentity.  This is unconscious Neo.  It is nothing, as we all are nothing.  For not you nor I nor any man is more than that, and if any of us want to rise to an understanding of the world, we must rise first to an understanding of that, or there will be only the hollow sound of our own echoing voices and, in the case of arguers like you and I, the even more hollow sound of our respective rejections of one another in the blind belief that we alone are right, we alone are relevant.

GW, you are welcome to being nothing, and I find you well along.  And thanks for the reminder of what a communal Sunday Morning wallow in the slippery mud bath of slave morality feels like.

This model of human consciousness offers some observations on an individual and collective arising from that sad and true condition, and if it has no value to another soul in this world, then it is not because it is untrue, but because I have failed in my efforts to communicate it.  If I am failing with you, I cannot blame myself too much.  For you are a most determined donkey of a man.

Which reminds me to once again therapeutically prescribe Battle for the Mind - with particular attention to the experiments in the stress-related conversion and conviction of canine personalities.


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Posted by Notus Wind on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 02:22 | #

NN,

I don’t mean to interrupt the exchange between you and GW but I have a few more questions.

For the chains, indeed, do not “exist” - but nevertheless have reality as imaginative representations thereof that are subject to probation as prescriptions for or limitations on life and the attainment of demi-divinity.

How do you know this with such certainty?

Thus we have the history of human civilization as we find it all around the world, past and present - with organized minorities in control - and not under the control - of disorganized majorities, according to the Iron Law of Oligarchy.

Granted, the great majority of people live their lives while an organized minority manages the political apparatus, that much is obvious.  But how should this organized minority come to be?  Should it arise on its own or should it be determined via heredity, elections, paper tests, man to man single combat, or something else?  What does your knowledge of political-economy reveal on this matter.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 02:46 | #

Notus,

I don’t mean to interrupt the exchange between you and GW but I have a few more questions.

“For the chains, indeed, do not “exist” - but nevertheless have reality as imaginative representations thereof that are subject to probation as prescriptions for or limitations on life and the attainment of demi-divinity.”

How do you know this with such certainty?

Because the burden of the affirmative demonstration has not been born with success.

“Thus we have the history of human civilization as we find it all around the world, past and present - with organized minorities in control - and not under the control - of disorganized majorities, according to the Iron Law of Oligarchy.”

Granted, the great majority of people live their lives while an organized minority manages the political apparatus, that much is obvious.  But how should this organized minority come to be?  Should it arise on its own or should it be determined via heredity, elections, paper tests, man to man single combat, or something else?  What does your knowledge of political-economy reveal on this matter.

We already have the “organized minority” of this day in our cultural evolution: the military of Greater Judea.

Our only hope is for another Napoleonic Advent, but I will concede that such a development is about as likely as would be the realization of the traditional variety of Parousian expectation.


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Posted by Al Ross on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 05:50 | #

Captain, one influential Englishman might have found more common ground with Hermann Goering than we might have thought, viz., Robert Baden - Powell. The Scout Movement founder’s diary for 1939, which was heavily mined by his biographer, Tim Jeal, reads as follows :

“Lay up all day. Read Mein Kampf. A wonderful book, with good ideas on education, health, propaganda etc..”


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Posted by Grimoire on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 07:46 | #

Much brainpower was devoted through the 1920s and 1930s to working out satisfactory answers to these kinds of questions — answers that would leave intact the essential Marxist critique of capitalist society and the even more essential (one cannot help thinking) dream of a New Jerusalem populated by New Men.
Obviously some sort of feedback loop was present and had somehow been missed by Marx. The culture of bourgeois society might be a flimsy and malleable “superstructure,” but once in place it worked on the minds of the proletariat somehow, giving them “false consciousness,” a notion already found in an embryonic form in the works of Engels. Instead of being a marionette who, once his economic interest had been pointed out to him, “could be depended on to pursue it ruthlessly,” the proletarian became, in the Western Marxism that developed through the middle decades of the 20th century, a dumb marionette helplessly lost in illusions foisted on him by bourgeois culture.


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Posted by Wandrin on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:09 | #

Individuals need groups to survive. Groups need glue to survive.

Nitchys don’t have any glue.

Most groups, the glue is reciprocity. Even where one group is physically dominating another group as a ruling elite that dominating group requires internal reciprocity to remain cohesive.

jews have an interesting and unique psychology. It is a mixture of extreme arrogance and extreme paranoia. They can get away with the extremely misanthropic and non-reciprocating arrogance because the extreme paranoia acts as the glue.

Nitchy’s got no glue.

For those who think religion and / or Christianity is a fundamentally bad thing i can see the value of Nitchy as a battering ram against religion but it has no political value beyond that if it doesn’t have any glue.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:53 | #

Even where one group is physically dominating another group as a ruling elite that dominating group requires internal reciprocity to remain cohesive.

Taken from the comment section of LAW, ETHICS, MORALITY:

“3) From the logic and history of the administration of human affairs comes recognition (in the Iron Law of Oligarchy) that ordered power in the context of large populations will necessarily rest in the hands of, at most, a few hundred influential families in time of peace, and but a few lieutenants of an autocrat in time of war. Thus oligarchy is the universal form of government experienced by populous humanity, whether masked by universal franchise democracy or paraded by autocratic tyranny. The *unity* of the oligarchs amongst themselves is synonymous with their power - thus merely formal, contractual relations do not provide sufficient bond for this purpose. Ties of strong sentiment implicit in shared ideology, theology, or ancestry are indispensable at the summit of administrative power, for no explicit formula or law of “rightly understood interest” holds merit at this level of cooperation.”

And from BGE:

“260. In a tour through the many finer and coarser moralities which have hitherto prevailed or still prevail on the earth, I found certain traits recurring regularly together, and connected with one another, until finally two primary types revealed themselves to me, and a radical distinction was brought to light. There is MASTER-MORALITY and SLAVE-MORALITY,—I would at once add, however, that in all higher and mixed civilizations, there are also attempts at the reconciliation of the two moralities, but one finds still oftener the confusion and mutual misunderstanding of them, indeed sometimes their close juxtaposition—even in the same man, within one soul. The distinctions of moral values have either originated in a ruling caste, pleasantly conscious of being different from the ruled—or among the ruled class, the slaves and dependents of all sorts. In the first case, when it is the rulers who determine the conception “good,” it is the exalted, proud disposition which is regarded as the distinguishing feature, and that which determines the order of rank. The noble type of man separates from himself the beings in whom the opposite of this exalted, proud disposition displays itself he despises them. Let it at once be noted that in this first kind of morality the antithesis “good” and “bad” means practically the same as “noble” and “despicable”,—the antithesis “good” and “EVIL” is of a different origin. The cowardly, the timid, the insignificant, and those thinking merely of narrow utility are despised; moreover, also, the distrustful, with their constrained glances, the self- abasing, the dog-like kind of men who let themselves be abused, the mendicant flatterers, and above all the liars:—it is a fundamental belief of all aristocrats that the common people are untruthful. “We truthful ones”—the nobility in ancient Greece called themselves. It is obvious that everywhere the designations of moral value were at first applied to MEN; and were only derivatively and at a later period applied to ACTIONS; it is a gross mistake, therefore, when historians of morals start with questions like, “Why have sympathetic actions been praised?” The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment: “What is injurious to me is injurious in itself;” he knows that it is he himself only who confers honour on things; he is a CREATOR OF VALUES. He honours whatever he recognizes in himself: such morality equals self-glorification. In the foreground there is the feeling of plenitude, of power, which seeks to overflow, the happiness of high tension, the consciousness of a wealth which would fain give and bestow:—the noble man also helps the unfortunate, but not—or scarcely—out of pity, but rather from an impulse generated by the super-abundance of power. The noble man honours in himself the powerful one, him also who has power over himself, who knows how to speak and how to keep silence, who takes pleasure in subjecting himself to severity and hardness, and has reverence for all that is severe and hard. “Wotan placed a hard heart in my breast,” says an old Scandinavian Saga: it is thus rightly expressed from the soul of a proud Viking. Such a type of man is even proud of not being made for sympathy; the hero of the Saga therefore adds warningly: “He who has not a hard heart when young, will never have one.” The noble and brave who think thus are the furthest removed from the morality which sees precisely in sympathy, or in acting for the good of others, or in DESINTERESSEMENT, the characteristic of the moral; faith in oneself, pride in oneself, a radical enmity and irony towards “selflessness,” belong as definitely to noble morality, as do a careless scorn and precaution in presence of sympathy and the “warm heart.”—It is the powerful who KNOW how to honour, it is their art, their domain for invention. The profound reverence for age and for tradition—all law rests on this double reverence,—the belief and prejudice in favour of ancestors and unfavourable to newcomers, is typical in the morality of the powerful; and if, reversely, men of “modern ideas” believe almost instinctively in “progress” and the “future,” and are more and more lacking in respect for old age, the ignoble origin of these “ideas” has complacently betrayed itself thereby. A morality of the ruling class, however, is more especially foreign and irritating to present-day taste in the sternness of its principle that one has duties only to one’s equals; that one may act towards beings of a lower rank, towards all that is foreign, just as seems good to one, or “as the heart desires,” and in any case “beyond good and evil”: it is here that sympathy and similar sentiments can have a place. The ability and obligation to exercise prolonged gratitude and prolonged revenge—both only within the circle of equals,—artfulness in retaliation, RAFFINEMENT of the idea in friendship, a certain necessity to have enemies (as outlets for the emotions of envy, quarrelsomeness, arrogance—in fact, in order to be a good FRIEND): all these are typical characteristics of the noble morality, which, as has been pointed out, is not the morality of “modern ideas,” and is therefore at present difficult to realize, and also to unearth and disclose.—It is otherwise with the second type of morality, SLAVE-MORALITY. Supposing that the abused, the oppressed, the suffering, the unemancipated, the weary, and those uncertain of themselves should moralize, what will be the common element in their moral estimates? Probably a pessimistic suspicion with regard to the entire situation of man will find expression, perhaps a condemnation of man, together with his situation. The slave has an unfavourable eye for the virtues of the powerful; he has a skepticism and distrust, a REFINEMENT of distrust of everything “good” that is there honoured—he would fain persuade himself that the very happiness there is not genuine. On the other hand, THOSE qualities which serve to alleviate the existence of sufferers are brought into prominence and flooded with light; it is here that sympathy, the kind, helping hand, the warm heart, patience, diligence, humility, and friendliness attain to honour; for here these are the most useful qualities, and almost the only means of supporting the burden of existence. Slave-morality is essentially the morality of utility. Here is the seat of the origin of the famous antithesis “good” and “evil”:—power and dangerousness are assumed to reside in the evil, a certain dreadfulness, subtlety, and strength, which do not admit of being despised. According to slave-morality, therefore, the “evil” man arouses fear; according to master-morality, it is precisely the “good” man who arouses fear and seeks to arouse it, while the bad man is regarded as the despicable being. The contrast attains its maximum when, in accordance with the logical consequences of slave-morality, a shade of depreciation—it may be slight and well-intentioned—at last attaches itself to the “good” man of this morality; because, according to the servile mode of thought, the good man must in any case be the SAFE man: he is good-natured, easily deceived, perhaps a little stupid, un bonhomme. Everywhere that slave- morality gains the ascendancy, language shows a tendency to approximate the significations of the words “good” and “stupid.”- -A last fundamental difference: the desire for FREEDOM, the instinct for happiness and the refinements of the feeling of liberty belong as necessarily to slave-morals and morality, as artifice and enthusiasm in reverence and devotion are the regular symptoms of an aristocratic mode of thinking and estimating.—Hence we can understand without further detail why love AS A PASSION—it is our European specialty—must absolutely be of noble origin; as is well known, its invention is due to the Provencal poet-cavaliers, those brilliant, ingenious men of the “gai saber,” to whom Europe owes so much, and almost owes itself.”


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Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 14:51 | #

Neo,

The seeming difference between us is that I am a student of human presence and you are a student of master morality.

The former sees slavery as a descriptor of the state of ordinary waking consciousness, in which the averred self is inauthentic.  By extension, “mastery” has no meaning until the self is present-to-being and authentic, and able to act in the world.

The student of master morality, however, makes no such distinctions but sweeps everything into his dramatic genus of “slave-morality”, which is the morality of intention (while master-morality is the morality of ends). 

The student of human presence, again, sees morality merely as evolved behaviours, and intention as the fulcrum of consciousness.  For ends he sees nothing beyond conscious agency itself.  The quality of consciousness, not the object of morality, is the key determinant, and the tidal mass of such consciousness is the determinant of its historical agency.

The student of master morality sees agency only in elitism, and simply does not respond to the idea that the elites and masses are united by and in the authenticity of self (ie, what passes for “glue” in Wandrin’s uniquely uncluttered terminology).  For the student of master morality there is division, not unity, and relations across the divide are ineluctably conditioned by the violence of a claimed Iron Law of Oligarchy.

The student of human presence points to the undoubted suzereignty of natural law, points to violent oligarchy as a pathology, and asks whether a society (or polity) attendant to the fundamental human norms could develop such problems without correctives kicking in.

The student of master morality hoarsely re-proclaims his masterly contempt for such slavish and a-historical expectations of deliverance, and announces his godhead.  A Caligula of the intellect, to understand darkness, is born among us.

And now the real difference between Neo and me can be discussed.  It is that he is a religious and I am not.  He is all caught up on the hooks of faith, to which his Nietzschian rebelliousness is only a sign of attachment.  In exoteric faith systems behaviours, beliefs, morals and goals define the lumpen totality, and committing to an archly different set of behaviours, beliefs, morals and goals in no way signals freedom from it.  Logic does not work the exoteric animal free.  Being a bad, bad boy with big, bad morals does not work him free.  Nothing does.  His is a life-long condition - as is the absence of faith, of course.  But he rarely knows it.


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Posted by MOB on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 14:54 | #

It was a review of Crimes and Mercies, posted by a subscriber to the first list I was subscribed to on the Internet 13 years ago—an unauthorized Pat Buchanan list—that first engaged my passion in the struggle against Jews; before that opened the door, I had been ignorant of all that had gone on during the periods of the first and second World War, and in particular, in Germany.

http://nationalvanguard.org/2010/11/postwar-mass-killings-of-germans-who-cares/

http://www.amazon.com/Crimes-Mercies-Civilians-Occupation-1944-1950/dp/0751522775

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bacque

Crimes and Mercies

In a subsequent book, Crimes And Mercies (1997), Bacque claimed that Allied policies (particularly Soviet policies) led to the premature deaths of 5.7 million German civilians, 2.5 million ethnic German refugees from Eastern Europe and 1.1 million German P.O.W.s due to Allied starvation and expulsion policies in the five years following World War II. The book also details the charity work conducted by the Allies, primarily Canada and the United States, crediting it with saving or improving the lives of up to 500 million people around the world in the post war period. This work was led by Herbert Hoover at the behest of President Truman, and by the Canadian Prime Minister, Mackenzie King, together with Norman Robertson and Mitchell Sharp. This was the largest relief program ever organized, and expressed the ideals of many of the allied combatants.

Crimes and Mercies met with far less hostility from historians, who acknowledge the deaths of hundreds of thousands of German soldiers and civilians held in Soviet captivity, and possibly up to two million civilians who died in the mass expulsions of Germans from East Prussia, eastern Brandenburg, Pomerania, western Poland, Silesia, the Sudetenland and Romania.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:14 | #

This is unconscious Neo.  It is nothing, as we all are nothing.  For not you nor I nor any man is more than that, and if any of us want to rise to an understanding of the world, we must rise first to an understanding of that, or there will be only the hollow sound of our own echoing voices and, in the case of arguers like you and I, the even more hollow sound of our respective rejections of one another in the blind belief that we alone are right, we alone are relevant.

So much irony in all this.

Were I charitable, GW, I might hope, for your sake, that you never awaken from your conversion - and your consequent conviction that your nonsense is other than delusional.

For, given this present state of your mind, we may accord you the laurel of “blind belief that we alone are right” - since there seems to be no communicable specification as to what is other than tritely “right” in your mind - and thus there is nothing here to assess in terms of the common coin of logic and evidence.

And by the same “token” (the “common coin of logic and evidence”) we must reckon that it is only myself, of present company, who is “relevant” as to the substantive matters being examined here.  But this is not to disparage your admirable performance as a foil for the illustration of these aspects of the present discussion.

So, for the sake of those who lurk and on-look, do not be dissuaded from persistence in your illustrative enterprise for fear that the weight and consequent stressful pressure of logic and evidence will prevail upon your mind (as did once the massive iron bar perilously held aloft your supine and resolute form on the weight bench), erasing and replacing the present and pleasant delusional caste of your emotional vistas.


368

Posted by Wandrin on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:17 | #

Ties of strong sentiment implicit in shared ideology, theology, or ancestry are indispensable at the summit of administrative power, for no explicit formula or law of “rightly understood interest” holds merit at this level of cooperation.”

Yes.

Among themselves Nitchys would need a “slave-morality” based at some level on reciprocity.


369

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:22 | #

Neo, do you believe Neo to be conscious of Neo?


370

Posted by Wandrin on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:23 | #

what passes for “glue” in Wandrin’s uniquely uncluttered terminology

Apologies. My education mostly involved avoiding getting stabbed smile


371

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:30 | #

The student of human presence points to the undoubted suzereignty of natural law,..

The prey breaks cover.

“Natural Law” is the heart of the fawn - we utterly emascerate it with a single round:

The identification of Judeo-European slave morality (referred to as “Christianity”) with morality per se was so universal in Nietzsche’s day, that one could, to a general audience, write sensibly of its rejection only as amorality or immorality, as seemingly Nietzsche had to do despite his implicit endorsement of master morality, regarding which little could be said.

For the rules by which the masters, the nobility, live have mostly to due with honor and etiquette, personal and familial - and may be codified in a reasonably consistent and complete corpus of prescriptions and proscriptions. There tends to be little debate among such a class of people as to the dictates of honor and proper behavior in any given situation.

But the most important rules by which the common folk live, when they are torn away from tribal roots, have mostly to do with property, personal and public - and cannot be codified in a complete and consistent corpus of rules and regulations. Thus, where there is not the pretense of the existence of such a corpus, the debate is perpetual as to how to organize and govern society beyond the tribal level, since there are no answers to the ancient questions as to “who guards the guardians” or how to arrange perpetually collusion-free commerce and special-interest-free policy without so contrarily burdening commerce and society with corruptible and inefficient bureaucracy and internal security as to be societally non-competitive in international commerce and war-making capability.

For example:

The term “rightly understood interest” is used, in the discussion of the logic of political economy, to characterize an aspect of the behavior of homo oeconomicus, the hypothetical rational actor or entity engaged in commercial or “market” activity. The following illustration of its meaning will show it to be a rather obvious concept — though it nevertheless can be seen to have devastating implications:

If, for example, several individuals periodically derive a minimal level of nutrition from a “pie” created for them by one or several of their number, from materials supplied by others of the same, the “raw” interest, so-to-speak, of each of them might well be to take the whole pie for himself. As there is only one pie at a time and multiple individuals to be satisfied, the raw interest of all cannot be realized at once in this regard. If any one or few of them deprive or deceive others in regard to a share of the pie, violence may ensue with possible damage to pie creation. If the creators of the pie are not suitably rewarded, pie production may diminish or cease — likewise with the supply of materials and the persons responsible therefor. The group is confronted with a multi-dimensional challenge in trying to develop a formula (Laissez-faire?/Command economy?/Mixed economy?/Socialism?/Corporatism?/Syndicalism?/Anarchism?/Social Credit?/Marxism?/Leninism?/Stalinism?/Maoism?/Fascism?/National Socialism?/etc.) for dividing the pie to at least the minimal satisfaction of all, while deterring misbehavior and motivating pie production. If such a formula is successfully achieved and basically adhered to, it may be said to serve the “rightly understood,” as opposed to the elementary “raw” interest, of each of the participant individuals.

This is all rather commonsensical and obvious, but, again, this reality has devastating consequences, when we “scale-up” this challenge to encompass the requirements for satisfaction of millions or billions of individuals. On this scale it is literally impossible, as suggested by the multiplicity of alternatives and lack of officlal clarity as to principles, to develop a formula for attending to the rightly understood interests of this number of advanced organisms confronting inescapably scarce resources. If prevarication does not serve to pacify the victims of inevitable deficiency, violence and death will be the frequent alternatives. Thus is humankind governed, according to the Iron Law of Oligarchy - whereby the rightly understood interest of an organized minority is, rather, in exploiting a disorganized majority - by none other than lies and violence, priests and warriors, as the record of human experience so richly reveals. Utopian hopes, measures toward a “New World Order,” even durable national stability, are thus without foundation, excluded by the logic and experience of political economy, at least until Jesus brings the Second Advent to town or the day those “mysterious material forces of production” finally turn up.

***

As said, a formula for meeting these challenges does not exist in other than public pretense (for example and especially as to the existence of “human rights,” the suitability of the moral Decalogue in this capacity, and the academic notion of a Platonic or etheric realm of legal principle). And this pretense and difficulty are particularly in evidence where indefinable considerations of equality/justice/fairness/freedom/liberty must be accommodated, as in the fatuous, but much exploited, impression that a coherent concept of universal, international “justice” exists such that “victims” of political or military events may be said to have “moral authority” and “rights” to “reparations” and that “guilt” must be imposed upon the so-called “criminals” involved. And yet another pernicious illusion prevails where public propaganda and popular ignorance sustain the idea that form-of-government (“democracy” versus “dictatorship”) is a matter of morality rather than a matter of mere utility.

Nevertheless, the fate of polities depends vitally upon the successful management of these irresolvable problems. To fail to manage the unmanageable is to instigate class war and to inspire international war, the latter often resorted to by polities ancient and modern in order to palliate the former development. But this is all in order in Nietzsche’s broad analysis of the nature of life - for life is exploitation - the feeding of one organism upon another. The exploitation of one class by another, and the subjugation of one people by another, is all according to the organic nature of society and its will to power and cannot be rectified by resort to intrinsically defective legal/ethical/moral dictates and enforcement:

“Consequently, only with the setting up of the law is there a ‘just’ and ‘unjust’ (and not, as Dühring will have it, from the time of the injurious action). To talk of just and unjust in themselves has no sense whatsoever; it’s obvious that in themselves harming, oppressing, exploiting, destroying cannot be ‘unjust,’ inasmuch as life essentially works that way, that is, in its basic functions it harms, oppresses, exploits, and destroys, and cannot be conceived at all without this character. We have to acknowledge something even more disturbing: the fact that from the highest biological standpoint, conditions of justice must always be only exceptional conditions, partial restrictions on the basic will to live, which is set on power; they are subordinate to the total purpose of this will as individual means, that is, as means to create larger units of power. A legal system conceived of as sovereign and universal, not as a means in the struggle of power complexes, but as a means against all struggles in general, something along the lines of Dühring’s communist cliché in which each will must be considered as equal to every will, that would be a principle hostile to life, a destroyer and dissolver of human beings, an assassination attempt on the future of human beings, a sign of exhaustion, a secret path to nothingness.—” (Genealogy II 11)


372

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:37 | #

Neo, I run a business during weekday working hours, and don’t always have time to read your ego-puffs.  Do you think you could possibly just make the point you want to, so I can address it.

And do please answer my question about the condition of your consciousness.


373

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:42 | #

“A legal system conceived of as sovereign and universal, not as a means in the struggle of power complexes, but as a means against all struggles in general, something along the lines of Dühring’s communist cliché in which each will must be considered as equal to every will, that would be a principle hostile to life, a destroyer and dissolver of human beings, an assassination attempt on the future of human beings, a sign of exhaustion, a secret path to nothingness.—” (Genealogy II 11)”

How presciently apropos of GW’s own delusions and conscientious objections:

The student of human presence points to the undoubted suzereignty of natural law,..

It is nothing, as we all are nothing.  For not you nor I nor any man is more than that, and if any of us want to rise to an understanding of the world, we must rise first to an understanding of that,...


374

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:55 | #

Neo,

You have not even understood, then, that my entire Weltanshauung is one “from nothing to something”?  Now I am more than ever doubting my own capacity to do justice to it.

To answer you, what you say could be said of our condition after fifteen hundred years of Christianity, three hundred years of liberalism, and sixty years of Jewish culture war.  I will consent to the good, in that bad non-Nietzschean sense, of any honest critique of our existential crisis.  But you seem to have missed the point that we cannot stay in this place, yet this place is in us and is us.  How, then, do we remove ourselves but by the understandings that I am seeking to introduce to you?


375

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:09 | #

Neo, I run a business during weekday working hours…

As do I.

...and don’t always have time to read your ego-puffs.

It is obvious that you have had little time for pertinent scholarship.

And you are being asked for precious little in the way of attention, given the gravity of the matter under consideration.

Do you think you could possibly just make the point you want to, so I can address it.

Why should I bother:

Nature pisses on your Iron Law, and rusts it away.

Anti-trust law?  A cure for galloping self-interest?  Well, I am not much concerned with such detail at this point.  But we can talk about some prior considerations.

I assume that others are more conscientious than your otherwise-occupied self, and so might appreciate a reasonably comprehensive summary directed to a point in dispute.

And I can say that my own life has not been one of economy of attention to these questions.

And do please answer my question about the condition of your consciousness.

My consciousness is in a state of perfect calibration and equilibrium and is thus sensitive to the atmospheric disorder attendant upon the introduction of vapors arising from the unswept stalls of the intellect.


376

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:13 | #

My consciousness is in a state of perfect calibration and equilibrium and is thus sensitive to the atmospheric disorder attendant upon the introduction of vapors arising from the unswept stalls of the intellect.

That is not really an answer to my question, as I am sure you know.  Here is the question again: do you believe Neo to be conscious of Neo?

Well, do you?  Is the condition of your consciousness self-consciousness?


377

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:24 | #

You have not even understood, then, that my entire Weltanshauung is one “from nothing to something”?  Now I am more than ever doubting my own capacity to do justice to it.

Requiem in Pace, GW.

You broke cover and have had your heart pulped.

To answer you, what you say could be said of our condition after fifteen hundred years of Christianity, three hundred years of liberalism, and sixty years of Jewish culture war.  I will consent to the good, in that bad non-Nietzschean sense, of any honest critique of our existential crisis.  But you seem to have missed the point that we cannot stay in this place, yet this place is in us and is us.  How, then, do we remove ourselves but by the understandings that I am seeking to introduce to you?

Thanks for asking.

BECOME SUPERHUMAN


378

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:33 | #

That is not really an answer to my question, as I am sure you know.

But that is what it deserves.


379

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:40 | #

Neo,

You have said nothing that is not religious.  Man cannot become more than Man.  It is not within the realm of the possible.  Your entire investment in Big N and the Iron Law is predicated on a falsehood.  But then so is all exoteric religion.

OK, the intellect is not a good valuational tool, and is easily taken in by the needy calls of personality.  Even so, you do represent a pretty spectacular case of self-delusion.

Here are the questions you have not answered.

1. Are you in a state of consciousness of self?

2. How can one respond to an existential crisis except by existential (ie, not religious) means?


380

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 17:05 | #

GW,

The fawn is dead - give it a decent burial.

This incoherent weeping and remonstration will not revive it.


381

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 17:16 | #

Now now, Neo, I will not allow you to escape our hospitality so easily.  You are going to answer me.  Look at the opportunity here, for heaven’s sake.  If you can just pass muster as a Superman, and if you can, therefore, demonstrate that religious conviction works on planet Earth - much to everyone’s surprise, I might add - you will have proved your case.  We will all recognise you as the elite leader you desire to be, and look no further for our salvation.

OK, if you can’t actually pull that off, and it’s evident that you are, in fact, an intellectual con-man with a line in white voodoo, it’s a bummer.  This thread could prove reputationally fatal.  Nobody is going to pay you any attention ever again.  But a big strong guy like you could handle that, I’m sure.

So ... let’s see you answer those two questions.  Please.  Here they are again, in case you have forgotten them already:

1. Are you in a state of consciousness of self?

2. How can one respond to an existential crisis except by existential (ie, not religious) means?


382

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 17:45 | #

Now now, GW, I will not allow you to filibuster you way out of the grave so easily.  You are hoping to revive the dead merely by reproducing its verbal representation on the screens before us.  You see your opportunity to convert and convict us, as once you were so exposed, by sheer willful persistence in this enterprise.  If you can just conceal your identity as a perfidious untermensch amidst the esoteric bullshit, and if you can, therefore, fool anyone into believing that your brand of religious conviction has any meaning on planet Earth - much to everyone’s surprise, I might add - you will nevertheless have no case, in substance, to offer the planet.  So we will all recognize you as the inapt and inattentive student that you evidently are, and look no further for our instruction.


383

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 18:01 | #

Neo,

The invitations have been made.  The table is set.  Dinner is in the oven.  The only question is: are you serving me to the hungry guests or am I serving you?

Please, answer my questions.  Then we will know.


384

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 18:53 | #

The iinvitations have been made.  The table is set.  Dinner is in the oven.  The only question is: are you serving me to the hungry guests or am I serving you?

Please, answer my questions.  Then we will know.

Sorry, GW, but I choose to decline your gracious offer to dine with you in the intellectual afterlife.

So, once again, RIP.

[BTW, is there any of your pissing on principles in the intellectual afterlife?  Do you get to have kidneys, a bladder, and a penis, so to speak?]


385

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 19:16 | #

The reason I ask, GW, is that we might dispose of the pretense that your “questions” might revive the cardiac-free corpse of your orientation by having another resident apply your own solvent thereto - if indeed one is so equipped in the intellectual afterlife.


386

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 21:23 | #

I’m afraid your unwillingness to lay claim to the estate of the overman - which must, after all, include consciousness of self - leaves you in mortal disarray.  Either you are the overman or the Superman or whatever, or you are not.  Either you are conscious or you are not.  Which is it?  I say you are not.  It seems you can not/will not say.

Neo, you cannot verbalise your way out of this.  You are on my ground now.  I have you as I said several posts ago I would.  Now ... will you debate honestly at this point, and by which honesty reclaim your moral stature even as your religious articles are revealed as untruths, or will you continue to make so so superior, painfully silly Superman noises while I fire more unanswerable questions at your soft underbelly?

Think quickly.  Honour or dishonour?  That is the only choice remaining to you.


387

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 22:30 | #

You are on my ground now.

I recognize this further delusion, GW.

I believe it was nicely dramatized in a recent film starring Anne Hathaway, Patrick Wilson, and Andre Braugher.

Check out Passengers for a clue as to where you are intellectually - and where I am not.


388

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 22:45 | #

Oh come now, did I not tell just you that you cannot dance your way out of this?

If you address my questions directly and without further obfuscation, we can quite quickly arrive at the real worth of your claims.  They will fall, but you will have reprieved your good name, which is a moral, not intellectual issue - yes, that morality!

If, on the other hand, you continue to avoid answering my questions nothing but disdain will attach to your thinking and to you personally.

So, are you the overman/Superman/master or not?  Are you in a state of consciousness of self or not?


389

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Wed, 10 Nov 2010 23:52 | #

It now seems, GW, that you are bringing out the worst in me, by Nietzschean standards of conduct.

For this is the second time that I have taken pity on you - and prescribed relief.

And I suspect that your contumaciousness in no way diminishes the severity of my transgression.

So I must be hard - and leave you hereafter to your own inadequate devices - your elaborate dishonesty in pretending to have pursued the discussion to a point of your own advantage most recent among them.

Thus might you serve as an object lesson and cautionary tale for those who may yet fall into the trap of delusional proletarian auto-conversion and impenetrable self-conviction.

Since you now further expose yourself as a low person, by persisting in a mendacious pretense of having brought the discussion around to your favor, despite its having been disposed of in substance - you have the advantage of me, lest I be soiled by continued association with your ludicrous imposture.

It appears , then, that we will need a token of honesty from you in order to proceed in a mature and dignified manner - and that token would be your concession that the heart of your orientation (“natural law’) has been shot out.  Short of that, I find that no question of your own honor can arise - for its absence - and further ridicule of your pathetic persistence would be unseemly, on my part.

Then it comes down to this:

The student of human presence points to the undoubted suzereignty of natural law,..

I have addressed this point at length to its utter obliteration - to the sound, in response, of crickets chirping in the night.

To my knowledge, GW, the crickets have not restored your position.  Nor would your pseudo-inquiries.

So, please provide us with a redemptive token of honesty, as specified.


390

Posted by Guessedworker on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 00:54 | #

Neo,

Very well, you will not gather up your courage and answer the questions that I put to you:

Are you the demi-god, if that is the Superman, if that is the master, the overman, the ... whatever?  If not why not?  And are you therefore blessed with the consciousness of same?

You see, Neo, if you are not this demiurge, this herald of the New Human Age, but just a man like any other, like me or Grimoire or Notus, say, your claim on superhuman agency reduces to posturing, doesn’t it?  Simple, empty tin-can posturing.  And nothing you have written or said in support of that posturing has any value in the real world.  You are a fantasist, an intellectual charlatan.  C’est la.

I know you can’t relish being exposed in this way.  But when you write of my “pretending to have pursued the discussion to a point of your own advantage”, you are right up to a point.  You have done it to yourself.  You came into a house where a significant tranche of opinion is for what is, but you ignored that and, thinking yourself in possession of the means to conquer everything, and supposing the worth of the people here as scarcely that of the Jews’ cattle, you presented yourself dishonestly.  It was a mistake, as I hope you have the humility to accept.  You made it inevitable that someone sometime would gut you like a dead fish.  It happens to have been me.  But you should know that before today I have dressed a thousand Neos for the pan.  You were not special.  You were not difficult.  You were merely more absurd than most.

And now we come to the moment of moral danger for you.  You have, of course, gone completely overboard for Big N’s “the noble, the strong, the powerful” in place of “the present, the conscious, the authentic” which actually describes the overman.  The real one, or the one that is real.  So you will not care that you have no reputation among us yoked oxen.  But that is your second mistake.  Because you chose not to answer bravely and spiritedly the questions I have put to you, you have betrayed your own morality and failed utterly by ours.  You have left yourself nothing, Neo.  Not even the last obfuscating brays that rattle around inside you head as you look for some remnant of self-defence.  Nothing.

Where you go from here is a problem, isn’t it?  Perhaps if you speak less you will not annoy people so much, and this unpleasant experience will not be repeated too often.  Or you could extend yourself a little to other people’s findings ... even show some interest in them.  Authentic interest, of course.  None of this fragile, obvious posturing.


391

Posted by Guessedworker on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 01:20 | #

Oh and that statement about my “pretending to have pursued the discussion to a point of your own advantage” isn’t true either.

Up to my post on November 09 at 10.33pm I was not interested in turning you over.  I was simply engaged in a rather annoying debate with you.  But by the time of the 10.33pm comment I had changed my mind, and I warned you that “You cannot escape from the weight of the psychological argument.  As soon as you break cover, it will have you.”  In my next post timed November 10, 01:51pm I focussed on you properly for the first time.  My next post, timed November 10, 02:22pm contained the first question, thus “Neo, do you believe Neo to be conscious of Neo?”

It didn’t take long really, did it?


392

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 04:28 | #

GW,

I’ve been through this before with “Globby the Clown,” over at the Phora.

I refer to a sustained and dishonest pretense - by my interlocutor - to no ultimate effect other than his own disgrace and the strong impression created by the demolition of his defense of historic falsehoods.

But I would have thought, however, that one of our own would not have descended such depths.

For, as Gudmund wrote of Daniel’s terminal remarks, “it’s Jewy”.

Which reinforces my recollection of Globby’s shameful performance.

Shameful, that is, had it been from the hand of someone not of the RODOH persuasion.

Perhaps your own shame is mitigated by having attended - admittedly mendaciously - to the defense of nothing of substance.  Or - since nothing of substance has been there involved - perhaps we should properly speak rather of an affirmation of nothing of substance.  It’s hard to tell.

One thing that is evident from the empty boasting characteristic of your latest rant, immediately above, is the ironic and comic loss of consciousness of one’s own portrayal of vindictive hysteria and schizoid detachment from reality.

So, take the time from your busy schedule, GW, to get a feel, from the Phora threads, as to how your antics appear to the gallery.

Also, we note that you are tardy in the provision of that redemptive token of your honesty, as is requisite, for the reasons earlier specified.

And yet again do I betray myself with comradely pity for you - as you threaten to outdo even the remarkably “conscious-less” Globby the Clown, in an outre display of mendacious pretense.


393

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 04:34 | #

“...descended to such depths.”


394

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 04:47 | #

You made it inevitable that someone sometime would gut you like a dead fish.  It happens to have been me.  But you should know that before today I have dressed a thousand Neos for the pan.

[See previous message where it mentions “vindictive hysteria” and “schizoid detachment from reality”]


395

Posted by Grimoire on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 05:31 | #

Gworker:
            Congratulations! Skilled argument proffering profound conviction based on ignorance and imposture, has proved invincible. Lay on MacDuff!


396

Posted by Grimoire on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 06:26 | #

NN & Gworker:
                    If one is asked a rational question, one is bound to deliver a rational answer. Anything less is the admittance one does not possess a rational argument.

Similarly if one asks a rational question, one is owed a rational answer. Less is forfeiture of the argument.

So it follows if one asks a perceptibly irrational question, the inquirer owes an explanation as to why the question is rational - before the inquired is bound to rational correspondence. A irrational question, does not deserve a rational correspondence.

A question such as “Neo, are you conscious of being Neo” does not appear within context a rational question.

Therefore Gwworker, if this is a rational question you owe NN an explanation as to why this question is rational, and you are entitled a rational answer. Or the argument is forfeited and by example the admission one does not possess a rational argument.

So dear Gworker, you owe an explanation as to why “Neo, are you conscious of being Neo” is a rational question. Less is the admission that your convictions are indefensible, or that you have none, thus argue irrationality over rationality.


397

Posted by Captainchaos on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:07 | #

The original point was the condemnation of the Nazis as immoral because of the alleged Slavocaust.

In that older thread, yes.

The contempt arose because of the allegedly planned extermination of Slavs for the furtherance of the well-being of the German people.

Contempt I would share with English uber-moralists if I any longer believed that to be true.  I no longer believe that to be true.  And neither do you.

The determination for whether the Germans, from a WN perspective, debased themselves lies here

You are not a White Nationalist, but a Nordicist.  Isn’t that right?

to date the evidence is not all that clear.

There is no Prussian blue residue on the walls of the alleged gas chambers which would certainly be present were hydrogen cyanide gas used to kill hundreds of thousands therein.  That, as far as I am concerned, is ballgame - the Holohoax lying dead on a cold slab.  If the Krauts spared the Jews then it stands to reason that they also would have refrained from exterminating Slavs, don’t it?

What morale boost was garnered by Ruby Ridge?

You must be kidding me, if not yourself.  Ruby Ridge is a cardinal event in the government’s efforts to squelch separatist inclinations in Whites.  For the men of the government’s security forces, who identify with its mission, there is the feeling of triumph for having kicked the asses of all those Wackos in Waco who dared raise a hand against them.  However, this is tempered by the fact that initially those separatist kooks held their own.  Recall the scene of that G-Man rolling off the roof with bullets ripping through the wall after him.  I assure you that has not been forgotten.

The government does not care about the suffering of the security force as long as it serves their agenda which is motivated by self-interest.

 

The men of the security forces do care about their own asses, and they have unions as well as self-interest.  Or don’t they?

Lobby group self-interest.

The “government” and the lobby groups of plutocrats.  Pretty well a distinction without a difference.

The selfish gene.

Genes are not sentient and cannot therefore experience interests.

They probably don’t experience it at all.

The genes?  We agree, obviously.  People do not experience affinity for one another, nor is this more common the more genetically similar they are?  LOL!

How then is black flight from the ‘hood explained?

How then is black flight to suburbs populated by their co-ethnics once they have ‘made it’ explained?  Ethnocentric affinity.

The contention is that leading the German people to war was not founded in love of kind, but self-interest.

I suppose the fact that Hitler refused to sleep until the last bomber, incinerators of women and children, left German air space can be explained by Hitler’s overweening concern with “self-interest”.  Who needs sleep anyway, certainly not the self-interested.

No, more of a Gulliverian misanthrope.

Perhaps this explains your apparent blindness to interpersonal affinity.


398

Posted by Captainchaos on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:36 | #

Those English and American men who flew the planes and dropped the bombs which consumed a million German civilians in fire are certainly the immoral equivalents of the SS men who alleged dumped Zyklon B down wire mesh columns into “gas chambers”.  They debased themselves.

Churchill and Eden risked their sons in a war that needn’t have been fought by them.  Eden lost his.  They must have suffered “some sort of profound psychosis”.

Again I ask, What moral authority do Englishmen have to pronounce judgement on the “Krauts” given their own glaring moral failings?


399

Posted by Al Ross on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:59 | #

Churchill’s obnoxious son, Randolph, was widely hated by his contemporaries. When Randolph underwent surgery for a cancer which was found to be benign, the author, Evelyn Waugh, remarked :

“Typical, they identify the only part of Randolph which is non - malignant and then proceed to remove it”.


400

Posted by Captainchaos on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:03 | #

GW,

There is a reservoir of scientific research supporting the efficacy of mindful awareness as relates to cognitive-behavior therapy (CBT) of which you are perhaps unaware and could only be expected to bolster your “ontology project”.  It is essentially CBT you wish to perform on a mass scale to elicit racial consciousness, isn’t it?  Change the lemmings’ thinking, change their behavior; change the lemmings’ behavior, change their thinking.


401

Posted by Wandrin on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:07 | #

Captain Tampon on his divide and rule schtick again. The trouble with his particular version is that arguing with him would just add to the divide and rule effect.

I’ve given up trying to be diplomatic. You’re **** Captain Tampon and people like you are an obstacle to white survival.

If it wasn’t for people like you some kind of WN would have mainstreamed decades ago.


402

Posted by Captainchaos on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:32 | #

Wanda,

If I ever really decided to take the gloves off, believe you me, the English, Brit Canadians, and the half-English would know it.  I will not do that however as I have too great a respect for those here as the admirable people I believe them to be. 

That’s how Krauts are cut.

If it wasn’t for people like you some kind of WN would have mainstreamed decades ago.

Yup, let’s pay deference to the Holohoax which is absolutely associated with White ethnocentrism in the minds of the lemmings so at least we can bolster the Englishmen’s sense of their own moral superiority.  Brilliant!


403

Posted by Captainchaos on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:51 | #

I have a strong suspicion, Wandrone, that I may have found the avenue of investigation that will crack this “ontology project” nut wide open.  At least in the sense of its practical application, which is really the only reason to be pursuing it at all if not merely as egghead’s fodder.  That means the possibility of doing racialism the English way, and not the Kraut way (you know, with jackboots and “gangsterism”).  A sniff of gratitude on your part would not be inappropriate.


404

Posted by Captainchaos on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:59 | #

It has always pleased me to believe that there was something essentially good and true behind GW’s contentions behind their poetic exterior.  But I was wanting for real evidence.  I now have that.  So I’m going to put my shoulder behind that wheel.


405

Posted by Desmond Jones on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:15 | #

Contempt I would share with English uber-moralists if I any longer believed that to be true.  I no longer believe that to be true.  And neither do you.

The difference is faith and falsifiability. You, my friend, appear to one of the faithful.

You are not a White Nationalist, but a Nordicist.

Yes, but it does not change the point.

If the Krauts spared the Jews then it stands to reason that they also would have refrained from exterminating Slavs, don’t it?

Again it’s not about reason but about evidence.

For the men of the government’s security forces, who identify with its mission, there is the feeling of triumph for having kicked the asses of all those Wackos in Waco who dared raise a hand against them.

Except that is was a non-white that fired the shot at Ruby Ridge that killed Vicki Weaver. And it was the same non-white who allegedly fired the first shots at Waco. Moreover, how was Ruby Ridge a morale booster for white separatists?

The men of the security forces do care about their own asses, and they have unions as well as self-interest.

Probably, however, it does not change the initial assertion.

The “government” and the lobby groups of plutocrats.  Pretty well a distinction without a difference.

It depends on the lobby group. NRA?

Genes are not sentient and cannot therefore experience interests.

How then EGI ?

People do not experience affinity for one another, nor is this more common the more genetically similar they are?

You’re confusing genes and race. Remember, Rushton said that interracial marriage is the exception that proves the rule.

How then is black flight to suburbs populated by their co-ethnics once they have ‘made it’ explained?

Why flee at all if there is ethnocentric affinity?

I suppose the fact that Hitler refused to sleep until the last bomber, incinerators of women and children, left German air space can be explained by Hitler’s overweening concern with “self-interest”.

Why war at all if he knew, based upon his experience of WWI, that the English and their diaspora would resist him with all their power? Why, with this knowledge in hand, put good German women and children in harm’s way if love of kind was a motivator?

Perhaps this explains your apparent blindness to interpersonal affinity.

Maybe, but interpersonal affinity is not really the topic of discussion.

Those English and American men who flew the planes and dropped the bombs which consumed a million German civilians in fire are certainly the immoral equivalents of the SS men who alleged dumped Zyklon B down wire mesh columns into “gas chambers”.  They debased themselves.

If you believe both examples are supported by evidence, one is pre-meditated murder, the other is a reaction to pre-meditated murder.

Churchill and Eden risked their sons in a war that needn’t have been fought by them.  Eden lost his.  They must have suffered “some sort of profound psychosis”.

A profound psychosis yes if you believe Churchill and Eden were fighting for love of kind. However, Churchill, apparently, believed it was better to fight than be enslaved and apparently, according to polls so did most of the English people.


406

Posted by Guessedworker on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:41 | #

Yes, yes, Neo, it’s all hysteria, I’m sure.


407

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:58 | #

Grimoire,

So, dear Gworker, you owe an explanation as to why “Neo, are you conscious of being Neo” is a rational question. Less is the admission that your convictions are indefensible, or that you have none, thus argue irrationality over rationality.

Nicely formulated, G.

Also, I am concerned that GW’s most recent loss of composure is not for the best.

I am considering whether picking him up from the ground where he lies and dusting him off might redeem the situation.

So - what if I were to stipulate that he has, in some sense, prevailed in this encounter?

Do you think this measure would restore the authenticity, the presence, and the consciousness of our true overman, GW?


408

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 13:14 | #

Yes, yes, Neo, it’s all hysteria, I’m sure.

I would say that this much of it is:

But when you write of my “pretending to have pursued the discussion to a point of your own advantage”, you are right up to a point.

Oh, and that statement about my “pretending to have pursued the discussion to a point of your own advantage” isn’t true either.

Up to my post on November 09 at 10.33pm I was not interested in turning you over.  I was simply engaged in a rather annoying debate with you.  But by the time of the 10.33pm comment I had changed my mind, and I warned you that “You cannot escape from the weight of the psychological argument.  As soon as you break cover, it will have you.” In my next post timed November 10, 01:51pm I focused on you properly for the first time.  My next post, timed November 10, 02:22pm contained the first question, thus “Neo, do you believe Neo to be conscious of Neo?”

Which prompts me to ask the obvious question.


409

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 14:09 | #

It has always pleased me to believe that there was something essentially good and true behind GW’s contentions behind their poetic exterior.  But I was wanting for real evidence.  I now have that.  So I’m going to put my shoulder behind that wheel.

How so, Captain?

Have you likewise devised a magic incantation for us?

(GW has one with which he has gutted and fried a thousand fish!)


410

Posted by Guessedworker on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 14:17 | #

CC,

Thanks, I read the wiki page for CBT.  This is new to me, and I have an open mind.  There is some resonance.  Here, for example:

One etiological theory of depression is Aaron Beck’s cognitive theory of depression. His theory states that depressed people think the way they do because their thinking is biased towards negative interpretations. According to this theory, depressed people acquire a negative schema of the world in childhood and adolescence as an effect of stressful life events. When the person with such schemata encounters a situation that in some way resembles the conditions in which the original schema was learned, the negative schemata of the person are activated.[39]

Beck also described a negative cognitive triad, made up of the negative schemata and cognitive biases of the person; Beck theorized that depressed individuals make negative evaluations of themselves, the world, and the future. Depressed people, according to this theory, have views such as, “I never do a good job”, “It is impossible to have a good day”, and “things will never get better.” A negative schema helps give rise to the cognitive bias, and the cognitive bias helps fuel the negative schema. This is the negative triad. Also, Beck proposed that depressed people often have the following cognitive biases: arbitrary inference, selective abstraction, over-generalization, magnification and minimization. These cognitive biases are quick to make negative, generalized, and personal inferences of the self, thus fueling the negative schema.

European-descended peoples have been utterly pathologised through the official adoption of Jewish sociological, psychological and historical thought-products.  But there is more besides: industrialisation and urbanisation doubtless left some marks, as did the hyper-individualism and secularism of liberalism, among others.  So there is a curative aspect.  There are hobgoblins which we must rid ourselves of.  Incidentally, I noticed one CBT adherent’s remark on the wiki page to the effect that “if you get rid of the symptoms, you get rid of the neurosis”.

Before CBT there was Daseinanalysis, the most Heideggerian form of which was championed by Medard Boss:

http://mythosandlogos.com/Boss.html

You might find this site on Daseinanalysis an interesting read, too:

http://www.daseinsanalyse.com/ifda/daseinsanalysis.html

For example:

Modern scientists, psychiatrists, psychologists, and doctors have mostly lost sight of the real importance of the obvious. They often overlook the richness of what can be immediately experienced, and concentrate on coming as soon as possible to an indirect, background-based, theoretical explanation of all they meet, thereby making their object of investigation calculable and thus also reproducible. In contrast to this is the phenomenological or existential analytical approach, which emphasizes a simple experience of the perceived phenomena. lt dwells on the very matter to be explored, always trying to grasp its meaning more explicitly. It is thus in an excellent way ‘objective’ or real. The right to a special position in the field of psychiatry, psychology, psychotherapy, and psychosomatics derives from the fact that all these sciences principally have to do with the human being. Less than anything else can human being be dissolved into calculable quantities. The priority of the existential analytical scientific method in these areas has its further basis in the nature of the neurotic, psychosomatic and psychotic way of being ill. This, in its essence, is primarily not founded on countable quantities, as would be the case if natural sciences dealt with them. lt can only be understood through insight in the incalculable qualities of the always different, disturbed, of key and unfree relationships, of the individual patient to the eventualities of his world.

Somewhere in all this there is some real value.  I would certainly publish useful ideas you can cull from it.


411

Posted by Guessedworker on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:25 | #

I suppose Grimoire, my malign friend who, for all his efforts to insult and degrade me, has not caused me to respond in kind, must have his answer.  So ...

Grim little brother,

In your haste to strike out on poor Neo’s behalf, you did not bother to quote the question I asked first accurately.  It was:

“Neo, do you believe Neo to be conscious of Neo?”

... which was then worked into:

So, are you the overman/Superman/master or not?  Are you in a state of consciousness of self or not?

The rationale which you, with your malign intent, will not see, is that “education in, and adherence to, fundamental [fundamental, remember] political and epistemological realities”, to quote from Neo’s introduction to his argument for Superhumanity, does not lead to, and is not the defining mark of, a more holistic and complete and superior state of humanity.  Neither does/is a morality of strength, nobility, etc.  Only consciousness of self is transformative in this manner, and then only fleetingly.

And before you claim otherwise, the Nietzschean superhuman can hardly be limited to a consciousness equal to or lower than that of the untermenschen.  How can consciousness not be a quality of a higher man?  Superhumans can be more arrogant and cruel, no doubt.  But they cannot be more shallow, more limited and remain a functioning elite, I think.

The problem, of course, is the original Nietzschean sin of the presumption of faith.  Big N failed to model Man fundamentally, which Neo compounds through his very lightweight, half-arsed emphasis on political economy.  IMO, the failure in both cases is occasioned by the ceasura of faith from the object of faith after the latter’s “death” has been pronounced.  Rushing off into a violently new morality and a new and so much more exclusive salvation does not in the slightest imply a freedom from faith, quite the contrary.  But faith always considers itself sufficient unto the day, and knows nothing out of itself of found reality.

So ... the lack of rational argument does not belong to me, Grim.  All this I explained in earlier comments.  You appear to have paid them no heed.


412

Posted by Notus Wind on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:15 | #

The irony of NN is that once you look behind his romantic exterior you find someone who is ostensibly technocratic, hence all the emphasis on political-economy.  It seems that he dismisses questions pertaining to metaphysics and identity (the latter including consciousness) out of a sense of pragmatism and without argument.

While there is much to recommend to this approach - it simplifies away some very difficult problems so that it can work on others - I can’t help but feel that it’s become dated.  Consider the following infamous quotation from Bertrand Russell (circa early 1950s):

Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rightly confined to the governing class and the populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated…education should aim at destroying free will, so that, after pupils have left school, they will be incapable…of acting or thinking otherwise than their schoolmasters would have wished.

Is this not what’s going on today.  Modern forms of propaganda that are just a century old have shifted the battlefield of political power to the mind’s of men in the “Democratic” West and what does the received political-economic wisdom of our ancestors have to say about it?  Of course, nothing!  Pluck any brilliant political philosopher from his home before the 20th century and place him in front of a television set and give him access to the internet and then ask him about the political significance of these things, who among us would deny that he would be left speechless.  This is all just a roundabout way of saying that some questions can no longer be ignored.


413

Posted by Notus Wind on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:51 | #

NN,

NN: Thus we have the history of human civilization as we find it all around the world, past and present - with organized minorities in control - and not under the control - of disorganized majorities, according to the Iron Law of Oligarchy.

Me: Granted, the great majority of people live their lives while an organized minority manages the political apparatus, that much is obvious.  But how should this organized minority come to be?  Should it arise on its own or should it be determined via heredity, elections, paper tests, man to man single combat, or something else?  What does your knowledge of political-economy reveal on this matter.

NN: We already have the “organized minority” of this day in our cultural evolution: the military of Greater Judea.  Our only hope is for another Napoleonic Advent, but I will concede that such a development is about as likely as would be the realization of the traditional variety of Parousian expectation.

Forgive my rudeness but I think my question, “How should this organized minority come to be?” went essentially unanswered.  Yes, the facts concerning our military and your hope for another Napoleonic Advent are that they are, but the question of how things should be remains.  Once again, at your leisure.


414

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:35 | #

Is there no way to synthesize the apparently dichotomous thinking above?

GW insists on the requisite of self awareness. NN insists on the necessity of becoming superhuman.

But what is a self-aware-self, if not superhuman?


415

Posted by Guessedworker on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:01 | #

Jimmy, you cannot synthesise truth and falsehood.  But the authentic in us is in relation to the inauthentic of higher to lower.


416

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:05 | #

Notus,

It seems that he [NN] dismisses questions pertaining to metaphysics and identity (the latter including consciousness) out of a sense of pragmatism and without argument.

For good reason.

For to do otherwise is to step through the Looking Glass into the Wonderland of delusional impostors and factual distortion.

A world wherein “Words mean what I say they mean”.

A world wherein one of the resident impostors is, of course, our own GW.

In contrast, the premise of a venue such as this - presumably representing and addressing the “real” world - must be the adoption of a common currency for communication to be effective in conveying other than emotive indicia.

This is why metaphysicists and their vapors are not consulted regarding any practical matter.  And why I must address such matters as I do, and as is done by productive students of the issues.

Thus, until mind-reading is perfected, the common currency of which I write can be none other than evidence and logic and exoteric definitions, to which all students will have access. 

Thus are excluded from this process those who are stress-converted and impenetrably convicted by other than a subsequent conversion experience - and for whom mere nonsense is then confused with profound insight - the outcome, alternatively, of a delusional “epiphany,” in contemplation of simplicities, as is sought for us by GW.

We have, as our example of the impermissible, GW’s notion that magic metaphysical words, phrases, and “questions” have elaborate significance such as to preempt or resolve complex issues which he can otherwise address only as a heckler, loaded-out with bags of piss and shit - or as a mere passer-by when out of ammo.

Yet he comically and ironically writes of the “real” and of what “is” and of the pertinent science as a “religion”.  So we must ask whether this is not recognizable as the familiar fruit of a thorough Christianization - of having been drawn through that Beatitudinal Wonderland mirror - where up is down, the foolish are wise, and the proletarian, in his magic world of proud and profound ignore-ance and distortion of perspective, is the “authentic” overman.

God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are. (1 Cor 1:27-28).

...speaking of the “nothing” that we and GW allegedly are - and out of which he proposes magically to bring “something”.


417

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:18 | #

Notus,

Forgive my rudeness but I think my question, “How should this organized minority come to be?” went essentially unanswered.  Yes, the facts concerning our military and your hope for another Napoleonic Advent are that they are, but the question of how things should be remains.  Once again, at your leisure.

Forgive the inadequacy of my response, but I have yet to understand what you mean by “should”.

I do not know how “this comes to be” other than by the processes of the past, with which I assume you are familiar.

Otherwise I can give you a World and Comparative history lesson.

Or I can devise a fiction for you that fails to take account of one or another vital consideration.

For, as it is, there is no realistic prospect of an alternative organized minority coming to be, in the present context.

So you are stuck with a choice of those already extant.  And with having to appeal thereto.


418

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:35 | #

Notus,

[GW:] Jimmy, you cannot synthesise truth and falsehood.  But the authentic in us is in relation to the inauthentic of higher to lower.

Notus, please explain how we are to decide as to the truth value of these two allegations - after you have explained the indisputable meaning of them.  And then render your decision as to their meaningful (i.e., non-tautological/non-definitional) truth value, please.


419

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:50 | #

Notus,

This is all just a roundabout way of saying that some questions can no longer be ignored.

Which are?


420

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:58 | #

Notus,

Please address the following in the manner specified above:

[GW:]...“education in, and adherence to, fundamental [fundamental, remember] political and epistemological realities”, to quote from Neo’s introduction to his argument for Superhumanity, does not lead to, and is not the defining mark of, a more holistic and complete and superior state of humanity.  Neither does/is a morality of strength, nobility, etc.  Only consciousness of self is transformative in this manner, and then only fleetingly.


421

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 23:07 | #

Notus,

[GW:] And before you [Grimoire] claim otherwise, the Nietzschean superhuman can hardly be limited to a consciousness equal to or lower than that of the untermenschen.  How can consciousness not be a quality of a higher man?  Superhumans can be more arrogant and cruel, no doubt.  But they cannot be more shallow, more limited and remain a functioning elite, I think.

Please step through the Glass for me.


422

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 23:18 | #

GW,

In the heat of argument, I have more than once imagined that by demonstrating the inadequacy of my opponents argument, I have thereby proven the adequacy of my own.

While it seems intuitive that truth and falsity cannot be synthesized, I suspect it is also an error to assume that they are mutually oppositional. While the opposite of truth is always a falsity, I’m not certain that one falsity cannot be the opposite of another.

As a humorous example, consider the following question:

Does demonstrating that NN is not superhuman, prove that you are the Überfisher?


423

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Thu, 11 Nov 2010 23:45 | #

It has begun.


424

Posted by Al Ross on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:48 | #

As one dog said to the other, “I used to have my own blog for a while but I decided to go back to just pointless, incessant barking”


425

Posted by Guessedworker on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 01:00 | #

Neo,

It is over.  Your vanity project is shot.  Nobody but you thought you are special anyway.  It was the illusion in the mirror you fashioned for your own self-regard.  In point of fact, you are a worthless braggart.  Somewhere in your heart you do know that really, don’t you?  You do know you have nothing of value to offer the white man in our time?  You do not know him.  You do not even like him.  You despise him his simplicity, his immediacy, his ordinariness.  Ah, but you are a beggar not a noble, weak not strong, cowardly not brave.  You hide from questioning behind a specious intellectual excuse.  You know you cannot survive it.  And you think this is some sort of beginning?  No, there will be no best of three, my friend.  If there were I would take the belt from your trousers and the nails from your boots.  You are not a street-fighter.  More logical for you to stay home.

Jimmy,

In the heat of argument

Heat?  There was no heat.  I’m English.

While it seems intuitive that truth and falsity cannot be synthesized ...

I bet you know exactly who said, “If you understand, things are just as they are.  If you do not understand, things are just as they are.”  What cannot be synthesised?

Does demonstrating that NN is not superhuman, prove that you are the Überfisher?

It is part of a larger story about the controlling influence of continental European idealism in racial nationalism in the Anglosphere.


426

Posted by Trainspotter on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 02:05 | #

At the risk of lowering the level of discourse, I’ll spell it out: Neo is a certain type of crank.  As best I can tell, he has always been such.  His younger version of crankery involved parading about with swastikas, his current version involves littering message boards, doing what he can to disrupt intelligent conversation.  He regularly misrepresents and distorts his opponent’s position, destroying the educational value (or pretty much any other value) of the exchange. 

Is he stupid?  No, he’s a bright guy, though he of course delights in calling other bright people stupid.  He should recognize that such tedious insults make him appear sophomoric, but as a crank, he just doesn’t get it. 

He is simply the kind of guy that needs to be contrarian, whether in costume or now in digital form.  His interest is clearly not in the continuity of our people; he doesn’t care a whit about that.  What he does care about is posing, posturing, and most of all, “Notice me! Notice me!”

In short, a crank, something that all fringe movements attract more than their fair share of.  I cannot take him seriously, and it amazes me that anyone else does.  I suspect that some may recognize his intelligence, but cannot see the crankery that deforms it. 

If we are to evolve into a real movement, we must learn to shun the cranks, liars and distorters.  I’ve recently adopted a very simple, but stringent rule: if I know for a fact that someone is engaging in misrepresentation or distortion, not simply a misunderstanding based in good faith, then that’s it.  No second chances; strict shunning.  On the internet, we really have no idea who we are dealing with, so protocols must be both simple and clear.


427

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 02:11 | #

GW,

You are undoubtedly right about a larger picture that is beyond my awareness, but in a spirit of friendliness I will nevertheless avail you of the limited impression that is available to me.

Something about your recent posts reminds me of a story I heard about an Amish gentleman who, after encountering another Amish couple, commented smugly to his wife: “We are plainer than they are.


428

Posted by Grimoire on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 02:29 | #

Gworker:

I suppose Grimoire, my malign friend who, for all his efforts to insult and degrade me, has not caused me to respond in kind, must have his answer.  So ...

My request above was not for answer; but that you argue rationally and therefore truthfully and honourably. This you refuse to do. The question remains, ‘why’ and how does this malign you?

Grim little brother,


I am amused by your constant reach for an imposturature.

I still remember passing off much of your elegy for Britain’s quiet and unassuming heroism, your paradigm of the self-actualized, exemplified by your relatives in Bomber command, as just more of GW’s unexamined and unreflective blabber….and thought little more of it…instead I was thinking of the dilemma of how to demonstrate to someone who refuses to think, cogitate….how to ‘think’ - how to follow antecedents back to their original impulse - but most importantly - vitally -  how this is impossible - without the first step - total commitment to honesty- with oneself, and with others who equally share the task.

I nodded off at some point, and awoke with a start - with the realization your paradigm of the idealized hero…. risked his life and honour to bomb, kill and mutilate women, children, the wounded, aged and infirm. To destroy the physical manifestation of Europe. Your idealized heroism was not to stand in the field of battle and live and die by the original conviction of casus belli - but to win his point by destroying the heritage of Europe and therefore Britain - thus hide the stain of their most extreme dishonour. I realized I do not know you at all.
You are not an elder in anything. You are a stunted individual who’s talent lies in playing to a galley instead of convincing through truth of argument.


Your imposturature of the mystic, possessor of hidden meanings…...is so badly rendered as to be an tragedy - a complete sabotage of your stated purpose. Artlessly stated and indefensible by anything other than a zombie defense. Perhaps your inspiration are the hero’s of the Hatian revolution.

The rationale which you, with your malign intent, will not see, is that “education in, and adherence to, fundamental [fundamental, remember] political and epistemological realities”, to quote from Neo’s introduction to his argument for Superhumanity, does not lead to, and is not the defining mark of, a more holistic and complete and superior state of humanity.  Neither does/is a morality of strength, nobility, etc.  Only consciousness of self is transformative in this manner, and then only fleetingly.

Your statement above claims a superior and holistic humanity may be based then.., on political and epistemological unreality’s. Breathtaking.

The problem, of course, is the original Nietzschean sin of the presumption of faith.  Big N failed to model Man fundamentally, which Neo compounds through his very lightweight, half-arsed emphasis on political economy.  IMO, the failure in both cases is occasioned by the ceasura of faith from the object of faith after the latter’s “death” has been pronounced.  Rushing off into a violently new morality and a new and so much more exclusive salvation does not in the slightest imply a freedom from faith, quite the contrary.  But faith always considers itself sufficient unto the day, and knows nothing out of itself of found reality.
So ... the lack of rational argument does not belong to me, Grim.  All this I explained in earlier comments.  You appear to have paid them no heed.

If we take the preceding paragraph as one example of your rational argument….you seem to think uninformed pronouncements of what so and so failed to do, coupled by what is an obvious attempt to cover up the fact you have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about -  is rational argument. Merely playing to the galley is rational argument.
So let us say you cannot argue rationally, and have no way of expressing this fact but babbling. And this should be taken into account.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 03:01 | #

Neo, it is over.  Your vanity project is shot.  Nobody but you thought you are special anyway.

GW, I’ve been wondering for whom you speak to such effect other than yourself.  To appearances, your venue is not populated with your epigones - it is not the intellectual slum that thus it would be - thank goodness.

It was the illusion in the mirror you fashioned for your own self-regard.  In point of fact, you are a worthless braggart.  Somewhere in your heart you do know that really, don’t you?

Given your lack of the extensive education and dedication involved in my own work - synthesized (lovely word) with your extensive brain damage - I can see where you are coming from.

You do know you have nothing of value to offer the white man in our time?

It’s highly probable that my efforts will come to nothing.  For there are too many of yourself out there - if not in here - you will be happy to hear.  The unfortunate implication of this is that the quality of White humanity, on balance, is below the center of gravity of long-sustainable civilization, from this point onward.  So look for a catastrophic inversion around mid-century upcoming.

You do not know him.

I know him too well.

You do not even like him.  You despise his simplicity, his immediacy, his ordinariness.

Someone just informed me that I didn’t know him.

Ah, but you are a beggar not a noble, weak not strong, cowardly not brave.

And you are a very very mean man.  If my mother were here she would take you by the ear and make you apologize for hurting my feelings.  And then she would make you lick your piss off of Michel’s Iron Law.  That would teach you good and plenty never to be mean again or piss in public on other people’s property.

You hide from questioning behind a specious intellectual excuse.

We will see how things prove out.

You know you cannot survive it.  And you think this is some sort of beginning?  No, there will be no best of three, my friend.  If there were, I would take the belt from your trousers and the nails from your boots.  You are not a street-fighter.  More logical for you to stay home.

You sound most formidable - may we hear further of your prowess?  Surely this cannot be all that can be said in this regard!  We have already heard tell of the thousand Neo’s that have known the slash and gash of your keen magic blade.  Please send us to bed with further tales of your mighty exploits, Lord Guest Worker.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 03:18 | #

At the risk of lowering the level of discourse, I’ll spell it out: Neo is a certain type of crank.  As best I can tell, he has always been such.  His younger version of crankery involved parading about with swastikas, his current version involves littering message boards, doing what he can to disrupt intelligent conversation.  He regularly misrepresents and distorts his opponent’s position, destroying the educational value (or pretty much any other value) of the exchange.

Is he stupid?  No, he’s a bright guy, though he of course delights in calling other bright people stupid.  He should recognize that such tedious insults make him appear sophomoric, but as a crank, he just doesn’t get it.

He is simply the kind of guy that needs to be contrarian, whether in costume or now in digital form.  His interest is clearly not in the continuity of our people; he doesn’t care a whit about that.  What he does care about is posing, posturing, and most of all, “Notice me! Notice me!”

In short, a crank, something that all fringe movements attract more than their fair share of.  I cannot take him seriously, and it amazes me that anyone else does.  I suspect that some may recognize his intelligence, but cannot see the crankery that deforms it.

If we are to evolve into a real movement, we must learn to shun the cranks, liars and distorters.  I’ve recently adopted a very simple, but stringent rule: if I know for a fact that someone is engaging in misrepresentation or distortion, not simply a misunderstanding based in good faith, then that’s it.  No second chances; strict shunning.  On the internet, we really have no idea who we are dealing with, so protocols must be both simple and clear.

T.,

How lovely of you to think of me!

I’ve been waiting for just such a gift as now you present.

The TARDS ON PARADE file, over at SUPERHUMAN, has been gathering dust for a while now.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 04:08 | #

BTW, T.,

You might be wondering about the basis upon which one qualifies for this form of recognition:

If you make a survey of the contents of the “file” you will notice a pattern that perhaps will not escape so little as even you bring to an analysis.

The lack of intellectual substance amidst the character assassination is the essential element - and I congratulate you on the excellence and extremity of your performance thus in having specified lies, distortions, and misrepresentations on my part, for substantiation of which which one looks in vain, here or elsewhere.

Shall we then distinguish your contribution, in view of this outstanding aspect, by pronouncing it no less than the essay of the “UberTard”?


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 04:32 | #

In any case, T., please continue in the same vein, of which exercise we now realize you are most capable and to which you are surely inclined - for the file needs regular refreshment, and we are in deficit in that regard, over at SUPERHUMAN.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 04:57 | #

Or perhaps, T., you will stand silent amidst your unsubstantiated allegations - and the attendant derogatory implications..


434

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 06:00 | #

I trust that you will, in that latter instance, do yourself no injury for having shunned yourself according to your principles.


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Posted by Follower of H. Wallace on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 09:37 | #

someone is engaging in misrepresentation or distortion, not simply a misunderstanding based in good faith

Fuck you, you cowardly laptop luftwaffe piece of shit trainspotter. Your effete horse shit makes me want to buy a six pack, get in the nearest Ford F-150, and go ride dirt roads. Now excuse me, I need to go get my daily dose of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity.


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Posted by Follower of H. Wallace on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 09:50 | #

I forgot to mention I’m about to go the gym. I already have massive arms and shoulders. I took up boxing in September. If I wanted to hit someone, I could knock out their teeth and crack their skull open easily.

I’ll have more once I get back from the gym and finish watching Hannity.


437

Posted by Guessedworker on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:54 | #

Grimoire,

Perhaps you are using “rationalism” as an excuse for not having to think about what I have said.  For example, I said that Neo, finally, is not arguing rationally but out of faith (viz-a-vis his NeoMorality and his NeoSalvation) and out of a quite tremendous and deceitful vanity, which Trainspotter has elucidated better than I.  These utterly compromise the rest of the venture, no matter how rationally he structures his subsequent thought.

What, then, would constitute a solid foundation for rational argument?  I said thinking fundamentally about Man and constructing a model of him which includes a theory of his consciousness would do so.  I contrasted this with thinking from set conclusions about the state of belief (Nietzsche) and political economy (Neo).

I am, then, trying to direct your attention to a proper place to begin.  Everything I write can be rooted back to this single gesture.  Everything you write in response can be interpreted as a pulling away, as an angry insistence on remaining on your own Ground Zero, whatever it is.

Now, I don’t often protest what you say because I think you are an interesting man with the right basic imperatives.  I can forgive a lot if I know my interlocutor wants what I want for the people we both love.  But I want to demonstrate to you the depths of your own hostility, Grim, and how it leads you into mendacity.

You spend some time berating me for mentioning my forebears on Notus’s West Texas thread.  You say this:

I nodded off at some point, and awoke with a start - with the realization your paradigm of the idealized hero…. risked his life and honour to bomb, kill and mutilate women, children, the wounded, aged and infirm. To destroy the physical manifestation of Europe. Your idealized heroism was not to stand in the field of battle and live and die by the original conviction of casus belli - but to win his point by destroying the heritage of Europe and therefore Britain - thus hide the stain of their most extreme dishonour ...

Now, this is what I actually wrote, in reply to Neo’s silly talking up of the Nietzschean values and barbarian appetites of his remoseless higher man.

I want to challenge your claim to a masculine teleology.  And because I am not an intellectual, and much less a scholar, I am going to do that despised thing which ordinary folk so often do, and rely on a couple of personal anecdotes.

It happens that in 1944 my father was an RAF bomber pilot.  He was twenty-two.  He flew Lancasters over Germany and the occupied territories.  He got shot up but never down, caught an imploding windscreen in his face one time, had three operations on his eyes without the benefit of anaesthetic, and went back to the Squadron six weeks later and completed his tour.  He was one of the lucky 50%.

His father had a more remarkable war.  He served with the BEF from 1916 as a Medical Orderly.  He was one of those guys who went out to the injured and dying.  He also survived.

Neither of these men regarded themselves as heroes then or after.  Or barbarians or warriors or men of prey.  They were lovers.  They loved and served their people, and they looked after their mates.  And though they saw heroism about them, and though they knew they might have to sacrifice themselves in the course of their duty - something hundreds of bomber pilots did as they held their stricken kites steady for the crew to bale out - yet they never needed a truckload of palingenesis pumped into the scrotum to go out and get the job done.

They would have despised your nonsense.  They would have told you that they never met a man who fitted your description.  They would have said that, on the contrary, heroism lies in the humble and the unassuming.

This is not an idealisation.  This is a brief portrait from life of two men I have known well, one of whom is still alive.  It does not contain any positive value judgement of the free-fall bomb or of battlefield medicine.  Its purpose is solely and precisely to put an end to the cruelty-porn that Neo was indulging in but, wierdly, you accuse me of!  Do you not see how your hostility drags you into self-deception?

Your statement above claims a superior and holistic humanity may be based then.., on political and epistemological unreality’s

My statement claims the exact opposite, for pete’s sake.  It claims that “epistemological unreality”, as you put it, is the basis of our condition now.  Why do I have to point this out to you?  Is it not already obvious?  CC gets it.  Jimmy Marr gets it.  So it can’t be that mystically nebulous, can it?  You just don’t want to get it.  You are too wrapped up in your own private battle with me to see it.  Stand down.  Be constructive.


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Posted by Trainspotter on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:52 | #

Neo: “Or perhaps, T., you will stand silent amidst your unsubstantiated allegations - and the attendant derogatory implications.”

Exactly which “unsubstantiated” allegation should I withdraw?  That you are a bright guy?  I suppose I should defer to your wishes. 

I’ve not made up facts about you, nor have I attributed to you positions that you do not hold.  I have not misrepresented you in any way, and it is telling that you do not dispute a single, specific point that I made.  This is because what I wrote is true, and you know this perfectly well.  But, at the end of the day, I offered my own conclusion about you based on what I have seen of your behavior.  I did not offer a mathematical proof, and it is entirely up to the reader to determine whether my conclusion makes sense in light of their own observations.  There is really nothing more to it. 
 
You do seem to take issue with my non-specific, generalized claim that you misreprsesent your opponent’s position.  This has been my experience with you.  Back when I took the time to debate you, I complained about it again and again.  I realized that such complaints were to no avail, and simply stopped bothering with you.  It was my position then, as it is my position now, that your behavior destroyed the intellectual value of the the thread, which is why I began to ignore you.  But that was some time ago, and no, I don’t have any intention of digging up the old threads, if they still exist at all.  So my generalized claim, while true, is perhaps a bit unfair in that I am not willing to document it.

So I will say this to any reader, not that it really needs saying: ignore the generalized claim, and decide for yourself whether, in your personal observations and experience, Neo misrepresents or distorts his opponent’s position.  Fair enough, Neo?

As for lies of a personal nature, or making up falsehoods out of whole cloth, I did not accuse you of this.  I think my post made it clear that I was referring to a broader phenomenon of liars and scum that infest the WN scene, just as they infest all political scenes - but with fringe movements getting more than their fair share.  My conclusion about you is clear: you are a crank, not a pathological liar.  As mentioned above, it is certainly my view that you distort and misrepresent, but how much of this is due to your crankish “not getting it,” or compulsive need to be contrarian, and how much is intentional, I have no idea.  I suspect far more of the former than the latter, but that is mere, well, suspicion.   

Again, each man can decide for himself whether my conclusions about you fit the bill.  If I claim that someone is a royal prick, but in the personal experience of my audience, the person in question is regarded as a good and decent man, then how much water would my claim carry?  Obviously, not much. 

So you have nothing to worry about if my observations and experience with you do not correspond to that of others, and since you do not seem to take issue with any specific claim that I made, what more is there to discuss?


439

Posted by Wandrin on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:27 | #

The TARDS ON PARADE file, over at SUPERHUMAN, has been gathering dust for a while now.

Typed your url wrong, souperman.


440

Posted by Trainspotter on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:46 | #

By the by, funny comments from Follower. 

Also, in what truly is a grand achievement in the Alice In Wonderland Department, one cannot help but appreciate the supreme irony of a man who resents being called a crank, then expresses said resentment on his personal blog, entitled…wait for it…Superhuman.

Yes, that’s right, Superhuman.

Neo, and I’m not making a claim here because I don’t remember to a certainty, but didn’t you once claim to be a “superman?” I’m pretty sure that you did, but feel free to disabuse me of that misconception in the unlikely event that I’m in error. 

One thing is for certain: there is no crankishness involved here, no sir! 

LOL! 

Life is indeed stranger than fiction.  Perhaps we should think about going into comedy, I mean, the skits will practically write themselves.


441

Posted by Al Ross on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:24 | #

If the higher man equates to membership of the aristocracy, then the German higher men of the 1930s and 1940s were severely lacking. This is because Nazism was, from beginning to end, a populist grassroots movement, and many German aristocrats were opposed to the involvement of the common people in politics as a matter of principle.

The Nazis held mass rallies and recruited ordinary Germans into paramilitary organisations like the SA and the SS while many German noblemen hated the idea of mass rallies and probably mass anything for that matter.

Also the German aristocracy were genuinely concerned about the fact that the Nazi paramilitary organisations did not recruit their officers from the ranks of the nobles, as the German army had traditionally done.

In fact, members of the aristocracy were over - represented in plots to kill or overthrow the popular Nazi leader.


442

Posted by Guessedworker on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:08 | #

Jimmy,

Something about your recent posts reminds me of a story I heard about an Amish gentleman who, after encountering another Amish couple, commented smugly to his wife: ”We are plainer than they are.”

If you know of a way of doing this job without opening oneself to criticism, please tell.  In the end, I think, one just has to accept that, outliers aside (not to mention outright liars), people will think what they think of you and say what they say, and there is very little one can or perhaps should do to change that.


443

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:02 | #

Neo: “Or perhaps, T., you will stand silent amidst your unsubstantiated allegations - and the attendant derogatory implications.”

Exactly which “unsubstantiated” allegation should I withdraw?

It should come to you upon a careful re-reading of the fourth from my last message.

[What was I saying earlier about “...so little as even you bring to an analysis”?  Evidently I overestimated you.]

I’ve not made up facts about you, nor have I attributed to you positions that you do not hold.

You have performed as I have not: “lying,” “distorting,” and “misrepresenting” in so writing of my participation.

I have not misrepresented you in any way, and it is telling that you do not dispute a single, specific point that I made.

Precisely because you made none of substance - and you now further prevaricate by suggesting that you did.  Rather, you made allegations that you now disingenuously distinguish as “generalized” and to which I can only respond as I did - by demanding substantiation and so have the “specifics” to which, at that latter point, I would have something to respond.

...it is entirely up to the reader to determine whether my conclusion makes sense in light of their own observations.

So now you bring the appeal to prejudice rather than to (absent) facts.  Thus you expose yourself.  And you realize that you have trapped yourself - out of which trap you hope to escape with further misbehavior.

You do seem to take issue with my non-specific, generalized claim that you misrepresent your opponent’s position.

So your dishonesty is to be explained by making the non-existent distinction, already examined.  You are again (implicitly) pretending that you made “specific” allegations (where you were accused of “unsubstantiated” allegations without specification that they were other than general) and now artfully concede, rather, a “generalized” allegation on your part.  And so you have delayed, by obfuscation, the inevitable concession that there is an allegation to be withdrawn.  This is a (characteristically) disgraceful performance, T.

This has been my experience with you.  Back when I took the time to debate you, I complained about it again and again.  I realized that such complaints were to no avail, and simply stopped bothering with you.

Yes, I recall your humiliation on that occasion when you likewise tried to weasel your way out of another error and false accusation (as you are trying to back-pedal now) - and I realize that your present performance springs from having endured that correction and from failing to take that lesson like a man.

So I will say this to any reader, not that it really needs saying: ignore the generalized claim, and decide for yourself whether, in your personal observations and experience, Neo misrepresents or distorts his opponent’s position.  Fair enough, Neo?

So you appeal to the Court of opinion to overlook your perjury and to consult their prejudices in extending mercy to the miscreant.  Thus are you doubly a pathetic disgrace, T.

As for lies of a personal nature, or making up falsehoods out of whole cloth, I did not accuse you of this.

If it please the Court, the miserable defendant seeks to palliate his guilt by pretense of lack of malice aforethought - despite the evidence of manifest intent heedless of all proper probity on his part - and in contravention of the very principles he therein espoused.

I think my post made it clear that I was referring to a broader phenomenon of liars and scum that infest the WN scene,

Are you not the author of these words, “He regularly misrepresents and distorts his opponent’s position,...”?  Even now you boldly lie to the Court!  So how does the cretinous defendant hope for mercy when he persists, even now, in his offense?

So you have nothing to worry about if my observations and experience with you do not correspond to that of others, and since you do not seem to take issue with any specific claim that I made, what more is there to discuss?

There is your ancient and incorrigible inclination to prevarication, as you now re-iterate the pretense of having made a “specific” claim to which I had not made reference (and as though I had not demanded substantiation of multiple allegations)  - beyond which, as remarked above, you hoped to artfully support this, your first lie, by categorizing your unsupportable allegations (reciprocal falsehoods themselves) as distinctively “generalized” - and which you then hoped to pass off as non-specific to myself, in a terminal lie.

Finally, it remains to “discuss” whether, amidst this second episode of your exposure and disgrace, your own principles (so do I write with irony) should be applied to yourself.


444

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:12 | #

Neo, and I’m not making a claim here because I don’t remember to a certainty, but didn’t you once claim to be a “superman?” I’m pretty sure that you did, but feel free to disabuse me of that misconception in the unlikely event that I’m in error.

I believe that is a false claim - but you have achieved the desired irrevocable effect by making it.


445

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:17 | #

The TARDS ON PARADE file, over at SUPERHUMAN, has been gathering dust for a while now.”

Typed your url wrong, souperman.

Fear not, below average person, you have only to click on my pseudonym (“NeoNietzsche”) above any of my messages.


446

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:31 | #

By the by, funny comments from Follower.

Also, in what truly is a grand achievement in the Alice In Wonderland Department, one cannot help but appreciate the supreme irony of a man who resents being called a crank, then expresses said resentment on his personal blog, entitled…wait for it…Superhuman.

Yes, that’s right, Superhuman.

Neo, and I’m not making a claim here because I don’t remember to a certainty, but didn’t you once claim to be a “superman?” I’m pretty sure that you did, but feel free to disabuse me of that misconception in the unlikely event that I’m in error.

One thing is for certain: there is no crankishness involved here, no sir!

LOL!

Life is indeed stranger than fiction.  Perhaps we should think about going into comedy, I mean, the skits will practically write themselves.

Are you really the intellectual troglodyte that this message suggests you are, T.

Or is this just more of your low tactics in appealing to the the gallery’s presumed lack of instruction. 

It appears that, in the latter instance, you associate with GW in a low opinion of his own venue.


447

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:45 | #

“...your unsupportable allegations ([ironically, reciprocally, true])...”


448

Posted by Trainspotter on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:29 | #

Geez, one just has to shake one’s head. 

Neo: “It should come to you upon a careful re-reading of the fourth from my last message.”

I have a better idea.  Why don’t you, specifically, state the “lie” that I have told about you.  You can’t, because I haven’t.  So you weasel and dance about instead. 

I have drawn a rather straightforward conclusion - you are a crank.  I drew that conclusion from my experience and observation.  I have stated, quite plainly, that others can determine, in light of their own observations and experiences, whether my conclusion is warranted or not.  I’m not asking anyone to take my personal experience with you as the Gospel.  Sometimes two people just don’t hit it off very well, but can play well with others.  I don’t believe that is the case with you, but since I’ve been ignoring your posts for some time, I can’t completely discount the possibility.  I’d wager that it is more likely that pigs will fly, but whatever. 

It really is that simple…but you can’t comprehend even this.  Asperger’s, thy name is Neo.  That is one of the hallmark’s of the crank: he invariably misinterprets, misconstrues, or in the vernacular - he just don’t get it.  You didn’t get it with a swastika, and you don’t get it now. 

Here is a very simple lesson for you, Neo, one that most sentient people would not need (non asperger’s patients can safely skip the rest of the post, you’ve known this since the fifth grade).  If I say, “Neo is a thief and a child molester,” then that is a claim that most people would recognize requires serious proof and that, without said proof, should have never been made.  If someone makes something like that up, he is a disgusting liar indeed. 

If, on the other hand, I say, “Neo is a ridiculous crank who’s idea of intellectual argument is posturing and distortion (which is in fact my position with you),” then a normal, sentient person would understand that I am expressing an opinion based on my own experience, not a mathematical proof.  It is up to the audience to determine whether my conclusion makes sense in light of their own observations.  That is not an appeal to “prejudice,” and your claim to the contrary is absurd.  It is rather an obvious appeal for a man to use his own mind, weigh the evidence before him, and come to his own conclusions.  It is not reasonable to demand that I present the entire history of our interaction, and in fact a sane person would understand that it would be utterly ridiculous to do so.  Naturally, this doesn’t compute for Aspergery Neo. 

If others have found you honest and fair in debate, then my personal conclusion will be regarded as an aberration.  If, on the other hand, their experience corresponds with my own, then that’s a different story.  I’m confident that many will so conclude, because you in fact do exactly what I have claimed that you do. 

The only proof anyone needs on a matter such as this is their experience with you, which is the same standard of proof that they need to conclude that you are simply a jerk. Which, of course, you are.  But the world is full of jerks, nothing particularly romantic about that, while a true crank is a more rare and special thing, so I’ve betowed an honor upon you, at least of a sort.  Neo - not just a run of the mill jerk, but a bona fide crank.   

Neo: “I believe that is a false claim…”

You “believe” it is a false claim?  Did you, or did you not, claim to be a superman?  A non-crank would have no problem answering such a question (and the answer would be “no, definitely not”), yet you can’t even do that much.  Very, very telling. 

And, as I made clear (yet you distort), I did not make it as an absolute claim, but when a guy’s personal blog is called “Superhuman,” it’s certainly not an unreasonable question.  Again, the crank can’t understand, or at least pretends not to understand, that there are certain implications that result from having a personal blog called “Superhuman,” and that one such implication is that he is likely to be asked questions that would not be expected of the guy who runs Two Beers with Steve.  Some things just come with the territory, dude. 

You will, of course, obsessively require the last word.  I’m about done here, and will not spend more posts explaining that two and two make four.


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Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:30 | #

...the supreme irony of a man who resents being called a crank,...

T.,

Is there no limit to the amount of instruction that you require - or is this merely another instance of your untermenschliche misrepresentations?

If the former, please reflect upon the obvious fact that effective irony requires facticity in its premises.

I need not make another vain request for substantiation of one of your ersatz allegations, because we have the page before us wherein I made no reference or protest to “being called a crank”.

The implications are obvious for further derogation of your (absent) honor and (defective) intellect.


450

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:47 | #

Why don’t you, specifically, state the “lie” that I have told about you.  You can’t, because I haven’t.  So you weasel and dance about instead.

Your lie, “specifically,” and among others, is the unsubstantiated (and false) allegation (more precisely, the insinuation: “cranks, liars and distorters”) that I have lied.

[As if “distortions” and “misrepresentation,” as are the further pointed accusations, are not “lies” in substance, in any case.]

And please don’t bother to weasel out after having just imputed to me an understanding of to whom you refer by association (“cranks’).

So you now, and again, rely upon the hope that the gallery has not paid attention and that you may escape exposure of your imposture.


451

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 20:00 | #

If, on the other hand, I say, “Neo is a ridiculous crank who’s idea of intellectual argument is posturing and distortion (which is in fact my position with you),” then a normal, sentient person would understand that I am expressing an opinion based on my own experience, not a mathematical proof.  It is up to the audience to determine whether my conclusion makes sense in light of their own observations.  That is not an appeal to “prejudice,” and your claim to the contrary is absurd.  It is rather an obvious appeal for a man to use his own mind, weigh the evidence before him, and come to his own conclusions.  It is not reasonable to demand that I present the entire history of our interaction, and in fact a sane person would understand that it would be utterly ridiculous to do so.  Naturally, this doesn’t compute for Aspergery Neo.

I reproduce the original remarks to which you refer so that they can be checked for correspondence with your present characterization of them:

  At the risk of lowering the level of discourse, I’ll spell it out: Neo is a certain type of crank.  As best I can tell, he has always been such.  His younger version of crankery involved parading about with swastikas, his current version involves littering message boards, doing what he can to disrupt intelligent conversation.  He regularly misrepresents and distorts his opponent’s position, destroying the educational value (or pretty much any other value) of the exchange.

  Is he stupid?  No, he’s a bright guy, though he of course delights in calling other bright people stupid.  He should recognize that such tedious insults make him appear sophomoric, but as a crank, he just doesn’t get it.

  He is simply the kind of guy that needs to be contrarian, whether in costume or now in digital form.  His interest is clearly not in the continuity of our people; he doesn’t care a whit about that.  What he does care about is posing, posturing, and most of all, “Notice me! Notice me!”

  In short, a crank, something that all fringe movements attract more than their fair share of.  I cannot take him seriously, and it amazes me that anyone else does.  I suspect that some may recognize his intelligence, but cannot see the crankery that deforms it.

  If we are to evolve into a real movement, we must learn to shun the cranks, liars and distorters.  I’ve recently adopted a very simple, but stringent rule: if I know for a fact that someone is engaging in misrepresentation or distortion, not simply a misunderstanding based in good faith, then that’s it.  No second chances; strict shunning.  On the internet, we really have no idea who we are dealing with, so protocols must be both simple and clear.

I do not find this proclamation so modest and cautious as to be none other than:

...an obvious appeal for a man to use his own mind, weigh the evidence before him, and come to his own conclusions.

“Evidence,” of which you firmly asserted the existence, of your own knowledge (“He regularly misrepresents and distorts his opponent’s position…”) and hypothetical “facts” (“If I know for a fact…”) of which there were, are, and evidently will be, none “before” us, remain the issues that mortally embarrass your original remarks, that conclude by preemptively insinuating that I am thus of a class to be shunned.

I appears that you now beg the Court to take your original remarks as being of no substance, in view of this revision containing nothing for which you (who now merely rely upon hypothetical co-defendants) can be held responsible - thus you do not offend for having, in effect, said nothing - while you hope for someone else to responsibly say something (of substance, in support of your lies, distortion, and misrepresentation of my contributions).

So I will be so generous as to accept this constructive retraction of anything of alleged substance accountable to yourself - it remains to be seen whether the Court of opinion will take note of your pathetic self-abasement and do likewise.


452

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 20:14 | #

Neo: “I believe that is a false claim…”

You “believe” it is a false claim?  Did you, or did you not, claim to be a superman?  A non-crank would have no problem answering such a question (and the answer would be “no, definitely not”), yet you can’t even do that much.  Very, very telling.

Once again you require instruction - for the case is the opposite.

Claims framed apodictically are symptomatic of guilt and of the mere effort to contradict.

I wrote as I did because I cannot recall the context of every discussion - though I can “definitely” say that I never wrote it in the spirit of which you wish to make use in your “sophomoric” capacity as a juvenile heckler.


453

Posted by Trainspotter on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 20:21 | #

Neo: “I need not make another vain request for substantiation of one of your ersatz allegations, because we have the page before us wherein I made no reference or protest to “being called a crank”.”

You don’t deny my main point, but my subsidiary points are “ersatz”?  Or, you do deny my main point, but object to me saying that you resented said main point?  It’s important to you to make it known that you can deny without resenting?  The real question, of course, is how much more of Trainspotter’s time can be wasted in dealing with Neo’s nonsense? 


Neo: “Your lie, “specifically,” and among others, is the unsubstantiated (and false) allegation (more precisely, the insinuation: “cranks, liars and distorters”) that I have lied.”

Ah, turning the truth on its head.  My conclusion is that you distort and misrepresent your opponent’s position.  You do.  Debates with you are not fair and honest, but rather a constant fending off of misrepresentations, and really a lot of dressed up nonsense (see above).  They accomplish nothing except to destroy the thread in question, presumably feed your crankishness, and certainly waste a lot of time.  I lump cranks, liars and distorters together for one reason only: they are all a liability, and should be shunned as such.  It took me the last few months to reach this conclusion, but I’m convinced it’s the right one.  I’m about to start following my own advice. 

Neo: “So you now, and again, rely upon the hope that the gallery has not paid attention and that you may escape exposure of your imposture.”

Yes, you certainly have a solid grasp of the situation.  LOL!  The gallery can decide as it will.  My experience with you has satisfied me that my conclusion is correct. 

This isn’t really about you, not in the final analysis.  It’s about how to deal with the negatives in the movement, such as it is.  You are merely one example, there are far more egregious offenders.  I’ve had very little time to post in the last several months, and most of that time has been spent dealing with negatives.  It’s been a learning experience, to say the least.  Much of that was by choice, but I’ll not waste what little time that I may have in the next several months doing the same thing.  I’ve given you an opportunity to make substantive points before I take my own advice, but since all I’m getting is standard Neo nonsense, I’ve moved from “about done” to just plain done. 

Believe it or not, I don’t despise a crank in the way I do a garden variety liar.  Cranks are often good for a laugh, and sometimes more.  The talented ones can even provide a worthwhile perspective, though they always muck it up in the end, as they just can’t help themselves. 

It is clear that you either do or at least had a fair share of talent.  But you are what you are, you will always be a negative, and the primary danger is turning others into negatives as well.  Certainly continuing to go around and around with you accomplishes nothing of value.  You exalt the superman, but in practice, your influence is only to drag down, never to uplift.  This *irony* is, I’m sure, lost upon you as well.  For my purposes only, this thread is closed, and I won’t be reading any additional posts on it.


454

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 20:36 | #

And, as I made clear (yet you distort), I did not make it as an absolute claim, but when a guy’s personal blog is called “Superhuman,” it’s certainly not an unreasonable question.

And I beg your pardon for my error in taking and responding to your insinuative “question” as a “claim”.

(You steal a dollar and ask that the penny that you dropped be returned to you in justice.)

Again, the crank can’t understand, or at least pretends not to understand, that there are certain implications that result from having a personal blog called “Superhuman,” and that one such implication is that he is likely to be asked questions that would not be expected of the guy who runs Two Beers with Steve.  Some things just come with the territory, dude.

Do take all the comfort you can from prevailing in this (one very tiny) dispute.

I see that you are, indeed, making much of it - and milking it for all it’s worth.


455

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Fri, 12 Nov 2010 21:53 | #

Neo: “I need not make another vain request for substantiation of one of your ersatz allegations, because we have the page before us wherein I made no reference or protest to “being called a crank”.”

You don’t deny my main point, but my subsidiary points are “ersatz”?

Correct.  Your main point is as to a subjective judgment.  I do not bother to argue the application of such labels.  You are, in that capacity, merely a heckler calling names.  Your (“subsidairy”) allegations were (ostensibly) as to matters largely of fact - which might have been mooted as such had they been “before” us - as they are not.

Or, you do deny my main point, but object to me saying that you resented said main point?

I do not respond to your main point and reaffirm that you were in error in claiming that I had expressed resentment.

Neo: “Your lie, “specifically,” and among others, is the unsubstantiated (and false) allegation (more precisely, the insinuation: “cranks, liars and distorters”) that I have lied.”

Ah, turning the truth on its head.

As you do by failing to quote the next line:

“[As if “distortions” and “misrepresentation,” as are the further pointed accusations, are not “lies” in substance, in any case.]”

To wit:

My conclusion is that you distort and misrepresent your opponent’s position.

So we have to go through the whole thing again, for your revision, now, of your revision.

Debates with you are not fair and honest, but rather a constant fending off of misrepresentations, and really a lot of dressed up nonsense (see above).

The “dressing up” was your own doing in clownishly presuming to know my answers to your questions and preemptively (there you are again) drawing conclusions on the basis of what you imagined them to be.

And so you hope to finally and pathetically bring home a worm from a hunt for a defence in substance.

And I am now placed in the sad position of informing you that your worm was just a booger from your nose.

I’ve given you an opportunity to make substantive points before I take my own advice, but since all I’m getting is standard Neo nonsense, I’ve moved from “about done” to just plain done.

You outdo yourself in imposture, posing, and pretense, with this remark.

For my purposes only, this thread is closed, and I won’t be reading any additional posts on it.

And so it falls to imaginary co-defendants before the Court of opinion to bring us something for which someone, at long last, can be held responsible, since Trainspotter (the hit-and-run character assassin, hypocrite, impostor, and incorrigible liar) cannot be held to any position of substance that he will defend in full.


456

Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 00:31 | #

Train and Neo are exgaging in a protracted discussion about whether or not Neo is a crank.  LOL!


457

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 00:35 | #

Cranks can be painful if spark is not retarded.


458

Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 01:00 | #

This is not an idealisation.  This is a brief portrait from life of two men I have known well, one of whom is still alive.  It does not contain any positive value judgement of the free-fall bomb

The fact that you bring it up implicitly does contain a value judgement if indeed you would not be inclined to mention it if you considered the RAF burning Krauts alive shameful.  Do you believe that the RAF burned Krauts alive is shameful?  If you considered it shameful, would you bring it up?


459

Posted by Grimoire on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 04:22 | #

I propose we accept limits on the number of insults or derogatory adjectives/adverbs per sentence - no more than one per sentence. This is reasonable, with the result being the accuser must support his charge with other than epitaphs.

I propose we limit ourselves to one accusation per comment - or at least itemized by number or article per accusation…so the accused may respond directly to specific indictments.

Accusations containing vague character assassination, contained within ‘stream of conciousness’ or entirely subjective, ‘left brain’ impressions, may be accepted if representing artistic license…..(ie) poetry, prose, ballads or limericks offer special license and may contain as many derogatory adjectives and slanderous metaphors as necessary to fulfill the articles artistic intent.
However, to use such dilatory tactics in objective, literal prose….is prima facie evidence of lack of substance.


460

Posted by Grimoire on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 04:36 | #

Half moon fills sky.
Gworker hides in bush like mating hobo’s.
Causes scrotum burn.


461

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 06:22 | #

Chapped ass and hideless scrotum
if supermen hedge, GW croaks ‘em.

Cool as a Belgian, he never gets heated
until confronted by someone conceited.

If you argue with him and hope win it,
pray that your words come out authentic.

Thousands tried and thousands fried
puffed like blowfish, bloated on pride.

If you want your dasein to end up peachy
don’t come around here talkin’ bout Nietzche.


462

Posted by Desmond Jones on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:10 | #

“Was there a rule then to say that you shouldn’t bomb, shouldn’t kill, shouldn’t burn to death one hundred thousand civilians in a single night?”

Was it a deeply seated love of kind that allowed beautiful and sacred German women and children to be put in harm’s way? How could a loving Fuhrer be so inconsiderate of the potential suffering of a people who loyally followed and obeyed him?


463

Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:23 | #

The difference is faith and falsifiability.

The allegedly planned “Slavocaust” has been falsified to my satisfaction.

You, my friend, appear to one of the faithful.

That depends on the standard of evidence for “falsifiability”.  To my mind - and since I am the one who must decide for myself, it can only be my mind that makes the determination - the alleged plan to exterminate Slavs by Germans cannot be proven ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ nor to a ‘preponderance of the evidence’. 

Yes, but it does not change the point.

 

Depending upon what kind of Nordicist you are, and accordingly the level of concern you extend to Slavs consistent with that, it would make all the difference of determining your level of outrage at this allegedly planned atrocity.  It is you and I conversing on this matter.  Whether or not the alleged plan is cosmically an outrage, if or not however many people may consider it an outrage, is not necessarily germane for our purposes here.

Again it’s not about reason but about evidence.

It goes to the state of mind of those who allegedly planned the extermination of Slavs.  In a court of law, that is considered valid evidence.

Except that is was a non-white that fired the shot at Ruby Ridge that killed Vicki Weaver. And it was the same non-white who allegedly fired the first shots at Waco.

So what?

how was Ruby Ridge a morale booster for white separatists?

It clearly was not.  But having guns banned as in the UK would be a further hit to morale.

it does not change the initial assertion.

Is it not in the self-interest of the government to maintain the morale of its security forces?

It depends on the lobby group. NRA?

The trend is clearly towards the government tightening restrictions on the ability of citizens to possess firearms.

How then EGI ?

An abstract rationale for preserving the genetic constitution of sentient beings which are the sum of their genes consistent with their genetically encoded ethnocentrism.

You’re confusing genes and race.

Race is rooted in genes.

Rushton said that interracial marriage is the exception that proves the rule.

Extraordinary compatibility is required to overcome the power of ethnocentrism.  This could very well be interpreted as verification of…the power of ethnocentrism - which I never claimed was all powerful.

Why flee at all if there is ethnocentric affinity?

Because of self-interest, which is not omnipotent as ethnocentrism is not.

Why war at all if he knew, based upon his experience of WWI, that the English and their diaspora would resist him with all their power?

Hitler didn’t “know” that.  He believed he could reason with Britain as to achieve an alliance.  And failing that, he believed he could win with blitzkrieg.

interpersonal affinity is not really the topic of discussion.

It is.  What motivates people to associate with one another is not merely a cold calculation of self-interest, but also interpersonal affinity.  Much of this affinity is rooted in ethnocentrism, I contend.

one is pre-meditated murder, the other is a reaction to pre-meditated murder.

Not if Germans, assuming the truth of the Holocaust story, considered Jews to be collectively responsible for the outrages some Jews committed against Europeans.  Then it would indeed be a reaction to the premeditated murders committed by Jews.

A profound psychosis yes if you believe Churchill and Eden were fighting for love of kind.

I would not consider that to be a “profound psychosis”, however tragically misguided.  That you apparently would makes me question on what basis you can consider yourself a Nordic racialist.

However, Churchill, apparently, believed it was better to fight than be enslaved

 

Even after the flight to Britain of Rudolf Hess?  The English people were conspicuously not informed of Hess’ exceptional selflessness nor the good tidings he brought.


464

Posted by Guessedworker on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:48 | #

CC,

Except, Grim wrote:

the idealized hero…. risked his life and honour to bomb, kill and mutilate women, children, the wounded, aged and infirm. To destroy the physical manifestation of Europe.

So it was not so implicit.


465

Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 11:18 | #

If I ever really decided to take the gloves off, believe you me, the English, Brit Canadians, and the half-English would know it.

Damn I’m good. 

As I recall the allegedly “superior” Greg Johnson had a bit of a minor meltdown when I took him to the woodshed in debate.  Something akin to Wanda’s major one at merely observing my exploits and not being subjected to them.  Another notch which could easily added to my belt would be Trainspotter - although I wouldn’t see much point as we have no significant disagreements.  And like Potential Freud, he would be well served by learning the fine art of succinctness.

Is Neo a crank?  Is Hunter Wallace a mental defective and could you kick his ass?  In less than 5000 words, please.  LOL!


466

Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 12:39 | #

So it was not so implicit.

Burning Krauts merely an extension of being a “street-fighter”, eh?  And I thought the English didn’t do “gangsterism”.


467

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:03 | #

Captain,

Train and Neo are engaging in a protracted discussion about whether or not Neo is a crank.  LOL!

If you will examine the thread, it will come to you that this was not contested.

My only objection, in this regard, was to the false allegation that I had expressed resentment thereof:

  Neo: “I need not make another vain request for substantiation of one of your ersatz allegations, because we have the page before us wherein I made no reference or protest to “being called a crank”.”

  You don’t deny my main point, but my subsidiary points are “ersatz”?

Correct.  Your main point {“Neo is a crank”) is as to a subjective judgment.  I do not bother to argue the application of such labels.  You are, in that capacity, merely a heckler calling names.  Your (“subsidairy”) allegations were (ostensibly) as to matters largely of fact - which might have been mooted as such had they been “before” us - as they are not.

  Or, you do deny my main point, but object to me saying that you resented said main point?

I do not respond to your main point and reaffirm that you were in error in claiming that I had expressed resentment.

Might I impose upon you, Captain, for a remark to the effect that you now appreciate, by virtue of having honestly examined the matter, that the contest, rather, concerned false and scurrilous allegations that found support in nothing that could be brought forth of substantiation?


468

Posted by Wandrin on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:06 | #

Captain Tampon,

Damn I’m good.

You’re an idiot.

Arguments are a vector, not a point. They have a trajectory.

You can’t see where the trajectory of your arguments leads because you’re an idiot.

Because you can’t see where the trajectory of your argument leads you also can’t see why that trajectory leads somewhere that would be automatically rejected by 90% of white people under conditions as they stand now and as they’ve been for the last 60 years.

You’re an idiot.

They might work again if conditions ever get so bad again but that will probably be too late.

You’re an idiot.

I’m not going to argue your points because i can see where they lead.

Anyone with any sense will automatically see both where your arguments lead and where arguing with you will lead and apart from a little fencing around the edges they won’t argue with you either.

It’s not because you’re good it’s because you’re an (unfixable) idiot.

Something akin to Wanda’s major one at merely observing my exploits and not being subjected to them.

There’s no way to talk you round because you think the way you do because you have no understanding of human nature. That only leaves one option which is impossible over the internet. My “major one” is purely frustration at not being physically able to **** **** ****** ***, nothing more.

You’re like that guy who trolls WN sites constantly taking pops at Catholics. There’s no point arguing with him because he’s obviously obsessed but it’s frustrating all the same because of the pointless divisiveness.


Jimmy Marr,

don’t come around here talkin’ bout Nietzche.

Personally speaking it’s not talking about Nitchy. It’s about talking about Nitchy in unneccessarily convoluted language. In a Nitchy context flowery language would be no match for a gun therefore for a Nitchy to utilise flowery language in an attempt to prove their souperman status is inherently naff.

If you’re going to be a Nitchy, speak plain.


469

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:47 | #

In a Nitchy context flowery language would be no match for a gun therefore for a Nitchy to utilise flowery language in an attempt to prove their souperman status is inherently naff.

BAP makes a point.

Superhumanity is the Classic combination of intellect and arms:

Julius Caesar at Alesia, sword in hand amongst the Gauls.

Alexander, first over the wall, taking an arrow in the chest.

Many another who knows no peer in the modern day.

If BAP would like, we can talk about personal armament - regarding which I can make some non-flowery recommendations.


470

Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:55 | #

Neo,

I think TP clearly thinks you do such “scurrilous” things as he accuses you of by dint of your allegedly being a “crank”.   So in that sense you were, yes, debating with him over whether or not you are a “crank”.  No, I don’t think you do as he accuses you of doing.  He just doesn’t understand what the fuck you are saying so his response is one of juvenile sniggering.

GW finds what you say so unconscionably un-English and very-“Prussian” that he can’t help himself from wanting to kick your ass.

For myself, I offer no opinion pro or con as to whether you are indeed a “crank”.

Wanda,

No, you are an idiot.  I feel no need to qualify that assessment in the least as it is obvious. 

Now, don’t you have some fish ‘n chips to gobble?


471

Posted by Guessedworker on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 14:11 | #

Superhumanity is the Classic combination of intellect and arms

No, it’s a misreading of consciousness of self, nothing more than an intellectual plunge into material values and psychopathy.

I recognise that if you are a sufferer of Asbergers or of some higher Autism, allied one must presume to ADS, there is little point in trying to bring you to an understanding of Mind.  But every man and woman deserves to be told once in their lifetime about the biggest non-secret we never normally glimpse.  And it is this: there is a function of consciousness that is characterised by a certain unity and sightedness, and which is actualised through a stilling by a certain focus of the attention.  While he is in this state of functioning, Man is truly himself.  Not this hero or that leader.  Himself.  And this simple fact is the gold standard of real knowledge.  The rest is just experience of the everyday, or thought about it, and sometimes the thought is perfectly absurd.  Neo.


472

Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:02 | #

I recognise that if you are a sufferer of Asbergers or of some higher Autism, allied one must presume to ADS, there is little point in trying to bring you to an understanding of Mind.

You hear that, Neo?  If you ever wish to overcome the stigma of this most expert of diagnoses you must start capitalizing “mind”.  If even dumb trucks like me and Jimbo Marrs can get it, surely you can.


473

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:25 | #

Captain,

I think TP clearly thinks you do such “scurrilous” things as he accuses you of by dint of your allegedly being a “crank”.  So in that sense you were, yes, debating with him over whether or not you are a “crank”.

Thank you, Captain, for considering the matter.

I think it fair to say that your characterization acquiesces in an imputation, by T., to the label “crank” (which I take to imply little more than eccentricity) a further element: prevarication - as in “lies,, distortion, misrepresentation” (which I do not).

So, may we clarify the point by saying that T. secretly brought a crank’s definition of the word to the argument, as he conducted it in his own mind (as you are speculating was the case) - and that I, rather, took the word in its more or less proper sense, distinguishing it from, and objecting to, the latter element/allegation.

The important implication of this seeming exercise in pedantry, if you will permit, Captain, is that we now take from your summary that I am T.‘s “crank” (in substance rather than in mere heckling) only by virtue of some support for the allegation of “lies, distortion, and misrepresentation”.

Otherwise his argument, as you would have it, reduces to this:

———————————————————————————-

“You are a crank. You are guilty of lies, distortions and misrepresentation.”

[Neo:] “Substantiate that please.”

“You are guilty of lies, distortion, and misrepresentation because that’s what a crank is.”

———————————————————————————

[But I am only now confronted with this secret formulation of the argument.]

Nevertheless, I would like to have the opportunity to address any specific instance of “distortion [or] misrepresentation” that any of Trainspotter’s imagined co-defendants would like bring before the Court.

Seemingly this would, by implication, dispose even of Trainspotter’s “main point” should there prove to be no such persons as can defend this libel.

No, I don’t think you do as he accuses you of doing.

Thanks again for considering the matter.


474

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:40 | #

No, it’s a misreading of consciousness of self, nothing more than an intellectual plunge into material values and psychopathy.

I recognise that if you are a sufferer of Asbergers or of some higher Autism, allied one must presume to ADS, there is little point in trying to bring you to an understanding of Mind.  But every man and woman deserves to be told once in their lifetime about the biggest non-secret we never normally glimpse.  And it is this: there is a function of consciousness that is characterised by a certain unity and sightedness, and which is actualised through a stilling by a certain focus of the attention.  While he is in this state of functioning, Man is truly himself.  Not this hero or that leader.  Himself.  And this simple fact is the gold standard of real knowledge.  The rest is just experience of the everyday, or thought about it, and sometimes the thought is perfectly absurd.

Words from Wonderland again.  Nonsense from the stress-converted and self-convicted.  A classic case-study, as drawn from the pages of Battle for the Mind.

This is why I refuse to be involved in (unproductive) discussions involving esoteric terminology.

That Parallel Dimension in which everyone is master of his own vocabulary and where, again, “Words mean what I say they mean” - and so they mean nothing, other than inwardly, in the end.

I’ve seen it repeatedly.

Let’s discuss the essential referents of “ontology” and “ontological” why don’t we?

See you next year, when everyone’s brain has drained out their ears.


475

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:53 | #

“Superhumanity is the Classic combination of intellect and arms.”

No, it’s a misreading of consciousness of self, nothing more than an intellectual plunge into material values and psychopathy.

No, GW, it’s what I take to be Nietzsche’s mature definition of the term.

If you have an argument with my contention as I would have it, deal with that.


476

Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 16:23 | #

Yup, Wanda, once I get this CBT for racialism thing rolling it’s going to be a thing of beauty.  If it doesn’t actually work, you know, in changing the way lemmings think by expertly pressing their psychological buttons, at least it will give us some good pseudo-intellectual sounding newspeak to bludgeon our enemies (the Jews) with and pathologize them.  Also an air of respectability for our intelleshual Game - the lemmings love that, as do the English.  Which is, after all, about what can be said for the “ontology project” at this stage.  Then I’ll be up there with the Big Dawgs, like Potential Freud.


477

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 16:24 | #

Captain,

[GW:] I recognise that if you are a sufferer of Asbergers or of some higher Autism, allied one must presume to ADS, there is little point in trying to bring you to an understanding of Mind.

[Cc:] You hear that, Neo?  If you ever wish to overcome the stigma of this most expert of diagnoses you must start capitalizing “mind”.  If even dumb trucks like me and Jimbo Marrs can get it, surely you can.

[GW:] You know you cannot survive it.  And you think this is some sort of beginning?  No, there will be no best of three, my friend.  If there were, I would take the belt from your trousers and the nails from your boots.  You are not a street-fighter.  More logical for you to stay home.

It appears, Captain, that yours is the wisdom of the moment.

For, in light of the prospects as foretold above, I must otherwise fear for the teeth in my gums and for the toenails in my feet.


478

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 16:40 | #

Chapped ass and hideless scrotum
if supermen hedge, GW croaks ‘em.

Cool as a Belgian, he never gets heated
until confronted by someone conceited.

If you argue with him and hope win it,
pray that your words come out authentic.

Thousands tried and thousands fried
puffed like blowfish, bloated on pride.

If you want your dasein to end up peachy
don’t come around here talkin’ bout Nietzche.

I think that this, despite coming somewhat at my own expense, deserves some applause.

Very clever and very funny, JM

Bravo.  And thanks for the laugh.

I hope we will have more of this.


479

Posted by Notus Wind on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:10 | #

Thank you NN.  Jimmy’s poem pleased me as well and made me laugh.

CC: If even dumb trucks like…Jimbo Marrs can get it, surely you can.

Simply by writing that poem I know that Jimmy is no dumb truck.  Not only is Jimmy a poet but he’s also a warrior and servant as is evidenced by his efforts at the Pacifica Forum and his loyalty and sacrifice to Orval.


480

Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:12 | #

I wouldn’t let it get to you, Neo.  I’ve seen these guys go for veritable marathon secessions whilst declaiming the most highfalutin technicolor insanities as it would appear to anyone of my friends, not to mention my girl.  Wanda has truly confirmed his own idiocy if he thinks even his extensively sanitized English version of the JQ would not put the fear of Satan (Hitler) in your average John and Jane Whitebread.  Even the long since thought lost Wintermute (Colin Laney) has reemerged at Tan’s to bash “the English”, er, Judaized Anglo-Saxonism.  The steady and admirable Tan, our Walter Cronkite of the JQ and its double standards (those really piss him off), must for that reason understandably remain mum on such questions as “Krauts” and “Nazis” - yet he confesses his admiration for The Turner Diaries, and does posts about The Order, so we can know his heart is in the right place.

As for “the English”, I can hear it now:

“David!  Are you talking to your Nazi friends on the computer again?!  Aren’t you supposed to be ‘working’?”

“Yes dear.  None of that.  Nose to the grind stone.”

And outside it’s an effulgent day.  So let us try to enjoy this, the one life we have, as we do Odin’s work in saving our race.  May the Nordic gods bless you and keep you, Neo. 

Have a grand weekend…(outdoors and not in front of the ‘puter)


481

Posted by Guessedworker on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:16 | #

I think that this, despite coming somewhat at my own expense, deserves some applause.

Very clever and very funny, JM

Bravo.  And thanks for the laugh.

I hope we will have more of this.

Well said.  I assumed I was the target of Jimmy’s mockery for misleading him into thinking the thousand teeth on the pavement from my career in intellectual pugilism formerly tore off great chunks of blood red meat from whole sides of heroically proportioned bulls.  Actually, the vast majority had picked away fastidiously at nothing more stirring to the visceral appetites than lentils and tofu, washed down with a cheering cup of fair trade decaf.

No, GW, it’s what I take to be Nietzsche’s mature definition of the term.

Not your misreading.  His.  He did not know.  He assumed the Christian salvationary dynamic was “it” (rather than presence-to-being) because his final value was faith.


482

Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:28 | #

Always a tongue in cheek, Notus.  Well, sort of.  You know me.  My fumbling attempt at “English” “humor”.  “The English” just aren’t very funny, are they?


483

Posted by Wandrin on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:35 | #

once I get this CBT for racialism thing rolling it’s going to be a thing of beauty.  If it doesn’t actually work, you know, in changing the way lemmings think by expertly pressing their psychological buttons

Good. Think on that long enough and you’ll eventually understand what i’m talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprogramming


484

Posted by Notus Wind on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:38 | #

CC: Always a tongue in cheek, Notus.  Well, sort of.

I know.  I just used your remarks as a springboard to say some nice things about Jimmy.

By the way, kudos to you for bringing CBT to our attention.  I’ve read about it in the context of OCD therapy but never thought about it’s relevance to GW’s project.


485

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:40 | #

Captain,

And outside it’s an effulgent day.  So let us try to enjoy this, the one life we have, as we do Odin’s work in saving our race.  May the Nordic gods bless you and keep you, Neo.

Have a grand weekend…(outdoors and not in front of the ‘puter)

Well said, Captain, and the same sentiments from me to you.

——————————————————————————————————-

GW,

I assumed *I* was the target of Jimmy’s mockery…

We both were.

(And may the Nordic gods bless you and keep you, too.)


486

Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:45 | #

Have a great weekend, guys!  (You too, Wanda.)


487

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 18:15 | #

Not your misreading.  His.  He did not know.  He assumed the Christian salvationary dynamic was “it” (rather than presence-to-being) because his final value was faith.

It’s not a question of “misreading”.

He defined a term.

He did not survey a population of putative “superhumans” and extract the “essence” thereof in what Kant would call a “synthetic” operation.

Rather he devised, or appropriated, a term for his purposes, of which he gave the definition so that his reader would understand how he was applying it as descriptive of a model individual - of which there may or may not have been more-or-less corresponding historic examples.

His project, as he described it, was in “fishing” for such individuals as he, a priori, had modeled and hoped existed.

His “Gentilshomme”.  His “Good Europeans”.  His “Free Spirits”.

The “men whom Zarathustra wants”.  The paladins of the European “tyrants” to come.

Thus there was nothing to “misread” other than the potential for the existence of such individuals in significant numbers - wherein it appears that he wrong - but which is another issue.

And his final value - while he retained his sanity - was not “faith,” but rather “conceiving reality as it is” - and don’t bother to tell us that that is merely another form of faith in other than the trivial sense that science may be said to place a well-founded, empirically-based “faith” in the persistence and perceivability of patterns in nature such as permit accurate predictions of the future (with which, as it happens, Nietzsche may be credited).


488

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 18:29 | #

My poem’s aim was conciliation through Synthesis, which I’m afraid is ultimately a laugh at my own tendency to worship a “lovely word”.

Notus,

Thanks for kindly referring to my post about Orval. In re-reading it, I am reminded of my self-professed loyalty and the incumbent need to drag myself to his bedside today. I’ve been avoiding him because he begs me to remove him, and his kin insist that I not transport him. In fact, they have suggested that my visits serve only to agitate him. There’s a big part of me that would love to take the hint, but the fact that I’ve advertised myself as a loyalist is working on his behalf.


489

Posted by Notus Wind on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 18:35 | #

NW: Granted, the great majority of people live their lives while an organized minority manages the political apparatus, that much is obvious.  But how should this organized minority come to be?  Should it arise on its own or should it be determined via heredity, elections, paper tests, man to man single combat, or something else?  Who gets the power and all that. (link)

NN: [no response that I could find]

NW: Granted, the great majority of people live their lives while an organized minority manages the political apparatus, that much is obvious.  But how should this organized minority come to be?  Should it arise on its own or should it be determined via heredity, elections, paper tests, man to man single combat, or something else?  What does your knowledge of political-economy reveal on this matter. (link)

NN: We already have the “organized minority” of this day in our cultural evolution: the military of Greater Judea.

Our only hope is for another Napoleonic Advent, but I will concede that such a development is about as likely as would be the realization of the traditional variety of Parousian expectation. (link)

NW: Forgive my rudeness but I think my question, “How should this organized minority come to be?” went essentially unanswered.  Yes, the facts concerning our military and your hope for another Napoleonic Advent are that they are, but the question of how things should be remains.  Once again, at your leisure. (link)

NN: Forgive the inadequacy of my response, but I have yet to understand what you mean by “should”.

I do not know how “this comes to be” other than by the processes of the past, with which I assume you are familiar. (link)
...

Talk about a frustrating exchange.  While I think the context of what I was looking for was made reasonably clear in my first two attempts at asking this question perhaps people other than NN and myself can weigh in as to their opinion.


490

Posted by Notus Wind on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 20:35 | #

Whoa, I see that it got a little ugly in this thread.


491

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sat, 13 Nov 2010 20:38 | #

Notus,

It didn’t escape anyone’s notice that your question went unanswered. The ensuing silence is attributable to the riskiness associated with a response.

In addition to being stumped by even its pragmatic exterior, I suspect that an attempted reply would ultimately result in the respondent being dragged into the masturbatorium of freewill vs. determinism where you and GW would administer the ontological lash.

Should it arise on its own or should it be determined…?

No thanks, buddy. You were right to direct this inquiry to a superhuman, and even he was wary of it except to say,

I do not know how “this comes to be” other than by the processes of the past

This sounds like determinism to me, but in superweasel style, it was perfectly prefaced by “I don’t know…”

It’s getting lonely here. There’s no one left to torture.

grin

Funny. I can see that you’ve Notussed this even before I posted it.


492

Posted by Grimoire on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 06:11 | #

GW: 

I assumed I was the target of Jimmy’s mockery for misleading him into thinking the thousand teeth on the pavement from my career in intellectual pugilism formerly tore off great chunks of blood red meat from whole sides of heroically proportioned bulls.

Gworker is having his Hunter Wallace moment.


493

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 10:29 | #

I mean, if we can’t explain the nature of something so fundamental as our own free will then how can we ever hope to understand other aspects of the human condition that only appear much further down the line. That is my challenge to you.

Yes, of course. I almost forgot. If we want to catch a bird, we must first put salt on its tail. Count me in.

At heart I’m inclined toward determinism, but if nothing else, I agree that we need a way to pass the time as we wait to see what our pimps have in store for us. And who knows, maybe we’ll be better men for it, when the time comes.

God knows, between here and OD, there will be enough teeth scattered around. I hope we can survive long enough to get to the Eye For An Eye part, (with our pimps, I mean).


494

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 13:51 | #

Notus,

One thing you’ve forgotten is that there are truths beyond the objective formalisms of science, math, and logic.

I disagree, in that I await the demonstration of your premise as to “truths beyond”.

Forgetfulness, in this context, falls along a continuum and is a matter of degree; your case is just more serious than most.  Unfortunately, this error occurs at the level of the metaphysical and esoteric, whose importance you dismiss as being the realm of impostors and stress-induced conversion experiences.

I do dismiss it.  But your list of my reasons is incomplete.

The impostors and fanatics also enjoy the company of those who are merely mistaken, as I suspect is your own circumstance.

Let me illustrate a gap in your thinking by bringing to your attention the matter of free will.  It is one of the most fundamental and essential aspects of the human experience and yet neither science nor any riff on Nietzsche can explain it; not now, not ever.

There is nothing to explain - it is a pseudo-problem.

That something so fundamental remains a mystery in our time should strike you as being a curious observation with humbling conclusions.

Had you my education in these matters you would not think so.  I find enduring naivete all over the place:

1) Relativity Theory

2) Special Creation

3) World Conquest

4) Collapse of Communism

5) Democracy (putative)

6) Forms (Platonic)

7) God

8) Law/Ethics/Morality

9) Mind/Body

10) Fairness/Justice/Equality

To name a few

I mean, if we can’t explain the nature of something so fundamental as our own free will then how can we ever hope to understand other aspects of the human condition that only appear much further down the line. That is my challenge to you.

What is the implication of any answer to the “question” of “free wiill”?  Is the world other than we find it in any case?  Or is your conceptualization of reality case-dependent?


495

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 14:29 | #

Notus,

Talk about a frustrating exchange.  While I think the context of what I was looking for was made reasonably clear in my first two attempts at asking this question…

I regret your frustration in this regard, Notus - you toward whom I am warmly disposed and so have multiple reasons for regret.

But my difficulty in response seems, to me, to be a product of your lack of sophistication. 

In that you apparently are asking for that which cannot be had - and unless you have had much instruction both in the logic and history of a synthesis of political science and economics, you will not satisfyingly understand why.

It seems, as one alternative upon which I previously speculated, that you are, in effect, asking for the depiction of a fiction, in asking about “should”.  This sounds prescriptive, to me - and I am telling you that there is no “prescription” other than I have already suggested in the form of an advent that we might facilitate by approaching such military personnel as are of our acquaintance.

If you *do* have a prescriptive fiction in mind, is the following something of a sketch thereof: “we ultimately save ourselves by talking about doing so, thus gathering those of like mind in sufficient numbers to vote ourselves into power, and then running the government according to our own agenda.”?

Or - if you are asking for an endorsement of a replay of NS Germany (with a happy ending) - you have it from me, (but you still won’t get the replay, no matter what).

Is this what you had in mind?

If not, please give me an example of what you *do* desire, so that I might pacify you, as I am at pains to do.


496

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 14:49 | #

“Questions” for you, Notus.

If brain activity is characterized by quantum indeterminacy/non-locality/non-temporality, do we thus have “free will”?

Please define your terms so that we might make a decision.

And, again, what is the implication of a decision either way?

And, if one cannot scientifically “formalize” the apprehension of phenomena, do they not remain simply “phenomena” rather than “truths” as other than unrationalized data/mysteries?


497

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 15:19 | #

11) Epistemological Absolutism

12) Form-of-Government

13) Social Constructionism/Deconstructionism

14) Dialectical Materialism

15) Eschatological Expectations


498

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 15:28 | #

16) Historical Linearity

17) Historical Teleology

18) Pacifism

19) Vegetarianism

20) Hirsute Palms


499

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 15:52 | #

Notus,

Let’s include “Free Will” on the list as Numero Twenty-Uno.

Now, please humbly, yet assertively, rank these 21 matters in terms of their “fundamentality”.

So that I might have an indisputable sense of a synthesis/balance of their priority and decidability/meaningfulness.

And a sense thus of how large a “gap” exists in my apprehension of ‘fundamentals”.


500

Posted by danielj on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 16:38 | #

I disagree, in that I await the demonstration of your premise as to “truths beyond”.

Can anybody demonstrate how there aren’t any?


501

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 16:42 | #

JM,

If I may attempt to correct an mis-impression on your part:

In addition to being stumped by even its pragmatic exterior, I suspect that an attempted reply would ultimately result in the respondent being dragged into the masturbatorium of freewill vs. determinism where you and GW would administer the ontological lash…You were right to direct this inquiry to a superhuman, and even he was wary of it

I was not aware of this prospect, and so was not reluctant to fully and cooperatively engage Notus on the point, to the best of my ability. (And thanks, JM, for the use of the correct terminology (“superhuman”).)

...except to say, “I do not know how ‘this comes to be’ other than by the processes of the past.”

This sounds like determinism to me, but in superweasel style, it was perfectly prefaced by “I don’t know…”

I object to the reference to “weaseling” - because it was/is, rather, a case of misunderstanding - that has yet to be resolved.  Again, I was not exercising a precaution - as evidently is the danger that you foresaw and I did not recognize.

Though I am now, thanks to you, alerted to this hazard.


502

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 17:16 | #

“I disagree, in that I await the demonstration of your premise as to ‘truths beyond’.”

Can anybody demonstrate how there aren’t any?

Yes.  By reference to an aspect of the burden of proof question.

Briefly:

We may well imagine that there remain potential “truths” (formulations/generalizations of patterns in nature) - but until we formulate them they are not truths.  A “truth beyond” - is thus a naive non-sense phrase if we preemptively assert the existence of a merely imaginary potential referent.

And so we may adduce the wisdom of, “whereof we do not know, we cannot speak”.


503

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 17:28 | #

Talk about a frustrating exchange.  While I think the context of what I was looking for was made reasonably clear in my first two attempts at asking this question perhaps people other than NN and myself can weigh in as to their opinion.

I certainly would welcome this development - but I would take the failure of this to develop as vindication of my own difficulties in accommodating Notus to his satisfaction.


504

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 18:02 | #

“We may well imagine that there remain potential “truths” (formulations/generalizations of patterns in nature) - but until we formulate them they are not truths.  A “truth beyond” - is thus a naive non-sense phrase if we preemptively assert the existence of a merely imaginary [intrinsically non-specific] potential referent.”

It may be objected that I am applying the positivist’s definition of “truth” to suit my own position.

Guilty as charged.

Then I resort to the Pragmatist position, in view of the venue.

For there may well be ineffable “truths” - “meaningfully” shared between persons who have had parallel conversions, epiphanies, traumas - or who are mislead by familiar uninstructed constructions of reality.

Nevertheless, esoterica and ineffabilities are not common currency.

And thus *generally* meaningful and *all* verifiable propositions should conform, at least approximately, to scientific criteria.  Which are devised to make possible cross-cultural communicability of universally-accessible experience.

Otherwise MR is simply a cult for such as GW and (lacking further instruction) my fellow techncian, Notus.


505

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 18:11 | #

NN,

I withdraw the weaselhood allusion.

Notus,

I can see that you have a long list of things to look into, but if you find any time for pro bono work, I’m still stuck in that Bowerian utopia of yours where people must deduce their eye color in order to escape.

The hypothetical problem of those islanders is not unlike that of people like GW and myself, who seem to suffer from a variation OCD, wherein the “O” stands for “Ontological”.

In its most extreme case, the patient becomes convinced that the only worthwhile employment of the eye is to see within itself, and everything else begins to signify a blind devotion to unreality. Needless to say, this can interfere with our ability get along well with others, whom we are naturally compelled to save.

PS: I also have a longstanding perplexity regarding the mystery of Jello, but I’m resigned to dealing with one conundrum at a time.


506

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 18:45 | #

In its most extreme case, the patient becomes convinced that the only worthwhile employment of the eye is to see within itself, and everything else begins to signify a blind devotion to unreality. Needless to say, this can interfere with our ability get along well with others, whom we are naturally compelled to save.

JW, is there any known symptomatic treatment for this condition?

I presume that it is intractable in terms of a “cure” other than reprogramming directed to an alternative conviction.

So, to what simplicities or stresses, then, ought patients be exposed, in hope of inducing, respectively, an epiphany or conversion to a more outer-directed, sociable orientation?


507

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 18:48 | #

Excuse me: “JM” - rather than “JW”.

{Somehow this darn keyboard inverted the “M”.)


508

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 19:10 | #

Alas NN,

Our condition is incurable, (self-sacrificial). We who suffer from it are best viewed as the Western equivalents of bodhisattvas, who refuse to enter Nirvana until the last of our kinsmen are safely gathered therein.

Fortunately, normal sentient beings are not privy to our arrogance, which is only visible from the superhuman vantage point of full-on Buddhahood.


509

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 20:00 | #

To put my idea in more Nietzchean terms: I suspect that we defer mastery in order to continue narcissistically viewing ourselves as the most nobel of slaves.


510

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 20:41 | #

JM,

To put my idea in more Nietzchean terms: I suspect that we defer mastery in order to continue narcissistically viewing ourselves as the most noble of slaves.

This is very interesting, JM.

My own understanding of The Four Noble Truths has it that life-pain is the problem that we eliminate by extinquishing desire - but you evidently have a sense that our convicts are, rather, pleasuring themselves with their auto-orientation.

I do see the parallels to which you point - but I fear that we must, must we not, deny “nobility” to this synthesis of sybaritic self-indulgence (rather than self-discipline) and proletarian self-satisfaction (rather than self-elevation), since the slavish version of “nobility” is invested in some form of sacrifice/martyrdom (something more than just delaying Nirvana while in comfort) - and the masterful version is devoted to societal stratification.


511

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 21:00 | #

[

i]our convicts are, rather, pleasuring themselves with their auto-orientation

First, I must clarify that I cannot, in good faith, continue referring to “our convicts” as anyone but myself.

Secondly, I agree in principle with your formulation, but would opt for “pain-avoidance” rather than “pleasuring”.

Thirdly, I maintain some hope in the eventual efficacy of widespread triple shock therapy should medicine ever become fully socialized.


512

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 21:13 | #

Thirdly, I maintain some hope in the eventual efficacy of widespread triple shock therapy should medicine ever become fully socialized.

LOL


513

Posted by Notus Wind on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 21:17 | #

Jimmy: In addition to being stumped by even its pragmatic exterior, I suspect that an attempted reply would ultimately result in the respondent being dragged into the masturbatorium of freewill vs. determinism where you and GW would administer the ontological lash.

Hehe.  Granted, your suspicion is perfectly reasonable given my activity around here but I can assure you that I had no such intentions.

NN: It seems, as one alternative upon which I previously speculated, that you are, in effect, asking for the depiction of a fiction, in asking about “should”.  This sounds prescriptive, to me - and I am telling you that there is no “prescription” other than I have already suggested in the form of an advent that we might facilitate by approaching such military personnel as are of our acquaintance.

Yes, I was looking for a prescription of sorts but am content to drop the matter and move on to other things that need discussing.


514

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 21:38 | #

NN,

I’m afraid you’ve cross-linked my reference to ECT. While a typical regimen requires 6-12 repetitions, I suspect that 3 are quite sufficient to render even the most resistant specimen more authentic than he really is.


515

Posted by Notus Wind on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 21:41 | #

NN,

First some epistemological matters.

For there may well be ineffable “truths” - “meaningfully” shared between persons who have had parallel conversions, epiphanies, traumas - or who are mislead by familiar uninstructed constructions of reality.

Nevertheless, esoterica and ineffabilities are not common currency.

The same applies to the axioms of Peano arithmetic.  The reason we recognize their truth is that a large portion of humanity undergoes the same conversion process in their early years.

We may well imagine that there remain potential “truths” (formulations/generalizations of patterns in nature) - but until we formulate them they are not truths [my emphasis].  A “truth beyond” - is thus a naive non-sense phrase if we preemptively assert the existence of a merely imaginary potential referent.

And so we may adduce the wisdom of, “whereof we do not know, we cannot speak”.

These sorts of epistemological criteria are always self-refuting as they can’t satisfy their own standards.  More to the point, the above criterion can’t be rigorously formulated.

Furthermore, would you have us not speak about the properties of everyday categories and objects?  I’ve yet to hear someone come up with a rigorous formulation of what it means to be a cat or an apple and yet we can accurately speak about these things.

Lastly, I wonder how much of your own thinking would survive this criterion.  To wit, how many of Nietzsche’s ideas did he rigorously formulate?  It was always my understanding that he rejected this approach.


516

Posted by Notus Wind on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 21:53 | #

NW: Let me illustrate a gap in your thinking by bringing to your attention the matter of free will.  It is one of the most fundamental and essential aspects of the human experience and yet neither science nor any riff on Nietzsche can explain it

NN: There is nothing to explain - it is a pseudo-problem.

One of the great questions of Western philosophy that goes all the way back to the pre-Christian Greeks is a “pseudo-problem”!  How do you mean?

NN: I disagree, in that I await the demonstration of your premise as to “truths beyond”.

We know the existence of truths beyond the reaches of said methods of investigation by rigorously demonstrating the limitations of said methods.  For example, see my presentation of the Godelian Argument.


517

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 22:06 | #

Notus,

Granted, your suspicion is perfectly reasonable given my activity around here but I can assure you that I had no such intentions.

Rigorous thought is painful. It comes with the territory, and I appreciate your judicious application of the encouragement stick, as long as it is not wielded as a dentifrice. I know that you would never do this, but our virtual landlord and some of his more outspoken tenants are given to fearfully graphic displays of verbal ferocity.

I hope I can depend on a continuance of your moderating influence. I find it very distracting to type while wearing a mouthguard.


518

Posted by Notus Wind on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 22:24 | #

Jimmy: I hope I can depend on a continuance of your moderating influence. I find it very distracting to type while wearing a mouthguard.

I’ll do my best.  wink


519

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 23:13 | #

Notus,

First some epistemological matters.

  “For there may well be ineffable “truths” - “meaningfully” shared between persons who have had parallel conversions, epiphanies, traumas - or who are mislead by familiar uninstructed constructions of reality.”

  “Nevertheless, esoterica and ineffabilities are not common currency.”

The same applies to the axioms of Peano arithmetic.  The reason we recognize their truth is that a large portion of humanity undergoes the same conversion process in their early years.

And what is the relevance thereof to adult concerns?

“We may well imagine that there remain potential “truths” (formulations/generalizations of patterns in nature) - but until we formulate them they are not truths [my emphasis].  A “truth beyond” - is thus a naive non-sense phrase if we preemptively assert the existence of a merely imaginary potential referent.”

“And so we may adduce the wisdom of, “whereof we do not know, we cannot speak”.

These sorts of epistemological criteria are always self-refuting as they can’t satisfy their own standards.  More to the point, the above criterion can’t be rigorously formulated.

Your first point seems to be a fashionable and false (in general) and remediable (in particular instances) indictment of epistemological criteria - which are often found to be inconvenient obstacles to flights from reality (hence the fashionability) and upon which you naively rely, and of which, ironically, you should have been suspicious, given the term “always”.

So you will need to deal with my specific contentions.  The above criterion does not fail for lack of “rigorous formulation,”  because it is a definition intended for application to, and derived from inspection of, the real world. Ironically, were it “rigorous” you could fault it and every other term ostensibly applicable to the imperfect empirical world as merely tautologous.  Only tautologies are, and are expected to be, “rigorous”.  Again, your objection fails.

Furthermore, would you have us not speak about the properties of everyday categories and objects?  I’ve yet to hear someone come up with a rigorous formulation of what it means to be a cat or an apple and yet we can accurately speak about these things.

You are the one requiring a “rigorous formulation” - not I.  I was asked for a “demonstration” of the absence of the *existence” of something, and I did not pretend that the demonstration was the product of rigor.

I, in effect, conceded (with reference to “positivism”) that it depended upon a falsifiable definition of “truth” but which I maintain corresponds to the term as used in communicable expression and determination of patterns in reality.

Again, a merely “rigorous” definition would have been tautologous and subject to objection.  (All Chinamen have buck teeth.  So if he doesn’t have buck teeth he’s not a Chinaman (hence a logically rigorous but tautologously useless formulation).)

Lastly, I wonder how much of your own thinking would survive this criterion.  To wit, how many of Nietzsche’s ideas did he rigorously formulate?  It was always my understanding that he rejected this approach.

Because he was a scientist, and not a mathematician.  He did not, and would not have, and could not have, “rigorously formulated” his ideas.  You are confusing/conflating the synthetic/empirical/falsifiable with the analytical/rational/presuppositional.  And what he rejected was, rather, the “systematic” formulation of his ideas.  You are, again, relying upon, and being confused by, summaries that do not serve you.


520

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 23:28 | #

NN,

I suspect that 3 are quite sufficient to render even the most resistant specimen more authentic than he really is.

Actually, 3 rounds, (of ECT), is probably overkill. Until we can get some kind of socialized medicine, a pair of carefully controlled treatments would probably be adequate. I should have mentioned this earlier, but I didn’t want to risk any more double meanings.


521

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 23:41 | #

Notus,

We know the existence of truths beyond the reaches of said methods of investigation by rigorously demonstrating the limitations of said methods.  For example, see my presentation of the Godelian Argument.

Do you not mean logical truths - and so are you not confined to mere mathematics?

Or do you mean, rather absurdly, empirical truths implicit in the limitations of empirical methods?

If the latter, what are these empirical truths?

As in “truths beyond”.

(You continue to conflate scientific “truth” with logical “truth”.  Math is the language, not the substance of science.  And you are attempting the secular version of a theodicy, for which essay you are not equipped, and under a misimpression of what is involved.)


522

Posted by Notus Wind on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 23:46 | #

NN,

Your points are taken.  Let me try again by quoting your words once more:

there remain potential “truths”...but until we formulate them they are not truths

What does “formulate them” mean?  This seems hopelessly vague.

How does one “formulate” the truth about apples or our very existence?

Why should we accept this criterion?

I try not to defend epistemological criterion for these reasons.


523

Posted by Notus Wind on Sun, 14 Nov 2010 23:56 | #

NN,

The Godelian Argument is just an example - or proof of concept if you prefer - of how we can demonstrate the limits of a particular system, in that case the system was first-order arithmetic.  However, other such demonstrations can be done in a manner appropriate to the system under investigation (i.e. the FWT for modern physics).


524

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 00:00 | #

Notus,

One of the great questions of Western philosophy that goes all the way back to the pre-Christian Greeks is a “pseudo-problem”!  How do you mean?

The problem has not been “rigorously formulated”!  LOL

But seriously, the problem lacks adequate definition, for its dependence upon subjective and variable impressions of the problem: Could I/he have done otherwise than I/he did?

What does that mean? If we don’t know what we mean, what *is* our problem, even if we concede that we have one?

That’s what I mean by a pseudo-problem.


525

Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 01:05 | #

Neo,

Do you accept that working on its own the intellectual system, which is one of the three principal cognitive systems of Homo sapiens, cannot by means of its functioning, which is thought-modelling, formulate experience?

For example, take this statement, which I hope will interest you:

Woman’s sexuality is expressed through the routine eroticisation of her body.

I contend (well, I know) that the intellectual system requires some assistance from another part of the mind that uses not thought but sexual instinct to evaluate the truth of this statement.  This example, when it allies intellect to the motor system rather than the sexual instincts, provides a template for entering that in no ways unfamiliar ground you term esoterica.  Thought alone fails.


526

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 01:29 | #

Notus (you naughty boy, trying to pull a fast one),

The Godelian Argument is just an example - or proof of concept if you prefer - of how we can demonstrate the limits of a particular system, in that case the system was first-order arithmetic.  However, other such demonstrations can be done in a manner appropriate to the system under investigation (i.e. the FWT for modern physics).

An “other such demonstration” (FWT) that does not follow the same protocol and does not “go beyond” in other than a conventional fashion in demonstrating implications without transcending “limitations”.  Indicative of this is its reliance upon “inductive arguments” and an arbitrary (if agreeable) central definition (the equation of “Free Will” with a refined understanding of indeterminacy).

Thus the first (logical) demonstration was not a “proof of concept” further illustrated by the second.  And the latter (empirically-based) demonstration does not illustrate “...truths beyond the objective formalisms of science, math, and logic.  Ironically - quite the contrary.

Try again.


527

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 01:54 | #

Your points are taken.  Let me try again by quoting your words once more:

“there remain potential “truths”...but until we formulate them they are not truths”

What does “formulate them” mean?  This seems hopelessly vague.

How does one “formulate” the truth about apples or our very existence?

Why should we accept this criterion?

I try not to defend epistemological criterion for these reasons.

By “formulate” I mean provide a generalization with recognizable substance.

Scientists believe that there are “truths” yet to be discovered.

Notus, please formulate one of these potential truths for me - one of the truths that are “beyond” what we know.

What does it concern?  What can you say about its particulars?  Can you say that it “exists,” as daniel would have it?

Would you not agree that unless we can formulate it, we cannot know whereof we speak and so declare it a “truth” (or a falsehood)?


528

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 02:26 | #

GW,

I have spent the better part of the day defending ontological enthusiasts against allegations of self-pleasurement by NN:

you evidently have a sense that our convicts are, rather, pleasuring themselves with their auto-orientation

Finally, in the eleventh hour, I receive the following as backup from you:

Woman’s sexuality is expressed through the routine eroticisation of her body.

I contend (well, I know) that the intellectual system requires some assistance from another part of the mind that uses not thought but sexual instinct to evaluate the truth of this statement.  This example, when it allies intellect to the motor system rather than the sexual instincts, provides a template for entering that in no ways unfamiliar ground you term esoterica.  Thought alone fails.

Come on man! This is not cool. Are we gonna work as a team or what?


529

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 02:42 | #

Do you accept that working on its own the intellectual system, which is one of the three principal cognitive systems of Homo sapiens, cannot by means of its functioning, which is thought-modelling, formulate experience?

If you so define the intellectual system.  Otherwise, I would agree that *some* experiences cannot be so formulated.

For example, take this statement, which I hope will interest you:

Woman’s sexuality is expressed through the routine eroticisation of her body.

I contend (well, I know) that the intellectual system requires some assistance from another part of the mind that uses not thought but sexual instinct to evaluate the truth of this statement.  This example, when it allies intellect to the motor system rather than the sexual instincts, provides a template for entering that in no ways unfamiliar ground you term esoterica.  Thought alone fails.

The underlined phrase does not make sense.


530

Posted by danielj on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 02:54 | #

Can you say that it “exists,” as daniel would have it?

I would say it exists but that I’m not sure of anything about the mode thereof, except that, it isn’t falsifiable in any empirical way.

Perhaps it is just prejudice, but at this point in my life, I don’t see how one can read the history of Western philosophy and not come away leaning toward some variant of realism.


531

Posted by danielj on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 02:55 | #

Can I also say, that Jimmy Marr is the shit!

I don’t know where he came from, but I hope he sticks around.


532

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 03:03 | #

“...variant of realism.”

Do you mean (Capital “R”) Realism?

As in “Universals are real”?

Or something else?


533

Posted by Captainchaos on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 04:11 | #

The intellect can generate experience, or things that can be experienced, such as math and logic.


534

Posted by danielj on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 04:31 | #

Do you mean (Capital “R”) Realism?

Yes.


535

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 06:20 | #

when it allies intellect to the motor system rather than the sexual instincts, (GW)

The underlined phrase does not make sense. (NN)

I’m chagrined to be the one who has to weigh in as the voice of authenticity on this matter, Neo, but I’m afraid G.Wanker is talking about “spanking the monkey”, and this after I spent half the day trying avert your suspicions of his indulgence in same.

I guess I’m going to have to re-evaluate the claims of those who have accused him of blindness.

Back to the drawing board!


536

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 06:51 | #

NN,

Your insouciant remarks stirred the blood in me to such an extent that I had to prepare a cup of herbal tea just to steady my nerves.  A talent you have no doubt cultivated over the years.

I see that it’s time to retire the sticks and pick up something more serious.  If nothing else, Daniel and Jimmy will enjoy the fireworks.

NW: Let me illustrate a gap in your thinking by bringing to your attention the matter of free will.  It is one of the most fundamental and essential aspects of the human experience and yet neither science nor any riff on Nietzsche can explain it

NN: There is nothing to explain - it is a pseudo-problem.

NW: One of the great questions of Western philosophy that goes all the way back to the pre-Christian Greeks is a “pseudo-problem”!  How do you mean?

NN: But seriously, the problem lacks adequate definition, for its dependence upon subjective and variable impressions of the problem: Could I/he have done otherwise than I/he did?

Friend, I don’t know who you think you’re trying to fool but this is nonsense.  The constellation of questions that surround the conundrum that is the phenomenological reality of free will is not a “pseudo-problem”; great Western minds have been struggling with it for at least two millennium because it is anything but.  You only serve to embarrass yourself by maintaining such obstinacy in this regard.

My suspicion is that you want to dismiss this question out of prejudice because of its implications for the inadequacy of your worldview.  A childish tactic not befitting any “superman” in good standing.

NN: there remain potential “truths”...but until we formulate them they are not truths

NW: What does “formulate them” mean?  This seems hopelessly vague.

NN: By “formulate” I mean provide a generalization with recognizable substance.

More nonsense, what is “a generalization with recognizable substance” is very much a matter of taste and relative to the individual, not the stuff objective epistemological criteria are made of.  As you would say, “Try again.”

Another point to expose the inadequacy of this epistemological move of yours - no doubt an inheritance from your intellectual godfather - is the reality of telepathy, which can be defined innocently enough even as it continues to resist any satisfying scientific formulation.  The positivist exterior must concede the fact of its reality in the face of such overwhelming evidence even as the prejudiced human beneath starts dreaming up new [presumably epistemological] excuses.

Let me tell you how this story ends, there is no tidy little epistemological criterion that allows you to keep all the stuff you happen to like and reject all the stuff you happen to not like while remaining somewhat convincing.  It’s an exercise as impossible as trying to come up with a set of self-contained moral axioms that do the same for objective moral values and duties.  Mature thinkers eventually come to realize the futility of it and don’t bother each other with such things.

An “other such demonstration” (FWT) that does not follow the same protocol and does not “go beyond” in other than a conventional fashion in demonstrating implications without transcending “limitations”.  Indicative of this is its reliance upon “inductive arguments” and an arbitrary (if agreeable) central definition (the equation of “Free Will” with a refined understanding of indeterminacy).

Empty blustering and misdirection.  The arguments are theoretical lines of evidence for the fact that certain systems have explanatory limitations in accounting for certain phenomena, that the explanatory truth for such phenomena must lie somewhere else finishes the job.  The arguments themselves rest on good mathematics, good science, and good philosophy and are not claimed to “go beyond” or “transcend” such things in the fullness of their development.

I extend my hand rather than a rope, as you stand taller in the Hole and are within reach of the surface.

What you see in the hole is not me but only my reflection in the water as I stand far above you in the clouds, safely ensconced on my mountaintop with the bright sun overhead.  I gaze out amongst the world before me in wonder and extend the rope to you below out of pity, but you rebuff my rope and insist on gazing into that dim opening.  Perhaps it’s because you are afraid of what the glorious horizon might reveal to your closed mind.  Unfortunately, an ostensible superman isn’t capable of admitting such fear, a fear that is - ironically - all too human.

My voice bellows from above, “Wake up from your self-imposed darkness and remember that which you have forgotten.”


537

Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:07 | #

Jimmy,

Never forget the famous videos of Padstow’s Old Oss that appeared in an MR thread a few months ago.  There is a value and there a truth which, quite without pretension, demonstrates the hopeless artifice of Neo’s intellectual absolutism.  But to see that you do need to know (which Neo doesn’t) that physicality, emotion, and thought, when brought into proximity, “make sense”, indeed make experience of human being.  And we are not talking about esoterism.  We are talking about the method as it intrudes into moments of ordinary life and visits upon us what Heidegger really meant by “authenticity”.

In contrast, the intellectual system alone occasions a divorce from “the life that is lived” , not to mention a tendency, because it cannot properly evaluate anything much in life without help from other systems, to reason its way to various “ideal” grotesqueries like Heroic Rebirth, the slave trade, Year Zero in Cambodia, and the MultiCult.

This very grave evaluational defect is something that Neo seems not to comprehend - indeed fends off comprehension by his noisy proclamation of slave/master morality!  Even if there is an autistic root to this behaviour and he cannot correct it, he deserves to be told.


538

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 15:36 | #

Notus,

My suspicion is that you want to dismiss this question [“free will”] out of prejudice because of its implications for the inadequacy of your worldview.  A childish tactic not befitting any “superman” in good standing.

Please perform the manly task of formulating these “implications,” and it will be my pleasure to deal with them in a mature - yeah, even a superhuman fashion.

More nonsense, what is “a generalization with recognizable substance” is very much a matter of taste and relative to the individual, not the stuff objective epistemological criteria are made of.  As you would say, “Try again.”

Taste and relativity have not been aspects of the problem - this is a red herring.  An example of a “generalization with substance” would be, whether true or false: “organisms identifiable as “cats” are conspecific”.

Also, you are the very one who has claimed that, “These sorts of epistemological criteria are always self-refuting as they can’t satisfy their own standards.”  But if a criterion is falsifiable, thus having (only approximate) applicability to the real world, you object to its lack of rigor, on principle, as again in this present instance.

So I have adopted the latter presentation, to which your objections are ill-founded for being the product of the conflation of empirical with logical considerations.  Coherence (“rigor”) in math - correspondence (evidence) in science - are the paramount considerations.

Another point to expose the inadequacy of this epistemological move of yours - no doubt an inheritance from your intellectual godfather - is the reality of telepathy, which can be defined innocently enough even as it continues to resist any satisfying scientific formulation.  The positivist exterior must concede the fact of its reality in the face of such overwhelming evidence even as the prejudiced human beneath starts dreaming up new [presumably epistemological] excuses.

I likewise find fault with positivism in this respect, as in some others (Relativity Theory).  You again suffer from the logician’s prejudice that scientific formulations are altogether true or altogether false - rather than being imperfect approximations of reality.  To my knowledge, the *flawless* scientific or epistemological theory has yet to be discovered, yet that which we have is what we must deal with selectively.  For example, Marxism, which is fundamentally flawed, contains important observations that are nevertheless true - and I make use of it to that extent.  The same can be said of other theories.  I find aspects of Logical Positivism and Pragmatism and Popper’s stuff useful.

Let me tell you how this story ends, there is no tidy little epistemological criterion that allows you to keep all the stuff you happen to like and reject all the stuff you happen to not like while remaining somewhat convincing.  It’s an exercise as impossible as trying to come up with a set of self-contained moral axioms that do the same for objective moral values and duties.  Mature thinkers eventually come to realize the futility of it and don’t bother each other with such things.

Spoken like the non-scientist that you so obviously are.  Science and a scientific (as opposed to dogmatic) epistemology are very much a patchwork, in the attempt to explain a complicated world - which is not that of those who would preemptvely insist upon a neat little package.  Indeed, there is no tidy little criterion - nor should one expect one, for the reasons we have examined: perfect is irrelevant - relevant is imperfect.

Scientists, investigating the messy and imperfect world, are not deterred by imperfection. But do please maturely resolve the confrontation between Relativity and QM for us, Notus, so that we might have use of either or both of them according your own criteria for “bothering”.  And do please object that science and epistemology are not comparable, and we will go over the lesson again as to “rigor” and the real world.

The arguments themselves rest on good mathematics, good science, and good philosophy and are not claimed to “go beyond” or “transcend” such things in the fullness of their development.

The “arguments” were adduced for no other reason than in support of the following:

One thing you’ve forgotten is that there are truths beyond the objective formalisms of science, math, and logic. [Implicitly, short of “the fullness of their development” (which we must infer would reduce them to their “formalisms” and so contradict their evidentiary value as “truths beyond” the same)]

The first argument was merely as to logical truths, and, to that extent, it *did* “go beyond” as was the point of adducing the argument.

But when it was pointed out that merely logical truth was not relevant to the larger discussion, you introduced the second argument (FWT) under the false pretense that it conformed to the specifications of the first argument (as to “going beyond”) - which it manifestly did not.

What you see in the hole is not me but only my reflection in the water as I stand far above you in the clouds, safely ensconced on my mountaintop with the bright sun overhead.  I gaze out amongst the world before me in wonder and extend the rope to you below out of pity, but you rebuff my rope and insist on gazing into that dim opening.  Perhaps it’s because you are afraid of what the glorious horizon might reveal to your closed mind.  Unfortunately, an ostensible superman isn’t capable of admitting such fear, a fear that is - ironically - all too human.

My voice bellows from above, “Wake up from your self-imposed darkness and remember that which you have forgotten.”

I think, rather, that you have gotten your torpedo stuck in your own tube, as underlined immediately above, and have sunk your own boat.  I’ve rarely come across so obvious a failure to keep one’s own argument in mind combined with a self-contradictory and fatal re-characterization of the crucial evidence for it.

The implication of all this is that it has *not* been shown, as was the original contention, that there are (something other than merely logical) “truths beyond the objective formalisms of science, math, and logic”:

”...his final value - while he [Nietzsche] retained his sanity - was not “faith,” but rather “conceiving reality as it is” - and don’t bother to tell us that that is merely another form of faith in other than the trivial sense that science may be said to place a well-founded, empirically-based “faith” in the persistence and perceivability of patterns in nature such as permit accurate predictions of the future (with which, as it happens, Nietzsche may be credited).”

One thing you’ve forgotten is that there are truths beyond the objective formalisms of science, math, and logic.

To this point in the discussion, there seems to be nothing of relevance for me to have “forgotten” -  but rather some relevant considerations for you to heed.


539

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 15:57 | #

GW,

I don’t remember, and neither can I find anything in the archives about Padstow’s Old Oss. I’ll extend my search later when I take time a time-out to contemplate deep existential matters.

Right now my primary concern is determining the extent to which your frail hands have been tickling more that just the ivories. You see, I’m just a soldier in this movement, but even as I write, JB appears to be planning some kind of big raid over on the Viking Revolt thread, and I have strong reservations about being in the close confines on a Longboat with a blind wanker.

So, unless and until James is willing to vouch for the acuity of your vision, I think we would be well advised to arrange some sort of division of labor. Who knows, by the time we paddle from Iowa to England you may have converted it into a Shangri-La of Authenticity, but one thing is certain, I will be in top physical form by then, and any attempt to disrupt my dental anatomy will be met with strong resistance.

In the interim, I hope we can get along on a “Don’t Ask. Don’t Tell” basis.


540

Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:21 | #

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_YmKdcSZDw

There you go, Jimmy.  Don’t look at or into the antiquity on display, the costumes, the mystery.  These are nothing.  Don’t look at it as performance or as something constructed.  Look at the people as themselves right there in that particular moment.  It’s very strong.


541

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:30 | #

GW,

Never forget the famous videos of Padstow’s Old Oss that appeared in an MR thread a few months ago.  There is a value and there a truth which, quite without pretension, demonstrates the hopeless artifice of Neo’s intellectual absolutism.  But to see that you do need to know (which Neo doesn’t) that physicality, emotion, and thought, when brought into proximity, “make sense”, indeed make experience of human being.  And we are not talking about esoterism.  We are talking about the method as it intrudes into moments of ordinary life and visits upon us what Heidegger really meant by “authenticity”.

In contrast, the intellectual system alone occasions a divorce from “the life that is lived” , not to mention a tendency, because it cannot properly evaluate anything much in life without help from other systems, to reason its way to various “ideal” grotesqueries like Heroic Rebirth, the slave trade, Year Zero in Cambodia, and the MultiCult.

This very grave evaluational defect is something that Neo seems not to comprehend - indeed fends off comprehension by his noisy proclamation of slave/master morality!  Even if there is an autistic root to this behaviour and he cannot correct it, he deserves to be told.

Do try to arrange another conversion/epiphany/moment-of-authenticity for yourself, GW.

In hopes of a fortuitous reprogramming that would bring some variety to your act.

Perhaps you could be vegan, for example.  Or a tree-hugger.  Maybe an abortion-clinic bomber?  (Indeed, the world always “makes [perfect] sense” to the well-integrated (mind/body/emotion) fanatic in his delusions - hence his persistent irrational behavior despite rational indications as to its inadvisability.)

Something, please, with a little more substance than these vaporous belchings, GW, with their aroma of cultural decomposition (“the life that is lived”) - that are themselves the fundament, and not the anti-thesis, of the intellectually sloppy and destructive “ideals” that follow from the anarchistic, proletarian, lack of intellectual discipline implicit in that very complacent, inward-looking, self-satisfied fundament.


542

Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:21 | #

Neo,

I have to tell you that you are trying very hard to devote your entire life to illusion.  But reality will not allow even you to do so.  So, for example, what is lipstick on a woman’s lips to your intellect, and what is it to your sexual instinct?  There are no epiphanies to the latter.  There is only experience which thought cannot reproduce for itself.

Here is the Iron Law: an intellectually derived “explanation” for reality will, if it is extrapolated into a political imperative, kill millions.


543

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:28 | #

GW,

Thanks for the link. While I agree that it is very impressive, as I mentioned earlier, I am a mere soldier, (sailor), in this expedition. James will dictate all ports of call.

If, however, we are fortunate enough to make it into the Celtic Sea by Spring, I’ll recommend Padstow to him. Meanwhile, I advise against the building up of any fantasies about this. James is a man stern disposition and his route will not be easily bent.

Until then, I trust you will keep a stiff upper pecker, (and hands at your sides).


544

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 18:31 | #

GW,

Here is the Iron Law: an intellectually derived “explanation” for reality will, if it is extrapolated into a political imperative, kill millions.

The megacidal movements have been based, rather, in your fundament (an unreflective mere “life as it is lived” in immediacy and simplicity and authenticity) of convicted attachment to primitive inclinations:

Marxism, in freedom/liberation/anarchy

Racism, in zenophobia/anti-Semitism/paranoia

And the “explanation” is merely a superstructural rationalization for indulgence of the impulse.

(The reality-based political science of the ancients, in contrast, was not productive of megacide.)

So your Iron Law is misconceived, since the modern ideologies are not “intellectually-derived” in other than pretense - and have an “imperative” because they are impulse-driven rather than the product of a calculus.


545

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 18:41 | #

[GW:] I have to tell you that you are trying very hard to devote your entire life to illusion.  But reality will not allow even you to do so.  So, for example, what is lipstick on a woman’s lips to your intellect, and what is it to your sexual instinct?  There are no epiphanies to the latter.  There is only experience which thought cannot reproduce for itself.

Let’s get married, GW,

I will be the man, who does the thinking for us - and you can be the woman, who does the feelings for the family.

How do you look in lipstick?


546

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 18:56 | #

NN,

Just a little mop up duty is all that’s needed.

Taste and relativity have not been aspects of the problem - this is a red herring.  An example of a “generalization with substance” would be, whether true or false: “organisms identifiable as “cats” are conspecific”.

Your example is a red herring, that people disagree on what is of “recognizable substance” is patently obvious.  In fact, this kind of disagreement happens all the time even amongst particle physicists.  Granted, these disagreements never take place over such trivial fare as the conspecificity of two identifiable cats.

The criterion is hopelessly subjective, both in its formulation and in practice.

Also, you are the very one who has claimed that, “These sorts of epistemological criteria are always self-refuting as they can’t satisfy their own standards.”

The problem is that if we must create an epistemological criterion for philosophical claims then by parity of reasoning we must also have a criterion for that criterion and so on.  The only way to resolve the situation is to have a criterion that satisfies itself at some step in the logic, which is almost certainly impossible and thus renders the whole epistemological project self-refuting (or self-defeating).

Science and a scientific (as opposed to dogmatic) epistemology are very much a patchwork, in the attempt to explain a complicated world.
...
Scientists, investigating the messy and imperfect world, are not deterred by imperfection.

Finally, an oasis of truth.  You’re correct, science is a messy patchwork, which is why there is no grand epistemological standard that holds it all together.  Scientists don’t think about epistemology when they’re trying to uncover the truth about the world, such things are invariably developed on a post-hoc basis (if it all) and are always provisional.  Popper set about his efforts precisely because he was unhappy with the scientists’ lack of epistemological care.

Anyway, you’re the one who brought epistemological considerations into this debate.

But when it was pointed out that merely logical truth was not relevant to the larger discussion, you introduced the second argument (FWT) under the false pretense that it conformed to the specifications of the first argument (as to “going beyond”) - which it manifestly did not.

Huh?  Nothing was pointed out as I have no idea what “specifications” you are talking about.  As I said earlier:

“The arguments are theoretical lines of evidence for the fact that certain systems have explanatory limitations in accounting for certain phenomena, that the explanatory truth for such phenomena must lie somewhere else finishes the job.”

If we can’t use these tools to find the relevant explanatory truth then it stands to reason that such truth is beyond the scope of our tools.  QED

Or if you demand something less theoretically intensive I can always direct your attention to the conundrum of telepathy; the explanatory truth behind its workings is almost certainly beyond the reach of any of our tools as well.


547

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:16 | #

NN: Please perform the manly task of formulating these “implications,” and it will be my pleasure to deal with them in a mature - yeah, even a superhuman fashion.

Your sense of humor is endearing.

The final implication at the end of a long and tedious catechism is that your worldview - which I suspect rests on conventional mechanistic assumptions - does not have an explanation for the source of our will; the very thing we use to make our way down life’s stream.  On this basis, how could it not be judged inadequate.


548

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:20 | #

Notus,

Friend, I don’t know who you think you’re trying to fool but this is nonsense.  The constellation of questions that surround the conundrum that is the phenomenological reality of free will is not a “pseudo-problem”; great Western minds have been struggling with it for at least two millennium because it is anything but.  You only serve to embarrass yourself by maintaining such obstinacy in this regard.

Let us accept your reduction/rationalization of “free will”.

Do people behave differently, in your eyes, now that you have “explained” it?

Are you able to modify or better anticipate their behavior by having reduced it to indeterminacy?

I yet await your specification of the important implications of the question or of its present answer (performed via a choice of formulations of the question - in this case addressing “freedom” but not “will”).

I trust that it will not take you long to realize that you have merely made us the ragdolls of indeterminacy in place of the robots of determinism.


549

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:27 | #

Christ, Neo, do have any idea how much trouble a last minute wedding is going cause around here with so many of us about to go to sea?

Who do you think is going to be your Best Man, PF?

How do you think the Captain is going to feel about that?

It’s markedly less than brilliant to f*ck with the Wind before setting sail. Do you really think your amorous advances toward GW are going to improve these prospects?

Have you even talked with Gorboduc about presiding over your proposed event? He’s been expressing a lot of reluctance over his participation here lately, and its doubtful that even Grim will be able to rehabilitate him in a timely manner.

Precisely what kind of pre-maturey ejaculative calculus have you applied to this cluster-f*ck of an idea?

I think things are moving a bit too fast between you a GW. I recommend that you try to calm down and use what little free-will might be available to you to reduce the probability of fateful outcomes for all of us.


550

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:42 | #

Your sense of humor is endearing.

The final implication at the end of a long and tedious catechism is that your worldview - which I suspect rests on conventional mechanistic assumptions - does not have an explanation for the source of our will; the very thing we use to make our way down life’s stream.  On this basis, how could it not be judged inadequate.

My worldview does not rest on conventional mechanistic assumptions.

And one does not need to reduce/explain phenomena in order to note their pattern.

Were you having difficulty making your way down life’s stream until you found your way to what you regard as an explanation of your will?

Personally, I’m doing quite nicely by *having* a will and not needing to *explain* it.  Do you need a definition/explanation of it in order to have one?

In any case, we have it from you that a worldview lacking a rationalization of “free will” is “inadequate”.

The important question, again, is: what is the implication thereof.

Pending that answer, it appears that my worldview is without defect but for the lack of this seemingly inconsequential “explanation”.


551

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 20:02 | #

I think things are moving a bit too fast between you a GW. I recommend that you try to calm down and use what little free-will might be available to you to reduce the probability of fateful outcomes for all of us.

Thank you, Jimmy - a cooler head has prevailed.

I confess that I lost my immediacy - so great was my passion - my member acquired a Mind of its own.

So womanly an expression of authentic sentiment from GW flared my nostrils and expanded my chest.

But I am past it now - I’m sure to everyone’s relief and the salvation of GW’s fundament.

And so I am feeling rather deflated at the moment: reduced to looking around the room for an epiphany-inducing object full of fundamental insights.


552

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 20:37 | #

NN,

First, your pragmatic objections:

Do people behave differently, in your eyes, now that you have “explained” it?

Are you able to modify or better anticipate their behavior by having reduced it…

And one does not need to reduce/explain phenomena in order to note their pattern.

Personally, I’m doing quite nicely by *having* a will and not needing to *explain* it.  Do you need a definition/explanation of it in order to have one?

Why do we do any science at all?  Aren’t the patterns of nature clear: the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, the rivers flow downstream, the seasons come and go in their time, the predator catches his prey, and so on.  Does our discovery of some very sophisticated theories in mathematical physics change any of this?  Of course not, yet pursuing such knowledge has been fruitful to us and has radically altered our understanding of the world.

The people who were content to observe and record the patterns of nature with the utmost precision and diligence were the Chinese.  Would you have us be Chinese?

I trust that it will not take you long to realize that you have merely made us the ragdolls of indeterminacy in place of the robots of determinism.

Oh no, my dear NN.  We are not chaotic rag dolls who violate the principle of causality [Daniel take not, this was Edwards’ mistaken definition of free will] but beings who make free decisions.  If you want more clarification on this point you can watch Conway’s lectures online.

My worldview does not rest on conventional mechanistic assumptions.
...
Pending that answer, it appears that my worldview is without defect but for the lack of this seemingly inconsequential “explanation”.

I agree then, it does lack an account of being.  Why would we ever need to know who we are if we’re going to think about politics?

Were you having difficulty making your way down life’s stream until you found your way to what you regard as an explanation of your will?

In truth, not particularly.  However, I’ve had a great deal of fun brandishing this thing; you see, unlike yourself, my academic colleagues think they’ve got it all figured out.


553

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 21:00 | #

Jimmy,

Reread James’ entry, he’s advising against the viking strategy.  Alas, we won’t be setting sail anytime soon, sorry to break the bad news.


554

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 21:18 | #

Just a little mop up duty is all that’s needed.

“Taste and relativity have not been aspects of the problem - this is a red herring.  An example of a “generalization with substance” would be, whether true or false: “organisms identifiable as “cats” are conspecific”.”

Your example is a red herring, that people disagree on what is of “recognizable substance” is patently obvious.  In fact, this kind of disagreement happens all the time even amongst particle physicists.  Granted, these disagreements never take place over such trivial fare as the conspecificity of two identifiable cats.

We are not here in the capacity of particle physicists - hence my example - which is ever more true in regard to what must be discussed for our purposes: social phenomena that admit of recognizable patterns without argument over “substance”.  And even in regard to physics, my point stands in that we must have something of substance or a substance, in the first place, even in order to argue over its “recognizability” - as is not the issue in the second place.

“Also, you are the very one who has claimed that, “These sorts of epistemological criteria are always self-refuting as they can’t satisfy their own standards.”

The problem is that if we must create an epistemological criterion for philosophical claims then by parity of reasoning we must also have a criterion for that criterion and so on.  The only way to resolve the situation is to have a criterion that satisfies itself at some step in the logic, which is almost certainly impossible and thus renders the whole epistemological project self-refuting (or self-defeating).

This is familiar, fashionable, and incorrect analysis.  This is based on the simultaneous requirement for absolute rigor and unexceptional applicability that we have already discussed as an unrealistic and unscientific specification.  If epistemological criteria are formulated undogmatically and falsifiably, they admit of exceptions to their rules, but nevertheless assist resistance of academic anarchy, such as is being seen around the celebratory bonfires of the old dogmas.

Finally, an oasis of truth.  You’re correct, science is a messy patchwork, which is why there is no grand epistemological standard that holds it all together.  Scientists don’t think about epistemology when they’re trying to uncover the truth about the world, such things are invariably developed on a post-hoc basis (if it all) and are always provisional.  Popper set about his efforts precisely because he was unhappy with the scientists’ lack of epistemological care.

We agree.  Nevertheless, a post-modern patchwork of epistemological principles, in place of the grand formulation and paralleling the circumstance of the sciences, can and must be brought to bear when conflicts arise. I assume that you are not an epistemological anarchist and so exercise some sort of discipline.

Anyway, you’re the one who brought epistemological considerations into this debate.

We are addressing your “truths beyond” - an epistemological controversy.

“But when it was pointed out that merely logical truth was not relevant to the larger discussion, you introduced the second argument (FWT) under the false pretense that it conformed to the specifications of the first argument (as to “going beyond”) - which it manifestly did not.”

Huh?  Nothing was pointed out as I have no idea what “specifications” you are talking about.  As I said earlier:

[Notus;] “The arguments are theoretical lines of evidence for the fact that certain systems have explanatory limitations in accounting for certain phenomena, that the explanatory truth for such phenomena must lie somewhere else finishes the job.”

This is pathetic - you have forgotten the argument, even after the point under pursuit was quoted to you.  And again I point out that only your first (Godelian) “argument” corresponds to your contention, just recited, and then merely trivially - and that the second, non-trivial, example (FWT), adduced because of the triviality of the first, does not.

If we can’t use these tools to find the relevant explanatory truth then it stands to reason that such truth is beyond the scope of our tools.  QED

You are so turned around that you are making my argument for me and contradicting your own.

So let me quickly affirm this ironclad demonstration, before you change your mind and resume your error.


555

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 21:43 | #

Oh no, my dear NN.  We are not chaotic rag dolls who violate the principle of causality [Daniel take note, this was Edwards’ mistaken definition of free will] but beings who make free decisions.  If you want more clarification on this point you can watch Conway’s lectures online.

———————————————————————————————————————————————————

“...if indeed we humans have free will, then elementary particles already have their own small share of this valuable commodity.”

....

“It is the axiom MIN that contains this assumption that an experimenter can make a “free” choice, which is to say a choice that is independent of the past history of the universe,...”

———————————————————————————————————————————————————

I take both of these elements of your own essay to contradict you.

(1) Is not the shared “valuable commodity” of elementary particles merely (indeterminate) “freedom” - or are we to believe that they have “will” as well?

(2) If “experimenters” are free of the past history of the universe, I take that to mean that they are free of causality.  In either case, my point was not that ragdolls violate the principle of causality, but that their “freedom” has not been shown to be an expression of their “will,” whether their behavior is determinate or indeterminate.


556

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 21:56 | #

Why would we ever need to know who we are [free will-wise] if we’re going to think about politics?

[from your previous comment:]

Let me illustrate a gap in your thinking by bringing to your attention the matter of free will.  It is one of the most fundamental and essential aspects of the human experience and yet neither science nor any riff on Nietzsche can explain it; not now, not ever.

I think it best that you leave political-economy to me, if you are so burdened.


557

Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:03 | #

Neo,

So your Iron Law is misconceived, since the modern ideologies are not “intellectually-derived” in other than pretense - and have an “imperative” because they are impulse-driven rather than the product of a calculus.

We have already established that, like Pol Pot and Hitler, you are not reasoning from the fundamental of being.  You do not even know what it is.  Since you do not predicate your argument for barbarian aristocracy upon any extrapolate of being, for example life interests such as reproduction and continuity, you, too, are commencing from a faith position.

You are driven by faith-values.  Your teleology is fantastic ... not a possible result in life.  You are a religionist.  Your claim to absolute reason is a sham, and in any case is incapable of cognising reality as I have already explained.


558

Posted by Sam Davidson on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:18 | #

I wish one of these spontaneous debates would cover orthodox Marxism. That’s where I’m a viking.


559

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:19 | #

NN,

We are not here in the capacity of particle physicists…

Correct, we are here in the capacity of philosophers who are arguing over the epistemological admissibility of propositional claims.

And even in regard to physics, my point stands…

What can we say about the “recognizable substance” of gravitational fields?  The positivist has no need for them yet others protest.  The same goes for virtual particles, elementary scalar bosons, parallel universes, and those infamous 1-dimensional strings; they each have their home in a theory that might otherwise be tested if not in our microscopes.

I repeat myself, what is “recognizably” anything is a matter of individual taste.

This is based on the simultaneous requirement for absolute rigor and unexceptional applicability…

Correct.

I assume that you are not an epistemological anarchist and so exercise some sort of discipline.

And you would be right.  I rely on the informal standards of common sense and good taste, which vary considerably from discipline to discipline.  I never try to explicitly formulate any of this epistemological crap.

And again I point out that only your first (Godelian) “argument” corresponds to your contention, just recited, and then merely trivially - and that the second, non-trivial, example (FWT), adduced because of the triviality of the first, does not.

By what criterion are you deciding that the first argument “corresponds to my contention” while the second one does not?

You are so turned around that you are making my argument for me and contradicting your own.

I am not turned around, if such seems to be the case then it’s because you have failed to grasp the exquisite subtlety of my thinking, which is perfectly understandable.


560

Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:19 | #

We are addressing your “truths beyond” - an epistemological controversy.

Esoterica is only normality seen from ordinariness ... psychological holisticism glimpsed from fracture.


561

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:23 | #

NN: I think it best that you leave political-economy to me, if you are so burdened.

Yes, I’ll gladly take the meaning of life and cede to you the technocratic leftovers.  wink


562

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:39 | #

NN,

I take both of these elements of your own essay to contradict you.

No they don’t, you have really stepped in it now.

Freedom from (read, mathematical independence) the past history of the physical universe is not the same thing as freedom from causality.  The latter is a metaphysically stronger claim than the former [take note, Daniel].

(1) Is not the shared “valuable commodity” of elementary particles merely (indeterminate) “freedom” - or are we to believe that they have “will” as well?

I highly doubt that the particles have any “will” per se, but I do expect them to exhibit free behavior.

(2) If “experimenters” are free of the past history of the universe, I take that to mean that they are free of causality.

Independence from the past history of the universe and independence from the past history of the physical universe are two different things old boy.

In either case, my point was not that ragdolls violate the principle of causality, but that their “freedom” has not been shown to be an expression of their “will,” whether their behavior is determinate or indeterminate.

If the choices of our will are indeed free then it becomes a matter of common sense to conclude that “freedom” is an expression of our will.


563

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:40 | #

“Do people behave differently, in your eyes, now that you have “explained” it?

“Are you able to modify or better anticipate their behavior by having reduced it…

“And one does not need to reduce/explain phenomena in order to note their pattern.

“Personally, I’m doing quite nicely by *having* a will and not needing to *explain* it.  Do you need a definition/explanation of it in order to have one?”

Why do we do any science at all?  Aren’t the patterns of nature clear: the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, the rivers flow downstream, the seasons come and go in their time, the predator catches his prey, and so on.  Does our discovery of some very sophisticated theories in mathematical physics change any of this?  Of course not, yet pursuing such knowledge has been fruitful to us and has radically altered our understanding of the world.

So please answer my questions as to how our “understanding” of people as the embodiment of “free will” is other than academic, as is your answer, above - where elsewhere you offer it as a sine quo non of the very practical exercise of politics:

Why would we ever need to know who we are [free will-wise] if we’re going to think about politics?

Thus you will need to answer the overlooked questions, above, as to modifying/anticipating/recasting the behavior of the subjects/objects of (not merely academic) political phenomena - by virtue of our “understanding” or otherwise of “free will”.


564

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:53 | #

NN,

If debating you was any more fun it would be a crime.

So please answer my questions as to how our “understanding” of people as the embodiment of “free will” is other than academic, as is your answer, above - where elsewhere you offer it as a sine quo non of the very practical exercise of politics:

I wonder, are there any thinkers beloved on the far right who spent much of their time thinking about the significance of will and being.  Hmm…


565

Posted by Hail on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:54 | #

570 comments and no sign of stopping.

Aiming for a record?


566

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:58 | #

Hail: 570 comments and no sign of stopping.

NN is a rag doll and she will not be satisfied until we have all had it out with her.


567

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:03 | #

Notus,

What can we say about the “recognizable substance” of gravitational fields?  The positivist has no need for them yet others protest.  The same goes for virtual particles, elementary scalar bosons, parallel universes, and those infamous 1-dimensional strings; they each have their home in a theory that might otherwise be tested if not in our microscopes.

I repeat myself, what is “recognizably” anything is a matter of individual taste. 

You have again forgotten the point of the discussion.  The “substance” that I was requiring (initially of daniel) was that of “an argument in substance” about a potential truth presently beyond our knowledge - not an argument about a putative substance/theoretical entity and its recognizability.  So you have failed to dispute my point.

By what criterion are you deciding that the first argument “corresponds to my contention” while the second one does not?

The presence and absence of that which you attribute to them, specifically, “the fact that…the explanatory truth for such phenomena must lie somewhere else [“the beyond”] finishes the job”.  This seems to characterize your first and trivial “argument” - but not the second and non-trivial example.

I am not turned around, if such seems to be the case then it’s because you have failed to grasp the exquisite subtlety of my thinking, which is perfectly understandable.

And because it is perfectly understandable, it is evident that you are turned around and forgetful of the point.


568

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:06 | #

Jimmy,

Reread James’ entry, he’s advising against the viking strategy.  Alas, we won’t be setting sail anytime soon, sorry to break the bad news.

@#$%^&*!!!

Are you kidding me, Notus? I’ve already got my outfit picked out, and ordered a pole axe from the SCA web store!

This always happens to me, and I hate it. Hate it. Hate it.

Now do you see why I never get of this stupid eye-color island?  The raid was a conflation. The wedding is off. And my frickin’ dog just chewed up Time and Being.

I should have known better. The Marr clan has always maintained a dim view of Vikings. Among other shortcomings, their writings end toward ambiguity and their hair too often goes uncut.

Cuchulain could have whipped Thor’s butt any day of the week, (including Thursday).

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to practice the bagpipes.


569

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:18 | #

So please answer my questions as to how our “understanding” of people as the embodiment of “free will” is other than academic, as is your answer, above - where elsewhere you offer it as a sine quo non of the very practical exercise of politics:

I wonder, are there any thinkers beloved on the far right who spent much of their time thinking about the significance of will and being.  Hmm…

Your sarcasm is inappropriate:

You were asked for answers to questions having implications for politics, which you quoted and then ignored by answering as though those considerations were merely academic.

Then you were asked to reconcile your previous statement that the point under discussion has vital implications for thinking about politics, and were asked to go back and finally answer the questions that bear on that latter contention.

Rather than answer or concede, you now pretend that the point is otherwise than it was.


570

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:35 | #

NN,

You have again forgotten the point of the discussion.  The “substance” that I was requiring (initially of daniel) was that of “an argument in substance” about a potential truth presently beyond our knowledge - not an argument about a putative substance/theoretical entity and its recognizability.  So you have failed to dispute my point.

Hehe.  If I have failed to dispute your point it’s because you aren’t making one.  Remember this:

NN: there remain potential “truths”...but until we formulate them they are not truths

NW: What does “formulate them” mean?  This seems hopelessly vague.

NN: By “formulate” I mean provide a generalization with recognizable substance.

Suppose I claim that gravitational fields and/or virtual particles and/or elementary scalar bosons really do exist.  Does the “formulation” of the existence of these concepts provide a “generalization with recognizable substance”?  I submit that it’s a matter of taste; to wit, the ultra-positivist leans one way and the realist another.

The presence and absence of that which you attribute to them, specifically, “the fact that…the explanatory truth for such phenomena must lie somewhere else [“the beyond”] finishes the job”.  This seems to characterize your first and trivial “argument” - but not the second and non-trivial example.

It categorizes the second as well, I just didn’t make it obvious.  Specifically, it is argued that we have free will and, therefore, that the outcome of a class of suitably constructed “triple experiments” is independent of the past history of the physical universe.  Ergo, the explanation for the free behavior that the twinned particles exhibit in these experiments is beyond the reach of physics.  QED

You were asked for answers to questions having implications for politics, which you quoted and then ignored by answering as though those considerations were merely academic.

Goodness.  How can we consider our political theories as being anything other than incomplete if they don’t take into consideration the human condition, which includes the nature of its will and being.  This strikes me as being obvious.

I suppose it might be conceded that there is no specific political reason for why we should consider these things but the same also goes for natural philosophy in the time of its infancy.  In the beginning, I would imagine that people investigated the natural world because they were curious, the true significance (political and economic) of their investigations wouldn’t become apparent until much later on.


571

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:45 | #

Freedom from (read, mathematical independence) the past history of the physical universe is not the same thing as freedom from causality.  The latter is a metaphysically stronger claim than the former [take note, Daniel].

Thank you for that clarification.  I will pursue this matter at a latter date.

”(1) Is not the shared “valuable commodity” of elementary particles merely (indeterminate) “freedom” - or are we to believe that they have “will” as well?”

I highly doubt that the particles have any “will” per se, but I do expect them to exhibit free behavior.

Thus they do not have the “free will” that they are supposed to have shared with us, and thus that which has been shared is not “free will”. QED

If the choices of our will are indeed free then it becomes a matter of common sense to conclude that “freedom” is an expression of our will.

You failed to show that the freedom of our “choices” (technically, will-less freedom (as “shared”) as to alternative actions) is the freedom of our will.  Thus your premise, that we have “choices of the will,” is unsupported, and your conclusion fails.


572

Posted by Notus Wind on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:59 | #

NN,

Thus they do not have the “free will” that they are supposed to have shared with us, and thus that which has been shared is not “free will”.

In the triple experiment, the individual experimenter and twinned particle share a common freedom not a common will, use some common sense.

You failed to show that the freedom of our “choices” (technically, will-less freedom (as “shared”) as to alternative actions) is the freedom of our will.  Thus your premise, that we have “choices of the will,” is unsupported, and your conclusion fails.

Typically, the will is the faculty of choice by definition.  If our choices are free then that freedom must come from our faculty of choice, the will.  The logic couldn’t be more clear, it’s just a matter of definition chasing.


573

Posted by Guessedworker on Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:59 | #

Notus,

Will is a question of volition.  Freedom is characteristic of self-consciousness.  What are the implications, then, for a will that is free?


574

Posted by Notus Wind on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 00:12 | #

GW,

Will is a question of volition.  Freedom is characteristic of self-consciousness.  What are the implications, then, for a will that is free?

The kind of freedom that I’m discussing with NN is of a highly technical sort and is almost surely not the same freedom that you’re referring to with respect to consciousness.  In fact, almost nothing is being said in this debate that I’m having that touches on the nature of the relationship between will, volition, and consciousness.  Huge tracts of theoretical ground, which might interest you more, are up til now left untouched.


575

Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 00:26 | #

I know that.  But you are feeding Neo’s need for definition, which is one of his defence mechanisms.  He is dragging you into a terminological debate in which the poverty of his self and the non-utility of his prescriptions are not at issue.


576

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 00:35 | #

What are the implications, then, for a will that is free?

I honestly don’t know, GW, but the fact that NN left you standing at the Alter has got to hurt, and it’s noble of you to hide your embitterment.

I wish I could say the same for myself.

I feel like such a fool. How could I ever have been so stupid as to believe in some kind of midwestern, flat land, sod-bustin’, corn pone, computer programin’, long haired, hippy-lookin, Libertarian, Viking from Iowa?

I feel like one of those poor women who read Bridges of Madison County without realizing it was fiction.

Hopefully you and I will become closer as a result of these seemingly predestined and mutually cataclysmic events. This would be especially likely if were to ban James from posting any more of his toxically ambiguous propaganda on this site???


577

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 00:52 | #

Hehe.  If I have failed to dispute your point it’s because you aren’t making one.  Remember this:

NN: there remain potential “truths”...but until we formulate them they are not truths

NW: What does “formulate them” mean?  This seems hopelessly vague.

NN: By “formulate” I mean provide a generalization with recognizable substance.

Suppose I claim that gravitational fields and/or virtual particles and/or elementary scalar bosons really do exist.  Does the “formulation” of the existence of these concepts provide a “generalization with recognizable substance”?  I submit that it’s a matter of taste; to wit, the ultra-positivist leans one way and the realist another.

The ultra-positivist is incorrect, for our purposes in having a substantial question to address as to a potential “truth beyond”.  Thus it is not matter of taste in the context of our discussion, where otherwise it might be.

It categorizes the second as well, I just didn’t make it obvious.  Specifically, it is argued that we have free will and, therefore, that the outcome of a class of suitably constructed “triple experiments” is independent of the past history of the physical universe.  Ergo, the explanation for the free behavior that the twinned particles exhibit in these experiments is beyond the reach of physics.  QED

Thank you, again, for that further, vital, clarification.  Your second “argument” is thus remedied as to a preliminary objection.

However:

As we have already discussed with regard to telepathy, and as is true of many other mysteries, mere phenomena are not truths, as was the point.  Your “the explanation” unwarrantedly assumes that there *is* one and/or tells us nothing of its description, as again is the point,  Your “explanation” is thus a “figment beyond” and not a “truth beyond” - even in prospect, if we so understand your phrase “the reach of physics” - and unless you have escaped the limitations of science, a’la GW, and have had a vision of it.  Failing that, it is less than a ghost.

Goodness.  How can we consider our political theories as being anything other than incomplete if they don’t take into consideration the human condition, which includes the nature of its will and being.  This strikes me as being obvious.

I will concede that they are trivially incomplete, as we await the answers to my questions pertaining to the question of a significant “gap”.

I suppose it might be conceded that there is no specific political reason for why we should consider these things.


578

Posted by danielj on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 01:33 | #

We are not chaotic rag dolls who violate the principle of causality [Daniel take not, this was Edwards’ mistaken definition of free will] but beings who make free decisions.

I’m taking notes.


579

Posted by Thorn on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 01:59 | #

OMG, my head hurts!

Who here cannot agree this blog has gone downhill as of late?

The fact is, imo, it lost its mojo ever since Fred Scrooby left the building.


580

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 02:14 | #

“Thus they do not have the “free will” that they are supposed to have shared with us, and thus that which has been shared is not “free will”.”

In the triple experiment, the individual experimenter and twinned particle share a common freedom not a common will, use some common sense.

It’s the failure of the logic of your own argument.  You are discussing the freedom without the will, as you continue to affirm.

“You failed to show that the freedom of our “choices” (technically, will-less freedom (as “shared”) as to alternative actions) is the freedom of our will.  Thus your premise, that we have “choices of the will,” is unsupported, and your conclusion fails.”

Typically, the will is the faculty of choice by definition.  If our choices are free then that freedom must come from our faculty of choice, the will.  The logic couldn’t be more clear, it’s just a matter of definition chasing.

Thank you for making a choice of definitions for us with which we might rightly disagree - thus illustrating for us the pointlessness of discussing “free will”.  And for assuming the truth of your proposition, by definition.  It seems to me, rather, that whether will and “choice” (as none but the exercise thereof) are to be equated, for purposes of your train of logic, is a part of the question before us, and is not to be assumed.

For I placed “choices” in quotes because your argument seems to imply a definition of choice that involves will-lessness (or does not necessarily imply an exercise of the “faculty”).  As in the micro-world, so in the macro world, “sharing” itself with the former, which is will-less in what it has in common.

But this is beside the point represented by my unanswered questions as to the quality and quantity of the putative “gap” that prompted this discussion.


581

Posted by Notus Wind on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 03:30 | #

NN,

With respect to the epistemological part of our discussion, however we may draw the lines of our disagreement you must concede that whether a particular “formulation” represents a generalization with “recognizable substance” is a matter of subjective opinion.  Regardless of what we’re discussing, the criterion of “recognizable substance” contains no objective meaning.

Thank you, again, for that further, vital, clarification.  Your second “argument” is thus remedied as to a preliminary objection.

You’re welcome.

Your “the explanation” unwarrantedly assumes that there *is* one

I tend to accept as a properly basic metaphysical belief that all phenomena worth considering have an explanation of some kind.  To wit, I think you’re putting yourself in an uncomfortable position if you admit the reality of something on the order of telepathy but deny that it has an explanation; that just seems wrong.  While I acknowledge that not everyone may share this conviction I imagine that most will.

It’s the failure of the logic of your own argument.  You are discussing the freedom without the will, as you continue to affirm.

It’s all implied, the experimenters make a free choice when running the triple experiment via their will.  There is no failure in the logic.

Thank you for making a choice of definitions for us with which we might rightly disagree - thus illustrating for us the pointlessness of discussing “free will”.

The discussion isn’t pointless.  I hold to the definitions and properly basic metaphysical beliefs that I do because they seem reasonable to me and I imagine most others as well.  If you wish to disagree with them then that’s fine.


582

Posted by Notus Wind on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 03:34 | #

danielj: I’m taking notes.

Glad to see it.  smile

For what it’s worth, you’re really getting my view about free will in these comments.


583

Posted by Grimoire on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 06:00 | #

The problem everyone here has with NN, is that you disagree with his conclusions and consider them false, which is demonstrated so aptly by GW’s laundry list of ad hominem and ‘imagined’ eviscerating ‘victories’  - that you need to shut your eyes to the fact his precepts are all indelibly sound.

Rather than work with him on this, or any man who shares our cause - he is anathematized and huge puffs of smoke are blown out your asses in a vain effort to discredit him. This is all together too ‘counter revolutionary’ for the ‘Ontology’ Project - (a project I was once enthusiastic to work on…until it became apparent that a particularist tendency would be to piggyback in a certain perspectives favorite and self-serving myths -  teutonizing British propaganda - more bowdlerization and bastardization of other serious labours for truth and insight…. for the creation of more pleasing propaganda.

The ontology project is above all gritty, nasty truth because it is good for everyone and fair tempered like a misty morning. Adherents of this super secret script, like Gworker, are above all consistency and logic. BECAUSE THEY KNOW IF YOUR AUTHENTIC OR NOT….

You better watch out!
You better take care!
Cuz MR’s Dasein lite is coming to town.
He knows when you’ve been bad or good.
So be good for goodness sake…..!


584

Posted by Guessedworker on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 10:14 | #

Grim,

BECAUSE THEY KNOW IF YOUR AUTHENTIC OR NOT….

No one disputes Neo’s intelligence and learning.  There are, though, one or two little problems.

1. He posits the supremacy of his Weltanschauung on being an exemplar of ruthless logic but his final value is, as far as anyone can see, faith.

2. But, then, this is to treat him as a healthy and normal interlocutor.  In fact, he exhibits a need for attention and personal validation that is so consuming it nullifies all the utility that undoubted intelligence and learning might have had for our cause.  It is hard to imagine anything more certain to be fruitless than a pathological and self-deluding projection of need onto a canvass of superhumanity (and, btw, it is also hard to imagine why you would defend Neo’s abuse of logic to heel away inwardly from his pathology).

3. He debates dishonestly, never rising above the airy and contentless dismissal of final values he, like you, does not understand, and reifying epistemological objections in order to avoid coming into contact with the pathology from which his prescriptions actually derive.

4. His prescriptions - “the Classic combination of intellect and arms” - are vile and murderous, and exhibit a hatred of the common man.  One wonders why.

Doubtless there are other problems.  But that’s as much time as I want to spend thinking about him.


585

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 14:16 | #

Notus,

With respect to the epistemological part of our discussion, however we may draw the lines of our disagreement you must concede that whether a particular “formulation” represents a generalization with “recognizable substance” is a matter of subjective opinion.  Regardless of what we’re discussing, the criterion of “recognizable substance” contains no objective meaning.

I well understand how and why this is the physicist’s orientation to the matter.

It still appears that you are misunderstanding the sense in which I am using the term “substance”.  I do not mean it the sense of whether gravity is a recognizable substance - I mean it in the sense of whether an argument (e.g., over whether gravity is a recognizable substance) has substance - which that argument has, as opposed to saying nothing at all - for purposes of addressing the “existence” of “truths beyond science/logic”.

“Your “the explanation” unwarrantedly assumes that there *is* one.”

I tend to accept as a properly basic metaphysical belief that all phenomena worth considering have an explanation of some kind.

But that is derived from the pattern of the progress of science short of its intrinsic limitations.  Beyond that, you do not know whereof you speak, in any respect, other than that you neither have a basis for characterizing anything beyond the barrier as an “explanation” -  nor have a sound basis for speculation in projecting a progressive tendency which you insist can no longer hold.

To wit, I think you’re putting yourself in an uncomfortable position if you admit the reality of something on the order of telepathy but deny that it has an explanation; that just seems wrong.

But you have just performed a demonstration of the intrinsically irreducible in regard of phenomena that display non-locality and non-temporality - so what’s the problem?

[For the gallery: an “explanation” is the reduction of a phenomenon to constituent elements of known properties, such that we “understand” it by virtue of that familiarity.]

While I acknowledge that not everyone may share this conviction I imagine that most will.

I restrain myself.

“It’s the failure of the logic of your own argument.  You are discussing the freedom without the will, as you continue to affirm.”

It’s all implied, the experimenters make a free choice when running the triple experiment via their will.  There is no failure in the logic.

How do you know they are making a “free choice via their will” - now that you, to judge by your presumably non-tautological phrasing, implicitly recognize the distinction that others may make between “choice” defined merely as the exercise of the “faculty” of will, and “choice” as the universe of selection-making processes of which choice/will is but a subset?

Also, and to repeat, it seems that this latter consideration is an intrinsic aspect of that which is to be decided here.

And further, there is the scent of a circumlocution in your thesis (“if we have free will, then…” [will defined as choice - choice defined as will]) that you might sniff out and check for “substance”.

“Thank you for making a choice of definitions for us with which we might rightly disagree - thus illustrating for us the pointlessness of discussing “free will”.”

The discussion isn’t pointless.  I hold to the definitions and properly basic metaphysical beliefs that I do because they seem reasonable to me and I imagine most others as well.  If you wish to disagree with them then that’s fine.

Do they still seem reasonable after reviewing my objections, as above?


586

Posted by Notus Wind on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 16:39 | #

NN,

I mean it in the sense of whether an argument…has substance

Yes, it is still a subjective criterion even then, and this subjectivity particularly presents itself at the level of philosophical argument, which is how most of us reason if we’re honest.

But that is derived from the pattern of the progress of science short of its intrinsic limitations.

No it is not, it is derived from within as beings who experience the world, as is the case with all properly basic metaphysical beliefs.  It is where we all start from as babes, even the superhuman ones.

For example, the Ancient Greeks knew that the natural world followed rational principles that could be discovered but they had no idea what they were, either in their origin or substance.  However, in spite of their perfect ignorance on this subject - not having access to the pattern of scientific progress that we have today - they knew that the natural world could be explained somehow.

Beyond that, you do not know whereof you speak…

Doesn’t matter.  We know even if we do not know how, it’s as good a starting point as any.

I have spent many hours wandering in esoteric abstract landscapes and no longer feel the need to account for how I can do this for I know, with certainty, that I can do this.  Some mysteries must be accepted.

For the gallery: an “explanation” is the reduction…such that we “understand” it by virtue of that familiarity.

You are mistaken, an “explanation” is a metaphysical thing and could very well go beyond our ability to understand it.

How do you know they are making a “free choice via their will”

Common sense.  You may consider the phrasing tautological if you must.

And further, there is the scent of a circumlocution in your thesis (“if we have free will, then…”

There is no circularity here, of that I am certain.

Yes, it might be more accurate to say, “If the choices of our will are free then…” but that seems too awkward.  For better or worse, the expression comes down to us as “free will” and that’s why I use it.

Do they still seem reasonable after reviewing my objections, as above?

Of course they do.


587

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:58 | #

Dear Neo,


Ya better watch out. Ya better not cry.
Ya better not pout. I’m telling’ you why.


Hell hath no fury like a volitionist scorned.
Wrath is predestined, so please be forewarned.
Precipitous spinsterhood will not go unmourned.
As long as your logic remains undeformed.

Ask God to help you. Forget about Nietzche
G Wanker is pissed, and out to impeach ya.

He claims you spend little time in his thought.
I suspect that in fact he thinks of else naught.
You are his fixation. In his lights you are caught.
I know you hate running, but think that you ought.

With the Supreme Weltanschauung under such fire,
There’s no disgrace in escaping his ire.

For who can withstand this rage authentic
without recourse to the urge to repent it.
Take no shame. You could not prevent it.
Wed as he is to fallacies intrinsic.


588

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 18:55 | #

Notus,

Yes, it is still a subjective criterion even then, and this subjectivity particularly presents itself at the level of philosophical argument, which is how most of us reason if we’re honest.

Does the proposition, “gravity has substance”  have more substance than the absence of any proposition at all?  If you think not - if you can make no qualitative distinction between the two - your notion of “subjectivity” is merely tautological in the sense of being all-inclusive of propositions.

“But that is derived from the pattern of the progress of science short of its intrinsic limitations.”

No it is not, it is derived from within as beings who experience the world, as is the case with all properly basic metaphysical beliefs.  It is where we all start from as babes, even the superhuman ones.

I thought you were justifying your belief in rational, rather than popular terms.  I will accept your concession thus that you cannot support your point - and that you are the victim of a variant of the popular “Real World” delusion against which I, and Nietzsche before me, sagely warned.

“Beyond that, you do not know whereof you speak…

Doesn’t matter.  We know even if we do not know how, it’s as good a starting point as any.

No, we have come to an ending point, as is the point.  Thus you lack the precedent upon which you now rely.

I have spent many hours wandering in esoteric abstract landscapes and no longer feel the need to account for how I can do this for I know, with certainty, that I can do this.  Some mysteries must be accepted.

Shall we refer to this as the “GW Maneuver”?  Private, ineffable knowledge - adduced as reasons for believing (excuse me: “knowing”) as one does.  So, in the end - and not the beginning - you have implicitly conceded that you have proved only to yourself that which I have allegedly forgotten.  Good Show.

“For the gallery: an “explanation” is the reduction…such that we “understand” it by virtue of that familiarity.”

You are mistaken, an “explanation” is a metaphysical thing and could very well go beyond our ability to understand it.

I guess you are serious - so I won’t ask whether you are.  More of the Real World intruding into this dimension.  We are to regard as an “explanation” that which in principle is beyond our understanding.

So, we might ask, at this point: what do we do with ineffable “truths” and incomprehensible “explanations”?

I suppose we must leave it to Notus and GW to help us participate in their inward *visions*.

How do you know they are making a “free choice via their will”

Common sense.  You may consider the phrasing tautological if you must.

In which case you merely assume your conclusion, and wasted your time employing other than “common sense”.

Yes, it might be more accurate to say, “If the choices of our will are free then…” but that seems too awkward.  For better or worse, the expression comes down to us as “free will” and that’s why I use it.

But my dear Notus, by your own choice of definition, there are no choices other than of our will, so you do not escape your tautology.  And if you choose to accept that the choices of our will are a subset of choices, you are forced into making a distinction that involves you in a circumlocution or a failure - hence the requirement for your tautological version.


589

Posted by NeoNietzsche on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 19:22 | #

Dear Neo,

Ya better watch out. Ya better not cry.
Ya better not pout. I’m telling’ you why.

Hell hath no fury like a volitionist scorned.
Wrath is predestined, so please be forewarned.
Precipitous spinsterhood will not go unmourned.
As long as your logic remains undeformed.

Ask God to help you. Forget about Nietzche
G Wanker is pissed, and out to impeach ya.

He claims you spend little time in his thought.
I suspect that in fact he thinks of else naught.
You are his fixation. In his lights you are caught.
I know you hate running, but think that you ought.

With the Supreme Weltanschauung under such fire,
There’s no disgrace in escaping his ire.

For who can withstand this rage authentic
without recourse to the urge to repent it.
Take no shame. You could not prevent it.
Wed as he is to fallacies intrinsic.

Bravo - and thanks again.  Another worthy creation.

You levitate as you deflate.  Much appreciation.


590

Posted by Notus Wind on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:09 | #

NN,

If you think not - if you can make no qualitative distinction between the two - your notion of “subjectivity” is merely tautological in the sense of being all-inclusive of propositions.

Of course, we can make qualitative distinctions concerning the substance of arguments, but only at an informal level.

But my dear Notus, by your own choice of definition, there are no choices other than of our will, so you do not escape your tautology.

Your point couldn’t be more pedantic.  Is it a naughty thing for me to conflate what I understand to be a matter of common sense and what I construct to be a tautology if pressed?  Yes, but it’s a small thing, like telling white lies to loved ones.

For the record I am, as a provision matter, embracing the tautology and not trying to escape it.

I thought you were justifying your belief in rational, rather than popular terms.
...
Shall we refer to this as the “GW Maneuver”?  Private, ineffable knowledge - adduced as reasons for believing (excuse me: “knowing”) as one does.  So, in the end - and not the beginning - you have implicitly conceded that you have proved only to yourself that which I have allegedly forgotten.
...
I suppose we must leave it to Notus and GW to help us participate in their inward *visions*.

You shake your fist at the universe, “Why must I be expected to figure out some things on my own!  Why can’t you reveal yourself to me bare-assed and on terms that can be objectively evaluated!”  I sympathize, life can be frustrating like that.

However, the pattern is clear, just as all symbolic reasoning must begin with some axioms so must all philosophical reasoning begin with some properly basic metaphysical statements.  It is the rational man who lays out everything on the table - for the consideration of others - and from there develops his thinking in a consistent manner, leaving nothing hidden behind the Nietzschean cloak.  For what we accept is always a matter of personal choice - a lesson for which I am made repeatedly aware anytime I fail to reason someone out of a position(s) that they are determined not give up.

you are the victim of a variant of the popular “Real World” delusion against which I, and Nietzsche before me, sagely warned.

You have nothing to fear, grand horizons await.


591

Posted by Notus Wind on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:10 | #

NN: Bravo - and thanks again.  Another worthy creation.

You levitate as you deflate.  Much appreciation.

I concur, Jimmy’s poetry is brilliant.


592

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Tue, 16 Nov 2010 21:29 | #

Thanks guys. I’ve long been the apple of my own eye, but all the glory derives from our noble host and most worthy muse, Gracious Whippinboy.


593

Posted by danielj on Wed, 17 Nov 2010 04:01 | #

However, the pattern is clear, just as all symbolic reasoning must begin with some axioms so must all philosophical reasoning begin with some properly basic metaphysical statements.

Indeed. ALL reasoning begins with basic metaphysical presuppositions no?

Denying metaphysics presupposes it and requires engaging in it… Sort of a paradox.


594

Posted by Grimoire on Wed, 17 Nov 2010 05:54 | #

Gworker:


1. He posits the supremacy of his Weltanschauung on being an exemplar of ruthless logic but his final value is, as far as anyone can see, faith.

The same could be correctly said of yourself. 100% of the ire expressed here against Nietzsche is of that most mediocre and commonplace faith:  personal inclination, conformity to consensus, wishful thinking, and academic ignorance…  in some cases out and out stupidity and distortion.

You could take this all in a spirit of Kameradschaft, and debate the issues on their merit alone…. NN’s outlook, criticism and even negative input are still of high value and important in their own right. ... if not vital to true understanding.
Your animus is disturbing and adds some confirmation to questionable tendencies of your own in terms of partiality, and reasons for it..
My suggestion is that you leave animus to those of us skilled in zoology and return to that paragon of sparkling wit and bonhomie that once delighted the fin de siècle of nationalism’s bright young things.

2. But, then, this is to treat him as a healthy and normal interlocutor.  In fact, he exhibits a need for attention and personal validation that is so consuming it nullifies all the utility that undoubted intelligence and learning might have had for our cause.  It is hard to imagine anything more certain to be fruitless than a pathological and self-deluding projection of need onto a canvass of superhumanity (and, btw, it is also hard to imagine why you would defend Neo’s abuse of logic to heel away inwardly from his pathology).

These ad hominem are unworthy and tactically unfortunate. They also accomplish nothing and reveal more about you,  than your victim. Even be this true, and it is not - this is not the way to handle the matter. Rearm yourself with flawless etiquette and honesty. Give the man his due - do not judge rashly nor fixate on negativity nor refuse to concede a point that is sound. These are things we demand for ourselves and it is niggardly and unworthy of you to act against the grain on these standards of conduct…
which we expect and demand of you…to your credit.

3. He debates dishonestly, never rising above the airy and contentless dismissal of final values he, like you, does not understand, and reifying epistemological objections in order to avoid coming into contact with the pathology from which his prescriptions actually derive.

The statement ‘ dismissal of final values he, like you, does not understand…’ is very unfortunate and undermine rather than reinforces your argument. Rendering examples of clear dogmatism, coupled with accusations of ‘faith’ based (therefore in error) conclusions, are not mere blips on the radar.
You need to entertain the possibility perhaps you do not yet have all the answers…and of what you do have, many are in need of spit and a rag. Even worse, your enemies may turn out to be your truest friends.
The time is now to tack and try another wind to port.

4. His prescriptions - “the Classic combination of intellect and arms” - are vile and murderous, and exhibit a hatred of the common man.  One wonders why.

Familiar with historical reality? I don’t think unflinchingly reading the leaves of history, vile and murderous, or a hatred of the common man. What is with the hyperbole?  Pull yourself together. This is not the conduct of a sportsman. Take a tablet and put on a smile…. and go out and face the firing squad.


595

Posted by Notus Wind on Wed, 17 Nov 2010 06:07 | #

danielj: ALL reasoning begins with basic metaphysical presuppositions no?

Yes, so long as it concerns reality.


596

Posted by Unfashionable Observations on Wed, 17 Nov 2010 07:19 | #

Hunter Wallace keeps taking potshots at MR. He’s filled with rage toward all the white nationalists who have ever hurt his feelings.

He just endorsed Sarah Palin for president. In his new worldview white nationalists are utterly depraved “Daily Kos libruls,” while Republicans and conservatives are heroic figures deserving of unconditional love and loyalty.

It’s almost guaranteed that in a year or two, or maybe sooner, Wallace will do another about-face. You’d think his credibility would be shot by now, but his followers seem to have short memories when it comes to his tantrums.


597

Posted by Unfashionable Observations on Wed, 17 Nov 2010 07:21 | #

Does Hunter Wallace have a job? How is he able to pick up and move at the drop of a hat or spend two months locked up having a psychotic episode?


598

Posted by Leon Haller on Wed, 17 Nov 2010 11:48 | #

So here is where the action is! Over 600 comments (even including some of mine, an eternity ago ...).

I wonder if it’s worth my jumping in ...

If we are to evolve into a real movement, we must learn to shun the cranks, liars and distorters.  I’ve recently adopted a very simple, but stringent rule: if I know for a fact that someone is engaging in misrepresentation or distortion, not simply a misunderstanding based in good faith, then that’s it.  No second chances; strict shunning.  On the internet, we really have no idea who we are dealing with, so protocols must be both simple and clear. (Trainspotter)

I second these comments from Trainspotter.

I would only add my constant plaint: people should try to write clearly wherever possible. Clarity of style is usually coincident with clarity of thought; indeed, the former is often an effect of the latter, and even occasionally a precondition.

I often have difficulty understanding various comments (I could name the worst offenders, but won’t). It is possible that my incomprehension is due to my own inadequacies (which was certainly the case when Notus Wind - a refreshingly clear writer and thinker within the MR community - posted his detailed excursion into original analytic philosophy over the summer), but in the main, given my academic background and usual reading habits, I don’t think so. Frankly, I think a lot of persons here, evincing only passing awareness of the broader currents of intellectual life, like to strike poses as daring, ‘original’ thinkers - often embarrassingly, it must be admitted, as their bold ‘theories’ are so often either wide but of little depth, or merely derivative of positions long held and debated by more serious and better trained parties.

Still more annoying, however, is the penchant many have for employing arcane terminology that is not so much necessarily obscure, as merely and deliberately obscurantist. There is also the problem of the over-employment of unclear metaphors as well as various linguistic tropes intentionally lacking in objective specificity (and thus of limited accessibility to those uninitiated into their in-group meanings).

MR certainly has the potential to be a leading forum for ‘cutting-edge’ analyses of all aspects of the white racial crisis. But to get there, participants should strive as much as possible to be both serious (exceptions for Bismuth, and similar real humorists) in outlook and concern, and disciplined in presentation to the extent of individual abilities. Certain egos need to be deflated a bit, too.


599

Posted by Thorn on Wed, 17 Nov 2010 13:34 | #

In the war of words and ideas, clarity is a high explosive.


600

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 17 Nov 2010 14:59 | #

Grim,

The same could be correctly said of yourself.

Though Jimmy punished me relentlessly for doing so, I argued in various ways, and in terms sufficiently arresting that Neo might actually stop and think, that in isolation the mechanism of intellect makes a piss-poor thought-model of experience, but that:

... physicality, emotion, and thought, when brought into proximity, “make sense”, indeed make experience of human being.  And we are not talking about esoterism.  We are talking about the method as it intrudes into moments of ordinary life and visits upon us what Heidegger really meant by “authenticity”.

And it’s this experience of, if you like, the European animal live in the wave of the present which is our real experience of the collective self, out of which I find that the politics of nationalism truly emerge.  Thus I informed Neo that:

Since you do not predicate your argument for barbarian aristocracy upon any extrapolate of being, for example life interests such as reproduction and continuity, you, too, are commencing from a faith position.

Now, I cannot find the element of faith in this proposition which you claim is there.  Exactly the contrary.  This experience of the collective racial being is no more open to apprehension through the singular, isolated application of higher emotion than it is of Neo’s penetrating intellect.  Apprehension demands this synthesis, and synthesis puts us into the moment and into the experience.

The experience is the irreducible core of my philosophical stand, such as it is, and of my politics.

Your animus is disturbing and adds some confirmation to questionable tendencies of your own in terms of partiality, and reasons for it.

It is right that you should speak so.  In a sense you are under attack.  I am a nationalist revolutionary, not a traditionalist like you and Neo.  Your essential fascism, historically constipated and marginalised as it is, is in the way of my revolution for the European life.  Unthinking slaves to the essentially fascistic will never yield up their fealty, for it would signal the loss of whatever meaning they ascribe through it to themselves.  Some of that motivation is in Neo.  But I do expect thinking men like you to be forced by their own intellectual integrity to address what we are trying so inadequately to say.  I do expect them to slowly begin to understand it, to be tempted to criticise it constructively, to find they can improve it and, finally, to make claim to it and champion it on the real battle-ground of ideas.

These ad hominem are unworthy and tactically unfortunate.

Completely unworthy and a tactical disaster.  Clearly.  Except ... is ad hominem possible if truth is attendant?

You need to entertain the possibility perhaps you do not yet have all the answers

You need to entertain the possibility that I am talking to you precisely for that reason, and not because, basically, I want to talk about myself ad infinitum like your friend.


601

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 17 Nov 2010 15:36 | #

What is your final value, Leon?


602

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Thu, 18 Nov 2010 00:58 | #

Dear Mr. Haller,

participants should strive as much as possible to be both serious (exceptions for Bismuth, and similar real humorists) in outlook and concern, and disciplined…

REAL humorists?

Your comment causes your name to spring to mind as a subject for a future poem, but inasmuch as I am the product of a southern upbringing, I fear mis-rhyming it.

Is it “Howler” as in what Jim Giles’ hounds get to doin’ while he’s tryin to talk on the radio. Or, is is “holler” as in what he has to do to shut ‘em back up?

Don’t worry. I already figured out what your first name rhymes with.  wink


603

Posted by danielj on Thu, 18 Nov 2010 01:17 | #

Does Hunter Wallace have a job? How is he able to pick up and move at the drop of a hat or spend two months locked up having a psychotic episode?

This reminds of an ongoing debate in the punk rock and hardcore scene…

Real Hardcore Kids Have Day Jobs

So do real White Nationalists.


604

Posted by Captainchaos on Thu, 18 Nov 2010 03:58 | #

Gmoire,

You will eventually learn that the English are unerringly your moral betters.  And if you don’t like that, then you are an autistic queer who engages in self abuse all day long, you filthy Kraut.  LOL!


605

Posted by Desmond Jones on Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:07 | #

It’s been an interesting progression from six years ago.

Imagining, I’m afraid, is what things have come to for conservatives.  The aching question which attends their toothless, grovelling subservience to the left, appropriate only to the most cruelly beaten cur, is: how the hell did this rank disaster ever come to pass? ...to my mind, it was the excesses of Nazi Germany that “did for” nationalism in old Europe.  After two world wars in a quarter of a century all the continental nations were defeated in fact and in spirit.  They fled from nationalism as the cause of their sorrows, never thinking that they fled only from themselves and towards transnational oblivion.

But why did the victorious, un-European British also flee?  Our nationalism was no synonym for an absurd racial supremacy.  Racialism, anyway, was entirely separate from nationalism, and given form and tempered by our experience of Empire.  We had no war guilt to bear, beyond the fact that RAF Bomber Command blew the crap out of German cities a propos the designs of “Churchill’s Jew”, Lord Cherwell, and to the chagrin of his nemesis, Solly Zuckermann.  We did not behave ignobly towards our Jews.  Indeed there is said to have been some discord among long-established Jews when newcomers with a very different experience and an overt hatred of the gentile washed up here from Europe in the 1930’s.  Where, then, was the moral necessity to cast our gentle, conservative brand of nationalism into the fire and our own unique claims to identity and to our homeland with it?  How did our national will come to be so enfeebled? [...]

The deeper we get into the racial-egalitarian mire the more probable it is that a reaction, if and when it comes, will be closer in character to the German model of nationalism.  The left may wind up creating the very phenomenon it most despises, known by the very name it so readily hurls at its opponents.  It would be only fitting, I suppose.


606

Posted by Grimoire on Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:47 | #

Gworker:

It is right that you should speak so.  In a sense you are under attack. I am a nationalist revolutionary, not a traditionalist like you and Neo. 

I think not, you are a contemporary who sleepwalks with his head in the clouds because you much prefer things as you would like them, then as they are. Nor are you a nationalist revolutionary…you refuse to sacrifice your infantile illusions and clear your head and prepare for constructive action…. preferring to pose as hard at an idea you have only as a placeholder. A placeholder you fill with cherished illusions.


Your essential fascism, historically constipated and marginalised as it is, is in the way of my revolution for the European life. 

More sequences from the illusion you’re hiding within. You have no revolution for European life. Neither revolutionaries, nor Europeans have any use or desire for half baked fantasies with faux garlandings of ‘loving, authentic…’ etc. bullshit.
This blog is the only place where you can get away with such delirium.

Unthinking slaves to the essentially fascistic will never yield up their fealty, for it would signal the loss of whatever meaning they ascribe through it to themselves.

If one is unconvincing, lists of ad hominem usually bring them right around, and….You’ve described yourself. In Europe we do not discriminate against any ideas - Fascist, Marxist, Capitalist, whathaveyou. It is you who is locked in the hopeless struggle of the propaganda crusade against an idea. A man who fights against reality. Thus you have become the genuine inauthentic, as the inauthentic is the only serviceable weapon against shadows.

But I do expect thinking men like you to be forced by their own intellectual integrity to address what we are trying so inadequately to say.

And I told you, do not even contemplate beginning until you are certain you can part with illusions, and swear an unbreakable oath of honesty. For the work of the deluded and dishonest is easily identified… any labours under this aegis are wasted. Until you do this, the project is stillborn.

You need to entertain the possibility that I am talking to you precisely for that reason, and not because, basically, I want to talk about myself ad infinitum like your friend.

I consider the possibility. However I’d be more convinced of your sincerity if you could debate with my friend on the merits of his argument….rather than ad hominem.


607

Posted by Captainchaos on Thu, 18 Nov 2010 07:00 | #

I’m not sure you get it, Grimbo.  GW’s ostensible world view is irrevocably bound up with what he perceives to be his genetic interests and his ethnic genetic interests.  He professes to come from a long line of atheists - so a secular order would tend to benefit his genetic interests.  The English are genetically more individualistic and bourgeois than are other Europeans - so a “philosophy” which privileges those things would tend to be “Good for the English”.  This is not fucking rocket science.

GW has invited you to use his bandwidth to write what the fuck you want and thus the opportunity to refute his self-serving English “ontology” at your leisure.  What is stopping you but your apparent need to gain his approval for your ideas in advance?  If that is the case, I must question the proposition that you don’t indeed hit for the pink team.


608

Posted by Leon Haller on Thu, 18 Nov 2010 12:30 | #

What is your final value, Leon? (GW)

What do you mean? What matters most to me in general (or in terms of the racial struggle)? Or what is my use, if any, to our movement? Or do you have some other meaning in mind?


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Posted by Guessedworker on Thu, 18 Nov 2010 13:14 | #

Here’s the rest, Desmond.  It’s an attempt to explain the spiritual submission of the old paternalist right in the post-war years, before culture war, before the Holocaust narrative, before globalisation.

But a door to enfeeblement was opened early among the political elite.  Personally, I believe that it was the Allied occupation forces in post-war Germany that fashioned the key.  They did so via a process aimed at the establishment of German collective war guilt when the very existence of such guilt was much in dispute among the Allies themselves.  In the end it was the subject of an arbitrary political decision by the Americans.

Establishing as indisputable fact what could not actually be shown to exist required a heavier punitive model than the public school decency and fair play of the British officer class.  Accordingly, a special morality had to be brought to bear.  Specious and vague in its universalism though it was, it held Germans to standards of tolerance and humanitarianism that no people had been held to before - and were certainly not extended to them by the occupying forces.  German national feeling was utterly crushed beneath it.  Unfortunately for us, it turned out to be contagious.

So picture yourself standing amidst the ravages of Allied bombing and before the great, miraculously untouched edifice of the Kolner Dom.  It is May 1945.  You are a German and you are alive and, insomuch as any German can say so in these times, you are free.  At least, you are not in an Allied internment camp.

But you are not so free that you could skip the film they are showing all over the city.  Bergen-Belsen, shot by a sergeant in a British film unit.  Not pretty, no not pretty.  Really, not pretty at all.  And you are not so free that you can avoid being herded to stand here, in front of that great stone wedding cake, while a high British officer steps onto a wooden dais with a microphone planted in the centre of it.  Beside him is an army interpreter and behind him the City Mayor, a small, thin man new to you, and the Bishop, very grave and as grey as Dom stone itself.  About you and stretching away into the cleared spaces and the dusty streets that lead to this place are thousands of other ordinary Germans waiting dumbly, as ordered, for something to happen.  There are better places in the city to assemble.  But you understand that the Dom is the symbol of German spiritual continuity.  It was always bound to be here that they brought you.

The officer stoops toward the microphone and taps it twice with his right forefinger.  “People of Cologne,” he begins, satisfied that he will be heard, “I am not here to listen to stories of how you did not know what was going on in your country.” He pauses and looks to the interpreter, whose routine monotone contrasts sharply with his own ringing clarity.  “You should all now have seen,” he continues, “film of the type of atrocities that have been committed in your name by your fellow Germans.  They did not merely murder women and children for you” … pause … “They did not merely destroy them as vermin are destroyed” … pause … “as beings of no consequence” … pause while the meaning sinks in … “They were of consequence.  So first they had to be debased and de-humanised as you have seen” … pause … “They had to be made into the sub-humans of Nazi propaganda to prove to the murderers and to you that extermination of the Jew is justified.”

You look about you.  Everywhere is surprise turning to shock.  You can almost feel the last vestiges of intellectual energy dissipating from the crowd.  This is not merely about the consequences of defeat.  It is much, much worse than that.

“This could not have happened,” the officer goes on, “without the support and encouragement of all of you.  Whether that support was tacit or active makes no difference.  You are regarded by me and my fellow serving soldiers and by every decent, tolerant human being as no better than criminals.  There are many standing among you today who will find out what that means to their cost.  The time of reckoning is at hand.”

What did he say then?  What did he say?  You want to turn to the men and women about you and shout out, “Criminal?  Me?  Would he have been satisfied, then, if I had got myself shot as a traitor?  Is that what I should have done?  Or is just being a German enough to damn me?  Well, fuck him.  I’ve nothing to be ashamed of.”

Perhaps the others feel like you.  Or perhaps they are still filled with high hopes for the occupation and expectations of liberality and a relaxed, un-German way of doing things.  But you can see as you look about you that something else is slowly sinking in.  You are not alone in your reaction.  Still, you say nothing.  You understand that silence admits of shame.  But an unsettling feeling in the pit of your stomach tells you that you will be silent again tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

“Though you are no longer our enemy,” the officer is saying, “you cannot be our friend.  We do not consider you fit to associate with decent people.  I have ordered that there shall be zero fraternisation between my men and a single one of you.” Then he pulls himself up to his full height and announces with particular clarity, “Now let there be no doubt … the disease that was Nazism is dead and gone forever.  We govern in this zone and we will establish democracy here.  You will not be permitted to develop your own political expression.  We will rebuild your political life but we will also limit and control it to those ends we, not you, deem appropriate.  Germany shall never again be the belligerent.  We shall make you peaceful and productive.  We shall re-educate you all, adult and child alike.  No German will think or feel as he or she thought or felt in the past, not a single one of you.”

And that, dear reader, must suffice to show how, when and more or less where the blow to the British body politic was struck.  It was felt first as a troubling suspicion that tolerance, if it meant anything, must surely apply to all.  Expressed national sentiment was its opposite and might be the seedbed of genocide anywhere, including here, just as it had been in Hitler’s Germany.  No matter that this special Jewish-American morality was designed solely for the latter.  No matter that what might be lost by us as a result of it had hitherto been a centuries-old bulwark of the nation.  No matter that our nationalism was synonymous with identity, pride and love and with a commonsense understanding of human nature.  No matter that it was not Nazism nor anything to do with it, for God’s sake.  No, a historical process was in train, irresistible in its momentum and attended by a marxised left quick to insist upon its moral authority.

It is the left today, still, that is delivering-up our sense of being to an unwanted cosmopolitan future.  But it did not originate the process.  Neither, really, did “the Jews”.  We did it ourselves.  The context in Britain was difficult, of course.  The old political elite of the right must have seen the socialist straws in the wind in 1944, when Parliament passed the Education Act.  The world was changing.  Their ways of doing things belonged to the past.  Everybody said so.

One way or the other, the elite lost sight of what unites us or became too faint-hearted to fight for it.  The ideological grifters of the left, gentile and Jew alike, were eliding our island nationalism with the worst excesses of the Master Race.  Perhaps a few faithful Tory souls were chafing at the bit.  But in the end they capitulated, probably concluding that they couldn’t fight it with memories of the war still so fresh.

To compound this, over the next decade or so the old paternalist elite resiled from most of its remaining beliefs.  They were inexpedient to a Party searching to remain relevant and in the political centre.  True, it hung on to its electability for another three decades through the application of Keynesianism, corporatism and a deathly silence on Commonwealth immigration.  But that only validated the left’s social egalitarian prescription, which proved to be killing to paternalism.  By 1975 a neoliberal revolution had taken place within Toryism.  But on social issues conservativism lapped at the bowl of liberal-marxian universalism, equality and tolerance.  By the mid 1990s, once the Labour Party “modernised” by adopting neoliberalism itself, the Tories ceased even to be worth electing.  And so, today, this modern, post-socialist left – or call it liberal, progressive, marxian, Blairite - can talk confidently of the postnation, and not a whimper from the benches opposite will be heard.

It follows, then, that we are actually living in the age of the post-conservative, a most cowed and nervous animal.  The saintly Enoch was the last Tory to loose a really good rasp of defiance at the minority-mongers.  Probably, the rest now view even the possibility of barking as a deeply regrettable personal flaw as well, of course, as a sure loser at the polls.  Bark and be damned in the media.  Bark and be distinctly uncomfortable in the presence of one’s dusky-hued constituents.  Bark and be everything the political foe on the left and, worse still, in one’s own Party says one is.  Bark and stand down at the next election.  Bark and be yesterday’s mutt.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Thu, 18 Nov 2010 13:27 | #

Leon,

Final value.  You know.

The discussion between Neo and Notus has been about that, and about Neo’s unwillingness to come forward with his.  As Notus said:

... just as all symbolic reasoning must begin with some axioms so must all philosophical reasoning begin with some properly basic metaphysical statements.  It is the rational man who lays out everything on the table - for the consideration of others - and from there develops his thinking in a consistent manner, leaving nothing hidden behind the Nietzschean cloak.

I have explained in my comment of November 17, 2010, 01:59 PM what is “the irreducible core of my philosophical stand, such as it is, and of my politics.”

I don’t mind in the least if that is criticised.  But I would prefer that critics do me the courtesy of stating their own bottom line.  CC appears to agree.


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Posted by Jimmy Marr on Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:28 | #

GW,

I don’t mind in the least if that is criticised.  But I would prefer that critics do me the courtesy of stating their own bottom line.  CC appears to agree.

Yes, of course. Thank God for brave souls like you and CC, but inasmuch as your final value is indistinguishable from pacifism, potential critics are put at risk by the necessity of publicly postulating its antithesis.

Your position imposes the invisible requirement that they levitate as they deflate in arising to undertake the unifying dismemberment of murderous pacifism, while you are safely ensconced in the densely covered high ground of moral suburbia.

At this point in time a bottom line antithesis is best formulated by means of literary device and suggestive piping.


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Posted by Desmond Jones on Thu, 18 Nov 2010 23:13 | #

Here’s the rest, Desmond.

And very well written, although in a different style than you currently use, it is too, sir.  Do you think as opinion changes writing styles tend to change?


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Posted by Guessedworker on Thu, 18 Nov 2010 23:57 | #

That’s the inadequate and unpublishable novelist in me, Desmond.

Do you think as opinion changes writing styles tend to change?

Not change really, more excavation possible perhaps.  This piece about the political traction of progressive thinking:

http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/on_traction_and_a_farewell_to_a_political_friend/

... was the turning point, and also signalled a change in the function of the blog from engine of conversion to engine of exploration.

Jimmy,

Pacifism?  You’ve got to have been smoking something, mate.


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Posted by Jimmy Marr on Fri, 19 Nov 2010 00:24 | #

You’ve got to have been smoking something, mate.

Of course I have, GW, and I admitted it from the outset.

What the heck did you think I meant by “suggestive piping”, Ceòl Beag?


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Posted by Grimoire on Fri, 19 Nov 2010 05:52 | #

CC:
        Perhaps I get it, perhaps not. What I do know is that I can allot so much time for serious effort… towards achieving an effect, that will with other efforts, bring the goal into clear view.

And then I have time to waste, productively. Time to reconnoiter and develop an all-round sense of the field. Time I would rather waste answering stupidly worded queries like your own…than write articles for people who have consciously chosen to refit the effectively useless.

I see your point. What you do not understand is the benefit in refuting self-serving English “ontology” , is very small. What you can see for yourself, but have perhaps not understood, is that the English are (in the platonic sense) as a mass, genetically stupid purveyors of hot air and pretentious moral imperatives. The stubbornness with which they cling to stupidity and the oblivious disregard they exhibit towards the hollow reverberation that emits when the English moral sanctity is sounded - is only outmatched by the stubbornness to which they will cling to a common goal, and the obliviousness to hardship and sacrifice they exhibit in achieving it, regardless the means.

Such are the accretions of History. The English have no innate idea of common cause with other Europeans, except as repositories of advantage, or serviceable technique and ideas. 
Things are changing however, in ways you do not sense. If you think I need a manner of GW’s permission to mount a soapbox here….you are right. I am not Anglo-Saxon, English or CommonWealth subject. I am German. We laugh with scorn at English or Americans lecturing us in Nationalism or Racial survival. I extend the same courtesy I expect.

I’m not interested in helping MR become a clearinghouse for spiritual ideas of the international Anglo front, nor a vessel for the technique we have fashioned in Europe. The muddle here exists because it does.
MR is changing.., becoming aware. Perhaps not fast enough for you. I share your frustration….but not your customary ignorance.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:28 | #

Grimoire,

You have yourself missed the point in a snit of self-righteousness worthy of the English whom you condemn for same.  GW’s ontology is more plastic than he would no doubt wish it to be.  And this cannot be elided by his implicit rhetorical insistence that the nature of the English (their ontology) can be promiscuously applied to the rest of the European peoples.  The English are a European people, and thus share something essential in common with other European peoples, yet there are also differences between the English and other European peoples.  A true application of ontology to the problem at hand, that is the earnest and honest search for the true natures of the various European peoples, can and should be conducted whether the English and their obscurantist advocates like it or not.  Each European people can thus have an ontological nationalism of its own befitting its nature as the expression of its nature.  The English, whether they like it or not, will have to become accommodated to that fact.  And in the process, whatever excesses they may be inclined to manifest will be reined in - whether they like it or not.  That is the task and goal which you can and should contribute to.  Convincing the English, or gaining an admission from them as to the truth of what I suspect they already know yet will not openly proclaim, is hardly necessary. 

But why should you do that here at MR?  Well, there is no other medium available of this quality that will give you the opportunity.  You have been handed a serviceable soapbox, the best available at this time.  Step up.


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Posted by Leon Haller on Fri, 19 Nov 2010 13:29 | #

Perhaps this comment answers you in part.

Posted by Leon Haller on November 16, 2010, 12:12 PM | #

This is how life is for most people.  It used to be physically exhausting, dangerous, disease-ridden, destitute.  Somewhere in modernity’s struggle to do away with all that the relation between citizen and state was mislaid, and into the void slithered the Jewish niche-fillers and the greedy bankers and so on.  They are not where we, as dissidents and lovers of our people, have to take aim politically.  Rather, we have to find incentives for re-engagement that touch real lives.  And that’s not easy. (GW)

But the incentives can be positive or negative (or both at different times). The question we face is, what type of racial nationalism should we promote: that of love, or fear?

On the one hand, our people (no, peoples - an important distinction - the ethnies collectively making up the race) have been, over the past half-century or more, deracinated, and dispossessed of their cultural heritages (at least as public matters), and, at accelerating rates, their liberty, property/wealth, and ethnocultural control of territory and government. The British people have had their sense of British peoplehood hollowed out, to the point where being British no longer conveys the same sense of ethnic group belonging and militant affiliations that it would have at any time over several centuries (at least, the Elizabethan period through WW2 and into the 50s).

Clearly, there is a need to recover and promulgate a renewed sense of Britishness, and attendant national pride, with an open and appropriate recognition that any ethnoculture arises from a genetic/racial foundation, yours/ours being white. Thus, interethnic cultural/national assimilation is possible with small numbers, but interracial cultural/national assimilation is impossible.

This would be a positive white/British nationalism. It would express itself in concerns with building up a renewed British (or sub-British; English) ethnic pride, and with infusing that pride with a militant sense of belonging to a great and worthy people. I believe this would necessarily be a backward-looking, conservative sort of nationalism, the kind that tries to conjure up an unbroken line of tradition extending back into the primordial ethnic mists, and as a cultural reactionary, I would applaud it.

Alternatively, those of a more revolutionary cast could seek to develop a forward-looking, but still positive, nationalism, one which might posit an ideal British type (in the manner of the Nazis’ Model Aryan, or the New Soviet Man), and then seek to persuade current citizens of the desirability of refashioning existing society so as to realize this type more fully and extensively.

On the other hand, we could promote a more negative nationalism, based on consuming dislike or fear of group competitors or antagonists (certainly the more common psychological underpinnings of nationalist movements in history). Underlying this strategy would be a frank recognition of the degenerate state of the British, evidenced not least in their lack of racial/national pride, as well as of the ‘race against time’ aspect vis a vis the ongoing immigration invasion and territorial (and political) displacement.

This strategy would appeal not to any ‘airy-fairy’ traditionalism or, conversely, New Ontology, but simply to the base instincts of the masses for security and prosperity; in a word, for much derided physical comforts. It would involve warning our people of the hardships they and their children will face if we continue down our current anti-racist, open immigrationist path. In other words, it would center not on cultural renewal or national pride (let alone the intellectual resolution of the existential problems of modernity and its still-aborning progeny), but simple fear of a dark future.

I favor the latter approach. Fear is a greater motivator than greed ,and much more so than love.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Fri, 19 Nov 2010 14:49 | #

the earnest and honest search for the true natures of the various European peoples

None is needed, CC.  It’s just a question of knowing how to find and then communicate the single moment in which these natures express, since they express over evolutionary time.  I am completely convinced that Grim is well aware of the expression itself, and could, if he wished, make a valuable contribution to its communication.

The difficulty of such a communication - that is, an investigation from the ground of intellect - is captured most persuasively in the difficulty generally ascribed to Sein und Zeit.  But, then, the difficulty of a synthetic and direct investigation is plainly apparent in the many negative references on this thread to that which you yourself describe as obscurantism.

There is certainly some virtue in taking the contrasting route, which is to bring out the dissonance, ontologically speaking, inherent in the way our betters mean us to be.  Now that’s inauthenticity!


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Posted by Guessedworker on Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:27 | #

Leon,

Your comment, while interesting in its own right, is not an answer to the question “What is your final value?”  The answer can’t be “What would work best”, since one can still ask the question why.  What is it, for you, that answers all questions and is still there, a self-evident truth, when they’ve run out?


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Posted by pug on Fri, 19 Nov 2010 17:38 | #

Guessedworker, if you are so sure your message hits exactly at home, why not have at it here?


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Posted by Guessedworker on Fri, 19 Nov 2010 18:35 | #

Pug,

That thread looks to have been covered by our side rather well.  No help needed.

But it is vexing to see so many declaring that they don’t care whether their own people become a minority or not ... don’t define themselves by skin colour, etc.  This nihilism is the true gift of liberalism, and what we want, when we talk about a philosophical challenge from our perspective, is precisely a burning-out of this attitude.  That isn’t accomplished by direct contact with the macro-ideas themselves.  But through the process of carry-down they condition public values, attitudes, discourse, and politics, so thoughts like “who cares?” become as inadmissable as claims to an Aryan supremacism are today.

At present, because we are all contained within this marxised thought-world, nihilistic attitudes rise like damp in a derelict building, and we can never dry the place out by individual argument alone.  Something more systemic needs to be done.


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Posted by pug on Fri, 19 Nov 2010 19:02 | #

Guessedworker,

That’s exactly what I had in mind, and you usually pretend it isn’t so to a fault. It won’t—it can’t—be an essay or a convoluted argument that undoes the dispensation. You believe that the English believe in quality before quantity whereas the English—like most Europeans—believe in quantity before quality (and they feel especially content if it’s—unlike honester dictatorships—camouflaged as coming from diverse factions), and you are unable to grasp that you are very clearly having a ridiculous, over-romanticised version of your kith and kin. There is no “cute” way around wresting control out of the current media or government for stopping and reverting what is being done, or spreading your philosophical coup d’état in any noticeable form. Probably not even after the upcoming economic meltdown.

That said, are you or anyone here interested in Frank Ellis’s monograph? I could scan it and inconspicuously place a link around, as it should help bolster arguments against political correctness in online debates.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:44 | #

GW,

This is what I meant by your “obscurantism”:

And this cannot be elided by his implicit rhetorical insistence that the nature of the English (their ontology) can be promiscuously applied to the rest of the European peoples.

Other European peoples are not as individualistic, nor as bourgeois in their psychological predilections as the English.  Yet to hear you tell it, one would be led to believe that were the case.  Most will never experience Dasein, and those who do only for vanishingly rare instances.  Inculcation to a literary approximation of said which resonates with racial consciousness will then have to do.  You are no stranger to doing just that.  And in your literary rendering of what you say one would experience via Dasein you paint the various European peoples as being more “English” than they in fact are.  This is consciously or unconsciously an attempt on your part to fashion at least the denizens of the “Anglosphere” as an extended phenotype of the English, and you would I assume like to see this accomplished in Western Europe as well.  I take it you won’t deny the charge.  Not that I object to that in principle, so long as it is sufficient to achieve racial preservation.  But it would be nice to see all the cards face up on the table top.

In reference to niggers and their extended-phenotypes you write:

the way our betters mean us to be.

It needn’t be said by me what the old Brownshirts of the NSDAP would do with that assortment of human garbage.  How appropriate that would be, how un-English.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:47 | #

pug,

It is ideological revolution which is conducted at street level.  Ideational revolution is conducted in the minds of men of intellectual ability.  Accordingly, for the last sixty years the dispensation has been for individual liberty to be the most powerful argument on the right of liberalism, and collective liberty through equality on the left, both of which arguments have undergone much development, substantially orchestrated by Jewish intellectuals.  Nationalism, as a general systemic competitor to liberalism, has to develop truths which can compete effectively in this market-place.

Street-level political work is not hung up waiting for this to occur.  But it must occur if liberalism as the source of our values, attitudes, discourse and politics is to be retired, and nationalism is not to be the perennial rat on the race.


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Posted by pug on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 00:29 | #

The majority of intellectuals that prance for race-replacement—or just the majority of intellectuals, punctum—are currently-unconvinceable tools, liars or priests who will automatically jump ship or suffer the consequences if victory is in our hands, and not before. I.e. We have no market-place to compete on.

Dolfy—himself an ontologist (as I understand it, insofar as he references German being for the sake of being), how does that make you feel?—noted that it was not intellectuals who had given him and his fellows the courage to win his revolution, but farmers and workers.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 00:35 | #

CC,

Other European peoples are not as individualistic, nor as bourgeois in their psychological predilections as the English.

Let’s speak only of the northern family.  Do you regard the Dutch and the Flemish, the Danes, the Norwegians and lowland Scots as innately less individualistic than the English - and markedly so?  Innately, mind.  Don’t drag the distortion of political culture into your ruminations.  In fact, make your comparisons seventy years into the past, or a hundred even.  Take post-war neoliberalism out of the equation entirely.

I must say, these groups have never struck me as particularly collectivist, never mind romantically so.  Neither would I say that, of the more collectivist-oriented, the Swedes and Welsh, and perhaps even the Germans of the north are given to the same yearnings as the broader swathe of German people, the Irish perhaps, the Poles and Czechs, the Austrians, the French north of the line.  I don’t know where one would rank the Swiss-Germans.

If one can generalise in this area at all, it is only possible to do so with a bow in the direction of some distinctly fuzzy edges.

Most will never experience Dasein, and those who do only for vanishingly rare instances.

Of course not.  There is no illusion about that.

Inculcation to a literary approximation of said which resonates with racial consciousness will then have to do.

This is a question for the water-carriers.  Today there is no general theory, no water to carry, and so no water carriers.  There is no need to telescope this process.  It has its natural course to run.  If there is to be no general theory, there will be none of the other.

And in your literary rendering of what you say one would experience via Dasein you paint the various European peoples as being more “English” than they in fact are.

Possibly so.  But I don’t write everything that is in my head, and it is perfectly clear that the making of being, which is what organic life does (I’m not a faithist, remember), is particularised by life form, by species, by population, by individual.

This is consciously or unconsciously an attempt on your part to fashion at least the denizens of the “Anglosphere” as an extended phenotype of the English, and you would I assume like to see this accomplished in Western Europe as well.

The axis is being <> becoming.  The avowedly romantic collectivists seem to like walking towards the horizon to meet their new selves.  So you may be right.  But at the moment that’s the only version available to any of us, and I think the realists, at least, would prefer an alternative.


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Posted by Guessedworker on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 00:50 | #

pug,

We have no market-place to compete on.

Of course we do.  IQ 124 is the gateway to processing abstract thought.  In theory, the smart fraction as a whole is what I am talking about.

Dolfy—himself an ontologist (as I understand it, insofar as he references German being for the sake of being), how does that make you feel?—noted that it was not intellectuals who had given him and his fellows the courage to win his revolution, but farmers and workers.

Political activists like the gentleman you reference - even ones that write shockingly bad books - are like instrumental soloists in the classical tradition.  They get the billing.  They sell the tickets.  They get the ovation.  But they don’t write the music.


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Posted by Captainchaos on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 02:12 | #

The negrification of the English is apparently a fait accompli:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnjW9tnkWvU


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Posted by Dan Dare on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 04:01 | #

Sad but all too true, Cap’n. But it’s really nothing new, baleful cultural influences have been making their way across the Atlantic ever since Lend-Lease lent us all those jitterbuggin’ darkies, the ones who single-handedly defeated the Luftwaffe.

I mean, just look at this for example. The British public had become hopelessly addicted to such decadence even before the advent of coloured television.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zj6o_DZfSw

Not to mention the blatant lack of racial hygiene on display. We can’t say we weren’t warned.


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Posted by Desmond Jones on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 08:06 | #

Let’s speak only of the northern family.  Do you regard the Dutch and the Flemish, the Danes, the Norwegians and lowland Scots as innately less individualistic than the English - and markedly so?  Innately, mind.  Don’t drag the distortion of political culture into your ruminations.  In fact, make your comparisons seventy years into the past, or a hundred even.  Take post-war neoliberalism out of the equation entirely.

The Lowland Scots are Anglo-Saxons and were speaking English while the English were speaking French, so it’s not really a valid comparison. However an example might be the Voertrekker Dutch 12,000 of whom migrated away from the Cape to seek a territory free of English governance. The English imposed Ordinance 50 (1828) ‘which gave Coloureds a degree of equality with the white population that had been previously denied.’

Moreover the theory is based upon a culture/gene co-evolution which suggests that collectivism evolved in some ecological niches, rich in infectious diseases and proved adaptive in dealing with pathogen prevalence. Collectivism, then, is not a in-group response to the Other but a product of the reproductive differential (i.e. the individual) who left more offspring who were less susceptible to the prevalence of affective disorders.


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Posted by Leon Haller on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:47 | #

Leon,

Your comment, while interesting in its own right, is not an answer to the question “What is your final value?” The answer can’t be “What would work best”, since one can still ask the question why.  What is it, for you, that answers all questions and is still there, a self-evident truth, when they’ve run out? (GW)


Very hard to answer. Logic and math of course, but final?

Physical pain, and its avoidance. Orwell’s Room 101 (if that’s the right number).

Though, of course, come to think of it, that’s not exactly true, as there are causes for which I might be willing to accept pain. My ultimate value would be ethics, doing that which God (if He exists) would consider morally right.

If you are speaking politically, then my ultimate value is the biological perpetuity of the (pure) white race, but only because I believe that the maintenance of racial purity is the precondition of the survival of Western Civ, which I wish to preserve as a good in itself.

If whites were degenerate losers, with no evolutionary/progressive or cultural renewal possibilities, then I would be a racialist only out of personal security and economic prosperity concerns (and intellectual interest).


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Posted by MOB on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 15:56 | #

This morning I chanced to read this item at Kevin Strom’s website, and I watched the Pierce youtube video cited there.  And this reminded me of something I saved while clearing out old Final Conflict files.  Here are all three (excuse the length).

MOB

http://nationalvanguard.org/2010/11/william-pierce-on-media-exploitation-of-children/#comment-498

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ltQ9jxM2Y4

FC January 2005

#FEEDBACK: THE FAILING STATE OF ENGLAND AND EUROPE

>England and English society now projects an image of prostrate, pitiful helplessness. For half my life, I clung to the desire to visit England, the home of my father’s people, of whom I had reason to be proud. But, no more.>

Dear FC:  I, too, recently returned from a visit to Europe. My trip was centered in Southern England and London, and northern France, with a long weekend in Germany. I was APPALLED at the digusting nature of what once was “Merry Olde England,” and the cavalier manner in which France seems totally desirious of bringing Jean Raspail’s novellic treatment of the ‘muddying of the waters’ of the race issue in France, to full and ominous completion.

EVERYWHERE I went, I saw less of Europe and FAR too much of Africa, the Near East, and India. I was literally sick to my stomach to walk streets and places with Saint’ names, the Name of the Cross, and Emblems of Christian Europe, overrun with people who have NO BUSINESS being there! What horrors have transpired in twenty years, that I NEVER would have believed possible!

I saw pagan peoples, STUPID peoples, disgusting remnants of the pallid dogma of colonial egalitarianism now replacing the Gospel of Christendom, teeming on the shores of lands once consecrated by Bishops, Martyrs, Evangelists, etc. for ‘the white Christ,’ and for Adamic/European MAN. The lands I thought were immune to the ‘trash culture’ that IS no culture here in the US, are turning RAPIDLY into mere catacombs, solely to house the vermin that have decscended on those shores of the ‘homeland.’

Some vignettes:

In Chartres, in front of the greatest work of ART and Piety, French boiz were skateboarding (!) - Loudly and repeatedly, in the courtyard of a (some say, the greatest) Shrine of Gothic Christendom! While nearby, some strumpet of a white French girl was busily ingesting the tongue of some perpetually-randy resident of the Niger, whose ‘dreads’ were almost as disgusting as the ease with which he was virtually raping the flower of European womanhood!

In Paris, the only word that came to mind (and on the soles of my shoes more than once!) was ‘merdre.’ The offensive BROWN effluvient of canine defecation was visually present in the cocksure, struttin,’ ghetto-wearin’ antics of ‘boiz n the hood’ that could have been in DC, Chicago, or any other negro-dominated town in the USA. What was even more disgusting was that they were speaking FRENCH. Again, some black BUCK was mawling a not too attractive but otherwise white Parisian girl on the bus, while their effeminate Male friend was animatedly rounding out this ‘trio of diversity.’ And I had to sit next to them - ugh! In leaving, the ubiquitous ‘pants around the buttcrack’ and the ‘struttin’ of the GHET-TOE was there in ample measure in the person of this savage. I wanted to scream, “Do you really want to descend to the depths of moral and racial depravity, you French WHORE?” But I knew they were too young, and too indoctrinated to either understand or care. Besides, I don’t have the French vocabulary…

Alighting at King’s Cross station (I wanted to go to Cambridge) I walked one of the longest blocks I have ever walked, past shop after shop of the IDOLS of Indian pagan deities, and a street that should have been in Calcutta, rather than in London! Such a teeming mass of black once-Aryan humanity, with the stench of incense to pagan idols, unwashed humanity, garish colors of tasteless saris and male clothing on display, and nowhere another Anglo in sight! I thought, “This is London?” HELL, NO!

Hoping for better, I arrived in Cambridge, only to feel as though I was on a campus in California, where over 50% of the students are/were of Asian derivation!?!? Surely these are not Englishmen? Refusing vocally then, to pay a “Charge” of 4.50 Pounds to pray in King’s College Chapel, (What cheek!) I instead found a nearby C of E church open & deserted, that had been founded in 1450. No one else ventured into the chapel while I was there to pray for the soul of Britain, yet students were all around on the street, and the images of noble education so redolently portrayed in “Brideshead Revisited” were gone- gone forever, and it seemed as though the YOUTH WANT to be ‘pseudo-Bolsheviks’ instead of the cream of the intellectual crop of England’s future. Returning to the Shopping area, I curiously saw a “Borders” bookstore (one chain that is common in the USA) next to a WSSmith, and ventured in, only to leave in disgust some ten minutes later, as the tasteless (ALL YOUNG) workstaff looked as though they had slept in their clothes the night before, and none of them seemed to have any idea of what proper hair combing techniques were, while some ‘jungle music’  blared out of the radio at every floor and in every department, even in children’s and religion! I did buy some Enid Blyton books for my children, to read to them of what England ONCE was, however.

Berlin was a slightly brighter spot, in that there were far fewer “non-Euros” and more “echt Germans.” A lunch at one of the local restuarants in Berlin I love, restored my hopes that somewhere in Europe, there remains a ‘racial concensus,’ but going to the Opera that night, the neo-pseudo psychological trash that masquerades as ‘dramatic staging’ made me realize there is something fundamentally SICK in the soul of all Europe, and the attendant lack of race consciousness, the rise of legitimacy of homosex and all the other attendant ills of a dying society, were only corroboration that our task is clear—this culture must be rooted out, and the perpetrators of such culture must be removed—forever. When tabloids make a mess out of Harry wearing a costume, for fear that ‘someone will be offended’ (Gee, I wonder who?) while the entire importation of “International Imperialist non-Culture” (for while it may have originated in the USA, this ‘youth culture’ is nothing indigenously American, only as it has Jewish hate, and black ghetto subversion as it’s two pillars of non-taste) to once cultural leaders such as Britain, France, and Germany utters nary a whisper, this shows that there is no other option—this is a war for the future of our race, our religion, and our planet. It is time to get to work!

By the by, I doubt I will EVER visit Europe again. Why go there, only to find the detritus of MTV and Ghet-toe trash that I can observe with greater ease and equal measures of disgust here at home? We have just as hard (or harder) task in the US!

Xx X
O P
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633

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 18:41 | #

Mob,

The Jewish media has drawn fire recently. Perhaps someone was not entertained by Burlesque.


634

Posted by pug on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 20:32 | #

Of course we do.  IQ 124 is the gateway to processing abstract thought.  In theory, the smart fraction as a whole is what I am talking about. — Guessedworker

Intellectuals are largely dedicated system tools, and their idiotic, anti-insightful drivel they output as means of augmenting their social status within a system a large part of the problem. Which is why they tend to get purged when the time for a reset comes. You can conceivably pummel a left-liberal to death before answering a simple question like I posited here, IQ >124 or not.

I’d suggest you first read this article. In short, a high IQ is very effective for solving novel problems (in engineering, maths, language, and so on) and will therefore tend to be employed in other domains. However, a cognitive strategy that is useful for dealing with novelties in a narrow or closed system is an impediment when confronting longstanding social and psychological challenges that are too complex for this approach and for which mankind has evolved solutions over thousands of years of practice. The result is that a high IQ elite may not only err but err systematically, and by doing so bring about catastrophic social policy. The tendency is almost always towards groupthink and trite utopianism, and are expected to internalise whatever Dreampolitik nation-wrecking jews—who do their thinking for them, and generate multiple versions towards the same pro-jewish end to mimic intellectual diversity and availability of own choice—meddlingly contrive. Thus, considering the aggregate from which good individuals may come, it is probably for the best to regrettably eschew their services until they are under our physical and legal, and later ideational custody. Ideas should probably be kept simple and non-verbose for maximum penetration, not for a >124 IQ circle-jerk.

Then I’d suggest you read this booklet available online, The Fate of Empires by Sir John Glubb. In it he puts forward the thesis that all great empires go through the same cycle, which includes an expansive phase, a affluent phase, and a decadent phase. Glubb pegs the average life expectancy of an empire at approximately 250 years. His argument is that wealth and affluence cause decadence and decline, and that all sufficiently successful societies must succumb to the deleterious effects of excess wealth. Form of government has no effect on this process, and he brings up examples to illustrate this. The period of decline is marked by a dominant spirit of intellectualism. Clever-sillies who have never known hardship and who take their current level of wealth and comfort for granted attempt to undermine the cultural and racial pillars that once gave their society strength and stability, because the pillars are seen as repressive, obsolete relics of the less refined past. They see themselves as having grown past such primitive practices, rather than simply insulated from the forces that make them necessary.

The sum-up in the book itself:

Since considerable undue wealth, respect, and lifetime is still accorded to intellectuals, they are bound to be unconvinced by reality, as long as they don’t stand to immediately gain from it, monetarily, socially or otherwise, and are somewhat physically insulated from it, too. I have no idea why you believe differently.

Political activists like the gentleman you reference - even ones that write shockingly bad books - are like instrumental soloists in the classical tradition.  They get the billing.  They sell the tickets.  They get the ovation.  But they don’t write the music. — Guessedworker

Problem: I doubt there’s any ethnonationalist idea you’ve laid out that can’t be summed up—ya know, tergiversation-free, if you’ll permit my slight ennui—with the same aphorism as one could use for something that the loathed one had once orated or written. Which is neither good nor bad, just accurate and possibly gnawing at your heart and generating delicious English tears.


635

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:29 | #

The result is that a high IQ elite may not only err but err systematically…towards groupthink…and internalize…whatever Dreampolitik…nation-wrecking Jews…meddlingly contrive.

Thank you pug. I’ve long been dismayed by this process. I think we should coin a phrase for it.

I nominate Bowerian Rennefication, but since you have illuminated it, and NeoNietzsche regularly demonstrates it, I suppose we should also consider NeoRepugnance.

I’m open to other suggestions as long as they respect of my IQ, of 123.


636

Posted by pug on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:45 | #

NeoRepugnance it is, I couldn’t have christened it better myself. The childless “superhuman” ... It’d be pretty much impossible to hurt your hand punching his mug.


637

Posted by Dan Dare on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:57 | #

Still, Glubb Pasha’s imperial life cycle of 250 years on average isn’t too bad an innings all things considered. Not mentioning any names but some empires barely make it into double figures. I wonder how many runs the United States will put on the board before the inevitable denouement. Counting from 1945 will it make its century?


638

Posted by pug on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 22:32 | #

Dan, I doubt the U.S. could ever get any lower than this.


639

Posted by Desmond Jones on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 22:50 | #

Counting from 1945

The rudiments of American Imperialism, the Louisiana Purchase and for the English, as a nation, Elizabethan plantations in Ireland? Sounds fair.


640

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Sat, 20 Nov 2010 22:54 | #

I doubt the U.S. could ever get any lower than this.

And never could we enunciate it as sumptuously. I haven’t heard an English accent this posh since Poles of Helios.


641

Posted by Guessedworker on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 01:08 | #

Leon,

My ultimate value would be ethics, doing that which God (if He exists) would consider morally right.

So your final value is living the word of the Christian God.  In your higher emotional system you have a powerful disposition towards faith.  But is this an irreducible value?  What happens if some latter-day Plato comes along and demonstrates that, in the line of ascent from raw being, ethics stand several steps above the primordial ground?  Where is the Christian God now?  Is He the source or is He with you personally, interested in your behaviour?  Both?  Why, then, do you select the Behavioural Overseer but not the Almighty Creator?  Is behaviour a final value or is being?  And, then, if it is really being, what can that mean to you?  How can faith connect to it?  Is it really just an idea?

pug,

You are telling me you don’t want to know how ideas enter the public discourse.


642

Posted by pug on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 01:25 | #

Guessedworker,

Well, feel free to enlighten me.


643

Posted by Guessedworker on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 01:32 | #

Where did the little corporal obtain his ideas?


644

Posted by pug on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 02:15 | #

Observing reality, reading, getting instructed by peers.


645

Posted by Desmond Jones on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 03:43 | #

Where did the little corporal obtain his ideas?

If we take him at his word from the Christ story.

“I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord..”

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

  -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)


646

Posted by Desmond Jones on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 03:56 | #

It’s also interesting to note his emphasis upon the individual. Paramount to the efeectiveness and sustenance of NS, according to Hitler, is the recognition, by the masses, that everyting originates with the individual.

Thus at the origin of the material civilization which flourishes today we always see individual persons. They supplement one another and one of them bases his work on that of the other. The same is true in regard to the practical application of those inventions and discoveries. For all the various methods of production are in their turn inventions also and consequently dependent on the creative faculty of the individual. Even the purely theoretical work, which cannot be measured by a definite rule and is preliminary to all subsequent technical discoveries, is exclusively the product of the individual brain. The broad masses do not invent, nor does the majority organize or think; but always and in every case the individual man, the person.


647

Posted by Captainchaos on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 06:26 | #

Those who value the genetic continuity of their race as life’s ultimate interest yet identify with those who fought against National Socialist Germany are put in an unenviable position.  For if NS Germany had triumphed the genetic continuity of the race would be assured.  Those they identify with effectively fought for the genocide of their race.


648

Posted by Dan Dare on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 06:45 | #

Let it not be forgotten, Cap’n, that at the time in question many people (including your erstwhile hero) considered that many people who we now consider to be full members of the ‘white’ race, including Poles, Czechs, Ukranians,  Russians and other Untermenschen were only resources to be exploited and, when that were no longer possible, to be done away with.


649

Posted by Captainchaos on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 07:00 | #

resources to be exploited and, when that were no longer possible, to be done away with.

Any substantial evidence to offer that General Plan Ost is not as imaginary as the “gas chambers” at Auschwitz?


650

Posted by Dan Dare on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 07:34 | #

We don’t need to stand upon Generalplan Ost Cap’n, the actual documented behaviour of Krauts vis-a-vis Slavs is otherwise quite well established.

Of course feel free to put forward evidence to the contrary.

Should we then mention the documented proposals for dealing with fellow Nordics, the Inselaffen, that were attendant upon a successful invasion of the British Isles? But then I believe we have discussed that on more than one occasion already.

Seems a rum way to be going about ensuring the genetic continuity of the race, if you ask me.


651

Posted by Leon Haller on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 13:49 | #

The period of decline is marked by a dominant spirit of intellectualism. Clever-sillies who have never known hardship and who take their current level of wealth and comfort for granted attempt to undermine the cultural and racial pillars that once gave their society strength and stability, because the pillars are seen as repressive, obsolete relics of the less refined past. They see themselves as having grown past such primitive practices, rather than simply insulated from the forces that make them necessary. (pug)

Excellent insight.


652

Posted by Leon Haller on Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:04 | #

So your final value is living the word of the Christian God.  In your higher emotional system you have a powerful disposition towards faith.  But is this an irreducible value?  What happens if some latter-day Plato comes along and demonstrates that, in the line of ascent from raw being, ethics stand several steps above the primordial ground?  Where is the Christian God now?  Is He the source or is He with you personally, interested in your behaviour?  Both?  Why, then, do you select the Behavioural Overseer but not the Almighty Creator?  Is behaviour a final value or is being?  And, then, if it is really being, what can that mean to you?  How can faith connect to it?  Is it really just an idea? (GW)


To quote our current Fearless Leader, I fear these questions are “way above my paygrade”.

Men do not have access to pure Being, that is, to God. We apprehend but do not comprehend. What matters then to a simple man like me is precisely behavior. I do not know Ultimately Reality, and not being Plato et al, that fact really doesn’t bother me. I simply wish to know how I’m supposed to act (morally). I believe behavior, not Truth, is the Christian’s main concern. “What would you have me do, O Lord?” implored the second most important figure in the history of the faith (Paul).

My main academic interest in applying the moral tenets of the Church to the secular political realm is to demonstrate that racial/national preservation, especially in its benign forms, like excluding non-white colonists from white polities, does not violate Christian ethics. (Surely you will admit that making that case would greatly aid our common political objectives.)


653

Posted by pug on Mon, 22 Nov 2010 02:16 | #

My main academic interest in applying the moral tenets of the Church to the secular political realm is to demonstrate that racial/national preservation, especially in its benign forms, like excluding non-white colonists from white polities, does not violate Christian ethics. — Leon

Well, historically, in Western lands, the Church has either controlled the government, been in tune with it or been controlled by it. Today, all 501(c)(3) churches are under government control in America, and preach acquiescence to White dispossession lest the preachers will have to get real jobs.

If you are actually serious about this, well, hop off to a library and research primary documents and publications of the Southern Baptists, who were formed for the express purpose of having a Church where White people would not have to worship with Negroes, and up till the 50s or so functioned in such a capacity. To the bottomline, they argued extensively that race-mixing was a sin tantamount to murder, because it destroyed what God created. Surely the same would stand for a demographic eclipse.


654

Posted by Leon Haller on Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:47 | #

Snarky comments about Christianity will get the West and its defenders nowhere. The faith will exist long after we at MR are all underground.


655

Posted by pug on Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:52 | #

Lacked any snark whatsoever towards Christianity, which is rather odd of me. The “real jobs” comment refers to their preaching the supremacy of diversity and worshipping Israel as moral values to their herd. Surely you don’t find academic feminists’ deconstruction of the evil White male patriarchy a worthwhile endeavour. The same stands for the traitors who effected a major change over their dogma overnight for 501(c)(3) status and political correctness.


656

Posted by Jimmy Marr on Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:54 | #

The faith will exist long after we at MR are all underground.

This is an apt description of memetic morbidity, but to be of optimal service to Judah, the Christians among us must will need to be maintained alive in a state of eternally lobotomized servitude.

For better or worse, this is easily accomplished in the world of make-believe.


657

Posted by Sam Davidson on Wed, 24 Nov 2010 03:29 | #

My main academic interest in applying the moral tenets of the Church to the secular political realm is to demonstrate that racial/national preservation, especially in its benign forms, like excluding non-white colonists from white polities, does not violate Christian ethics. (Surely you will admit that making that case would greatly aid our common political objectives.)

I encourage you in your efforts. When can we expect something to look at?


658

Posted by Luq on Wed, 27 Aug 2014 17:34 | #

there is no nation in the world immortal



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