Spencer: My conception of the ethnostate is imperialist - true ethno nationalism is a zero sum game.

Posted by DanielS on Wednesday, 10 January 2018 03:00.

My conception of the ethnostate is imperialist - true ethno nationalism is a zero sum game.

“My conception of the ethnostate is imperialist actually.” “True ethno nationalism is a zero sum game.” - Richard Spencer

Fortunately, Britain seems to be joining the revised TPP11; and the Visigrad Groups are holding their own as a geopolitical connection on the upper Silk Road, to provide an ethnonational bulwark against any Spencer/Duginesque imperial blob larp that would sprawl oblivious to profound heritage, Lisbon to Vladivastok, Vladivastok to Nova Scotia.

Richard Spencer: I’d agree that my conception of the ethnostate, writ large conception, is imperialist actually, in the sense that it is a larger bloc, it is a geopolitical bloc.

50:00 I don’t think ethnicity itself should be a dividing line. An intense ethno nationalism like ‘Finland for the Fins and the Czech republic for the Czechs, or whatever that is’, I don’t think that’s actually the way forward.

52:00: In terms of White I don’t think this is at all controversial - you know one once you see one.

55:20 The whole idea of the ethnostate is about avoiding conflict. It’s about creating - this is where my concept of the ethnostate might be slightly different than others. Some others might consider, say, Poland is an ethnostate. It’s a linguistic- religious ethnic community (only difference?) - my concept of the ethno state is a concept of the ethnostate writ large; it is a geopolitical bloc for the White race. The whole point of this is that there would be a continental wide safe space, for White people, and there’s not going to be conflict, there’s not going to be racial conflict or racial suspicion.

Israel is in a very tricky situation, due to its creation, due to its foreign policy, due to its mentality, but…

His colleague, Evan McClaren, “Executive Director of NPI,” puts forth a similar straw man, saying that “the Polish and Hungarian cavalry will not come to the rescue of White people.” This is an insulting reference to WWII era Nazi propaganda footage that fictitiously staged Polish cavalry going up against Nazi Panzer tanks; and again, nobody is saying that Poland and Hungary, let alone their “cavalry”, is going to come to the rescue alone. This is another straw man to disparage ethnonational sovereignty against Spencer’s misguided delusion of Russo/German imperialism.
The fact is that global conflict is never going to go away ...that’s one aspect of the ethno state, it must have nuclear weapons, it must have an army, it must be able to confront whether it be China, whether it be the Middle East, etc.  ...it can confront other blocs around the world, so that we aren’t going to be over-run by Chinese, we’re not going to be over-run by an Islamic invasion and so on…

And YKW Richard? They’ve already invaded and infiltrated, so have the blacks and Muslims.

Perhaps the fact that Britain seems to be joining the revised TPP11 and the Visigrad Groups are holding their own as a geopolitical connection on the upper Silk Road can provide an ethnonational bulwark against the Spencer/Dugin imperialist blob that would sprawl oblivious to profound heritage, Lisbon to Vladivastok, Vladivastok to Nova Scotia.

Zero sum game is a straw man…

Spencer says Poland can’t do it alone - a straw man because nobody is saying that (or should be saying that they can).

Trump’s Globalist Nationalism:

Spencer calls ethno nationalism a zero sum game -

People who like ethno nationalism probably wouldn’t dwell on that aspect but that is merely happy talk. That really is an expression of ethno nationalism, particularly with regard to neighboring countries - it is about competition, it is certainly not about civilizational nationalism or racial nationalism.

(Spencer tips is Molotov-Ribbentrop hand at this point)

One can see this in the ethnonationalism of western Ukrainians who seem to hate everyone and think everyone’s out to get them.

....to me, the Poles, the Germans, the Russians, everyone…but the fact is, and I think this is very good when we looked at globalism vs nationalism and we all felt like we are in the same boat and there wasn’t this zero sum competition where I, “as an American, want France to do poorly, I want Britain to do poorly” - it wasn’t like that at all, and it should make us rethink that nationalist globalist divide….the fact is that Donald Trump, wearing a Trump hat or a Trump T-shirt became a meme across Europe for a nationalist expression…  on the other hand you have the plucky nationalists, those people who are trying to reassert the sovereignty of the nation state itself and also to reassert their identities and cultures ...true ethno nationalims is, as we’ve seen in the 19th century, a zero sum game - if you are a French nationalist then your doing well is effectively bad for Germany and vice versa; German’s rise is effectively bad for you - it is a zero sum game - we win you lose, you win we lose ...people who like ethno nationalism probably wouldn’t dwell on that aspect, but that’s merely happy talk, particularly with regard to neighboring countries; it really is about competition.

A zero sum game is an imperialist /supremacist model (what I call right wing) - that’s a straw man of ethno nationalism and its true motive. Ethno-nationalism defined properly would provide for accountably delimited, manageable but sufficiently powerful units - manageable units which can then facilitate coordination of the whole regional powers, e.g. the region of Europe or Asia, etc.; which can then, in turn, coordinate between those regional interests.

Spencer is trying camouflage the quid pro quo; but tips his hand with condescending dismissal of Polish and European ethnonationalism, the anti western Ukraine bit - clues to his pro Russian Fed sentiment and neo-Molotov-Ribbentrop larp.

It is imperialism (e.g., Nazi imperialism), not nationalism, or even ethnonationalism, that caused the great wars.

8:03 Trump seems to be searching out a new foreign policy course. ... he seems to have a new rhetoric.

10:00 “The rocket man” (don’t disturb Russian puppet N Korea)

12:55 Spencer defends Venezuela ..we leave them alone (for Putin to look after).

He does criticize Saudi and defend Iran….

17:13: In sum, new realism, new nationalism is window dressing. Ethno nationalists can’t get their head around the fact that Estonia and Poland live within the shadow of America.”

Sure, it’s really hard to understand that we need alliances, powerful alliances, Richard.

...............................................

State of The Alt Right.

1:20 a pansy attempt at a cult of Richard Spencer personality..

2:30 so, I’m gonna just throw out a big question, what is the state of the altright?

Spencer answers:

We’re in a difficult position.. derives from hostility and open suppression, private entities, silicon valley… deplatforming from funding services web services…

....push back for being recognized - catching flack for flying over the target…but what doesn’t kill you (makes you stronger - Nietzsche)...

5:55 on the other hand we are experiencing a difficult time for internecine, intramural fights going on…

This needs to be talked about…

We need to give some people some tough love…some times the truth hurts.

8:00 Resistance in Poland..

11:05 I’m a public intellectual…we should not take sides in the second world war. (Really?)

13:20 I was disappointed with the foreign minister, who used this silly, baby boomer liberal language..this kind of stuff is stupid, ‘you’re becoming Americanist in the worst possible way.’

14:38 Within the right you are criticized more often for not embracing this petty nationalist mindset..whereas in mainstream outlets you are criticized as being a Nazi.

15:45 Poland cannot survive on its own (what country would or does?). It was recreated in 1919.

(It was re-established in 1919, upon Pilsudski’s audacious taking-back of the ancient Polish city of Poznan in culmination of 123 years struggle to take back its nationhood from imperialist Austria, Russia and Prussia.)

16:20 it exists now as a Nato state…

(There are some problems with petty nationalism, but thanks for your concern Richard. We’ll be ok without Russia’s help.)

17:58 ..in desperate need of a racial, Pan European consciousness.

18:37 The last thing I would support is some sort of German supremacy (that’s not exactly the problem - the problem is a combined German Russian imperialism.)

21:40 Spencer denounces cold war nostalgia and goes into the Duginesque critique of America - a “far far far greater threat than Russian nationalism… which seems extremely modest and reasonable in comparison to America.” These former Eastern bloc countries don’t get it (maybe you don’t get it, Richard, and that’s why you misconstrue ethnonationalism with imperialism). America is not going to be the savior of Poland; countries in the American sphere are subject to the worst aspects of America - immigration, homosexuality, feminism.

35:00 I will back down this time….(he had planned a visit to Poland but there were hints from high places that he was not welcome in Poland). I was visiting Europe, visiting Russia at least once a year and I will be back…

39:00 The opposition is scared, but that means we are culturally relevant when they are shutting us down.

42:00 Alt Right and optics ...

45:32 This moral signaling by denouncing people ....it is worth talking about the Swastika flag and Roman salute - its a double standard and bullshit compared to Marxist symbolism…

(Spencer and the Alt Right have this incessant bullshit line that the issues with Nazi Germany are surface matters of “optics” and conditioning, not that Nazi Germany was in large epistemological blunder).

Why can’t you admit that you got suckered by your friend, Mike Enoch, who started the Nazi salute thing too?

48:11 Look at how I dress ... I don’t need to engage in denunciations ...I don’t think we can get away from the optics debate..

52:00 We should be bad asses ...people can go too far on both sides, problem of over reacting.

53:00 Everybody was wrong

54:00 We need to step back… our movement needs to be a little shocking…

Nice try Richard, “hail Trump!”

.....hangout with Baked Alaska concludes:

2:17:16 Richard Spencer: It’s all well and good to talk about we just want our little countries, we just want our little Poland, that’s not going to cut it.

Get over it man. This straw-man. Who is saying that we just want our little Poland?

.........

Greg Johnson’s idea of the ethno state discussed with Tara McCarthy and Styxhexenhammer666.  Problems there too, his elitism is prone as well, but let’s focus on Spencer for now.

 



Comments:


1

Posted by Guessedworker on Wed, 10 Jan 2018 15:16 | #

Spencer is guilty of category error.  He is mistaking the nation, as the vessel of the interests of a people, with the economic interests of its corrupt and ambitious, Nietzschean elites.  Ethnic nationalism does not admit of sectional interests, but seeks to cohere all the interests of the folk, among which economic expansionism and executive self-aggrandisement do not feature.

It might help if he knew something about human nature.  It might also help if his historical reading did not commence at 1933 and end at 1939.


2

Posted by DanielS on Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:16 | #

I can basically agree, and that distortion perhaps comes about for his fancying himself Nietzschean.

While I understood what I meant to say by the prior form of this sentence, it is more clearly stated thus:

A zero sum game is an imperialist /supremacist model (what I call right wing) - that’s a straw man of ethno nationalism and its true motive. Ethno-nationalism defined properly would provide for accountably delimited, manageable but sufficiently powerful units - manageable units which can then facilitate coordination of the whole regional powers, e.g. the region of Europe or Asia, etc.; which can then, in turn, coordinate between those regional interests.


3

Posted by chauvinism on Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:35 | #

Polish chauvinism won’t unite whites either.


4

Posted by DanielS on Wed, 10 Jan 2018 17:52 | #

Nor will the German chauvinism of Carolyn’s friends - who always tried to accuse me of Polish chauavinism lol.

It is imperialism (e.g., Nazi imperialism) not nationalism, or even ethnonationalism, that caused the great wars.


5

Posted by Captainchaos on Wed, 10 Jan 2018 18:52 | #

Daniel, how come you deleted Kumiko the Jap’s post about that Sutherland guy?  Was it because she finally spurned your advances?


6

Posted by DanielS on Wed, 10 Jan 2018 19:05 | #

I didn’t delete it. It was an old post which I “stickied” upon the occasion of Sutherland’s death, it’s becoming topically relevant again as such.

The article is from 2015 and is still there in the archives - Sutherland continues a long tradition of expropriation of people from the land, 8 October 2015


7

Posted by DanielS on Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:24 | #

I’m still improving this sentence. The latest permutation:

A zero sum game is an imperialist /supremacist model (what I call right wing) - that’s a straw man of ethno nationalism and its true motive. Ethno-nationalism defined properly would provide for accountably delimited, manageable but sufficiently powerful units - manageable units which can then facilitate coordination of the whole regional powers, e.g. the region of Europe or Asia, etc.; which can then, in turn, coordinate between those regional interests.


8

Posted by Czech losses 30 Years War/ Versailles on Fri, 12 Jan 2018 04:09 | #

Speaking of Richard giving an arbitrary historical starting point and trivializing distinctions, such as that of the Czechs - “whatever that its.”

It is significant to note that Richard brings into question not only the legitimacy, but even the reality of the distinction - e.g. “the Czechs, whatever that is”  - a typical first step, politically, to doing away with these differences in reality:

I don’t think ethnicity itself should be a dividing line. An intense ethno nationalism like ‘Finland for the Fins and the Czech republic for the Czechs, or whatever that is’, I don’t think that’s actually the way forward.

One question that I put out there for historians, and I never got an answer from them:

When the Versailles treaty decided to put the Sudetenland under Czech control, was it taking into consideration not only vital strategic resource and barrier aspects necessary for Czech…

...but also taking into consideration Czech’s integrity given losses of territory, cultural artifacts, and most significantly, massive losses of Czech population - “whatever that is” - in the 30 Years war?

As I recall, there was a race replacement aspect, that the Czechs (Bohemians) sustained the worst losses of all in the Thirty Years War.

The Thirty Years’ War and why it Matters to Our Bohemian/Czech Genealogy:

This time also heralded the beginnings of an actual genocide against the Bohemian people as the Hapsburgs began the re-Catholicization of Bohemia. As Eleanor Ledbetter wrote in her 1919 pamphlet:

“But even then the struggle against Teutonic domination was an intense one, and by the end of the Thirty Years’ War, culture had succumbed to force, and the Bohemian people were crushed under the heel of the Hapsburg dynasty. The national leaders were all either executed or exiled, their rich and abundant literature was utterly destroyed, and the remnant of the people who were left for long years had not force enough to offer effective resistance to encroachment and suppression.”

[...]

When you realize the extent and depth of all the destruction of the Thirty Years’ War, it is no surprise that it weighs heavily on our present day abilities to trace our deepest Bohemian roots. So when you get to this period in your family history and genealogy be prepared for some challenges!

Aftermath

Before the war about 151,000 farmsteads existed in the Lands of the Bohemian Crown, while by the year 1648 only 50,000 remained. At the same time the number of inhabitants decreased from three million to only 800,000.[9]

The result of the 1620 battle brought two centuries of recatholicization of the Czech lands and the decline of the Czech-speaking aristocracy and elite as well as the Czech language (accompanied with the growing influence of German-speaking elites), a process that was slowed down by the Czech National Revival since the late 18th century. Czech nationalist historians and writers such as Alois Jirásek have referred to the 17th and 18th century in the Czech lands as the Dark Age.


9

Posted by Spencer: on last chance for kosher immigration on Sat, 13 Jan 2018 09:10 | #

Richard Spencer (7:55): “I would say that this is the last chance, this is the moment, for respectable, kosher, immigration reform to take place”...


One aspect of “kosher” immigration seems to be sentiments such as proposing that Florida be set aside for blacks, while actual natives, such as the Seminole, are not given a second thought.

Particularly as Amerindios tend to be indifferent to Jewish concerns, at times even hostile, the kosher view would apparently prefer to live beside blacks.

In his discussion of the ethnostate with Tara McCarthy and Beast 666 mentioned at the bottom of the main post: Greg Johnson also fails to consider this angle - that natives should be preferred as better warranted neighbors and allies as opposed to blacks.


10

Posted by DanielS on Sat, 13 Jan 2018 21:58 | #

Some matters to bring back to the table:

1) The idea that imperialism causes war and not nationalism.

That comes into question directly with a second re-consideration -

2) The idea that nationalism can be a non-zero sum game.

That imperialism can cause wars - wars of the widest and most destructive scale at that - is obvious. But that is not a trivial difference; it is a quantity that probably makes for a different quality - perhaps in its disposition toward sub-conflicts between nations.

It is also clear that nations, ethno-nations or otherwise, can instigate wars - markedly with regard to border disputes, territorial claims.

However, an imperial mindset can treat these conflicts cynically, as disputes between lesser peoples/nations (as the Ukrainian/Polish conflict, e.g. was viewed by the imperialist view of The Soviets and Nazis) to be exploited, rather than to be helped in non-zero sum negotiation by third parties, from a more perspicuous overview.

Perhaps it is getting cute, perhaps not, to try to re-define these border disputes not as wars (but as battles, skirmishes, some lesser term of conflict - inarticulate negotiation), and the cause of these conflicts as not being a problem of nationalism, but of an imperial mindset which sees the territorial disputes as non-negotiable and rather in an either/or, zero-sum sense: “Either you have Gdansk/Danzig all to your nation, or you don’t - it cannot be a neutral, shared territory as the Versailles Treaty designated-it.”

“Either you have L’viv or you don’t” in the case of the Ukrainian / Polish border dispute.

Now, I’m just using these as historical examples, not looking to re-negotiate their status now for heavens’ sake.

A zero-sum of ethnonatioalism can be applied to genetics as well - either you are of this ethnic group or you are not, and your kind is advanced to the next generation or it is not.

Perhaps the imperial perspective, in overseeing the quantity, is responsibly invoked as metacommunication of negotiation, i.e., for the purpose of seeing beyond scarcity, to get to persuasion and distribution, to maintain a balance of ethnonationalism as opposed to implementation of sheer force on the side of imperialism.

In order for ethnonationals to not be looked upon as the source of war, in fact to not be a source of wars (albeit of lesser scale and a catalyst for larger scale involvement) perhaps ethnonationals would be asked also to negotiate the maintenance of qualitative differences of people and territory as resources on that level of quantitative distribution.

It remains a fundamental and most important fact, however, that after dispute over borders (which can perhaps be re-framed and negoatiated in a non-zero sum sense) and with some reasonable presence and size, ethnonationalism is not basically, let alone necessarily, a zero-sum game.

* We’re focusing here on a negotiative disposition between European peoples.

Genetic distance (quantitative difference) should be invoked along with significant qualitative differences as a reason for non-negotiation on the minor, i.e. national scale, and in some cases more than others - with blacks there should be less tolerance of negotiation; the negotiation should be, you go there, with them in their nation, if that’s what you want to intermarry with; blacks have a biological hegemony in long prior evolution, that brigs to bear their pejorative qualities (e.g., aggression); while Mulattoes not only change European DNA significantly and bring those black patterns further to bear upon Whites, they do not even serve to stem the tide of blacks proper. With Jews and some groups housed within Islam, their qualitative differences and how they impact upon Europeans must be taken into consideration; i.e., negotiation is a highly dubious prospect, not only because they are connected with antagonistic cultures, even if apparently benign of their individual selves, but also because being so intermarried of themselves (cousins at least) that one relatively benign generation can beget a virulent and antagonistic (or irresponsibly indifferent) one in re-manifestation of the subsequent generation.


11

Posted by uh on Thu, 18 Jan 2018 08:07 | #

As it happens, Czech cities are very non-white. Africans all over Prague. People I can’t place all over Brno.

Serbia’s fine.



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